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What will this betting market look like next Friday morning? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,187
edited June 12 in General
What will this betting market look like next Friday morning? – politicalbetting.com

Whatever the result in Makerfield next Thursday I expect there will be a major (over)reaction to the result.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,133
    First. I note that Reform’s odds for Makerfield have come in overnight.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,723

    First. I note that Reform’s odds for Makerfield have come in overnight.

    A reaction to the private poll which I am told is a kosher poll.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821
    edited June 12
    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821

    First. I note that Reform’s odds for Makerfield have come in overnight.

    A reaction to the private poll which I am told is a kosher poll.
    No pork in it then.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,723
    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government.

    Not as bas as the FIA/FOM

    ICYMI

    I knew something was wrong on Sunday, poor George Russell.

    F1 admits pitlane blunder as Alpine win first stage of Pierre Gasly appeal

    Pitlane speeding penalties cost French driver spot on Monaco GP podium but team win right of review after timing error emerges


    Alpine have won a right of review on Pierre Gasly’s Monaco penalties after Formula One Management (FOM) admitted it inaccurately measured the distance of the pitlane and overestimated the speed of his car.

    Pierre Gasly was one of five drivers — alongside Lewis Hamilton, George Russell, Oscar Piastri and Franco Colapinto — who received penalties for pitlane speeding, which immediately sparked intrigue given it is rare for so many drivers to be punished for the same offence.

    Gasly crossed the line in third, but his two penalties cost him a spot on the podium and demoted him to seventh. He described it as “the hardest day I’ve ever had in F1”.

    Alpine winning the first stage of the hearing was a significant victory in itself given they were required to present a “significant and relevant new element” which wasn’t available to the stewards at the time. This is a notably high bar to pass.

    FOM runs Formula 1 and is owned by Liberty Media, while the FIA is the sport’s governing body. The FIA and its stewards were using the FOM data, as it is the timekeeping supplier for the competition.

    Remarkably, it was revealed in an FIA document as part of the hearing that “FOM, as Official Timekeeping Supplier to the Competition, provided evidence that the distance used in calculating the F1 Official Timing (and hence the pitlane speed) was inaccurate and overestimated the speed of Car 10 [Gasly]”

    That would most likely mean that all the drivers penalised were in fact not speeding, as many of them insisted directly after the race, given they all have a pitlane speed limiter they press. It is another example of the remarkable bad luck that Russell, in particular, has had this season.

    His first five-second penalty for pitlane speeding was not served, resulting in a drive-through penalty that left him out of the points entirely. If the distance had been calculated correctly, it is likely he would not have had the initial penalty at all.


    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/formula-one/article/pitlane-blunder-alpine-win-first-stage-pierre-gasly-appeal-m6khlr5cc
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,438
    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    All SKS wants to do is defend his job
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government.

    Not as bas as the FIA/FOM

    ICYMI

    I knew something was wrong on Sunday, poor George Russell.

    F1 admits pitlane blunder as Alpine win first stage of Pierre Gasly appeal

    Pitlane speeding penalties cost French driver spot on Monaco GP podium but team win right of review after timing error emerges
    Yeah that was a total screwup. All but one of the penalties had a speed of 60.1km/h, which I worked out was a distance of 83mm over 50m. I think they measured the distance along a curved centre line of the pit lane, when drivers could legally take a straighter line. The pit lane exit was more curved than usual this year, as they’d added an extra pit box for Cadillac.

    Russell was unlucky to get the original penalty, and even more unlucky when Mercedes made a rare mistake and screwed up the pit stop as it related to the penalty.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,044
    I work adjacent to construction and April was very quiet but May and June have been manic
  • eekeek Posts: 33,979
    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821
    This morning’s Russian oil refinery on fire is in Nizhnekamsk, more than 1,000km from Ukraine.

    https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/2065314359580979449

    Meanwhile, the starving out of the Russian army in Crimea is going well. After one bridge got blown the other day, the idiots had a convoy of 50 trucks carrying fuel and weapons driving around in a close convoy. Clearly not having learned the lesson after more than four years of war, said convoy of course got droned to oblivion!

    https://x.com/tkouilou/status/2065111993371988241

    Pretty much the only option now is to start using the Kerch Bridge for fuel deliveries, perhaps by train. The Ukranians are looking forward to that day with interest. Anyone with fuel in their car would be best to leave Crimea now.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,044

    First. I note that Reform’s odds for Makerfield have come in overnight.

    A reaction to the private poll which I am told is a kosher poll.
    Showing a Reform win?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,971
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    And Reform are friends with Putin which is a lot cheaper than 5% of GDP on defence spending.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,723

    First. I note that Reform’s odds for Makerfield have come in overnight.

    A reaction to the private poll which I am told is a kosher poll.
    Showing a Reform win?
    No, this poll.

    https://www.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2026/06/11/private-polling-klaxon/
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,528

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    And Reform are friends with Putin which is a lot cheaper than 5% of GDP on defence spending.
    Not in the long run.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 115
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,456
    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,835
    Dopermean said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    How. How is it possible that only two years after a landslide win this Labour government is collapsing in chaos?

    Starmer is a very poor leader. Like, really poor. (I'm sure a better writer than me could come up with a Hitchhiker's style soliloquy about how mind-bendingly poor Starmer has been.)

    He only won a landslide because he was up against the weakest performance by the Tory party in its history, after that party foisted a Prime Minister onto the country so inept they had to replace her in less than 50 days.

    In those circumstances any averagely competent leader would have won a landslide of Baldwin (1931) proportions.

    The landslide that Starmer did win probably bought him an extra year as PM. That and the split and weak nature of the opposition.

    I have my doubts about Burnham. And I think Labour should be working out what to do different rather than concentrate on who to do it differently with. But Starmer is actively making the situation worse and has to go.
    If you were Labour leader and looking a year or two away from a GE in which the worst combination of Liz Truss shite/Johnson open borders/Sunak mud sludge do nothing policy other than AI was the opposition --- would you not sit down with the great and the good in policy world and actually construction a manifesto and political economy policy that mattered??

    But he couldn't do that because Labour is a socialist party and socialism doesn't work, as has been obvious since at least 1989.

    To work economically, any such policy would have to involve some combination of deregulation, lower taxes and lower welfare spending.

    But the activists and many MPs are still socialist, so the leadership's only recourse is a kind of weird doublethink, where they pretend they have a growth strategy while sabotaging the economy with endless tax rises and welfare spending, which infuriates the right, white leaving just enough of a free market to keep the economy stagnant rather than collapsing, which outrages the left.

    And, unsurprisingly, nobody is happy.
    Labour came in on Change. They are failing to Change. And somehow you think more of the same failing to Change is going to help.

    I mean really, deregulation? Deregulation has given us the water industry. It’s given us the Fossil Fuel Industry with andd its authoritarian hideousness and climate change. Deregulation is not a panacea. It’s an utter fucking disaster for environment and humanity.

    Tired old ideas from Labour and the right’s endemic corruption are supporting a genocide. FFS, blaming welfare recipients is so short sighted it cause me to face palm.

    Change is required.
    The water industry deregulated?

    You must be joking.

    I actually know a lot about the industry's regulation professionally and it's incredibly heavily regulated. In fact, water companies answer to no fewer than seven regulators. So many that not even I can remember them all (Ofwat, DWI, RAPID, the Environment Agency, the National Rivers Authority are the ones I dealt with).

    Similar with the energy industry - what do you think the 2,200 people in Ofgem do all day?

    And the financial services industry.

    The problem with many of those industries is not inadequate regulation, it's incompetent regulation.

    Very different. And it doesn't change the fact that excessive regulation, which many industries do suffer from (housing is a particularly glaring example) and taxes strangle economic growth.
    It doesn't stop them taking any opportunity to pump untreated water into the rivers and sea though does it. The fundamental problem is that the water companies are ethically bereft profit maximising companies that the regulators struggle to regulate. Renationalise them and make the target not pumping untreated water into rivers and sea.
    Because the rivers were cleaner when the water firms were nationalised? 🤦‍♂️
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,023
    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    If you're S Korea, and don't want to be N Korea ?
    Probably.

    If you're Ireland or Switzerland, probably not...

    Also, you don't measure priorities in absolute levels of spending, but rather in relative rates of change in existing spending.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    Not surprising when they live in a country where they get firebombed out of their homes by mobs with guns.......
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    algarkirk said:

    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.

    Pretty well what I expected.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,438
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    If you're S Korea, and don't want to be N Korea ?
    Probably.

    If you're Ireland or Switzerland, probably not...

    Also, you don't measure priorities in absolute levels of spending, but rather in relative rates of change in existing spending.
    Talking of S Korea the KOSPI has been nuts this week
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    How much of GDP should we be spending on defending ourselves from AI if we spend 3.5% defending ourselves from mostly Russia? How much are we spending?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,878
    algarkirk said:

    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.

    It look to me like naked leadership ambition. Same as Burnham but with less substance to go with it.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,188
    FPT Water companies and Ofwat.
    Ofwat have only been able to control water company dividends since 2023, so unless anyone can point to Ofwat powers predating that, there was sweet FA Ofwat could do about the wholesale borrowing and dividend extraction prior to that.
    There is no "clever financing" about leveraging a company's assets and revenue stream to the max and taking all the money out. It's the same PE model that's in play from football clubs, pubs, care homes, water companies etc, the big plus with a water company is the Government has no option but to bail you out.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,485

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    Crime is naturally a higher priority than war until war threatens.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    Not surprising when they live in a country where they get firebombed out of their homes by mobs with guns.......
    Many of them don't live in that country:
    ..Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast...

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,023
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.

    It look to me like naked leadership ambition. Same as Burnham but with less substance to go with it.
    Less substance than Burnham.

    Ouch
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,023
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,456

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    It's a useful cliche operating as a simplification. The ordering of departments into an order of priority is a less useful cliche because it compares incommensurable things. Pot holes, social care and teaching maths to six year olds are not comparable projects.

    'Defence' is perhaps the most obvious single word to describe the purpose and limits of a nation state government government. Within it all other major aspects of government are contained.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,188
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    It's the reason for NATO and, potentially, a European grouping, far cheaper to commit to a mutual defense pact.
    It's why it's called a "peace dividend".

    Healey went native, the UK's defense industry worked out that the way it could maximise long term profits was by ensuring that the UK doesn't have a credible military, that and appealing to nationalism at any hint of buying a working alternative from abroad.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,878
    Putting myself in the head of a Labour MP who wants Starmer out but not Burnham in what am I rooting for right now? Two things: I want events to occur that make it crystal clear to Starmer he has to go. I want Burnham to lose the Makerfield byelection.

    Being as disruptive as possible in an anti-Starmer fashion between now and polling day advances both of those objectives, doesn't it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,085
    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    Not ensuring people have enough to eat, or are protected against disease outbreaks?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    Russia are staggering to defeat against Ukraine and their once mighty army has been destroyed but they still have the capacity to cause mischief by interfering with our inter connectors , wind farms and terrorism. They have also learned a lot about drones from the Ukrainians.
    Our priorities should be to ensure that we can stop the shadow fleet using the English Channel whenever they want and to be able to protect our offshore assets as well as our domestic infrastructure. A large conventional military is not what is needed.
    Indeed so. Even with little left of the massive conventional army they once had, there’s still plenty of scope for Russia to cause mischief and we need to be prepared for it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,085

    I work adjacent to construction and April was very quiet but May and June have been manic

    That must be noisy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    Not ensuring people have enough to eat, or are protected against disease outbreaks?
    They’re second and third.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,023

    First. I note that Reform’s odds for Makerfield have come in overnight.

    A reaction to the private poll which I am told is a kosher poll.
    Showing a Reform win?
    No, this poll.

    https://www.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2026/06/11/private-polling-klaxon/
    That will be the poll that Restore will point to when they get more like 2% rather than the 12% indicated?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,528
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    What happens to refugees if no country takes them? Do we drown them at sea? Shoot them?
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 319
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
    My apologies for biting a bit hard - your comment rang out like a bit of a partisan pearl clutching. As you say Ajax was a disaster and is simply one of many. I stopped with a forces mate of mine last week and over several beers he vented about the many disasters within MOD, and the ranks of top brass topping up their forces pensions in jobs with the suppliers.

    I see Dominic Cummings popped up with one of his regular “I told you so”s yesterday. I never know how much to believe - but if you can get past the ego and the odd writing style he does tend to diagnose the issues very well. I tend to be sceptical of his solutions mind.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,335
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    Would agree with this and the 'revolt' seems manufactured. And you know how poorly manufacturing is at the moment. Manufactured for sake of something to say.

    But back on topic. The way the media is piling in against Starmer and Labour would suggest that Thursday will be closer than we think.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,188
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.

    It look to me like naked leadership ambition. Same as Burnham but with less substance to go with it.
    Less substance than Burnham.

    Ouch
    I worked on a Megaproject on the logistics side for a few years, it was stuffed with ex-forces logistics "experts", with one notable exception they were pointless blowhards who were totally irrelevant to the project delivery. Al Carns gives off the same vibes.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,951
    algarkirk said:

    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.

    Strikes me as a bit of a humorless prick who takes himelf very seriously. When the aforementioned hard questions turn up he reverts to his 'service' and how he could make loads more money if hadn't gone into politics.
    Yes matey, but you wouldn't be getting your ego stroked on the national media in that case.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,835

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    What happens to refugees if no country takes them? Do we drown them at sea? Shoot them?
    That's moot since there are country willing to take them.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    AnneJGP said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    Crime is naturally a higher priority than war until war threatens.
    Yet, some people think Trump is not a great President. He does the crime and the wars simultaneously!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,909

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    Not surprising when they live in a country where they get firebombed out of their homes by mobs with guns.......
    1969 - people burnt out of their homes in Belfast
    2026 - people burnt out of their homes in Belfast
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,085
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    How many people died in the Holocaust because of similar approaches in the 1930s?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,951

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    Obviously North Korea is a marvellous model as a country that prioritises defence of the nation (with lots of visible displays of same).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
    My apologies for biting a bit hard - your comment rang out like a bit of a partisan pearl clutching. As you say Ajax was a disaster and is simply one of many. I stopped with a forces mate of mine last week and over several beers he vented about the many disasters within MOD, and the ranks of top brass topping up their forces pensions in jobs with the suppliers.

    I see Dominic Cummings popped up with one of his regular “I told you so”s yesterday. I never know how much to believe - but if you can get past the ego and the odd writing style he does tend to diagnose the issues very well. I tend to be sceptical of his solutions mind.
    It’s not a popular view, but IMHO we need more people like Dominic Cummings around government. Very often making the wrong decision is better than not making a decision, or spending years talking about what the decision should be.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,721
    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me.

    I'm fully supportive therefore of cyber defence capabilities being enhanced (and I imagine we can do a fair bit of damage as well though we don't talk about it) but I sense a broader overplaying of the hand. This isn't Cold War 2.0 and while the nuclear shadow hangs over us every much now as it did then, the reasons why no one uses nuclear weapons now are the same as they ever were.

    What then is the debate really about? Is it about defence or identity? Having (or appearing to have) strong armed forces is often a virility test though as history has often told us simply having the men and the materiel can be more a comfort blanket than a statement of military fact.

    A lot of it is, I think, back to the old questions about struggling to define ourselves - what is Britain? What should it be? What do we want it to be? Indeed, those questions have sat at the core of our national debate for a couple of generations and a lot that has happened (and is happening) flows from them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,878
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Al Carns on R4 Today this morning. two notes: Tremendously matey to the audience. No willingness to say anything that might upset any Labour MP, and referred all hard questions to the PM for that reason, so he had no interest in either untangling or cutting Labour's Gordian knots about money. Not great at appearing to answer hard questions.

    Not as good I had expected.

    It look to me like naked leadership ambition. Same as Burnham but with less substance to go with it.
    Less substance than Burnham.

    Ouch
    Well he's only been a successful reforming leader of Greater Manchester for a decade, working across parties and popular with his electorate, this is true. But it beats Carns for a track record any day of the week.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 2,033
    Presumably we can improve our military capabilities significantly by just buying a metric-tonne of whatever the latest Ukrainian drone technology is at the end of this war?

    No point doing it yet as we're better off them using all the drones they can make on Russia.

    But one the war is complete, I'm sure we'll be high up their order list (as one of the most reliable allies to Ukraine for the war's duration) for delivering us the best they have at that point. Which may well be materially better than what they have today,

    It'll also be a lot cheaper than funnelling money to the usual big projects we do.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me.

    I'm fully supportive therefore of cyber defence capabilities being enhanced (and I imagine we can do a fair bit of damage as well though we don't talk about it) but I sense a broader overplaying of the hand. This isn't Cold War 2.0 and while the nuclear shadow hangs over us every much now as it did then, the reasons why no one uses nuclear weapons now are the same as they ever were.

    What then is the debate really about? Is it about defence or identity? Having (or appearing to have) strong armed forces is often a virility test though as history has often told us simply having the men and the materiel can be more a comfort blanket than a statement of military fact.

    A lot of it is, I think, back to the old questions about struggling to define ourselves - what is Britain? What should it be? What do we want it to be? Indeed, those questions have sat at the core of our national debate for a couple of generations and a lot that has happened (and is happening) flows from them.
    Spot on, it is identity - no one has any interest at all in discussing the real key risks we have as they are either too complex and difficult (AI, biotech) or too boring (infrastructure).
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
    My apologies for biting a bit hard - your comment rang out like a bit of a partisan pearl clutching. As you say Ajax was a disaster and is simply one of many. I stopped with a forces mate of mine last week and over several beers he vented about the many disasters within MOD, and the ranks of top brass topping up their forces pensions in jobs with the suppliers.

    I see Dominic Cummings popped up with one of his regular “I told you so”s yesterday. I never know how much to believe - but if you can get past the ego and the odd writing style he does tend to diagnose the issues very well. I tend to be sceptical of his solutions mind.
    It’s not a popular view, but IMHO we need more people like Dominic Cummings around government. Very often making the wrong decision is better than not making a decision, or spending years talking about what the decision should be.
    Something must be done, now!
  • I think it’s fine for Burnham to U-turn before he’s elected.

    But if it becomes a pattern he’s going to be right back where Sir Keir is now. My alarm bells are ringing that we’re going to open the cabinet and find it empty once again.

    I don’t think he’d have done winter fuel or IHT changes though.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821
    Video of Ukraine’s suicide drones clearing a warehouse of military vehicles.

    https://x.com/414magyarbirds/status/2065337501582086470

    These guys and gals are really good drone pilots, most importantly they know exactly the size of their own aircraft from only the camera view.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,489
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me.

    I'm fully supportive therefore of cyber defence capabilities being enhanced (and I imagine we can do a fair bit of damage as well though we don't talk about it) but I sense a broader overplaying of the hand. This isn't Cold War 2.0 and while the nuclear shadow hangs over us every much now as it did then, the reasons why no one uses nuclear weapons now are the same as they ever were.

    What then is the debate really about? Is it about defence or identity? Having (or appearing to have) strong armed forces is often a virility test though as history has often told us simply having the men and the materiel can be more a comfort blanket than a statement of military fact.

    A lot of it is, I think, back to the old questions about struggling to define ourselves - what is Britain? What should it be? What do we want it to be? Indeed, those questions have sat at the core of our national debate for a couple of generations and a lot that has happened (and is happening) flows from them.
    So much commerce is undertaken by subsea cables that their defence should be the highest priority. A systemic attempt to cut these by shadow fleet vessels is a way to cause us huge economic harm.

    We have seen in Ukraine that Russia has no qualms about war-crime targeting of civilans/civilian infrastructure. They have ballistic missiles that could make a mess of the UK. Do we have any means of preventing this short of threatening nuclear retaliation? Would any of our politicians even threaten that? Ballistic missile defence must be another priority.
  • https://x.com/lbc/status/2065323211718267034

    "Right now, I'm the only person."

    Nigel Farage believes he's got sufficient 'rapport' and 'courage' to become Prime Minister.

    Very odd answer.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,955

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    After all, it's Alan Clark's Diaries where he preens himself as the man who can make tax cuts possible by cutting defence. And that trend has continued for decades.

    Besides, the main thing Britain needs defending from isn't Russian bombs and soldiers, it's Russian and American memes and talking points.

    And that war may already be lost, without us noticing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    We don't need to remove rights we can redraft them.

    State that we will leave ECHR (and any other treaties and conventions that impede) in 2028 unless there is reform along the lines that we want to see. If we do withdraw create new organisation and invite like minded countries to join us.

    That is imo, far better than either the status quo, or just leaving. We do have a duty and responsibility to help refugees but of course we shouldn't be beholden to rules drafted 80 years ago as the only way to manage that duty.
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 319
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me.

    I'm fully supportive therefore of cyber defence capabilities being enhanced (and I imagine we can do a fair bit of damage as well though we don't talk about it) but I sense a broader overplaying of the hand. This isn't Cold War 2.0 and while the nuclear shadow hangs over us every much now as it did then, the reasons why no one uses nuclear weapons now are the same as they ever were.

    What then is the debate really about? Is it about defence or identity? Having (or appearing to have) strong armed forces is often a virility test though as history has often told us simply having the men and the materiel can be more a comfort blanket than a statement of military fact.

    A lot of it is, I think, back to the old questions about struggling to define ourselves - what is Britain? What should it be? What do we want it to be? Indeed, those questions have sat at the core of our national debate for a couple of generations and a lot that has happened (and is happening) flows from them.
    Couldn’t have written it better. Bravo. I do think the risks to us are very different from previous ones - and I have little confidence in the current administration and, in particular, the top brass at MOD to accurately and appropriately diagnose and address those risks.

    And for what its worth I probably have the same or less confidence in all the other contenders for PM (within Labour and beyond) addressing the risks and properly thinking through the place of a post-Brexit Britain in the world - and coming up with a positive case (rather than simply zero-sum debates, blaming others and declinism).

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
    My apologies for biting a bit hard - your comment rang out like a bit of a partisan pearl clutching. As you say Ajax was a disaster and is simply one of many. I stopped with a forces mate of mine last week and over several beers he vented about the many disasters within MOD, and the ranks of top brass topping up their forces pensions in jobs with the suppliers.

    I see Dominic Cummings popped up with one of his regular “I told you so”s yesterday. I never know how much to believe - but if you can get past the ego and the odd writing style he does tend to diagnose the issues very well. I tend to be sceptical of his solutions mind.
    It’s not a popular view, but IMHO we need more people like Dominic Cummings around government. Very often making the wrong decision is better than not making a decision, or spending years talking about what the decision should be.
    Something must be done, now!
    Alternatively, there’s a massive amount of institutional inertia across government, and it’s holding the country back significantly.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,997
    https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/2065325452764307786

    Peter Kyle: the plan is great

    Naga Munchetty: have you seen the plan?

    Kyle: no

    Munchetty: So how do you know its great?

    Peter Kyle: "Because I have faith in a PM.. to fund the plan & design a plan & lead a plan, of course & he is the PM that is fit for the moment we're in"
  • https://x.com/premnsikka/status/2065118197284569533

    Belfast knife suspect won asylum in Britain under 'fast-track' scheme introduced by Tory UK govt.

    Then home secretary Suella Braverman & immigration minister Robert Jenrick – who have both since defected to Reform - oversaw the introduction of the scheme.

    As I’ve said repeatedly, taking Tory MPs was a massive mistake.
  • Burnham has grounds to say he’s more anti-establishment than Reform.

    He’s not been in government for a very long time and has been totally away from the current Labour one.

    Reform has MPs who made current policy and argued for it just two years ago. Huge opening for Burnham here.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    edited June 12

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
    My apologies for biting a bit hard - your comment rang out like a bit of a partisan pearl clutching. As you say Ajax was a disaster and is simply one of many. I stopped with a forces mate of mine last week and over several beers he vented about the many disasters within MOD, and the ranks of top brass topping up their forces pensions in jobs with the suppliers.

    I see Dominic Cummings popped up with one of his regular “I told you so”s yesterday. I never know how much to believe - but if you can get past the ego and the odd writing style he does tend to diagnose the issues very well. I tend to be sceptical of his solutions mind.
    Since the defence review a year ago, Ukraine has stopped sending troops to the UK for training, as what they were learning is obsolete.
    As is much of our existing army structure.

    In spring 2022, a Ukrainian grain trader taped a grenade to a quadcopter that had been filming weddings. That man, Robert "Madiar" Brovdi, is now the commander of Ukraine's drone forces.

    Four years later, Madiar's unit is a separate branch of Ukraine's armed forces. He says it killed or wounded 102,000 Russians in the past 12 months—one in every three Russian soldiers falling on the battlefield, by his count...

    https://x.com/EuromaidanPress/status/2065131997870039061

    We should cancel the Challenger upgrade; I doubt we'll ever again field an MBT in combat.
    Well armoured IFVs still seem to be useful, though.

    Another defence review from our temporary SecDef would be nuts, though.
    Just sort the obvious stuff and wait for a successor.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042

    I think it’s fine for Burnham to U-turn before he’s elected.

    But if it becomes a pattern he’s going to be right back where Sir Keir is now. My alarm bells are ringing that we’re going to open the cabinet and find it empty once again.

    I don’t think he’d have done winter fuel or IHT changes though.

    He has gone too early. What he is good at is listening and responding in a way people like. If he had taken over summer 2027 and called a GE in summer 2028 promising a shiny future and change he would have done well.

    But taking over in 2026 will mean he can't be a change candidate in 2028/9. And with no money and no ideas he is hardly likely to deliver change in between.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,951
    edited June 12
    Sandpit said:

    Video of Ukraine’s suicide drones clearing a warehouse of military vehicles.

    https://x.com/414magyarbirds/status/2065337501582086470

    These guys and gals are really good drone pilots, most importantly they know exactly the size of their own aircraft from only the camera view.

    Practice makes perfect.
    Fittingly this guy was protesting defence budget cuts.

    https://youtu.be/xq7s0Aapc7U?si=0X2zHPfwRC3wJWFG

    (apols for the US voiceover and pronounciation of Norfolk).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,528

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    What happens to refugees if no country takes them? Do we drown them at sea? Shoot them?
    That's moot since there are country willing to take them.
    So our line is we won't take any refugees but other (mostly far poorer and more stretched) countries will? I wonder how long that lasts as an equilibrium.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    If you take that view what rating was the government that dropped troop numbers to the lowest ever level and cut defence spending in real terms? - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

    And don’t give me more dangerous world nonsense - the Iran nuclear deal was back in 2015 and Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 - it was already a dangerous world when the previous Conservative government made their “cuts.” The current government has increased spending, but they are not, it seems, doing so to a level deemed appropriate by the people that want the money.

    Those people may be right, but that is not a given. I certainly do not believe that if given it they will spend it well.
    Oh I’m definitely not letting the last lot off either. If they hadn’t got the hint before, 24th February 2022 should have been a massive wake-up call.

    To his vast credit, PM Johnson stood above most with the initial response to the Ukraine war, but the wider issues over defence, especially in the procurement department, are very much still there. Look at the Ajax debacle for one example, they should have stopped throwing good money after bad some time ago, and ordered vehicles off the shelf from elsewhere. The Koreans have a modern IFV that works, licence their design.

    There is a lot going on in the background that’s not received much publicity, such as collaborations on cheap drone production for Ukraine, but a lot more needs to be done.

    Add the background of the US turning inward when it comes to Europe’s security, after decades of European governments failing to step up to the plate themselves, and a failure to invest becomes critical.
    My apologies for biting a bit hard - your comment rang out like a bit of a partisan pearl clutching. As you say Ajax was a disaster and is simply one of many. I stopped with a forces mate of mine last week and over several beers he vented about the many disasters within MOD, and the ranks of top brass topping up their forces pensions in jobs with the suppliers.

    I see Dominic Cummings popped up with one of his regular “I told you so”s yesterday. I never know how much to believe - but if you can get past the ego and the odd writing style he does tend to diagnose the issues very well. I tend to be sceptical of his solutions mind.
    It’s not a popular view, but IMHO we need more people like Dominic Cummings around government. Very often making the wrong decision is better than not making a decision, or spending years talking about what the decision should be.
    Something must be done, now!
    Alternatively, there’s a massive amount of institutional inertia across government, and it’s holding the country back significantly.
    War has changed massively over the last years, last year even. Some time to reflect and plan is a priority now, even if we have historically been held back by too much inertia.

    I do think it sensible to build and invest in capability and capacity so we can move faster in future. If we are increasing defence budgets now that is what it should go on, rather than building more stuff, that is already, or soon will be obsolete.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,042

    https://x.com/lbc/status/2065323211718267034

    "Right now, I'm the only person."

    Nigel Farage believes he's got sufficient 'rapport' and 'courage' to become Prime Minister.

    Very odd answer.

    I know he likes a pint of Courage, but not heard of a beer called Rapport, is it any good?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,997

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    What happens to refugees if no country takes them? Do we drown them at sea? Shoot them?
    That's moot since there are country willing to take them.
    So our line is we won't take any refugees but other (mostly far poorer and more stretched) countries will? I wonder how long that lasts as an equilibrium.
    You're deliberately misunderstanding the proposal. It isn't to take no refugees, but to make it invitation only rather than a universal right. That means that there would always need to be a specific political decision to accept people. That's how the scheme worked for Ukrainian refugees.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,955

    https://x.com/premnsikka/status/2065118197284569533

    Belfast knife suspect won asylum in Britain under 'fast-track' scheme introduced by Tory UK govt.

    Then home secretary Suella Braverman & immigration minister Robert Jenrick – who have both since defected to Reform - oversaw the introduction of the scheme.

    As I’ve said repeatedly, taking Tory MPs was a massive mistake.

    It was (especially since it's only the worst, most washed-up and discredited, Conservatives who have gone to Reform.

    Trouble is, Farage needs some experienced faces to have any hope of running a functional government- ideally 100 or so to be ministers. And the stinkier end of the Conservative Party is his only realistic source.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me.

    I'm fully supportive therefore of cyber defence capabilities being enhanced (and I imagine we can do a fair bit of damage as well though we don't talk about it) but I sense a broader overplaying of the hand. This isn't Cold War 2.0 and while the nuclear shadow hangs over us every much now as it did then, the reasons why no one uses nuclear weapons now are the same as they ever were.

    What then is the debate really about? Is it about defence or identity? Having (or appearing to have) strong armed forces is often a virility test though as history has often told us simply having the men and the materiel can be more a comfort blanket than a statement of military fact.

    A lot of it is, I think, back to the old questions about struggling to define ourselves - what is Britain? What should it be? What do we want it to be? Indeed, those questions have sat at the core of our national debate for a couple of generations and a lot that has happened (and is happening) flows from them.
    Oh, Russia can absolutely cause chaos by shutting down utilities, there’s a lot of cables in the sea which are easy targets we can’t defend. You can also look at the online discourse, with what’s clearly adversary-funded discourse and extremist positions to generate negativity in public discourse.

    AI is the latest one, all of the talking points in the last few weeks about data centres using millions of gallons of water are so obviously incorrect, points to a very organised campaign from most likely China, who will benefit massively from Western AI development slowing down.

    The nuclear deterrent should remain as a deterrent, no Russia’s not going to use it because they know the response, and that’s important.

    In practice the UK has very little in terms of defences against ballistic missiles from Russia. They’d probably need to scramble the QRA Typhoons to try and shoot it down.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    Ratters said:

    Presumably we can improve our military capabilities significantly by just buying a metric-tonne of whatever the latest Ukrainian drone technology is at the end of this war?

    Not really.
    The drones Ukraine uses this month are improvements on those they used last month.
    It's all in a state of rapid evolution, somewhat analogous to the use of airplanes in WWI, except much larger scale and subject much more rapid change.

    It's the domestic manufacturing capacity which we would do with building.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,682
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    The problem is it's hard to see how the UK gets invaded. After all the only plausible enemy is Russia and they are not exactly next door.

    So our defence is really about helping the rest of Europe which we left after Brexit so it could be argued we don't need to do much to help them.

    So if I was a Reform voter why should we spend much money on defence...

    (note not my real view) just going for a relatively simpliestic lets not spend money approach.
    People repeatedly say that “Defence should be the Governments First Priority!” Particularly when they want more money for it.

    Shouldn’t it be feeding people or health. Throughout the 20th century there were countries where Governments spent more on Defence than Health, The IS in the Fifties, The Soviet Union. China when there was quite literally famine. North Korea now.

    For the average person is crime a higher priority than war?

    Is it actually true or just a cliche people troop out?

    Peter.
    It's a useful cliche operating as a simplification. The ordering of departments into an order of priority is a less useful cliche because it compares incommensurable things. Pot holes, social care and teaching maths to six year olds are not comparable projects.

    'Defence' is perhaps the most obvious single word to describe the purpose and limits of a nation state government government. Within it all other major aspects of government are contained.

    I have a radical, possibly insane idea.

    I suggest that everyone lies down on the floor - risk of falling off chairs.

    Everyone ready? Right

    I believe that government needs to do multiple things. At the same time. All the time.

    Let's check the number of casualties that caused.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,942
    edited June 12
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/moment-bolton-imams-family-home-34102134?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1781174783

    Probability of Farage, Tommy Robinson etc of calling for "cold hard rage" in response to arson of a family home? My money is on 0%
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,682
    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    Presumably we can improve our military capabilities significantly by just buying a metric-tonne of whatever the latest Ukrainian drone technology is at the end of this war?

    Not really.
    The drones Ukraine uses this month are improvements on those they used last month.
    It's all in a state of rapid evolution, somewhat analogous to the use of airplanes in WWI, except much larger scale and subject much more rapid change.

    It's the domestic manufacturing capacity which we would do with building.
    Aside from the issues with drones as a concept, there isa small fly in the ointment.

    The cheap components for drones - motors etc - all come from China, or similar.

    So if something goes wrong with imports, no drones.

    So if you want a sovereign drone capability, you need either a vast stockpile of all the likely bits. Or a manufacturing capability for them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    edited June 12
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me...
    So the UK/Norway gas pipelines, and the high voltage interconnects with the continent are points of considerable vulnerability ?

    Absent a change of regime for the better, the "Russian threat" is not entirely fanciful.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
    edited June 12

    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    Presumably we can improve our military capabilities significantly by just buying a metric-tonne of whatever the latest Ukrainian drone technology is at the end of this war?

    Not really.
    The drones Ukraine uses this month are improvements on those they used last month.
    It's all in a state of rapid evolution, somewhat analogous to the use of airplanes in WWI, except much larger scale and subject much more rapid change.

    It's the domestic manufacturing capacity which we would do with building.
    Aside from the issues with drones as a concept, there isa small fly in the ointment.

    The cheap components for drones - motors etc - all come from China, or similar.

    So if something goes wrong with imports, no drones.

    So if you want a sovereign drone capability, you need either a vast stockpile of all the likely bits. Or a manufacturing capability for them.
    Well, yes.
    Certainly Europe should have that capacity, and we should aim to be part of that.

    The reality is that there isn't a vast amount the UK can do, purely on its own, in the technologies and industry essential to the future.
    But there's absolutely no reason Europe should not have sovereign capacity in everything from raw materials mining and production to advanced chip manufacturing and reusable space launch.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,723
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me...
    So the UK/Norway gas pipelines, and the high voltage interconnects with the continent are points of considerable vulnerability ?

    Absnet a change of regime for the better, the "Russian threat" is not entirely fanciful.
    Let's also not forget that the Russians used a weapon of mass murder on the streets of the UK less than a decade ago, it was only sheer luck that only one person died.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,997
    Foxy said:

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/moment-bolton-imams-family-home-34102134?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1781174783

    Probability of Farage, Tommy Robinson etc of calling for "cold hard rage" in response to arson of a family home? My money is on 0%

    Did the police arrest the homeowner?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,489

    https://x.com/premnsikka/status/2065118197284569533

    Belfast knife suspect won asylum in Britain under 'fast-track' scheme introduced by Tory UK govt.

    Then home secretary Suella Braverman & immigration minister Robert Jenrick – who have both since defected to Reform - oversaw the introduction of the scheme.

    As I’ve said repeatedly, taking Tory MPs was a massive mistake.

    It was (especially since it's only the worst, most washed-up and discredited, Conservatives who have gone to Reform.

    Trouble is, Farage needs some experienced faces to have any hope of running a functional government- ideally 100 or so to be ministers. And the stinkier end of the Conservative Party is his only realistic source.
    Farage didn't need them. He thought it would accellerate the end of the Conservative Party, which appears to be his single over-arching purpose.

    That these incomers' failings leaves him hugely exposed on Reform's central policy target - immigration - is hilarious. A terrible own goal by Farage. A smarter leader would have left them where they were, to metastasize within the Tories.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,630
    edited June 12
    Good morning everyone.

    Fun photo of the day, about hidden disabilities. I'd guess that this person may have been harassed at some time or other: "You don't LOOK very disabled."


  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,456
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me.

    I'm fully supportive therefore of cyber defence capabilities being enhanced (and I imagine we can do a fair bit of damage as well though we don't talk about it) but I sense a broader overplaying of the hand. This isn't Cold War 2.0 and while the nuclear shadow hangs over us every much now as it did then, the reasons why no one uses nuclear weapons now are the same as they ever were.

    What then is the debate really about? Is it about defence or identity? Having (or appearing to have) strong armed forces is often a virility test though as history has often told us simply having the men and the materiel can be more a comfort blanket than a statement of military fact.

    A lot of it is, I think, back to the old questions about struggling to define ourselves - what is Britain? What should it be? What do we want it to be? Indeed, those questions have sat at the core of our national debate for a couple of generations and a lot that has happened (and is happening) flows from them.
    What is the debate really about? Very good question. Which makes the way government frames and communicates ultra important. Too many of the 'givens' are no longer so. All my life central pillars have been: NATO, the place of the USA as flawed but reliable global player, UK armed force a force for good and an effective player in the world. UK government, two party system, more or less stable, pro western, strong on defence, nuclear deterrence an effective stopper of attacks on us.

    It is not surprising that we are confused about identity when none of these are intact and a few years have shattered the assumptions. I think it is too early to see where the pieces will lie and how to put it together. But for now it is clear that the UK needs to be led by an outstanding communicator as PM (with all the other qualities too of course), and to be unambiguous about UK defence and EuroNATO+ Canada + USA if willing as our fundamental alliance
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,895
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,951
    Foxy said:

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/moment-bolton-imams-family-home-34102134?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Bluesky#Echobox=1781174783

    Probability of Farage, Tommy Robinson etc of calling for "cold hard rage" in response to arson of a family home? My money is on 0%

    But Sir Keir is sure to call a COBRA meeting though?

    Right?
    Right?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,665
    Sandpit said:



    In practice the UK has very little in terms of defences against ballistic missiles from Russia. They’d probably need to scramble the QRA Typhoons to try and shoot it down.

    How's that going to work? An Oreshnik flies at M10+, a Bulava at M20+. Meteor tops out at M4 with a perfect firing solution.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,878

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Up to 90% of Ireland’s asylum seekers may have entered from Northern Ireland, data shows

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jun/12/ireland-asylum-seekers-northern-land-border
    ...The UK Home Office revealed overnight that in the past year it had apprehended more than 900 “immigration offenders” abusing the open land border.

    Data from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT) in Dublin, however, showed 16,600 people had sought asylum at an airport or port.
    Significant numbers in that cohort were thought to have travelled from Great Britain to Ireland via a flight or ferry to Belfast.

    The CTA has come under renewed scrutiny this week after a knife attack in Belfast on Monday. The suspect, Hadi Alodid, a 30-year-old Sudanese refugee, has been charged with attempted murder.

    The attack triggered two nights of violence after it emerged Alodid had travelled from Sudan to Paris and then Dublin before taking a bus to Belfast where he claimed asylum in 2023. Police reinforcements were sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on Thursday.

    Before 2019, the number of people seeking asylum in Ireland was relatively small, about 5,000, commensurate with the experience of a small country on the farthest outreaches of Europe...

    So, rather than us complaining about illegal migration from Eire they have much more to complain about in terms of illegal migration from Ulster. And of course those complaining will presumably acknowledge that the UK is a safe country.

    Er, not at the moment.
    ..It was also expecting to revive a post-Brexit returns agreement that has so far seen only one asylum seeker returned to Ireland from the UK.
    The deal agreed in 2020 was delayed after Ireland’s high court ruled that the UK’s policy on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda meant it was not a legally defined “safe country”...
    LOL, it just gets more and more ridiculous. As I have said before the only way to address this is to remove the right to asylum and to make it invitation only. Sooner or later all of Western Europe are going to go down that route. It would be nice if we did before electing the likes of Farage to power.
    What happens to refugees if no country takes them? Do we drown them at sea? Shoot them?
    That's moot since there are country willing to take them.
    So our line is we won't take any refugees but other (mostly far poorer and more stretched) countries will? I wonder how long that lasts as an equilibrium.
    You're deliberately misunderstanding the proposal. It isn't to take no refugees, but to make it invitation only rather than a universal right. That means that there would always need to be a specific political decision to accept people. That's how the scheme worked for Ukrainian refugees.
    Refugee asylum etc has to be predicated on need primarily. That's the whole point. The way forward is a new international agreement not individual countries just shutting up shop and bidding for 'desirables'. Change is needed. Let's work with others to achieve it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,682
    edited June 12
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    Presumably we can improve our military capabilities significantly by just buying a metric-tonne of whatever the latest Ukrainian drone technology is at the end of this war?

    Not really.
    The drones Ukraine uses this month are improvements on those they used last month.
    It's all in a state of rapid evolution, somewhat analogous to the use of airplanes in WWI, except much larger scale and subject much more rapid change.

    It's the domestic manufacturing capacity which we would do with building.
    Aside from the issues with drones as a concept, there isa small fly in the ointment.

    The cheap components for drones - motors etc - all come from China, or similar.

    So if something goes wrong with imports, no drones.

    So if you want a sovereign drone capability, you need either a vast stockpile of all the likely bits. Or a manufacturing capability for them.
    Well, yes.
    Certainly Europe should have that capacity, and we should aim to be part of that.

    The reality is that there isn't a vast amount the UK can do, purely on its own, in the technologies and industry essential to the future.
    But there's absolutely no reason Europe should not have sovereign capacity in everything from raw materials mining and production to advanced chip manufacturing and reusable space launch.
    A sovereign capability on making small *cheap* electric motors is probably not sexy, though.

    Or *cheap* compact, low power computer boards.

    Or *cheap* small, light video cameras.

    Edit: On space launch, the biggest problem is political. For decades, Government policy has been to support ESA/Ariane, and make sure that no UK firm attempts to compete with them. Variously small launcher schemes are given some minor support, but any attempt look at even the medium class is er... shot down.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,821
    edited June 12

    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    Presumably we can improve our military capabilities significantly by just buying a metric-tonne of whatever the latest Ukrainian drone technology is at the end of this war?

    Not really.
    The drones Ukraine uses this month are improvements on those they used last month.
    It's all in a state of rapid evolution, somewhat analogous to the use of airplanes in WWI, except much larger scale and subject much more rapid change.

    It's the domestic manufacturing capacity which we would do with building.
    Aside from the issues with drones as a concept, there isa small fly in the ointment.

    The cheap components for drones - motors etc - all come from China, or similar.

    So if something goes wrong with imports, no drones.

    So if you want a sovereign drone capability, you need either a vast stockpile of all the likely bits. Or a manufacturing capability for them.
    Which is what the Ukranians have done. They can now make quadcoptor drones from first principles, nothing Chinese in them.

    We all have so much to learn from Ukraine once this war is over.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,630
    Observed in the pub last night:

    A table of four 20 and 30-somethings playing "Magic: The Gathering" for the whole evening. It seems they do it once a fortnight, like a Mahjong or Bridge in an Agatha Christie.

    I'm quite surprised that that is still a thing.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,721
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    Third rate government, failing to understand that defence of the Realm should be its first priority.

    You've already had (and to your credit admitted) mention of the massive failings of previous Governments notably (but not exclusively) 2010-24.

    I continue to struggle with the nature of the Russian "threat" and what seems to be an over-reaction. Is there a "threat"? Yes, inasmuch as I'm sure Putin (like every Russian ruler since Peter the Great) would prefer to dominate Europe but the will to do it and the means to do it?

    The notion of a 100 division armoured thrust sweeping across Poland, Germany and France to the Channel is absurd at this time - the failings of the current Russian military machine have been laid bare in Ukraine where (as far as this cynical old soul is concerned) the war continues as much for defence analysts to observe the evolution of war as it does for any sensible military or political purpose.

    There are those who argue the "threat" is cyber and there's a lot of truth in that - we look to be vulnerable (though I suspect less so than is often believed) to "inconvenience terrorism" - such things as hacking into bank systems and preventing transactions or stock control and production systems so we run out of the essentials such as toilet paper, avocado or the Racing Post.

    Taking down the Internet for 24 hours would be seen as a national catastrophe and would make this forum a lot quieter but the notion of a prolonged power cut (a week or two) is one that really worries me...
    So the UK/Norway gas pipelines, and the high voltage interconnects with the continent are points of considerable vulnerability ?

    Absent a change of regime for the better, the "Russian threat" is not entirely fanciful.
    I think we all agree the nature of the threat has evolved and so by definition must our response.

    Our infrastructural vulnerabilites (shared, I imagine, by much of Europe) would seem the obvious places to start. Could Russian hackers disable the UK power grid for a week? I don't know but we should (and I suspect do) have back up and other capabilities which would allow power to be restored within a few hours if not days.

    Having redundancy and contingency scenarios for infrastructure attacks would seem eminently sensible and I suspect they exist and I also suspect our ability to carry out retaliatory attacks on Russian cyber infrastructure is likely greater.

    Yet so many still seem to think of the "threat" in 1980s terms - mass columns of tanks heading towards us from the east, chemical and perhaps biological attacks as part of a huge land grab of western and central Europe. That kind of hardware isn't required in the way it was and that presumably impacts on the defence industry which would like to make lots of tanks and the like much of which we probably don't need or want whereas what we might need are drones and missiles.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,665
    Anyway, Happy Russia Day to all those that celebrate. Just having a quiet one at home at home this year.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTJbHvxDWIc/?hl=en
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,368
    Dopermean said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    How. How is it possible that only two years after a landslide win this Labour government is collapsing in chaos?

    Starmer is a very poor leader. Like, really poor. (I'm sure a better writer than me could come up with a Hitchhiker's style soliloquy about how mind-bendingly poor Starmer has been.)

    He only won a landslide because he was up against the weakest performance by the Tory party in its history, after that party foisted a Prime Minister onto the country so inept they had to replace her in less than 50 days.

    In those circumstances any averagely competent leader would have won a landslide of Baldwin (1931) proportions.

    The landslide that Starmer did win probably bought him an extra year as PM. That and the split and weak nature of the opposition.

    I have my doubts about Burnham. And I think Labour should be working out what to do different rather than concentrate on who to do it differently with. But Starmer is actively making the situation worse and has to go.
    If you were Labour leader and looking a year or two away from a GE in which the worst combination of Liz Truss shite/Johnson open borders/Sunak mud sludge do nothing policy other than AI was the opposition --- would you not sit down with the great and the good in policy world and actually construction a manifesto and political economy policy that mattered??

    But he couldn't do that because Labour is a socialist party and socialism doesn't work, as has been obvious since at least 1989.

    To work economically, any such policy would have to involve some combination of deregulation, lower taxes and lower welfare spending.

    But the activists and many MPs are still socialist, so the leadership's only recourse is a kind of weird doublethink, where they pretend they have a growth strategy while sabotaging the economy with endless tax rises and welfare spending, which infuriates the right, white leaving just enough of a free market to keep the economy stagnant rather than collapsing, which outrages the left.

    And, unsurprisingly, nobody is happy.
    Labour came in on Change. They are failing to Change. And somehow you think more of the same failing to Change is going to help.

    I mean really, deregulation? Deregulation has given us the water industry. It’s given us the Fossil Fuel Industry with andd its authoritarian hideousness and climate change. Deregulation is not a panacea. It’s an utter fucking disaster for environment and humanity.

    Tired old ideas from Labour and the right’s endemic corruption are supporting a genocide. FFS, blaming welfare recipients is so short sighted it cause me to face palm.

    Change is required.
    The water industry deregulated?

    You must be joking.

    I actually know a lot about the industry's regulation professionally and it's incredibly heavily regulated. In fact, water companies answer to no fewer than seven regulators. So many that not even I can remember them all (Ofwat, DWI, RAPID, the Environment Agency, the National Rivers Authority are the ones I dealt with).

    Similar with the energy industry - what do you think the 2,200 people in Ofgem do all day?

    And the financial services industry.

    The problem with many of those industries is not inadequate regulation, it's incompetent regulation.

    Very different. And it doesn't change the fact that excessive regulation, which many industries do suffer from (housing is a particularly glaring example) and taxes strangle economic growth.
    It doesn't stop them taking any opportunity to pump untreated water into the rivers and sea though does it. The fundamental problem is that the water companies are ethically bereft profit maximising companies that the regulators struggle to regulate. Renationalise them and make the target not pumping untreated water into rivers and sea.
    No, the ownership structure of the water industry is clearly NOT the problem, because the Northern Irish water industry is in public ownership, and is just as bad in sewage overflows as the English companies, though less heavily monitored.

    State-owned NI Water estimates that over 20 million tonnes of untreated sewage and wastewater are dumped into waterways around 24,500 times annually, while Thames, which covers about five times as many people, dumps about twice that amount.

    If anything, the more transparent and comprehensive regulation in England and Wales actually helped get this problem dealt with because it was through that that people realised what was happening, and now the various regulators and water companies are incurring the huge expense necessary to deal with it.

    All the analysis of this problem comes back, not to the industry ownership, but to incompetent and ineffective regulation.
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