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Why understanding the alternative vote system is so important – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,039
edited 1:12PM in General
Why understanding the alternative vote system is so important – politicalbetting.com

Whilst I do think Sir Keir Starmer will remain Labour leader in 2026 one of the reasons I thought if he was ousted this year his successor would be Angela Rayner was that the Labour party uses the alternative vote system to elect their leaders.

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  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,117
    edited 1:15PM
    First choice, not transfer friendly though.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,101
    Its on my to do list. Honest.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,533
    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,507
    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,988
    I do love the Isle of Wight, but a lot of the people here are rougher than a Badger's ring.
  • Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    Thank God for Lord Trump, doing the work to reopen the Strait he closed
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,251
    edited 1:29PM
    DavidL said:

    Its on my to do list. Honest.

    I am happy to publish weekly threads on the alternative vote system to help you understand it better.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,165
    On the London Has Fallen thing.

    It seems to keep falling. But is never Picked Up.

    It is starting to remind me of those films where cars drivers furiously change up. But never down. So by the end, they are driving in 135th gear.

    Or perhaps it’s like that chap with the castle and the swamp - they keep building new Londons which fall into a swamp?

    Anyone know??
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,165

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,586
    An AV thread: What an Easter treat!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,481
    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    How the f*** many times a day is Ashcroft's non BPC poll going to posted this week?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,294
    Trump’s rapid decoupling from propriety and sentience certainly bodes well for the upcoming royal visit.

    Toast the fuckin’ king you crazy bastards. Praise be to Wotan!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,251

    An AV thread: What an Easter treat!

    The second one this week.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,743

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    I don't think his polls are part of the British Polling Council so a lot of poll agregators like ElectionMaps won't use it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,117
    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    At least he didn't use the bad F word, you know, the one with the 'g' on the end.

    https://youtu.be/XLTnacYvvg4?si=RAkGE3waCMte2lfP
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,104
    Even if you're the most transfer friendly candidate, don't you still need some people to make you their first option to get any transfers?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582
    Andy_JS said:

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    I don't think his polls are part of the British Polling Council so a lot of poll agregators like ElectionMaps won't use it.
    RefCon on just 41.4% is hogwash.
  • Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582
    Pro_Rata said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    At least he didn't use the bad F word, you know, the one with the 'g' on the end.

    https://youtu.be/XLTnacYvvg4?si=RAkGE3waCMte2lfP
    I thought Farag had an e on the end.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 858
    AnneJGP said:

    Even if you're the most transfer friendly candidate, don't you still need some people to make you their first option to get any transfers?

    Yep. Unless the Marquis de Condorcet gets a say in it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I wonder whether had he won the GE, would Big Rish have told Trump to do one?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,341

    DavidL said:

    Its on my to do list. Honest.

    I am happy to publish weekly threads on the alternative vote system to help you understand it better.
    "On my to do list" is one of those British expressions foreigners don't get. @DavidL will be saying "I'll bear it in mind" next about your AV threads.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,170

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    https://bsky.app/profile/leftiestats.bsky.social
    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-March-2026-Full-tables.xls
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,101
    edited 2:11PM
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Its on my to do list. Honest.

    I am happy to publish weekly threads on the alternative vote system to help you understand it better.
    "On my to do list" is one of those British expressions foreigners don't get. @DavidL will be saying "I'll bear it in mind" next about your AV threads.
    It was well deployed by Shrek when Fiona asks him incredulously that he hadn't disposed of the dragon yet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 71,086
    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    Does that mean he has moved the deadline yet again? Now Tuesday rather than Monday.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 858
    Pro_Rata said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    At least he didn't use the bad F word, you know, the one with the 'g' on the end.

    https://youtu.be/XLTnacYvvg4?si=RAkGE3waCMte2lfP
    Maybe the "Praise be to Allah" will finally see him removed by his Christian soldiers Vance and Hegseth.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 71,086
    "Always let your enemy know when you are losing your shit through frustration at your side's failure to win a battle"

    Sun Tzu - The Art of War

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 127,251
    edited 2:14PM
    Gaussian said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    At least he didn't use the bad F word, you know, the one with the 'g' on the end.

    https://youtu.be/XLTnacYvvg4?si=RAkGE3waCMte2lfP
    Maybe the "Praise be to Allah" will finally see him removed by his Christian soldiers Vance and Hegseth.
    This means Donald Trump has said ‘praise be to Allah’ more times this year than me.

    #GoodMuslim
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,888
    edited 2:17PM
    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,888
    edited 2:18PM
    Gaussian said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    At least he didn't use the bad F word, you know, the one with the 'g' on the end.

    https://youtu.be/XLTnacYvvg4?si=RAkGE3waCMte2lfP
    Maybe the "Praise be to Allah" will finally see him removed by his Christian soldiers Vance and Hegseth.
    The Democrats should impeach him for that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 71,086

    Gaussian said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    At least he didn't use the bad F word, you know, the one with the 'g' on the end.

    https://youtu.be/XLTnacYvvg4?si=RAkGE3waCMte2lfP
    Maybe the "Praise be to Allah" will finally see him removed by his Christian soldiers Vance and Hegseth.
    This means Donald Trump has said ‘praise be to Allah’ more times this year than me.

    #GoodMuslim

    New photo from the White House:


    https://x.com/SpencerHakimian/status/2040795218404909176
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,165

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    Does that mean he has moved the deadline yet again? Now Tuesday rather than Monday.
    See You Next Tuesday seems to be Trumps thing, really.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,872

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I wonder whether had he won the GE, would Big Rish have told Trump to do one?
    No he'd have sat on Trumps knee and taken his mistress to sit under the desk.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,533

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    We are involved in ‘defensive’ work
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,872

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    Jenrick would have had the Tories on 25% easily and no defects to Reform.

    Nandy is an excellent communicator, always good on programmes like QT, often not got the roles she deserves but I don't think she's leadership material.

    Long Bailey, I cannot think of a single redeeming factor. Should have been turfed out ages ago with Burgon, Mccarthy, Abbot and a few others
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,165
    Taz said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    We are involved in ‘defensive’ work
    But not offensive “work”. Or slightly rude “work”. Or a bit in your face “work”.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,872

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    How the f*** many times a day is Ashcroft's non BPC poll going to posted this week?
    Daily Mail readers don't you feel sorry for them, such simple pleasures
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    That's a pretty stupid way to frame the question if you look at the way the defence budget is parcelled out.
    The reason that it provides so little in the way of equipment is that we try to do too many things (nuclear deterrent, carriers, Ajax, GCAP etc) within an inadequate budget.

    There are also a lot of fixed costs which have to be covered within that £68bn before a penny is spent on new capacity. Any additional spending isn't touched by that.

    The marginal benefit of a few extra billion would be considerable (though you are quite correct to criticise the MoD's procurement competence).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,101
    edited 2:35PM
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    I broadly agree, with the exception of drones which we basically cannot have too many of. The first and most urgent priority is to turn our paper strength into actual strength and then make sure that they have enough ammo to operate for more than a week. Its not going to be cheap. Perhaps we could go from 134 admirals to 1 at the same time. #More and more for less and less.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582
    Brixian59 said:

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    Jenrick would have had the Tories on 25% easily and no defects to Reform.

    Nandy is an excellent communicator, always good on programmes like QT, often not got the roles she deserves but I don't think she's leadership material.

    Long Bailey, I cannot think of a single redeeming factor. Should have been turfed out ages ago with Burgon, Mccarthy, Abbot and a few others
    And Starmer is?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,177
    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,201
    edited 2:40PM
    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    Under Kemi, any other plausible Tory Leader, Farage, or indeed a Blairite labour leader we would have bombed Iran to get a pat on the head from DJT.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582
    edited 2:49PM
    rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    Under Kemi, any other plausible Tory Leader, Farage, or indeed a Blairite labour leader we would have bombed Iran to get a pat on the head from DJT.
    But with Johnsonian tactical guile and genius we'd already have occupied Tehran and benzene would be a pound a litre.

    #gotallthebigcallsright
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    It's a lot of waffle that doesn't really address the root cause - the QE class carriers.

    The 1SL at the time sacrificed much, expended all possible political capital and frankly lied about the crewing requirements to get them across the line. The thought at the Admiralty was that if the carriers were acquired then the government would have beef up the rest of the fleet to form a realistic strike group. That just didn't happen.

    The rationale usually advanced for the carriers is that we're an island nation, trade routes, etc. Well a vital a trade route is closed and where the fuck are they?
    That was pretty obviously delusional, even back then.
    But it's arguably a fair representation of how the services think about procurement.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,888
    Nigelb said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    That's a pretty stupid way to frame the question if you look at the way the defence budget is parcelled out.
    The reason that it provides so little in the way of equipment is that we try to do too many things (nuclear deterrent, carriers, Ajax, GCAP etc) within an inadequate budget.

    There are also a lot of fixed costs which have to be covered within that £68bn before a penny is spent on new capacity. Any additional spending isn't touched by that.

    The marginal benefit of a few extra billion would be considerable (though you are quite correct to criticise the MoD's procurement competence).
    That was the point I was making. Based on the MOD's record so far, an extra £68 billion might not get you any additional capability, because they might double the number of destroyers without bothering to recruit the sailors or develop the facilities to maintain them.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,522
    Not to worry.

    Trump now says there’s a good chance of a deal before the deadline to carpet bomb Iran !

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    That's a pretty stupid way to frame the question if you look at the way the defence budget is parcelled out.
    The reason that it provides so little in the way of equipment is that we try to do too many things (nuclear deterrent, carriers, Ajax, GCAP etc) within an inadequate budget.

    There are also a lot of fixed costs which have to be covered within that £68bn before a penny is spent on new capacity. Any additional spending isn't touched by that.

    The marginal benefit of a few extra billion would be considerable (though you are quite correct to criticise the MoD's procurement competence).
    That was the point I was making. Based on the MOD's record so far, an extra £68 billion might not get you any additional capability, because they might double the number of destroyers without bothering to recruit the sailors or develop the facilities to maintain them.
    I get the rhetorical point, but there's a practical one, too.
    If our budget were (say) £20bn a year higher, the current structure of the armed services, and the number of things we're trying to do simply wouldn't look as irrational as it currently does. (We could even afford just to write off Ajax.)

    There are certainly issues of competence, and refusal to move with the times (one reason Ukraine refuses to train its soldiers outside of Ukraine any more), but the irrationality starts with the politicians, in insisting we can do stuff, without providing the funds for it.

    Note that the funding plan, promised last summer, is still not published. How could the MoD possibly even begin to do sensible stuff (even if it were capable if that) in those circumstances ?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,148

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    I voted for Nandy!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942
    If there is no more money, then we have to decide what are priorities.

    As a simple example, the defence of the UK does not require the army to have expensive new armour. It does require air defence against missile and drone threats.

    Beyond that simple level, it gets complicated; and the less money there is, the more complicated it gets.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 482
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    That's a pretty stupid way to frame the question if you look at the way the defence budget is parcelled out.
    The reason that it provides so little in the way of equipment is that we try to do too many things (nuclear deterrent, carriers, Ajax, GCAP etc) within an inadequate budget.

    There are also a lot of fixed costs which have to be covered within that £68bn before a penny is spent on new capacity. Any additional spending isn't touched by that.

    The marginal benefit of a few extra billion would be considerable (though you are quite correct to criticise the MoD's procurement competence).
    That was the point I was making. Based on the MOD's record so far, an extra £68 billion might not get you any additional capability, because they might double the number of destroyers without bothering to recruit the sailors or develop the facilities to maintain them.
    Between the Scylla of the welfare spend and the Charybdis of the MoD we are truly scre**d!😃
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,904

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    I voted for Nandy!
    Almost all PB Labs did, I think. Go figure.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,870
    Buildhub Appeal
    ------------------

    I think several here have benefitted from Buildhub advice (I am a moderator there) at various times.

    It is a volunteer run, community owned (Company Limited by Guarantee), self-build and renovation forum now with 23k members, which does not do adverts or sponsorships.

    There is a donations drive currently, to top up an income received from tool loans (we have a library of things like anemometers that are posted around the country) and Octopus referrals. This is the first one for 3 years.

    If you have benefitted (and it taught me much of what I know), then please consider a donation.

    Link with details: https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/46969-funding-the-forum-appeal-to-members-2026

    (I'll post this again tomorrow - Monday, only.)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582
    nico67 said:

    Not to worry.

    Trump now says there’s a good chance of a deal before the deadline to carpet bomb Iran !

    Brilliant brinkmanship. Another win and another FIFA Peace Prize in cabinet at Mar a Lago.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,988

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    I wish Lord Ashcroft fans would explain this.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,768
    Off topic: Happy Easter to all those who celebrate it, today!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,133
    Happy Easter

    I missed the lamb discussion earlier, but I too had lamb for lunch. A rather fabulous Scotch pie...

    I also saw this earlier, and can't decide if it's genius or insanity

    The sheep think the job of the shepherd is to stop the wolf from eating them

    Then they realise the shepherd is the one who will eat them
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,985
    kinabalu said:

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    I voted for Nandy!
    Almost all PB Labs did, I think. Go figure.
    I voted for Starmer. My wife voted for Nandy. But she's left. And I'm staying in only to make sure Starmer gets voted out later in 2026.

    Totally agree with TSE's thread, by the way.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 38,582

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    I voted for Nandy!
    I didn't.*

    * Caveat emptor, I haven't been a member for fifteen years.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,522
    edited 3:26PM
    This from the BBC .

    “Mahdi Tabatabaei, an aide at Iran’s President’s Office, says the Strait of Hormuz “will be reopened” when “a portion of transit tolls is used to compensate for all the damage caused” by the war.

    Iranian officials and lawmakers have previously raised the possibility of imposing transit fees or tolls on vessels using the strait.”

    Is this a softening of the Iranian position ? Or am I being overly optimistic?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,042
    Scott_xP said:

    Happy Easter

    I missed the lamb discussion earlier, but I too had lamb for lunch. A rather fabulous Scotch pie...

    I also saw this earlier, and can't decide if it's genius or insanity

    The sheep think the job of the shepherd is to stop the wolf from eating them

    Then they realise the shepherd is the one who will eat them

    The shepherd can't afford to buy good quality meat!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,133
    nico67 said:

    This from the BBC .

    “Mahdi Tabatabaei, an aide at Iran’s President’s Office, says the Strait of Hormuz “will be reopened” when “a portion of transit tolls is used to compensate for all the damage caused” by the war.

    Iranian officials and lawmakers have previously raised the possibility of imposing transit fees or tolls on vessels using the strait.”

    Is this a softening of the Iranian position ? Or am I being overly optimistic.

    The strait is open to vessels who pay the toll, apart from the US and Israel
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 102,051

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    How the f*** many times a day is Ashcroft's non BPC poll going to posted this week?
    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 102,051

    nico67 said:

    Not to worry.

    Trump now says there’s a good chance of a deal before the deadline to carpet bomb Iran !

    Brilliant brinkmanship. Another win and another FIFA Peace Prize in cabinet at Mar a Lago.
    I assume it comes with a cash prize.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 102,051
    edited 3:32PM
    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
    There was sufficient evidence of that during the 2024 campaign imo but it didn't cost him. Nor did the attempted insurrection, two impeachments, all the criminal indictments, ten years of deranged trash talking, pedo links, a rape judgement, "grab em by the pussy", openly racist sneering, mocking the disabled, unashamed corruption on an epic scale, subversion of democratic norms, and that's just off the top of my head. Apols for omissions. Point is, it hasn't stopped him and I guess he's feeling inviolate by now.
    For good reason. He's immune from any criminal sanction, he's doubled or tripled his wealth in the last two years, not even including the opportunities for his children, and he's at a point where it is not even that the GOP pretends to approve of his every policy and every utterance, no matter how crude - they genuinely approve of it, and seek to emulate him. If he goes in the next few years they will immortalise him somehow.

    For Trump, every day is close to heaven, which makes it even crazier than he is so angry all the time.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,904
    edited 3:32PM
    Nigelb said:

    If there is no more money, then we have to decide what are priorities.

    As a simple example, the defence of the UK does not require the army to have expensive new armour. It does require air defence against missile and drone threats.

    Beyond that simple level, it gets complicated; and the less money there is, the more complicated it gets.

    Perhaps we'd benefit from higher spec smaller scope. Rather than trying to cover a multitude of functionalities and geographical locations, net it down to the real essentials and do those to a good standard. So, for example, homeland defence plus the capability to play a full part in maintaining the security of the European continent in tandem with our European partners who share that common interest. In the short term this latter objective being mainly about supporting Ukraine against Russia. Fund all of this properly and let go of aspirations to be a force further afield, eg Middle East, Pacific etc.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,417

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    I wish Lord Ashcroft fans would explain this.
    There was an equivalent poll in mid April 2025 - looking at the data tables,which are slightly different, the percentage quoted as Don't Know or Won't Vote was 37% in 2025 and is 36% now so a big pool of potential voters out there to be persuaded or another low turnout election approaches.

    Ashcroft doesn't do anything subtle - the polling simply ignores those who DK or WNV so a sample size of 5,447 is reduced immediately by 1,972. In April 2025, the numbers were:

    Labour: 27%
    Conservatives: 24%
    Reform: 21%
    Greens: 11%
    Liberal Democrats: 10%

    A 10% switch from Labour to Green but otherwise not a lot of change from a year ago. The NEV of the 2025 locals was Reform 30%, Labour 20%, LD 17%, Conservative 15%, Green 11%.

    Can we extrapolate any of this to the 2026 locals and the possible NEV? From where I'm sitting, it looks like Reform still on top though perhaps nearer 25% than 30% and a four way (ooer) for the other parties in which you could conceive of any of Greens, Labour, Conservatives and LDs finishing from second to fifth but statistcally pretty much a dead heat.

    The key element for me will be how many seats will the Greens contest.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,880

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    There is a big difference between precision and accuracy.

    But certainly something for the Boob Whisperer and his devotees to celebrate.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,341
    edited 3:41PM
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    My thinking would be focus on keeping the North Sea and North Atlantic free of threats. Yes to participation in other international efforts, but we're Denmark on those.

    So eg Chagos. Leaving aside the nonsense people spout about actual arrangement, Chagos has zero strategic relevance for the UK. Also Cyprus.

    I accept I have no idea what I'm talking about.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,111
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
    There was sufficient evidence of that during the 2024 campaign imo but it didn't cost him. Nor did the attempted insurrection, two impeachments, all the criminal indictments, ten years of deranged trash talking, pedo links, a rape judgement, "grab em by the pussy", openly racist sneering, mocking the disabled, unashamed corruption on an epic scale, subversion of democratic norms, and that's just off the top of my head. Apols for omissions. Point is, it hasn't stopped him and I guess he's feeling inviolate by now.
    For good reason. He's immune from any criminal sanction, he's doubled or tripled his wealth in the last two years, not even including the opportunities for his children, and he's at a point where it is not even that the GOP pretends to approve of his every policy and every utterance, no matter how crude - they genuinely approve of it, and seek to emulate him. If he goes in the next few years they will immortalise him somehow.

    For Trump, every day is close to heaven, which makes it even crazier than he is so angry all the time.
    There are people who aren't angry because they can't have what they want- being angry is what they want.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Trump fell into that category.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,880

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    I voted for Nandy!
    I voted for Nandy too!
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,533
    nico67 said:

    This from the BBC .

    “Mahdi Tabatabaei, an aide at Iran’s President’s Office, says the Strait of Hormuz “will be reopened” when “a portion of transit tolls is used to compensate for all the damage caused” by the war.

    Iranian officials and lawmakers have previously raised the possibility of imposing transit fees or tolls on vessels using the strait.”

    Is this a softening of the Iranian position ? Or am I being overly optimistic?

    Yes, I think it is a negotiating position. Did you see they were reported to be discussing something with the Omani govt.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,904
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
    There was sufficient evidence of that during the 2024 campaign imo but it didn't cost him. Nor did the attempted insurrection, two impeachments, all the criminal indictments, ten years of deranged trash talking, pedo links, a rape judgement, "grab em by the pussy", openly racist sneering, mocking the disabled, unashamed corruption on an epic scale, subversion of democratic norms, and that's just off the top of my head. Apols for omissions. Point is, it hasn't stopped him and I guess he's feeling inviolate by now.
    For good reason. He's immune from any criminal sanction, he's doubled or tripled his wealth in the last two years, not even including the opportunities for his children, and he's at a point where it is not even that the GOP pretends to approve of his every policy and every utterance, no matter how crude - they genuinely approve of it, and seek to emulate him. If he goes in the next few years they will immortalise him somehow.

    For Trump, every day is close to heaven, which makes it even crazier than he is so angry all the time.
    Yes. He'll be damned by history but it could be, as with Jimmy Savile, that it's only there where it happens. Unsatisfactory.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,945
    The futility of opinion polls this far out

    This was only 6 months prior to the 2019 GE. Jo Swinson declared she would be PM.

    She ended up losing her seat…





    https://x.com/PeterShoreite/status/2040763668950925330?s=20
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,177
    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
    There was sufficient evidence of that during the 2024 campaign imo but it didn't cost him. Nor did the attempted insurrection, two impeachments, all the criminal indictments, ten years of deranged trash talking, pedo links, a rape judgement, "grab em by the pussy", openly racist sneering, mocking the disabled, unashamed corruption on an epic scale, subversion of democratic norms, and that's just off the top of my head. Apols for omissions. Point is, it hasn't stopped him and I guess he's feeling inviolate by now.
    It's a question of those who have the power to remove him are feeling.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    If there is no more money, then we have to decide what are priorities.

    As a simple example, the defence of the UK does not require the army to have expensive new armour. It does require air defence against missile and drone threats.

    Beyond that simple level, it gets complicated; and the less money there is, the more complicated it gets.

    Perhaps we'd benefit from higher spec smaller scope. Rather than trying to cover a multitude of functionalities and geographical locations, net it down to the real essentials and do those to a good standard. So, for example, homeland defence plus the capability to play a full part in maintaining the security of the European continent in tandem with our European partners who share that common interest. In the short term this latter objective being mainly about supporting Ukraine against Russia. Fund all of this properly and let go of aspirations to be a force further afield, eg Middle East, Pacific etc.
    We'd contribute far more in the Pacific region with co-development/collaboration on advanced weapons with Australia, Japan etc , than we ever would trying to send an utterly inadequate carrier into that theatre.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,880
    stodge said:

    🟢 Grn: 21.4% (+2.1)
    ➡️ Ref: 20.9% (-1.4)
    🔵 Con: 20.5% (+0.2)
    🔴 Lab: 17.0% (-0.4)
    🟠 Lib: 9.2% (-1.9)

    Poll: @LordAPolls, 26-30 Mar (+/- vs 19-23 Feb)

    I wish Lord Ashcroft fans would explain this.
    There was an equivalent poll in mid April 2025 - looking at the data tables,which are slightly different, the percentage quoted as Don't Know or Won't Vote was 37% in 2025 and is 36% now so a big pool of potential voters out there to be persuaded or another low turnout election approaches.

    Ashcroft doesn't do anything subtle - the polling simply ignores those who DK or WNV so a sample size of 5,447 is reduced immediately by 1,972. In April 2025, the numbers were:

    Labour: 27%
    Conservatives: 24%
    Reform: 21%
    Greens: 11%
    Liberal Democrats: 10%

    A 10% switch from Labour to Green but otherwise not a lot of change from a year ago. The NEV of the 2025 locals was Reform 30%, Labour 20%, LD 17%, Conservative 15%, Green 11%.

    Can we extrapolate any of this to the 2026 locals and the possible NEV? From where I'm sitting, it looks like Reform still on top though perhaps nearer 25% than 30% and a four way (ooer) for the other parties in which you could conceive of any of Greens, Labour, Conservatives and LDs finishing from second to fifth but statistcally pretty much a dead heat.

    The key element for me will be how many seats will the Greens contest.

    Regarding your final sentence, this should not impact the calculation of NEV if my understanding of the methodology is correct.

    1. Reform
    2. LD
    3. Green
    4. Toss up between Lab and Con
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,904
    edited 3:56PM
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
    There was sufficient evidence of that during the 2024 campaign imo but it didn't cost him. Nor did the attempted insurrection, two impeachments, all the criminal indictments, ten years of deranged trash talking, pedo links, a rape judgement, "grab em by the pussy", openly racist sneering, mocking the disabled, unashamed corruption on an epic scale, subversion of democratic norms, and that's just off the top of my head. Apols for omissions. Point is, it hasn't stopped him and I guess he's feeling inviolate by now.
    It's a question of those who have the power to remove him are feeling.
    Indeed. Appears unlikely atm but it could happen. And the midterms might mitigate some of the worst excesses. Important not to mentally snuff out the bright side. The world has had worse. God he's a menace and a downer though.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,531
    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,533

    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?

    We’re in the position of one of @TheScreamingEagles stepmoms
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,872

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    I voted for Nandy!
    I voted for Nandy too!
    As I said, Lisa has many positive qualities

    Her communication skills are excellent.

    She actually answers questions

    She's in the top 3 or 4 communicators in the Party.

    I just don't think she could handle Party Leadership

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942

    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?

    Leon is grounded.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,165
    Taz said:

    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?

    We’re in the position of one of @TheScreamingEagles stepmoms
    More like a freelance social entertainer in an aquatic adjacent industrial facility.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,988

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?

    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    I'm delighted I didn't vote Jenrick.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,693
    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Taz said:

    FPT

    Trump is fucking nuts pt.94

    He’s played a great hand terribly and been mugged off by Bibi, an incredibly shrewd man. As much as I dislike his politics he is shrewd.


    ‘ BREAKING: President Trump tells Iran “open the f***** Strait of Hormuz, you crazy bastards, or you’ll be living in hell.”

    Trump declares Tuesday as “power plant and bridge day.”’



    https://x.com/kobeissiletter/status/2040766367486427208?s=61

    How could he make it any clearer he is mentally incompetent?
    There was sufficient evidence of that during the 2024 campaign imo but it didn't cost him. Nor did the attempted insurrection, two impeachments, all the criminal indictments, ten years of deranged trash talking, pedo links, a rape judgement, "grab em by the pussy", openly racist sneering, mocking the disabled, unashamed corruption on an epic scale, subversion of democratic norms, and that's just off the top of my head. Apols for omissions. Point is, it hasn't stopped him and I guess he's feeling inviolate by now.
    It's a question of those who have the power to remove him are feeling.
    Indeed. Appears unlikely atm but it could happen. And the midterms might mitigate some of the worst excesses. Important not to mentally snuff out the bright side. The world has had worse. God he's a menace and a downer though.
    I had been opposing Vance as the next Republican candidate. However I had a flash of insight and have backed out of that - happily at a miniscule profit. Trump might not make it and then Vance as president is almost certain for the nomination. (Tricky stuff US political betting, although the lovely Kamala overturned my lifetime losses into shiny profits)

  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,739

    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?

    The astronauts turn their ship back towards the moon.

    "Fuck this shit"
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,872

    rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    Under Kemi, any other plausible Tory Leader, Farage, or indeed a Blairite labour leader we would have bombed Iran to get a pat on the head from DJT.
    But with Johnsonian tactical guile and genius we'd already have occupied Tehran and benzene would be a pound a litre.

    #gotallthebigcallsright
    The sight of Kemi astride a Tank, Thatcher like, would be a sight to behold..not!!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,693
    Nigelb said:

    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?

    Leon is grounded.
    Well given what we know about Leon he's in for a hell of a time if his mum has caught up with him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,988
    FF43 said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Whatever his many faults. We are lucky we have Sir Keir to have stopped the UK from getting involved in the war

    I think that this has more to do with the fact that £68bn a year apparently gives us 1 destroyer that is now deployed off Cyprus. We cannot get involved because we have not got any relevant capacity. This is something we need to do something about.
    I think thta's quite an interesting way to frame the debate. Do we want to raise taxes by £68 billion (or halve the state pension) to get one additional destroyer?

    The 3% on defence crowd need to be resisted, as well as the "25 warships" thing. Let's get what we have working first before we start to consider expanding it. If that requires some extra funding, fine - but it certainly should not be the MOD overseeing that, because they'll try to buy something else we can't staff or maintain.
    My thinking would be focus on keeping the North Sea and North Atlantic free of threats. Yes to participation in other international efforts, but we're Denmark on those.

    So eg Chagos. Leaving aside the nonsense people spout about actual arrangement, Chagos has zero strategic relevance for the UK. Also Cyprus.

    I accept I have no idea what I'm talking about.
    That's right. You don't.

    The UK is a highly globalised and interconnected country. We need stability and secure trade routes worldwide to prosper, and we cannot defend ourselves or our interests on the Kent coast like it's still 1670.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,872

    Brixian59 said:

    Didn't the Ashcroft poll suggest only 13% more likely to vote Labour if Rayner is leader and 30ish% less likely. I mean if the party are that stupid.........

    The evidence of the last few years tends to support the thesis that, when presented with a choice, the members a political party will select the worst option.
    Does it?
    The alternatives to Starmer were Long-Bailey and Nandy.

    The alternative to Badenoch was Jenrick.

    It's just possible that both party memberships learned their lessons, though probably only temporarily.
    With hindsight I'd have taken Nandy over Starmer.

    I suspect had Jenrick beaten Badenoch the Conservatives would have been way ahead of the Farascists. There would be no need for Reform.
    Jenrick would have had the Tories on 25% easily and no defects to Reform.

    Nandy is an excellent communicator, always good on programmes like QT, often not got the roles she deserves but I don't think she's leadership material.

    Long Bailey, I cannot think of a single redeeming factor. Should have been turfed out ages ago with Burgon, Mccarthy, Abbot and a few others
    And Starmer is?
    He's shown excellent leadership on the international stage.

    Played just about every hand spot on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,942
    ‘Proactively fall in line:’ Holocaust Memorial Museum quietly changed content after Trump returned to office

    https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/05/trump-holocaust-museum-00859274?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it
    In the first year of President Donald Trump’s second term, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington quietly removed from its website educational resources about American racism and canceled a workshop about the “fragility of democracy.”
    The changes, which have not been previously reported, came as Trump cracked down on what he called “corrosive ideology” at the Smithsonian Institution, demanding a slew of alterations at the world’s largest museum network to more closely align its content with his worldview. They also coincided with the administration’s efforts to remove content related to diversity, equity and inclusion from federal websites...

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,888
    edited 4:09PM

    So when the last tanker gets here on April 9th or whatever it is, what happens then?

    It's jet fuel, so UK consumption-based carbon emissions nosedive. The cost will disproportionately fall on the richest, and the Lake District/Highlands/Cornwall are going to be chaos a bit like COVID.

    Trump is actually going to do more for climate change and the Green Transition than Miliband could ever dream of.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,341
    edited 4:10PM
    nico67 said:

    This from the BBC .

    “Mahdi Tabatabaei, an aide at Iran’s President’s Office, says the Strait of Hormuz “will be reopened” when “a portion of transit tolls is used to compensate for all the damage caused” by the war.

    Iranian officials and lawmakers have previously raised the possibility of imposing transit fees or tolls on vessels using the strait.”

    Is this a softening of the Iranian position ? Or am I being overly optimistic?

    If Iran keep Hormuz closed, the world will either find alternative routes or will learn to live without Gulf trade, so Iran loses its leverage. If Iran reopens Hormuz under its control, maybe charges a fee but ensures Hormuz remains the cheapest and most efficient option for shipping and products, the world won't put a huge effort into finding alternatives. Iran can still close the Strait if motivated to do so.

    The other thing this does is force other countries to deal with Iran on a bilateral basis when they might not otherwise do so. This includes consuming countries like India and China and also producing countries in the GCC such as Iraq, Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar.
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