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6 months ago Andy Burnham was just a 7.5% chance of becoming the next Prime Minister

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,641

    🚨 Latest Opinium @ObserverUK poll 🚨

    Reform remains ahead, but its vote share has fallen to its lowest level since early January 2025.

    ➡️ Reform 24% (-2)
    🌹 Labour 19% (-1)
    🌳 Conservatives 18% (-1)
    🌍 Greens 16% (+2)
    🔶 Liberal Democrats 12% (+1)

    https://x.com/opiniumresearch/status/2076018690881974697?s=46

    Anyhoo thoughts and prayers for the Labour in third place trend mob.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,642

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I hadn't realised that in addition to being a racist and, at best, incredibly insensitive about victims of gun massacres, Lowe is also an anti-vaxxer moron, but to a degree these things do seem to go together - everythingism, right wing edition.

    This slip of the tongue on one murder vs one mass shooting seems less significant than Lowe describing himself as a “pureblood” because he refused the Covid vaccine.

    He went on to say horse de-wormer Ivermectin was “just as effective” as the vaccine.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/2075506010937045335#m

    It's llke he exists purely to make people realise that Farage is not as bad by comparison.

    That said, anyone who describes Ivermectin as “horse de-wormer”, rather than an invention that earned the Nobel Prize in Medicine and has likely saved millions of lives, is probably best ignored.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/[Ivermectin/
    I know nothing about Ivermectin (though oddly I was once accused here of having been an Ivermectin fan during Covid), but it wouldn't be the first medicine that originally had another quite different application, and that feels like a rather heavy-handed way to imply crankiness.

    I am also not sure we can say too much for the effectiveness of the covid vaccines. Everyone knows people who have had it (yes, I know it's not supposed to make you immune) and had it badly, despite being boosted up to the nines. We can say they'd have had it even worse, but that is largely a question of faith.
    It's not a question of faith, it's a question of statistics. We can see the numbers who are hospitalised or die, and compare with the numbers for the same before the vaccines.

    The comparison is pretty compelling in favour of the vaccines.
    Sure, but as the pandemic progressed, those numbers would have fallen naturally, even without any form of medical intervention - this happens in all epidemics. And with different methods (not ivermectin) in another universe, they might have fallen faster. They might not have. Perhaps the vaccines were the best of all possible worlds. Perhaps they were not. We can't really know.
    Sorry but this is utter garbage.

    According to.the ONS in September of 2021, amongst those who had received the Covid vaccine more than 21 days prior to death, covid only accounted for 0.8% of total deaths. Amongst the same cohort who had not received the covid vaccine, deaths from covid accounted for 37.4% of total deaths.

    Vaccination worked. Anti vaxxers are ill informed morons.
    Why not use overall death rates from the ONS? Deaths in 2021, 2022 and 2023 were only 20,000 less than 2020..🤔
    I am trying to think of a reason why 2020 is a terrible baseline.

    Oh yes, for the majority of 2020 most of us weren't interacting with anybody.
    And there wasn’t much COVID around for a third of the year, or so!
    Feeling that Richard's figures may have included an element of selection bias - those who were already suffering from covid were not vaccinated until they recovered - I queried it with AI. Publishing the response unedited:

    The Flaw in the Raw Percentages
    The statistic you cited compares the proportion of COVID-19 deaths within two very different groups:

    Unvaccinated Group: In mid-2021, this group was disproportionately younger and healthier (as the elderly and vulnerable were prioritized for vaccination). However, they lacked immune protection. Consequently, when they died, COVID-19 was a leading cause (37.4%), simply because they were dying of fewer other age-related causes at that specific time.

    Vaccinated Group (21+ days post-dose): By September 2021, this group included almost the entire elderly and clinically vulnerable population. These individuals have a much higher baseline mortality rate from non-COVID causes (cancer, heart disease, old age). Therefore, even if the vaccine prevented many COVID deaths, the sheer volume of non-COVID deaths in this high-risk group mathematically dilutes the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID (dropping it to 0.8%).

    ONS Clarification and Confounding Factors
    The ONS explicitly stated in their November 2021 analysis that these figures are not a measure of vaccine effectiveness due to several confounding factors:


    Age and Health Status: The vaccinated population was significantly older and frailer than the unvaccinated population during the rollout. Comparing raw death counts or percentages without adjusting for age leads to misleading conclusions.
    Natural Immunity: By September 2021, a portion of the unvaccinated cohort had acquired natural immunity from prior infection, which may have influenced their risk profile, though the ONS noted that vaccination provided a more consistent and safer level of protection.

    Risk vs. Proportion: The correct metric for efficacy is the age-standardized mortality rate (risk of dying per person), not the proportion of total deaths. When adjusted for age, the ONS data showed the risk of dying from COVID-19 was roughly 32 times higher in unvaccinated individuals compared to fully vaccinated individuals during that period.

    Conclusion
    The statistic highlights a demographic reality: vaccinated people were dying of other causes because they were older, not because the vaccine failed. The unvaccinated group appeared to die more frequently of COVID-19 partly because they were less likely to die of other causes during that specific window, but their overall risk of catching and dying from the virus was substantially higher.
    Apparently the ONS has specifically cautioned against using the statistics as proof of vaccine efficacy in the way Richard has attempted.

    Perhaps we should be a little more cautious about describing peoples' posts as 'utter garbage' if we're going to abuse statistics in a way that the producers of those statistics specifically warn against.
    Do you accept that there have been a large number of randomised controlled trials of the vaccines that provide direct evidence that they work?
    I accept/accepted it enough to have two jabs. However, continuing to use and top up what is still a new medication should be carefully weighed with the risk from the disease itself.
    I agree - after 3 jabs, each of which made me quite badly ill for 3 days, I decided the risk of covid no longer warranted a guaranteed 3 day illness.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    🚨 Latest Opinium @ObserverUK poll 🚨

    Reform remains ahead, but its vote share has fallen to its lowest level since early January 2025.

    ➡️ Reform 24% (-2)
    🌹 Labour 19% (-1)
    🌳 Conservatives 18% (-1)
    🌍 Greens 16% (+2)
    🔶 Liberal Democrats 12% (+1)

    https://x.com/opiniumresearch/status/2076018690881974697?s=46

    Disappointing to see the Greens gaining
    We will see if Burnham squeezes the Greens
    Yes, and that’s the noises he’s making at the moment
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    The quickest way to ensure equality on wealth is 100% inheritance tax and most people living in social housing but no party would ever get elected taking all the value of homeowners' properties and the inheritance for their heirs in tax
    There is also a distinction between being “intelligent” and “good at study/exams”. I have loads of doctor friends in multiple disciplines and friends who are crazy high earning partners in law firms who are definitely not the smartest most intellectual people but they are very good at their focus and learning a lot of detail.

    There is no superior type of intelligence really, often horses for courses - book smart v whip smart, analytical v gut.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Whereas the Conservatives are that 1% and want to keep it that way.

    The pie is big enough to give everyone a slice.
    That may have been the case last century it isn't so much now. Harris won the richest voters in 2024, as did Starmer and Macron in France in 2022 and Carney in 2025. Albeit Burnham's shift left might send a few of them back to the Tories
    Is Albeit Burnham the brother of Andy ?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 5,312
    Taz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Never mind vaccines. I think it's about time we debated the pros and cons of lockdown - it's been a few months, I think.

    Then we can move seamlessly on to Brexit.
    Should keep us going until kick-off.

    Janet Daley was ahead of you. Here's her column for today's Telegraph:


    Britain’s mad lockdown experiment has damaged a generation of young people
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/11/mental-health-young-people-lockdown-impact/
    She may well be right but I cannot see what choice they had.
    I don't think the initial lockdown was avoidable. It was shit, but we had no idea about the long-term consequences, no vaccines (or any idea when they might arrive), and no proper understanding of optimal treatment.

    What followed, on the other hand, was a complete clusterfuck.

    80% of the reduction in "R" could probably have been achieved with 20% of the restrictions. (Not *no* restrictions... but fewer restrictions, and with the most destructive and least effective removed. So, there should have been no restrictions whatsoever on meeting up outside for example.)
    Yes they could have been but the govt was cowed by the press, TV pundits and the opposition.

    Every day on the TV people like Piers Morgan would be demanding more and more restrictions.

    Remember SKS labelling one version the ‘Johnson Variant’

    They got some things wrong, beyond the delay in the initial lockdown. I was peeved that golf as a socially distanced sport was banned even for the second and third lockdowns.

    But it wasn't all one way traffic. "Eat Out to Help Out" should never have seen the light of day and was frankly asking for trouble.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,748

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    Taz said:

    Just tried a banana liqueur I brought back from Cape Verde.

    It’s utterly rank. My homemade banana wine is much better.

    I just don’t know where to begin with either of those sentences.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,415
    Taz said:

    glw said:

    Talking of belief and evidence.

    Someone was gasing on about the TNT equivalence of battery storage systems.

    Well, the average petrol station has on its premises the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon’ worth of TNT - as measured in the raw energy equivalence.

    It's bizarre that people are so afraid of batteries*, which have an extremely good safety record on the whole, and yet the same people wouldn't even blink about all sorts of chemicals used in industry, traffic pollution, fuel storage, flooding, and other things that are considerably more dangerous. It's like when a train crashes and people think "I'll drive instead" there's no understanding of the risk just emotions taking over.

    * Battery storage systems don't even need to optimised for mass or volume, and so are free to use batteries that are even safer than the norm, like LFP batteries, and eventually we'll likely see solid state batteries take over, which will probably be about as safe a store of energy as we have got.
    I have a concern about Lithium Ion batteries as, due to work I had to arrange to get spares shipped overseas, and it was drummed into us the risk involved in sending them.

    Also my wife’s cousin, her lad had his house go up in flames due to a battery on his golf trolley of all things, for goodness sake.

    So I’ll excercise caution.
    Lithium batteries are banned as cargo on passenger aircraft, they have to go on cargo aircraft if not shipped by land/sea.

    Most airlines now regulate the size of external battery packs allowed in passenger hand luggage to 10AH, which is relatively small pack these days.

    With the exception of that Samsung phone from a few years ago, most fires are cheap Chinese batteries and cheap Chinese chargers.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    edited 7:27PM
    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    Oh Très Stupide, I’m sure if you had a huge percentage of your skin burnt off so your face was unrecognisable and saw friends burn to death you would be totally ok with a high profile person being a dick about the ultimate cause of you having experienced that trauma.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I hadn't realised that in addition to being a racist and, at best, incredibly insensitive about victims of gun massacres, Lowe is also an anti-vaxxer moron, but to a degree these things do seem to go together - everythingism, right wing edition.

    This slip of the tongue on one murder vs one mass shooting seems less significant than Lowe describing himself as a “pureblood” because he refused the Covid vaccine.

    He went on to say horse de-wormer Ivermectin was “just as effective” as the vaccine.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/2075506010937045335#m

    It's llke he exists purely to make people realise that Farage is not as bad by comparison.

    That said, anyone who describes Ivermectin as “horse de-wormer”, rather than an invention that earned the Nobel Prize in Medicine and has likely saved millions of lives, is probably best ignored.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/[Ivermectin/
    I know nothing about Ivermectin (though oddly I was once accused here of having been an Ivermectin fan during Covid), but it wouldn't be the first medicine that originally had another quite different application, and that feels like a rather heavy-handed way to imply crankiness.

    I am also not sure we can say too much for the effectiveness of the covid vaccines. Everyone knows people who have had it (yes, I know it's not supposed to make you immune) and had it badly, despite being boosted up to the nines. We can say they'd have had it even worse, but that is largely a question of faith.
    The COVID vaccines crushed the death rates to nothing, as they did with serious illness & hospitalisation.

    This is extremely clear, both from the medical trials and the data from actual usage.

    The side effects of the vaccines have also been tracked, in detailed, published data and are in line with other vaccinations.

    So away with your “question of faith” stuff.
    I have not said anything about side effects.

    Regarding the efficacy of vaccines, the studies there are based on modelling non-existent counterfactuals. We had the vaccines. We cannot know with any certainty what would have happened in a world where we didn't.
    No. There were a large number of randomised controlled trials of the vaccines, which are the gold standard for demonstrating a causal relationship.

    Although it’s hardly surprising that someone who denies climate change doesn’t understand science!
    It was a significantly compressed timeline though compared to normal vaccine approval. For obvious reasons. So longer term effects were clearly not able to be understood at the time.

    Still aren’t. We’re living through an extended trial.

    Still needs must.
    One of the main reasons for the compressed timeline was because the UK authorities made the decision to enbed themselvs in the labs to monitir development rather than following the normal course which is to wait for the developer to complete initial tests and they be sent allgthe data for review. It dramatically cut the approval time by removing all the 'dead; time that is normally involved in such a process.

    Yes, I’m well aware thanks. I used to work in Biopharma supply of cleanroom consumables for vaccine production and worked with all of the main vaccine providers bar one.

    The bigger issue was availability of parts and constrained supply. Especially after warp Drive.

    There are also compressed timelines anyway for emergencies like this.

    Still doesn’t change the point the long term effects are not known yet. I was happy to have the jab.
    Pretty much every drug is approved after just a couple of years of testing, so that is going to be true of essentially pharmaceutical.

    What we do know, and the evidence keeps growing every week, is that all causes mortality is much lower for people who got jabbed, than those who didn't.
    More pertinently, the only difference between the vaccines, and other extremely widely used drugs (modern painkillers, for example) which subsequently turn out to have rare side effects, is that the vaccines got to be used by millions of people in a much shorter space of time, and were subject to much tighter post approval analysis, so the side effects were detected - and made public - relatively quickly.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,748
    boulay said:

    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    Oh Très Stupide, I’m sure if you had a huge percentage of your skin burnt off so your face was unrecognisable and saw friends burn to death you would be totally ok with a high profile person being a dick about the ultimate cause of you having experienced that trauma.

    i struggle to see what's being dick about the following comment, but knock yourself out on the outrage bus:
    "it’s not that long ago our two countries were at war, with the Falklands or Malvinas, even before that?"
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    glw said:

    Talking of belief and evidence.

    Someone was gasing on about the TNT equivalence of battery storage systems.

    Well, the average petrol station has on its premises the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon’ worth of TNT - as measured in the raw energy equivalence.

    It's bizarre that people are so afraid of batteries*, which have an extremely good safety record on the whole, and yet the same people wouldn't even blink about all sorts of chemicals used in industry, traffic pollution, fuel storage, flooding, and other things that are considerably more dangerous. It's like when a train crashes and people think "I'll drive instead" there's no understanding of the risk just emotions taking over.

    * Battery storage systems don't even need to optimised for mass or volume, and so are free to use batteries that are even safer than the norm, like LFP batteries, and eventually we'll likely see solid state batteries take over, which will probably be about as safe a store of energy as we have got.
    I have a concern about Lithium Ion batteries as, due to work I had to arrange to get spares shipped overseas, and it was drummed into us the risk involved in sending them.

    Also my wife’s cousin, her lad had his house go up in flames due to a battery on his golf trolley of all things, for goodness sake.

    So I’ll excercise caution.
    Lithium batteries are banned as cargo on passenger aircraft, they have to go on cargo aircraft if not shipped by land/sea.

    Most airlines now regulate the size of external battery packs allowed in passenger hand luggage to 10AH, which is relatively small pack these days.

    With the exception of that Samsung phone from a few years ago, most fires are cheap Chinese batteries and cheap Chinese chargers.
    There’s also cheap Chinese chargers that are a problem. My Mother in Law knew someone who had a charger go up.

    Fortunately they were there at the time,
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,657
    edited 7:30PM
    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    It was a bleak day in our Country's history and for the Welsh Guards including Simon was tragic and actually happened on my daughters 9th birthday

    The memory of those pictures lives long in Wales and certainly you should read the actual history of that day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61551116
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,561

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I hadn't realised that in addition to being a racist and, at best, incredibly insensitive about victims of gun massacres, Lowe is also an anti-vaxxer moron, but to a degree these things do seem to go together - everythingism, right wing edition.

    This slip of the tongue on one murder vs one mass shooting seems less significant than Lowe describing himself as a “pureblood” because he refused the Covid vaccine.

    He went on to say horse de-wormer Ivermectin was “just as effective” as the vaccine.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/2075506010937045335#m

    It's llke he exists purely to make people realise that Farage is not as bad by comparison.

    That said, anyone who describes Ivermectin as “horse de-wormer”, rather than an invention that earned the Nobel Prize in Medicine and has likely saved millions of lives, is probably best ignored.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/[Ivermectin/
    I know nothing about Ivermectin (though oddly I was once accused here of having been an Ivermectin fan during Covid), but it wouldn't be the first medicine that originally had another quite different application, and that feels like a rather heavy-handed way to imply crankiness.

    I am also not sure we can say too much for the effectiveness of the covid vaccines. Everyone knows people who have had it (yes, I know it's not supposed to make you immune) and had it badly, despite being boosted up to the nines. We can say they'd have had it even worse, but that is largely a question of faith.
    It's not a question of faith, it's a question of statistics. We can see the numbers who are hospitalised or die, and compare with the numbers for the same before the vaccines.

    The comparison is pretty compelling in favour of the vaccines.
    Sure, but as the pandemic progressed, those numbers would have fallen naturally, even without any form of medical intervention - this happens in all epidemics. And with different methods (not ivermectin) in another universe, they might have fallen faster. They might not have. Perhaps the vaccines were the best of all possible worlds. Perhaps they were not. We can't really know.
    Sorry but this is utter garbage.

    According to.the ONS in September of 2021, amongst those who had received the Covid vaccine more than 21 days prior to death, covid only accounted for 0.8% of total deaths. Amongst the same cohort who had not received the covid vaccine, deaths from covid accounted for 37.4% of total deaths.

    Vaccination worked. Anti vaxxers are ill informed morons.
    Why not use overall death rates from the ONS? Deaths in 2021, 2022 and 2023 were only 20,000 less than 2020..🤔
    I am trying to think of a reason why 2020 is a terrible baseline.

    Oh yes, for the majority of 2020 most of us weren't interacting with anybody.
    And there wasn’t much COVID around for a third of the year, or so!
    Feeling that Richard's figures may have included an element of selection bias - those who were already suffering from covid were not vaccinated until they recovered - I queried it with AI. Publishing the response unedited:

    The Flaw in the Raw Percentages
    The statistic you cited compares the proportion of COVID-19 deaths within two very different groups:

    Unvaccinated Group: In mid-2021, this group was disproportionately younger and healthier (as the elderly and vulnerable were prioritized for vaccination). However, they lacked immune protection. Consequently, when they died, COVID-19 was a leading cause (37.4%), simply because they were dying of fewer other age-related causes at that specific time.

    Vaccinated Group (21+ days post-dose): By September 2021, this group included almost the entire elderly and clinically vulnerable population. These individuals have a much higher baseline mortality rate from non-COVID causes (cancer, heart disease, old age). Therefore, even if the vaccine prevented many COVID deaths, the sheer volume of non-COVID deaths in this high-risk group mathematically dilutes the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID (dropping it to 0.8%).

    ONS Clarification and Confounding Factors
    The ONS explicitly stated in their November 2021 analysis that these figures are not a measure of vaccine effectiveness due to several confounding factors:


    Age and Health Status: The vaccinated population was significantly older and frailer than the unvaccinated population during the rollout. Comparing raw death counts or percentages without adjusting for age leads to misleading conclusions.
    Natural Immunity: By September 2021, a portion of the unvaccinated cohort had acquired natural immunity from prior infection, which may have influenced their risk profile, though the ONS noted that vaccination provided a more consistent and safer level of protection.

    Risk vs. Proportion: The correct metric for efficacy is the age-standardized mortality rate (risk of dying per person), not the proportion of total deaths. When adjusted for age, the ONS data showed the risk of dying from COVID-19 was roughly 32 times higher in unvaccinated individuals compared to fully vaccinated individuals during that period.

    Conclusion
    The statistic highlights a demographic reality: vaccinated people were dying of other causes because they were older, not because the vaccine failed. The unvaccinated group appeared to die more frequently of COVID-19 partly because they were less likely to die of other causes during that specific window, but their overall risk of catching and dying from the virus was substantially higher.
    Apparently the ONS has specifically cautioned against using the statistics as proof of vaccine efficacy in the way Richard has attempted.

    Perhaps we should be a little more cautious about describing peoples' posts as 'utter garbage' if we're going to abuse statistics in a way that the producers of those statistics specifically warn against.
    Do you accept that there have been a large number of randomised controlled trials of the vaccines that provide direct evidence that they work?
    I accept/accepted it enough to have two jabs. However, continuing to use and top up what is still a new medication should be carefully weighed with the risk from the disease itself.
    So you withdraw your earlier comment that the only evidence involves modelling counterfactuals?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,742
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I hadn't realised that in addition to being a racist and, at best, incredibly insensitive about victims of gun massacres, Lowe is also an anti-vaxxer moron, but to a degree these things do seem to go together - everythingism, right wing edition.

    This slip of the tongue on one murder vs one mass shooting seems less significant than Lowe describing himself as a “pureblood” because he refused the Covid vaccine.

    He went on to say horse de-wormer Ivermectin was “just as effective” as the vaccine.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/2075506010937045335#m

    It's llke he exists purely to make people realise that Farage is not as bad by comparison.

    That said, anyone who describes Ivermectin as “horse de-wormer”, rather than an invention that earned the Nobel Prize in Medicine and has likely saved millions of lives, is probably best ignored.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/[Ivermectin/
    I know nothing about Ivermectin (though oddly I was once accused here of having been an Ivermectin fan during Covid), but it wouldn't be the first medicine that originally had another quite different application, and that feels like a rather heavy-handed way to imply crankiness.

    I am also not sure we can say too much for the effectiveness of the covid vaccines. Everyone knows people who have had it (yes, I know it's not supposed to make you immune) and had it badly, despite being boosted up to the nines. We can say they'd have had it even worse, but that is largely a question of faith.
    It's not a question of faith, it's a question of statistics. We can see the numbers who are hospitalised or die, and compare with the numbers for the same before the vaccines.

    The comparison is pretty compelling in favour of the vaccines.
    Sure, but as the pandemic progressed, those numbers would have fallen naturally, even without any form of medical intervention - this happens in all epidemics. And with different methods (not ivermectin) in another universe, they might have fallen faster. They might not have. Perhaps the vaccines were the best of all possible worlds. Perhaps they were not. We can't really know.
    Says the person who this very afternoon was lauding the notion of drawing conclusions from facts rather than just starting with a conclusion you happen to like or rejecting one you don't.

    Chutzpah or what. You should get into populist right wing politics.

    Oh, hang on.
    You can't really accuse me of drawing a conclusion when I've been at pains to suggest we cannot draw one.
    You are rejecting a conclusion that is proven beyond a reasonable doubt by the evidence.

    Why you would do that is a mystery. I don't know the reason and you obviously can't tell me.
    Some people find scientific truth scary, and feel it dis-empowers them.

    Staging a performance of the story The Cold Equations, as a play at university was fascinating in this respect.
    The (largely valid) critiques of that story are also quite enlightening.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Equations
    Hm. This is the first time I've come across that story. But I'd say the critiques are bollocks. Space travel.is arse-clenchingly expensive and you don't carry any weight you don't need to. Adding extra contingency just in case some irresponsiboe idiot creeps aboard would cost millions. Those millions could be spent on keeping people alive. NICE has a formula for working out the monetary value of a human life. She knew it wasn't allowed but she did it anyway, guessing incorrectly that the sanction would be small. The high sanction is a way of making these space flights viable because you wouldn't expect anyone to be so idiotic to use it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,449

    kinabalu said:

    Never mind vaccines. I think it's about time we debated the pros and cons of lockdown - it's been a few months, I think.

    Then we can move seamlessly on to Brexit.
    Should keep us going until kick-off.

    Janet Daley was ahead of you. Here's her column for today's Telegraph:

    Britain’s mad lockdown experiment has damaged a generation of young people
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/11/mental-health-young-people-lockdown-impact/
    "mad lockdown experiment" ... lol

    The Tele. Never knowingly under fruity.
    Well, it was certainly an experiment.
    That's not a fair description. It was a time pressured decision taken to prevent something going from beyond awful to catastrophic.

    But I agree about the impact on young people. They made great sacrifices. We should remember that and repay it.

    Sadly it looks like we have no intention to do this because of voting demographics.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,793

    🚨 Latest Opinium @ObserverUK poll 🚨

    Reform remains ahead, but its vote share has fallen to its lowest level since early January 2025.

    ➡️ Reform 24% (-2)
    🌹 Labour 19% (-1)
    🌳 Conservatives 18% (-1)
    🌍 Greens 16% (+2)
    🔶 Liberal Democrats 12% (+1)

    https://x.com/opiniumresearch/status/2076018690881974697?s=46

    If Reform remain as unpopular with 60%+ of voters as they are now, the next election will be a tactical vote fest of significant proportions. So the figure to look at is not the current lead but the Reform number absolute - which continues fairly stable after its sustained drop from 34 or so but is not enough to cheer them up; and the other, less tangible measure is the degree to which the 60%+ want to make sure Reform lose. That is hard to measure except by feeling the zeitgeist.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360

    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    It was a bleak day in our Country's history and for the Welsh Guards including Simon was tragic and actually happened on my daughters 9th birthday

    The memory of those pictures lives long in Wales and certainly you should read the actual history of that day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61551116
    That’s a bit harder than mocking someone who doesn’t deserve it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,308
    algarkirk said:

    🚨 Latest Opinium @ObserverUK poll 🚨

    Reform remains ahead, but its vote share has fallen to its lowest level since early January 2025.

    ➡️ Reform 24% (-2)
    🌹 Labour 19% (-1)
    🌳 Conservatives 18% (-1)
    🌍 Greens 16% (+2)
    🔶 Liberal Democrats 12% (+1)

    https://x.com/opiniumresearch/status/2076018690881974697?s=46

    If Reform remain as unpopular with 60%+ of voters as they are now, the next election will be a tactical vote fest of significant proportions. So the figure to look at is not the current lead but the Reform number absolute - which continues fairly stable after its sustained drop from 34 or so but is not enough to cheer them up; and the other, less tangible measure is the degree to which the 60%+ want to make sure Reform lose. That is hard to measure except by feeling the zeitgeist.
    The flip side of that is if Reform are on 23 rather than 33 will people care enough to vote tactically against them.......
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,561
    Taz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Never mind vaccines. I think it's about time we debated the pros and cons of lockdown - it's been a few months, I think.

    Then we can move seamlessly on to Brexit.
    Should keep us going until kick-off.

    Janet Daley was ahead of you. Here's her column for today's Telegraph:


    Britain’s mad lockdown experiment has damaged a generation of young people
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/11/mental-health-young-people-lockdown-impact/
    She may well be right but I cannot see what choice they had.
    I don't think the initial lockdown was avoidable. It was shit, but we had no idea about the long-term consequences, no vaccines (or any idea when they might arrive), and no proper understanding of optimal treatment.

    What followed, on the other hand, was a complete clusterfuck.

    80% of the reduction in "R" could probably have been achieved with 20% of the restrictions. (Not *no* restrictions... but fewer restrictions, and with the most destructive and least effective removed. So, there should have been no restrictions whatsoever on meeting up outside for example.)
    Yes they could have been but the govt was cowed by the press, TV pundits and the opposition.

    Every day on the TV people like Piers Morgan would be demanding more and more restrictions.

    Remember SKS labelling one version the ‘Johnson Variant’

    One thing I found interesting from the COVID Inquiry is how clear it was that Johnson was *not* cowed by even his own advisers at times. I think it is a mistake to underestimate the government's autonomous decision making.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,561
    https://youtu.be/nBWgfl7Sm_U

    Trump interfering in Bosnian politics so his friends and family can make money.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,025

    https://youtu.be/nBWgfl7Sm_U

    Trump interfering in Bosnian politics so his friends and family can make money.

    Is that better or worse than interfering in American, Venezuelan and Iranian politics for the same reason?
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,297
    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,657
    Actually on tonight's poll, I would have expected more of a negative effect for Reform and a bounce for labour with Burnham about to relieve Starmer of his duties

    I may be wrong, but just how much attention are the public taking in politics at present

    Certainly, I think the summer polls may well see little movement but once Parliament returns and the conference season gets into fill swing then those trends will be interesting
  • TresTres Posts: 3,748

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    captain of leicestershire schools and played for the mcc
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,025

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    edited 7:46PM
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    Still amuses me that his father was named Neville Neville.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    Still amuses me that his father was named Neville Neville.
    It’s one of those stories you’d think would be BS but isn’t.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,492

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
  • TresTres Posts: 3,748

    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    It was a bleak day in our Country's history and for the Welsh Guards including Simon was tragic and actually happened on my daughters 9th birthday

    The memory of those pictures lives long in Wales and certainly you should read the actual history of that day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61551116
    i guess for the record i should point out he's a war hero or something
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    It was a bleak day in our Country's history and for the Welsh Guards including Simon was tragic and actually happened on my daughters 9th birthday

    The memory of those pictures lives long in Wales and certainly you should read the actual history of that day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61551116
    i guess for the record i should point out he's a war hero or something
    Or you could engage your brain and understand why referring to the Malvinas would be something Simon Weston understandably would be upset about rather than bandying around “snowflake”.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,297
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    edited 7:55PM
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I hadn't realised that in addition to being a racist and, at best, incredibly insensitive about victims of gun massacres, Lowe is also an anti-vaxxer moron, but to a degree these things do seem to go together - everythingism, right wing edition.

    This slip of the tongue on one murder vs one mass shooting seems less significant than Lowe describing himself as a “pureblood” because he refused the Covid vaccine.

    He went on to say horse de-wormer Ivermectin was “just as effective” as the vaccine.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/2075506010937045335#m

    It's llke he exists purely to make people realise that Farage is not as bad by comparison.

    That said, anyone who describes Ivermectin as “horse de-wormer”, rather than an invention that earned the Nobel Prize in Medicine and has likely saved millions of lives, is probably best ignored.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/[Ivermectin/
    I know nothing about Ivermectin (though oddly I was once accused here of having been an Ivermectin fan during Covid), but it wouldn't be the first medicine that originally had another quite different application, and that feels like a rather heavy-handed way to imply crankiness.

    I am also not sure we can say too much for the effectiveness of the covid vaccines. Everyone knows people who have had it (yes, I know it's not supposed to make you immune) and had it badly, despite being boosted up to the nines. We can say they'd have had it even worse, but that is largely a question of faith.
    It's not a question of faith, it's a question of statistics. We can see the numbers who are hospitalised or die, and compare with the numbers for the same before the vaccines.

    The comparison is pretty compelling in favour of the vaccines.
    Sure, but as the pandemic progressed, those numbers would have fallen naturally, even without any form of medical intervention - this happens in all epidemics. And with different methods (not ivermectin) in another universe, they might have fallen faster. They might not have. Perhaps the vaccines were the best of all possible worlds. Perhaps they were not. We can't really know.
    Says the person who this very afternoon was lauding the notion of drawing conclusions from facts rather than just starting with a conclusion you happen to like or rejecting one you don't.

    Chutzpah or what. You should get into populist right wing politics.

    Oh, hang on.
    You can't really accuse me of drawing a conclusion when I've been at pains to suggest we cannot draw one.
    You are rejecting a conclusion that is proven beyond a reasonable doubt by the evidence.

    Why you would do that is a mystery. I don't know the reason and you obviously can't tell me.
    Some people find scientific truth scary, and feel it dis-empowers them.

    Staging a performance of the story The Cold Equations, as a play at university was fascinating in this respect.
    The (largely valid) critiques of that story are also quite enlightening.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Equations
    Hm. This is the first time I've come across that story. But I'd say the critiques are bollocks. Space travel.is arse-clenchingly expensive and you don't carry any weight you don't need to. Adding extra contingency just in case some irresponsiboe idiot creeps aboard would cost millions. Those millions could be spent on keeping people alive. NICE has a formula for working out the monetary value of a human life. She knew it wasn't allowed but she did it anyway, guessing incorrectly that the sanction would be small. The high sanction is a way of making these space flights viable because you wouldn't expect anyone to be so idiotic to use it.
    Sorry, but no.
    Fur a start you're pontificating about the expense of interstellar travel, which doesn't, and may never exist. So the critique that the situation is contrived, in a not dissimilar manner to the trolley problem, remains valid.
    Moreover, even accepting your accounting, why would you not devote a small proportion of that "arse-clenching expense" to better security ?

    It's really a short parable of science being necessary, but not sufficient to good engineering.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,777

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
    That's easy: someone who bet on Barack Obama in 2008, and Donald Trump in 2016.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    Sounds a bit niche ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,308

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
    Shall we look at the leader of the free world to guide us?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    edited 7:59PM
    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,102
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    glw said:

    Talking of belief and evidence.

    Someone was gasing on about the TNT equivalence of battery storage systems.

    Well, the average petrol station has on its premises the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon’ worth of TNT - as measured in the raw energy equivalence.

    It's bizarre that people are so afraid of batteries*, which have an extremely good safety record on the whole, and yet the same people wouldn't even blink about all sorts of chemicals used in industry, traffic pollution, fuel storage, flooding, and other things that are considerably more dangerous. It's like when a train crashes and people think "I'll drive instead" there's no understanding of the risk just emotions taking over.

    * Battery storage systems don't even need to optimised for mass or volume, and so are free to use batteries that are even safer than the norm, like LFP batteries, and eventually we'll likely see solid state batteries take over, which will probably be about as safe a store of energy as we have got.
    I have a concern about Lithium Ion batteries as, due to work I had to arrange to get spares shipped overseas, and it was drummed into us the risk involved in sending them.

    Also my wife’s cousin, her lad had his house go up in flames due to a battery on his golf trolley of all things, for goodness sake.

    So I’ll excercise caution.
    Lithium batteries are banned as cargo on passenger aircraft, they have to go on cargo aircraft if not shipped by land/sea.

    Most airlines now regulate the size of external battery packs allowed in passenger hand luggage to 10AH, which is relatively small pack these days.

    With the exception of that Samsung phone from a few years ago, most fires are cheap Chinese batteries and cheap Chinese chargers.
    There’s also cheap Chinese chargers that are a problem. My Mother in Law knew someone who had a charger go up.

    Fortunately they were there at the time,
    Things not to buy on Amazon:

    Chargers
    Lithium batteries


    I keep my drone batteries in a metal box and usually charge phones on a non-flammable surface or within view. Paranoid? Maybe, maybe not...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,297

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
    Shall we look at the leader of the free world to guide us?
    Well, compasses use magnetism, and that can work by attraction or repulsion...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    Credit where credit is due; GB News is evidently not quite the same as Fox News.
    Can you imagine the latter being even half this honest in reporting an inconvenient piece of evidence ?

    'We have to be honest and say the numbers are down... Part of me would accept some of this "Smash the Gangs" policy is having an effect.'

    Home and Security Editor @MarkWhiteTV gives his analysis of Labour's efforts to tackle small boat migrant crossings on the English Channel.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075525813475148283
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,388
    Taz said:

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    Still amuses me that his father was named Neville Neville.
    It’s one of those stories you’d think would be BS but isn’t.
    I used to know a Morgan Morgan
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,776
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    AIUI they used both.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,657
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    It was a bleak day in our Country's history and for the Welsh Guards including Simon was tragic and actually happened on my daughters 9th birthday

    The memory of those pictures lives long in Wales and certainly you should read the actual history of that day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61551116
    i guess for the record i should point out he's a war hero or something
    He certainly deserves respect
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    glw said:

    Talking of belief and evidence.

    Someone was gasing on about the TNT equivalence of battery storage systems.

    Well, the average petrol station has on its premises the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon’ worth of TNT - as measured in the raw energy equivalence.

    It's bizarre that people are so afraid of batteries*, which have an extremely good safety record on the whole, and yet the same people wouldn't even blink about all sorts of chemicals used in industry, traffic pollution, fuel storage, flooding, and other things that are considerably more dangerous. It's like when a train crashes and people think "I'll drive instead" there's no understanding of the risk just emotions taking over.

    * Battery storage systems don't even need to optimised for mass or volume, and so are free to use batteries that are even safer than the norm, like LFP batteries, and eventually we'll likely see solid state batteries take over, which will probably be about as safe a store of energy as we have got.
    I have a concern about Lithium Ion batteries as, due to work I had to arrange to get spares shipped overseas, and it was drummed into us the risk involved in sending them.

    Also my wife’s cousin, her lad had his house go up in flames due to a battery on his golf trolley of all things, for goodness sake.

    So I’ll excercise caution.
    Lithium batteries are banned as cargo on passenger aircraft, they have to go on cargo aircraft if not shipped by land/sea.

    Most airlines now regulate the size of external battery packs allowed in passenger hand luggage to 10AH, which is relatively small pack these days.

    With the exception of that Samsung phone from a few years ago, most fires are cheap Chinese batteries and cheap Chinese chargers.
    There’s also cheap Chinese chargers that are a problem. My Mother in Law knew someone who had a charger go up.

    Fortunately they were there at the time,
    Things not to buy on Amazon:

    Chargers
    Lithium batteries


    I keep my drone batteries in a metal box and usually charge phones on a non-flammable surface or within view. Paranoid? Maybe, maybe not...
    My wife bought some long lead iPhone chargers on Amazon

    Sadly they got lost,within a week of turning up. She can’t remember where she left them !!!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,308

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
    Shall we look at the leader of the free world to guide us?
    Well, compasses use magnetism, and that can work by attraction or repulsion...
    I didn't know you felt that way about Mr Carney?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,102
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I'm not exactly woke but celebrating slave raiding seems like an interesting choice.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,793

    Actually on tonight's poll, I would have expected more of a negative effect for Reform and a bounce for labour with Burnham about to relieve Starmer of his duties

    I may be wrong, but just how much attention are the public taking in politics at present

    Certainly, I think the summer polls may well see little movement but once Parliament returns and the conference season gets into fill swing then those trends will be interesting

    Almost none judging from the world I live in. The average is made up for by PB posters and assorted lunatics on X and things but that makes no difference.

    It will start up at some point, just as every two years my wife becomes vaguely aware that England have a football team and that on the whole she would rather they won than lost, and will watch the final if we are in it, just as I have watched precisely zero seconds of Wimbledon but have heard of Arthur Fery and would have watched the final had he been in it.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,413
    Nigelb said:

    Credit where credit is due; GB News is evidently not quite the same as Fox News.
    Can you imagine the latter being even half this honest in reporting an inconvenient piece of evidence ?

    'We have to be honest and say the numbers are down... Part of me would accept some of this "Smash the Gangs" policy is having an effect.'

    Home and Security Editor @MarkWhiteTV gives his analysis of Labour's efforts to tackle small boat migrant crossings on the English Channel.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075525813475148283

    I only watch GB News for "research" purposes. :innocent:
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360

    Taz said:

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    Still amuses me that his father was named Neville Neville.
    It’s one of those stories you’d think would be BS but isn’t.
    I used to know a Morgan Morgan
    I’ve only ever known a Cpt Morgan.

    IIrC Van Morrisons wife was Janet Planet.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I'm not exactly woke but celebrating slave raiding seems like an interesting choice.
    Do,we get reparations from them ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    AIUI they used both.
    Perhaps - but it's his attitude I like.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,793
    edited 8:14PM

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I'm not exactly woke but celebrating slave raiding seems like an interesting choice.
    Yes. I want reparations for Lindisfarne, sacked in 793. And Viking longships were fitted with oars as well as sails and a small outboard motor
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,415

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
    Shall we look at the leader of the free world to guide us?
    Well, compasses use magnetism, and that can work by attraction or repulsion...
    Mine just used to draw circles.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    Bad news. Jordan Henderson ruled out.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,788

    Nigelb said:

    Credit where credit is due; GB News is evidently not quite the same as Fox News.
    Can you imagine the latter being even half this honest in reporting an inconvenient piece of evidence ?

    'We have to be honest and say the numbers are down... Part of me would accept some of this "Smash the Gangs" policy is having an effect.'

    Home and Security Editor @MarkWhiteTV gives his analysis of Labour's efforts to tackle small boat migrant crossings on the English Channel.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075525813475148283

    I only watch GB News for "research" purposes. :innocent:
    We all know what else you watch for "research" purposes.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,498

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    glw said:

    Talking of belief and evidence.

    Someone was gasing on about the TNT equivalence of battery storage systems.

    Well, the average petrol station has on its premises the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon’ worth of TNT - as measured in the raw energy equivalence.

    It's bizarre that people are so afraid of batteries*, which have an extremely good safety record on the whole, and yet the same people wouldn't even blink about all sorts of chemicals used in industry, traffic pollution, fuel storage, flooding, and other things that are considerably more dangerous. It's like when a train crashes and people think "I'll drive instead" there's no understanding of the risk just emotions taking over.

    * Battery storage systems don't even need to optimised for mass or volume, and so are free to use batteries that are even safer than the norm, like LFP batteries, and eventually we'll likely see solid state batteries take over, which will probably be about as safe a store of energy as we have got.
    I have a concern about Lithium Ion batteries as, due to work I had to arrange to get spares shipped overseas, and it was drummed into us the risk involved in sending them.

    Also my wife’s cousin, her lad had his house go up in flames due to a battery on his golf trolley of all things, for goodness sake.

    So I’ll excercise caution.
    Lithium batteries are banned as cargo on passenger aircraft, they have to go on cargo aircraft if not shipped by land/sea.

    Most airlines now regulate the size of external battery packs allowed in passenger hand luggage to 10AH, which is relatively small pack these days.

    With the exception of that Samsung phone from a few years ago, most fires are cheap Chinese batteries and cheap Chinese chargers.
    There’s also cheap Chinese chargers that are a problem. My Mother in Law knew someone who had a charger go up.

    Fortunately they were there at the time,
    Things not to buy on Amazon:

    Chargers
    Lithium batteries


    I keep my drone batteries in a metal box and usually charge phones on a non-flammable surface or within view. Paranoid? Maybe, maybe not...
    Anker, ugreen are safe brands - the rest they are cheap for a reason
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,102
    Taz said:

    Bad news. Jordan Henderson ruled out.

    Pity. By being selected as a player he could shout instructions from parts of the pitch that the manager couldn't reach...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,458
    He's starting with Madeuke instead of Saka again.

    Is he blind or just insane?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,726
    Is this because she finally worked out she wasn't ?

    Rachel Reeves has warned the incoming prime minister, Andy Burnham, that he needs to be properly prepared to govern when he arrives in Downing Street in a little more than a week...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwykdvgv4d4o
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,641
    DavidL said:

    He's starting with Madeuke instead of Saka again.

    Is he blind or just insane?

    Sicknote Saka cannot play two full matches in 7 days.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,641
    Nigelb said:

    Is this because she finally worked out she wasn't ?

    Rachel Reeves has warned the incoming prime minister, Andy Burnham, that he needs to be properly prepared to govern when he arrives in Downing Street in a little more than a week...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwykdvgv4d4o

    She thinks Andy Burnham may keep her on as Chancellor because far too many people cannot stomach the idea of Ed Miliband as Chancellor.

    Rachel Reeves has not given up on surviving as chancellor

    She may have been the least popular chancellor in history, but the ‘Anyone But Ed Miliband’ gang has struggled to agree on an alternative


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/rachel-reeves-chancellor-andy-burnham-cabinet-chances-vs5hjt7d9
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    boulay said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ITV showing Gary Linekers Box

    I’ll Give it a miss.

    I never knew he played cricket.
    That was Gary Neville.

    (Yes, really.)
    Still amuses me that his father was named Neville Neville.
    It’s one of those stories you’d think would be BS but isn’t.
    I used to know a Morgan Morgan
    I’ve only ever known a Cpt Morgan.

    IIrC Van Morrisons wife was Janet Planet.
    The head of Art School at my old school was a fantastic man named Art (Arthur) Morgan which always gently amused me. His deputy was Larry Wolff, son of Professor Heinz Wolff - looked exactly like each other. Between them and the other art dons it was a great place to spend time.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 6,102
    DavidL said:

    He's starting with Madeuke instead of Saka again.

    Is he blind or just insane?

    Saka didn't really last the game as he isn't fully fit. He will have more impact in the last 20 minutes when the opposition are tired.

    Tuchel seems prepared to take more risks than Southgate.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360

    DavidL said:

    He's starting with Madeuke instead of Saka again.

    Is he blind or just insane?

    Sicknote Saka cannot play two full matches in 7 days.
    Is Nut Saka an impact player now.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 73,151
    Widdecombe has turned into yet another battleground of the bloody culture war.

    How long before Net Zero is to blame for her death??


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    15m
    Allison, this is a murder case. The alleged perpetrator is still at large. You are not involved in the investigation. You are not a police officer. You do not have any of the relevant facts. Let the police do their job.

    Allison Pearson
    @AllisonPearson
    Ann Widdecombe had several cameras on her property.

    The police need to release the CCTV from Wednesday lunchtime/afternoon so the public can help them identify her alleged killer.

    What’s the problem? He is dangerous and needs to be found.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,360
    Oh god, if we lose today we get that ruddy twit of a commentator being rehashed.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 29,195
    Taz said:

    🚨 Latest Opinium @ObserverUK poll 🚨

    Reform remains ahead, but its vote share has fallen to its lowest level since early January 2025.

    ➡️ Reform 24% (-2)
    🌹 Labour 19% (-1)
    🌳 Conservatives 18% (-1)
    🌍 Greens 16% (+2)
    🔶 Liberal Democrats 12% (+1)

    https://x.com/opiniumresearch/status/2076018690881974697?s=46

    Disappointing to see the Greens gaining
    One swallow doesn't make (or break) a summer. Greens did well after Polanski's election, harvesting discontents from the left bloc. This gave them good numbers and good results in May. Then as Zac came under inspection (TL:DR - he's an idiot) and concerns grew over antisemitism, it started to drop back down. When Starmer was defenestrated, that cemented the trend. But if Burnham fails to be the Infinite Leftist, then some numbers may creep back to Green. Plus there is always the weird Reform-to-Green transfers.

    Whether this manifests in an election (people behave differently between elections than when they do during elections) is not known. Your guess is as good as mine.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,793

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    Chameleon said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Does Socialism boil down to: "If one person is poor, everyone should be poor"?

    No. "If nine people are poor and one person is wealthy, ten people could be comfortably off."
    They want 99 people to be poor and one weathly, and they want to be that 1%.
    Or, at best, "it's better that everyone loses as long as the rich lose most than everyone gaining if the rich gain most".
    Here's a challenge for the PB righties. Come up with a non-caricatured summary of left-wing politics on the basis of an assumption of good faith among lefties.

    I think I made a pretty good attempt of describing the essence of Tory ideology the other day, without restoring to caricature. Can any of you do the same?
    Every person deserves to enjoy a dignified, broadly equal standard of living, with those who are more able or driven paying more to support those who are less able to contribute. Each person is a blank slate and as such should not benefit from their parents' wealth accumulation or other advantages conferred by linage.

    Feels pretty close.

    The first sentence is a decent attempt, but it makes the second redundant.
    I'd say the second is essential - a key part of modern left wing thought is the fungibility of humans - a 10th generation 60km from Mogadishu subsistence farmer is there because they never got the opportunity or support of someone who went to Eton and then did good, so that entirely explains their differences, rather than acknowledging that actually in a lot of cases, while there is a large amount of intergeneration variability, IQ is extremely heritable. That's why there's so much bleating about private school overrepresentation - if people used their common sense to see that humans are not a blank slate private school overrepresentation makes absolutely perfect sense.
    Estimates of the heritability of IQ are about 50%, which I wouldn’t call “extremely”. IQ has a correlation with income of about 0.3-0.4, so it explains about 10-15% of variation in income. The correlation between IQ and wealth is even lower, about 0.16, so it explains about 3% of the variation in wealth.

    The fact IQ only explains about 3% of the variation in wealth, doesn’t that make you more sympathetic to socialist views? Our current system isn’t rewarding ability or merit!
    Plenty of the highest paid people on the rich lists did jobs which don't need especially high IQs, business founders and entrepreneurs, Premier League footballers, F1 drivers, pop stars, Hollywood actors, stockbrokers. They need some ability and merit and hard work certainly but beyond a skill in their particular field they don't need a very high overall IQ.

    Plenty with the highest IQs will become academics, a solid middle class job but not particularly highly paid. Some will be doctors and lawyers but beyond commercial and tax lawyers or Harley Street doctors with mainly private clients, a doctor or surgeon working mainly in the NHS isn't going to be very highly paid. Nor is a lawyer doing legal aid work or working for the CPS or in human rights going to be in the top 1% of earners, certainly not unless they make KC.

    Comparing your first and second paragraphs, why should some of the most successful people in business and sport even bother about some who have the higher IQ as if it is some gold standard of success when in practical terms they are more successful
    In terms of making money and their field yes, though if you want to win a Nobel Prize as your measure of success having the highest IQ will still help
    Which points to the difficult, but ultimate, question- what is a successful life, anyway?

    In some fields, it's easy. But even in something like business, is it better to be detested but rich or loved and comfortable? Mr Potter or Mr Bailey? It's not black and white, but I'm not sure our society has a good compass to use to navigate.
    Central to 'After Virtue', an ethical masterpiece by Alasdair MacIntyre, is the thesis that we have forgotten our compass but had good ones until the enlightenment. They were the New Testament (obvs) and Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. FWIW I think he's on the right lines though the objections are rather obvious. Worth a read.

    BTW the idea that success in life is something to do with money is risible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,514
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    🚨 Latest Opinium @ObserverUK poll 🚨

    Reform remains ahead, but its vote share has fallen to its lowest level since early January 2025.

    ➡️ Reform 24% (-2)
    🌹 Labour 19% (-1)
    🌳 Conservatives 18% (-1)
    🌍 Greens 16% (+2)
    🔶 Liberal Democrats 12% (+1)

    https://x.com/opiniumresearch/status/2076018690881974697?s=46

    Disappointing to see the Greens gaining
    We will see if Burnham squeezes the Greens
    I have a feeling he will, they have gone a bit quiet even if that poll shows them gaining. But Andy needs to grab their attention quick so they think the direction has changed, even if it hasn't much - probably why he was talking about Israel the other day.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,748
    boulay said:

    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    I was 18 and doing my 'A' level exams when terrible tragedy happened to Simon Weston. I have memories of documentaries that followed his story.

    So to see him now still standing, no matter what the argument, has frankly taken my breath away.


    GB News
    @GBNEWS

    ‘Childish…learn some history!’

    Falklands war veteran Simon Weston slams Gary Lineker for using the Argentinian word to describe the islands.

    https://x.com/GBNEWS/status/2075946618801795177

    bloody snowflake
    It was a bleak day in our Country's history and for the Welsh Guards including Simon was tragic and actually happened on my daughters 9th birthday

    The memory of those pictures lives long in Wales and certainly you should read the actual history of that day

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61551116
    i guess for the record i should point out he's a war hero or something
    Or you could engage your brain and understand why referring to the Malvinas would be something Simon Weston understandably would be upset about rather than bandying around “snowflake”.
    if he wants to be a mouthpiece for a foreign owned news channel spreading bile all over the nation's airwaves he can tolerate some hurty words on the internet
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,514
    edited 8:28PM

    https://youtu.be/nBWgfl7Sm_U

    Trump interfering in Bosnian politics so his friends and family can make money.

    Well, why restrict it to the USA? That's just leaving money on the table.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,441

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    AIUI they used both.
    Pretending to sail doesn't have the same visual effect.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 48,196
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I thought most longships used sails and oars? That was their great versatility and part of the reason they navigated the rivers of Europe all the way to Miklagard
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,514

    Taz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Taz said:

    Never mind vaccines. I think it's about time we debated the pros and cons of lockdown - it's been a few months, I think.

    Then we can move seamlessly on to Brexit.
    Should keep us going until kick-off.

    Janet Daley was ahead of you. Here's her column for today's Telegraph:


    Britain’s mad lockdown experiment has damaged a generation of young people
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/07/11/mental-health-young-people-lockdown-impact/
    She may well be right but I cannot see what choice they had.
    I don't think the initial lockdown was avoidable. It was shit, but we had no idea about the long-term consequences, no vaccines (or any idea when they might arrive), and no proper understanding of optimal treatment.

    What followed, on the other hand, was a complete clusterfuck.

    80% of the reduction in "R" could probably have been achieved with 20% of the restrictions. (Not *no* restrictions... but fewer restrictions, and with the most destructive and least effective removed. So, there should have been no restrictions whatsoever on meeting up outside for example.)
    Yes they could have been but the govt was cowed by the press, TV pundits and the opposition.

    Every day on the TV people like Piers Morgan would be demanding more and more restrictions.

    Remember SKS labelling one version the ‘Johnson Variant’

    One thing I found interesting from the COVID Inquiry is how clear it was that Johnson was *not* cowed by even his own advisers at times. I think it is a mistake to underestimate the government's autonomous decision making.
    Which is a good thing - whether some right decisions or wrong decisions were made, judgement calls needed to be made (it was not as simple as simply 'following the science', even when indeed making sure to assess the science properly), and political leaders need to be able to make judgement calls and not simply delegate their decision to someone else.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,514
    edited 8:34PM

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I thought most longships used sails and oars? That was their great versatility and part of the reason they navigated the rivers of Europe all the way to Miklagard
    Must have been some bloody strong wind is all.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,742

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I thought most longships used sails and oars? That was their great versatility and part of the reason they navigated the rivers of Europe all the way to Miklagard
    Typically, Swedes rowed, Norwegians sailed. But you are right that they could both do both, and did, depending on the situation.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,626
    edited 8:38PM

    Widdecombe has turned into yet another battleground of the bloody culture war.

    How long before Net Zero is to blame for her death??


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    15m
    Allison, this is a murder case. The alleged perpetrator is still at large. You are not involved in the investigation. You are not a police officer. You do not have any of the relevant facts. Let the police do their job.

    Allison Pearson
    @AllisonPearson
    Ann Widdecombe had several cameras on her property.

    The police need to release the CCTV from Wednesday lunchtime/afternoon so the public can help them identify her alleged killer.

    What’s the problem? He is dangerous and needs to be found.

    Evidently the police do have CCTV footage of the perpetrator, because they have said that they are (still) looking for a white male. They think at the moment that they can nab him without sharing the information with the public. We shall see if that is right, or if he continues to evade them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,514
    theakes said:

    Trump will declare election result in November rigged and will impose MARTIAL LAW IN DEMOCRATIC WINNING STATES AND IMMEDIATELY MOVE TO INCARCERATE LEADING DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND SENATE.

    South Korean situation repeated, he will not have a problem with his supplicant Republican representatives. The streets will almost certainly run with blood.

    God help us all.

    I don't know if that will be the exact situation, but I expect some increasingly obvious interference if he is truly concerned with the outcome. Both sides have been busy trying to gerrymander like crazy to help things out, and various other legal and operational hurdles have been tried in advance by the White House, so it seems implausible they wouldn't try something at the time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,250
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    I hadn't realised that in addition to being a racist and, at best, incredibly insensitive about victims of gun massacres, Lowe is also an anti-vaxxer moron, but to a degree these things do seem to go together - everythingism, right wing edition.

    This slip of the tongue on one murder vs one mass shooting seems less significant than Lowe describing himself as a “pureblood” because he refused the Covid vaccine.

    He went on to say horse de-wormer Ivermectin was “just as effective” as the vaccine.

    https://nitter.poast.org/tomhfh/status/2075506010937045335#m

    It's llke he exists purely to make people realise that Farage is not as bad by comparison.

    That said, anyone who describes Ivermectin as “horse de-wormer”, rather than an invention that earned the Nobel Prize in Medicine and has likely saved millions of lives, is probably best ignored.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/[Ivermectin/
    I know nothing about Ivermectin (though oddly I was once accused here of having been an Ivermectin fan during Covid), but it wouldn't be the first medicine that originally had another quite different application, and that feels like a rather heavy-handed way to imply crankiness.

    I am also not sure we can say too much for the effectiveness of the covid vaccines. Everyone knows people who have had it (yes, I know it's not supposed to make you immune) and had it badly, despite being boosted up to the nines. We can say they'd have had it even worse, but that is largely a question of faith.
    It's not a question of faith, it's a question of statistics. We can see the numbers who are hospitalised or die, and compare with the numbers for the same before the vaccines.

    The comparison is pretty compelling in favour of the vaccines.
    Sure, but as the pandemic progressed, those numbers would have fallen naturally, even without any form of medical intervention - this happens in all epidemics. And with different methods (not ivermectin) in another universe, they might have fallen faster. They might not have. Perhaps the vaccines were the best of all possible worlds. Perhaps they were not. We can't really know.
    Says the person who this very afternoon was lauding the notion of drawing conclusions from facts rather than just starting with a conclusion you happen to like or rejecting one you don't.

    Chutzpah or what. You should get into populist right wing politics.

    Oh, hang on.
    You can't really accuse me of drawing a conclusion when I've been at pains to suggest we cannot draw one.
    You are rejecting a conclusion that is proven beyond a reasonable doubt by the evidence.

    Why you would do that is a mystery. I don't know the reason and you obviously can't tell me.
    Some people find scientific truth scary, and feel it dis-empowers them.

    Staging a performance of the story The Cold Equations, as a play at university was fascinating in this respect.
    The (largely valid) critiques of that story are also quite enlightening.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Equations
    Hm. This is the first time I've come across that story. But I'd say the critiques are bollocks. Space travel.is arse-clenchingly expensive and you don't carry any weight you don't need to. Adding extra contingency just in case some irresponsiboe idiot creeps aboard would cost millions. Those millions could be spent on keeping people alive. NICE has a formula for working out the monetary value of a human life. She knew it wasn't allowed but she did it anyway, guessing incorrectly that the sanction would be small. The high sanction is a way of making these space flights viable because you wouldn't expect anyone to be so idiotic to use it.
    To start with, interstellar flight doesn’t exist yet. So we have no way to talk about the limits of the technology. So complaining about the parameters of the problem is to miss the point.

    We can take a moral problem in a future society and discuss it, though.

    The critiques of the story often sound like desperate attempt to deny that the problem could ever be a valid issue. To avoid the point of the story - reality doesn’t care what you want. Which is distressing to many people.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,688

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I thought most longships used sails and oars? That was their great versatility and part of the reason they navigated the rivers of Europe all the way to Miklagard
    Either way its just a poor imitation of the Icelandic thunderclap.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,413
    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    This is rapidly going to become as tedious as the Haka

    https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2075965954828456255/video/1?s=61

    I like the Norwegian supporter who refuses to participate, since the Viking used sails rather than oars.
    I thought most longships used sails and oars? That was their great versatility and part of the reason they navigated the rivers of Europe all the way to Miklagard
    Either way its just a poor imitation of the Icelandic thunderclap.
    [Scouse accent] "Iceland? Who are they?"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,664
    @thetimes

    🔺 EXCLUSIVE: The convicted fraudster George Cottrell had access to Nigel Farage’s emails, and covered party costs without the Electoral Commission knowing

    https://x.com/thetimes/status/2076045113768219098?s=20
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,308

    Heh.


    Pretty good. Shame they misspelt count though.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,583
    When are we cancelling the vikings for being all rapey and pillagey?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,458
    carnforth said:

    When are we cancelling the vikings for being all rapey and pillagey?

    And they probably owe us a fortune in reparations for the slaves they took.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,664
    carnforth said:

    When are we cancelling the vikings for being all rapey and pillagey?

    @Vikinghistory
    \
    🇳🇴🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿Norway vs England tonight. English fans will spend 90 minutes shouting in a language full of our words.

    The Angles who gave England its name sailed from the Jutland peninsula, right next door to us. Four centuries later, Norse settlers crossed the same sea and took the north and east of England.

    The evidence never left. They, them and their are Old Norse words. So are sky, egg, knife and anger. Window comes from vindauga, wind-eye.

    And more than 600 English place names end in -by. Grimsby. Derby. Whitby. By is still the Norwegian word for town.

    https://x.com/Vikinghistory/status/2075974546440569029?s=20
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,413
    Catch me if you can
    Cos I'm the England man
    And what you're looking at
    Is the master plan
    We ain't no hooligans
    This ain't a football song
    Three lions on my chest
    I know we can't go wrong!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202

    Heh.


    Pretty good. Shame they misspelt count though.
    Also misspelt Dumbass.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,202
    Scott_xP said:

    carnforth said:

    When are we cancelling the vikings for being all rapey and pillagey?

    @Vikinghistory
    \
    🇳🇴🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿Norway vs England tonight. English fans will spend 90 minutes shouting in a language full of our words.

    The Angles who gave England its name sailed from the Jutland peninsula, right next door to us. Four centuries later, Norse settlers crossed the same sea and took the north and east of England.

    The evidence never left. They, them and their are Old Norse words. So are sky, egg, knife and anger. Window comes from vindauga, wind-eye.

    And more than 600 English place names end in -by. Grimsby. Derby. Whitby. By is still the Norwegian word for town.

    https://x.com/Vikinghistory/status/2075974546440569029?s=20
    I thought England was Danish Vikings, Scotland the Norwegian Vikings and Russia, Ukraine and south Swedish?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,641
    boulay said:

    Heh.


    Pretty good. Shame they misspelt count though.
    Also misspelt Dumbass.
    It is Dumas is pronounced Dumb Ass.

    Have you never watched The Shawshank Redemption?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,626
    Scott_xP said:

    carnforth said:

    When are we cancelling the vikings for being all rapey and pillagey?

    @Vikinghistory
    \
    🇳🇴🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿Norway vs England tonight. English fans will spend 90 minutes shouting in a language full of our words.

    The Angles who gave England its name sailed from the Jutland peninsula, right next door to us. Four centuries later, Norse settlers crossed the same sea and took the north and east of England.

    The evidence never left. They, them and their are Old Norse words. So are sky, egg, knife and anger. Window comes from vindauga, wind-eye.

    And more than 600 English place names end in -by. Grimsby. Derby. Whitby. By is still the Norwegian word for town.

    https://x.com/Vikinghistory/status/2075974546440569029?s=20
    Let's hope their team is as successful as Harald Hardraada.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,250
    boulay said:

    Heh.


    Pretty good. Shame they misspelt count though.
    Also misspelt Dumbass.
    Obvious ref.

    https://youtu.be/K9p9Yr1U2KA?is=UF9diELWZ_fWTLRF
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 80,025
    boulay said:

    Heh.


    Pretty good. Shame they misspelt count though.
    Also misspelt Dumbass.
    Comparing Nigel Farage to a mixed race Frenchman will probably upset him more than anything else.

    Despite the irony that Farage himself is descended from Huguenot immigrants.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 37,388

    Scott_xP said:

    carnforth said:

    When are we cancelling the vikings for being all rapey and pillagey?

    @Vikinghistory
    \
    🇳🇴🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿Norway vs England tonight. English fans will spend 90 minutes shouting in a language full of our words.

    The Angles who gave England its name sailed from the Jutland peninsula, right next door to us. Four centuries later, Norse settlers crossed the same sea and took the north and east of England.

    The evidence never left. They, them and their are Old Norse words. So are sky, egg, knife and anger. Window comes from vindauga, wind-eye.

    And more than 600 English place names end in -by. Grimsby. Derby. Whitby. By is still the Norwegian word for town.

    https://x.com/Vikinghistory/status/2075974546440569029?s=20
    Let's hope their team is as successful as Harald Hardraada.
    Are they playing at Stamford Bridge?
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