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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » GE2015 becomes even more like Premiership football where t

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited April 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » GE2015 becomes even more like Premiership football where the top teams rely on highly-paid foreigners

There’s no doubt that the overnight news on Labour’s Axelrod appointment will cheer the party faithful but I just wonder what Axelrod will be able to bring.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    edited April 2014
    First! But that's maybe cheating,, 'cos I'm in SE Asia! 10am here, 4am in UK!

    Wasn't one of Obama's strengths that he had loads and loads of small-scale local sub-organisers chasing up friends, neighbours, family etc including on the internet. If this Axelrod chappie can organise that …..
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    What happened to Arnie Graff? I thought he was a US import who was going to 'turn things around"?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The deal was finalised last week by Douglas Alexander, the Labour election co-ordinator, and involved what is being described as a six-figure sum to pay for the services of Axelrod and the firm, AKPD, until the general election in May next year.

    Nice to know that COOP money is being put to good use.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Patrick Wintour makes same poirit as OGH (or vice versa):

    British political leaders, like British football chairmen, seem to have rejected homegrown talent, and when it comes to winning elections they now look abroad for strategic brains capable of persuading the British electorate.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/17/david-axelrod-overseas-political-strategists-analysis
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    David Axelrod's appointment has been described by the Labour party as "seriously bad news for the Conservatives".

    http://news.sky.com/story/1244803/axelrod-role-is-seriously-bad-news-for-tories

    Nothing quite like the smell of hubris in the morning.....


    Meanwhile the Mail links Axelrod's hiring to Miliband's poor personal ratings:

    While Labour has maintained a lead in the polls, Mr Miliband’s personal ratings have remained poor.

    A YouGov survey two weeks ago showed 41 per cent of people think the Labour leader is ‘weird’ or ‘very weird’.

    The survey for BuzzFeed, which looked at the public’s perception of the leaders’ personalities, also found 36 per cent of the population believe Mr Miliband would have been bullied at school.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2607538/Ed-Miliband-calls-Barack-Obamas-election-guru-David-Axelrod-lead-campaign-2015.html#ixzz2zD0J5Jgw
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    George Eaton is happy:

    Many in Labour were disgruntled when the Tories recruited Barack Obama's former adviser Jim Messina as a campaign consultant last summer - but Ed Miliband has just unambiguously trumped that appointment. In a political coup, the party has secured the services of the US president's former strategist David Axelrod, the man who masterminded his two election victories, as a senior strategic adviser.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/labour-hires-david-axelrod-senior-strategic-adviser
  • woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Lord Rennard is an election-winning strategist. Is there are any chance of him being employed by a political party somewhere far away?

    What about our other E-W-S's? After all, British football managers have found success "abroad". E.g. Roy Hodgson.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Wonder if this is a message Axelrod will enjoy hearing:

    "So after (Republicans) drove the car into the ditch, made it as difficult as possible for us to pull it back, now they want the keys back," Obama said. "You can't drive! We don't want to have to go back into the ditch! We just got the car out!"

    http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2011868494_apuspoliticalinsider.html
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Lord Rennard is an election-winning strategist. Is there are any chance of him being employed by a political party somewhere far away?

    May be tough, given Britain is the most sexist country, according to the UN.....

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    The Daily Mail says that the Rutland earthquake was "3.2 out of 10" on the Richter scale. What's all this "out of 10" rubbish? Are they really that stupid?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2607005/I-thought-house-falling-Minor-earthquake-hits-Midlands-shaking-homes-knocking-objects-shelves.html
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JakeBenRichards: Text from political strategist friend. 'British jobs for British strategists'
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov: 33/35/11/15

    2010 LD split: LAB 27, LD 41
    DKs reduced and seem to have returned to LD

    2010 Cons: UKIP 18

    LAB low in Scotland

    Regional splits for HYFUD

    London: 34/41/9/12
    Rest of South: 40/28/13/17
    Midlands/Wales: 34/35/10/10. PC 2
    North: 28/42/8/10
    Scotland: 19/29/16/2 SNP:30
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @alstewitn: Mr Axelrod refers to the correct Mr. Miliband in the first tweet I've spotted from him since his 'signing'. Good start. #EdNotDavid
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457
    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He won the Nobel pace prize in 2009. Unless you're saying that the Nobel committee were stupid enough to give it to a third-rate snake-oil salesman who had had no impact on world peace?

    Oh, hang on...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GeneralBoles: Good luck Axe #Newsnight http://t.co/Qhb0nt3XoR
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    JohnLoony said:

    The Daily Mail says that the Rutland earthquake was "3.2 out of 10" on the Richter scale. What's all this "out of 10" rubbish? Are they really that stupid?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2607005/I-thought-house-falling-Minor-earthquake-hits-Midlands-shaking-homes-knocking-objects-shelves.html

    Yes, they are.
  • JamesMoJamesMo Posts: 35
    It's curious that there's no mention of Scotland at all in the article. Unless Ed morphs into a young version of Tony Blair it won't matter what strategic advice he gets re GE2015 if Yes wins in September.
    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    Both of his books were published before then. He was a pretty big political star from his speech at the 2004 Democrat convention.

    Lord Rennard is an election-winning strategist. Is there are any chance of him being employed by a political party somewhere far away?

    What about our other E-W-S's? After all, British football managers have found success "abroad". E.g. Roy Hodgson.

    John McTernan helped Ms Gillard get re-elected, although that didn't work out too well in the end.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Do you think they have sorted out his visa correctly?

    As an aside, any Tory who panics at this news is a fool. I'm sure Axelrod is fine, but what you need is the message and the leader. Labour should fix those first rather than relying on political tactics to grind out a Arsenal style victory.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    edited April 2014
    Obviously it's great News for Labour to have such an accomplished guy on board and to renew links with the US Democrats. Would be churlish for anyone to say otherwise.

    Will see how it works. Would be funny if they tried an Obama makeover on Ed. I can see the posters now and wonder who will put one of Ed's speeches to music. Can't see the Daily Mail serialising Ed's version of "Dreams from my father".



  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

  • It may of course be that he's been hired to offer ideas to prevent the Labour Party losing its male WWC vote entirely (it's already lost most of it, of course). Too little, too late.

    Perhaps someone can explain to me why he doesn't need a visa, or if he does, why it's in the national interest to give him one. Another opportunity for Sean Thomas to save Britain, methinks...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    He also actually won. He didn't have to rely on hanging chads or Liberal Democrats to get in. Not sure which is worse.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    Labour supporters on here were also delighted that Labour had hired Arni, and we had long and interesting discussions on how the American lessons would transfer to the UK.

    How did Arni work out for Labour?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    Labour supporters on here were also delighted that Labour had hired Arni, and we had long and interesting discussions on how the American lessons would transfer to the UK.

    How did Arni work out for Labour?

    I have absolutely no idea, probably because i don't know who he/she is.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    This looks like a cut and paste of a Labour comment after the Tories nabbed Messina!

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    Labour supporters on here were also delighted that Labour had hired Arni, and we had long and interesting discussions on how the American lessons would transfer to the UK.

    How did Arni work out for Labour?

    I have absolutely no idea, probably because i don't know who he/she is.
    Okay, it's Arnie, not Arni. But just to refresh your strange lapse in memory:

    "Arnie Graf: The man Ed Miliband asked to rebuild Labour"
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/21/arnie-graf-labour-party-miliband

    "Douglas Alexander: Labour hasn’t fired Arnie Graf as election guru"
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/douglas-alexander-labour-hasnt-fired-arnie-graf-as-election-guru/

    "Has Labour ditched Arnie Graf, the Obama guru who was supposed to win them the election?"
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100265477/has-labour-ditched-arnie-graf-the-obama-guru-who-was-supposed-to-win-them-the-election/

    He was the last highly-priced Obama adviser that Labour got in, only for him to vanish without trace. Does anyone really believe that this new guy will be able to negotiate Labour's factions any better than Arnie?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    Labour supporters on here were also delighted that Labour had hired Arni, and we had long and interesting discussions on how the American lessons would transfer to the UK.

    How did Arni work out for Labour?

    I have absolutely no idea, probably because i don't know who he/she is.
    Okay, it's Arnie, not Arni. But just to refresh your strange lapse in memory:

    "Arnie Graf: The man Ed Miliband asked to rebuild Labour"
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/21/arnie-graf-labour-party-miliband

    "Douglas Alexander: Labour hasn’t fired Arnie Graf as election guru"
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/douglas-alexander-labour-hasnt-fired-arnie-graf-as-election-guru/

    "Has Labour ditched Arnie Graf, the Obama guru who was supposed to win them the election?"
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100265477/has-labour-ditched-arnie-graf-the-obama-guru-who-was-supposed-to-win-them-the-election/

    He was the last highly-priced Obama adviser that Labour got in, only for him to vanish without trace. Does anyone really believe that this new guy will be able to negotiate Labour's factions any better than Arnie?

    My initial point - which seems to have escaped you - is that like Messina he will make little or no difference. People get very exercised about these appointments, but they don't ever seem to have any significant effect.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    Do you think our Tory friends are trying just a bit too hard today?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    Perhaps the Tories should try hiring Axel F and Harold Faltermeyer in response.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Jonathan said:

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    Do you think our Tory friends are trying just a bit too hard today?

    It does seem a little strange to say that someone who got more votes than any previous Democrat candidate and a higher vote percentage than any for decades ran a lacklustre campaign.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Would it be a bit too cynical to suggest that Axelrod is only here because he has burnt his bridges with the Clinton camp - but if another Democratic challenger for 2016 emerged, he would be back over the Pond in a heartbeat?

    Ed Who?
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Alexrod's last election trip to Europe was in Italy to work for Mario Monte.
    Monte ended up 4th beaten in the 3rd spot by a party lead by a real life comedian.

    Labour aiming high again.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    Jonathan said:

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    Do you think our Tory friends are trying just a bit too hard today?

    It does seem a little strange to say that someone who got more votes than any previous Democrat candidate and a higher vote percentage than any for decades ran a lacklustre campaign.

    Quite. The idea that the Obama campaign was lacklustre is absurd. If anything it had too much lustre.






  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    Labour supporters on here were also delighted that Labour had hired Arni, and we had long and interesting discussions on how the American lessons would transfer to the UK.

    How did Arni work out for Labour?

    I have absolutely no idea, probably because i don't know who he/she is.
    Okay, it's Arnie, not Arni. But just to refresh your strange lapse in memory:

    "Arnie Graf: The man Ed Miliband asked to rebuild Labour"
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/21/arnie-graf-labour-party-miliband

    "Douglas Alexander: Labour hasn’t fired Arnie Graf as election guru"
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/douglas-alexander-labour-hasnt-fired-arnie-graf-as-election-guru/

    "Has Labour ditched Arnie Graf, the Obama guru who was supposed to win them the election?"
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100265477/has-labour-ditched-arnie-graf-the-obama-guru-who-was-supposed-to-win-them-the-election/

    He was the last highly-priced Obama adviser that Labour got in, only for him to vanish without trace. Does anyone really believe that this new guy will be able to negotiate Labour's factions any better than Arnie?

    like Messina he will make little or no difference. People get very exercised about these appointments, but they don't ever seem to have any significant effect
    I agree, but it is our Labour friends who seem to be getting carried away:


    David Axelrod's appointment has been described by the Labour party as "seriously bad news for the Conservatives"

    George Eaton, New Statesman:

    Many in Labour were disgruntled when the Tories recruited Barack Obama's former adviser Jim Messina as a campaign consultant last summer - but Ed Miliband has just unambiguously trumped that appointment. In a political coup, the party has secured the services of the US president's former strategist David Axelrod, the man who masterminded his two election victories, as a senior strategic adviser.

    Clutching at straws?


  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited April 2014
    Financier said:

    YouGov: 33/35/11/15

    2010 LD split: LAB 27, LD 41
    DKs reduced and seem to have returned to LD

    If that holds true the debates may morph from a Clegg-disaster to a Clegg-knew-what-he-was-doing.

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    As well as paid for TV ads Obama also had the Vote for Change concerts, with the likes of Springsteen, REM, Jackson Browne and John Legend all performing.

    I don't think Billy Bragg will cut it somehow.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited April 2014

    Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    This looks like a cut and paste of a Labour comment after the Tories nabbed Messina!

    Absolutely not - just from observations over the years and track records.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and wasn't this chap Axelrod the American "guru" who helped the former Italian PM bomb to just 10% of the vote?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    Labour supporters on here were also delighted that Labour had hired Arni, and we had long and interesting discussions on how the American lessons would transfer to the UK.

    How did Arni work out for Labour?

    I have absolutely no idea, probably because i don't know who he/she is.
    Okay, it's Arnie, not Arni. But just to refresh your strange lapse in memory:

    "Arnie Graf: The man Ed Miliband asked to rebuild Labour"
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/21/arnie-graf-labour-party-miliband

    "Douglas Alexander: Labour hasn’t fired Arnie Graf as election guru"
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/douglas-alexander-labour-hasnt-fired-arnie-graf-as-election-guru/

    "Has Labour ditched Arnie Graf, the Obama guru who was supposed to win them the election?"
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100265477/has-labour-ditched-arnie-graf-the-obama-guru-who-was-supposed-to-win-them-the-election/

    He was the last highly-priced Obama adviser that Labour got in, only for him to vanish without trace. Does anyone really believe that this new guy will be able to negotiate Labour's factions any better than Arnie?

    My initial point - which seems to have escaped you - is that like Messina he will make little or no difference. People get very exercised about these appointments, but they don't ever seem to have any significant effect.
    Your initial point didn't escape me.

    We can't tell if these imports make any difference, because it's not really been tried yet. Personally, I'd say that the differences between US presidential politics and UK party politics are so large that any lessons are nebulous at best. But they are intelligent guys, and perhaps they can alter their techniques and advice to fit our system.

    But at least Messina's still apparently in place. They certainly won't have any effect if, like Arnie, they fall victim to tribal Labour infighting.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Whether this Axelrod is any good is yet to be seen, I knew Lynton Crosby was good because of the way tim regul;arly attacked him.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    Whether this Axelrod is any good is yet to be seen, I knew Lynton Crosby was good because of the way tim regul;arly attacked him.

    Seems our Tory friends think Axelrod is good.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Whether this Axelrod is any good is yet to be seen, I knew Lynton Crosby was good because of the way tim regul;arly attacked him.

    Seems our Tory friends think Axelrod is good.

    How do you draw that conclusion?

    I think most of them vaguely know the name and reputation, but have no idea of whether he will be good or not. And are saying as much.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Whether this Axelrod is any good is yet to be seen, I knew Lynton Crosby was good because of the way tim regul;arly attacked him.

    Given the improving economy, EdM's patent weaknesses and Labour's general lack of any meaningful alternative narrative to government policy the Tories *should* win a handy overall majority next year. Crosby should only be judged against that. To the best of my knowledge, which is not that great on this admittedly, he has never run a successful FPTP election campaign.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    The most likely scenario is that all this money will be spent on advisers to secure pretty much the same result as last time, with Labour winning a few more seats, which they would have won anyway.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    8.5% margin - Clinton (1996)
    7.2% margin - Obama (2008)
    5.5% margin - Clinton (1992)
    3.9% margin - Obama (2012)
    2.1% margin - Carter (1976)

    It's not how many votes you receive, it what the difference is between the competing parties, and where they're cast that counts. Obama won lots more votes than Roosevelt in 1936 or Johnson in 1964; so what? He's had more cast against him than any candidate in history too.

    There's a mythology building up about how Obama swept all before him; he didn't. Both wins were just short of the median in post-war elections in ECV terms, which is the only one that matters.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I wonder how much the message will inform policy and how much policy will inform the message. That's the question that has to be resolved to make this appointment successful.

    Off topic, for those following my analyses of the betting markets my latest blogpost will have to wait till this afternoon, because the only internet access I have till then is a mobile (for some reason my Budapest internet is down), and I need to be able to manipulate tables. Apologies for the delay.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited April 2014
    Jonathan said:

    Whether this Axelrod is any good is yet to be seen, I knew Lynton Crosby was good because of the way tim regul;arly attacked him.

    Seems our Tory friends think Axelrod is good.


    It seems you are worried . Noone has passed any comment about how good or bad he will be. UK elections are very different animals to those in the States.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    It depends.

    If they are based here, the good ones quickly pick up the nuances and bring fresh ideas to the party.

    Those who fly in for a couple of days to dispense their wisdom are frequently counter productive and can face strong internal resistance.

    Axelrod will not be based here, but will be flying in for a couple of days at a time.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    The most likely scenario is that all this money will be spent on advisers to secure pretty much the same result as last time, with Labour winning a few more seats, which they would have won anyway.

    Possibly. On one hand, these advisers are a 'man' thing: "look, our advisers are better than yours!" / "we can afford better advisers than you!".

    They also inject a little of the Obama 'magic' and credibility into the campaigns. Not that that, in itself, would gather any extra votes.

    Finally there is an important point: the world is changing. The last couple of US presidential elections have seen a much more effective use of technology than is currently used in Britain. They might be able to advise on the best use of social media and, most importantly, have good contacts in those areas.

    So they *may* be able to make a marked difference on the last point. But it relies on the advisers' advice being welcomed and used effectively.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    The Tories were delighted to have got Messina. I remember much crowing on here and general Labour teeth gnashing. I suspect this appointment will be equally as "game-changing".

    It will need to be, SO.

    This is what he has to work with.

    http://bit.ly/1eGpa16

    Well weird.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good morning, everyone.

    Just listening to the end of P2. Sounds like tyre degradation could be a factor, but the Ferrari seems to be perhaps a little faster.

    Something else to consider, on-topic, is that an optimistic "Yes we can" style campaign will have a hard time against public apathy and general contempt for the political class. Plus, Miliband is not a British Obama, even if he thinks he's going to be the first Jewish Prime Minister.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    It depends.

    If they are based here, the good ones quickly pick up the nuances and bring fresh ideas to the party.

    Those who fly in for a couple of days to dispense their wisdom are frequently counter productive and can face strong internal resistance.

    Axelrod will not be based here, but will be flying in for a couple of days at a time.

    Experience elsewhere suggests that when "experts" or "consultants" are brought in a for a few days at a time they make no difference at best and nasty boo-boos at worst.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    I think our politicians are keen to try something because it is a long time since we had an election campaign by either party that made material difference to the result. Arguably 1992 was the last time. Politicians spend a lot of money and achieve little. If an outsider has ideas to increase the efficiency of the spend it is worth a go.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Just going down the BBC livefeed, and came across this:
    "CRASH!
    Pastor Maldonado has put his Lotus into the wall on his way down the road heading into the pitlane. Unbelievable. "I crashed," he says over team radio. "Oh, OK" is the response, before he gets out and makes the short walk to the Lotus garage."

    I wonder if the £40m or so Maldonado took to Lotus will be enough to cover the damage he causes.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Have to confess I had never heard of either Axelrod or Messina. At the end of the day it will be the hard work of thousands of volunteers across the parties who will have the greatest influence in the 150 marginal-ish seats which will determine the election. Far fewer people are influenced by newspapers and TV media because they don't read or watch them.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/

    Staying very close to the L&N forecast.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    It depends.

    If they are based here, the good ones quickly pick up the nuances and bring fresh ideas to the party.

    Those who fly in for a couple of days to dispense their wisdom are frequently counter productive and can face strong internal resistance.

    Axelrod will not be based here, but will be flying in for a couple of days at a time.

    Experience elsewhere suggests that when "experts" or "consultants" are brought in a for a few days at a time they make no difference at best and nasty boo-boos at worst.
    The three great fibs:

    * The cheque is in the post
    * Of course I'll still respect you in the morning
    * I'm from head office and I'm here to help.....

  • RodCrosby said:

    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/

    Staying very close to the L&N forecast.
    Sorry to be a bit dumb at this time in the morning but what's the L&N forecast?
  • So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/

    Staying very close to the L&N forecast.
    Sorry to be a bit dumb at this time in the morning but what's the L&N forecast?
    Lebo & Norpoth, whose model of PM approval has got the outcome of every election back to 1945 correct.
  • RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/

    Staying very close to the L&N forecast.
    Sorry to be a bit dumb at this time in the morning but what's the L&N forecast?
    Lebo & Norpoth, whose model of PM approval has got the outcome of every election back to 1945 correct.
    Thanks for that.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    RobD said:

    woody662 said:

    Axelrod has previously worked with popular world statesman Barack Obama. Has he any record of applying dusters to excrement though?

    Obama wasn't a world statesman in 2008!
    He didn't win by all that much either, which given the toxicity of the outgoing Bush administration and the indifferent quality of the McCain campaign suggests that Obama's campaign team didn't do a great deal to enhance his chances.

    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    8.5% margin - Clinton (1996)
    7.2% margin - Obama (2008)
    5.5% margin - Clinton (1992)
    3.9% margin - Obama (2012)
    2.1% margin - Carter (1976)

    It's not how many votes you receive, it what the difference is between the competing parties, and where they're cast that counts. Obama won lots more votes than Roosevelt in 1936 or Johnson in 1964; so what? He's had more cast against him than any candidate in history too.

    There's a mythology building up about how Obama swept all before him; he didn't. Both wins were just short of the median in post-war elections in ECV terms, which is the only one that matters.
    Sorry David, but this is a very poor reading of American politics. Presidential elections have fundamentally changed since the immediate post-war period. The civil rights movement began a process that transformed the parties from being broad coalitions with huge ideological variety to a right wing party and a left wing party. It actually took thirty years for the process to fully play out, but since 2000 the electoral map has barely changed, and it won't be very different next time either, regardless of the candidates.
  • So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    If you'd lost half your MPs and over half your popular vote would you re-join a coalition? That was the whole point of my post. A "confidence and supply" arrangement by its nature is ephemeral.

    As to the DUP, I presume Cameron has let it be known that he'd be happy to return to FPTP for the Ulster Assembly elections.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2014

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Talking of uses of modern media more than 10,000 pupils have now joined a twitter account called SQA News Not to complain about the disaster that is the Curriculum for Excellence and the absurd new exams. Teachers are apparently routinely completing course work for pupils. Despite considerable efforts to shut down criticism this is now bleeding into the MSM.

    Sample posts:

    "Let's be honest. The new curriculum is a joke. We're just bored of making you succeed in life so we now like to get pleasure outof you failing."

    "We are now allowing alcohol and controlled substances into our exams."

    and

    "UPDATE Everyone here at the SQA hopes you are more stressed than you have ever been and you feel like your failing Exams in 25 days!!"

    Just as well these 16 year olds have not got a vote eh?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Whether this Axelrod is any good is yet to be seen, I knew Lynton Crosby was good because of the way tim regul;arly attacked him.

    Given the improving economy, EdM's patent weaknesses and Labour's general lack of any meaningful alternative narrative to government policy the Tories *should* win a handy overall majority next year. Crosby should only be judged against that. To the best of my knowledge, which is not that great on this admittedly, he has never run a successful FPTP election campaign.

    You keep saying this.

    But that assumes that voters make judgement on a rational basis.

    If the rapid, en masse, and seemingly firm (to date) "anti-Tory" switch by LD10 voters then you can only draw 3 conclusions:

    (1) Anti-Tory tribal voting (I would argue "non rational" in the sense that it is emotional rather than fact bases) occurs - and therefore Labour's lack of alternative narrative doesn't matter
    (2) Ed is either regarded positively by him, or his "patent weakness" isn't important
    (3) Economics is not a primary motivating factor for their vote

    It's probably a combination of these - but in any event there's no basis for the claim that the Tories "should" win. It's not enough to do a good job - you need to convince truculent voters to support you as well.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Can't comment on Axelrod but can re Arnie Graf - he was brought in for a specific purpose, to advise PPCs, especially new ones with little profile, on how to engage with local opinion-leaders to get themselves on the map. He was well-liked and it was sensible advice as far as it went. Some PPCs did it, others didn't, but the time for that was more the last 12 months rather than the next 12.

    Last thread: thanks to the late-night commentators who advised on the German "medical envelopes" after I went to bed. I've put down compresses with a query and noted William Glenn's suggestion for the proof-reader to consider. (A new poster I think - welcome!)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Incidentally, the Ukraine deal looks reasonable (and if it holds will be a lot better than the wild sabre-rattling that Socrates was urging on us) - let's hope it works out. The devil will be in the regionalisation detail.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/

    Staying very close to the L&N forecast.
    Sorry to be a bit dumb at this time in the morning but what's the L&N forecast?
    Lebo & Norpoth, whose model of PM approval has got the outcome of every election back to 1945 correct.
    Has it got it right in advance or is the model one that 'would have' correctly predicted the outcome but was developed afterwards. Also, either way, did it predict / would it have predicted the outcome only on the election day or was the model reasonably good a year to 18 months out (excluding major changes such as the Falklands, Thatcher/Major handover etc)?

    I'm trying not to be overly sceptical: PM ratings should be a good guide but presumably only when taken in the context of other leader ratings, the relative figures being key. Does that still work with the Lib Dems in govt and the rise of UKIP? The numbers sound right *if* there's a major swing back from UKIP to Con (which presumably the model suggests there will be). It's a realistic scenario but only one. Personally, I think it's a bit kind to the Blue team.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    Avery , you are dreaming , start from the view that YES is the answer, if not we will get nothing but grief from the toerags at Westminster. I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Can't comment on Axelrod but can re Arnie Graf - he was brought in for a specific purpose, to advise PPCs, especially new ones with little profile, on how to engage with local opinion-leaders to get themselves on the map. He was well-liked and it was sensible advice as far as it went. Some PPCs did it, others didn't, but the time for that was more the last 12 months rather than the next 12.

    Last thread: thanks to the late-night commentators who advised on the German "medical envelopes" after I went to bed. I've put down compresses with a query and noted William Glenn's suggestion for the proof-reader to consider. (A new poster I think - welcome!)

    Nick

    I was going to suggest the correct translation might be "colostomy bag".

    Otherwise this link might yield some visual clues: http://german.alibaba.com/goods/medical-envelopes.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    F1: hmm. Going to have a little ponder, but I might have a potential tip in mind for qualifying. Wasn't planning on making one. Going to have to think about it.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Incidentally, the Ukraine deal looks reasonable (and if it holds will be a lot better than the wild sabre-rattling that Socrates was urging on us) - let's hope it works out. The devil will be in the regionalisation detail.

    The "regionalisation" deal, from the limited details that have emerged so far, seems to entail the right of Russia to have powerful puppets as governors of Eastern and Southern Ukraine, so they have a veto over Ukraine's future, and can prevent them from acting as a sovereign nation. It also appears that that the West has conceded that Russia will be allowed to get away with the annexation of foreign territory, in a move that sends a clear message to other major undemocratic powers that we won't stand up for smaller countries. In addition, the militants in Eastern Ukraine are refusing to stand down, even though they are controlled by the Kremlin, suggesting that the end game hasn't even started yet.

    You can use words like "sabre-rattling" to stir up emotion all you want, but all I have ever argued is that we should have a clear penalties for the most basic breach of international law - invading and annexing land from your neighbours. It amazes me how you can think it is reasonable to invade Iraq based on far more ambiguous legal grounds, but think even a tough economic response to a worse breach is something to be sanguine over.
  • Financier said:

    Quite often USA consumer marketing people are not very successful when transferring their skill sets to Europe and the UK. They tend to treat Europe and even the UK as a collection of federal states and our various states of devolution could confound him.

    It depends.

    If they are based here, the good ones quickly pick up the nuances and bring fresh ideas to the party.

    Those who fly in for a couple of days to dispense their wisdom are frequently counter productive and can face strong internal resistance.

    Axelrod will not be based here, but will be flying in for a couple of days at a time.

    Experience elsewhere suggests that when "experts" or "consultants" are brought in a for a few days at a time they make no difference at best and nasty boo-boos at worst.
    The three great fibs:

    * The cheque is in the post
    * Of course I'll still respect you in the morning
    * I'm from head office and I'm here to help.....

    And ... "My drink must have been spiked"
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    Avery , you are dreaming , start from the view that YES is the answer, if not we will get nothing but grief from the toerags at Westminster. I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Malc

    I have made a diary note to suggest this again once you have returned from your holiday on 26th September.

    You may find the idea more appealing after returning home refreshed and reinvigorated.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Incidentally, the Ukraine deal looks reasonable (and if it holds will be a lot better than the wild sabre-rattling that Socrates was urging on us) - let's hope it works out. The devil will be in the regionalisation detail.

    I was pleasantly surprised when listening to the press conferences driving home last night. It seems that Russia has blinked in a really big way which is odd when they held so many of the cards. Perhaps they gamed an all out civil war on their doorstep and didn't like the consequences or perhaps the Russian economy is just more vulnerable than some thought.

    Either way if this can be implemented on the ground a lot of lives will have been saved. I was impressed by John Kerry once again. The swiftboat campaign was an utter disgrace, especially by a draft dodger, and I hope these Americans don't introduce anything like that into our politics.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Tell me you are going to canvas for "Yes"!

  • malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Tell me you are going to canvas for "Yes"!

    What other way is there to be insane, apart from mentally?

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited April 2014
    @NickPalmer

    Oh, and, for the record, it's very hard to believe Putin would have been so bold had he not seen the West buckle on Syrian intervention. So well done, the posturing of your leader for domestic political gain has seen the emasculation of a sovereign country that wanted to be a Western pro-European democracy.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Socrates said:



    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    8.5% margin - Clinton (1996)
    7.2% margin - Obama (2008)
    5.5% margin - Clinton (1992)
    3.9% margin - Obama (2012)
    2.1% margin - Carter (1976)

    It's not how many votes you receive, it what the difference is between the competing parties, and where they're cast that counts. Obama won lots more votes than Roosevelt in 1936 or Johnson in 1964; so what? He's had more cast against him than any candidate in history too.

    There's a mythology building up about how Obama swept all before him; he didn't. Both wins were just short of the median in post-war elections in ECV terms, which is the only one that matters.
    Sorry David, but this is a very poor reading of American politics. Presidential elections have fundamentally changed since the immediate post-war period. The civil rights movement began a process that transformed the parties from being broad coalitions with huge ideological variety to a right wing party and a left wing party. It actually took thirty years for the process to fully play out, but since 2000 the electoral map has barely changed, and it won't be very different next time either, regardless of the candidates.
    I don't agree with that. The reason the presidential electoral map's not changed much is that the candidates on offer were either divisive or uninspiring (Obama was inspiring to many in 2008 but he was also divisive, for example). I fully agree that Civil Rights marked a watershed and has seen the South transform from Blue to Red but the right candidate can still surmount that; it's just that not since Reagan has any candidate been able to reach out so far beyond their own base.

    Civil Rights was also only a third of the way into the post-war era; the majority of elections have been since then. Now, admittedly, Obama did do well as a Democrat in that context but still not as well as Clinton (and Perot's interventions weren't particularly critical there).

    I go back to my original point: in 2008, the landscape was very favourable to the Democrats given Bush and the economy. McCain was no charismatic rival. Yet Obama only did OK. OK was good enough but I just don't think that his campaign should be lauded as an exceptional example when the figures - to me - don't back that up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    Avery , you are dreaming , start from the view that YES is the answer, if not we will get nothing but grief from the toerags at Westminster. I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Malc

    I have made a diary note to suggest this again once you have returned from your holiday on 26th September.

    You may find the idea more appealing after returning home refreshed and reinvigorated.
    Avery, I will either be extremely happy and refreshed or planning my emigration.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    Can't comment on Axelrod but can re Arnie Graf - he was brought in for a specific purpose, to advise PPCs, especially new ones with little profile, on how to engage with local opinion-leaders to get themselves on the map. He was well-liked and it was sensible advice as far as it went. Some PPCs did it, others didn't, but the time for that was more the last 12 months rather than the next 12.

    (snip)

    Really? For one thing, not all PPC's have been selected yet, or have only been selected for a short period. Surely if he was advising them, he'd stay on for longer?

    Secondly, that sort of thing wasn't mentioned when he was hired. The following article does rather suggest a bigger role:
    "Arnie Graf will conduct a “year zero” review of Labour’s organisation and campaign structures."
    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/01/graf-obama-labour-miliband

    Which seems rather different from your spin. His role may have changed since then, but the mood music at the time was certainly not as narrowly focussed as you suggest above.

    Yet this LabourList article from less than two weeks ago seems to suggest that Graf'll be coming back. It'll be interesting to see if that's still true, and if it is, how well the two gurus will work together, and within Labour's tribal backstabbing.
    http://labourlist.org/2014/04/arnie-graf-coming-back-programme-of-work-ready-for-his-return/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Tell me you are going to canvas for "Yes"!

    Just vote YES
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Stephen Fisher has updated his forecast http://users.ox.ac.uk/~nuff0084/ge15forecast/

    Staying very close to the L&N forecast.
    Sorry to be a bit dumb at this time in the morning but what's the L&N forecast?
    Lebo & Norpoth, whose model of PM approval has got the outcome of every election back to 1945 correct.
    Has it got it right in advance or is the model one that 'would have' correctly predicted the outcome but was developed afterwards. Also, either way, did it predict / would it have predicted the outcome only on the election day or was the model reasonably good a year to 18 months out (excluding major changes such as the Falklands, Thatcher/Major handover etc)?

    I'm trying not to be overly sceptical: PM ratings should be a good guide but presumably only when taken in the context of other leader ratings, the relative figures being key. Does that still work with the Lib Dems in govt and the rise of UKIP? The numbers sound right *if* there's a major swing back from UKIP to Con (which presumably the model suggests there will be). It's a realistic scenario but only one. Personally, I think it's a bit kind to the Blue team.
    Well of course the model wasn't around in 1945, neither were its creators I suspect. They developed the model in 2004 (and have refined it slightly since). But using the accepted techniques of out-of-sample and one-step-ahead forecasting, it 'predicts' every election correctly.

    The final prediction is based on PM approval polls 2-3 months before the election date. So they have not analysed the month on month predictions from the model.

    I have done that. I see no reason not to.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Tell me you are going to canvas for "Yes"!

    Just vote YES
    Pity.....your diplomatic skills will be sadly wasted then.....

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    Incidentally, the Ukraine deal looks reasonable (and if it holds will be a lot better than the wild sabre-rattling that Socrates was urging on us) - let's hope it works out. The devil will be in the regionalisation detail.

    A "sabre-rattling" accusation from someone who voted for the Iraq War.

    Lol.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Incidentally, the Ukraine deal looks reasonable (and if it holds will be a lot better than the wild sabre-rattling that Socrates was urging on us) - let's hope it works out. The devil will be in the regionalisation detail.

    That would have been the consensus view of Munich, too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    edited April 2014

    Socrates said:



    He did better than any Democrat candidate for nearly 50 years.

    Really? ECVs:

    379 - Clinton (1996)
    370 - Clinton (1992)
    365 - Obama (2008)
    332 - Obama (2012)
    297 - Carter (1976).

    Now do the popular vote numbers.

    8.5% margin - Clinton (1996)
    7.2% margin - Obama (2008)
    5.5% margin - Clinton (1992)
    3.9% margin - Obama (2012)
    2.1% margin - Carter (1976)

    It's not how many votes you receive, it what the difference is between the competing parties, and where they're cast that counts. Obama won lots more votes than Roosevelt in 1936 or Johnson in 1964; so what? He's had more cast against him than any candidate in history too.

    There's a mythology building up about how Obama swept all before him; he didn't. Both wins were just short of the median in post-war elections in ECV terms, which is the only one that matters.
    David L said
    Obama's "exceptional" campaign was against Hilary. Given the advantages she had in profile, Bill, the Democratic establishment etc he should never have won that. And he was innovative in the ways that he did so, especially in using modern media and fund raising.

    The national campaigns were more conventional and so were the results.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2014
    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, the Ukraine deal looks reasonable (and if it holds will be a lot better than the wild sabre-rattling that Socrates was urging on us) - let's hope it works out. The devil will be in the regionalisation detail.

    The "regionalisation" deal, from the limited details that have emerged so far, seems to entail the right of Russia to have powerful puppets as governors of Eastern and Southern Ukraine, so they have a veto over Ukraine's future, and can prevent them from acting as a sovereign nation. It also appears that that the West has conceded that Russia will be allowed to get away with the annexation of foreign territory, in a move that sends a clear message to other major undemocratic powers that we won't stand up for smaller countries. In addition, the militants in Eastern Ukraine are refusing to stand down, even though they are controlled by the Kremlin, suggesting that the end game hasn't even started yet.

    You can use words like "sabre-rattling" to stir up emotion all you want, but all I have ever argued is that we should have a clear penalties for the most basic breach of international law - invading and annexing land from your neighbours. It amazes me how you can think it is reasonable to invade Iraq based on far more ambiguous legal grounds, but think even a tough economic response to a worse breach is something to be sanguine over.
    The only feasible outcome to the current crisis is to split the Ukraine, at least de facto if not de jure, into East and West nations.

    The Russian leaning oblasts (including the South) will trundle on looking East under the patronage of Russia.

    The West will become an EU subsidy junky.

    A race will then ensue, for the benefit of all Ukrainians, as to which side will prevail in an economic war. Russia will make the early running but eventually the free market, rule of law and democratic processes of the West will prevail.

    In twenty years we can look forward to the re-unification of The Ukraine as the walls come tumbling down. But that will only happen when Moscow is converted to the cause not Kiev.

    And in the interim there will be a deal not to advance NATO beyond its current borders. The minimal sanctions imposed on Russia to date will be abandoned in a fanfare of mutual self-congratulation once the deal is struck.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    So Fisher "predicts" Con 307 Lab 284 LD 30 - does anyone see such a Parliament lasting five years?

    If the LibDems either rejoin the Tories in coalition or offer support on a policy by policy basis, the Tories will be able to rely on DUP/UUP support as they have no love for Labour. The mood music at PMQs for months from the DUP is that Cameron can rely on their support.
    Post referendum defeat, Salmond will be looking to buy devo-max from anyone who'll offer.

    I see the SNP returning to their roots as tartan tories and signing up to a five year coalition with the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

    The reward for the Lib Dems will be get all the pinkoes offloaded from newly merged SCon and SNP party.

    There. Sorted.

    Even Stuart Dickson and malcolmg would not be minded to object. Pork though may find himself in a dilemma.

    I cannot believe that over 50% of the Scottish population are mentally insane and will vote NO.
    Tell me you are going to canvas for "Yes"!

    What other way is there to be insane, apart from mentally?

    True , there are various forms of course but as you say all involve a mental impairment
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322


    I don't agree with that. The reason the presidential electoral map's not changed much is that the candidates on offer were either divisive or uninspiring (Obama was inspiring to many in 2008 but he was also divisive, for example). I fully agree that Civil Rights marked a watershed and has seen the South transform from Blue to Red but the right candidate can still surmount that; it's just that not since Reagan has any candidate been able to reach out so far beyond their own base.

    Civil Rights was also only a third of the way into the post-war era; the majority of elections have been since then. Now, admittedly, Obama did do well as a Democrat in that context but still not as well as Clinton (and Perot's interventions weren't particularly critical there).

    I go back to my original point: in 2008, the landscape was very favourable to the Democrats given Bush and the economy. McCain was no charismatic rival. Yet Obama only did OK. OK was good enough but I just don't think that his campaign should be lauded as an exceptional example when the figures - to me - don't back that up.

    But it took thirty years for the realignment to unwind, due to a country being so large and towns and families having longstanding attachments to each party, in a manner similar to Ireland pre-2007. The charts of ideological division in Congress show it is still going on:

    http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/multimedia/interactives/2013/stats_images/Ch8House.png

    This is the first ever Congress where the most left wing Republican is to the right of the most right wing Democrat. If we ever get big changes to the presidential electoral map again, it won't be because of an inspiring candidate. It will be because one party puts up a complete radical.
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