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This can be classed as a bona fide Brexit dividend – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,745
edited October 22 in General
This can be classed as a bona fide Brexit dividend – politicalbetting.com

Despite significant negativity towards the EU in some member states, support for leaving remains limitedFrance: 27% would vote to leave EUItaly: 27%Poland: 26%Romania: 20%Netherlands: 20%Germany: 17%Spain: 14%Denmark: 13%Lithuania: 11%yougov.co.uk/internationa…

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  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,462
    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903
    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,390
    FPT
    Scott_xP said:

    @mjsdc.bsky.social‬

    This lawsuit, which demands that the House of Representatives finally seat Rep. Adelita Grijalva, has, um, fairly major implications for our democracy's survival in 2026 and beyond.

    https://bsky.app/profile/mjsdc.bsky.social/post/3m3qe76xvwc2z

    It makes, in a great deal more detail, similar points to the ones I raised.

    "..The Speaker may not use his statutory obligation to administer the oath under 2
    U.S.C. § 25 to arbitrarily delay seating a member when there is no dispute as to the election or
    qualifications and no practical reason why he is unable to administer the oath..."
    "...The question of whether an individual has a right to a House seat, and whether the
    House is wrongfully denying that person admission, is justiciable and is not a political question.
    Powell, 395 U.S. at 548..."

    "..It is a constitutional qualification for office that a member take the oath of office
    before assuming office. U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3 (“The … Representatives … shall be bound by
    Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.”)..."
    "36. The Constitution provides neither the language of the oath nor any requirements as
    to who must administer it.
    37. One statute, 5 U.S.C. § 3331, gives the language of the oath, but does not specify
    how it is to be administered.
    38. A second statute, 2 U.S.C. § 25, describes the procedure for swearing in the Speaker
    and members-elect.
    39. Per that process, “any Member of the House of Representatives” swears in the
    Speaker upon the Speaker’s election. The Speaker then swears in the members-elect. But the
    individual who swears in the Speaker (usually the Dean of the House) has not yet been sworn for
    that Congress, and so is at that time a member-elect, establishing that non-members of the House
    may and do constitutionally administer the oath.
    40. Nothing in 2 U.S.C. § 25 makes the administration of the oath discretionary on the
    part of the Speaker..."

    Note that there is no practicable way to change the constitution before the midterms.
    The procedures for seating House members are set out in statutory law (see above). To make any change to that would (along with the Senate and Presidential conformation) require the House to come back in session. And in any event, there will be at least a handful of GOP members who would stop short of the kind of insanity we're talking about.

    So while on the one hand, this is a democratic outrage, on the other it does not in itself provide a route for preventing a Democratic majority Congress seating itself in January 2027.


  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,676
    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    Are you not comparing a number with don't know excluded to one where it is included there? (Though I think your point is broadly sound - the reason an in/out referendum was proposed was because it was assumed it would be won easily for "in".)
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903
    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    No, it hasn’t. But what does that have to do with my post?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,390
    Do we have a series of these polls going back, so that we can see how much opinion has shifted over the last decade ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,089
    I thought a judge can swear in members of congress?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,462
    Better news on inflation this morning (or should that be less bad?).

    Interesting to see how inflation has changed in different areas - the problem with grocery inflation is everyone notices it because we all have to eat (whether at home, Claridge's or the Cafe in the Barking Road) and some of the price changes have been dramatic.

    Fuel on the other hand is, I believe, much closer to where it was and may even continue to fall as demand slackens .

    Swing meet roundabout. As others have said, the return of a more normal monetary policy after years of artificially low interest rates along with the post-Covid inflationary splurge (which was foreseeable and could have been mitigated but wasn't) has impacted Governments and governed alike and whatever the stripe of the Government, it's been affected.

    We may all want a return to the days of cheap food, cheap fuel, cheap money and endlessly rising asset values but those days are gone now and the new economic reality is a lot less pleasant for most of us.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,165
    Nigelb said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @mjsdc.bsky.social‬

    This lawsuit, which demands that the House of Representatives finally seat Rep. Adelita Grijalva, has, um, fairly major implications for our democracy's survival in 2026 and beyond.

    https://bsky.app/profile/mjsdc.bsky.social/post/3m3qe76xvwc2z

    It makes, in a great deal more detail, similar points to the ones I raised.

    "..The Speaker may not use his statutory obligation to administer the oath under 2
    U.S.C. § 25 to arbitrarily delay seating a member when there is no dispute as to the election or
    qualifications and no practical reason why he is unable to administer the oath..."
    "...The question of whether an individual has a right to a House seat, and whether the
    House is wrongfully denying that person admission, is justiciable and is not a political question.
    Powell, 395 U.S. at 548..."

    "..It is a constitutional qualification for office that a member take the oath of office
    before assuming office. U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3 (“The … Representatives … shall be bound by
    Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.”)..."
    "36. The Constitution provides neither the language of the oath nor any requirements as
    to who must administer it.
    37. One statute, 5 U.S.C. § 3331, gives the language of the oath, but does not specify
    how it is to be administered.
    38. A second statute, 2 U.S.C. § 25, describes the procedure for swearing in the Speaker
    and members-elect.
    39. Per that process, “any Member of the House of Representatives” swears in the
    Speaker upon the Speaker’s election. The Speaker then swears in the members-elect. But the
    individual who swears in the Speaker (usually the Dean of the House) has not yet been sworn for
    that Congress, and so is at that time a member-elect, establishing that non-members of the House
    may and do constitutionally administer the oath.
    40. Nothing in 2 U.S.C. § 25 makes the administration of the oath discretionary on the
    part of the Speaker..."

    Note that there is no practicable way to change the constitution before the midterms.
    The procedures for seating House members are set out in statutory law (see above). To make any change to that would (along with the Senate and Presidential conformation) require the House to come back in session. And in any event, there will be at least a handful of GOP members who would stop short of the kind of insanity we're talking about.

    So while on the one hand, this is a democratic outrage, on the other it does not in itself provide a route for preventing a Democratic majority Congress seating itself in January 2027.


    But it does still require the judiciary not to do the executive's bidding. Not exactly sanguine on that...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,688
    Nigelb said:

    Do we have a series of these polls going back, so that we can see how much opinion has shifted over the last decade ?

    It would be hard to separate the Brexit effect from the Putin effect, and more latterly the Trump effect.

    All 3 make European Unity more appealing.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903
    edited October 22

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    Are you not comparing a number with don't know excluded to one where it is included there? (Though I think your point is broadly sound - the reason an in/out referendum was proposed was because it was assumed it would be won easily for "in".)
    Not deliberately. I was trying to do the opposite. I think the British “don’t know excluded” Remain vote was 60% before the campaign wasn’t it? So I’m 95% sure we’d have been over 49% of all voters.

    My real point is that the likes of Putin haven’t really tried to interfere on these numbers yet as there’s no obvious route to a vote that can be influenced.

    I might have wanted Brexit but I fully accept Putin did too, and feel dirty that he helped*. If I was him, looking at these numbers, I’d see fertile ground.

    *And irritated that the EU decided to help cause the division afterwards rather than help us pour oil on the waters - it took Russian over reach in Ukraine to pull us back together, but our alliance really could have crumbled.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,676
    Nigelb said:

    So while on the one hand, this is a democratic outrage, on the other it does not in itself provide a route for preventing a Democratic majority Congress seating itself in January 2027.

    You're making the mistake of thinking about this in narrowly legalistic terms.

    The precedent set is that there is a democratic outrage - not swearing in an elected member - and there is very little pushback on it. Certainly no-one on the GOP side appears to have any qualms about it.

    It makes ignoring elections simply part of how politics is done in America now, a normal part of the partisan struggle. When there is an affront to democracy in the midterms it will be easier for the public to shrug it off as just one of those political arguments in Washington that they are tired of, rather than an end to their ability to get rid of politicians they don't like.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,287
    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    Because the British example has been taken as showing that "yes, the EU is annoying in many ways, but it's still worth it."

    In that sense, it's like any other real long-term relationship with another real person (as opposed to an AI avatar, or someone rented by the minute or regular traded in for a younger, hotter version.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,390
    edited October 22
    Nigelb said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @mjsdc.bsky.social‬

    This lawsuit, which demands that the House of Representatives finally seat Rep. Adelita Grijalva, has, um, fairly major implications for our democracy's survival in 2026 and beyond.

    https://bsky.app/profile/mjsdc.bsky.social/post/3m3qe76xvwc2z

    It makes, in a great deal more detail, similar points to the ones I raised.

    "..The Speaker may not use his statutory obligation to administer the oath under 2
    U.S.C. § 25 to arbitrarily delay seating a member when there is no dispute as to the election or
    qualifications and no practical reason why he is unable to administer the oath..."
    "...The question of whether an individual has a right to a House seat, and whether the
    House is wrongfully denying that person admission, is justiciable and is not a political question.
    Powell, 395 U.S. at 548..."

    "..It is a constitutional qualification for office that a member take the oath of office
    before assuming office. U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3 (“The … Representatives … shall be bound by
    Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.”)..."
    "36. The Constitution provides neither the language of the oath nor any requirements as
    to who must administer it.
    37. One statute, 5 U.S.C. § 3331, gives the language of the oath, but does not specify
    how it is to be administered.
    38. A second statute, 2 U.S.C. § 25, describes the procedure for swearing in the Speaker
    and members-elect.
    39. Per that process, “any Member of the House of Representatives” swears in the
    Speaker upon the Speaker’s election. The Speaker then swears in the members-elect. But the
    individual who swears in the Speaker (usually the Dean of the House) has not yet been sworn for
    that Congress, and so is at that time a member-elect, establishing that non-members of the House
    may and do constitutionally administer the oath.
    40. Nothing in 2 U.S.C. § 25 makes the administration of the oath discretionary on the
    part of the Speaker..."

    Note that there is no practicable way to change the constitution before the midterms.
    The procedures for seating House members are set out in statutory law (see above). To make any change to that would (along with the Senate and Presidential conformation) require the House to come back in session. And in any event, there will be at least a handful of GOP members who would stop short of the kind of insanity we're talking about.

    So while on the one hand, this is a democratic outrage, on the other it does not in itself provide a route for preventing a Democratic majority Congress seating itself in January 2027.


    Conversely, it does provide a clear template for dealing with MAGA fuckery.

    ..Because there is no dispute as to Ms. Grijalva’s election or qualifications, the Court should:
    A. Issue a declaratory judgment stating that Ms. Grijalva shall be deemed a Member
    of the House of Representatives once she has taken the oath prescribed by law, see 5 U.S.C. § 3331;
    B. Issue a declaratory judgment stating that if Speaker Johnson has not administered
    the oath, the oath may be administered to Ms. Grijalva by any person authorized by law to
    administer oaths under the law of the United States, the District of Columbia, or the State of
    Arizona


    That would be very similar to the form of request to a court made by a Democratic majority in the midterms.
    I don't think there would be a majority, even on the current Supreme Court, who would overturn the constitution in order to deny this.

    The bigger danger is what Trump and his lawless administration might so by exercise of executive power.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,827
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,684
    It’s a good morning. Any morning when Russia is on fire, is a good morning.

    It also looks like the Ukranians are taking more territory around Pokrovsk, and even the Russian newspapers are now running stories of economic “difficulties”.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,120
    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,438
    edited October 22
    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903
    edited October 22

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    Because the British example has been taken as showing that "yes, the EU is annoying in many ways, but it's still worth it."

    In that sense, it's like any other real long-term relationship with another real person (as opposed to an AI avatar, or someone rented by the minute or regular traded in for a younger, hotter version.)
    For quite a lot of EU countries, it’s a no brainer. None of our principled sovereignty arguments really apply if you’re, say, Belgium, and intra-EU immigration looks very different to most of them that it did to us with how we ran our economy. Lastly, extra-EU immigration will inevitably get dealt with now by the Commission.

    Which is all the more reason why a low score of 49% in France and Italy should be a concern.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,287

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    And the good that about that period is that it was otherwise so economically stable that there’s no noise at all in the numbers.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,397

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    Except they predicted the recession would happen immediately after a Leave vote.

    And without a simultaneous worldwide pandemic.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    I think the British public will reject this guff. As a nation we tend to like things to be fair, and changing the rules after the fact to the detriment of those who have “paid in” is not fair.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,120
    stodge said:

    Better news on inflation this morning (or should that be less bad?).

    Interesting to see how inflation has changed in different areas - the problem with grocery inflation is everyone notices it because we all have to eat (whether at home, Claridge's or the Cafe in the Barking Road) and some of the price changes have been dramatic.

    Fuel on the other hand is, I believe, much closer to where it was and may even continue to fall as demand slackens .

    Swing meet roundabout. As others have said, the return of a more normal monetary policy after years of artificially low interest rates along with the post-Covid inflationary splurge (which was foreseeable and could have been mitigated but wasn't) has impacted Governments and governed alike and whatever the stripe of the Government, it's been affected.
    .

    I remember, back when we appeared to be on the edge of deflation, predicting the coming inflationary surge on here, and being told I was talking nonsense including by PB’s well-known anti-sage. At the time I was tipping index-linked gilts, which for a year or two thereafter provided to be a very solid investment.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,120
    biggles said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    I think the British public will reject this guff. As a nation we tend to like things to be fair, and changing the rules after the fact to the detriment of those who have “paid in” is not fair.
    And support from the knee-jerk brigade will last only up until the first human interest story hits the media of an actual British family forcibly deported ‘back’ abroad…..
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903
    edited October 22

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    Except they predicted the recession would happen immediately after a Leave vote.

    And without a simultaneous worldwide pandemic.
    I will be annoyed if they were right about WW3, mind….
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    So she would have deported her own grandfather as well as my mother?

    I said I would never join the Lib Dems but between Katie Lam and Robert Jenrick I might just have to.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,397
    Re nimbyism and the proposed Rotherham solar farm.

    I get the impression that locals think that after a century of coal mining its now regarded as another part of the country's (ie the South) turn to have its environment disrupted to provide energy for the nation.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,903
    IanB2 said:

    biggles said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    I think the British public will reject this guff. As a nation we tend to like things to be fair, and changing the rules after the fact to the detriment of those who have “paid in” is not fair.
    And support from the knee-jerk brigade will last only up until the first human interest story hits the media of an actual British family forcibly deported ‘back’ abroad…..
    Not to mention other nations doing this reciprocally to British pensioners.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,598
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @mjsdc.bsky.social‬

    This lawsuit, which demands that the House of Representatives finally seat Rep. Adelita Grijalva, has, um, fairly major implications for our democracy's survival in 2026 and beyond.

    https://bsky.app/profile/mjsdc.bsky.social/post/3m3qe76xvwc2z

    It makes, in a great deal more detail, similar points to the ones I raised.

    "..The Speaker may not use his statutory obligation to administer the oath under 2
    U.S.C. § 25 to arbitrarily delay seating a member when there is no dispute as to the election or
    qualifications and no practical reason why he is unable to administer the oath..."
    "...The question of whether an individual has a right to a House seat, and whether the
    House is wrongfully denying that person admission, is justiciable and is not a political question.
    Powell, 395 U.S. at 548..."

    "..It is a constitutional qualification for office that a member take the oath of office
    before assuming office. U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3 (“The … Representatives … shall be bound by
    Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.”)..."
    "36. The Constitution provides neither the language of the oath nor any requirements as
    to who must administer it.
    37. One statute, 5 U.S.C. § 3331, gives the language of the oath, but does not specify
    how it is to be administered.
    38. A second statute, 2 U.S.C. § 25, describes the procedure for swearing in the Speaker
    and members-elect.
    39. Per that process, “any Member of the House of Representatives” swears in the
    Speaker upon the Speaker’s election. The Speaker then swears in the members-elect. But the
    individual who swears in the Speaker (usually the Dean of the House) has not yet been sworn for
    that Congress, and so is at that time a member-elect, establishing that non-members of the House
    may and do constitutionally administer the oath.
    40. Nothing in 2 U.S.C. § 25 makes the administration of the oath discretionary on the
    part of the Speaker..."

    Note that there is no practicable way to change the constitution before the midterms.
    The procedures for seating House members are set out in statutory law (see above). To make any change to that would (along with the Senate and Presidential conformation) require the House to come back in session. And in any event, there will be at least a handful of GOP members who would stop short of the kind of insanity we're talking about.

    So while on the one hand, this is a democratic outrage, on the other it does not in itself provide a route for preventing a Democratic majority Congress seating itself in January 2027.


    Conversely, it does provide a clear template for dealing with MAGA fuckery.

    ..Because there is no dispute as to Ms. Grijalva’s election or qualifications, the Court should:
    A. Issue a declaratory judgment stating that Ms. Grijalva shall be deemed a Member
    of the House of Representatives once she has taken the oath prescribed by law, see 5 U.S.C. § 3331;
    B. Issue a declaratory judgment stating that if Speaker Johnson has not administered
    the oath, the oath may be administered to Ms. Grijalva by any person authorized by law to
    administer oaths under the law of the United States, the District of Columbia, or the State of
    Arizona


    That would be very similar to the form of request to a court made by a Democratic majority in the midterms.
    I don't think there would be a majority, even on the current Supreme Court, who would overturn the constitution in order to deny this.

    The bigger danger is what Trump and his lawless administration might so by exercise of executive power.
    We already know Speaker Johnson has proven himself a spineless weasel, whose only role is to prevent the release of the Epstein files. If she can be sworn in and he can't prevent it, what use is he?

    That's a cheery thought to start the day
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,598
    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    You mean they were wrong about something? Wow, that almost never always happens...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,598
    @skynewsniall

    "The biggest story in economics" - could we be heading for an AI bubble similar to the dotcom crash of the 90s/2000s? Some fun listening on your way to work courtesy of
    @EdConwaySky

    https://x.com/skynewsniall/status/1980895102932512839
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,390
    .

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    Disturbing, if that's the case,
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,841
    edited October 22
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Do we have a series of these polls going back, so that we can see how much opinion has shifted over the last decade ?

    It would be hard to separate the Brexit effect from the Putin effect, and more latterly the Trump effect.

    All 3 make European Unity more appealing.
    My recollection is that the various 'Let's Leave' movement around the EU went a bit quiet when we opted out. Putin/Trump etc reinforced the trend, as did the increasingly obvious indicators of the economic harm Brexit did.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,676
    The only objective for the Tories at the next election is to hang on to second place as the leading party to the right of Labour.

    They will say anything and do anything to achieve that goal. If they achieve it then Farage will be 70 by the time of the general election afterwards (in 2034), and the Tories can reasonably hope that FPTP will make them the main choice for voters wishing to be rid of Labour.

    The danger is that this strategy is doomed to failure, and all they're achieving is to make BNP policy more widely acceptable to Reform's benefit. No-one will believe that the Tories will reverse the immigration that happened when they were in government.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,676
    Looks like today might be the day of the Gripen.

    Zelensky is meeting the Swedish Prime Minister in Linkoping, home to SAAB, the manufacturer of Gripen jets.
  • The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,116

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    So she would have deported her own grandfather as well as my mother?

    I said I would never join the Lib Dems but between Katie Lam and Robert Jenrick I might just have to.
    If the goal is to create a culturally coherent country can we please deport people who support this policy? I don't recognize any cultural affinity with this kind of racist guff.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,116

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Absolutely, we did the rest of the EU a massive favour. Given the rise of global bullies like Trump, Putin and Xi I don't think anyone else in Europe would want to be as lonely as we are right now.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,841
    edited October 22

    The only objective for the Tories at the next election is to hang on to second place as the leading party to the right of Labour.

    They will say anything and do anything to achieve that goal. If they achieve it then Farage will be 70 by the time of the general election afterwards (in 2034), and the Tories can reasonably hope that FPTP will make them the main choice for voters wishing to be rid of Labour.

    The danger is that this strategy is doomed to failure, and all they're achieving is to make BNP policy more widely acceptable to Reform's benefit. No-one will believe that the Tories will reverse the immigration that happened when they were in government.

    The next election is a long way off and I am placing no bets but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the two Parties that have dominated politics throughout my lifetime will finish in fourth and fifth place in vote share. Goodness knows what that would mean in seats under FPTP. Could be anything.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,705
    Nigelb said:

    .

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    Disturbing, if that's the case,
    WRT Lam, who seems appalling and should know better, there are tactical and electoral issues down the line, even with betting implications, even as she seeks the deportation of my eye specialist and the German who plays the Last Post at our Remembrance Sunday service.

    Once upon a time the LDs were the party who could go either way, and would possibly sustain either a Tory or a Labour government. Almost certainly now they would support a Labour but not a Tory (and a fortiori Reform) one.

    The seesaw now belongs to the Tories, who are about 20/1 to be forming the next government. A key question for former and non Reform Tories - there are millions of them - is who would Tories support if the GE were finely balanced?

    So far it looks as if a Tory vote is a Reform vote.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,390

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Mayne we could remind them of that when we reapply.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,462

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    There speaks a loyal Conservative.

    The Conservatives clearly aren't "dead" but they aren't well - look at the results in Surrey last week. Towns like Caterham and Whyteleafe were once strongholds of the party - now, it's not just they are a close second to the LDs, they are a poor third .

    Yes, you can be as waspish about the LDs as you like but in their historical context, 72 seats is a success, albeit for the most part built on the Conservative Party's collapse (but you can say the same about Labour, Reform and Green - we are all picking over the corpse of a once formidable electoral winning machine).

    It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    As the cobbler would tell you, time wounds all heels and in a couple of decades, there may be an opportunity for a "new" Conservative Party, predicated on the old principles of one nation Conservatism, to emerge and in all probability return to Government but that requires a clearout of augean proportions both of who are in the Party now and of their half-baked thinking.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,866
    edited October 22
    How come "culturally coherent" hasn't been called out as anti-Semitic?
    Because it won't stop at the dog whistled group that's for sure. Just as wishing to deport illegal law breakers wasn't quite enough for many.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,662
    On topic: Stockholm Syndrome prevalent across Europe.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,462
    The weekly nonsense from More In Common:

    REFORM 31% (+1)
    LABOUR 22% (nc)
    CONSERVATIVE 19% (-1)
    LIBERAL DEMOCRATS 13% (-2)
    GREEN 10% (+1)
    SNP 2% (-1)
    OTHERS: 2% (nc)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,426

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    And if there hadn’t been all the political stuff we wouldn’t have left
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,528
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT

    Scott_xP said:

    @mjsdc.bsky.social‬

    This lawsuit, which demands that the House of Representatives finally seat Rep. Adelita Grijalva, has, um, fairly major implications for our democracy's survival in 2026 and beyond.

    https://bsky.app/profile/mjsdc.bsky.social/post/3m3qe76xvwc2z

    It makes, in a great deal more detail, similar points to the ones I raised.

    "..The Speaker may not use his statutory obligation to administer the oath under 2
    U.S.C. § 25 to arbitrarily delay seating a member when there is no dispute as to the election or
    qualifications and no practical reason why he is unable to administer the oath..."
    "...The question of whether an individual has a right to a House seat, and whether the
    House is wrongfully denying that person admission, is justiciable and is not a political question.
    Powell, 395 U.S. at 548..."

    "..It is a constitutional qualification for office that a member take the oath of office
    before assuming office. U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3 (“The … Representatives … shall be bound by
    Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution.”)..."
    "36. The Constitution provides neither the language of the oath nor any requirements as
    to who must administer it.
    37. One statute, 5 U.S.C. § 3331, gives the language of the oath, but does not specify
    how it is to be administered.
    38. A second statute, 2 U.S.C. § 25, describes the procedure for swearing in the Speaker
    and members-elect.
    39. Per that process, “any Member of the House of Representatives” swears in the
    Speaker upon the Speaker’s election. The Speaker then swears in the members-elect. But the
    individual who swears in the Speaker (usually the Dean of the House) has not yet been sworn for
    that Congress, and so is at that time a member-elect, establishing that non-members of the House
    may and do constitutionally administer the oath.
    40. Nothing in 2 U.S.C. § 25 makes the administration of the oath discretionary on the
    part of the Speaker..."

    Note that there is no practicable way to change the constitution before the midterms.
    The procedures for seating House members are set out in statutory law (see above). To make any change to that would (along with the Senate and Presidential conformation) require the House to come back in session. And in any event, there will be at least a handful of GOP members who would stop short of the kind of insanity we're talking about.

    So while on the one hand, this is a democratic outrage, on the other it does not in itself provide a route for preventing a Democratic majority Congress seating itself in January 2027.


    Conversely, it does provide a clear template for dealing with MAGA fuckery.

    ..Because there is no dispute as to Ms. Grijalva’s election or qualifications, the Court should:
    A. Issue a declaratory judgment stating that Ms. Grijalva shall be deemed a Member
    of the House of Representatives once she has taken the oath prescribed by law, see 5 U.S.C. § 3331;
    B. Issue a declaratory judgment stating that if Speaker Johnson has not administered
    the oath, the oath may be administered to Ms. Grijalva by any person authorized by law to
    administer oaths under the law of the United States, the District of Columbia, or the State of
    Arizona


    That would be very similar to the form of request to a court made by a Democratic majority in the midterms.
    I don't think there would be a majority, even on the current Supreme Court, who would overturn the constitution in order to deny this.

    The bigger danger is what Trump and his lawless administration might so by exercise of executive power.
    We already know Speaker Johnson has proven himself a spineless weasel, whose only role is to prevent the release of the Epstein files. If she can be sworn in and he can't prevent it, what use is he?

    That's a cheery thought to start the day
    Surely the files have been destroyed by now?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,034
    edited October 22

    Re nimbyism and the proposed Rotherham solar farm.

    I get the impression that locals think that after a century of coal mining its now regarded as another part of the country's (ie the South) turn to have its environment disrupted to provide energy for the nation.

    And after decades of the South paying the same price for energy as the areas which produce it and then carry the transmission net. Closing Battersea, Millbank and Deptford generating stations was a powerful symbol, perhaps now inadvertently so.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,866
    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,278
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    You mean they were wrong about something? Wow, that almost never always happens...
    Didn't the German car makers save us then?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,025
    dixiedean said:

    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.

    To be fair, if the Conservatives poll as they have been their manifesto will have all the impact of a fairy story. Not that that stops the policy being wretched on both a moral and intellectual level.
  • dixiedean said:

    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.

    To put it in stark PB terms, Katie Lam’s proposals will see Sunil get deported.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,592

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    So we took one for the team.

    *very proud*
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,022
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    There speaks a loyal Conservative.

    The Conservatives clearly aren't "dead" but they aren't well - look at the results in Surrey last week. Towns like Caterham and Whyteleafe were once strongholds of the party - now, it's not just they are a close second to the LDs, they are a poor third .

    Yes, you can be as waspish about the LDs as you like but in their historical context, 72 seats is a success, albeit for the most part built on the Conservative Party's collapse (but you can say the same about Labour, Reform and Green - we are all picking over the corpse of a once formidable electoral winning machine).

    It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    As the cobbler would tell you, time wounds all heels and in a couple of decades, there may be an opportunity for a "new" Conservative Party, predicated on the old principles of one nation Conservatism, to emerge and in all probability return to Government but that requires a clearout of augean proportions both of who are in the Party now and of their half-baked thinking.
    I am fighting a District Council by-election in South Leicestershire (on 6th November) and personally knocking on over 150 doors a day - Numerous "WelI I used to be Conservative" comments.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,851

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    I can't tell if this is a joke - but the UK didn't experience a recession after Brexit.
    Undoubtedly it hurt the economy, but there wasnt an immediate recession.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,278
    ydoethur said:

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Absolutely, we did the rest of the EU a massive favour. Given the rise of global bullies like Trump, Putin and Xi I don't think anyone else in Europe would want to be as lonely as we are right now.
    The only slight irony of that remark is that when European leaders met to discuss the Ukraine/Trump disaster, they held their meeting in *checks notes* London.

    Ultimately, the whole thing was a complete waste of time effort and money that could have been better spent but the header touches on and yet somewhat misses the point of our departure - it destroyed the EU's belief in ineluctable unification and led to them behaving somewhat more cautiously. No idiots like Juncker saying 'if it's yes, we go on and if it's no, we continue' any more.

    That's actually been a very good thing for the EU and in itself done a lot to quiet discontent. If they'd had that attitude before 2016 odds are it would have tipped enough to Remain to win the vote.
    I don't believe so.

    The conned (52%) by the conmen (Johnson, Farage, every right wing newspaper editor and hedge fund manager) would still have voted to Leave.

    Now if the Starmer-Corbyn led Remain campaign hadn't been so dire that might have helped.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,684
    Long thread on just how bad it is for the Russians at the moment.

    https://x.com/tweet4anna_nafo/status/1980771743473033515

    A big well done to all of the citizen journalists in Ukraine, who spend their days reading and translating Russian Telegram channels mostly full of their own Russian propaganda and gloating, so the rest of the world can see what’s behind the curtain.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,034

    dixiedean said:

    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.

    To put it in stark PB terms, Katie Lam’s proposals will see Sunil get deported.
    I do also wonder what she proposes to do about marriages where one partner is from another country and isn't yet a UJ waving UK black passport holder. I'm already very worried about some of my friends and relatives.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,278

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    So we took one for the team.

    *very proud*
    It's ok for you when your independent Scotland rejoins in a few years.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,462
    Icarus said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    There speaks a loyal Conservative.

    The Conservatives clearly aren't "dead" but they aren't well - look at the results in Surrey last week. Towns like Caterham and Whyteleafe were once strongholds of the party - now, it's not just they are a close second to the LDs, they are a poor third .

    Yes, you can be as waspish about the LDs as you like but in their historical context, 72 seats is a success, albeit for the most part built on the Conservative Party's collapse (but you can say the same about Labour, Reform and Green - we are all picking over the corpse of a once formidable electoral winning machine).

    It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    As the cobbler would tell you, time wounds all heels and in a couple of decades, there may be an opportunity for a "new" Conservative Party, predicated on the old principles of one nation Conservatism, to emerge and in all probability return to Government but that requires a clearout of augean proportions both of who are in the Party now and of their half-baked thinking.
    I am fighting a District Council by-election in South Leicestershire (on 6th November) and personally knocking on over 150 doors a day - Numerous "WelI I used to be Conservative" comments.
    Indeed - nearly 14 million people voted Conservative in 2019 - it was less than 7 million last year and the Conservatives have lost perhaps a third of those since so we're looking at close to 10 million former Conservative voters so not surprising they are easy to find.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,426

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    So we took one for the team.

    *very proud*
    Nah it was all a plot to screw the Scots
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,034

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    So we took one for the team.

    *very proud*
    Great British tradition innit. "I am just going outside and may be some time."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,165

    ydoethur said:

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Absolutely, we did the rest of the EU a massive favour. Given the rise of global bullies like Trump, Putin and Xi I don't think anyone else in Europe would want to be as lonely as we are right now.
    The only slight irony of that remark is that when European leaders met to discuss the Ukraine/Trump disaster, they held their meeting in *checks notes* London.

    Ultimately, the whole thing was a complete waste of time effort and money that could have been better spent but the header touches on and yet somewhat misses the point of our departure - it destroyed the EU's belief in ineluctable unification and led to them behaving somewhat more cautiously. No idiots like Juncker saying 'if it's yes, we go on and if it's no, we continue' any more.

    That's actually been a very good thing for the EU and in itself done a lot to quiet discontent. If they'd had that attitude before 2016 odds are it would have tipped enough to Remain to win the vote.
    I don't believe so.

    The conned (52%) by the conmen (Johnson, Farage, every right wing newspaper editor and hedge fund manager) would still have voted to Leave.

    Now if the Starmer-Corbyn led Remain campaign hadn't been so dire that might have helped.
    I still believe that Corbyn either a) lied or b) spoiled his ballot paper when he said he voted for Remain (whilst also voting Leave?).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,438
    edited October 22
    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    I can't tell if this is a joke - but the UK didn't experience a recession after Brexit.
    Undoubtedly it hurt the economy, but there wasnt an immediate recession.
    There was, straight after we left.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-08-12/uk-enters-recession-after-coronavirus-crisis-shrinks-the-economy
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,426
    rkrkrk said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    I can't tell if this is a joke - but the UK didn't experience a recession after Brexit.
    Undoubtedly it hurt the economy, but there wasnt an immediate recession.
    He’s trolling.

    Brexit was in 2020 not 2016 and the recession was caused by the pandemic
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,278
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.

    To put it in stark PB terms, Katie Lam’s proposals will see Sunil get deported.
    I do also wonder what she proposes to do about marriages where one partner is from another country and isn't yet a UJ waving UK black passport holder. I'm already very worried about some of my friends and relatives.
    I believe you are missing the point hidden away within her unfortunate racist rhetoric. She dresses like Mrs Thatcher.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,705

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    As and when the Tories return to the party of your description and stop being a party who will threaten to deport my eye specialist and various friends I will start voting for them again. (They also need a sane set of policies about debt, deficit, spend, tax, education, environment, climate change, pensions and post Brexit strategy.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,034

    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.

    To put it in stark PB terms, Katie Lam’s proposals will see Sunil get deported.
    I do also wonder what she proposes to do about marriages where one partner is from another country and isn't yet a UJ waving UK black passport holder. I'm already very worried about some of my friends and relatives.
    I believe you are missing the point hidden away within her unfortunate racist rhetoric. She dresses like Mrs Thatcher.
    Sure, but the relevance? (Sorry, feeling dense - and not sure how ironic you are being.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,034
    edited October 22

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    So we took one for the team.

    *very proud*
    It's ok for you when your independent Scotland rejoins in a few years.
    TBF that 'we' was ironic, given how the Scots voted. Edit: and the Nirish too.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,735

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    Because the British example has been taken as showing that "yes, the EU is annoying in many ways, but it's still worth it."

    In that sense, it's like any other real long-term relationship with another real person (as opposed to an AI avatar, or someone rented by the minute or regular traded in for a younger, hotter version.)
    Didn't resident PB expert analogist Leon say that being in the EU was like having a child? :wink:

    They may annoy you, act childishly and petulantly, lie, bargain, make you give in to things you never wanted and occasionally vomit all over the soft furnishings, but they become an integrated part of your life, you help to shape them and they become capable over time. While you once thought you were essential, you find that they can thrive without you and - when you go your separate ways - you can't help feeling a little bit tired, old and irrelevant and nostalgic for the old days.

    Something like that, wasn't it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,688
    dixiedean said:

    How come "culturally coherent" hasn't been called out as anti-Semitic?
    Because it won't stop at the dog whistled group that's for sure. Just as wishing to deport illegal law breakers wasn't quite enough for many.

    Katie Lams grandparents were Jewish refugees from Europe prewar.

    Perhaps that makes her remarks even more gruesome, as many of the objections to those refugees in the 1930s were about "cultural coherence".
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,458

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    The only difference between the Tories and the Refukkers are the colour of their rosettes, their histories and the class/education of their voters.

    The Tories are in a doomed race to out-reform Reform and unsurprisingly that is a race they can't win, however BNP Lam and Jenrick get.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,592
    Carnyx said:

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    So we took one for the team.

    *very proud*
    Great British tradition innit. "I am just going outside and may be some time."
    Thrawn Scotland as usual.

    'I'm staying inside, hopefully for not too much more time.'
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,804

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    Though given what Katie Did Next, we may have reached the point where it's not clear why Reform are worse.

    Here Lam explicitly sets out her proposal - which is official Conservative Party policy - to deport long-standing legal permanent residents who have *ever* claimed any benefit, including the state pension or child benefit (even if the child is British), or who earn less than £39K.

    https://bsky.app/profile/jdportes.bsky.social/post/3m3q7sr5k5c27
    Shows the current difference between Conservatives and Reform. The Conservatives have people who can put policy up for all to see (positive or negative). Reform are simply fantasists with no idea of getting from A to B.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,979
    edited October 22
    Good morning

    The EU members are not going to exit the EU and if anything the Ukraine war has drawn them closer

    I read earlier in the week that Starmer's EU reset is coming up against the same problem seen previously, that the EU are not going to agree any significant changes posing the question why should the UK get the 'good bits' but not be a member ?

    Indeed the article suggested the EU are not remotely interested in the UK rejoining and why would they with an anti EU party riding high in the polls

    Yesterday my wife and I received a letter from the DWP confirming we each will receive £150 WFA in the next few weeks

    Today's inflation rate for 2026 benefits is 3.8% but thanks to the idiotic triple lock, pensioners will receive 1% more at 4.8%

    This is madness, and speaks terribly of a government with a landslide win twisting and turning trying to capture popularity and at the same time failing in its duty as the guardian of the economy

    Not only is Reeves looking for huge tax rises and seeks reduction in public spending, but is willing to abolish the 2 child cap !!!!!

    This is financial incontinence and makes one despair

    And on despair, what on earth is Lam thinking in her policy of deportations and this has to be rejected as conservative policy, or I really will be politically homeless for the first time in my 81 plus years
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,592
    Grievance mongering Jocks update. Evidently a belated awareness that he needs to build bridges.

    Andrew Bowie
    @AndrewBowie_MP
    Now confirmed Labour are giving Scotland only get a “Barnett Share” of the new Fishing Fund.
    That’s less than 8%. Despite landing 60% of Britain’s fish.
    Disgrace.
    They’ve screwed farmers. They’ve screwed oil workers. Now they’re screwing fishermen.
    Labour are screwing Scotland

    https://x.com/AndrewBowie_MP/status/1980674040403726528
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,397

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Absolutely, we did the rest of the EU a massive favour. Given the rise of global bullies like Trump, Putin and Xi I don't think anyone else in Europe would want to be as lonely as we are right now.
    Given that EU foreign and defence policy requires the approval of Viktor Orban I'm not seeing the advantages.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,354

    Grievance mongering Jocks update. Evidently a belated awareness that he needs to build bridges.

    Andrew Bowie
    @AndrewBowie_MP
    Now confirmed Labour are giving Scotland only get a “Barnett Share” of the new Fishing Fund.
    That’s less than 8%. Despite landing 60% of Britain’s fish.
    Disgrace.
    They’ve screwed farmers. They’ve screwed oil workers. Now they’re screwing fishermen.
    Labour are screwing Scotland

    https://x.com/AndrewBowie_MP/status/1980674040403726528

    That's how devolution works, isn't it? In this context, Labour is the government for England (and maybe Wales?).
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,735

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    We did also see a sudden drop in immigration though!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,942
    edited October 22
    I don't believe a majority of any of these countries wanted to leave the EU before Brexit either.

    Plus of course plenty of European nations like Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia, Albania, Monaco, Andorra, the Vatican City, and Iceland have managed outside the EU even before the UK left it
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,890
    Selebian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yes, the idea that the UK (actually the GB) would be the first domino turned out to be spectacularly naive.

    Meanwhile, what you could consider to be an actual, if unintended, Brexit benefit, of UK drivers’ details no longer being handed over to EU authorities wanting to pursue penalties for minor traffic offences such as speed cameras and the like, is soon coming to an end.

    Remainers were spot on.

    Within weeks of leaving the EU the UK experienced the biggest and deepest recession in our history, that is a fact.
    We did also see a sudden drop in immigration though!
    And a good drop in air pollution.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,676

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    You mean they were wrong about something? Wow, that almost never always happens...
    An alternative view is that the EU was determined to show that Brexit was a bad idea, even at risk of harming itself. Free trade with the UK and Europe isn't just good for the UK. And they did their job pretty well.
    Arguably one of the reasons for the UK to be part of the EU is that it's easier to prevent the French from using the EU to damage the UK if the UK is also a member with a vote.

    It's a pretty negative reason, but realpolitik is not all sunshine and roses. And I think it also points to a mistake the British always made, which was to imagine the EU as a coherent whole, rather than a somewhat chaotic sum of its parts.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,397

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Absolutely, we did the rest of the EU a massive favour. Given the rise of global bullies like Trump, Putin and Xi I don't think anyone else in Europe would want to be as lonely as we are right now.
    Given that EU foreign and defence policy requires the approval of Viktor Orban I'm not seeing the advantages.
    On a related note do those people who advocate a EU defence role understand that it would mean paying more to get less ?

    That is the policy of the Greens for those PBers who have expressed their interest in the party recently.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,684

    The one abiding Brexit bonus is that nearly a decade on, Remainers are still desperate to prove that there are no Brexit bonuses...

    A bold claim under an article by a Remainer pointing out a Brexit bonus!
    Seriously, I think there is a case for saying we did the rest of the EU a big favor by showing how effing stupid it was to leave the world's largest and most successful free trade association. Shame we had to pay the price, but from a broadly European standpoint you could well say Brexit was a good thing.
    Absolutely, we did the rest of the EU a massive favour. Given the rise of global bullies like Trump, Putin and Xi I don't think anyone else in Europe would want to be as lonely as we are right now.
    Given that EU foreign and defence policy requires the approval of Viktor Orban I'm not seeing the advantages.
    Controversial view, but the UK being outside the EU structures has been very useful in dealing with the Ukraine war, because it’s made it mostly an issue for individual countries, rather than a starting point of trying to arrange a primarily EU-level response which, at the start of the war, would have been like herding cats.
  • Icarus said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I don't think those figures mean much - I don't know if "Europe" is in the political background as much as it was for us from rebates via Bruges via Maastricht to the Euro to Lisbon etc. We had 35 years of Europe being in our politics from Thatcher to Major to Blair to Brown to Cameron - each one of them had "issues" with the EEC and later the EU.

    Arguably, it destroyed the Conservative Party - now, whether you think that's another "dividend" or not is up to you but I'm certain the party would not be where it is now otherwise but every party had a fracture on this issue of some degree.

    Claims of the death of the Tory party are massively premature. They were in government last year and lost an election after 14 years in power. People were and still are sick of them. Add in the purge of the pro Europeans and a lot of ‘talent’ and centrism has gone from the MP roster.
    But. They are still polling more than Ed Daley’s apparently hugely sucessful Lib Dem’s, and pretty close to the party who won a huge majority last year.

    Those who would welcome the extinction of conservatism should be careful what they wish. Conservative politics isn’t right wing nastiness. It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    And if you have no conservatives, you risk being left with Reform.
    There speaks a loyal Conservative.

    The Conservatives clearly aren't "dead" but they aren't well - look at the results in Surrey last week. Towns like Caterham and Whyteleafe were once strongholds of the party - now, it's not just they are a close second to the LDs, they are a poor third .

    Yes, you can be as waspish about the LDs as you like but in their historical context, 72 seats is a success, albeit for the most part built on the Conservative Party's collapse (but you can say the same about Labour, Reform and Green - we are all picking over the corpse of a once formidable electoral winning machine).

    It’s personal responsibility, a state which lets individuals get on with their lives, but includes a safety net for those who struggle. It believes that those who can work, should. It believes in wealth creation, which aids all.

    As the cobbler would tell you, time wounds all heels and in a couple of decades, there may be an opportunity for a "new" Conservative Party, predicated on the old principles of one nation Conservatism, to emerge and in all probability return to Government but that requires a clearout of augean proportions both of who are in the Party now and of their half-baked thinking.
    I am fighting a District Council by-election in South Leicestershire (on 6th November) and personally knocking on over 150 doors a day - Numerous "WelI I used to be Conservative" comments.
    Good luck, Icarus. Nice to hear from you again.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,390
    Carnyx said:

    dixiedean said:

    My flatmate who has a degree in chemical engineering and came here for Primary school faces a future in Lithuania (a country she barely recalls and a language she doesn't speak) under these plans.
    For the misdemeanour of not being born British.

    To put it in stark PB terms, Katie Lam’s proposals will see Sunil get deported.
    I do also wonder what she proposes to do about marriages where one partner is from another country and isn't yet a UJ waving UK black passport holder. I'm already very worried about some of my friends and relatives.
    It's either very stupid indeed, or sinister, or both.
    This is unrecognisable as the Conservative Party I once voted for.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,745

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    You think only 49% of French and Italian voters saying they would vote to Remain before a campaign, and before Putin has a crack at shifting the dial, is a sign of cohesion and strength? Hmm…

    I wonder what that number would have been in 2005?

    The British number was over 50% pre-referendum campaign.

    The cascade of other countries wanting to leave that Brexiteers confidently predicted doesn't seem to have happened.

    You mean they were wrong about something? Wow, that almost never always happens...
    An alternative view is that the EU was determined to show that Brexit was a bad idea, even at risk of harming itself. Free trade with the UK and Europe isn't just good for the UK. And they did their job pretty well.
    Yep. They decided to waste years in negotiations rather than just impose 3rd country rules and watch UK completely collapse because they wanted to make an example....
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,676

    Grievance mongering Jocks update. Evidently a belated awareness that he needs to build bridges.

    Andrew Bowie
    @AndrewBowie_MP
    Now confirmed Labour are giving Scotland only get a “Barnett Share” of the new Fishing Fund.
    That’s less than 8%. Despite landing 60% of Britain’s fish.
    Disgrace.
    They’ve screwed farmers. They’ve screwed oil workers. Now they’re screwing fishermen.
    Labour are screwing Scotland

    https://x.com/AndrewBowie_MP/status/1980674040403726528

    If it's not a UK scheme, administered in Westminster, and so just involves handing money over to Holyrood, with no guarantee the money will be spent on the fishing industry, then it makes absolute sense to use the Barnett formula.

    If its devolved then the Scottish fishing industry is Holyrood's responsibility.
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