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The row about postponing 31% of 2026 local council elections. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,919
edited 8:02AM in General
The row about postponing 31% of 2026 local council elections. – politicalbetting.com

There’s argument this row is political smokescreen, make fuss of postponements to obscure more important issues voters are upset about. Let’s explore what’s really going on.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901
    Maybe but two things can be true at the same time. Or false, come to that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,578
    Second rate democracy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,974
    Turns out the Gaza Health Ministry was right.

    Israel and Hamas finally agree on Gaza death toll

    Israeli Defence Forces reports on number of Palestinians killed for first time


    Israel has signalled is ready to acknowledge that 70,000 people have been killed in its war on Gaza.

    Officials from the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) reported the estimated death toll for the first time to multiple Israeli news outlets.

    The figure is almost identical to the 71,667 reported by the Gaza health ministry, which is run by Hamas.

    Throughout the war, the Israeli military and government has accused the health ministry of publishing “exaggerated” figures, cautioning the media and NGOs not to trust the data.

    Until now, Israel has refused to offer alternative figures.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/29/israel-and-hamas-finally-agree-on-gaza-death-toll/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901
    Gorton on Betfair's very thin market sees Labour drifting back out to 9/2.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,578
    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901

    Turns out the Gaza Health Ministry was right.

    Israel and Hamas finally agree on Gaza death toll

    Israeli Defence Forces reports on number of Palestinians killed for first time


    Israel has signalled is ready to acknowledge that 70,000 people have been killed in its war on Gaza.

    Officials from the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) reported the estimated death toll for the first time to multiple Israeli news outlets.

    The figure is almost identical to the 71,667 reported by the Gaza health ministry, which is run by Hamas.

    Throughout the war, the Israeli military and government has accused the health ministry of publishing “exaggerated” figures, cautioning the media and NGOs not to trust the data.

    Until now, Israel has refused to offer alternative figures.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/29/israel-and-hamas-finally-agree-on-gaza-death-toll/

    Believing the attackees (if that is a word) has just come back into fashion thanks to Iran.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467
    Of course district and county councillors elected in May in elections going ahead in councils moving to unitaries will be made redundant next year when the first unitary council elections will be held. That is unless they are elected for the new unitary councils.

    Meanwhile millions of taxpayer money will be spent on holding said elections. At a time when council reorganisation is supposed to be saving money and reducing the need for said councils to further cut services and raising council tax. Though it will be ensuring democracy for an extra year
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901
    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Ajax sales team phoning the Kremlin in 3, 2, 1...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467
    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,520
    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Oligarchs have been buying gold for rubles from the Russian state. The billions of rubles they have stashed are otherwise essentially worthless.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901
    Michael Gove on the Spectator Q&A podcast has some thoughts on why Labour's big majority makes it susceptible to rebellions, as discussed in previous threads (and since Francis Pym ended his political career by cautioning Mrs Thatcher against landslides four decades back).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJ0dX34nug

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,335
    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,974

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Oligarchs have been buying gold for rubles from the Russian state. The billions of rubles they have stashed are otherwise essentially worthless.
    In my day job my conversations with OFSI have increased exponentially in the last six months as more and more Russians are desperately trying to sell stuff.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901
    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,974
    edited 8:36AM

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    In the words of one of the greatest spy chiefs in history, 'always burn your bridges behind you. You never know who might be trying to follow.'
  • eekeek Posts: 32,424
    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,866
    Thanks @MoonRabbit - interesting piece on an over looked area, local government.

    A point I would add though is that as far as I know no one is being asked - directly - about these local government re-orgs.

    My area certainly is not having any kind of referendum, which is what I would expect. We are to lose our well functioning district council. No one I speak to is in favour of this.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,974

    Seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I'll be standing in May.

    As a purely paper candidate, same as the previous time I stood.

    Fingers crossed for a resounding defeat.

    Let me guess, you're standing for the Greens?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 924

    Michael Gove on the Spectator Q&A podcast has some thoughts on why Labour's big majority makes it susceptible to rebellions, as discussed in previous threads (and since Francis Pym ended his political career by cautioning Mrs Thatcher against landslides four decades back).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJ0dX34nug

    Can't watch the clip right now, but I do think Starmer's huge majority is a curse. For all I disagreed with it at the time, and opposed it for political reasons, in terms of Party management, Boris was right to withdraw the whip from Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke etc for rebelling on Brexit even though it, briefly, cost him his majority. Starmer should maybe have done the same on WFA.

    I also wonder if such a large majority on a pretty low vote share means that MPs feel more entitled to pull their own way rather than follow the party line (and indeed, feel less obliged to be loyal to the party leader in general).
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,655
    Thanks, @MoonRabbit, an interesting article.

    Good morning, everyone.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,505
    It seems to me that the local government election/funding problem illustrates a fairly diagnosable democracy problem along with a concept problem as well.

    Firstly in any notionally democratic hierarchy a general rule applies, arising out of human nature: the higher level of the democratic hierarchy will always want to maximise its power and minimise its responsibility.

    The conceptual problem in local democracy is that it is rational to want two incompatible things: local decision and accountability but also an absence of 'postcode lottery' about any local service we happen to want at any particular moment.

    In respect of Westminster v local government this is fairly obvious. But because total state managed expenditure is a vast proportion of all activity from building nuclear submarines to park benches and playground swings it goes right down to the level of the village primary school and beyond.

    Result: blame transference is one of the great creative industries of the democratic world. It is a social blight. Result: good well intentioned school governors (volunteers) and management etc spend long winter evenings exercising responsibility without power, while a thousand miles away well paid politicians exercise power without responsibility.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,246
    edited 8:43AM
    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    edited 8:53AM
    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,133

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Ajax sales team phoning the Kremlin in 3, 2, 1...
    I think, on the basis of no particular knowledge, that the govt. are waiting until after the Welsh elections to pull the pin. Then there will be a French/Italian style pivot to wheeled armour + MBTs.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,549
    HYUFD said:

    Of course district and county councillors elected in May in elections going ahead in councils moving to unitaries will be made redundant next year when the first unitary council elections will be held. That is unless they are elected for the new unitary councils.

    Meanwhile millions of taxpayer money will be spent on holding said elections. At a time when council reorganisation is supposed to be saving money and reducing the need for said councils to further cut services and raising council tax. Though it will be ensuring democracy for an extra year

    Democracy is priceless. At a time when it is under threat around the globally we need to stand up for first principles

    For everything else there’s Mastercard
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467
    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    Unless hung parliaments or NOC councils of course
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,403

    Seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I'll be standing in May.

    As a purely paper candidate, same as the previous time I stood.

    Fingers crossed for a resounding defeat.

    Rentool, we need a futile gesture at this stage.

    https://youtu.be/Y5YW4qKOAVM?si=hWbiYgzpST-CFSwb
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    Well Starmer did get relatively low tariffs from Trump. Though yes even Biden imposed tariffs on Chinese imports, just Trump increased them further and imposed them on everyone else too
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Seems to be #5 in this list. We've had #1 with the Afghanistan issue the other week. DAVRO is also very popular (suggested that this is usually deployed on the instruction of the White House)

    https://sosviolenceconjugale.ca/en/articles/8-tactics-of-psychological-violence-used-by-abusers-in-intimate-relationships
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    You still get some say on planning, social care, heritage, local transportation and culture. Plus lots of MPs and even the likes of May, Attlee, Corbyn and Major began as local councillors
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,436
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    edited 9:03AM

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    I disagree with your paragraph one, in the "well-run setup".

    They have to represent their nimbies and residents, and attempts at manipulation are inevitable. So it is always political at local level.

    The only non-political body by law is the Planning Inspectorate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,520
    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
    That is three Tory black holes....
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,426

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    Prediction: Trump won’t piss off when his term ends; if it ends.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,867

    Turns out the Gaza Health Ministry was right.

    Israel and Hamas finally agree on Gaza death toll

    Israeli Defence Forces reports on number of Palestinians killed for first time


    Israel has signalled is ready to acknowledge that 70,000 people have been killed in its war on Gaza.

    Officials from the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) reported the estimated death toll for the first time to multiple Israeli news outlets.

    The figure is almost identical to the 71,667 reported by the Gaza health ministry, which is run by Hamas.

    Throughout the war, the Israeli military and government has accused the health ministry of publishing “exaggerated” figures, cautioning the media and NGOs not to trust the data.

    Until now, Israel has refused to offer alternative figures.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/29/israel-and-hamas-finally-agree-on-gaza-death-toll/

    I remember the BBC being much criticised on here for quoting these figures (even with the qualifier that the organisation was Hamas controlled). I seem to even recall an article where they justified it, saying that estimates from the Health Ministry in others conflicts had been largely accepted as accurate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,291
    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the local government election/funding problem illustrates a fairly diagnosable democracy problem along with a concept problem as well.

    Firstly in any notionally democratic hierarchy a general rule applies, arising out of human nature: the higher level of the democratic hierarchy will always want to maximise its power and minimise its responsibility.

    The conceptual problem in local democracy is that it is rational to want two incompatible things: local decision and accountability but also an absence of 'postcode lottery' about any local service we happen to want at any particular moment.

    In respect of Westminster v local government this is fairly obvious. But because total state managed expenditure is a vast proportion of all activity from building nuclear submarines to park benches and playground swings it goes right down to the level of the village primary school and beyond.

    Result: blame transference is one of the great creative industries of the democratic world. It is a social blight. Result: good well intentioned school governors (volunteers) and management etc spend long winter evenings exercising responsibility without power, while a thousand miles away well paid politicians exercise power without responsibility.

    And if you look at countries where local government is functional, they have localised control of taxation.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    Arrests over that huge illegal waste dump.

    Clear up quotes were of the order of £10m.

    If I have it right, the maximum sentence for the waste dumping is 5 years, with a potential extra 14 years for assessed proceeds of crime, which can be reduced by paying it back.

    I'm reminded that prison really scares white collar criminals, and given that one is 73 and the other 54, a 10 or 12 year sentence should encourager les autres.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy7m3ezr80yo
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,887

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    I don't think it quite so simple as that.

    Local government autonomy has arguably been in decline since WWII, a process considerably accelerated by the Thatcher governments. While it's true that most spending LA responsibilities (education and social care) are mandated by and largely funded by central government, there is still space for both good and bad local government to make a significant change to outcomes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901
    edited 9:05AM
    Unpopular said:

    Michael Gove on the Spectator Q&A podcast has some thoughts on why Labour's big majority makes it susceptible to rebellions, as discussed in previous threads (and since Francis Pym ended his political career by cautioning Mrs Thatcher against landslides four decades back).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJ0dX34nug

    Can't watch the clip right now, but I do think Starmer's huge majority is a curse. For all I disagreed with it at the time, and opposed it for political reasons, in terms of Party management, Boris was right to withdraw the whip from Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke etc for rebelling on Brexit even though it, briefly, cost him his majority. Starmer should maybe have done the same on WFA.

    I also wonder if such a large majority on a pretty low vote share means that MPs feel more entitled to pull their own way rather than follow the party line (and indeed, feel less obliged to be loyal to the party leader in general).
    Gove talks about landslides as a double whammy. The whips don't have enough goodies to dangle and a lot of MPs have threadbare majorities they need to keep onside.

    But since you mention Boris, Starmer is falling into the same trap for different reasons – sending out ministers on the morning media rounds to defend government positions that will be abandoned before lunchtime.

    ETA and since you mention WFA, the government has just extended the entirely different warm home discount:-

    Energy bill support extended for millions of families
    Warm Home Discount has been extended so millions of families will receive the £150 energy bill discount for the rest of the decade.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/energy-bill-support-extended-for-millions-of-families
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,167
    Good morning.

    Interesting semi-final going on at Australian Open.

    "Alcaraz 6-4 7-6 (7-5) 6-7 (3-7) 6-7 (4-7) 4-5 Zverev*"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/live/c3dnjg02mn8t
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,291

    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
    That is three Tory black holes....
    To be fair to Gordon, the Tories had "bought too much cheap gold". According to him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    Prediction: Trump won’t piss off when his term ends; if it ends.
    The way things are going, he'll be in one of the new assylums he himself is opening, by then
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,309

    Seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I'll be standing in May.

    As a purely paper candidate, same as the previous time I stood.

    Fingers crossed for a resounding defeat.

    Rentool, we need a futile gesture at this stage.

    https://youtu.be/Y5YW4qKOAVM?si=hWbiYgzpST-CFSwb
    With all-out elections we need 90 candidates, and we don't have 90 people interested in becoming a councilor.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,332
    MattW said:

    Arrests over that huge illegal waste dump.

    Clear up quotes were of the order of £10m.

    If I have it right, the maximum sentence for the waste dumping is 5 years, with a potential extra 14 years for assessed proceeds of crime, which can be reduced by paying it back.

    I'm reminded that prison really scares white collar criminals, and given that one is 73 and the other 54, a 10 or 12 year sentence should encourager les autres.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy7m3ezr80yo


    12 years would be longer than the average rapist.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175
    edited 9:12AM
    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the local government election/funding problem illustrates a fairly diagnosable democracy problem along with a concept problem as well.

    Firstly in any notionally democratic hierarchy a general rule applies, arising out of human nature: the higher level of the democratic hierarchy will always want to maximise its power and minimise its responsibility.

    The conceptual problem in local democracy is that it is rational to want two incompatible things: local decision and accountability but also an absence of 'postcode lottery' about any local service we happen to want at any particular moment.

    In respect of Westminster v local government this is fairly obvious. But because total state managed expenditure is a vast proportion of all activity from building nuclear submarines to park benches and playground swings it goes right down to the level of the village primary school and beyond.

    Result: blame transference is one of the great creative industries of the democratic world. It is a social blight. Result: good well intentioned school governors (volunteers) and management etc spend long winter evenings exercising responsibility without power, while a thousand miles away well paid politicians exercise power without responsibility.

    Underneath is the problem that local government has no constitutional basis and hence no security.

    In most other democracies, the fundamentals of its local governance are set out in its constitution. For sure, constitutions can change - but that's normally an extended process with a series of hurdles to jump, and not something governments do lightly.

    The absence of any formalised constitution in the UK means that local government exists and operates entirely at the whim of national government - it can be re-organised, abolished, have its election dates changed, have its funding cut or capped, all according to the political decisions of a majority party at Westminster, elected on 35-40% of the vote, and has next to no reliable funding sources of its own (other than, perhaps, parking charges - which in itself explains a lot).
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,269

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,269
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    Actually, very many small applicants appeal to Bristol and win on appeal, much to the frustration of local councillors. Of course, sometimes these are proposals where the basis for rejection was more political than objective, and what planning authorities are able to refuse is heavily circumscribed by planning law.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,887
    In answer to the header's question about the superiority of the "Thatcher approach", there are a couple of points which might be made.

    First, it's arguable (and I would so argue) that her "reforms" are a large part of why local government is in so dismal a condition.
    It's extraordinary that someone who banged on about "freedom" quite so much made us one if the most centralised states in Europe.

    Second, a primary reason this reorganisation is a more drawn out process than Mrs T's, is the introduction of statutory consultation for local government reorganisation, introduced by the Local Government Act 1992, and further consolidated by The Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007.

    The '92 Act probably owes its genesis to Thatcher's disastrous attempt to fix local government funding by bringing in a poll tax a couple of years earlier...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    edited 9:16AM
    Foss said:

    MattW said:

    Arrests over that huge illegal waste dump.

    Clear up quotes were of the order of £10m.

    If I have it right, the maximum sentence for the waste dumping is 5 years, with a potential extra 14 years for assessed proceeds of crime, which can be reduced by paying it back.

    I'm reminded that prison really scares white collar criminals, and given that one is 73 and the other 54, a 10 or 12 year sentence should encourager les autres.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy7m3ezr80yo


    12 years would be longer than the average rapist.
    Yes. How do you think it compares?

    I think the severity of offence is perhaps comparable, a personal impact on many thousands of people, rather than a really serious impact on one person and family.

    Dumping approximately 21,000 tonnes of unsorted waste illegally next to the River Cherwell, including dangerous waste. That represents 2000+ 10 tonne loads, which cost £150 to £1000+ each, avoidance of 2000 lorries worth of landfill tax, and environmental damage, plus an attack on the entire system.

    Just on a cost of £500 each and assuming full lorries, you are north of £1 million in equivalent costs.

    Consider how many thousands or tens of thousands of people have had their lives disturbed.

    Why is this less serious than drug smuggling, where we have maximum sentences of either 14 years or life?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,167
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175
    Andy_JS said:
    A lucky escape?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,091
    edited 9:17AM

    Seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I'll be standing in May.

    As a purely paper candidate, same as the previous time I stood.

    Fingers crossed for a resounding defeat.

    Me too, also as a paper candidate, having passed my candidate approval interview with no skeletons found (I didn't mention PB). I'll be helping out with campaigning in the neighbouring ward though, which is a target, albeit a long shot.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Yes, the financial side is a never ending source of frustration, and when you compare the powers and freedoms that similar bodies have in European countries, one can only weep at the desperate state of British local governance.

    Nevertheless, as a humble parish councillor, I bumped into a fellow dog owner on Wednesday who pointed out something that needed attention, and I've just had an email from the county council's contractor confirming that they inspected it yesterday and will hopefully get it sorted today. Happiness is a series of small victories...
    Update: 0916, and the job is reported as done. :) Hopefully I'll be seeing that dog owner again soon...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,901

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    100 homes is not an estate: it's half a small road.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,269
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    Actually, very many small applicants appeal to Bristol and win on appeal, much to the frustration of local councillors. Of course, sometimes these are proposals where the basis for rejection was more political than objective, and what planning authorities are able to refuse is heavily circumscribed by planning law.
    Define very many.

    If you've enough funding and patience then yes you can, but very many don't too.

    And very many could-be developers don't even bother putting in the applications in the first place, because they won't be able to work with the rejection and appeal process.

    It is worth noting that countries without convoluted years-long planning and appeal process tend to have many small developers building things rather than an oligopoly of large developers.

    Barratt etc that form our oligopoly are creatures formed and enabled by our planning system.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    Actually, very many small applicants appeal to Bristol and win on appeal, much to the frustration of local councillors. Of course, sometimes these are proposals where the basis for rejection was more political than objective, and what planning authorities are able to refuse is heavily circumscribed by planning law.
    Some enormous percentage of Planning Apps are preapproved (ie Permitted Development) or pass without ever going near a planning committee.

    It is around 90%.

  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,362

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
    So Council Tax at its highest rate as well as Income Tax. You could point to whichever government was in power at a particular time or you could assume we all want more services. We complain about the cost of them but seem able to pay it.

    If you are of the view that all these services are unaffordable, then perhaps a particular party will show the way by cutting services they deem to be unnecessary. So far can't see which party are demonstrating this, though some make promises to do it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175
    edited 9:23AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
    That aspect of the graph isn't a surprise, given that the cost pressures local councils have to meet - principally from adult and child social services - rise inexorably, and other sources of funding from central government have been mercilessly cut. Council Tax increases have typically been capped somewhere around inflation, but for some years now they've been allowed an extra 2% to cover social services pressures. Those extra 2%s compound over all those years. Although even in England, most of the increase is historic, up to about 2003.

    The interesting thing about the graph is why Scotland is so different, post 2006?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,887
    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the local government election/funding problem illustrates a fairly diagnosable democracy problem along with a concept problem as well.

    Firstly in any notionally democratic hierarchy a general rule applies, arising out of human nature: the higher level of the democratic hierarchy will always want to maximise its power and minimise its responsibility.

    The conceptual problem in local democracy is that it is rational to want two incompatible things: local decision and accountability but also an absence of 'postcode lottery' about any local service we happen to want at any particular moment.

    In respect of Westminster v local government this is fairly obvious. But because total state managed expenditure is a vast proportion of all activity from building nuclear submarines to park benches and playground swings it goes right down to the level of the village primary school and beyond.

    Result: blame transference is one of the great creative industries of the democratic world. It is a social blight. Result: good well intentioned school governors (volunteers) and management etc spend long winter evenings exercising responsibility without power, while a thousand miles away well paid politicians exercise power without responsibility.

    Underneath is the problem that local government has no constitutional basis and hence no security.

    In most other democracies, the fundamentals of its local governance are set out in its constitution. For sure, constitutions can change - but that's normally an extended process with a series of hurdles to jump, and not something governments do lightly.

    The absence of any formalised constitution in the UK means that local government exists and operates entirely at the whim of national government - it can be re-organised, abolished, have its election dates changed, have its funding cut or capped, all according to the political decisions of a majority party at Westminster, elected on 35-40% of the vote, and has next to no reliable funding sources of its own (other than, perhaps, parking charges - which in itself explains a lot).
    There's perhaps a very gradual movement in the opposite direction with the introduction of regional mayors ?

    And it ought to be acknowledged that the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill, which is causing the controversy discussed in the header, does significantly increase powers devolved to the higher tier of local government.

  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,091

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
    He said over the last 20 years, which is what the graphs show: England roughly flat; Wales up a bit; Scotland down a bit. They were indeed rising before that though.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    edited 9:26AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
    I make 2 comparisons.

    My first comparator is Band D vs CPI from 2005 to 2025, which is flat in real terms (91% vs 95% increase in cash terms).

    My cross check is average household expenditure on Council Tax vs CPI, which is the graph, which is also flat in 2024 money (ie real) terms.

    ie It has not been hiked in real terms.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,538
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    Prediction: Trump won’t piss off when his term ends; if it ends.
    The way things are going, he'll be in one of the new assylums he himself is opening, by then
    The Donald Trump Asylum for the Criminally Insane.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,175

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    Actually, very many small applicants appeal to Bristol and win on appeal, much to the frustration of local councillors. Of course, sometimes these are proposals where the basis for rejection was more political than objective, and what planning authorities are able to refuse is heavily circumscribed by planning law.
    Define very many.

    If you've enough funding and patience then yes you can, but very many don't too.

    And very many could-be developers don't even bother putting in the applications in the first place, because they won't be able to work with the rejection and appeal process.

    It is worth noting that countries without convoluted years-long planning and appeal process tend to have many small developers building things rather than an oligopoly of large developers.

    Barratt etc that form our oligopoly are creatures formed and enabled by our planning system.
    There's tons of data here. Over recent years the proportion allowed has risen from just over a quarter to just under a third. The ones dealt with by written representations, rather than hearings or inquiries, will be the smaller ones.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6808d5534dd7e0f8897a6227/Annex_A_Word_Planning_Inspectorate_Statistical_Release_April_2025.pdf
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 241
    How refreshing to read something about the local election postponements that isn't the usual 'uniparty conspiracy because they're all frightened of losing to Reform' type dross.

    Thank you.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,505
    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the local government election/funding problem illustrates a fairly diagnosable democracy problem along with a concept problem as well.

    Firstly in any notionally democratic hierarchy a general rule applies, arising out of human nature: the higher level of the democratic hierarchy will always want to maximise its power and minimise its responsibility.

    The conceptual problem in local democracy is that it is rational to want two incompatible things: local decision and accountability but also an absence of 'postcode lottery' about any local service we happen to want at any particular moment.

    In respect of Westminster v local government this is fairly obvious. But because total state managed expenditure is a vast proportion of all activity from building nuclear submarines to park benches and playground swings it goes right down to the level of the village primary school and beyond.

    Result: blame transference is one of the great creative industries of the democratic world. It is a social blight. Result: good well intentioned school governors (volunteers) and management etc spend long winter evenings exercising responsibility without power, while a thousand miles away well paid politicians exercise power without responsibility.

    Underneath is the problem that local government has no constitutional basis and hence no security.

    In most other democracies, the fundamentals of its local governance are set out in its constitution. For sure, constitutions can change - but that's normally an extended process with a series of hurdles to jump, and not something governments do lightly.

    The absence of any formalised constitution in the UK means that local government exists and operates entirely at the whim of national government - it can be re-organised, abolished, have its election dates changed, have its funding cut or capped, all according to the political decisions of a majority party at Westminster, elected on 35-40% of the vote, and has next to no reliable funding sources of its own (other than, perhaps, parking charges - which in itself explains a lot).
    Yes. Is that part of a wider question too? Local government is entirely a creation of statute and has no other intrinsic existence. But, as you indicate, is this not true of more or less everything. The monarchy; the Scottish and Welsh parliament/assembly; the NI settlement. LG is not set out in constitution because we don't have a constitution in the sense of anything that either binds parliament or sets up hurdles beyond the hurdles facing the most trivial of legislation. This I suppose would include its power to abolish itself.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,269
    edited 9:29AM
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
    I make 2 comparisons.

    My first comparator is Band D vs CPI from 2005 to 2025, which is flat in real terms (91% vs 95% increase in cash terms).

    My cross check is average household expenditure on Council Tax vs CPI, which is the graph, which is also flat in 2024 money (ie real) terms.

    ie It has not been hiked in real terms.
    Ah, you're right, my apologies, I spotted the CPI issue and took your numbers as coming from the graph, but didn't read the x-axis. The sharp increase is the decade from 1997-2007.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    No it would see homes built entirely out of keeping with the area and overshadowing neighbours etc.

    Whether a developer wins on appeal or not depends on the strength of their legal case
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,505
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the local government election/funding problem illustrates a fairly diagnosable democracy problem along with a concept problem as well.

    Firstly in any notionally democratic hierarchy a general rule applies, arising out of human nature: the higher level of the democratic hierarchy will always want to maximise its power and minimise its responsibility.

    The conceptual problem in local democracy is that it is rational to want two incompatible things: local decision and accountability but also an absence of 'postcode lottery' about any local service we happen to want at any particular moment.

    In respect of Westminster v local government this is fairly obvious. But because total state managed expenditure is a vast proportion of all activity from building nuclear submarines to park benches and playground swings it goes right down to the level of the village primary school and beyond.

    Result: blame transference is one of the great creative industries of the democratic world. It is a social blight. Result: good well intentioned school governors (volunteers) and management etc spend long winter evenings exercising responsibility without power, while a thousand miles away well paid politicians exercise power without responsibility.

    Underneath is the problem that local government has no constitutional basis and hence no security.

    In most other democracies, the fundamentals of its local governance are set out in its constitution. For sure, constitutions can change - but that's normally an extended process with a series of hurdles to jump, and not something governments do lightly.

    The absence of any formalised constitution in the UK means that local government exists and operates entirely at the whim of national government - it can be re-organised, abolished, have its election dates changed, have its funding cut or capped, all according to the political decisions of a majority party at Westminster, elected on 35-40% of the vote, and has next to no reliable funding sources of its own (other than, perhaps, parking charges - which in itself explains a lot).
    There's perhaps a very gradual movement in the opposite direction with the introduction of regional mayors ?

    And it ought to be acknowledged that the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill, which is causing the controversy discussed in the header, does significantly increase powers devolved to the higher tier of local government.

    I am just wondering if the increase in 'powers' is actually an increase in responsibilities and liabilities but without all the powers necessary to do them effectively.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,467
    Nigelb said:

    In answer to the header's question about the superiority of the "Thatcher approach", there are a couple of points which might be made.

    First, it's arguable (and I would so argue) that her "reforms" are a large part of why local government is in so dismal a condition.
    It's extraordinary that someone who banged on about "freedom" quite so much made us one if the most centralised states in Europe.

    Second, a primary reason this reorganisation is a more drawn out process than Mrs T's, is the introduction of statutory consultation for local government reorganisation, introduced by the Local Government Act 1992, and further consolidated by The Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007.

    The '92 Act probably owes its genesis to Thatcher's disastrous attempt to fix local government funding by bringing in a poll tax a couple of years earlier...

    Hence Major replaced it with the council tax
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,269
    edited 9:32AM
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    Actually, very many small applicants appeal to Bristol and win on appeal, much to the frustration of local councillors. Of course, sometimes these are proposals where the basis for rejection was more political than objective, and what planning authorities are able to refuse is heavily circumscribed by planning law.
    Define very many.

    If you've enough funding and patience then yes you can, but very many don't too.

    And very many could-be developers don't even bother putting in the applications in the first place, because they won't be able to work with the rejection and appeal process.

    It is worth noting that countries without convoluted years-long planning and appeal process tend to have many small developers building things rather than an oligopoly of large developers.

    Barratt etc that form our oligopoly are creatures formed and enabled by our planning system.
    There's tons of data here. Over recent years the proportion allowed has risen from just over a quarter to just under a third. The ones dealt with by written representations, rather than hearings or inquiries, will be the smaller ones.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6808d5534dd7e0f8897a6227/Annex_A_Word_Planning_Inspectorate_Statistical_Release_April_2025.pdf
    Which does not address any of my points I raised.

    The proportion allowed is based on those submitted, those submitted are self-selected as those who essentially think they can get through and it is worth submitting. That's why those percentages are as flawed as a voodoo poll.

    It does not consider any of those who could have built a home under a different system but don't bother as they don't want to get through this broken process.

    And if you weed out those, and leave behind an oligopoly with lawyers who are used to playing the system then that will increase the percentage approved since they know how to tick every box.

    Go to zonal planning, enable anyone to build without seeking consent first if they are in a zone approved for habitation, then small developers won't be weeded out.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,549

    Seems like an appropriate thread to mention that I'll be standing in May.

    As a purely paper candidate, same as the previous time I stood.

    Fingers crossed for a resounding defeat.

    As a green aren’t you taking quite a big risk of actually winning?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,269
    edited 9:38AM
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    No it would see homes built entirely out of keeping with the area and overshadowing neighbours etc.

    Whether a developer wins on appeal or not depends on the strength of their legal case
    'out of keeping' is such an ironic criticism when the other criticism typically levied is that homes new homes are all identikit red brick carbon copies of each other. Variety is the spice of life, if people can build individual rather than monolithic homes then yes some might be out of keeping with each other, but that makes them unique and interesting and adds character - and its their home, not yours, so what's the issue?

    As for overshadowing, its entirely simple to put in regulations of building standards without needing a planning system. Eg say "this land is zoned for houses of no more than 2/3/5 (as appropriate) stories and there must be a minimum gap of (0/[insert here]) between the home and the edge of the plot" which prevents the overshadowing issues.

    So long as houses are built to code, there should be no problem.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,183
    edited 9:41AM
    On topic: Jenrick and Gove have never fucked anything up?
    Gove, the education system and free schools for starters, Jenrick would be hard pushed to point to anything he hasn't fucked up.

    Putting that to one side. What is the problem the reorganization is trying to solve?

    If it is the current financial crisis then limited council budgets only buy so much tarmac, refuse services and people regardless of the size of the council purchasing it.
    Reorganization might create efficiencies in future but immediately it will only take money out of a budget that is already too small to deliver basic services. The councils that are in the worst debt are those that tried risky money making schemes so they could afford to provide basic services, made possible by removal of the oversight of the audit commission (brilliant Conservative cost-saving measure).

    I'm not against reorganization, but at this point any penny Councils have needs to be spent on services, re-organization can wait until councils are on a surer financial footing. If it's a choice between filling potholes or rebranding council leaflets the priority of residents is clear.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,549

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    Unfortunately for those of us whose instincts are on some version the right, that's largely on us.

    Democracy has to include the freedom to make mistakes, if it's what the people vote for. Thatcher reduced that freedom with rates caps and abolition of disagreeable councils like the GLC. Major made it worse by changing the balance of local to central funding to make the Community Charge less painful.

    Osborne did a lot of austerity by passing the buck to.local councils, then Eric Pickles made it all but impossible to increase Council Tax to meet changing needs, let alone political wants.

    So now councils do social care, almost nothing else, and nobody can make the Sims add up. And the more prudent your council has been in the past, the worse the problem since there's less residual muscle to cut.

    God knows why anyone would bother being a local councillor now.
    We need to invest more in schools for Sims then
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,195
    https://apnews.com/article/panama-canal-ports-us-china-b5fe3cdcc1fce45dbf1b0843a620830a

    Panama’s Supreme Court ruled late Thursday that the concession held by a subsidiary of Hong Kong’s CK Hutchison Holdings to operate ports at either end of the Panama Canal is unconstitutional, an outcome that advances a U.S. aim to block any influence by China over the strategic waterway.
  • lloyds0lloyds0 Posts: 1
    Yup, because every single time Labour get into power (excluding the splendid Tony Blair) they’re beholden to their soft-left backbenchers, activists and trade unions who are firm believers in the magic money tree (not least because most work in the public sector) and are wholly averse to making those difficult decisions mentioned above.

    It’s so effing wearying because it always lets the Tories back in and they remain consistently awful (most anyway) at actually growing the economy.

    Bit dispiriting really. As for Reform? Don’t be absurd.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,520

    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
    That is three Tory black holes....
    To be fair to Gordon, the Tories had "bought too much cheap gold". According to him.
    I'll buy as much as you can find at his sale price of $275 an ounce.

    As it's over $5,000 today....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915
    edited 9:46AM
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    Actually, very many small applicants appeal to Bristol and win on appeal, much to the frustration of local councillors. Of course, sometimes these are proposals where the basis for rejection was more political than objective, and what planning authorities are able to refuse is heavily circumscribed by planning law.
    Define very many.

    If you've enough funding and patience then yes you can, but very many don't too.

    And very many could-be developers don't even bother putting in the applications in the first place, because they won't be able to work with the rejection and appeal process.

    It is worth noting that countries without convoluted years-long planning and appeal process tend to have many small developers building things rather than an oligopoly of large developers.

    Barratt etc that form our oligopoly are creatures formed and enabled by our planning system.
    There's tons of data here. Over recent years the proportion allowed has risen from just over a quarter to just under a third. The ones dealt with by written representations, rather than hearings or inquiries, will be the smaller ones.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6808d5534dd7e0f8897a6227/Annex_A_Word_Planning_Inspectorate_Statistical_Release_April_2025.pdf
    Very Roughly:

    300k Planning Applications per annum.
    18k Planning Appeals. 30-35% success rate.
    300k Permitted Development notifications.
    And a larger number that require no notification.

    There exists a process called Building Notice, where you just serve notice that you are starting, and you are confident enough that it will be correct.

    There's been quite a big hike in Planning Applications under the new Government, but not in London (which we have discussed).

    Note that Planning Applications are also about risk management, and other things.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,549
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    Prediction: Trump won’t piss off when his term ends; if it ends.
    The way things are going, he'll be in one of the new assylums he himself is opening, by then
    Inspired typo…
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,259

    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
    That is three Tory black holes....
    To be fair to Gordon, the Tories had "bought too much cheap gold". According to him.
    I'll buy as much as you can find at his sale price of $275 an ounce.

    As it's over $5,000 today....
    Fairy nuff, Mark, but it is hindsighting. We can all do that.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,549
    edited 9:50AM

    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    You have influence, but no real power nowadays. But then you could say the same about the job of the backbench MP. Indeed, in terms of decision-making, the average council cabinet member or committee chair probably has more individual influence on the world than does the average backbench MP.
    I really wouldn't want to be a local councillor, beyond trying to get your local roads repaired (overriding the desires of your neighbouring councillor) the only thing you may get to do is decide on some planning applications.

    Meanwhile things will continue to fall apart and workers get made redundant as social care costs continue to eat all the none social care budgets..
    Though even the planning thing is questionable- in a well-run setup, councillors are just checking whether an application complies with policy. Their actual discretion is pretty limited (they can refuse, but if it's because they don't like something it will be overturned on appeal. They can nichten lichten, but they have to go along with it.

    On top of which, the move to Leader + Cabinet (Blair's idea?) renders most backbench councillors pretty decorative.
    The problem with our broken planning system is that yes the oligopoly of large developers can get things through on appeal, because they can operate within the rules of the system they understand and have lawyers that understand it . . . but would-be small developers can't.

    So if someone wants to build a home, that can get rejected and good look getting that through on appeal. Someone wants to build an estate of 100 homes, then rejections just delay but don't prevent that, for which everyone loses (opponents don't see it defeated, those who need the homes just see them delayed).

    Sensible zonal planning reform and removing the role of Councillors entirely from individual decisions, would enable small competitors to compete with the oligopoly.
    100 homes is not an estate: it's half a small road.
    Half a small road?

    Luuuxary!

    I grew up on a dirt track
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,578
    edited 9:48AM

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    All of which can be true, but at the same time absolutely no excuse for cancelling elections.

    Local government would IMHO be improved by letting councils raise more of their own money, relying less on central grants to fulfil central obligations.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,915

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The argument is interesting - thanks.

    I'm actually not familiar with Jenrick & co having been involved in this; I need to read some 2010 to 2023 history, perhaps.

    IMO the stuff about "hiking Council tax" (which I lost count of how many times Rabbit mentioned it) is very strange and highly political, because according to my numbers Band D Council tax (the basic number from which others are defined) has risen between 2005 and 2025 by 95%, whilst CPI inflation has risen by 91%, which is as near as dammit identical.

    To take the numbers on a UK wide average per household (rather than Band D) the increase is still marginal. England is flat over 20 years, Wales is up, Scotland is down. Source ONS via Dan Neidle.

    Councils have not "hiked" Council Tax; that is an urban myth.

    We need to compare that to changes in centralised support and service responsibilities to get a proper handle on that. I suggest that poor services is related to level of responsibilities being increased or reduced left that resources from the centre have been cut. That is a function of Central Government not giving a damn.

    A very useful article where I sourced the above graph:
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/11/24/council-tax-has-it-gone-up/#:~:text=Showing first 20 rows of,council tax is largely unchanged.

    I'm not sure where the graph went:

    I think you've misread the graph. That's a graph of real Council Tax rates (at 2024 price) using CPI. It even says so in both the header and in the small print (CPI).

    So you can't then compare against CPI, as CPI has already been taken into account.

    So your graph does not show that Council Taxes are flat against CPI, they have basically doubled in real terms even having taken into account CPI.
    I make 2 comparisons.

    My first comparator is Band D vs CPI from 2005 to 2025, which is flat in real terms (91% vs 95% increase in cash terms).

    My cross check is average household expenditure on Council Tax vs CPI, which is the graph, which is also flat in 2024 money (ie real) terms.

    ie It has not been hiked in real terms.
    Ah, you're right, my apologies, I spotted the CPI issue and took your numbers as coming from the graph, but didn't read the x-axis. The sharp increase is the decade from 1997-2007.
    Thanks. Apologies for any lack of clarity.

    I'd go for more significant local autonomy, and given relative success of regional mayors in some places that seems to be the best chance we will get.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,246
    edited 9:50AM

    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
    That is three Tory black holes....
    To be fair to Gordon, the Tories had "bought too much cheap gold". According to him.
    I'll buy as much as you can find at his sale price of $275 an ounce.

    As it's over $5,000 today....
    Fairy nuff, Mark, but it is hindsighting. We can all do that.
    True. But the part where he announced he was planning to sell, thus depressing the price...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,887
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    In answer to the header's question about the superiority of the "Thatcher approach", there are a couple of points which might be made.

    First, it's arguable (and I would so argue) that her "reforms" are a large part of why local government is in so dismal a condition.
    It's extraordinary that someone who banged on about "freedom" quite so much made us one if the most centralised states in Europe.

    Second, a primary reason this reorganisation is a more drawn out process than Mrs T's, is the introduction of statutory consultation for local government reorganisation, introduced by the Local Government Act 1992, and further consolidated by The Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007.

    The '92 Act probably owes its genesis to Thatcher's disastrous attempt to fix local government funding by bringing in a poll tax a couple of years earlier...

    Hence Major replaced it with the council tax
    That's not really the point.

    The header was suggesting that Lady Thatcher's approach was somehow better. It wasn't any such thing, IMO.

    And today's snail pace for getting any reform through is arguably attributable to the (largely performative) consultation processes introduced as a response to her intemperate mucking around with local government.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,578

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Oligarchs have been buying gold for rubles from the Russian state. The billions of rubles they have stashed are otherwise essentially worthless.
    In my day job my conversations with OFSI have increased exponentially in the last six months as more and more Russians are desperately trying to sell stuff.
    They’ve been turning up in the sandpit with old-fashioned and new-fashioned money - gold and bitcoin - and are realising how difficult it is to liquidate large quantities of either at anywhere close to the published market prices.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,520

    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news this morning, Russia has got rid of 71% of its gold reserves since 2022.

    https://x.com/kshevchenkoreal/status/2016907186749002198

    It appears that, as with their oil, China is the buyer at a significant discount to market price.

    Russia is slowly being hollowed-out as a country, they’re trying to fight a ground war and have run out of tanks. The entire Soviet stockpile of more than ten thousand tanks, all gone to give the Ukranians some scrap metal for recycling.

    Reminded me: The gold Brown sold off for £3.5bn is now worth £50bn.
    That is three Tory black holes....
    To be fair to Gordon, the Tories had "bought too much cheap gold". According to him.
    I'll buy as much as you can find at his sale price of $275 an ounce.

    As it's over $5,000 today....
    Fairy nuff, Mark, but it is hindsighting. We can all do that.
    Er, no. Ittanked the gold price by putting so much on the market. That in turn led to a consortium of central banks — including the European Central Bank and the Bank of England — signing the Washington Agreement on Gold in September 1999, limiting gold sales to 400 tonnes (13,000,000 ozt) per year for 5 years.

    This in turn triggered a sharp rise in the price of gold, from around US$260 per ounce to around $330 per ounce in two weeks.

    So no, it required no hindsight to see that flooding the market would mean a shite price was going to be obtained at the time. The change in price since is just a brutal reminder of how badly he was advised. If he took any advice...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,520

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Trump says dangerous for the UK and Canada to be doing business with China, as Starmer heads to Shanghai and after Carney's recent trip

    "Donald Trump says 'very dangerous' for UK to do business with China as Starmer lands in Shanghai - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0keyyeyr41o

    Burner phones and ‘safe’ charging cables. Nothing to see here.

    Starmer, and the British Establishment generally, still believe in international order and free trade as taught in GCSE economics and PPE 101. We got ripped off by the Americans and we will get ripped off by the Chinese. Heck, we even got ripped off by the French. They think China will play by the rules because they think everyone plays by the rules.

    And in doing so they'll piss off the Americans because they want to piss off Trump but have not thought about what happens after Trump pisses off when his term ends in three years or less. They've forgotten about not burning your bridges on the way out.
    Prediction: Trump won’t piss off when his term ends; if it ends.
    The way things are going, he'll be in one of the new assylums he himself is opening, by then
    Inspired typo…
    It's like a donkey sanctuary, but for ex-Presidents...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,072
    @chadbourn.bsky.social‬

    Four B-52H Stratofortress strategic bombers have left the US bound for the Diego Garcia military base in the Indian Ocean.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,829
    Sandpit said:

    A good contribution, although a little bit partisan which risks obscuring the real debate.

    Local government seems to me in England to be entirely performative, which is why I've never stood as a councillor.

    Voting is effectively cosmetic because they have no real power to change anything other than trying to square the impossible.

    All of which can be true, but at the same time absolutely no excuse for cancelling elections.

    Local government would IMHO be improved by letting councils raise more of their own money, relying less on central grants to fulfil central obligations.
    This is exactly electing councillors to a body in process of being scrapped, to entities in last throws of drawdown, council seats with only MONTHS to exist. What could be even more performative than doing such a thing? 🤷‍♀️ Casino has the great word I should have used in the header.

    Lady Thatcher was right, actually, get in administrators to manage this short transition period at fraction of the cost to budgets and tax payers. The Conservatives were right to cancel elections in 2019 and 2022 too.
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