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So Keir, where did it all go wrong? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,254
edited 7:21AM in General
So Keir, where did it all go wrong? – politicalbetting.com

This polling from Ipsos lays out very clearly how quickly Sir Keir Starmer became unpopular when he became Prime Minister. My two takeaways is that

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,852
    First?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,884
    Who are these "power 64" that it looks bad to ?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,793
    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I can't say I haven't done similar, but holy fuck, time and place...

    Hegseth's reaction is as fucking stupid and shit as you'd expect. He's undermining the safety culture and is going to get people killed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,195
    edited 7:28AM
    algarkirk said:

    First?

    Yes, the first dip is mislabelled. The big problem in Summer 2024 that cost Starmer 35pp was not freebies or WFA but the Southport stabbings and aftermath which showed two tier Keir was more concerned about hurty words than the murders of little girls.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,112
    FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty for Norris for exceeding parts' limits.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cj038y0levyo


    On-topic: it went wrong with the Ming vase nonsense when facing an unpopular government that had been there for many years. Pretending the Conservatives were unnecessarily spending less because they're mean rather than because of economic constraints also wasn't terribly smart (but then, neither is hiking NI to fling it away on benefits while Defence gets promises but not funds).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,137
    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,852
    Nigelb said:

    Who are these "power 64" that it looks bad to ?

    Either an exciting new fascist group or else perhaps means bad to the 64th power, which is a very large number of badness.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 64,112
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Who are these "power 64" that it looks bad to ?

    Either an exciting new fascist group or else perhaps means bad to the 64th power, which is a very large number of badness.
    Not N64 retro-gaming fans?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,759
    Nigelb said:

    Who are these "power 64" that it looks bad to ?

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Who are these "power 64" that it looks bad to ?

    Either an exciting new fascist group or else perhaps means bad to the 64th power, which is a very large number of badness.
    Yah, fixed now.

    I'd like to say it is because I am on holiday but....
  • eekeek Posts: 34,567

    FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty for Norris for exceeding parts' limits.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cj038y0levyo


    On-topic: it went wrong with the Ming vase nonsense when facing an unpopular government that had been there for many years. Pretending the Conservatives were unnecessarily spending less because they're mean rather than because of economic constraints also wasn't terribly smart (but then, neither is hiking NI to fling it away on benefits while Defence gets promises but not funds).

    Mclaren are expecting new parts next weekend and again for the first race after the break so they are taking the hit now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,701
    ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    Yes.

    A reform of old age benefits which reworked them to be targeted at the actual poorest, would have been perfectly possible to sell to Labour MPs and the country.

    Put the whole lot in a blender, create something that uses taxation (means testing as a last resort) to do the clawback.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 28,058

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    Given it was Cameron who brought in the triple lock, I'm not sure that's true.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,567
    edited 7:38AM

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    I think it was the promise that isn't in the manifesto to not increase the taxes people see (VAT, employee NI, income tax). That was beyond stupid given the 4p in employee NI give away that had occurred in 2023/4.

    Either way very early on SKS and Reeves were found to not be good enough as they messed around at the edges rather than actually trying to fix things.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401

    Well


    Ugh.

    Thats at the level of the Argentine “gammon flag shaggers” who bang on about the Malvinas all the time.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,417
    edited 7:40AM
    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,378
    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,195
    edited 7:43AM
    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,567

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,567

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Burnham is both a politician and appears to be media savvy (quite possibly thanks to his wife - see also Cameron and Samatha)
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,418
    Maybe it's as simple as he wasn't suited to the role of Prime Minister and was much more suited to being Leader of the Opposition. With a bit more self-awareness maybe he could have understood this and planned an exit, even groomed a preferred successor.

    Its just like when people are promoted for being good at their current job, rather than because they'll be good at the next one
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401
    eek said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
    To be fair on crypto, it is also used by people trying to get out of places like Russia and China.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,567

    eek said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
    To be fair on crypto, it is also used by people trying to get out of places like Russia and China.
    bypassing the currency restrictions of those countries - so just a different version of the criminal facilitation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,884
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I can't say I haven't done similar, but holy fuck, time and place...

    Hegseth's reaction is as fucking stupid and shit as you'd expect. He's undermining the safety culture and is going to get people killed.
    It seems to have become a culture war touchstone, which likely means a lot more boundary pushing.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,676
    edited 7:54AM

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    Yes, they could (e) have and should have.

    But I no longer think it's only pensioners who disapproved of the WFA cuts. I noted recently that although working age people do tend to view pensioners as taking more than their fair share, they are still very supportive of measures that reduce death by natural causes for the elderly.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 617
    For sure Burnham is a more popular politician right now. However, he can do very little in the face of his dinosaur MPs who won't contemplate any of the cuts needed nor the tough line on immigration etc. Hence his honeymoon is likely to be rather short. Farage has pushed his luck and may not survive the coming denouement although his grifting surprises no-one - Starmer and the others grabbing a few cheap freebies was arguably worse for the hypocritical stench it left behind.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,803
    Yet Blair in his early days abolished both MIRAS and the married tax allowance, both very long-standing parts of our tax system with many benefeciaries. Tacking Winter Fuel Allowance went wrong surely because of the way it was handled, and the relative shortfall in political capital to start with, rather than because dealing with it was wrong in principle.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,852

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,789

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Boris Johnson stayed popular for a good two years in remarkably difficult circumstances, and could have remained popular for longer had he and his party not made a series of completely unforced errors (partygate, pinchergate). Rishi Sunak took over an unpopular Conservative Party and became unpopular by association, but I don't think any Conservative leader could have turned that particularly ship around. I don't think immediate unpoularity is quite as inevitable as we assume. Starmer was just utterly terrible at politics.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,684
    Farage did have taxpayer-funded security after accepting £5m gift from billionaire

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/farage-taxpayer-funded-security-after-accepting-5m-gift-4644638
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,324
    edited 8:06AM
    Only pensioners in receipt of pension credit received a winter fuel allowance last winter. However, the substantial majority will receive it this winter. I don't think it has yet sunk in to many pensioners and non-pensioners that the WFA is going to be largely restored, at least to all those who need it. If not, and the impact of the decision to cull WFA was as significant electorally as this polling suggests, then Burnham has an opportunity to benefit electorally if he gets the communications right (Starmer didn't).
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,324

    Farage did have taxpayer-funded security after accepting £5m gift from billionaire

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/farage-taxpayer-funded-security-after-accepting-5m-gift-4644638

    Must be fake news. Farage said he didn't. He always tells the truth. Just like his mate Trump.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
    To be fair on crypto, it is also used by people trying to get out of places like Russia and China.
    bypassing the currency restrictions of those countries - so just a different version of the criminal facilitation.
    So you get debanking of people seeking asylum from the Russian and Chinese governments.

    Which is happening right now.

    Maybe we should automatically debank all political refugees. They have broken their countries laws, pretty much by definition.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,956
    Starmer had a civil servant mentality not a high politician one . He was always waiting on others to tell him what to do . Even his freebies was probably because he thought oh that must be the way things are of you are pm without making a firm decision himself to not take them .
    The tv series with coogan - Legends has the backdrop of them doing (as civil servants) the new and hard work of going after drug dealers and organised crime because Thatcher said she wanted them to . Starmer would be waiting in somebody to be the thatcher to tell him what to do .
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,956
    edited 8:08AM
    Starmer had a civil servant mentality not a high politician one . He was always waiting on others to tell him what to do . Even his freebies was probably because he thought oh that must be the way things are if you are pm without making a firm decision himself to not take them .
    The tv series with coogan - Legends has the backdrop of them doing (as civil servants) the new and hard work of going after drug dealers and organised crime because Thatcher said she wanted them to . Starmer would be waiting in somebody to be the thatcher to tell him what to do .
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,427
    The early fall was Southport and the viciousness with which some mainstream Conservatives, the papers and, of course, Reform, were prepared to embrace and echo often outright false narratives originating at times from bona fide neo-Nazis. The Starmer government never really got to grips with how that toxicity escaped its online bubble pretty much on day one to become mainstream. It wasn't great at day to day communication, so it stood little chance against that onslaught.

    Without it, each of the other things on the IPSOS chart, from winter fuel, to Lord Alli, is a smaller hit and a serious downwards turn possibly would have been delayed until Mandelson. That doesn't negate all those missteps and compromises, that doesn't negate that Starmer was something of an ideological vacuum.

    What that does say is that it put Starmer on a fast track rather than a slower track to removal, and it affected this government more than it affected his predecessors who, admittedly, got some similar flack but nowhere near at the level of viciousness that jumped at Starmer from the outset.

    Labour must learn how to deal with the more aggressively misinformational corners of X, Burnham is very good at the online celebrity quiz type interviews, but that alone will only be a part of the fightback story.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    Clearly on that Ipsos chart, the big collapse in Starmer's rating came after he and Reeves scrapped winter fuel allowance for most pensioners. When Reeves u turned and instead just means tested it she actually ended up with a relatively sensible policy but by then then damage had been done
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,399
    IanB2 said:

    Yet Blair in his early days abolished both MIRAS and the married tax allowance, both very long-standing parts of our tax system with many benefeciaries. Tacking Winter Fuel Allowance went wrong surely because of the way it was handled, and the relative shortfall in political capital to start with, rather than because dealing with it was wrong in principle.

    MIRAS was reduced steadily from 1991 onwards, so Brown only had to abolish 10%.

    I hadn't realised the true genius of Nigel Lawson, triggering a house price spike, by not phasing the abolition of double MIRAS for unmarried couples, and then the inevitable price crash pitching the same couples into negative equity.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,539

    FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty for Norris for exceeding parts' limits.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cj038y0levyo


    On-topic: it went wrong with the Ming vase nonsense when facing an unpopular government that had been there for many years. Pretending the Conservatives were unnecessarily spending less because they're mean rather than because of economic constraints also wasn't terribly smart (but then, neither is hiking NI to fling it away on benefits while Defence gets promises but not funds).

    FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty for Norris for exceeding parts' limits.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cj038y0levyo


    On-topic: it went wrong with the Ming vase nonsense when facing an unpopular government that had been there for many years. Pretending the Conservatives were unnecessarily spending less because they're mean rather than because of economic constraints also wasn't terribly smart (but then, neither is hiking NI to fling it away on benefits while Defence gets promises but not funds).

    Yes, the problem was that he came into power with no clear idea what his priorities were, what needed to be done and what changes he wanted to make. We had the chronically dishonest "black hole" nonsense so that he could somehow justify basically spending what the Tories had because it was all of the money available and all that could be sensibly borrowed. The lies that austerity was a choice, as opposed to simple governance, caught up with him.

    I hope, for the sake of the country, Burnham learns from this; that he has clear objectives and makes the argument in the country for them so that a consensus will build. His choice of Chancellor is likely to be key to his success in that area but Burnham himself is far more relatable than Starmer ever was.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    Cookie said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Boris Johnson stayed popular for a good two years in remarkably difficult circumstances, and could have remained popular for longer had he and his party not made a series of completely unforced errors (partygate, pinchergate). Rishi Sunak took over an unpopular Conservative Party and became unpopular by association, but I don't think any Conservative leader could have turned that particularly ship around. I don't think immediate unpoularity is quite as inevitable as we assume. Starmer was just utterly terrible at politics.
    Starmer resigns as PM though with his and his party's poll ratings lower than Boris and Johnson's and indeed not much different to where Truss and the Tories were when she resigned. Burnham could well add a bit of a Johnson 2019 poll boost to Labour replacing Starmer as Johnson did on replacing May but that doesn't not mean he will be a very competent serious PM as Boris never really was
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587

    Maybe it's as simple as he wasn't suited to the role of Prime Minister and was much more suited to being Leader of the Opposition. With a bit more self-awareness maybe he could have understood this and planned an exit, even groomed a preferred successor.

    Its just like when people are promoted for being good at their current job, rather than because they'll be good at the next one

    Actually Starmer was probably personality wise more suited to being PM than LOTO, he was an administrator not a terrier like Corbyn or Badenoch but he also needed policies that connected and failed on that
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    Not even they would have survived effectively scrapping WFA completely
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,852
    scampi25 said:

    For sure Burnham is a more popular politician right now. However, he can do very little in the face of his dinosaur MPs who won't contemplate any of the cuts needed nor the tough line on immigration etc. Hence his honeymoon is likely to be rather short. Farage has pushed his luck and may not survive the coming denouement although his grifting surprises no-one - Starmer and the others grabbing a few cheap freebies was arguably worse for the hypocritical stench it left behind.

    This is true of course. Vast numbers of his MPs are useless. However they also want to keep their seats and an election will soon feel close. In Burnham's public utterances there was one, and only one, iron fist inside the velvet glove. In the Manchester speech he said basically that he would run a very listening outfit, with MPs nicely freed to opine what they want and the whips being as powerful as window monitors. With one exception: The political direction he sets is non-negotiable.

    This, as we shall soon find out, covers whatever Burnham and his government wants it to cover. There is no such thing as a government policy which cannot be said to be part of the non-negotiable political direction. Did no-one notice this?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,682

    Well


    Frankly offensive, TSE. We shouldn't stoop to their level.


  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,378
    Cookie said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Boris Johnson stayed popular for a good two years in remarkably difficult circumstances, and could have remained popular for longer had he and his party not made a series of completely unforced errors (partygate, pinchergate). Rishi Sunak took over an unpopular Conservative Party and became unpopular by association, but I don't think any Conservative leader could have turned that particularly ship around. I don't think immediate unpoularity is quite as inevitable as we assume. Starmer was just utterly terrible at politics.


    Johnson benefited from two big boosts (COVID flag effect, then vaccination), but since Dave left, the big picture has always been the same.

    It's always interesting to look at specific weather events, but it's the climate that matters, even if a rotten climate can have some nice days in it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553

    FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: 10 place grid penalty for Norris for exceeding parts' limits.
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cj038y0levyo


    On-topic: it went wrong with the Ming vase nonsense when facing an unpopular government that had been there for many years. Pretending the Conservatives were unnecessarily spending less because they're mean rather than because of economic constraints also wasn't terribly smart (but then, neither is hiking NI to fling it away on benefits while Defence gets promises but not funds).

    The new Mercedes power units are said to improve performance and reliability, as well as address the specific causes of failures earlier in the season.

    Red Bull have removed the turning rear wing system, after it dumped Mr Verstappen in the cat litter two weekends running.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,240
    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I looked at the comments, and they were all various flavours of stupid. But nobody mentioned the Ramstein disaster in 1988. They changed the rules after that to "never fly over the crowd". That shouldn't have happened
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,850
    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    I don't recall "the fawning media" you mention.

    The Mail and others were unremittingly hostile to Blair throughout his tenure but the problem was, as Brown was following Clarke's spending plans for the first two years, they couldn't put a glove on him. There was also a sense of profound shock and disbelief after the scale of the 1997 disaster - I think most Tories thought they might lose by 30-50 seats not 160.

    Back to Starmer - again, I don't wholly agree. The overarching sentiment was "change" but from what and especially to what wasn't made clear. In 1997, Blair basically won by promising to do post-Thatcherism better than Major and his disunited, quarrelling rabble.

    In 2024, Starmer had the same message - Continuity Sunak which of course was being roundly rejected by the electorate.

    There was an opportunity for a radical message - perhaps more Wilson than Attlee or Thatcher - but the shadow of 1992 still looms large over Labour thinking (and you can add the shadow of 2019 as a lesson of how "radical" policies go down and that's why the Triple Lock remains the problem).

    As others have pointed out, the "freebies" set a discordant tone from the start - to be honest, in the cosmic scheme of things, absolutely trivial but there is a hyper-sensitivity to politicians receiving anything from "friends" and there's a sense of you get them and we don't.

    The Winter Fuel Allowance was the policy disaster - this reeked of a sense of "something" needing to be done. In essence, not a bad idea and properly and thoughtfully implemented, it could have worked very well. WFA was being paid to people who didn't need it and removing it from higher rate tax payers (with appropriate tapering) would have led to grumbling but not much more.

    If you have a big majority you can do a lot and often things that are very unpopular initially but whose benefit can be seen 3-4 years down the road. If all that matters is popularity, you'll end unpopular by virtue of inertia. Doing unpopular stuff requires party discipline and strength - the backbenches walked away from challenges to the welfare budget. Governing continually looking over your shoulder means you bump into things.

    I'm not angry with Starmer and I don't "hate" him but I am disappointed by him and his failure to take the opportunity to do something really radical and significant for the country.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,378
    algarkirk said:

    scampi25 said:

    For sure Burnham is a more popular politician right now. However, he can do very little in the face of his dinosaur MPs who won't contemplate any of the cuts needed nor the tough line on immigration etc. Hence his honeymoon is likely to be rather short. Farage has pushed his luck and may not survive the coming denouement although his grifting surprises no-one - Starmer and the others grabbing a few cheap freebies was arguably worse for the hypocritical stench it left behind.

    This is true of course. Vast numbers of his MPs are useless. However they also want to keep their seats and an election will soon feel close. In Burnham's public utterances there was one, and only one, iron fist inside the velvet glove. In the Manchester speech he said basically that he would run a very listening outfit, with MPs nicely freed to opine what they want and the whips being as powerful as window monitors. With one exception: The political direction he sets is non-negotiable.

    This, as we shall soon find out, covers whatever Burnham and his government wants it to cover. There is no such thing as a government policy which cannot be said to be part of the non-negotiable political direction. Did no-one notice this?
    It's potentially another "use Elgar for radical reform, Stravinsky for no change" things. The more you intend to run a ruthless political operation, the more you have to talk about openness and velvet gloves.

    And the last few months have shown how ruthless Team Burnham can be. Now we have to see how well that holds up in government.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,684

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
    To be fair on crypto, it is also used by people trying to get out of places like Russia and China.
    bypassing the currency restrictions of those countries - so just a different version of the criminal facilitation.
    So you get debanking of people seeking asylum from the Russian and Chinese governments.

    Which is happening right now.

    Maybe we should automatically debank all political refugees. They have broken their countries laws, pretty much by definition.
    Relevant: https://www.hackneycitizen.co.uk/2026/07/14/andrew-boff-debanked-hsbc-ukraine-trip/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401
    Pro_Rata said:

    The early fall was Southport and the viciousness with which some mainstream Conservatives, the papers and, of course, Reform, were prepared to embrace and echo often outright false narratives originating at times from bona fide neo-Nazis. The Starmer government never really got to grips with how that toxicity escaped its online bubble pretty much on day one to become mainstream. It wasn't great at day to day communication, so it stood little chance against that onslaught.

    Without it, each of the other things on the IPSOS chart, from winter fuel, to Lord Alli, is a smaller hit and a serious downwards turn possibly would have been delayed until Mandelson. That doesn't negate all those missteps and compromises, that doesn't negate that Starmer was something of an ideological vacuum.

    What that does say is that it put Starmer on a fast track rather than a slower track to removal, and it affected this government more than it affected his predecessors who, admittedly, got some similar flack but nowhere near at the level of viciousness that jumped at Starmer from the outset.

    Labour must learn how to deal with the more aggressively misinformational corners of X, Burnham is very good at the online celebrity quiz type interviews, but that alone will only be a part of the fightback story.

    There were a series of completely unforced errors that tanked Starmer's reputation with the Labour Party and the MPs. Who are not exactly alt-right. And it was especially the left of the party he has pissed off.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    'China has hit out at the nationalisation of British Steel, saying it "firmly opposes and is strongly dissatisfied with the British government's decision".

    On Thursday, the UK government said that taking the loss-making firm into public hands would protect jobs and safeguard a "vital national capability".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjd4kvxpd3do
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,789
    Rutland abolished again:
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-s-smallest-county-swallowed-up-again/ar-AA285bmD?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6a59dca22d3248c9ae3c12b6ee034d74&ei=31

    I'm quite a traditionalist when it comes to county geography. But I can completely see the reason for this: Rutland is far too tiny a population for the services a county is expected to provide.

    What I think is needed is one of two things - either:
    - a way of disassociating county identity from administrative geography - this really shouldn't be that hard to do: a few signs in the right places, institutional continuity, etc - so I could say 'I live in Cheshire' while having my bins collected by Trafford Council. This isn't the snobbery it's often perceived as; it's just a desire for continuity and local identity. I want to be able to aske a question like 'how many league football clubs have ever played home games in Cheshire' without a long footnote explaining what I mean by 'Cheshire'. I want to be able to answer 'where is Kirkby Lonsdale' with the same answer I would have given 20 or 50 or 100 years ago.
    Or:
    - a complete year zero where we abandon the old and have completely new administrative units for the half-a-million-to-three-million population units of territory. I could draw you up dozens of these right now. But we'd then have to agree to stick with them completely a la American states for the next 500 years at least and stop fucking tinkering.


  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,137
    tlg86 said:

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    Given it was Cameron who brought in the triple lock, I'm not sure that's true.
    Cameron cut back on child benefit, introduced a benefits cap to families and a withdrawal of relief.

    However, yes, you're right- he didn't touch pensioners, and even majored on protecting the free bus pass in the debates, which shows what a gerontocracy we've become.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,137
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    I think she was like SKS. Devoid of people and political skills.

    Her approach was to sit saying nothing in silence for months, and then act as a dictator when she'd decided.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,519
    Cookie said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's gift should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I think they reason Alligate damaged Starmer so much is that it was preceded by Labour sitting on the highest of high horses over propriety. A lot of their support came from people who genuinely thought them the good guys. When it transpired as they were just as grifty as all the others this damaged them quite a lot. Quantities don't matter here - my view is that grift is seen as binary: either you take stuff you're not entitled to or you don't. To use TSE's favourite analogy, being seen as clean is like virginity - once you lose it, it's gone.

    Farage is possibly less damageable in this sense because being seen as clean was never really one of his selling points.

    For me Starmer's original sin back in summer 2024 was Chagos, but I'd say that only hurt him among people suspicious of Labour anyway, and was complex in a way that Alligate (or - because I do agree with DJL here - 2-tier-Keir) wasn't.
    Labour/Left politicians are judged more harshly for transgressions due to being 'holier than thou' compared to Tory/Right politicians where it is 'priced in' - I keep hearing this as if it's some sort of rule of public life. Well if it is a rule it shouldn't be. The inference is that politicians in general are best served being relaxed about grift and corruption and loose morals in their chosen profession. Don't make a big deal of it in others, create some leeway for yourself. No thank you. That's a race to the bottom.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553
    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    So now we move on to Burnham, who’s even more of a blank sheet of paper than Starmer was.

    He’s done no campaigning, no serious interviews, we have no real idea what he believes in or what his plans are for the country.

    He also didn’t stand under that thin 2024 manifesto, so will he feel bound by it, or will he go to the country next year to receive a mandate for more significant policy change, so that he doesn’t feel bound by left-wing backbenchers blocking everything with which they disagree?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,789
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's gift should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I think they reason Alligate damaged Starmer so much is that it was preceded by Labour sitting on the highest of high horses over propriety. A lot of their support came from people who genuinely thought them the good guys. When it transpired as they were just as grifty as all the others this damaged them quite a lot. Quantities don't matter here - my view is that grift is seen as binary: either you take stuff you're not entitled to or you don't. To use TSE's favourite analogy, being seen as clean is like virginity - once you lose it, it's gone.

    Farage is possibly less damageable in this sense because being seen as clean was never really one of his selling points.

    For me Starmer's original sin back in summer 2024 was Chagos, but I'd say that only hurt him among people suspicious of Labour anyway, and was complex in a way that Alligate (or - because I do agree with DJL here - 2-tier-Keir) wasn't.
    Labour/Left politicians are judged more harshly for transgressions due to being 'holier than thou' compared to Tory/Right politicians where it is 'priced in' - I keep hearing this as if it's some sort of rule of public life. Well if it is a rule it shouldn't be. The inference is that politicians in general are best served being relaxed about grift and corruption and loose morals in their chosen profession. Don't make a big deal of it in others, create some leeway for yourself. No thank you. That's a race to the bottom.
    Or: try to distinguish what is genuinely worthy of criticism from what isn't. The reason Angela Rayner lost her job wasn't the nature of her transgressions - which were a grey area - but because she had gone after Tories for far less.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
    To be fair on crypto, it is also used by people trying to get out of places like Russia and China.
    bypassing the currency restrictions of those countries - so just a different version of the criminal facilitation.
    So you get debanking of people seeking asylum from the Russian and Chinese governments.

    Which is happening right now.

    Maybe we should automatically debank all political refugees. They have broken their countries laws, pretty much by definition.
    Relevant: https://www.hackneycitizen.co.uk/2026/07/14/andrew-boff-debanked-hsbc-ukraine-trip/
    Indeed.

    There is a strong suspicion among the more thinking people in banking, that debanking has been weaponised by Russia, China and others.

    There is a pattern of reports on people hostile to such states having accounts blocked.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,218

    Well


    Ugh.

    Thats at the level of the Argentine “gammon flag shaggers” who bang on about the Malvinas all the time.
    Heartwarming though that (some) people are all the same really.

    Stan Collymore is having an epic bad loser's meltdown.

    https://x.com/_JC1971/status/2077806503335964854?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    So now we move on to Burnham, who’s even more of a blank sheet of paper than Starmer was.

    He’s done no campaigning, no serious interviews, we have no real idea what he believes in or what his plans are for the country.

    He also didn’t stand under that thin 2024 manifesto, so will he feel bound by it, or will he go to the country next year to receive a mandate for more significant policy change, so that he doesn’t feel bound by left-wing backbenchers blocking everything with which they disagree?
    Surely the shift to Burnham is one for even more tax and spend and more appeasing of leftwing backbenchers
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,852
    Just to note that at this minute we are in an unusual situation where Labour leadership is not leaking, and it is clear that no-one outside a closed circle knows anything worth knowing. It will be interesting to see if this can last as it is not a natural state of affairs in modern politics. The top guns in the 24 hour news cycle are, I think, hating every minute of it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,701
    @danneidle.bsky.social

    In May we said Nigel Farage probably didn't owe tax on his £5m gift.

    The Guardian now reports the gift followed talks where Farage said he'd need £5m to return to frontline politics.

    *If* that's right, we think there's a high risk of a £3m tax bill - payable by Reform.

    https://bsky.app/profile/danneidle.bsky.social/post/3mqtdpnasto2j
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    I think she was like SKS. Devoid of people and political skills.

    Her approach was to sit saying nothing in silence for months, and then act as a dictator when she'd decided.
    May like Starmer was more suited to being a senior civil servant, both lacked the charisma and people skills to be top rank politicians and election campaigners
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553

    eek said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's money should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I have sod all problem with the other ways that Farage makes money - the gift stinks especially if you look at how Farage has changed his tune over Crypto which is just a criminal facilitator / ponzi scheme depend on the coin / creator.
    To be fair on crypto, it is also used by people trying to get out of places like Russia and China.
    The Russians who arrived in the sandpit after the war started, came with old-fashioned and new-fashioned money - gold bars and Bitcoin.

    They also discovered that it’s really easy to buy either at scale, but somewhat more difficult to sell large quantities into a country with banking regulations! They was one story of a guy who bought a house in Dubai with Bitcoin, presumably from a seller who was happy to accept the crypto rather than dirhams!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,787
    Cookie said:

    Rutland abolished again:
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-s-smallest-county-swallowed-up-again/ar-AA285bmD?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6a59dca22d3248c9ae3c12b6ee034d74&ei=31

    I'm quite a traditionalist when it comes to county geography. But I can completely see the reason for this: Rutland is far too tiny a population for the services a county is expected to provide.

    What I think is needed is one of two things - either:
    - a way of disassociating county identity from administrative geography - this really shouldn't be that hard to do: a few signs in the right places, institutional continuity, etc - so I could say 'I live in Cheshire' while having my bins collected by Trafford Council. This isn't the snobbery it's often perceived as; it's just a desire for continuity and local identity. I want to be able to aske a question like 'how many league football clubs have ever played home games in Cheshire' without a long footnote explaining what I mean by 'Cheshire'. I want to be able to answer 'where is Kirkby Lonsdale' with the same answer I would have given 20 or 50 or 100 years ago.
    Or:
    - a complete year zero where we abandon the old and have completely new administrative units for the half-a-million-to-three-million population units of territory. I could draw you up dozens of these right now. But we'd then have to agree to stick with them completely a la American states for the next 500 years at least and stop fucking tinkering.


    Won't happen. Too many people are too attached to the counties. Along with the parishes they have existed pretty much since Saxon times and people like the tradition - the sense of belonging. As soon as someone with a better sense of heritage gets back into power they wil be back in place.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,793
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I looked at the comments, and they were all various flavours of stupid. But nobody mentioned the Ramstein disaster in 1988. They changed the rules after that to "never fly over the crowd". That shouldn't have happened
    Ramstein was a mid-air collision. If this shit had gone wrong, which it very easily could have for multiple reasons, then it would have been more like Skniliv 2002 when the UkrAF ploughed a Flanker into a crowd by low levels antics in contravention of the flight plan.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,808
    HYUFD said:

    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo

    So, back in 2016, he's certain foreigners didn't interfere... but they're doing it now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    I think she was like SKS. Devoid of people and political skills.

    Her approach was to sit saying nothing in silence for months, and then act as a dictator when she'd decided.
    May like Starmer was more suited to being a senior civil servant, both lacked the charisma and people skills to be top rank politicians and election campaigners
    As head of the CPS, his job was to create a working policy *within the existing policy framework*. And then manage an organisation which was strictly hierarchical. Anything he ordered to be done, was backed with the implicit stick of insubordination.

    Being PM requires inventing policy and managing a vast range of relationships, most of which are not direct subordinates.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,259
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo

    So, back in 2016, he's certain foreigners didn't interfere... but they're doing it now.
    They forgot to interfere in the 2024 election it seems.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I can't say I haven't done similar, but holy fuck, time and place...

    Hegseth's reaction is as fucking stupid and shit as you'd expect. He's undermining the safety culture and is going to get people killed.
    It seems to have become a culture war touchstone, which likely means a lot more boundary pushing.
    The pilot will still be getting the hat-on interview, with no tea and no biscuits, irrespective of what the politicians might think.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,787
    HYUFD said:

    'China has hit out at the nationalisation of British Steel, saying it "firmly opposes and is strongly dissatisfied with the British government's decision".

    On Thursday, the UK government said that taking the loss-making firm into public hands would protect jobs and safeguard a "vital national capability".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjd4kvxpd3do

    Its a great model for the future (not). Drive a business into the ground through imposing huge energy costs, then take them over claiming to be doing it to save them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,378

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    I think she was like SKS. Devoid of people and political skills.

    Her approach was to sit saying nothing in silence for months, and then act as a dictator when she'd decided.
    The analogy with May is probably right. In normal times, neither of them would have been called on to be PM, but they were the least bad options at the time.

    Both had a better grasp of the shittiness of their in-tray than their detractors, which didn't help them communicate why they were doing what they were doing. (Starmer failed to communicate to his MPs that not all the stuff they didn't like could be unwound instantly, May could never get the Brexit right to see that their unicorns were donkeys with ice cream.cones on their noses. Communication is a two way thing.)

    I'd put Year 1 Sunak in a similar space, but he rather spoiled it in the run-up to the election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo

    So, back in 2016, he's certain foreigners didn't interfere... but they're doing it now.
    They forgot to interfere in the 2024 election it seems.
    Probably a process thing.

    The committee, in Chinese Intelligence, that decides the budget for the biscuits for the committee that decides the budget for decorating with flowers, the room where the committee to decide on interfering with the American election failed to meet.

    Because the committee....

    You know that makes sense.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,218
    edited 8:52AM
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo

    So, back in 2016, he's certain foreigners didn't interfere... but they're doing it now.
    Thomas Massie, who unlike most of his colleagues shows occasional signs of clear thinking. Of course they're pre-emptively complaing cos they're facing an ass-whipping in the mid terms.

    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar
    ·
    20h
    Massie: "I don't think the problem is that our elections aren't secure because we control the House, Senate, White House, and to some degree we control the Supreme Court. So I ask my Republican colleagues, why are you complaining about election fraud? We won all the damn elections!"

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2077735995210883522?s=20
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,089
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    I think she was like SKS. Devoid of people and political skills.

    Her approach was to sit saying nothing in silence for months, and then act as a dictator when she'd decided.
    May like Starmer was more suited to being a senior civil servant, both lacked the charisma and people skills to be top rank politicians and election campaigners
    But Starmer was less popular than Corbyn - well the Labour Party got fewer votes. it was just that our electoral system catapulted them into such a big majority.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,172
    Cookie said:

    Rutland abolished again:
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-s-smallest-county-swallowed-up-again/ar-AA285bmD?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6a59dca22d3248c9ae3c12b6ee034d74&ei=31

    I'm quite a traditionalist when it comes to county geography. But I can completely see the reason for this: Rutland is far too tiny a population for the services a county is expected to provide.

    What I think is needed is one of two things - either:
    - a way of disassociating county identity from administrative geography - this really shouldn't be that hard to do: a few signs in the right places, institutional continuity, etc - so I could say 'I live in Cheshire' while having my bins collected by Trafford Council. This isn't the snobbery it's often perceived as; it's just a desire for continuity and local identity. I want to be able to aske a question like 'how many league football clubs have ever played home games in Cheshire' without a long footnote explaining what I mean by 'Cheshire'. I want to be able to answer 'where is Kirkby Lonsdale' with the same answer I would have given 20 or 50 or 100 years ago.
    Or:
    - a complete year zero where we abandon the old and have completely new administrative units for the half-a-million-to-three-million population units of territory. I could draw you up dozens of these right now. But we'd then have to agree to stick with them completely a la American states for the next 500 years at least and stop fucking tinkering.


    I am wondering, given the timing and the storms it is unleashing, whether the announcement of the new unitaries is a dirty bomb exploded under Burnham's premiership by Starmer or whether it was an attempt by Labour to pin the blame on what's going to be a highly damaging process on the outgoing PM.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,247
    edited 8:57AM
    HYUFD said:

    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo

    Despite the endless lies, the Iran debacle, the insulting of former allies, the threats to Greenland and Canada, sucking up to Putin, the tariffs fiasco and the industrial scale corruption and grifting ........ 40% of Americans approve of the job he is doing!

    That tells you everything you need to know about the state America is in and why we can never ever trust the USA again.

    By all means cooperate with a sane successor but insulate ourselves from the US as best we can because as sure as night follows day the US will elect another lunatic within the next decade. Trump is just a symptom of what the USA has become.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,793
    edited 8:57AM
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I can't say I haven't done similar, but holy fuck, time and place...

    Hegseth's reaction is as fucking stupid and shit as you'd expect. He's undermining the safety culture and is going to get people killed.
    It seems to have become a culture war touchstone, which likely means a lot more boundary pushing.
    The pilot will still be getting the hat-on interview, with no tea and no biscuits, irrespective of what the politicians might think.
    Absolutely no hats indoors in the US Navy unless required for a specific duty. It's the "cover off" rule.

    It's not about this pilot, although there is now no meaningful sanction that can be applied. Hegseth and that c-nt who is SECNAV (can't remember his name) have completely undermined the CO of the unit just they did with the AH-64 ANG crew. The message is that anything goes as long as it looks cool. How do you think aviators, particularly the young and inexperienced, are going to react to this?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,519
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's gift should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I think they reason Alligate damaged Starmer so much is that it was preceded by Labour sitting on the highest of high horses over propriety. A lot of their support came from people who genuinely thought them the good guys. When it transpired as they were just as grifty as all the others this damaged them quite a lot. Quantities don't matter here - my view is that grift is seen as binary: either you take stuff you're not entitled to or you don't. To use TSE's favourite analogy, being seen as clean is like virginity - once you lose it, it's gone.

    Farage is possibly less damageable in this sense because being seen as clean was never really one of his selling points.

    For me Starmer's original sin back in summer 2024 was Chagos, but I'd say that only hurt him among people suspicious of Labour anyway, and was complex in a way that Alligate (or - because I do agree with DJL here - 2-tier-Keir) wasn't.
    Labour/Left politicians are judged more harshly for transgressions due to being 'holier than thou' compared to Tory/Right politicians where it is 'priced in' - I keep hearing this as if it's some sort of rule of public life. Well if it is a rule it shouldn't be. The inference is that politicians in general are best served being relaxed about grift and corruption and loose morals in their chosen profession. Don't make a big deal of it in others, create some leeway for yourself. No thank you. That's a race to the bottom.
    Or: try to distinguish what is genuinely worthy of criticism from what isn't. The reason Angela Rayner lost her job wasn't the nature of her transgressions - which were a grey area - but because she had gone after Tories for far less.
    The gravity of bad behaviour in politics should be assessed according to the behaviour not the offender. It's tempting to bring other stuff into it but we should try not to. Eg Farage's £5m bung is hugely worse than Rayner's stamp duty carelessness and is not mitigated one iota by the fact he hasn't made a song and dance about financial impropriety in other politicians.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553
    HYUFD said:

    Clearly on that Ipsos chart, the big collapse in Starmer's rating came after he and Reeves scrapped winter fuel allowance for most pensioners. When Reeves u turned and instead just means tested it she actually ended up with a relatively sensible policy but by then then damage had been done

    As with most of Starmer’s u-turns, he ended up losing the support of people on both sides of each issue.

    Even his ministers must have been infuriated, being sent out to defend what everyone already knew would be abandoned a week later.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,399
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    So now we move on to Burnham, who’s even more of a blank sheet of paper than Starmer was.

    He’s done no campaigning, no serious interviews, we have no real idea what he believes in or what his plans are for the country.

    He also didn’t stand under that thin 2024 manifesto, so will he feel bound by it, or will he go to the country next year to receive a mandate for more significant policy change, so that he doesn’t feel bound by left-wing backbenchers blocking everything with which they disagree?
    Surely the shift to Burnham is one for even more tax and spend and more appeasing of leftwing backbenchers
    What is Burnham's Manchesterism in reality?
    A slogan
    Taking back control of the buses and transport integration
    Caving on the Manchester LEZ (maybe irrelevant in medium term with increased vehicle electrification)
    City centre development, mainly high rises

    I hope it isn't so, but it looks like his advantages over Starmer are that he's more personable and media-friendly (for now) but that he's demonstrated as much if not more political cowardice.
    I expect him to be more appeasing of the right wing media than Starmer, neither have demonstrated the steadfastness of Sadiq Khan when confronted with media hostility.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,620

    Cookie said:

    Rutland abolished again:
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-s-smallest-county-swallowed-up-again/ar-AA285bmD?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6a59dca22d3248c9ae3c12b6ee034d74&ei=31

    I'm quite a traditionalist when it comes to county geography. But I can completely see the reason for this: Rutland is far too tiny a population for the services a county is expected to provide.

    What I think is needed is one of two things - either:
    - a way of disassociating county identity from administrative geography - this really shouldn't be that hard to do: a few signs in the right places, institutional continuity, etc - so I could say 'I live in Cheshire' while having my bins collected by Trafford Council. This isn't the snobbery it's often perceived as; it's just a desire for continuity and local identity. I want to be able to aske a question like 'how many league football clubs have ever played home games in Cheshire' without a long footnote explaining what I mean by 'Cheshire'. I want to be able to answer 'where is Kirkby Lonsdale' with the same answer I would have given 20 or 50 or 100 years ago.
    Or:
    - a complete year zero where we abandon the old and have completely new administrative units for the half-a-million-to-three-million population units of territory. I could draw you up dozens of these right now. But we'd then have to agree to stick with them completely a la American states for the next 500 years at least and stop fucking tinkering.


    Won't happen. Too many people are too attached to the counties. Along with the parishes they have existed pretty much since Saxon times and people like the tradition - the sense of belonging. As soon as someone with a better sense of heritage gets back into power they wil be back in place.
    Clackmannanshire waves hello. I think one-tier is fine but there should be some recognition of history and geography. US state boundaries are just silly.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,195
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Also from header re Farage:-

    Freebies from Lord Alli made Sir Keir look bad. If a pair of glasses and some other minor freebies can destroy Starmer’s reputation then no wonder why Nigel Farage is in a panic over his £5 million donation from Christopher Harbone which looks bad to the 64th power. We can see Farage’s ratings tumbling, this isn’t a surprise.

    Starmer's problem was 2-tier Keir over Southport not free gear Keir over some glasses.

    Farage we might have got wrong too. It is not taking the £5 million that is the problem, but taking the £5 million and yet continuing all his other grifts that Harborne's gift should have let him stop: the Cameos, hawking gold and so on. As for consequences, it is not Harborne but Posh George that will land him in it.

    I think they reason Alligate damaged Starmer so much is that it was preceded by Labour sitting on the highest of high horses over propriety. A lot of their support came from people who genuinely thought them the good guys. When it transpired as they were just as grifty as all the others this damaged them quite a lot. Quantities don't matter here - my view is that grift is seen as binary: either you take stuff you're not entitled to or you don't. To use TSE's favourite analogy, being seen as clean is like virginity - once you lose it, it's gone.

    Farage is possibly less damageable in this sense because being seen as clean was never really one of his selling points.

    For me Starmer's original sin back in summer 2024 was Chagos, but I'd say that only hurt him among people suspicious of Labour anyway, and was complex in a way that Alligate (or - because I do agree with DJL here - 2-tier-Keir) wasn't.
    Labour/Left politicians are judged more harshly for transgressions due to being 'holier than thou' compared to Tory/Right politicians where it is 'priced in' - I keep hearing this as if it's some sort of rule of public life. Well if it is a rule it shouldn't be. The inference is that politicians in general are best served being relaxed about grift and corruption and loose morals in their chosen profession. Don't make a big deal of it in others, create some leeway for yourself. No thank you. That's a race to the bottom.
    Or: try to distinguish what is genuinely worthy of criticism from what isn't. The reason Angela Rayner lost her job wasn't the nature of her transgressions - which were a grey area - but because she had gone after Tories for far less.
    One aspect of Rayner losing her job is the same that would provide Farage a legitimate complaint if he'd STFU and think. Both their fates were left in the hands of a single apparatchik.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    'US President Donald Trump has delivered a primetime address in which he accused China of interfering in the 2020 election and alleged "shocking vulnerabilities" in American voting systems.

    Trump, who spoke from the White House on Thursday, has repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and foreign meddling in the 2020 election which he lost to Joe Biden.

    In the half-hour speech, delivered three months before the midterm elections, he said he had declassified hundreds of intelligence files which supported his claims that Beijing had tried to sway the election in Biden's favour.

    The US intelligence community has previously concluded China did not interfere in the 2020 election.'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2k9wvv5wyo

    Despite the endless lies, the Iran debacle, the insulting of former allies, the threats to Greenland and Canada, sucking up to Putin, the tariffs fiasco and the industrial scale corruption and grifting ........ 40% of Americans approve of the job he is doing!

    That tells you everything you need to know about the state America is in and why we can never ever trust the USA again.

    By all means cooperate with a sane successor but insulate ourselves from the US as best we can because as sure as night follows day the US will elect another lunatic within the next decade. Trump is just a symptom of what the USA has become.
    Mind you with the Le Pen, Farage, Hanson, the AfD etc all leading some polls in their nations the idea the US alone is prone to significant support to hardline nationalism and anti immigration rhetoric is for the birds
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,587
    Icarus said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    But also...

    Becoming unpopular is what has always happened to Prime Ministers.

    Becoming very unpopular very quickly is what tends to happen to Prime Ministers these days. Partly because it's a difficult country to run, partly because the modern media environment means that your opponents become your sworn enemies.

    I'm reminded of that long-run American polling on how well voters think the economy is doing, and how the partisan split flips on a dime whenever there's a change of presidency. It's too rapid to be policy, so it must be vibes. Fortunately for us, this isn't the USA, but some of those vibe issues have made it across the Atlantic.

    Starmer (not really a politician) was broken by that. Burnham is a politician, and has craved this job forever. Surely that will make him more resilient against the headwinds, but it won't make them go away.

    Good luck, sir. You are going to need it.

    Agree. While all political lives end in failure, the very top ability make their own luck, at least for a reasonable length of time. The current media climate and national mood make that hard of course, but not, IMO, quite impossible.

    The last PM with both the relevant qualities and the good luck being PM at a time when it was possible to do it for long was Cameron, who blew it away by the fatal flaw of being unprepared for 50% of the possible outcomes of his key policy.

    Since then we have had:

    May - not PM material
    Boris - morally not the right material
    Truss - no good
    Rishi - circumstances rendered the job impossible because his party was busted
    Starmer - golden opportunity but his personality made it impossible. + a series of elementary errors.

    I think Burnham has the best combination of personal qualities and situation since Cameron. Reform are on the run and exposed as morally flawed and tawdry; Tory recovery is way off. No-one but Labour is ready to govern.

    Tentative prediction: Burnham to survive, see off Reform, lead the government (majority or deal with LDs) after the next election in 28/29 and to be good for about 5 or 6 years.
    I don't think Theresa May would have ever made a brilliant PM - but I think she could have made an ok one. She actually looked reasonably good for the few months in which she had a majority. Trying to get Brexit through, without a majority, and with a signiifcant minority of her own parliamentary party opposed to it, would have taxed even the greatest statesman.
    And yes, her lack of majority is partly her own fault. She was a terrible campaigner. But if she lost the election on the dementia tax she was at least trying to do the right thing having spotted the opportunity of an apparently unloseable election. She deserves some credit at least here.
    I think she was like SKS. Devoid of people and political skills.

    Her approach was to sit saying nothing in silence for months, and then act as a dictator when she'd decided.
    May like Starmer was more suited to being a senior civil servant, both lacked the charisma and people skills to be top rank politicians and election campaigners
    But Starmer was less popular than Corbyn - well the Labour Party got fewer votes. it was just that our electoral system catapulted them into such a big majority.
    Yes, as he alienated swing voters less
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    So now we move on to Burnham, who’s even more of a blank sheet of paper than Starmer was.

    He’s done no campaigning, no serious interviews, we have no real idea what he believes in or what his plans are for the country.

    He also didn’t stand under that thin 2024 manifesto, so will he feel bound by it, or will he go to the country next year to receive a mandate for more significant policy change, so that he doesn’t feel bound by left-wing backbenchers blocking everything with which they disagree?
    Surely the shift to Burnham is one for even more tax and spend and more appeasing of leftwing backbenchers
    If it is then this government won't see September through
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I presume even Dura disapproves of this ?
    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/2077714480461476019

    I can't say I haven't done similar, but holy fuck, time and place...

    Hegseth's reaction is as fucking stupid and shit as you'd expect. He's undermining the safety culture and is going to get people killed.
    It seems to have become a culture war touchstone, which likely means a lot more boundary pushing.
    The pilot will still be getting the hat-on interview, with no tea and no biscuits, irrespective of what the politicians might think.
    Absolutely no hats indoors in the US Navy unless required for a specific duty. It's the "cover off" rule.

    It's not about this pilot, although there is now no meaningful sanction that can be applied. Hegseth and that c-nt who is SECNAV (can't remember his name) have completely undermined the CO of the unit just they did with the AH-64 ANG crew. The message is that anything goes as long as it looks cool. How do you think aviators, particularly the young and inexperienced, are going to react to this?
    Superiors ignoring and covering up dangerous behaviour, because it was "aggressive"?

    This comes to mind


  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,789

    Cookie said:

    Rutland abolished again:
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-s-smallest-county-swallowed-up-again/ar-AA285bmD?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6a59dca22d3248c9ae3c12b6ee034d74&ei=31

    I'm quite a traditionalist when it comes to county geography. But I can completely see the reason for this: Rutland is far too tiny a population for the services a county is expected to provide.

    What I think is needed is one of two things - either:
    - a way of disassociating county identity from administrative geography - this really shouldn't be that hard to do: a few signs in the right places, institutional continuity, etc - so I could say 'I live in Cheshire' while having my bins collected by Trafford Council. This isn't the snobbery it's often perceived as; it's just a desire for continuity and local identity. I want to be able to aske a question like 'how many league football clubs have ever played home games in Cheshire' without a long footnote explaining what I mean by 'Cheshire'. I want to be able to answer 'where is Kirkby Lonsdale' with the same answer I would have given 20 or 50 or 100 years ago.
    Or:
    - a complete year zero where we abandon the old and have completely new administrative units for the half-a-million-to-three-million population units of territory. I could draw you up dozens of these right now. But we'd then have to agree to stick with them completely a la American states for the next 500 years at least and stop fucking tinkering.


    Won't happen. Too many people are too attached to the counties. Along with the parishes they have existed pretty much since Saxon times and people like the tradition - the sense of belonging. As soon as someone with a better sense of heritage gets back into power they wil be back in place.
    Then we go with the first option.

    But I think you overestimate the extent to which people are attached. I am. But I know very few other people who understand or care. My quite-intelligent sister-in-law (I understate - she has a degree from Oxford and a masters from Cambridge and came in the 'just-about-top-of-the-year' category in both and is something terribly senior at somewhere quite large) cannot understand why Lancashire play at Old Trafford (for example).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,519
    Anyway just for once I agree with Donald Trump. There clearly is a massive vulnerability in the US electoral system. It fails to screen out the morons who vote for him. Get it fixed!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,195
    Scott_xP said:

    @danneidle.bsky.social

    In May we said Nigel Farage probably didn't owe tax on his £5m gift.

    The Guardian now reports the gift followed talks where Farage said he'd need £5m to return to frontline politics.

    *If* that's right, we think there's a high risk of a £3m tax bill - payable by Reform.

    https://bsky.app/profile/danneidle.bsky.social/post/3mqtdpnasto2j

    I think Dan Neidle is wrong about that (what do I know?) but it still raises the issue I mentioned earlier – the £5 million should have meant Farage could drop his other grifts but greed won out and he kept double-dipping. Ordinary Reform supporters might understand why Farage needed to hawk gold and video messages to earn a crust but not after the £5 million. What would you do if you won the lottery?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553
    HYUFD said:

    'China has hit out at the nationalisation of British Steel, saying it "firmly opposes and is strongly dissatisfied with the British government's decision".

    On Thursday, the UK government said that taking the loss-making firm into public hands would protect jobs and safeguard a "vital national capability".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjd4kvxpd3do

    LOL, Chinese steel good, British steel bad.

    China should be thanking Ed Miliband for making every other heavy industry shut down, not complaining about the last remaining steel works in the country being nationalised for national security reasons because they couldn’t afford the powere bill.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,553
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    So now we move on to Burnham, who’s even more of a blank sheet of paper than Starmer was.

    He’s done no campaigning, no serious interviews, we have no real idea what he believes in or what his plans are for the country.

    He also didn’t stand under that thin 2024 manifesto, so will he feel bound by it, or will he go to the country next year to receive a mandate for more significant policy change, so that he doesn’t feel bound by left-wing backbenchers blocking everything with which they disagree?
    Surely the shift to Burnham is one for even more tax and spend and more appeasing of leftwing backbenchers
    Well we’ll soon find out!

    I have to admit astonishment at a change of leadership with so little discussion or debate.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 37,195
    Dopermean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Another mistake that probably doomed Keir's premiership was the extraordinarily thin manifesto Labour ran on. It kept the Labour Party together and didn't frighten the horses before the last election, but it meant that the electorate had no clear idea what it was voting for, other than getting the Conservatives out, that Labour couldn't claim a mandate for whatever it did in office; and that Labour's turbulent backbenchers could all claim that whatever they wanted was "real Labour" and that everyone else was just a traitor.

    Blair did the same in 1997, and got away with it, but was blessed with a fawning media that would make the North Koreans blush, a dream economic legacy from the Conservatives, and once-in-a-generation political skills.

    Starmer had none of those. And, once people realised what he was going to do, his support collapsed pretty quickly.

    So now we move on to Burnham, who’s even more of a blank sheet of paper than Starmer was.

    He’s done no campaigning, no serious interviews, we have no real idea what he believes in or what his plans are for the country.

    He also didn’t stand under that thin 2024 manifesto, so will he feel bound by it, or will he go to the country next year to receive a mandate for more significant policy change, so that he doesn’t feel bound by left-wing backbenchers blocking everything with which they disagree?
    Surely the shift to Burnham is one for even more tax and spend and more appeasing of leftwing backbenchers
    What is Burnham's Manchesterism in reality?
    A slogan
    Taking back control of the buses and transport integration
    Caving on the Manchester LEZ (maybe irrelevant in medium term with increased vehicle electrification)
    City centre development, mainly high rises

    I hope it isn't so, but it looks like his advantages over Starmer are that he's more personable and media-friendly (for now) but that he's demonstrated as much if not more political cowardice.
    I expect him to be more appeasing of the right wing media than Starmer, neither have demonstrated the steadfastness of Sadiq Khan when confronted with media hostility.
    Burnham's Manchesterism appears to be a bad copy of what happened first in London, from buses to fares and rebuilding, except Burnham caved in on clean air after spending millions on it while London got ULEZ. Burnham's home-building miracle also seems to have gone all through one property developer, Renaker, who not only copped all the money but was also relieved of affordable homes obligations. I wish him well but Manchesterism is greatly oversold imo.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,401
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    'China has hit out at the nationalisation of British Steel, saying it "firmly opposes and is strongly dissatisfied with the British government's decision".

    On Thursday, the UK government said that taking the loss-making firm into public hands would protect jobs and safeguard a "vital national capability".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjd4kvxpd3do

    LOL, Chinese steel good, British steel bad.

    China should be thanking Ed Miliband for making every other heavy industry shut down, not complaining about the last remaining steel works in the country being nationalised for national security reasons because they couldn’t afford the powere bill.
    It's a rather mild protest, really. The question will be if the Chinese do any actual push back. I suspect not - it's a small issue, really.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,590
    tlg86 said:

    It was SKS total and chronic lack of political skills that did for him, not the policies.

    A leader like Tony Blair or David Cameron, carefully preparing the ground, could easily have cut back on WFA, although they'd still have experienced the screams and howls of utterly self-entitled pensioners, they could have weathered them.

    Given it was Cameron who brought in the triple lock, I'm not sure that's true.
    It was the coalition. The Lib Dem’s bear their share of the culpability.
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