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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379
    edited January 27

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    The problem for Kemi is many Tory MPs still in the party will want a clearer shift to the centre to mild centre right to distinguish them from Labour and Reform. When Jenrick was there they weren't willing to challenge her as he would have shifted the party even further right, now he is gone Tory moderates will see Cleverly as the likeliest replacement for Kemi and he is much more to their taste than she is.

    If the Tories fall to 3rd in May a VONC in her is likely so she needs to ensure second for the party
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,782

    James Walker
    @James_L_Walker

    *Not so fun fact. Matt Goodwin was my dissertation supervisor.

    Only briefly mind. I swapped after he said that my idea - a study and survey on the politics of the homeless (less than 1% vote) - was of "no academic interest".

    I got a 1st 🎓

    https://x.com/James_L_Walker/status/2016184708543951355

    So whilst it would appear Goodwin was a poor tutor-mentor, remember he was an even worse pollster.
    That said, I do respect when people throw their hat in the political ring, as there's a lot of people carping from the sidelines (none here of course) who might still insist they are principally a journalist/academic/take your pick, when really they are basically already a politician and might as well make a real go of it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,866

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    It's almost as if we need an officially recognised definition of Islamophobia, just as we have one of Antisemitism, so we all know what we are talking about :smile: .
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,352

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    Perhaps surprisingly, I agree with you. There's a huge gap between the left and Reform that needs filling, and the Tories are the obvious candidates. But they need to distance themselves more from Reform - not just in policy terms, but in rhetoric also. Be the Pleasant Party is my advice.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,782
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    The problem for Kemi is many Tory MPs still in the party will want a clearer shift to the centre to mild centre right to distinguish them from Labour and Reform. When Jenrick was there there weren't willing to challenge her as he would have shifted the party even further right, now he is gone Tory moderates now will see Cleverly as the likeliest replacement for Kemi and he is much more to their taste than she is.

    If the Tories fall to 3rd in May a VONC in her is likely so she needs to ensure second for the party
    Second? Not happening. So she's toast then.
  • Whoops

    The Green promote Gorten and Denton

    Err - Gorton
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,473
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Ah, I see. Then no, opposing Islamism isn't Islamophobic, just as opposing Zionism isn't antisemitic.
    Zionism wants a slightly larger, so a bit more secure, safe haven than they have now

    Islamism wants the whole world
    Well so does evangelical Christianity, however most of both want to do it via persuasion and peaceful conversion but there is a minority of militant jihadi Islam that wants to do it by violence
    The Evangelicals aren’t even close to Crusaders. And I don’t know the word for the Jewish equivalent
    White Evangelicals supporting Trump are close to crusaders in their values - they need a perceived religious war, and a "threat" to loathe, to justify their political programme.

    The extreme right (eg Yaxley-Lennon and fellow travellers) aresomething different, who want a religious skin for their polityics, and find the fear and hate driven ideas of medieval Roman Catholic Crusaders transplanted to today to be the most convenient for them.
    I hold no brief whatsoever for the crusades or crusaders. Context matters. Jerusalem has been conquered and occupied by: King David, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians (Zoroastrians), Persians (Islamic), classical Greeks, classical Romans, Byzantine Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, Europeans various including crusades and including efforts from GB, Zionists and, I am sure, a few I have missed.
    I have no wish to exculpate crusaders but I don't think we should pick them out of the throng as if unique.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,291
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    The problem for Kemi is many Tory MPs still in the party will want a clearer shift to the centre to mild centre right to distinguish them from Labour and Reform. When Jenrick was there there weren't willing to challenge her as he would have shifted the party even further right, now he is gone Tory moderates now will see Cleverly as the likeliest replacement for Kemi and he is much more to their taste than she is.

    If the Tories fall to 3rd in May a VONC in her is likely so she needs to ensure second for the party
    Second? Not happening. So she's toast then.
    A toasted steak sandwich, surely?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,866
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    That statement is not quite circumscribed enough.

    Messianic Jews do believe such.

    And Jewish Christians, such as Hugh Montefiore the former Bishop of Birmingham.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,153
    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2016231554444415301

    President Donald J. Trump spoke to reporters earlier outside the White House about this past weekend’s shooting of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis by agents with U.S. Border Patrol.

    Reporter: “Do you believe that Alex Pretti's death was justified?”

    Trump: “Well, you know, we're doing a big investigation. I want to see the investigation. I'm gonna be watching over it. I want a very honorable and honest investigation. I have to see it myself.”
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,153
    https://x.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/2016234406260715662

    As @10DowningStreet have now confirmed in a statement:

    "No one in Number 10 told Andy Burnham not to apply to the NEC for permission to stand or gave any indication to him which sought to prejudge the NEC officers' deliberation or decision."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379
    edited January 27
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    That statement is not quite circumscribed enough.

    Messianic Jews do believe such.

    And Jewish Christians, such as Hugh Montefiore the former Bishop of Birmingham.
    Jewish Christians aren't Jews, they have converted to Christianity.

    Orthodox Jews don't believe Messianic Jews are true Jews either and the Supreme Court of Israel ruled they were Christians not Jews in terms of the Law of Return
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,473
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    You don't say.

    Of course, early Christians also famoulsy argued about the precise nature of Christ too, in their own way.
    They still do. The modern literature and scholarship on this, historical, philosophical and theological, is immense and forms a continuing cascade including work of outstanding quality.

    It seems to me, by the way, that one has to be oddly unimaginative as a member of our culture to have no interest in what Jesus was like, what he did and said, his history and his social and religious context. Regardless of whether one is a critic of its aftermath.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,662
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Even if Jesus was real, he stopped his work about 2000 years ago. Everything decreed by the various Christian churches has been the work of (mostly) men, and it often shows. The medieval church/state complex was the ultimate in power and control.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379
    edited January 27

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    The problem for Kemi is many Tory MPs still in the party will want a clearer shift to the centre to mild centre right to distinguish them from Labour and Reform. When Jenrick was there they weren't willing to challenge her as he would have shifted the party even further right, now he is gone Tory moderates will see Cleverly as the likeliest replacement for Kemi and he is much more to their taste than she is.

    If the Tories fall to 3rd in May a VONC in her is likely so she needs to ensure second for the party
    Oh, this centre v Right stuff is such bullshit and so clichéd.

    The Tories should live in the real world and come up with an offer for a strong country, rooted in independence, solvency, sovereignty and a vision for a strong and prosperous future for all.

    That's it.

    This reduco ad absurdium to just be either blue Lib Dems or blue Reform totally misses the point, and is a flase choice and flawed analysis.

    Just be Tory.
    Well that would be reform of ECHR not leave ECHR then for example ie between LD and Reform as Cleverly wanted not copying Reform as Kemi has on that issue.

    Apart from keeping the 2 child benefit cap and opposing nationalising British Steel there is little Kemi is proposing Farage isn't as well
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,943

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,782
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    You don't say.

    Of course, early Christians also famoulsy argued about the precise nature of Christ too, in their own way.
    They still do. The modern literature and scholarship on this, historical, philosophical and theological, is immense and forms a continuing cascade including work of outstanding quality.

    It seems to me, by the way, that one has to be oddly unimaginative as a member of our culture to have no interest in what Jesus was like, what he did and said, his history and his social and religious context. Regardless of whether one is a critic of its aftermath.

    Kyle Broflovski: Think about it. Haven't Luke Skywalker and Santa Claus affected your lives more than most real people in this room? I mean, whether Jesus is real or not, he... he's had a bigger impact on the world than any of us have. And the same could be said of Bugs Bunny and, a-and Superman and Harry Potter. They've changed my life, changed the way I act on the Earth. Doesn't that make them kind of "real."? They might be imaginary, but, but they're more important than most of us here. And they're all gonna be around long after we're dead. So in a way, those things are more realer than any of us.

    (I get all my life lessons from TV shows and movies)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,866
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Ah, I see. Then no, opposing Islamism isn't Islamophobic, just as opposing Zionism isn't antisemitic.
    Zionism wants a slightly larger, so a bit more secure, safe haven than they have now

    Islamism wants the whole world
    Well so does evangelical Christianity, however most of both want to do it via persuasion and peaceful conversion but there is a minority of militant jihadi Islam that wants to do it by violence
    The Evangelicals aren’t even close to Crusaders. And I don’t know the word for the Jewish equivalent
    White Evangelicals supporting Trump are close to crusaders in their values - they need a perceived religious war, and a "threat" to loathe, to justify their political programme.

    The extreme right (eg Yaxley-Lennon and fellow travellers) aresomething different, who want a religious skin for their polityics, and find the fear and hate driven ideas of medieval Roman Catholic Crusaders transplanted to today to be the most convenient for them.
    I hold no brief whatsoever for the crusades or crusaders. Context matters. Jerusalem has been conquered and occupied by: King David, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians (Zoroastrians), Persians (Islamic), classical Greeks, classical Romans, Byzantine Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, Europeans various including crusades and including efforts from GB, Zionists and, I am sure, a few I have missed.
    I have no wish to exculpate crusaders but I don't think we should pick them out of the throng as if unique.
    Whilst I very much agree on the wider comment, I think it is of particular relevance to our politics here at this time so needs to be addressed and kept in mind.

    I'd draw a parallel with the poisoning of historic symbols (eg Swastika, sun wheel, fasces, various others) in the 20C.

    We do not want eg the St George's flag to go the same way, which remains a particular risk.
  • Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Is saying that there should be no home country for Islam problematic?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379
    edited January 27
    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
  • TresTres Posts: 3,439

    Christ, I'm slow. Not checked the news all day, and came here first.

    I skim read the thread and thought that stuff about Matthew Goodwin standing to be the Reform candidate in the by-election was a joke!

    it's shaping up to be a very strange year
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355
    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    Coming round to thinking? Pierre Duhem was arguing that 150 years ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Is saying that there should be no home country for Islam problematic?
    Perhaps but there are numerous Islamic majority nations, including most of North Africa and the Middle East and much of South Asia
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    By-election kicking off with Goodwin's views on race already flagged up.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jan/27/matthew-goodwin-gorton-and-denton-reform-uk-minorities

    Question is will it be the referendum that Goodwin wants it to be, on Starmer - or a referendum on Reform and these sort of views.

    Point is you can vote against both with the Greens.

    This by-election could be quite incendiary and I think the higher the stakes, the more likely we are to see a Caerphilly-type result, with the Greens the winners aided by a huge tactical vote.

    The Greens, in their own way, are just a bad (if not worse) than Reform.

    Their policy platform of wealth tax now, free Gaza, transvestives are women, open borders, just nuts and nothing at all on the environment.
    That's plainly not true; for a start, there's lots about the environment in their last manifesto, which is on their website. You may not agree with their environmental policies, but they certainly have them. Of course, they also have policies on other areas. If they didn't, they'd rightly be accused of being a single-issue party.

    And no, they are not worse than Reform. Their policies are pretty unrealistic, but are at least grounded in reality, while Reform are complete fantasists as well as utter shits.
    It is most certainly true. They are just as dangerous and economic lunatics.

    They have a new leader since the last election and last manifesto. They speak little about the environment now.

    Yes, wealth tax now, open borders, free Palestine, cross dressing men are women are all policies ‘grounded in reality’ 🙄

    They are just fantasists too.
    But at least they are not treasonous fantasists. And they aren't climate change deniers.
    I find it so amusing to see people embracing patriotism simply as a stick to beat Reform with, many of these people, and the parties they support, would simply sell the nation and its sovereignty out to embrace the likes of the European Union.

    It’s like their ‘patriotism’ is skin deep and convenient.

    Last refuge of the scoundrel, innit.
  • HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    Not even in a roundabout way ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,866
    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    That statement is not quite circumscribed enough.

    Messianic Jews do believe such.

    And Jewish Christians, such as Hugh Montefiore the former Bishop of Birmingham.
    Jewish Christians aren't Jews, they have converted to Christianity.

    Orthodox Jews don't believe Messianic Jews are true Jews either and the Supreme Court of Israel ruled they were Christians not Jews in terms of the Law of Return
    I don't think that is a defensible argument, on the basis that Jewishness is an ethnic, as well as religious, identity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    But what is Islamism in people’s minds?

    What if in their minds people think Islamism is against modern liberal, secularized societies, on basis they risk moral decay attempting to exist without a spiritual foundation, so Islamism insists on a structured society guided by Islamism principles, comprising a Islamic state.
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Islamism against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Islamism values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Islamism principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Islamist.
    * The Community of Islamism: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Islamism acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    If in your mind all this was Islamism, would you not say you are opposed to that?
    It is ironic, in light of that, to reflect that the Pilgrim Fathers insisted on a full separation of church and state on the grounds that secular power corrupted everything and they did not want it to damage their religious observances.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,439

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    Perhaps surprisingly, I agree with you. There's a huge gap between the left and Reform that needs filling, and the Tories are the obvious candidates. But they need to distance themselves more from Reform - not just in policy terms, but in rhetoric also. Be the Pleasant Party is my advice.
    Badenoch has a unique opportunity to be tough on immigration and woke culture, without being seen as racist or sexist, and even if people do think it, she won't be as bad as Reform. She can also position herself as the only leader prepared to be tough on welfare by refusing to scrap the two child cap and potentially breaking the triple lock. She definitely has the highest ceiling of the current leaders in so far as being transformative. Anything Farage did, or tried to do, as PM would be akin to Theresa may trying to get a Brexit deal agreed. Whenever I imagine PM Farage my mind goes back to the purgatory of 2017-19, and the endless binary arguments between Leave and Remain
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355
    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    That statement is not quite circumscribed enough.

    Messianic Jews do believe such.

    And Jewish Christians, such as Hugh Montefiore the former Bishop of Birmingham.
    Jewish Christians aren't Jews, they have converted to Christianity.

    Orthodox Jews don't believe Messianic Jews are true Jews either and the Supreme Court of Israel ruled they were Christians not Jews in terms of the Law of Return
    I don't think that is a defensible argument, on the basis that Jewishness is an ethnic, as well as religious, identity.
    Certainly it didn't save them from Auschwitz, as it might be worth noting on Holocaust Memorial Day. There was a Catholic church in the Warsaw Ghetto for those Jewish Catholics incarcerated there.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,203

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
  • HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Is saying that there should be no home country for Islam problematic?
    Perhaps but there are numerous Islamic majority nations, including most of North Africa and the Middle East and much of South Asia
    And none of them have the number of Jews in them that Israel has Muslims. But one majority Jew state is opposed by huge numbers everywhere

    And those same people are silent about Iran
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,022
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    I think it is probably true that the Christian foundations go deeper than people realise, they underestimate the impact of such a long period of intense Christian culture and assume certain things are universal when they are not or, to the extent that certain ideas and norms do crop up all over the world and other cultures, they may not be in quite the same forms.

    That being said when reading Holland's Dominion I did feel he was overegging the point a bit much all the same, it was a bit weakly argued in places, and even accepting the foundations doesn't require the kind of overt push that some who raise the point would prefer.
    Ahem, surely Judeo-Christian?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,319

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    By-election kicking off with Goodwin's views on race already flagged up.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jan/27/matthew-goodwin-gorton-and-denton-reform-uk-minorities

    Question is will it be the referendum that Goodwin wants it to be, on Starmer - or a referendum on Reform and these sort of views.

    Point is you can vote against both with the Greens.

    This by-election could be quite incendiary and I think the higher the stakes, the more likely we are to see a Caerphilly-type result, with the Greens the winners aided by a huge tactical vote.

    The Greens, in their own way, are just a bad (if not worse) than Reform.

    Their policy platform of wealth tax now, free Gaza, transvestives are women, open borders, just nuts and nothing at all on the environment.
    That's plainly not true; for a start, there's lots about the environment in their last manifesto, which is on their website. You may not agree with their environmental policies, but they certainly have them. Of course, they also have policies on other areas. If they didn't, they'd rightly be accused of being a single-issue party.

    And no, they are not worse than Reform. Their policies are pretty unrealistic, but are at least grounded in reality, while Reform are complete fantasists as well as utter shits.
    It is most certainly true. They are just as dangerous and economic lunatics.

    They have a new leader since the last election and last manifesto. They speak little about the environment now.

    Yes, wealth tax now, open borders, free Palestine, cross dressing men are women are all policies ‘grounded in reality’ 🙄

    They are just fantasists too.
    But at least they are not treasonous fantasists. And they aren't climate change deniers.
    I find it so amusing to see people embracing patriotism simply as a stick to beat Reform with, many of these people, and the parties they support, would simply sell the nation and its sovereignty out to embrace the likes of the European Union.

    It’s like their ‘patriotism’ is skin deep and convenient.

    Last refuge of the scoundrel, innit.
    That's misrepresented, though - it's that appealing to that as a get out for the crapness of all other arguments that makes it the last resort of a scoundrel.

    I.e. you're not patriotic if you don't agree with me on what I've done or not done on this bit.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,853
    The Greens will bankrupt the country and Reform will turn it into a raging cesspit of hate and division .

    And these are apparently the two front runners in the by-election . Jeez what a choice .
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,473

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Even if Jesus was real, he stopped his work about 2000 years ago. Everything decreed by the various Christian churches has been the work of (mostly) men, and it often shows. The medieval church/state complex was the ultimate in power and control.
    A one line summary of 2000 years of church history doesn't quite do it justice. Anyway, it's not Jesus's fault that he lived a long time ago. So did Abraham, Homer, Aeschylus, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Moses Maimonides, Ibn Sina, Buddha and Shakespeare. It doesn't prevent them being highly significant characters on today's scene.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355
    edited January 27

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Is saying that there should be no home country for Islam problematic?
    Perhaps but there are numerous Islamic majority nations, including most of North Africa and the Middle East and much of South Asia
    And none of them have the number of Jews in them that Israel has Muslims. But one majority Jew state is opposed by huge numbers everywhere

    And those same people are silent about Iran
    Well, not any more.

    There used to be very large Jewish communities in Egypt, Iraq and Syria.

    Until 1948...

    And Iran until 1979.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,866

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They have lots of tanks !

    (Play nicely; it's time for supper.)
  • My version of Christianity is: learn to enjoy doing good things
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,473
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    Coming round to thinking? Pierre Duhem was arguing that 150 years ago.
    150 years ago it was obvious that it was true. The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,849
    MattW said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    It's almost as if we need an officially recognised definition of Islamophobia, just as we have one of Antisemitism, so we all know what we are talking about :smile: .
    There's a lot of bullshit around this imo. Antisemitism is prejudice against Jews. Islamophobia is prejudice against Muslims. You know both when you see it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,867
    edited January 27

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    So did the Liberals and they were usurped by Johnny come lately Labour.

    The problem both Labour and the Tories have is in their current forms neither demonstrate even the vaguest hint of ideology.

    The New Labour Government of Blair showed a hint of Fabian social justice. If this lot have shown any social justice leg it has passed me by.

    Cameron and Osborne gave us their version of Thatcherite small state Conservatism, but austerity over fifteen years seems to have done more harm than good, although fans could argue it was diluted by Johnsonian big state spending/ spaffing and centralised government corruption during COVID. Stride was on with Marr this evening. And you all think Reeves is confused?

    So what does Starmerism stand for? What is his ideology? Answers please because I don't know and neither does he.

    So what of the Conservatives? What is their USP? They can claim economic growth to fund tax cuts is their aim but we didn't see much of that since 2010 and even less since Brexit. Their offering, hardly an ideology, is diluted racist cruelty. If that's what you want why not go like Jenrick and Braverman for the full fat version.

    So there it is. If you want undiluted Marxism with a hint of ecology vote Green, and if you want performative cruelty against immigrants and (unconscionable to Labour and Tories) wholesale demolition of welfare safety nets and affordable/ free at the point of delivery universal healthcare* you have a home in Reform.

    * Most Reform voters who have bought Reform's performative cruelty to immigrants offer just haven't noticed that they will be refused entry to hospital for pre existing conditions by Nigel's healthcare insurance providers. It has already come as a shock to a lot of trailer dwelling MAGAlanders.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,237

    I think that it’s quite obvious why so many are not inclined to oppose the evil Islamist regime in Iran: they’re Israel’s greatest enemy. So they can’t be all bad

    Is true the Mullahs still want Salman Rushdie dead?
    The Iranian chaos? Yes they do.

    The enlightened, nice ones* are prepared to not actually encourage murdering Mr Rushdie, but can’t say that they are against Khomeni’s fatwah.

    That’s what they say anyway. In private.

    *they will have you stoned to death with nice stones.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    Coming round to thinking? Pierre Duhem was arguing that 150 years ago.
    150 years ago it was obvious that it was true. The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.

    Duhem was writing partly as a reaction to the aggressively anti-Christian writings of his time, blaming the Middle Ages as a time of stagnation and ignorance. Most notably this was put forward by Draper and White, and was popular in France. (It still is popular on the GCSE Medicine through Time course, which is basically wrong on every key fact down to around 1660. This means I do not teach it because I will keep pointing out where it is wrong and confusing the hell out of the markers.)

    Duhem himself was extremely surprised by the results of his research and hesitated over publishing them because he knew it would be controversial. Indeed, after he died publication of the complete System du Monde was held up for many years because of the implacable opposition of the French scientific establishment to its conclusions.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,782
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    I think it is probably true that the Christian foundations go deeper than people realise, they underestimate the impact of such a long period of intense Christian culture and assume certain things are universal when they are not or, to the extent that certain ideas and norms do crop up all over the world and other cultures, they may not be in quite the same forms.

    That being said when reading Holland's Dominion I did feel he was overegging the point a bit much all the same, it was a bit weakly argued in places, and even accepting the foundations doesn't require the kind of overt push that some who raise the point would prefer.
    Ahem, surely Judeo-Christian?
    Shit, I've been out-reasonabled.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,782
    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    It's almost as if we need an officially recognised definition of Islamophobia, just as we have one of Antisemitism, so we all know what we are talking about :smile: .
    There's a lot of bullshit around this imo. Antisemitism is prejudice against Jews. Islamophobia is prejudice against Muslims. You know both when you see it.
    I'd like to think so, but I don't think people do agree on both when they see it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,237
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    I’m personally opposed to the whole “you must forgive people who’ve shown no contrition” thing.
  • HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,237

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
    If they’d stopped at the stop line, instead of driving round the roundabout 7 times…
  • kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    It's almost as if we need an officially recognised definition of Islamophobia, just as we have one of Antisemitism, so we all know what we are talking about :smile: .
    There's a lot of bullshit around this imo. Antisemitism is prejudice against Jews. Islamophobia is prejudice against Muslims. You know both when you see it.
    I'd like to think so, but I don't think people do agree on both when they see it.
    Sadly antisemitism has been weaponised recently which has made it difficult to nail down.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,430
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,473
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    You don't say.

    Of course, early Christians also famoulsy argued about the precise nature of Christ too, in their own way.
    They still do. The modern literature and scholarship on this, historical, philosophical and theological, is immense and forms a continuing cascade including work of outstanding quality.

    It seems to me, by the way, that one has to be oddly unimaginative as a member of our culture to have no interest in what Jesus was like, what he did and said, his history and his social and religious context. Regardless of whether one is a critic of its aftermath.

    Kyle Broflovski: Think about it. Haven't Luke Skywalker and Santa Claus affected your lives more than most real people in this room? I mean, whether Jesus is real or not, he... he's had a bigger impact on the world than any of us have. And the same could be said of Bugs Bunny and, a-and Superman and Harry Potter. They've changed my life, changed the way I act on the Earth. Doesn't that make them kind of "real."? They might be imaginary, but, but they're more important than most of us here. And they're all gonna be around long after we're dead. So in a way, those things are more realer than any of us.

    (I get all my life lessons from TV shows and movies)
    Interesting, and a fair point. I would perhaps be some sort of quasi Christian even if I didn't think Jesus had existed, or if I stopped so thinking (unlikely - the evidence as it happens is overwhelming, much stronger, for example than the evidence for the existence of Virgil or Horace.)

    The great catholic theologian Rahner is the guy with a thing for the 'Christianity' of people who have never thought about it. The longer I live the more I like him.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,237
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    I think it is probably true that the Christian foundations go deeper than people realise, they underestimate the impact of such a long period of intense Christian culture and assume certain things are universal when they are not or, to the extent that certain ideas and norms do crop up all over the world and other cultures, they may not be in quite the same forms.

    That being said when reading Holland's Dominion I did feel he was overegging the point a bit much all the same, it was a bit weakly argued in places, and even accepting the foundations doesn't require the kind of overt push that some who raise the point would prefer.
    Ahem, surely Judeo-Christian?
    Indeed.

    It’s moderately amusing to see (for example) a hard core SWPee getting upset by someone refusing to forgive. And actually using the words “that’s not very Christian of you”.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,473
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Some quite interesting people - Tom Holland is a very obvious example - are coming around to thinking that how Moon Rabbit describes things is actually in some part true, that the Christian foundations of western society go much deeper than people realise in day to day life, that there are dangers in not recognising the significance of the Christendom inheritance and so on. I share that broad understanding FWIW, but I am a Christian of very liberal views.

    What is also the case is that 'state neutrality' is not an option. States decide things and states don't decide by lottery or at random. Neutrality doesn't exist. So the question of what Leviathan stands for and why is always in issue.

    Coming round to thinking? Pierre Duhem was arguing that 150 years ago.
    150 years ago it was obvious that it was true. The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.

    Duhem was writing partly as a reaction to the aggressively anti-Christian writings of his time, blaming the Middle Ages as a time of stagnation and ignorance. Most notably this was put forward by Draper and White, and was popular in France. (It still is popular on the GCSE Medicine through Time course, which is basically wrong on every key fact down to around 1660. This means I do not teach it because I will keep pointing out where it is wrong and confusing the hell out of the markers.)

    Duhem himself was extremely surprised by the results of his research and hesitated over publishing them because he knew it would be controversial. Indeed, after he died publication of the complete System du Monde was held up for many years because of the implacable opposition of the French scientific establishment to its conclusions.
    Thanks. Further research on my part is required.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
    It was, for 40 years.
  • I'd like to apologise for starting the roundabout thing. I was trying to save the thread from itself, but I'm not the Messiah, I'm a very naughty boy.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,405

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    I’m personally opposed to the whole “you must forgive people who’ve shown no contrition” thing.
    It's horrible, difficult, and creates all sorts of problems when you try and run an organisation or country that way ("trespassers will be forgiven", as the Franciscan farm sign says)...

    ... but it's also the only thing that works, both internally and as a way to stop the eternal back-and-forth of resentment. It's the way that Northern Ireland and South Africa eventually got lucky and Israel/Palestine haven't yet.
  • HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
    If they’d stopped at the stop line, instead of driving round the roundabout 7 times…
    Don't go there please
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
    It was, for 40 years.
    Israel was, for more than a thousand years
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,430
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
    It was, for 40 years.
    I'd argue that makes things even worse for someone arguing for a one-state-solution whether Israel wants it or not. Much easier to argue that a state should remain in existence than brought back.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,405

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
    If they’d stopped at the stop line, instead of driving round the roundabout 7 times…
    Don't go there please
    Defintely don't drive round a roundabout 7 times.

    You'll get dizzy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,319
    @kle4 the foundations are probably bollocks, though.

    Most people in Britain would either cheerfully collaborate or acquiesce with an authoritarian leader or State, as Covid showed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,867
    edited January 27
    One for the Centrist Dads. There is a really pretty, super intelligent, Thai Academic on A House through Time.

    This is why right-wingers trying to return Higher Education to wealthy elites is so wrong.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,153
    An early sign that this by election will be bitterly fought:

    https://x.com/lowles_nick/status/2016155408474186025

    @hopenothate will be going ALL IN to stop Matthew Goodwin getting elected in #Gorton&Denton
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,920
    edited January 27

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
    If they’d stopped at the stop line, instead of driving round the roundabout 7 times…
    Don't go there please
    Defintely don't drive round a roundabout 7 times.

    You'll get dizzy.
    First time I ever got pulled over for suspected drink driving was when I drove round a roundabout three times.

    I wasn’t sure what exit to take…

    How did ever drive in unknown places before SatNav.
  • Should the Kurds be allowed a homeland?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379
    edited January 27

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
    And after millions of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust in said Germany and Poland, Jews will never give up their homeland state ever again
  • Has there ever been a "Free This Country" movement that was anti-Islamist, until Free Iran?

    Has there ever been a "Free This Country" movement less supported by the Left since the Soviet Union?
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,751
    My view is that Britain has become an exceptionally non-religious society than strongly supports the ability of members of society to be members of any religion.

    If there are cases where a subset of a religion is overstepping the mark from facilitating willing prayer to enforcing rules on members of society outside of their place or worship, then the government should penalise said organisation.

    If people want religious government, even on a local level, they need to pass laws at national level to facilitate that. Or move to a country where that is the case.

    In any case, my experience of Muslims in that UK would have TSE as a broadly representative sample, and not the imagined Islamist threat that the Reform right imagine. Where there are issues they should be dealt with calmly and not with marginalising rhetoric.
  • Has there ever been a "Free This Country" movement that was anti-Islamist, until Free Iran?

    Has there ever been a "Free This Country" movement less supported by the Left since the Soviet Union?

    Calm down, you're going to cause a national straw shortage at this rate.
  • #competition

    Number of net gains (or losses -ve) for the Dems in the House?
    +11

    Number of net gains (or losses -ve) for the Dems in the Senate?
    +3

    Number of MSPs won by the SNP at the Holyrood election?
    60

    Number of AMs won by Plaid Cymru at the Senedd election?
    43

    UK Party recording the largest poll lead during 2026 and by what percentage (British Polling Council registered pollsters only)?
    Reform 12%

    Labour’s Projected National Share of the vote based on the 2026 local elections according to the BBC?
    19%

    Number of Reform MPs on the 31st December 2026?
    11

    The name of the UK Prime Minister on 31st December 2026?
    Starmer.

    Will Andy Burnham will be an MP on 31st December 2026?
    No

    UK borrowing in the financial year to November 2026 (£132.3bn to November 2025)?
    155.5bn

    UK GDP growth in the 12 months to October 2026 (1.1% to October 2025)?
    1.9%

    Winners of the 2026 FIFA Men’s World Cup?
    France

  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,430

    Should the Kurds be allowed a homeland?

    Ideally, yes... but you'd have to take land away from existing sovereign states to create to it (as opposed to us giving up the Mandate of Palestine)... including Turkey. So, good luck with that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,867

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    It's almost as if we need an officially recognised definition of Islamophobia, just as we have one of Antisemitism, so we all know what we are talking about :smile: .
    There's a lot of bullshit around this imo. Antisemitism is prejudice against Jews. Islamophobia is prejudice against Muslims. You know both when you see it.
    I'd like to think so, but I don't think people do agree on both when they see it.
    Sadly antisemitism has been weaponised recently which has made it difficult to nail down.
    Well put.

    One can baulk at the the likes of Corbyn misinterpreting Netanyahu cruelty and, for use of a more appropriate term, genocide, as the responsibility of wider Judaism. However some on the opposing side have been equally disingenuous having suggested that criticism of Netanyahu genocide is of itself anti-Semitism.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,379
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
    And after millions of Jews were murdered in the Holocaust in said Germany and Poland, Jews will never give up their homeland state ever again
    Today Holocaust Memorial Day of course
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,943

    A question to Blanche, and everyone else - switching word Islam to Christian - would you like to live in a society guided by Christian principles, comprising a Christian state?
    * A Rejection of Neutrality: Christianity against the "neutral" state, believing that a society not built on Christian values would inevitably fall into chaos.
    * Structure:
    * The State: Its laws and, to some extent, its public institutions should be guided by Christianity principles, even if not every citizen is a devout believer.
    * The Community: A society where the rhythm of life (holidays, work) and morality are implicitly Christian.
    * The Community of Christianity: An intellectual and spiritual elite (the "conscious" part of the society) that maintains the theological and moral integrity of the culture. A supreme leader above all politicians.
    * Christianity acts as a moral compass to the State, rather than being controlled by state. 

    Why not Old Testament values? No adultery No stealing no killing no blasphemy no coveting your neighbours ass an eye for an eye all easy to follow if you're not an American
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,574
    O/T Government actually getting on with the HS2 link to Euston.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jan/27/ministers-euston-hs2-tunnelling-begins-london
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,378
    algarkirk said:

    FPT...

    Matthew Goodwin was once a really interesting academic.

    Anyway, he’s a good debater however he’s said some pretty bad things like black British people aren’t English.

    He doesn't think a white person with one foreign grandparent can be British, so Prince William isn't British to him, let alone the King.
    I am no fan of Prof Goodwin in his recent incarnation, but that assertion rather demands a reference and a footnote as he would have called it, or as we call it, a link.

    A kind of odd and creepy supremacist thinking is certainly swilling around in the USA (obvs) and the outer fringes of UK fascism. But I would need to be sure Goodwin really shares that sort of thinking. So I do wonder if he really knows exactly what sort of company he may be keeping.

    Later Edit: I see the Guardian is taking an interest in this issue
    Goodwin has made these predictions about how few people will be White British by a certain time in certain areas, e.g. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/03/white-british-minority-in-40-years-report-claims/ Those calculations only work if every child and grandchild of someone identifying as White Other is not counted as White British. In practice, someone like, say, Michael Howard, with two immigrant parents, is seen as White British by most people and identifies as White British. The implication of Goodwin's maths is that foreign blood leaves the descendants forever foreign.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,319

    An early sign that this by election will be bitterly fought:

    https://x.com/lowles_nick/status/2016155408474186025

    @hopenothate will be going ALL IN to stop Matthew Goodwin getting elected in #Gorton&Denton

    That makes me want to vote for Goodwin.

    Hopenothate are such self-absorbed narcissistic irritating Lefty twats.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,378

    James Walker
    @James_L_Walker

    *Not so fun fact. Matt Goodwin was my dissertation supervisor.

    Only briefly mind. I swapped after he said that my idea - a study and survey on the politics of the homeless (less than 1% vote) - was of "no academic interest".

    I got a 1st 🎓

    https://x.com/James_L_Walker/status/2016184708543951355

    Rumour suggests that there are much worse stories to come from Goodwin's former students!
  • @kle4 the foundations are probably bollocks, though.

    Most people in Britain would either cheerfully collaborate or acquiesce with an authoritarian leader or State, as Covid showed.

    Indigenous American view
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a8X8TCLY8qk
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,636

    O/T Government actually getting on with the HS2 link to Euston.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jan/27/ministers-euston-hs2-tunnelling-begins-london

    Now all they need to to is build it to Manchester and Leeds.
  • Should the Kurds be allowed a homeland?

    Ideally, yes... but you'd have to take land away from existing sovereign states to create to it (as opposed to us giving up the Mandate of Palestine)... including Turkey. So, good luck with that.
    Anti-Zionism means doing the same to Israel. Good luck with that
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,153

    James Walker
    @James_L_Walker

    *Not so fun fact. Matt Goodwin was my dissertation supervisor.

    Only briefly mind. I swapped after he said that my idea - a study and survey on the politics of the homeless (less than 1% vote) - was of "no academic interest".

    I got a 1st 🎓

    https://x.com/James_L_Walker/status/2016184708543951355

    Rumour suggests that there are much worse stories to come from Goodwin's former students!
    Will it be the inverse of the usual scandals and he'll be accused on having a woke past?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
    If they’d stopped at the stop line, instead of driving round the roundabout 7 times…
    Don't go there please
    Defintely don't drive round a roundabout 7 times.

    You'll get dizzy.
    First time I ever got pulled over for suspected drink driving was when I drove round a roundabout three times.

    I wasn’t sure what exit to take…

    How did ever drive in unknown places before SatNav.
    The first Satnav I ever had took me off the wrong exit of a roundabout.

    Which meant I had to do a full circuit of the ring road to get to where I needed to go.

    At rush hour.

    In Milton Keynes.

    It put me off satnav for years.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,035
    @montie
    There really is something sulphurous about Matt Goodwin.
    Incendiary views.
    Suspect opinion polls.
    Massive self-obsession.
    British public life would be so much better without him.
    https://x.com/montie/status/1820201530256990453?s=20
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,829

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    I am sure they'll survive.

    In a way it's a shame that Jenrick had to get caught out this soon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355
    edited January 27

    An early sign that this by election will be bitterly fought:

    https://x.com/lowles_nick/status/2016155408474186025

    @hopenothate will be going ALL IN to stop Matthew Goodwin getting elected in #Gorton&Denton

    That makes me want to vote for Goodwin.

    Hopenothate are such self-absorbed narcissistic irritating Lefty twats.
    Put like that, you can see why he used to be a member of them, apart perhaps from the Lefty bit.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,180

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Former Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has called for the Conservatives to stand aside in the Gorton and Denton by-election to help secure a victory for Reform UK
    https://x.com/GBPolitcs/status/2016198346751328469?s=20

    It's possible he's teetering, but I think the way he's wired and who he is that he's Conservative through and through - wears it like a skin - and has called for these deals before.

    So it's probably just deal-making.
    Probably, though I don't see any good choices for the Tories. They'll be humiliated if/when they stand, but ceding the ground entirely is a big deal for one of the traditional big two, once they officially accept they have no shot and, implicitly or otherwise, their voters should back Reform to beat Labour, well, they're halfway to a pact/merger already.

    Which might not be so bad for them, except that Reform expect to be the leader in any such scenario, notwithstanding the Tories have 10x the seats at the moment.
    I think the Tories should hold their ground and their nerve.

    They made some shit choices on leader over recent years, and badly fucked up on immigration, but I still think they have a distinctive offer that Reform and Labour don't and, weirdly, a place in the English (in particular) political psych rooted in history.
    The problem for Kemi is many Tory MPs still in the party will want a clearer shift to the centre to mild centre right to distinguish them from Labour and Reform. When Jenrick was there they weren't willing to challenge her as he would have shifted the party even further right, now he is gone Tory moderates will see Cleverly as the likeliest replacement for Kemi and he is much more to their taste than she is.

    If the Tories fall to 3rd in May a VONC in her is likely so she needs to ensure second for the party
    Oh, this centre v Right stuff is such bullshit and so clichéd.

    The Tories should live in the real world and come up with an offer for a strong country, rooted in independence, solvency, sovereignty and a vision for a strong and prosperous future for all.

    That's it.

    This reduco ad absurdium to just be either blue Lib Dems or blue Reform totally misses the point, and is a flase choice and flawed analysis.

    Just be Tory.
    It's frustrating isn't it? Having people supposedly on your side obsessed with the minutiae of small ideological differences and missing the big picture they should all be able to unite around.

    Welcome to politics left-wing style!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,651

    An early sign that this by election will be bitterly fought:

    https://x.com/lowles_nick/status/2016155408474186025

    @hopenothate will be going ALL IN to stop Matthew Goodwin getting elected in #Gorton&Denton

    Sounds as though hopenothate really hate him!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,651

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God

    Not even in a roundabout way ?
    Did they have roundabouts in the holy land?
    They did when we drove from Jerusalem to Jericho !!!!
    If they’d stopped at the stop line, instead of driving round the roundabout 7 times…
    Don't go there please
    Defintely don't drive round a roundabout 7 times.

    You'll get dizzy.
    First time I ever got pulled over for suspected drink driving was when I drove round a roundabout three times.

    I wasn’t sure what exit to take…

    How did ever drive in unknown places before SatNav.
    We used roadmaps.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,943
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @washingtonpost.com‬

    Breaking news: Composer Philip Glass withdrew his highly anticipated Symphony No. 15 from its scheduled Kennedy Center performance, saying “the values of the Kennedy Center today are in direct conflict with the message of the Symphony.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/washingtonpost.com/post/3mdg5suxn3i2n

    Bravo to Philip Glass! I've used his music more than once. A unique talent and good to know he's not a whore like the rest of us*!

    *Mark Knoffler being another one
    Whore, or good guy ?
    Good guy. He turned down £1,000,000 to let us use Local Hero because he didn't believe in Thatcher's privatisations
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,355

    O/T Government actually getting on with the HS2 link to Euston.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jan/27/ministers-euston-hs2-tunnelling-begins-london

    Lots of new tunnels being made. Befitting for a government led by such a great borer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,867

    Has there ever been a "Free This Country" movement that was anti-Islamist, until Free Iran?

    Has there ever been a "Free This Country" movement less supported by the Left since the Soviet Union?

    Square me this circle. Why do British borderline fascists demanding the removal of Muslims from the UK find the Emirates such an attractive lifestyle destination? I'd take Monaco or Porto Fino any day of the week.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,378

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    The same is true of being opposed to Israel as a Jewish state. It doesn't make you an anti semite though if you were to tweet such a thing you would never be eligable to stand as a Labour or Tory candidate. The evidence of the truth of that is overwhelming.
    Many Jews would see denying them their only homeland and the only nation on earth they are the majority as antisemitic
    Even *if* you believe the creation of Israel was morally dubious and has done terrible things... then Germany by the same logic should be abolished as a state (brought into being by Prussian wars of aggression and obviously went onto do terrible things). If you think people in Germany have a right to self determination, but not those living in Israel, then something really does seem off.
    The timescales are very different in those two cases.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,493
    nico67 said:

    The Greens will bankrupt the country and Reform will turn it into a raging cesspit of hate and division .

    And these are apparently the two front runners in the by-election . Jeez what a choice .

    Mr Putin, were he a Denton and Gorton elector, would be hard-pressed to choose between Zack and Nige. A NATO withdrawer or a Kremlin apologist.
    As you say, what a choice.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,319

    algarkirk said:

    FPT...

    Matthew Goodwin was once a really interesting academic.

    Anyway, he’s a good debater however he’s said some pretty bad things like black British people aren’t English.

    He doesn't think a white person with one foreign grandparent can be British, so Prince William isn't British to him, let alone the King.
    I am no fan of Prof Goodwin in his recent incarnation, but that assertion rather demands a reference and a footnote as he would have called it, or as we call it, a link.

    A kind of odd and creepy supremacist thinking is certainly swilling around in the USA (obvs) and the outer fringes of UK fascism. But I would need to be sure Goodwin really shares that sort of thinking. So I do wonder if he really knows exactly what sort of company he may be keeping.

    Later Edit: I see the Guardian is taking an interest in this issue
    Goodwin has made these predictions about how few people will be White British by a certain time in certain areas, e.g. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/03/white-british-minority-in-40-years-report-claims/ Those calculations only work if every child and grandchild of someone identifying as White Other is not counted as White British. In practice, someone like, say, Michael Howard, with two immigrant parents, is seen as White British by most people and identifies as White British. The implication of Goodwin's maths is that foreign blood leaves the descendants forever foreign.
    Eric Kaufmann and Matthew Goodwin would have been in exactly the same place 6 years ago.

    Goodwin dived off the deep end, wheres Kaufmann stayed anchored.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,424
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is opposing Islamism Islamophobic?

    Is opposing Judaism antisemitic? I'd say yes to that, so I'd also say yes to your question.
    Islamism is different from Islam. Look them up
    Being opposed to Islam isn't islamophobic. It's a religion, and therefore a philosophy, a belief system, and may be opposed. Exactly as you may be opposed to a political philosophy.

    Similarly, being opposed to Judaism, the religion, isn't antisemitic.
    You oppose the 10 commandments?
    Some of them. But in any case people can support elements of a religious philosophy whilst being opposed to some fundamental tenets of the faith itself.

    Someone might find a lot they like about the teachings of Jesus but still oppose the religious institutions promoting it, or just not agree with (and so oppose) fundamental aspects of its beliefs (eg that Jesus was the son of God).
    Well Jews don't believe Jesus was the son of God
    You don't say.

    Of course, early Christians also famoulsy argued about the precise nature of Christ too, in their own way.
    They still do. The modern literature and scholarship on this, historical, philosophical and theological, is immense and forms a continuing cascade including work of outstanding quality.

    It seems to me, by the way, that one has to be oddly unimaginative as a member of our culture to have no interest in what Jesus was like, what he did and said, his history and his social and religious context. Regardless of whether one is a critic of its aftermath.

    Kyle Broflovski: Think about it. Haven't Luke Skywalker and Santa Claus affected your lives more than most real people in this room? I mean, whether Jesus is real or not, he... he's had a bigger impact on the world than any of us have. And the same could be said of Bugs Bunny and, a-and Superman and Harry Potter. They've changed my life, changed the way I act on the Earth. Doesn't that make them kind of "real."? They might be imaginary, but, but they're more important than most of us here. And they're all gonna be around long after we're dead. So in a way, those things are more realer than any of us.

    (I get all my life lessons from TV shows and movies)
    Perhaps I can introduce you to this thing called "Star Trek"... :)
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