The independence debate has fortunately passed most of we Anglos by. I doubt if a lot will change even if you vote 'Yes'. We'll still have open borders and Scots flooding South when they want to. You may find a lot more twee Scottishness if Salmond turns into a De Valera clone.
Not sure about the Pound, though.
I wasn't really addressing the 'indifferents' of which I accept there are many (though I wish your indifference extended to not making silly analogies about possible future Scotlands).
There is no problem with Scotland keeping the £ after independence, They can revert to the £Scots which in 1707 had an exchange rate of 12£Scots = 1£Sterling
Fanny alert our resident billionaire adds his intelligence to the topic.
It does mean what you mean by a positive case. More prosperous and more influential together, while united by common bonds of history, culture and beliefs seems pretty positive to me.
SO , the more prosperous and influential bit is just bollocks, the other parts which are real do not disappear if we are independent. There is nothing in that statement to enthuse anyone to vote NO. It says lets live in the past and ignore all the bad bits , having been pals for a while should be reason enough.
The independence debate has fortunately passed most of we Anglos by. I doubt if a lot will change even if you vote 'Yes'. We'll still have open borders and Scots flooding South when they want to. You may find a lot more twee Scottishness if Salmond turns into a De Valera clone.
Not sure about the Pound, though.
have no fear Salmond won't turn in to De Valera. He'll be Charles Haughey - pork barrel self enrichment with wind up your neighbours thrown in..
The Mail's write up of the Eastleigh poll is a bit odd. They've combined it with Mr Sked being rude about Mr Farage/UKIP, and given Mr Sked the headline.
I've heard quite a few folk now saying that Bettertogether have to change tenor and start emphasising the positive. Ignoring the possibility that after such a long dirge of flat-footed negativity it may be too late (or ineffective), would a positive Unionist care to put together a strategy based on this? Bear in mind there are less than 5 months left, so it needs to happen, like, now.
Mr. Divvie, I strongly suspect that no positive case for maintaining the Union has been made because nobody can think of one. Any such case should, I think, be made solely by the Scots who want to stay in the Union and no politician, or anyone else fro that matter, from EWNI should have anything to do with it. The decision and hence the debate is one for Scots alone.
The only time an English politician should speak on the matter is to give the English view on some of the over-enthusiastic statements made by either side (e.g. currency union or future RN contracts).
That said, for the sake of discussion on this board, I have yet to hear any of those that want to maintain the Union put up any sort of positive case for it. SeanT says Scotland is a vital part of the UK, but doesn't say why he thinks that. I strongly suspect that most Englishmen couldn't give a stuff either way, which makes the idea of Cameron having to resign in the event of a yes vote rather silly.
Yes, that's what's struck me. There seems to be a quite genuine & sincere desire for there to be a positive case for the Union, just an inability to identify & express it.
Naughty, naughty. You just know what the response will be on here from the *ahem* usual amusing suspects.
LOL
Jist a sneaky wee prod and away they go like clockwork . Dear me TUD you must stop setting them up like this. Superb comedy as always but try to keep it subtle so they don't stop.
I see the pb ally mcleods are prematurely celebrating yet again. Forget bannockburn remember Argentina '78
Nobody here celebrating , just nice to see the reality we have been pointing out for many months now is sinking in. Care to give us your 1966 speech and enthuse us to vote NO.
Wasn't born in '66 so it doesn't mean much to me. And I suspect England's performance in Brazil is unlikely to cause offence to those who seek offence to be caused. Polls are closer but (with the exception of this ICM) no fairly solid. Good campaign from the Nats so far - if its done one thing it has made real to everyone that Scotland could go it alone if it wanted to which was the first big hurdle so now its a pragmatic one of is it worth it and what are the risks.
If yes Scotland should contribute to the upkeep of Northern Ireland given its central role in creating and stoking the problems in the first place. English taxpayers would end up subsidising Scotland's two leading football clubs through benefit payments to their NI based supporters.
Reasonable answer, but the last 12 polls at least have all shown a move to YES so not quite accurate there. NI is all England's baby and we will want nothing to do with funding past colonial efforts. It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get. This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
I see the pb ally mcleods are prematurely celebrating yet again. Forget bannockburn remember Argentina '78
Nobody here celebrating , just nice to see the reality we have been pointing out for many months now is sinking in. Care to give us your 1966 speech and enthuse us to vote NO.
Wasn't born in '66 so it doesn't mean much to me. And I suspect England's performance in Brazil is unlikely to cause offence to those who seek offence to be caused. Polls are closer but (with the exception of this ICM) no fairly solid. Good campaign from the Nats so far - if its done one thing it has made real to everyone that Scotland could go it alone if it wanted to which was the first big hurdle so now its a pragmatic one of is it worth it and what are the risks.
If yes Scotland should contribute to the upkeep of Northern Ireland given its central role in creating and stoking the problems in the first place. English taxpayers would end up subsidising Scotland's two leading football clubs through benefit payments to their NI based supporters.
Reasonable answer, but the last 12 polls at least have all shown a move to YES so not quite accurate there. It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get. This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
NI is all England's baby and we will want nothing to do with funding past colonial efforts.
You clearly don't understand your own history.
Anyhoo I though one of your grandfather was a bowler hatted one ?
England [and Scotland are] a kingdom, Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland's a province.
The uppityness of the Scots is causing Her Majesty to reconsider this distribution.
At the same time the loyalty of the Northern Irish is to be rewarded. A Palatinate Duchy is being considered with our very own Alanbrooke mooted for the role.
I think you'll find it will be Lord McGuinness of Foyle who will get the honours Mr P.
I've been quietly laughing as the Irish are doing their damnedest to replace the Scots as best neighbour. While the Scotnats have been genetically engineering more chips for their shoulders the Irish have been slowly filling the slots they are vacating.
Too stupid remains the killer.
unity happening any time soon unless a black swan turns up.
the past few years, it's economic sitiation being what it was!
There's an annual survey on attitudes in NI. last time those favouring Unity was about 20-25%. You sort of got the impression it was reality by the strength of denials from SF.
Makes my point really. Why would you want to join a basket case economy? Given that the economic situation in the RoI is slowly improving, wonder what the next survey or two will show.
I, personally, am not bothered too much either way, so long as mainland UK, with or without Scotland, doesn't have to support NI
Do you realise just how much shit the RoI is in. The UK looks good by comparison and were Fked for the next 25 years. You've taken the Irish off the critical surgery list and said they can run a marathon.
Alan, They still do a good pint of guinness though.
England [and Scotland are] a kingdom, Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland's a province.
The uppityness of the Scots is causing Her Majesty to reconsider this distribution.
At the same time the loyalty of the Northern Irish is to be rewarded. A Palatinate Duchy is being considered with our very own Alanbrooke mooted for the role.
I think you'll find it will be Lord McGuinness of Foyle who will get the honours Mr P.
I've been quietly laughing as the Irish are doing their damnedest to replace the Scots as best neighbour. While the Scotnats have been genetically engineering more chips for their shoulders the Irish have been slowly filling the slots they are vacating.
Too stupid remains the killer.
unity happening any time soon unless a black swan turns up.
the past few years, it's economic sitiation being what it was!
There's an annual survey on attitudes in NI. last time those favouring Unity was about 20-25%. You sort of got the impression it was reality by the strength of denials from SF.
Makes my point really. Why would you want to join a basket case economy? Given that the economic situation in the RoI is slowly improving, wonder what the next survey or two will show.
I, personally, am not bothered too much either way, so long as mainland UK, with or without Scotland, doesn't have to support NI
Do you realise just how much shit the RoI is in. The UK looks good by comparison and were Fked for the next 25 years. You've taken the Irish off the critical surgery list and said they can run a marathon.
Alan, They still do a good pint of guinness though.
We have a great deal in common; the differences are less important than the myriad of things we have in common. We have a shared history and a shared future. We are more than friends; we are family.
What is more, we will both be more prosperous together than divided. It is not a zero-sum game: being together benefits both sides more than if we were divided. As a united Kingdom, we are larger than the sum of our parts. We can offer each other security and friendship.
Being together does not mean anyone has to lose their identity: your identity, my identity, even SeanT's identity, are all welcome.
And to bring this to F1: you provide the drivers, and we'll provide the cars, ;-)
(Waits to get flamed by the usual suspects)
Just wishy washy waffle, not one thing that is a fact that makes it better. Pure fanny speak when you have nothing factual to add. Let me show you a fact. Scotland when independent will get rid of Bedroom tax , will reduce or get rid of APD , both of these are detrimental to Scottish interests but are applied due to westminster. Try giving us a fact rather than wonk speak.
PS:the only decent thing you posted security and friendship do not disappear just because we are independent. Lots and lots of independent countries are friendly and work together on security.
It's not wishy washy waffle: it's positive.
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
I see the pb ally mcleods are prematurely celebrating yet again. Forget bannockburn remember Argentina '78
Nobody here celebrating , just nice to see the reality we have been pointing out for many months now is sinking in. Care to give us your 1966 speech and enthuse us to vote NO.
Wasn't born in '66 so it doesn't mean much to me. And I suspect England's performance in Brazil is unlikely to cause offence to those who seek offence to be caused. Polls are closer but (with the exception of this ICM) no fairly solid. Good campaign from the Nats so far - if its done one thing it has made real to everyone that Scotland could go it alone if it wanted to which was the first big hurdle so now its a pragmatic one of is it worth it and what are the risks.
If yes Scotland should contribute to the upkeep of Northern Ireland given its central role in creating and stoking the problems in the first place. English taxpayers would end up subsidising Scotland's two leading football clubs through benefit payments to their NI based supporters.
Reasonable answer, but the last 12 polls at least have all shown a move to YES so not quite accurate there. It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get. This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
NI is all England's baby and we will want nothing to do with funding past colonial efforts.
You clearly don't understand your own history.
Anyhoo I though one of your grandfather was a bowler hatted one ?
Alan, I think the problem was he wasn't of the bowler hat brigade whilst my Gran's side were. All very murky but probably why they got the first ferry out. Some day I may find out. PS I do know the history, but as ever these things were orchestrated from elsewhere, using cannon fodder, willing , greedy or otherwise inclined.
Mr. M, yeah, I saw that. I doubt it'll have much impact. Both teams will be hoping for a low teens finish or two to 'see off' the backmarker competition.
We have a great deal in common; the differences are less important than the myriad of things we have in common. We have a shared history and a shared future. We are more than friends; we are family.
What is more, we will both be more prosperous together than divided. It is not a zero-sum game: being together benefits both sides more than if we were divided. As a united Kingdom, we are larger than the sum of our parts. We can offer each other security and friendship.
Being together does not mean anyone has to lose their identity: your identity, my identity, even SeanT's identity, are all welcome.
And to bring this to F1: you provide the drivers, and we'll provide the cars, ;-)
(Waits to get flamed by the usual suspects)
Just wishy washy waffle, not one thing that is a fact that makes it better. Pure fanny speak when you have nothing factual to add. Let me show you a fact. Scotland when independent will get rid of Bedroom tax , will reduce or get rid of APD , both of these are detrimental to Scottish interests but are applied due to westminster. Try giving us a fact rather than wonk speak.
PS:the only decent thing you posted security and friendship do not disappear just because we are independent. Lots and lots of independent countries are friendly and work together on security.
It's not wishy washy waffle: it's positive.
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
JJ you are living up to your name and being a big jessie today. It is just waffle, political wonk speak and means nothing. It is fact free.
F1: Betfair have a Constructors' without Mercedes market. Nothing up yet, but I'll check it now and then to see how things stand. Got a potential idea for top 3 in the title race bet, but I'll wait and see how it sits in a few days.
We have a great deal in common; the differences are less important than the myriad of things we have in common. We have a shared history and a shared future. We are more than friends; we are family.
What is more, we will both be more prosperous together than divided. It is not a zero-sum game: being together benefits both sides more than if we were divided. As a united Kingdom, we are larger than the sum of our parts. We can offer each other security and friendship.
Being together does not mean anyone has to lose their identity: your identity, my identity, even SeanT's identity, are all welcome.
And to bring this to F1: you provide the drivers, and we'll provide the cars, ;-)
(Waits to get flamed by the usual suspects)
Just wishy washy waffle, not one thing that is a fact that makes it better. Pure fanny speak when you have nothing factual to add. Let me show you a fact. Scotland when independent will get rid of Bedroom tax , will reduce or get rid of APD , both of these are detrimental to Scottish interests but are applied due to westminster. Try giving us a fact rather than wonk speak.
PS:the only decent thing you posted security and friendship do not disappear just because we are independent. Lots and lots of independent countries are friendly and work together on security.
It's not wishy washy waffle: it's positive.
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
JJ you are living up to your name and being a big jessie today. It is just waffle, political wonk speak and means nothing. It is fact free.
If you want fact free, then look at the 'Yes' campaign in relation to things like the currency you will use after independence.
I wouldn't expect you to be persuaded by *any* argument the Yes campaign put forward. Therefore your casual dismissal can be safely ignored. The No campaign are after the hearts and minds of people who are less (ahem) strident in their opinions.
It's clearly getting close, but both polls still show No ahead, so we shouldn't treat it as a done deal for Yes. Is there a case for another joint initiative by the UK parties, this time not negative (if you leave you can't keep the currency) but positive - reasons we hope you'll stay, the extent of devolution we agree on, etc.?
A month ago you were glibly and loftily dismissing fears of a YES vote ("I was talking to a Scottish friend the other day, the No campaign has not begun, there's nothing to worry about").
I told you this was ridiculously complacent; I was right and you were wrong.
Now get yer butt up north and start some of that famous canvassing. Unless, of course, 1. you don't care if Britain survives, and 2. you don't care if Labour lose 40 MPs at a stroke and much of the party's energy, talent and drive
1. I can believe 2. I do not believe
Aux armes, Labourites, aux armes.
Except I just can't see it - I really can't.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head up over the parapet and follow the bidding of their Tory masters, for fear of losing up to 50% of their vote at the next UK or Scottish GE, given the current numbers in the indy polls. (Remember a lot of the voting is tactical, to keep Tories out.) It makes more sense for an individual MP to risk losing the indy vote from the individual's point of view (only 50% whereas campaigning risks 75% or so when one does the permutation matrix). And why worry if you are a MSP? The Scottish Parliament will still be there, with the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
The PB 2014 Mk 2 game seems to be shuddering to a finish with Germany and now England NMRing and so giving France and Russia massive advantages.
If anyone wants to join a new game, PB 2014 Mk3 is up and waiting (password catsandkittens)
The PB Death Match is living up to expectations, though. Germany and Austria are going to have to get off the fence soon and then there will be fireworks.
I see the pb ally mcleods are prematurely celebrating yet again. Forget bannockburn remember Argentina '78
Nobody here celebrating , just nice to see the reality we have been pointing out for many months now is sinking in. Care to give us your 1966 speech and enthuse us to vote NO.
Wasn't born in '66 so it doesn't mean much to me. And I suspect England's performance in Brazil is unlikely to cause offence to those who seek offence to be caused. Polls are closer but (with the exception of this ICM) no fairly solid. Good campaign from the Nats so far - if its done one thing it has made real to everyone that Scotland could go it alone if it wanted to which was the first big hurdle so now its a pragmatic one of is it worth it and what are the risks.
If yes Scotland should contribute to the upkeep of Northern Ireland given its central role in creating and stoking the problems in the first place. English taxpayers would end up subsidising Scotland's two leading football clubs through benefit payments to their NI based supporters.
Reasonable answer, but the last 12 polls at least have all shown a move to YES so not quite accurate there. NI is all England's baby and we will want nothing to do with funding past colonial efforts. It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get. This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
I know facts are not your strong point but the last 12 polls from all pollsters have shown the following ( all in comparison with the previous poll from the same pollster )
5 have shown a decrease in the NO lead 3 have shown no change in the lead at all 4 have shown an increase in the No lead
There is no narrowing of the lead , the position is static because most people have made up their minds and did so ages ago . All you are seeing is MofE variations from poll to poll .
It's clearly getting close, but both polls still show No ahead, so we shouldn't treat it as a done deal for Yes. Is there a case for another joint initiative by the UK parties, this time not negative (if you leave you can't keep the currency) but positive - reasons we hope you'll stay, the extent of devolution we agree on, etc.?
A month ago you were glibly and loftily dismissing fears of a YES vote ("I was talking to a Scottish friend the other day, the No campaign has not begun, there's nothing to worry about").
I told you this was ridiculously complacent; I was right and you were wrong.
Now get yer butt up north and start some of that famous canvassing. Unless, of course, 1. you don't care if Britain survives, and 2. you don't care if Labour lose 40 MPs at a stroke and much of the party's energy, talent and drive
1. I can believe 2. I do not believe
Aux armes, Labourites, aux armes.
Except I just can't see it - I really can't.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head up over the parapet and follow the bidding of their Tory masters, for fear of losing up to 50% of their vote at the next UK or Scottish GE, given the current numbers in the indy polls. (Remember a lot of the voting is tactical, to keep Tories out.) It makes more sense for an individual MP to risk losing the indy vote from the individual's point of view (only 50% whereas campaigning risks 75% or so when one does the permutation matrix). And why worry if you are a MSP? The Scottish Parliament will still be there, with the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
Bigger boys did it and ran away doesn't wash. Why not have the honesty to say - we were central to and benefited from Empire but now we want to move on, leave England to deal with the last knockings and live off the oil for a while whilst we try to strengthen our wider economy. That's the real story isn't it?
I suspect we'll be hearing English nats making the same point (minus the oil) if you do go, about Wales and NI. Like most European nationalisms it is essentially the richer bits circling the wagons. Natural reaction to the economic crisis but lets not try and enoble it.
It's clearly getting close, but both polls still show No ahead, so we shouldn't treat it as a done deal for Yes. Is there a case for another joint initiative by the UK parties, this time not negative (if you leave you can't keep the currency) but positive - reasons we hope you'll stay, the extent of devolution we agree on, etc.?
A month ago you were glibly and loftily dismissing fears of a YES vote ("I was talking to a Scottish friend the other day, the No campaign has not begun, there's nothing to worry about").
I told you this was ridiculously complacent; I was right and you were wrong.
Now get yer butt up north and start some of that famous canvassing. Unless, of course, 1. you don't care if Britain survives, and 2. you don't care if Labour lose 40 MPs at a stroke and much of the party's energy, talent and drive
1. I can believe 2. I do not believe
Aux armes, Labourites, aux armes.
Except I just can't see it - I really can't.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head up over the parapet and follow the bidding of their Tory masters, for fear of losing up to 50% of their vote at the next UK or Scottish GE, given the current numbers in the indy polls. (Remember a lot of the voting is tactical, to keep Tories out.) It makes more sense for an individual MP to risk losing the indy vote from the individual's point of view (only 50% whereas campaigning risks 75% or so when one does the permutation matrix). And why worry if you are a MSP? The Scottish Parliament will still be there, with the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
Thanks goodness Rennard doesn't seem to have any prominent pets.
Thank you for the taxonomic correction!
To be fair Clegg's amusing ostrich faction of inept spinners would probably deny there was a dog in the first place before pretending that the polls are showing black is white while insisting that Clegg isn't a toxic embarrassment.
It's clearly getting close, but both polls still show No ahead, so we shouldn't treat it as a done deal for Yes. Is there a case for another joint initiative by the UK parties, this time not negative (if you leave you can't keep the currency) but positive - reasons we hope you'll stay, the extent of devolution we agree on, etc.?
A month ago you were glibly and loftily dismissing fears of a YES vote ("I was talking to a Scottish friend the other day, the No campaign has not begun, there's nothing to worry about").
I told you this was ridiculously complacent; I was right and you were wrong.
Now get yer butt up north and start some of that famous canvassing. Unless, of course, 1. you don't care if Britain survives, and 2. you don't care if Labour lose 40 MPs at a stroke and much of the party's energy, talent and drive
1. I can believe 2. I do not believe
Aux armes, Labourites, aux armes.
Except I just can't see it - I really can't.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head h the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
Scotland will be in the EU but not on the same terms as present. It will cost you.
Tory masters perception = load of made up bollocks.
really, I had hoped for a bit better from you as someone who's "openminded", haven't you claimed to have lived outside Scotland ? Dubious.
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
It also has polling to back that up. Polling which you can be certain SLAB will have seen. Even if they didn't already know the obvious consequences of closeness to the tories from watching the lib dems get smashed into irrelevance in scotland with a taxi full of MSPs and a disappearing base that won't recover for five or even ten years. Assuming it ever does.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head up over the parapet and follow the bidding of their Tory masters, for fear of losing up to 50% of their vote at the next UK or Scottish GE, given the current numbers in the indy polls. (Remember a lot of the voting is tactical, to keep Tories out.) It makes more sense for an individual MP to risk losing the indy vote from the individual's point of view (only 50% whereas campaigning risks 75% or so when one does the permutation matrix). And why worry if you are a MSP? The Scottish Parliament will still be there, with the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
I'd be interested to know the basis and precedent on which the Yes campaign believe that they will automatically be part of the EU after any independence. And if they don't believe they will automatically be part of the EU, there is obviously some doubt. Which is, as far as I'm aware, what most on here have been saying.
We can swap quotes either way; the fact remains there is no precedent and no firm law regarding it.
The problem is that it, like so many other points pertaining to independence, are arguable and debatable.
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
It also has polling to back that up. Polling which you can be certain SLAB have seen. Even if they didn't already know the obvious consequences of closeness to the tories from watching the lib dems get smashed into irrelevance in scotland with a taxi full of MSPs and a disappearing base that won't recover for five or even ten years. Assuming it ever does.
Sorry last week it was the Tory masters wanted to force Scotland out so they could have eternal power in England. really you do need more love-bombing.
Would you agree with that? Do MPs give any weight to the results of the May local, and EU Parliament elections?
I'm not in sufficiently close touch with many MPs at the moment to know. But in general MPs mainly worry about Parliamentary seats, and take about the same interest in other events as any other members considering events outside their constituencies - they hope their cause wins, but aren't necessarily much involved except where they anticipate knock-on effects. I doubt if they're following the local elections outside their patches much; the Euros a bit more as they also work as an opinion poll in their seats. The leadership in each party obviously will take a much more intense interest.
One thing that did strike me in Westminster was just how little contact there was with MPs of any other party or assembly. I met an MSP once in 13 years; I don't think I ever met a Welsh AM; I just occasionally met an MEP. I once around 2003 expressed interest in standing for the European Parliament - there was much head-scratching as the rules were consulted for this almost unprecedented event, and eventually I was told I'd need to resign as an MP before I could even be considered as a possible MEP candidate - a drastic and probably unintended effect of the wording of the "no dual mandate" rule.
The basic attitude was that they were all separate worlds. It seemed a pity, as potentially we could have been learning from each other or making joint initiatives, but I was too busy to do much about it.
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
Why is it that Labour have chosen not to re-direct most of their resources (cash and manpower) to the indeyref? In contrast to the AV ref, when the Conservatives saw that there was a chance of losing the AV ref, cash and manpower was re-directed to the AV ref many months before. My recollection was this happened about 6 months before but it could have been less. It had the effect of shoring up the No campaign but it did remove resources from that year's local elections. The Conservative Leadership rationalised that winning the AV ref was more important than the local elections.
Why has Milliband not made a similar choice? Time is running out. Can't fatten a pig on market day
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
Did the shrieking PB tory fools really not know that there is already a labour splinter faction of 'better together' precisely to keep the tories at arms length? The amusingly named 'united with labour'. It was set up because even some in SLAB and labour know the obvious consequences of being seen as too close to the tories, even if comically out of touch PB tories still don't.
Better Together alliance with Tories has damaged Labour
Less than a quarter of respondents (24%) said Labour had not been damaged, whilst 45% said they thought Labour had been harmed by the Tory alliance. Of those who said they thought Johann Lamont's party had been damaged, 22% thought Labour had been damaged a lot.
Thirty one per cent of respondents said they did not know if Labour had been damaged or not.
Excluding those who said they didn't know, the results show two thirds (66%) believe Labour has been harmed, with only a third (34%) saying the party has not been damaged.
Further analysis of the survey found:
Almost half (48%) of Labour voters surveyed said they thought their party had been damaged
62% of Labour voters who gave an answer felt the party had been damaged
75% of undecided voters who gave an answer to the question believe it has damaged Labour
Only 40% of No voters think it has NOT damaged Labour
Some senior Labour figures are believed to be uncomfortable with the party being seen to be working alongside the Conservatives against independence.
In January, Labour MP Jim Murphy [On left of image] - who has appeared alongside Tory MSP Jackson Carlaw [Second right] promoting Better Together - described the Conservative party as "poisonous".
Labour launched its own anti-independence splinter group last May in a bid at appeasing some traditional Labour organisations who had expressed dismay at the party’s role in Better Together.
So show us all the polling which contradicts that and explain just why the lib dems have been all but wiped out in scotland? Even SLAB and labour voters know perfectly well that the danger is quite real. The PB tories, as always, just don't have a clue.
Richard: please re-read your post again. Its tone just doesn't read right. It comes across as an Englishman being very patronising and condescending to Scots. I find such posts very frustrating because they are entirely counterproductive to the unionist cause.
Even if you won't admit it on here, I trust you're an intelligent and honest enough man to admit that to yourself privately, offline.
I've really no idea what you are talking about. We were discussing whether the rest of the UK would be traumatised by Scottish independence. I don't think it will be, certainly not compared to the loss of Empire. How on earth do you get from that to an Englishman being 'patronising and condescending to Scots'?
FWIW I've stated before here that I think Scotland would do very well as an independent country, once they'd adjusted to the Thatcherite shock of embracing self-reliance and had remembered their historic virtues of entrepreneurship, prudence, hard work, and canniness. It's a remarkably diverse economy for such a small country, and they have strengths in some key sectors. That is why I think it so odd that Salmond has made such a dog's breakfast of major issues such as the currency, EU membership, defence, pensions, and the financial services industry. And that in turn is why I don't think that, when it actually comes to the vote, the Yes side will win; Salmond has won the emotional argument, but has decisively lost the practical and economic arguments.
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
Did the shrieking PB tory fools really not know that there is already a labour splinter faction of 'better together' precisely to keep the tories at arms length? The amusingly named 'united with labour'. Which is there because even SLAB and some in labour know the obvious consequences of being seen as too close to the tories even if comically out of touch PB tories still don't.
Better Together alliance with Tories has damaged Labour
Less than a quarter of respondents (24%) said Labour had not been damaged, whilst 45% said they thought Labour had been harmed by the Tory alliance. Of those who said they thought Johann Lamont's party had been damaged, 22% thought Labour had been damaged a lot.
Thirty one per cent of respondents said they did not know if Labour had been damaged or not.
Excluding those who said they didn't know, the results show two thirds (66%) believe Labour has been harmed, with only a third (34%) saying the party has not been damaged.
Further analysis of the survey found:
Almost half (48%) of Labour voters surveyed said they thought their party had been damaged
62% of Labour voters who gave an answer felt the party had been damaged
75% of undecided voters who gave an answer to the question believe it has damaged Labour
Only 40% of No voters think it has NOT damaged Labour
Some senior Labour figures are believed to be uncomfortable with the party being seen to be working alongside the Conservatives against independence.
In January, Labour MP Jim Murphy [On left of image] - who has appeared alongside Tory MSP Jackson Carlaw [Second right] promoting Better Together - described the Conservative party as "poisonous".
Labour launched its own anti-independence splinter group last May in a bid at appeasing some traditional Labour organisations who had expressed dismay at the party’s role in Better Together.
So either show polling which contradicts that and explain just why the lib dems have been all but wiped out in scotland? Even SLAB and labour voters know perfectly well that the danger is quite real.
More Surrey fantasies Pork. Why don't you go to Scotland and learn what's happening on the ground ?
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head h the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
Scotland will be in the EU but not on the same terms as present. It will cost you.
Tory masters perception = load of made up bollocks.
really, I had hoped for a bit better from you as someone who's "openminded", haven't you claimed to have lived outside Scotland ? Dubious.
I said, not my perception, and remember I'm the one who keeps pointing out there are more Tories in Scotland than is generally assumed - not least by the London media!
Okay, to save you getting hung up on a point of detail, let's delete Tory masters and put Tory allies in the unionist campaign, and so we can move to the key issue, which is that nobody has explained to me how the central dilemma can be resolved. Scottish Labour pols who have climbed far enough up the cursus honorum to be MPs and MSPs have a lot to lose and nothing obvious to gain from going over the top when the polls show a 1:1 balance. Not enough to go over the wire to the other side, not yet, but ...
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
I'm really feelin' the love.
divvie I gave you first choice you said no, too late to cry about lost love.
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
I'm really feelin' the love.
He's clearly still drunk after Avery hasn't responded in kind to his eccentric gay bondage fantasies. The two of them should kiss and make up instead of behaving like a pair of weans.
We have a great deal in common; the differences are less important than the myriad of things we have in common. We have a shared history and a shared future. We are more than friends; we are family.
What is more, we will both be more prosperous together than divided. It is not a zero-sum game: being together benefits both sides more than if we were divided. As a united Kingdom, we are larger than the sum of our parts. We can offer each other security and friendship.
Being together does not mean anyone has to lose their identity: your identity, my identity, even SeanT's identity, are all welcome.
And to bring this to F1: you provide the drivers, and we'll provide the cars, ;-)
(Waits to get flamed by the usual suspects)
Just wishy washy waffle, not one thing that is a fact that makes it better. Pure fanny speak when you have nothing factual to add. Let me show you a fact. Scotland when independent will get rid of Bedroom tax , will reduce or get rid of APD , both of these are detrimental to Scottish interests but are applied due to westminster. Try giving us a fact rather than wonk speak.
PS:the only decent thing you posted security and friendship do not disappear just because we are independent. Lots and lots of independent countries are friendly and work together on security.
It's not wishy washy waffle: it's positive.
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
JJ you are living up to your name and being a big jessie today. It is just waffle, political wonk speak and means nothing. It is fact free.
If you want fact free, then look at the 'Yes' campaign in relation to things like the currency you will use after independence.
I wouldn't expect you to be persuaded by *any* argument the Yes campaign put forward. Therefore your casual dismissal can be safely ignored. The No campaign are after the hearts and minds of people who are less (ahem) strident in their opinions.
Telling people lies is not the way to win votes , especially when it is obvious you are a lie and your lies can be unpicked by a 5 year old. Whilst YES do not have all the answers they at least have a plan and a vision of a better country. NO just wish to continue with poverty , inequality , foodbanks, tax evasion and nuclear weapons. Hard for them to be positive.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head h the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
Scotland will be in the EU but not on the same terms as present. It will cost you.
Tory masters perception = load of made up bollocks.
really, I had hoped for a bit better from you as someone who's "openminded", haven't you claimed to have lived outside Scotland ? Dubious.
I said, not my perception, and remember I'm the one who keeps pointing out there are more Tories in Scotland than is generally assumed - not least by the London media!
Okay, to save you getting hung up on a point of detail, let's delete Tory masters and put Tory allies in the unionist campaign, and so we can move to the key issue, which is that nobody has explained to me how the central dilemma can be resolved. Scottish Labour pols who have climbed far enough up the cursus honorum to be MPs and MSPs have a lot to lose and nothing obvious to gain from going over the top when the polls show a 1:1 balance. Not enough to go over the wire to the other side, not yet, but ...
sheesh carnyx if you can't get hung up on a point of detail there's no reason for being a scot.
Why is it that Labour have chosen not to re-direct most of their resources (cash and manpower) to the indeyref? In contrast to the AV ref, when the Conservatives saw that there was a chance of losing the AV ref, cash and manpower was re-directed to the AV ref many months before. My recollection was this happened about 6 months before but it could have been less. It had the effect of shoring up the No campaign but it did remove resources from that year's local elections. The Conservative Leadership rationalised that winning the AV ref was more important than the local elections.
Why has Milliband not made a similar choice? Time is running out. Can't fatten a pig on market day
Maybe because the indy ref is a genuine issue to be decided by the Scottish people ? Labour leaders may give speeches from the hustings but no more.
I see the pb ally mcleods are prematurely celebrating yet again. Forget bannockburn remember Argentina '78
Nobody here celebrating , just nice to see the reality we have been pointing out for many months now is sinking in. Care to give us your 1966 speech and enthuse us to vote NO.
Wasn't born in '66 so it doesn't mean much to me. And I suspect England's performance in Brazil is unlikely to cause offence to those who seek offence to be caused. Polls are closer but (with the exception of this ICM) no fairly solid. Good campaign from the Nats so far - if its done one thing it has made real to everyone that Scotland could go it alone if it wanted to which was the first big hurdle so now its a pragmatic one of is it worth it and what are the risks.
If yes Scotland should contribute to the upkeep of Northern Ireland given its central role in creating and stoking the problems in the first place. English taxpayers would end up subsidising Scotland's two leading football clubs through benefit payments to their NI based supporters.
Reasonable answer, but the last 12 polls at least have all shown a move to YES so not quite accurate there. NI is all England's baby and we will want nothing to do with funding past colonial efforts. It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get. This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
I know facts are not your strong point but the last 12 polls from all pollsters have shown the following ( all in comparison with the previous poll from the same pollster )
5 have shown a decrease in the NO lead 3 have shown no change in the lead at all 4 have shown an increase in the No lead
There is no narrowing of the lead , the position is static because most people have made up their minds and did so ages ago . All you are seeing is MofE variations from poll to poll .
yeah yeah and the moon is made of blue cheese. I think I believe the unionist Prof Curtice more than I believe you, even he has admitted it is a steady flow to YES. Dream on.
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
I'm really feelin' the love.
divvie I gave you first choice you said no, too late to cry about lost love.
Try Mr T.
I was expecting a strategic love bombing campaign, not an overnight nuisance raider.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head h the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
"If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen"
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
Scotland will be in the EU but not on the same terms as present. It will cost you.
Tory masters perception = load of made up bollocks.
really, I had hoped for a bit better from you as someone who's "openminded", haven't you claimed to have lived outside Scotland ? Dubious.
I said, not my perception, and remember I'm the one who keeps pointing out there are more Tories in Scotland than is generally assumed - not least by the London media!
Okay, to save you getting hung up on a point of detail, let's delete Tory masters and put Tory allies in the unionist campaign, and so we can move to the key issue, which is that nobody has explained to me how the central dilemma can be resolved. Scottish Labour pols who have climbed far enough up the cursus honorum to be MPs and MSPs have a lot to lose and nothing obvious to gain from going over the top when the polls show a 1:1 balance. Not enough to go over the wire to the other side, not yet, but ...
sheesh carnyx if you can't get hung up on a point of detail there's no reason for being a scot.
Well perhaps! But it's a reminder not to get too metaphorical with the detail at times, and your correction did in fact improve it. Anyway, my central query still stands and I will be interested to see how it develops ...
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
You might be correct, Mr. Brooke. Many years ago when I did some work in your homeland I met some rabid, bigoted idiots (on both sides of the divide) but they were intellectual titans compared to some of the tosh being espoused by some of the Scots Nats.
I suppose it does explain why so many Scots in places like Glasgow have kept voting Labour all these years despite their lives not improving and a lower life expectancy than some third world hell holes.
We have a great deal in common; the differences are less important than the myriad of things we have in common. We have a shared history and a shared future. We are more than friends; we are family.
What is more, we will both be more prosperous together than divided. It is not a zero-sum game: being together benefits both sides more than if we were divided. As a united Kingdom, we are larger than the sum of our parts. We can offer each other security and friendship.
Being together does not mean anyone has to lose their identity: your identity, my identity, even SeanT's identity, are all welcome.
And to bring this to F1: you provide the drivers, and we'll provide the cars, ;-)
(Waits to get flamed by the usual suspects)
Just wishy washy waffle, not one thing that is a fact that makes it better. Pure fanny speak when you have nothing factual to add. Let me show you a fact. Scotland when independent will get rid of Bedroom tax , will reduce or get rid of APD , both of these are detrimental to Scottish interests but are applied due to westminster. Try giving us a fact rather than wonk speak.
PS:the only decent thing you posted security and friendship do not disappear just because we are independent. Lots and lots of independent countries are friendly and work together on security.
It's not wishy washy waffle: it's positive.
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
JJ you are living up to your name and being a big jessie today. It is just waffle, political wonk speak and means nothing. It is fact free.
If you want fact free, then look at the 'Yes' campaign in relation to things like the currency you will use after independence.
I wouldn't expect you to be persuaded by *any* argument the Yes campaign put forward. Therefore your casual dismissal can be safely ignored. The No campaign are after the hearts and minds of people who are less (ahem) strident in their opinions.
Telling people lies is not the way to win votes , especially when it is obvious you are a lie and your lies can be unpicked by a 5 year old. Whilst YES do not have all the answers they at least have a plan and a vision of a better country. NO just wish to continue with poverty , inequality , foodbanks, tax evasion and nuclear weapons. Hard for them to be positive.
Why is it that Labour have chosen not to re-direct most of their resources (cash and manpower) to the indeyref? In contrast to the AV ref, when the Conservatives saw that there was a chance of losing the AV ref, cash and manpower was re-directed to the AV ref many months before. My recollection was this happened about 6 months before but it could have been less. It had the effect of shoring up the No campaign but it did remove resources from that year's local elections. The Conservative Leadership rationalised that winning the AV ref was more important than the local elections.
Why has Milliband not made a similar choice? Time is running out. Can't fatten a pig on market day
Maybe because the indy ref is a genuine issue to be decided by the Scottish people ? Labour leaders may give speeches from the hustings but no more.
Dunno. But it is germane to point out that there is no separate Scottish Labour Party, so that makes it all the more puzzling they are being remarkably laid back, unless there is some simple reason such as the one which I hypothetized.
Bigger boys did it and ran away doesn't wash. Why not have the honesty to say - we were central to and benefited from Empire but now we want to move on, leave England to deal with the last knockings and live off the oil for a while whilst we try to strengthen our wider economy. That's the real story isn't it?
I suspect we'll be hearing English nats making the same point (minus the oil) if you do go, about Wales and NI. Like most European nationalisms it is essentially the richer bits circling the wagons. Natural reaction to the economic crisis but lets not try and enoble it.
I think giving all our oil for the last 40 years more than repays any benefits we got. Those went to an elite few in any case, the overall population did not get much out it except death or hard labour. Your expectation that we should be beholden to England and let them waste what is left of our natural resources would tend to show that you may indeed be with the bigger boys who like running away with it all. I want decisions made in Scotland by a government voted for in Scotland , not dictated to by a bunch of Tories elected elsewhere. I fail to see where anyone has tried to enoble independence, any normal human being would naturally like to be free to run their own affairs, only slaves are ordered around and told what to do by others.
Very silly post Richard. Scotland is part of our country. They are our brethren. They are equal to any other UK citizen and just as valued. This is about dismembering ourselves - severing one of our own limbs - not waving off a quarrelsome ungrateful (and heavily patronised) child into the sunset..
No, I think you are viewing early/middle twentieth-century history through 21st century eyes. The attachment to Empire was at least as strong, emotionally, as the union with Scotland. An Englishman, or Scotsman, could and did view the entire Empire as home, as somewhere to go and live, as something to be incredibly proud of, and the population (or at least the white population) as brethren:
As o’er each continent and island The dawn leads on another day, The voice of prayer is never silent, Nor dies the strain of praise away.
The sun that bids us rest is waking Our brethren ’neath the western sky, And hour by hour fresh lips are making Thy wondrous doings heard on high.
Richard: please re-read your post again. Its tone just doesn't read right. It comes across as an Englishman being very patronising and condescending to Scots. I find such posts very frustrating because they are entirely counterproductive to the unionist cause.
Even if you won't admit it on here, I trust you're an intelligent and honest enough man to admit that to yourself privately, offline.
This is a site for trying to work out what's going on not for swaying floating voters, so unless they're personally running for office there's no need for people posting here to worry about what cause their comments may or may not be counter-productive to.
With respect, EiT, I've been posting on this site on and off for almost 10 years. I don't need you to tell me what this site is, and isn't, for.
I was trying to point out that Richard's post was counterproductive to the cause I understand he professes to support, whilst explaining why. If I've misrepresented his views, I'm happy to be corrected. If he tells me he doesn't care what effect his posts have, then I won't raise it again. But I drew attention to it as far too many erstwhile unionists make similar unforced errors.
The No campaign tell us Scotland won't be in the EU, or is that a fib too?
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
If the Scots are prepared to believe that Scottish Labour people are doing their Tory masters' bidding then surely there is no point in anyone doing any campaigning. If people are stupid enough to believe that then they are beyond any reason.
IScotland wil lend up ruled by plankton - they have a greater intellectual capacity.
I'm really feelin' the love.
divvie I gave you first choice you said no, too late to cry about lost love.
Try Mr T.
I was expecting a strategic love bombing campaign, not an overnight nuisance raider.
Eck's offering you a knee-trembler followed by hot wet trickle down your kilt, here on the Unionist side we're more in to long term rewarding relationships and free haggis.
Just wishy washy waffle, not one thing that is a fact that makes it better. Pure fanny speak when you have nothing factual to add. Let me show you a fact. Scotland when independent will get rid of Bedroom tax , will reduce or get rid of APD , both of these are detrimental to Scottish interests but are applied due to westminster. Try giving us a fact rather than wonk speak.
PS:the only decent thing you posted security and friendship do not disappear just because we are independent. Lots and lots of independent countries are friendly and work together on security.
It's not wishy washy waffle: it's positive.
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
Telling people lies is not the way to win votes , especially when it is obvious you are a lie and your lies can be unpicked by a 5 year old. Whilst YES do not have all the answers they at least have a plan and a vision of a better country. NO just wish to continue with poverty , inequality , foodbanks, tax evasion and nuclear weapons. Hard for them to be positive.
Telling people lies is not the way to win votes
you've just undermined the YES campaign.
Now you are at the porkies Alan. Truth and honesty is the YES motto. We are up against a nest of vipers and refuse to be dragged down to their gutter level.
I see the pb ally mcleods are prematurely celebrating yet again. Forget bannockburn remember Argentina '78
Nobody here celebrating , just nice to see the reality we have been pointing out for many months now is sinking in. Care to give us your 1966 speech and enthuse us to vote NO.
Wasn't born in '66 so it doesn't mean much to me. And I suspect England's performance in Brazil is unlikely to cause offence to those who seek offence to be caused. Polls are closer but (with the exception of this ICM) no fairly solid. Good campaign from the Nats so far - if its done one thing it has made real to everyone that Scotland could go it alone if it wanted to which was the first big hurdle so now its a pragmatic one of is it worth it and what are the risks.
If yes Scotland should contribute to the upkeep of Northern Ireland given its central role in creating and stoking the problems in the first place. English taxpayers would end up subsidising Scotland's two leading football clubs through benefit payments to their NI based supporters.
Reasonable answer, but the last 12 polls at least have all shown a move to YES so not quite accurate there. NI is all England's baby and we will want nothing to do with funding past colonial efforts. It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get. This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
I know facts are not your strong point but the last 12 polls from all pollsters have shown the following ( all in comparison with the previous poll from the same pollster )
5 have shown a decrease in the NO lead 3 have shown no change in the lead at all 4 have shown an increase in the No lead
There is no narrowing of the lead , the position is static because most people have made up their minds and did so ages ago . All you are seeing is MofE variations from poll to poll .
The trend in ICM is clear. If the next ICM shows a nationalist lead will you continue to beat this drum?
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
JJ you are living up to your name and being a big jessie today. It is just waffle, political wonk speak and means nothing. It is fact free.
If you want fact free, then look at the 'Yes' campaign in relation to things like the currency you will use after independence.
I wouldn't expect you to be persuaded by *any* argument the Yes campaign put forward. Therefore your casual dismissal can be safely ignored. The No campaign are after the hearts and minds of people who are less (ahem) strident in their opinions.
Telling people lies is not the way to win votes , especially when it is obvious you are a lie and your lies can be unpicked by a 5 year old. Whilst YES do not have all the answers they at least have a plan and a vision of a better country. NO just wish to continue with poverty , inequality , foodbanks, tax evasion and nuclear weapons. Hard for them to be positive.
Saying "Telling people lies is not the way to win votes", and following it with a series of lies about the other campaign is rather hilarious. ROTFLMAO, LOL, YHBI etc.
You see, despite what you may think, I do have a sense of humour. ;-)
Comments
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2608676/UKIP-founder-calls-Farage-dim-racist-alcoholic-poll-says-MP.html
http://survation.com/still-a-3-way-marginal-new-polling-in-eastleigh-constituency-survation-for-alan-bown/
http://www.firstfoot.com/dictionary/f.html
LOL
Jist a sneaky wee prod and away they go like clockwork .
It will indeed be interesting going forward , now that even the extreme right wingers on here are shrieking, what panics will befall us as the drift continues. How more mental can the disasters and pestilence that will befall us get.
This week will be a laugh as the clunking fist finds another black hole even bigger than his last one and Ed Dumbledore brings his pygmy shadow troughing cabinet up to tell us how much he cares about us.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/10776952/David-Bailey-unveils-new-portrait-of-The-Queen.html
You clearly don't understand your own history.
Anyhoo I though one of your grandfather was a bowler hatted one ?
The way you speak on here, any friendliness will soon go out of the window. Fortunately, you do not speak for the majority of Scots. Typical of the utterly negative 'no' campaign ... :-)
PS I do know the history, but as ever these things were orchestrated from elsewhere, using cannon fodder, willing , greedy or otherwise inclined.
Mr. M, yeah, I saw that. I doubt it'll have much impact. Both teams will be hoping for a low teens finish or two to 'see off' the backmarker competition.
Mr. Putney, it's unlikely.
In a Telegraph podcast the other day Louise Mensch said MPs don't give a fig about the EU Parliament elections.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10769926/Google-hangout-Why-is-Ukip-still-stealing-Conservative-voters.html
Would you agree with that? Do MPs give any weight to the results of the May local, and EU Parliament elections?
I wouldn't expect you to be persuaded by *any* argument the Yes campaign put forward. Therefore your casual dismissal can be safely ignored. The No campaign are after the hearts and minds of people who are less (ahem) strident in their opinions.
If it is an outsider voice telling the Scots what to do, they will just not listen. (Nothing to do with race: but everything to do with perceived interference.)
If it is a Labour MP or MSP for a Scottish constituency, no way will they dare to put their head up over the parapet and follow the bidding of their Tory masters, for fear of losing up to 50% of their vote at the next UK or Scottish GE, given the current numbers in the indy polls. (Remember a lot of the voting is tactical, to keep Tories out.) It makes more sense for an individual MP to risk losing the indy vote from the individual's point of view (only 50% whereas campaigning risks 75% or so when one does the permutation matrix). And why worry if you are a MSP? The Scottish Parliament will still be there, with the Labour-gerrymandered voting system.
And if it is a native Labour peer, then self-interest is all too obvious.
Same problems for the LDs. Who are they going to send? Rinka the Alsatian?
The PB 2014 Mk 2 game seems to be shuddering to a finish with Germany and now England NMRing and so giving France and Russia massive advantages.
If anyone wants to join a new game, PB 2014 Mk3 is up and waiting (password catsandkittens)
The PB Death Match is living up to expectations, though. Germany and Austria are going to have to get off the fence soon and then there will be fireworks.
Former cabinet buffoon Liam 'where's my Werrity' Fox is providing plenty of SLAB stye comedy as well today. They just can't help themselves, can they?
5 have shown a decrease in the NO lead
3 have shown no change in the lead at all
4 have shown an increase in the No lead
There is no narrowing of the lead , the position is static because most people have made up their minds and did so ages ago . All you are seeing is MofE variations from poll to poll .
they will if it's a german Chancellor.
and as for the Tory masters - really what planet are you on ?
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090729060738/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/e/ef/Rinka1.jpg/200px-Rinka1.jpg
Thanks goodness Rennard doesn't seem to have any prominent pets.
That's the real story isn't it?
I suspect we'll be hearing English nats making the same point (minus the oil) if you do go, about Wales and NI. Like most European nationalisms it is essentially the richer bits circling the wagons. Natural reaction to the economic crisis but lets not try and enoble it.
As for the Tory masters, it's a matter of perception. Not mine, but the Scottish public. If Labour are seen to do the now increasingly public and strident bidding of the Tories, that is the way it will be seen.
I have made this point about the existential dilemma facing Labour in Scotland and nobody on this site has, so far as I am aware, explained how to resolve this.
Tory masters perception = load of made up bollocks.
really, I had hoped for a bit better from you as someone who's "openminded", haven't you claimed to have lived outside Scotland ? Dubious.
We can swap quotes either way; the fact remains there is no precedent and no firm law regarding it.
The problem is that it, like so many other points pertaining to independence, are arguable and debatable.
Pucker up Porkie.
One thing that did strike me in Westminster was just how little contact there was with MPs of any other party or assembly. I met an MSP once in 13 years; I don't think I ever met a Welsh AM; I just occasionally met an MEP. I once around 2003 expressed interest in standing for the European Parliament - there was much head-scratching as the rules were consulted for this almost unprecedented event, and eventually I was told I'd need to resign as an MP before I could even be considered as a possible MEP candidate - a drastic and probably unintended effect of the wording of the "no dual mandate" rule.
The basic attitude was that they were all separate worlds. It seemed a pity, as potentially we could have been learning from each other or making joint initiatives, but I was too busy to do much about it.
Why has Milliband not made a similar choice? Time is running out. Can't fatten a pig on market day
Better Together alliance with Tories has damaged Labour
Less than a quarter of respondents (24%) said Labour had not been damaged, whilst 45% said they thought Labour had been harmed by the Tory alliance. Of those who said they thought Johann Lamont's party had been damaged, 22% thought Labour had been damaged a lot.
Thirty one per cent of respondents said they did not know if Labour had been damaged or not.
Excluding those who said they didn't know, the results show two thirds (66%) believe Labour has been harmed, with only a third (34%) saying the party has not been damaged.
Further analysis of the survey found:
Almost half (48%) of Labour voters surveyed said they thought their party had been damaged
62% of Labour voters who gave an answer felt the party had been damaged
75% of undecided voters who gave an answer to the question believe it has damaged Labour
Only 40% of No voters think it has NOT damaged Labour
Some senior Labour figures are believed to be uncomfortable with the party being seen to be working alongside the Conservatives against independence.
In January, Labour MP Jim Murphy [On left of image] - who has appeared alongside Tory MSP Jackson Carlaw [Second right] promoting Better Together - described the Conservative party as "poisonous".
Labour launched its own anti-independence splinter group last May in a bid at appeasing some traditional Labour organisations who had expressed dismay at the party’s role in Better Together.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8912-better-together-alliance-with-tories-has-damaged-labour
So show us all the polling which contradicts that and explain just why the lib dems have been all but wiped out in scotland? Even SLAB and labour voters know perfectly well that the danger is quite real. The PB tories, as always, just don't have a clue.
FWIW I've stated before here that I think Scotland would do very well as an independent country, once they'd adjusted to the Thatcherite shock of embracing self-reliance and had remembered their historic virtues of entrepreneurship, prudence, hard work, and canniness. It's a remarkably diverse economy for such a small country, and they have strengths in some key sectors. That is why I think it so odd that Salmond has made such a dog's breakfast of major issues such as the currency, EU membership, defence, pensions, and the financial services industry. And that in turn is why I don't think that, when it actually comes to the vote, the Yes side will win; Salmond has won the emotional argument, but has decisively lost the practical and economic arguments.
I may be wrong, of course.
Okay, to save you getting hung up on a point of detail, let's delete Tory masters and put Tory allies in the unionist campaign, and so we can move to the key issue, which is that nobody has explained to me how the central dilemma can be resolved. Scottish Labour pols who have climbed far enough up the cursus honorum to be MPs and MSPs have a lot to lose and nothing obvious to gain from going over the top when the polls show a 1:1 balance. Not enough to go over the wire to the other side, not yet, but ...
Try Mr T.
Whilst YES do not have all the answers they at least have a plan and a vision of a better country. NO just wish to continue with poverty , inequality , foodbanks, tax evasion and nuclear weapons. Hard for them to be positive.
I was expecting a strategic love bombing campaign, not an overnight nuisance raider.
I suppose it does explain why so many Scots in places like Glasgow have kept voting Labour all these years despite their lives not improving and a lower life expectancy than some third world hell holes.
you've just undermined the YES campaign.
We'll see ...
Your expectation that we should be beholden to England and let them waste what is left of our natural resources would tend to show that you may indeed be with the bigger boys who like running away with it all.
I want decisions made in Scotland by a government voted for in Scotland , not dictated to by a bunch of Tories elected elsewhere.
I fail to see where anyone has tried to enoble independence, any normal human being would naturally like to be free to run their own affairs, only slaves are ordered around and told what to do by others.
I was trying to point out that Richard's post was counterproductive to the cause I understand he professes to support, whilst explaining why. If I've misrepresented his views, I'm happy to be corrected. If he tells me he doesn't care what effect his posts have, then I won't raise it again. But I drew attention to it as far too many erstwhile unionists make similar unforced errors.
really ? which of the many economic arguments are you claiming is true ? With Eck it's say anything and hang the consequences.
If the next ICM shows a nationalist lead will you continue to beat this drum?
You see, despite what you may think, I do have a sense of humour. ;-)