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  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,912
    edited 9:52AM
    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    I've seen mention but no specific identified reports, but OTOH i have not gone and looked very hard.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,074
    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    Exactly my thought.

    Are we really saying our politicians should be held to lesser standards than... lawyers and bankers ?
    Or we try to hold lawyers and bankers to higher standards because of the ample evidence that they are a bunch of crooks and cheats?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,364
    edited 9:53AM

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    If he has a 200 majority the HoC won't be a problem, and don't you fancy being a Reform Peer? I'm putting my name down.
    How useful has Labour's big majority been at getting welfare reforms done ?

    Not that Farage is going to get a 200 majority.
    Starmer could probably have got it through if he'd shown a bit of leadership and not folded like a cheap suit with the early WFA test.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,919
    MattW said:

    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    I've seen mention but no specific identified reports, but OTOH i have not gone and looked very hard.
    We should ask our Saturday trolls. They are sure to tell us.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    This is where we need Leon's TwiX expertise.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,431
    edited 9:59AM
    MattW said:

    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    I've seen mention but no specific identified reports, but OTOH i have not gone and looked very hard.
    There are two possible explanations for the international MAGA accounts.

    1. This is the Russians trying to influence US politics by signing up international trolls
    2. This is MAGA apparatchiks signing up international trolls

    It’s not impossible some of it is the latter. Whether that’s better or worse for US democracy I don’t know.

    Has anyone run the rule over “British” edgelord accounts?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,078
    TimS said:

    MattW said:

    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    I've seen mention but no specific identified reports, but OTOH i have not gone and looked very hard.
    There are two possible explanations for the international MAGA accounts.

    1. This is the Russians trying to influence US politics by signing up international trolls
    2. This is MAGA apparatchiks signing up international trolls

    It’s not impossible some of it is the latter. Whether that’s better or worse for US democracy I don’t know.

    Has anyone run the rule over “British” edgelord accounts?
    There’s also:

    3. People from poorer parts of the world trying to make money out of X payouts or directly out of US MAGAs via other means.

    (IIRC back in 2016 some of the biggest MAGA accounts were revealed to be Greek in origin.)

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    Exactly my thought.

    Are we really saying our politicians should be held to lesser standards than... lawyers and bankers ?
    Or we try to hold lawyers and bankers to higher standards because of the ample evidence that they are a bunch of crooks and cheats?
    I will not hear a word against TSE.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,304

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670
    Britain needs nuclear power. Our nuclear projects are the most expensive in the world and among the slowest. Regulators and industry are paralysed by risk aversion. This can change. For Britain to prosper, it must.

    Earlier this year, the Prime Minister appointed me to lead a Taskforce to set out a path to getting affordable, fast nuclear power Britain.

    Our final report today sets out 47 recommendations, among them:

    - Creating a one-stop shop for nuclear approvals, to end the regulatory merry-go-round that delays projects at the moment.
    - Simplifying environmental rules to avoid extreme outcomes like Hinkley Point C spending £700m on systems to protect one salmon every ten years, while enhancing nuclear's impact on nature.
    - Limiting the ability of spurious legal challenges to delay nuclear projects, which adds huge cost and delay throughout the supply chain.
    - Approving fleets of reactors, so that Britain’s nuclear industry can benefit from certainty and economies of scale.
    - Directing regulators to factor in cost to their behaviour, and changing their culture to allow building cheaply, quickly and safely.
    - Changing the culture of the nuclear industry to end gold-plating and focus on efficient, safe delivery.

    If the government adopts our report in full, it will send a signal to investors that it is serious about pro-growth reform and taking on vested interests for the public good.

    A thriving British nuclear industry producing abundant, affordable energy would be good for jobs, good for manufacturing, good for the climate, and good for the cost of living. And it could enable Britain to become an AI and technology superpower.

    Britain can be a world leader in this new Industrial Revolution, but only if it has the energy to power it.

    Our report is bold, but balanced. Our recommendations, taken together and properly implemented, will forge a clear path for stronger economic growth through improved productivity and innovation. This is a prize worth fighting for.


    https://gov.uk/government/publications/nuclear-regulatory-taskforce

    A shame they didn't do this a year ago, but it should indeed be adopted in full.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    edited 10:09AM
    Scooped by Phil
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,647

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,106
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    Exactly my thought.

    Are we really saying our politicians should be held to lesser standards than... lawyers and bankers ?
    Or we try to hold lawyers and bankers to higher standards because of the ample evidence that they are a bunch of crooks and cheats?
    I will not hear a word against TSE.
    Creep!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,532

    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    This is where we need Leon's TwiX expertise.
    The Soviets were very fond of using “active measures” during the Cold War to destabilise their enemies. The Soviets often took an agnostic, opportunistic approach to internal politics in target countries. Their goal was not to promote a coherent ideology everywhere, but to amplify whatever tensions already existed, regardless of political alignment, as long as it undermined their adversaries.

    The “active measures” they employed were dialectical. Ideologically agnostic. They wanted to exploit existing fractures. Not create new ones.

    There’s no reason to believe this strategy is any different now.
    Not just Russians either, there’s an awful lot of people from SE Asia and Africa who have been caught almost exclusively talking politics to Americans, apparently driven by purely commercial reasons that X is paying prolific and engaging commentators in dollars, which when you live in a place where $300/month is a great salary…

    Of course the most ‘engaging’ content tends to be at either extreme of the horse shoe of the policial opinion spectrum.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,106
    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
    Half, aka six months.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670
    Why are the fake news accounts overwhelmingly on the right?

    Macedonian teenagers in 2016 found that Trump supporters were the most gullible audience.

    "The American right, especially the emerging MAGA ecosystem, was simply a dream customer: highly engaged, highly inflamed, and extremely willing to click through to garbage sites that paid out ad revenue...It’s a niche where people are willing to follow a random, anonymous account and treat it as a trusted voice on everything from elections to vaccines to border security – boosting its content to their friends as well."

    https://x.com/RichardHanania/status/1992778917976101346

    Full piece here:
    https://agentsofinfluence.substack.com/p/on-the-internet-no-one-knows-youre
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,587
    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
    It’s taken 1.5 years for the inherent contradictions in a Labour Government to blow up so we have our yard-stick.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,882
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You forget the Trump approach of saying very little, denying what your opponents say and then doing what you want once elected
    No, I don't. What I do say is that the UK is not the USA. Six factors: our view of the rule of law, the balance of parliament and government, our disdain for One Man Rule and executive diktat, our non quasi religious mania about politicians, our social democratic history and our media. (And the voters of Clacton's fondness for free Zimmers).

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,094
    edited 10:19AM

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,339
    edited 10:21AM
    Phil said:

    TimS said:

    MattW said:

    Phil said:

    Now that Xitter is revealing the locations of various accounts, a swathe of cultural rightish accounts have been revealed to be be (in come cases quite sophisticated) Russian disinfo mills.

    Has anyone spotted equivalent leftish accounts who also turn out to be located in Eastern Europe / the Russian Federation? Russia is notorious for playing both sides of cultural conflicts in the countries they target.

    I've seen mention but no specific identified reports, but OTOH i have not gone and looked very hard.
    There are two possible explanations for the international MAGA accounts.

    1. This is the Russians trying to influence US politics by signing up international trolls
    2. This is MAGA apparatchiks signing up international trolls

    It’s not impossible some of it is the latter. Whether that’s better or worse for US democracy I don’t know.

    Has anyone run the rule over “British” edgelord accounts?
    There’s also:

    3. People from poorer parts of the world trying to make money out of X payouts or directly out of US MAGAs via other means.

    (IIRC back in 2016 some of the biggest MAGA accounts were revealed to be Greek in origin.)

    I have my VPN on Albania right now, and Twitter says my account is based there. Yet I have never been to Albania.

    All it has achieved is showing the world where my VPN is set to.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,882
    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
    UK MAGA? Nonsense. The inherent contradiction in a Reform government will arise out of wider and familiar issues: The contradiction of the voters of Clacton wanting low tax and free Zimmers; that of wanting a functioning NHS alongside disdain for non white migration; the contradiction of wanting a well defended Europe at high cost to the USA.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,851

    This week's budget has already been written off as the worst budget in my long lifetime by the worst Chancellor ever (Kwasi doesn't count - reign too short).

    However, unless I've missed it, the huge myriad of fatal missteps hasn't actually happened yet. It remains possible that Rachel surprises on the upside - not in the eyes of PBers, most of whom she has already lost, but in the eyes of those who would consider voting Labour at some point in the future. I wouldn't write off Rachel or Keir just yet. Though I may have a different view by Thursday.

    This is also an important budget for Kemi. She will be replying to the budget statement. She needs to show competence and take her party with her. By next May, with fewer small boats over the winter, and time for more embarrassments, Reform are likely to be less popular than now. I predict she will outlast Starmer.
    Kemi has the benefit of being able to attack the last month of shambles rather than having to think on her feet and address what is actually announced in the budget.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,339

    This week's budget has already been written off as the worst budget in my long lifetime by the worst Chancellor ever (Kwasi doesn't count - reign too short).

    However, unless I've missed it, the huge myriad of fatal missteps hasn't actually happened yet. It remains possible that Rachel surprises on the upside - not in the eyes of PBers, most of whom she has already lost, but in the eyes of those who would consider voting Labour at some point in the future. I wouldn't write off Rachel or Keir just yet. Though I may have a different view by Thursday.

    This is also an important budget for Kemi. She will be replying to the budget statement. She needs to show competence and take her party with her. By next May, with fewer small boats over the winter, and time for more embarrassments, Reform are likely to be less popular than now. I predict she will outlast Starmer.
    Kemi has the benefit of being able to attack the last month of shambles rather than having to think on her feet and address what is actually announced in the budget.
    Plus the "failed to tackle welfare spending" stick to beat Labour MPs with. Of course the response will be that it was all the Tories' fault in the first place.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    IanB2 said:



    This week's budget has already been written off as the worst budget in my long lifetime by the worst Chancellor ever (Kwasi doesn't count - reign too short).

    However, unless I've missed it, the huge myriad of fatal missteps hasn't actually happened yet. It remains possible that Rachel surprises on the upside - not in the eyes of PBers, most of whom she has already lost, but in the eyes of those who would consider voting Labour at some point in the future. I wouldn't write off Rachel or Keir just yet. Though I may have a different view by Thursday.

    This is also an important budget for Kemi. She will be replying to the budget statement. She needs to show competence and take her party with her. By next May, with fewer small boats over the winter, and time for more embarrassments, Reform are likely to be less popular than now. I predict she will outlast Starmer.
    Kemi has the benefit of being able to attack the last month of shambles rather than having to think on her feet and address what is actually announced in the budget.
    Plus the "failed to tackle welfare spending" stick to beat Labour MPs with. Of course the response will be that it was all the Tories' fault in the first place.
    The Tories introduced the 2 child welfare cap Reeves will scrap
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,851
    IanB2 said:



    This week's budget has already been written off as the worst budget in my long lifetime by the worst Chancellor ever (Kwasi doesn't count - reign too short).

    However, unless I've missed it, the huge myriad of fatal missteps hasn't actually happened yet. It remains possible that Rachel surprises on the upside - not in the eyes of PBers, most of whom she has already lost, but in the eyes of those who would consider voting Labour at some point in the future. I wouldn't write off Rachel or Keir just yet. Though I may have a different view by Thursday.

    This is also an important budget for Kemi. She will be replying to the budget statement. She needs to show competence and take her party with her. By next May, with fewer small boats over the winter, and time for more embarrassments, Reform are likely to be less popular than now. I predict she will outlast Starmer.
    Kemi has the benefit of being able to attack the last month of shambles rather than having to think on her feet and address what is actually announced in the budget.
    Plus the "failed to tackle welfare spending" stick to beat Labour MPs with. Of course the response will be that it was all the Tories' fault in the first place.
    If the two child cap is abolished, then she ought to go into studs-first on that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You forget the Trump approach of saying very little, denying what your opponents say and then doing what you want once elected
    No, I don't. What I do say is that the UK is not the USA. Six factors: our view of the rule of law, the balance of parliament and government, our disdain for One Man Rule and executive diktat, our non quasi religious mania about politicians, our social democratic history and our media. (And the voters of Clacton's fondness for free Zimmers).

    Though given New York has just elected a woke socialist Mayor, Clactor is now closer to Trumpland USA than it is to New York city
  • eekeek Posts: 32,023
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
    UK MAGA? Nonsense. The inherent contradiction in a Reform government will arise out of wider and familiar issues: The contradiction of the voters of Clacton wanting low tax and free Zimmers; that of wanting a functioning NHS alongside disdain for non white migration; the contradiction of wanting a well defended Europe at high cost to the USA.
    If Reform has 400+ MPs I suspect they will use them to vote through things in a way SKS utterly failed to do
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,431
    edited 10:29AM

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    It’s one of those loveable journalistic shorthands. Whenever there’s concern about debt repayments we are going “cap in hand” to the IMF. Who first decided the cap in hand term was the right one for these stories?

    It’s up there with some other favourites:

    - Brits / Britons deployed in specific contexts (Brits when the active subject, Britons when victims of a disaster or stuck abroad)
    - “Fury as…”
    - Romp
    - Boffins
    - Bosses (rail bosses, bank bosses, union bosses etc)
    - Sources close to
    - Police quiz [suspect]

    And so on.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,525
    edited 10:32AM
    I think Starmer will survive 2026 in spite of the Labour bloodbath next May.

    He won't resign. He thinks he is too important in managing Trump and protecting Ukraine.
    Although there may be 80+ Labour MPs willing to force a vote against him, there won't be 205+ Labour MPs prepared to actually vote against him. And his cabinet is not going to resign!

    Why is he so unpopular? I think it is massive disappointment by supporters in his lack of courage and clarity.
    It needs a fresh start. So I suspect McSweeney is for the chop after May, followed by a major reset of advisors and Cabinet. There is more upside than downside for Labour in the polls.

    I would lay 2026 as exit year for Starmer.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    edited 10:30AM
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    It is not too long since we had a Conservative leadership election dominated by admissions of drug-taking. Did anyone call for their removal from the Commons, or even change their votes? Watching perfectly legal tractor porn, on the other hand...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    edited 10:32AM

    IanB2 said:

    A few months ago, we were all saying how Your Party would be so damaging for Labour.

    If Sultana jumps to the Greens then it is all over I reckon.
    The 2 MPs who have recently left the party were her ideological opponents, suggesting she’s winning a battle for control…? If so, she’s not likely to jump to the Greens.
    Trouble is that, apart from not liking Starmer's government, and liking Israel's government even less, not much unites the Gaza Indies and funky young Corbynites.

    Or hypnoboobs and voters in Waveney Valley.
    Which is why it would be risky for the Greens to take on too many of them. Green Party policy is already 'sound', from a left perspective, on Gaza, but on social issues they are more 'woke', to use that vague and lazy term, than any other party.
    That was the genius of their positioning and presentation in 2024- really quite woke, but not enough to scare the horses in Ruralshire.

    Polanski has rather blown that up, in yet another tick in the "members shouldn't pick the leader" column.
    Yet Polanski has achieved record polling numbers for the party, and they’re doing well in by-elections too.
    The Greens lost a swing ward they held in Trafford last week to the Tories
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    edited 10:34AM

    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    It is not too long since we had a Conservative leadership election dominated by admissions of drug-taking. Did anyone call for their removal from the Commons, or even change their votes? Watching perfectly legal tractor porn, on the other hand...
    Indeed, any MP who has smoked cannabis or taken cocaine has also committed a criminal offence even if done only at university or when young, though watching adult porn at work is normally grounds for dismissal it is not a criminal act
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,647

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    It's just shorthand to wind up the Left about how crap their governance is.

    Going cap in hand to the IMF under the Tories - 0

    Going cap in hand to the IMF under Laour - 1
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,431
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,852

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,689

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    Exactly my thought.

    Are we really saying our politicians should be held to lesser standards than... lawyers and bankers ?
    Or we try to hold lawyers and bankers to higher standards because of the ample evidence that they are a bunch of crooks and cheats?
    I will not hear a word against TSE.
    Creep!
    Radiohead!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.

    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend...

    On that score, he's had a fairly free ride for his decade long public dabbling in far right conspiracy theory.

    Farage urged to explain conspiracy theories linked to antisemitism he voiced in US media

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/24/farage-urged-to-explain-conspiracy-theories-linked-to-antisemitism-he-voiced-in-us-media
    Nigel Farage is facing calls to explain why he repeatedly aired tropes and conspiracy theories associated with antisemitism during interviews, after claims the Reform UK leader used racist language in his teens.

    In appearances on US TV shows and podcasts earlier in his political career, Farage discussed supposed plots by bankers to create a global government, citing Goldman Sachs, the Bilderberg group and the financier George Soros as threats to democracy.

    These included six guest slots on the web TV show of the disgraced far-right US conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Jones was successfully sued by bereaved parents after claiming the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school massacre was faked.

    During one interview with Jones in 2018, Farage argued that “globalists” were trying to engineer a war with Russia “as an argument for us all to surrender our national sovereignty and give it up to a higher global level”.

    Farage also appeared six times on the web radio show of Rick Wiles, a far-right, antisemitic American pastor. Here, topics included whether central bankers would soon start to appoint leaders of the UK and US – an idea Farage did not challenge...
    As with the schoolboy stuff, who cares? Specifically, which Reform supporters will know who the flip Rick Wiles is and will also object to Farage having appeared on his show? Wait till the Guardian finds out Nige supported President Trump!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    edited 10:38AM

    eek said:

    Unless SKS resigns how exactly is he removed?

    Labour Rule Book - 2026:

    "Where there is no [leadership] vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void. The sitting Leader or Deputy Leader shall not be required to seek nominations in the event of a challenge under this rule."
    So about 80 Labour MPs would need to nominate a challenger to Starmer for him to face a leadership contest, a high bar unless the May local and devolved elections next year are abysmal for Labour. There is no mechanism for a VONC in a Labour leader by Labour MPs though under Labour rules as there is for Tory MPs to have a VONC in their leaders now under Tory rules
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,647

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    Exactly my thought.

    Are we really saying our politicians should be held to lesser standards than... lawyers and bankers ?
    Or we try to hold lawyers and bankers to higher standards because of the ample evidence that they are a bunch of crooks and cheats?
    I will not hear a word against TSE.
    Creep!
    Radiohead!
    Fake Plastic Trees News
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,469
    IanB2 said:

    Elon Musk’s Doge ‘no longer exists’ after contract ended early
    Tesla billionaire left White House in April after explosive fallout with Donald Trump and unit has now been disbanded

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/11/24/elon-musk-doge-no-longer-exists-contract-ended-early-usa/ (£££)

    Hopefully they've made a nice administrative saving by getting rid of all those unproductive jobs working in DOGE.
    I think people working in DOGE are at risk of prosecution, including possibly Musk. They aren't protected from their actions like the politicians are.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,094

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    It's just shorthand to wind up the Left about how crap their governance is.

    Going cap in hand to the IMF under the Tories - 0

    Going cap in hand to the IMF under Laour - 1
    I'll take that as a no then ;-)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    edited 10:42AM

    IanB2 said:

    On topic, I am about to win my bets that neither Starmer nor Badenoch would be replaced during 2025; the level of media chatter and political backroom plotting almost always over-estimates the likelihood of leaders being replaced, re-enforced by the Tories' recent efforts to make it an annual event as part of the summer 'season'. The 'no change' bet is typically at favourable odds since most punters who bet on those markets do so thinking they see a replacement coming.

    For 2026, however, I am less confident. I do suspect the bet on Starmer lasting the year is a more solid one than on Badenoch? Yet BFE has Starmer the more likely to go.

    Look at how long recent Conservative leaders have lasted, and compare that with the time left to the 2029 election to see if it is too soon for Kemi's would-be replacement to reach 2029 without being replaced themself.

    This millennium:-
    IDS 2 years
    Michael Howard 2 years
    Call Me Dave 11 years
    Theresa May 3 years
    Boris 3 years
    Liz Truss 7 weeks
    Rishi 2 years
    Kemi is nearing IDS and Howard and Rishi levels of tenure and is already long past Truss, she needs to have a good set of local elections next year with some Tory gains in London especially I think to avoid a VONC
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    The public has no right to know if ministers have criminal convictions, the government’s information watchdog has ruled.

    In a ruling published on November 12, the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) rejected an appeal by The Times to force the Cabinet Office to disclose how many ministers had declared a prior criminal conviction before taking office. Officials refused to confirm or deny whether it recorded this information, and the transparency regulator ruled that ministers’ right to privacy trumped the public’s right to know.

    The decision, which The Times intends to appeal against, comes after Louise Haigh’s failure to declare a fraud conviction led to her resignation as transport secretary last year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/ministers-criminal-records-can-stay-secret-rules-watchdog-xkvld6bnn

    Surely courts and criminal convictions are public records until deemed spent?
    But knowing whether Joe Bloggs done for shoplifting in 2012 is one and the same Joe Bloggs as Rt Hon J. Bloggs MP MInister for Prisons is a matter of personal data. Which is restricted. Maybe that is the logic?
    There are several licensed professions- law, finance etc- where a criminal conviction bars people from entering them at all, so even if we allow that a conviction should not bar an individual from public office, it is outrageous that the voters are not allowed to know that one individual or another has such a conviction. How can convicted criminals be allowed to make the law, either as a member of the legislature or as a minister if the people they supposedly serve are totally unaware of such a conflict of interest.
    I don't think it's a "conflict of interest". If it is, then it's also a conflict of interest that health ministers were born in NHS hospitals and education ministers often went to state schools. One can make a case that there is a public interest in whether a legislator has a criminal record of some sort, but I think you're rather abusing what "conflict of interest" means.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    In the Russian papers, much scepticism about the peace plan.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yVMVf2dZWA

    Steve Rosenberg's review of the Russian press (under 4 minutes).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705
    edited 10:47AM
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    There is some evidence French are more productive when they do work (and most Brits do have a lunch break if shorter than the French do) but that is still not enough for the French to overtake the UK and Germany and let alone the Americans and Australians on gdp per capita especially when you add in their frequent strikes too. The Poles also tend to work longer hours than the French do and also work when they are working without much gossip and faffing about like some Brits, hence the Poles surge in gdp per capita.

    Indeed by 2050 it might be Brits seeking free movement to Poland that gets us back into the EEA!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300
    Thanks for the maths, but the URL I gave has the figures, so you didn't need to back-calculate them! https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe has French and German spending per capita significantly higher than ours.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,388

    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
    Half, aka six months.
    You're very generous.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,133
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    It’s one of those loveable journalistic shorthands. Whenever there’s concern about debt repayments we are going “cap in hand” to the IMF. Who first decided the cap in hand term was the right one for these stories?

    It’s up there with some other favourites:

    - Brits / Britons deployed in specific contexts (Brits when the active subject, Britons when victims of a disaster or stuck abroad)
    - “Fury as…”
    - Romp
    - Boffins
    - Bosses (rail bosses, bank bosses, union bosses etc)
    - Sources close to
    - Police quiz [suspect]

    And so on.
    Increases to any particular tax are a "raid" on those impacted.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,878
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Unless SKS resigns how exactly is he removed?

    Labour Rule Book - 2026:

    "Where there is no [leadership] vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void. The sitting Leader or Deputy Leader shall not be required to seek nominations in the event of a challenge under this rule."
    So about 80 Labour MPs would need to nominate a challenger to Starmer for him to face a leadership contest, a high bar unless the May local and devolved elections next year are abysmal for Labour. There is no mechanism for a VONC in a Labour leader by Labour MPs though under Labour rules as there is for Tory MPs to have a VONC in their leaders now under Tory rules
    The bit I like, though I'm very doubtful it could happen in reality, is that a candidate can be nominated without their consent by their peers.

    I also seem to recall that the rules for getting to election after a nomination hits 20% are a bit messy and lacking, no particular set timetable, no particular rules on opening nominations to others for a period of time, and all to be decided by a Starmerite NEC.

    The most we have is the precedent of the Owen Smith challenge, and I think the only thing that might have changed since then is some of the link to conference season has been broken (though DYOR, if any such residual link remains then Q4 becomes a more attractive bet).
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,587
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    It’s one of those loveable journalistic shorthands. Whenever there’s concern about debt repayments we are going “cap in hand” to the IMF. Who first decided the cap in hand term was the right one for these stories?

    It’s up there with some other favourites:

    - Brits / Britons deployed in specific contexts (Brits when the active subject, Britons when victims of a disaster or stuck abroad)
    - “Fury as…”
    - Romp
    - Boffins
    - Bosses (rail bosses, bank bosses, union bosses etc)
    - Sources close to
    - Police quiz [suspect]

    And so on.
    Increases to any particular tax are a "raid" on those impacted.
    Or any benefit cut “targeting the vulnerable”
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,388
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    That's very interesting, you describe the way I work (except for the shorter hours & longer lunchbreaks). It's a surprise to find I have anything in common with French culture.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,006
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    There is some evidence French are more productive when they do work (and most Brits do have a lunch break if shorter than the French do) but that is still not enough for the French to overtake the UK and Germany and let alone the Americans and Australians on gdp per capita especially when you add in their frequent strikes too. The Poles also tend to work longer hours than the French do and also work when they are working without much gossip and faffing about like some Brits, hence the Poles surge in gdp per capita.

    Indeed by 2050 it might be Brits seeking free movement to Poland that gets us back into the EEA!
    In the long run productivity increase is about utilisation of new technology.

    It is possible UK will get game changing productivity in 2030s thanks to AI (which we wont be blocking with regulation like EU).

    Then again, we may just f*ck up as per normal.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,094

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,705

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    There is some evidence French are more productive when they do work (and most Brits do have a lunch break if shorter than the French do) but that is still not enough for the French to overtake the UK and Germany and let alone the Americans and Australians on gdp per capita especially when you add in their frequent strikes too. The Poles also tend to work longer hours than the French do and also work when they are working without much gossip and faffing about like some Brits, hence the Poles surge in gdp per capita.

    Indeed by 2050 it might be Brits seeking free movement to Poland that gets us back into the EEA!
    In the long run productivity increase is about utilisation of new technology.

    It is possible UK will get game changing productivity in 2030s thanks to AI (which we wont be blocking with regulation like EU).

    Then again, we may just f*ck up as per normal.
    Not much help to the average worker though if AI just removes entry level office jobs without creating new jobs to replace them
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,919
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    I thought productivity was more to do with the quality of infrastructure and job training, areas where the UK scores low,

    If it were all about working heads down for long hours many poor countries would very much richer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,874
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Unless SKS resigns how exactly is he removed?

    Labour Rule Book - 2026:

    "Where there is no [leadership] vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void. The sitting Leader or Deputy Leader shall not be required to seek nominations in the event of a challenge under this rule."
    Question: Under Labour's rules if X gets the 20% of MPs to nominate, then there is a contest for the leader. Is that contest just between the PM and X, or is there a system where others can join in, and if so what are the conditions (and timetable)?

    Sorry to be so ignorant.
    Shocking, not knowing the details of Labour's election rules. What is life about? But I think the position is that any Y also needs 20% of MPs, and has IIRC about 10 days to do it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,965

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,006
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    There is some evidence French are more productive when they do work (and most Brits do have a lunch break if shorter than the French do) but that is still not enough for the French to overtake the UK and Germany and let alone the Americans and Australians on gdp per capita especially when you add in their frequent strikes too. The Poles also tend to work longer hours than the French do and also work when they are working without much gossip and faffing about like some Brits, hence the Poles surge in gdp per capita.

    Indeed by 2050 it might be Brits seeking free movement to Poland that gets us back into the EEA!
    In the long run productivity increase is about utilisation of new technology.

    It is possible UK will get game changing productivity in 2030s thanks to AI (which we wont be blocking with regulation like EU).

    Then again, we may just f*ck up as per normal.
    Not much help to the average worker though if AI just removes entry level office jobs without creating new jobs to replace them
    Indeed. But the discussion was about productivity. Either people like Roger Bootle are going to be proved right and new jobs will appear as they have with other tech waves or we will have a massive societal problem.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300
    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    Ah, but compare the average French lunch to the average Polish lunch...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,532
    edited 11:07AM

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    2023 figures, Germany 11.7%, France 11.5%, UK 11.1% (2022). That 0.6% is quite significant.

    Also, the relevant figure is actual spend per capita, not %age of GDP. See https://www.health.org.uk/features-and-opinion/features/how-much-does-the-uk-spend-on-health-care-compared-to-europe Germany is spending over half as much again as we do. France is a quarter as much. If you want German or French health outcomes, spend more.
    We've got a higher gdp per capita, and are not far enough behind Germany for those to be coherent figures with the given 11.7, 11.5 and 11.1%s

    GDP per cap 2025 IMF Est (US $) / (PPP)

    Germany 59,993 / ($73,553)
    United Kingdom 56,661 ($63,759)
    France 49,961 ($66,061)

    Implied health spend per cap / adjusted for PPP

    Germany: $7000 / $8600
    UK: $6300 / $7100
    France: $5700 / $7300



    Remarkable that Poland is projected at over $55,000 GDP on a PPP basis.
    Not that much, compare the average Poles work ethic to the average French employees work ethic
    I’ve worked in French offices. It’s a very different experience to the UK.

    They do shorter hours and take longer lunch breaks (ie they actually take lunch breaks). But when they’re working they’re working. Heads down, silence, churning it out. We work longer with no lunch breaks but spend half the day faffing and the other half gossiping.

    One reason (not the only one, it’s also structural) why French productivity per hour of labour is so much higher than ours or indeed most developed countries.
    I thought productivity was more to do with the quality of infrastructure and job training, areas where the UK scores low,

    If it were all about working heads down for long hours many poor countries would very much richer.
    Productivity is output value per man-hour worked, so technology that allows more output improves the situation, as does the French model of taking a long break in the middle of the day but keeping your head down when working.

    Most poorer countries use labour as a substitute for technology, which is terrible for productivity. Ten men spending all day digging a hole with shovels, that could be done by one man in one hour using a machine, is probably the most obvious example.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 245

    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.

    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend...

    On that score, he's had a fairly free ride for his decade long public dabbling in far right conspiracy theory.

    Farage urged to explain conspiracy theories linked to antisemitism he voiced in US media

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/24/farage-urged-to-explain-conspiracy-theories-linked-to-antisemitism-he-voiced-in-us-media
    Nigel Farage is facing calls to explain why he repeatedly aired tropes and conspiracy theories associated with antisemitism during interviews, after claims the Reform UK leader used racist language in his teens.

    In appearances on US TV shows and podcasts earlier in his political career, Farage discussed supposed plots by bankers to create a global government, citing Goldman Sachs, the Bilderberg group and the financier George Soros as threats to democracy.

    These included six guest slots on the web TV show of the disgraced far-right US conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Jones was successfully sued by bereaved parents after claiming the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school massacre was faked.

    During one interview with Jones in 2018, Farage argued that “globalists” were trying to engineer a war with Russia “as an argument for us all to surrender our national sovereignty and give it up to a higher global level”.

    Farage also appeared six times on the web radio show of Rick Wiles, a far-right, antisemitic American pastor. Here, topics included whether central bankers would soon start to appoint leaders of the UK and US – an idea Farage did not challenge...
    As with the schoolboy stuff, who cares? Specifically, which Reform supporters will know who the flip Rick Wiles is and will also object to Farage having appeared on his show? Wait till the Guardian finds out Nige supported President Trump!
    Not so sure about the other conspiracy stuff but George Soros and the foundations he funds have fingers in many organisations who aim to influence many areas of American society and the wider world in what would be described as a 'Progressive' way. Globalist etc is never a word I would use because it is the language of the loon. But because a well known figure who uses his enormous wealth to influence the world around him is jewish (I assume) should not make him immune from criticism.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,580

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    I know Starmer and Reeves have been crap but I didn't realise they'd damaged the economy so much that electricians are now on zero hours and family credits.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,933

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Curiously recent IMF and Trump handouts to Milei also seemed to have passed many young(er) righties by.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670

    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    No prizes for guessing which side of the support base will get shafted in the event of a Reform government. Plus going large on culture and immigration to distract the low income Reform backers from how much the government will be shafting them.
    UK MAGA, effectively.

    I wonder how many years in government it will take for its inherent contradictions to blow it up ?
    It’s taken 1.5 years for the inherent contradictions in a Labour Government to blow up so we have our yard-stick.
    Reform are more of an explosive mix, IMO.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,852

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    I know Starmer and Reeves have been crap but I didn't realise they'd damaged the economy so much that electricians are now on zero hours and family credits.

    He was just trying to amp up his point.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    A friend is something of a polyglot. She gets annoyed with people online who are always looking for One Simple Trick to learn a language quickly. There's no such thing, she says. You just have to put the work in.

    I feel the same about healthcare policy. People want One Simple Trick to deliver better healthcare at less cost. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are plenty of small things you can do. The healthcare policy research literature is full of international comparisons and proposals, and the NHS is constantly looking at these, piloting schemes and making changes. But switching to, say, the German healthcare system isn't going to spectacularly change the underlying challenges: healthcare costs money and the population is ageing. The research suggests that, more or less, the different delivery systems across Europe don't make that much difference, but the amount you spend does.
    That's part of it.
    But cast an eye over Taiwan; they seem to be significantly more effective in delivering healthcare.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,094
    edited 11:12AM
    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,997

    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
    My memories of the Seventies are pretty good ones. My father was doing very well financially, and we had some wonderful holidays in Spain, Switzerland, Devon, Ireland, Brittany.

    My first political memory, as it were, was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We were in Kingsbridge, in South Devon, when suddenly, swarms of police descended on us, and the local traffic warden appeared, wearing white gloves. And, then, suddenly, was a motorcade, bearing the Queen and Prince Philip.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,647

    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
    Harold Wilson/James Callaghan caved to the unions. That led to the IMF in Downing Street. They were...checks notes...oh yes, Labour Prime Ministers....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,997
    @AnneJGP and @Roger many thanks.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,304

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Indeed, I was born in 1975. The irony of the UK IMF pogramme is that the UK didn't actually need it. It was based on economic data that were subsequently revised higher. The utility of the IMF of course is that it allows the government to do stuff that it knows to be necessary but doesn't want to take the blame for - those meanies from Washington made me do it! It provides market participants with some guarantee that things won't blow up and so allows the government to borrow more cheaply. There is too much stigma attached to IMF programmes IMHO.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    A friend is something of a polyglot. She gets annoyed with people online who are always looking for One Simple Trick to learn a language quickly. There's no such thing, she says. You just have to put the work in.

    I feel the same about healthcare policy. People want One Simple Trick to deliver better healthcare at less cost. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are plenty of small things you can do. The healthcare policy research literature is full of international comparisons and proposals, and the NHS is constantly looking at these, piloting schemes and making changes. But switching to, say, the German healthcare system isn't going to spectacularly change the underlying challenges: healthcare costs money and the population is ageing. The research suggests that, more or less, the different delivery systems across Europe don't make that much difference, but the amount you spend does.
    That's part of it.
    But cast an eye over Taiwan; they seem to be significantly more effective in delivering healthcare.
    Israel has competing NHS-alikes which might be a more palatable model for both sides of politics. Well, except for the whole Israel thing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    edited 11:34AM

    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.

    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend...

    On that score, he's had a fairly free ride for his decade long public dabbling in far right conspiracy theory.

    Farage urged to explain conspiracy theories linked to antisemitism he voiced in US media

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/24/farage-urged-to-explain-conspiracy-theories-linked-to-antisemitism-he-voiced-in-us-media
    Nigel Farage is facing calls to explain why he repeatedly aired tropes and conspiracy theories associated with antisemitism during interviews, after claims the Reform UK leader used racist language in his teens.

    In appearances on US TV shows and podcasts earlier in his political career, Farage discussed supposed plots by bankers to create a global government, citing Goldman Sachs, the Bilderberg group and the financier George Soros as threats to democracy.

    These included six guest slots on the web TV show of the disgraced far-right US conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Jones was successfully sued by bereaved parents after claiming the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school massacre was faked.

    During one interview with Jones in 2018, Farage argued that “globalists” were trying to engineer a war with Russia “as an argument for us all to surrender our national sovereignty and give it up to a higher global level”.

    Farage also appeared six times on the web radio show of Rick Wiles, a far-right, antisemitic American pastor. Here, topics included whether central bankers would soon start to appoint leaders of the UK and US – an idea Farage did not challenge...
    As with the schoolboy stuff, who cares? Specifically, which Reform supporters will know who the flip Rick Wiles is and will also object to Farage having appeared on his show? Wait till the Guardian finds out Nige supported President Trump!
    Not so sure about the other conspiracy stuff but George Soros and the foundations he funds have fingers in many organisations who aim to influence many areas of American society and the wider world in what would be described as a 'Progressive' way. Globalist etc is never a word I would use because it is the language of the loon. But because a well known figure who uses his enormous wealth to influence the world around him is jewish (I assume) should not make him immune from criticism.
    The whole US political system goes out of its way to make it easy for rich people to influence many areas of US policy and society: see Charles Koch, Sheldon Adelson, Elon Musk, Harlan Crow etc. on the right. And yet the one guy on the left, who is also Jewish, attracts outsized opprobrium.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,267
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    A few months ago, we were all saying how Your Party would be so damaging for Labour.

    If Sultana jumps to the Greens then it is all over I reckon.
    The 2 MPs who have recently left the party were her ideological opponents, suggesting she’s winning a battle for control…? If so, she’s not likely to jump to the Greens.
    Trouble is that, apart from not liking Starmer's government, and liking Israel's government even less, not much unites the Gaza Indies and funky young Corbynites.

    Or hypnoboobs and voters in Waveney Valley.
    Which is why it would be risky for the Greens to take on too many of them. Green Party policy is already 'sound', from a left perspective, on Gaza, but on social issues they are more 'woke', to use that vague and lazy term, than any other party.
    That was the genius of their positioning and presentation in 2024- really quite woke, but not enough to scare the horses in Ruralshire.

    Polanski has rather blown that up, in yet another tick in the "members shouldn't pick the leader" column.
    Yet Polanski has achieved record polling numbers for the party, and they’re doing well in by-elections too.
    The Greens lost a swing ward they held in Trafford last week to the Tories
    According to a relative of mine, who lives in Trafford, the Labour admin is very unpopular indeed and I suspect the middle-class voters in Hale have reverted to the Tories as the best way of registering a protest.

    I doubt it is much to do with Polanski or his radicalism as I don't really think that has percolated out to the voters yet.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    edited 11:33AM
    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    A friend is something of a polyglot. She gets annoyed with people online who are always looking for One Simple Trick to learn a language quickly. There's no such thing, she says. You just have to put the work in.

    I feel the same about healthcare policy. People want One Simple Trick to deliver better healthcare at less cost. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are plenty of small things you can do. The healthcare policy research literature is full of international comparisons and proposals, and the NHS is constantly looking at these, piloting schemes and making changes. But switching to, say, the German healthcare system isn't going to spectacularly change the underlying challenges: healthcare costs money and the population is ageing. The research suggests that, more or less, the different delivery systems across Europe don't make that much difference, but the amount you spend does.
    That's part of it.
    But cast an eye over Taiwan; they seem to be significantly more effective in delivering healthcare.
    Define "significantly".

    There is no One Simple Trick.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    I know Starmer and Reeves have been crap but I didn't realise they'd damaged the economy so much that electricians are now on zero hours and family credits.

    He was just trying to amp up his point.
    I'd expect there are lots of electricians on zero-hour contracts. The construction industry is quite odd in having a very long tail that actually lays bricks, runs pipes and plugs things in. These people who get their hands dirty will typically be self-employed or work for small firms where the boss gets the contracts then calls in his usual team who are on zero-hours contracts. (The main difference is who does the paperwork.)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,997

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Indeed, I was born in 1975. The irony of the UK IMF pogramme is that the UK didn't actually need it. It was based on economic data that were subsequently revised higher. The utility of the IMF of course is that it allows the government to do stuff that it knows to be necessary but doesn't want to take the blame for - those meanies from Washington made me do it! It provides market participants with some guarantee that things won't blow up and so allows the government to borrow more cheaply. There is too much stigma attached to IMF programmes IMHO.
    I've often wondered why the Unions went so completely over the top, in the Winter of 1978/9. Things were gradually improving, in the economy and Northern Ireland, from the start of 1976. 1975 was world communism's high water mark, and it was downhill from there. Labour might well have achieved re-election, without the self-defeating behaviour of trade union leaders.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,133

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Indeed, I was born in 1975. The irony of the UK IMF pogramme is that the UK didn't actually need it. It was based on economic data that were subsequently revised higher. The utility of the IMF of course is that it allows the government to do stuff that it knows to be necessary but doesn't want to take the blame for - those meanies from Washington made me do it! It provides market participants with some guarantee that things won't blow up and so allows the government to borrow more cheaply. There is too much stigma attached to IMF programmes IMHO.
    Perhaps if 'going cap in hand to' could be replaced with 'enlisting the help of'.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,023

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    Replacing something funded through taxes with something paid for per person by individuals will always benefit the richer and disbenefit the poorer.

    That doesn't make it wrong, and idealistic communism never happens as an alternative. But it's always the effect.
    Indeed, and the Reform voter profile these days covers both bases. Billionaire hedge fund manager and zero hours sparky on family credits.
    I know Starmer and Reeves have been crap but I didn't realise they'd damaged the economy so much that electricians are now on zero hours and family credits.

    He was just trying to amp up his point.
    I'd expect there are lots of electricians on zero-hour contracts. The construction industry is quite odd in having a very long tail that actually lays bricks, runs pipes and plugs things in. These people who get their hands dirty will typically be self-employed or work for small firms where the boss gets the contracts then calls in his usual team who are on zero-hours contracts. (The main difference is who does the paperwork.)
    They will be on CIS, work will appear and they will take it or not depending on how busy they currently are.

    But a sparky on universal credit is doing that for reasons - all the ones I know are beyond busy
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,988

    IanB2 said:



    This week's budget has already been written off as the worst budget in my long lifetime by the worst Chancellor ever (Kwasi doesn't count - reign too short).

    However, unless I've missed it, the huge myriad of fatal missteps hasn't actually happened yet. It remains possible that Rachel surprises on the upside - not in the eyes of PBers, most of whom she has already lost, but in the eyes of those who would consider voting Labour at some point in the future. I wouldn't write off Rachel or Keir just yet. Though I may have a different view by Thursday.

    This is also an important budget for Kemi. She will be replying to the budget statement. She needs to show competence and take her party with her. By next May, with fewer small boats over the winter, and time for more embarrassments, Reform are likely to be less popular than now. I predict she will outlast Starmer.
    Kemi has the benefit of being able to attack the last month of shambles rather than having to think on her feet and address what is actually announced in the budget.
    Plus the "failed to tackle welfare spending" stick to beat Labour MPs with. Of course the response will be that it was all the Tories' fault in the first place.
    If the two child cap is abolished, then she ought to go into studs-first on that.
    What have you got against Brits wanting to have more children? Shall we just import the people we want, bring their (non-limited) families and allow them to take advantage of tax payer funded benefits system?

    There must be some sort of rationale behind this comment.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Indeed, I was born in 1975. The irony of the UK IMF pogramme is that the UK didn't actually need it. It was based on economic data that were subsequently revised higher. The utility of the IMF of course is that it allows the government to do stuff that it knows to be necessary but doesn't want to take the blame for - those meanies from Washington made me do it! It provides market participants with some guarantee that things won't blow up and so allows the government to borrow more cheaply. There is too much stigma attached to IMF programmes IMHO.
    I'm not so sure. I dimly recall findings that countries that had taken IMF or World Bank loans ended up worse off because typically they were required to slash spending and throw everyone out of work – the measures ‘everyone knows to be necessary’ – which can be harmful in the long term.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,278
    In all the gloom of today here is a romantic story from history. At the siege of Badajoz in the Peninsula War two Spanish sisters came to a party of British soldiers for help. The younger sister called Juana Maria de Los Dolores de Leon was 14. Immediately Captain Harry Smith dashed forward and took her by the hand. A few days later they were married with Wellington himself giving her away. Many years later Smith was a Baronet and Governor of Cape Colony. He had a town named after him - Harrismith. They also named one after his wife - Ladysmith, scene of another siege.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    slade said:

    In all the gloom of today here is a romantic story from history. At the siege of Badajoz in the Peninsula War two Spanish sisters came to a party of British soldiers for help. The younger sister called Juana Maria de Los Dolores de Leon was 14. Immediately Captain Harry Smith dashed forward and took her by the hand. A few days later they were married with Wellington himself giving her away. Many years later Smith was a Baronet and Governor of Cape Colony. He had a town named after him - Harrismith. They also named one after his wife - Ladysmith, scene of another siege.

    Marrying 14 year olds is considered somewhat more problematic these days...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,900
    Vicious row as Tory chairman compares Nigel Farage's Reform UK to Nazis

    Kevin Hollinrake posted a picture of Adolf Hitler's Golden Party Badge in response to a tweet by Nigel Farage that included a golden Reform UK logo - sparking a furious backlash

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/vicious-row-tory-chairman-compares-36295048
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,042
    slade said:

    In all the gloom of today here is a romantic story from history. At the siege of Badajoz in the Peninsula War two Spanish sisters came to a party of British soldiers for help. The younger sister called Juana Maria de Los Dolores de Leon was 14. Immediately Captain Harry Smith dashed forward and took her by the hand. A few days later they were married with Wellington himself giving her away. Many years later Smith was a Baronet and Governor of Cape Colony. He had a town named after him - Harrismith. They also named one after his wife - Ladysmith, scene of another siege.

    14!!!!! Why did no one call the police?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,919
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Indeed, I was born in 1975. The irony of the UK IMF pogramme is that the UK didn't actually need it. It was based on economic data that were subsequently revised higher. The utility of the IMF of course is that it allows the government to do stuff that it knows to be necessary but doesn't want to take the blame for - those meanies from Washington made me do it! It provides market participants with some guarantee that things won't blow up and so allows the government to borrow more cheaply. There is too much stigma attached to IMF programmes IMHO.
    I've often wondered why the Unions went so completely over the top, in the Winter of 1978/9. Things were gradually improving, in the economy and Northern Ireland, from the start of 1976. 1975 was world communism's high water mark, and it was downhill from there. Labour might well have achieved re-election, without the self-defeating behaviour of trade union leaders.
    Perhaps Sean, they self-defeated on purpose. I've often suspected as much, although I have no direct evidence or even a particularly strong grasp of the history of the period.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,267
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    Indeed, I was born in 1975. The irony of the UK IMF pogramme is that the UK didn't actually need it. It was based on economic data that were subsequently revised higher. The utility of the IMF of course is that it allows the government to do stuff that it knows to be necessary but doesn't want to take the blame for - those meanies from Washington made me do it! It provides market participants with some guarantee that things won't blow up and so allows the government to borrow more cheaply. There is too much stigma attached to IMF programmes IMHO.
    I've often wondered why the Unions went so completely over the top, in the Winter of 1978/9. Things were gradually improving, in the economy and Northern Ireland, from the start of 1976. 1975 was world communism's high water mark, and it was downhill from there. Labour might well have achieved re-election, without the self-defeating behaviour of trade union leaders.
    It's a good point. I think the answer is hubris. They'd done for "In Place of Strife", they'd done for Ted Heath, and now they were doing for a Labour PM who was not toeing their line. They were the masters now.

    And then along came Mrs T.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,908
    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
    My memories of the Seventies are pretty good ones. My father was doing very well financially, and we had some wonderful holidays in Spain, Switzerland, Devon, Ireland, Brittany.

    My first political memory, as it were, was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We were in Kingsbridge, in South Devon, when suddenly, swarms of police descended on us, and the local traffic warden appeared, wearing white gloves. And, then, suddenly, was a motorcade, bearing the Queen and Prince Philip.
    My memory of that is a school trip to see the Queen....
    It was absolutely tipping it down, her motorcade drove straight past hundreds of kids waving plastic flags then we went back inside soaking wet to eat our packed lunch, mystery meat paste from memory. My low opinion of them hasn't changed much since then.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    A friend is something of a polyglot. She gets annoyed with people online who are always looking for One Simple Trick to learn a language quickly. There's no such thing, she says. You just have to put the work in.

    I feel the same about healthcare policy. People want One Simple Trick to deliver better healthcare at less cost. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are plenty of small things you can do. The healthcare policy research literature is full of international comparisons and proposals, and the NHS is constantly looking at these, piloting schemes and making changes. But switching to, say, the German healthcare system isn't going to spectacularly change the underlying challenges: healthcare costs money and the population is ageing. The research suggests that, more or less, the different delivery systems across Europe don't make that much difference, but the amount you spend does.
    That's part of it.
    But cast an eye over Taiwan; they seem to be significantly more effective in delivering healthcare.
    Define "significantly".

    There is no One Simple Trick.
    Like everyone else, they have a healthcare system, rather than "one simple trick".
    They just seem to run it rather well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Taiwan
    According to the Numbeo Health Care Index in 2025, Taiwan has the best healthcare system in the world, scoring 86.5 out of 100, a slight increase from 86 the previous year. This marked the seventh consecutive year that Taiwan has ranked first in the Numbeo Health Care Index.. The 2024 edition of the CEOWORLD Magazine Health Care Index also ranked Taiwan first among 110 countries surveyed, with a score of 78.72 out of 100.

    Their system isn't without its own problems, of course, but it's well worth looking at for how they brought in healthcare reform, and why it worked.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,570

    slade said:

    In all the gloom of today here is a romantic story from history. At the siege of Badajoz in the Peninsula War two Spanish sisters came to a party of British soldiers for help. The younger sister called Juana Maria de Los Dolores de Leon was 14. Immediately Captain Harry Smith dashed forward and took her by the hand. A few days later they were married with Wellington himself giving her away. Many years later Smith was a Baronet and Governor of Cape Colony. He had a town named after him - Harrismith. They also named one after his wife - Ladysmith, scene of another siege.

    Marrying 14 year olds is considered somewhat more problematic these days...
    At the time, the age of consent appears to have been 12 in both England and Spain
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670

    slade said:

    In all the gloom of today here is a romantic story from history. At the siege of Badajoz in the Peninsula War two Spanish sisters came to a party of British soldiers for help. The younger sister called Juana Maria de Los Dolores de Leon was 14. Immediately Captain Harry Smith dashed forward and took her by the hand. A few days later they were married with Wellington himself giving her away. Many years later Smith was a Baronet and Governor of Cape Colony. He had a town named after him - Harrismith. They also named one after his wife - Ladysmith, scene of another siege.

    Marrying 14 year olds is considered somewhat more problematic these days...
    So are mass rape and murder:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Badajoz_(1812)#Rampage
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,670

    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    A friend is something of a polyglot. She gets annoyed with people online who are always looking for One Simple Trick to learn a language quickly. There's no such thing, she says. You just have to put the work in.

    I feel the same about healthcare policy. People want One Simple Trick to deliver better healthcare at less cost. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are plenty of small things you can do. The healthcare policy research literature is full of international comparisons and proposals, and the NHS is constantly looking at these, piloting schemes and making changes. But switching to, say, the German healthcare system isn't going to spectacularly change the underlying challenges: healthcare costs money and the population is ageing. The research suggests that, more or less, the different delivery systems across Europe don't make that much difference, but the amount you spend does.
    That's part of it.
    But cast an eye over Taiwan; they seem to be significantly more effective in delivering healthcare.
    Israel has competing NHS-alikes which might be a more palatable model for both sides of politics. Well, except for the whole Israel thing.
    Taiwan competes/collaborates at the hospital level.
    They appear to share and adopt best practice far more effectively than do we.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,912
    Dopermean said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
    My memories of the Seventies are pretty good ones. My father was doing very well financially, and we had some wonderful holidays in Spain, Switzerland, Devon, Ireland, Brittany.

    My first political memory, as it were, was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We were in Kingsbridge, in South Devon, when suddenly, swarms of police descended on us, and the local traffic warden appeared, wearing white gloves. And, then, suddenly, was a motorcade, bearing the Queen and Prince Philip.
    My memory of that is a school trip to see the Queen....
    It was absolutely tipping it down, her motorcade drove straight past hundreds of kids waving plastic flags then we went back inside soaking wet to eat our packed lunch, mystery meat paste from memory. My low opinion of them hasn't changed much since then.
    I saw HRH at her Silver Jubilee visit to Derby.

    But I shall now think of you as a "Pussy Car, Pussy Cat". :smile:
  • eekeek Posts: 32,023
    Dopermean said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
    My memories of the Seventies are pretty good ones. My father was doing very well financially, and we had some wonderful holidays in Spain, Switzerland, Devon, Ireland, Brittany.

    My first political memory, as it were, was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We were in Kingsbridge, in South Devon, when suddenly, swarms of police descended on us, and the local traffic warden appeared, wearing white gloves. And, then, suddenly, was a motorcade, bearing the Queen and Prince Philip.
    My memory of that is a school trip to see the Queen....
    It was absolutely tipping it down, her motorcade drove straight past hundreds of kids waving plastic flags then we went back inside soaking wet to eat our packed lunch, mystery meat paste from memory. My low opinion of them hasn't changed much since then.
    And the Headmaster who was a closet Republican got several hundred new converts that day...

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,106
    Dopermean said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    I am no friend of Reform, but it is delusional to think they intend under any circumstances to stop the NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery.

    Reform, now that they have a chance of being elected, have shifted to the social democrat centre + mostly closed borders + nationalism. No-one has any chance at all of being elected without retaining the post WWII social democratic deal. Everyone tinkers with it; no-one has yet thought of an electable way of shifting it.
    You say this weekly, it doesn’t make it any more true. Reform model themselves on MAGA. MAGA also depend on the votes of poorer people on Govt-funded healthcare, but they’ve still slashed that healthcare. Reform will too.
    Farage cannot govern by executive order, he would need parliament to vote to get rid of the NHS.

    Given the rabble of malcontents 300 Reform MPs would be I cannot see that happening.

    The bigger threat to the NHS would be a financial crisis and crashed economy.
    How big an NHS will the IMF let us run?
    You keep suggesting we are going to be cap in hand to the IMF but wasn't that supposed to happen in the first 6 months of a Labour government?

    Perhaps a small punt on whether the UK has to seek help from the IMF before the next GE? £100 to a charity of the winner's choice?
    60-62 Spread price on age of posters talking about UK needing to go IMF.
    I'm bucking that trend then at 65.

    Tbf, most posters under 60 won't remember the IMF loan in 1976.
    I do.
    But then I do get reminded about it on here several times per day.
    I'm wondering whether it was really that much of a disaster anyway. Embarrassing maybe, but I can't remember it making much difference to our daily lives.

    The abiding memory of the 70s for me was the Three-Day Week and associated rolling power cuts. All caused by that crap governance under the Labour government led by... oh... Edward Heath.
    My memories of the Seventies are pretty good ones. My father was doing very well financially, and we had some wonderful holidays in Spain, Switzerland, Devon, Ireland, Brittany.

    My first political memory, as it were, was the Queen's Silver Jubilee. We were in Kingsbridge, in South Devon, when suddenly, swarms of police descended on us, and the local traffic warden appeared, wearing white gloves. And, then, suddenly, was a motorcade, bearing the Queen and Prince Philip.
    My memory of that is a school trip to see the Queen....
    It was absolutely tipping it down, her motorcade drove straight past hundreds of kids waving plastic flags then we went back inside soaking wet to eat our packed lunch, mystery meat paste from memory. My low opinion of them hasn't changed much since then.
    My memories of the seventies..... Hmmmm. My children were doing reasonably well at school; eldest son got the apprenticeship he wanted at the end of the decade, daughter met the man..... well, a youth then ...... she went on to marry and younger son failed the 11+...... only two boys per primary school 'allowed' to pass to the neighbouring authority's two Grammar Schools, and on the day of the exam he had a cold! I didn't mind too much but it rankled with him for years!
    Early in the decade the firm I was with was doing quite well, but later I managed to make a few bad decisions which cost us dear.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,139
    edited 12:11PM
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    Ratters said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Get rid, he's useless.

    General Election now, and here's the winner. He has some super new plans for the NHS that I think all his voters are going to love.

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DO9Sd1MDR1H/?igsh=azFwZWdhcHp1Z2xz

    Unfortunately I think UK insurance companies have more in common with those in the USA than with those in Europe. An insurance-based system does seem to work in Europe and my perception is that it's because the companies aren't out to screw the customer for every last penny.
    I was being mischievous. I very much doubt the average Reform voters has any clue that their healthcare could cost them £420 a month.

    This guy is getting away with blue murder and very few are calling him out. I am particularly disappointed with the Conservatives, they seem to look upon this outrageous clown as a friend and ally on the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
    How much do you think the NHS costs the average Reform voter at the moment? And is that good value for money?
    We spend a very similar percentage of GDP as European peers such as Germany and France.

    But the median age in those countries is higher than the UK. And health outcomes can be debated, but we're certainly not an obvious leader of the pack.

    I think both sides could do with accepting that the NHS isn't as amazing or awful as some imagine.

    The US system, by contrast, is objectively awful. Extremely high cost and worse outcomes at an aggregate level.

    I imagine there's lots we could learn from where some European nations deliver better value for money than us.
    A friend is something of a polyglot. She gets annoyed with people online who are always looking for One Simple Trick to learn a language quickly. There's no such thing, she says. You just have to put the work in.

    I feel the same about healthcare policy. People want One Simple Trick to deliver better healthcare at less cost. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are plenty of small things you can do. The healthcare policy research literature is full of international comparisons and proposals, and the NHS is constantly looking at these, piloting schemes and making changes. But switching to, say, the German healthcare system isn't going to spectacularly change the underlying challenges: healthcare costs money and the population is ageing. The research suggests that, more or less, the different delivery systems across Europe don't make that much difference, but the amount you spend does.
    That's part of it.
    But cast an eye over Taiwan; they seem to be significantly more effective in delivering healthcare.
    Define "significantly".

    There is no One Simple Trick.
    Like everyone else, they have a healthcare system, rather than "one simple trick".
    They just seem to run it rather well.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Taiwan
    According to the Numbeo Health Care Index in 2025, Taiwan has the best healthcare system in the world, scoring 86.5 out of 100, a slight increase from 86 the previous year. This marked the seventh consecutive year that Taiwan has ranked first in the Numbeo Health Care Index.. The 2024 edition of the CEOWORLD Magazine Health Care Index also ranked Taiwan first among 110 countries surveyed, with a score of 78.72 out of 100.

    Their system isn't without its own problems, of course, but it's well worth looking at for how they brought in healthcare reform, and why it worked.
    I’m all for looking at other countries’ healthcare systems, which is what academics, think tanks and government employees do all the time.

    Taiwan has a good healthcare system, but one that faces similar problems to our. Here’s Hsu & Lin (2024) in The Lancet:

    “However, this remarkable example of universal health care is plagued by several issues that are worsening daily, including budgetary issues, a hostile work environment, and a low retention rate of doctors and nurses. Multiple reasons have resulted in the Taiwanese health-care system being on the brink of a crisis.”

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01502-2/fulltext
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