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  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,377
    Terrible optics on the BBC news for Tommy and Elon.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,015
    Leon said:

    Who represents England?

    The crowd at the Albert Hall singing Rule Britannia at the top of their voices or the mob waving flags in the street and wetting themselves over South African/US economic migrant Elon Musk interest in england's future?

    Both. You need both
    Why do we need a mob baying after a foreigner's interest in England's future? Sounds like a bunch of traitors.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,912
    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,197
    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,267
    The BBC headlines are dreadful for the far right and their loathsome backer Musk .
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 248
    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    The crowds for the Diamond Jubillle were estimated at 250k with the the river lining crowds taking it over 1.5m.

    Today was bigger in terms of Central London.

    My guess would be nearer 500k.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,015

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    Musk claims to be British. Which is obviously why he built his Tesla factory in Germany... ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,148

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/13/far-rights-show-of-force-leaves-met-desperately-kettling-counter-protesters
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770
    HYUFD said:

    Lot of EU flags down at the Albert Hall

    The Proms are attended largely by the upper middle classes from London and the South so hardly surprising many of them are Remainers, I doubt many of the Tommy Robinson crowd are in the Albert Hall this evening. Most likely they got back to Dagenham, Coventry, West Brom, Stoke or Margate or Basildon or Great Yarmouth or Clacton etc after their big demo in central London and flicked on the TV just for Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves and Land of Hope and Glory (and maybe the National Anthem though they think Charlie Boy is a bit woke compared to his dear old Mum) having missed the first half and are now waiting for Match of the Day
    That was one sentence :(
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,158
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    There's a bit of a rammy in Scotland at the mo. John Swinney et al aghast at the Saltire being expropriated by Tommy's Scottish cousins at anti-immigrant demos. Ironic.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,197
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    Think of a number. If you are in favour of the said demo, multiply by 10,000. If against divide by 1000.

    Then say any old shit you think you can hget away with.

    I suppose you can look at area filled and use an average density. But that would be beyond most of the Met.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,129
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    People can have varied and changeable allegiances to multiple flags. Handing out a particular flag in an organised way in the week before a referendum seems rather crass.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,912

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    Musk claims to be British. Which is obviously why he built his Tesla factory in Germany... ;)
    Apparently, according to Shipman, ahead of the Trump state visit, all the tech-bros are having DNA tests to show they have english connections.

    This is our moment.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,148

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,461

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    Think of a number. If you are in favour of the said demo, multiply by 10,000. If against divide by 1000.

    Then say any old shit you think you can hget away with.

    I suppose you can look at area filled and use an average density. But that would be beyond most of the Met.
    It was discussed earlier on in this thread. They have a definite methodology and kit for it, and a motive to use it (think of Hillsborough).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,015
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    I've seen a few videos about this, and it is statistically, backed up with experience and data. Jacob's method is used (AIUI), along with increased numbers through public transport hubs. I can imagine nowadays, with better live aerial imagery, counting can be done quite speedily within a loose accuracy. Certainly more accurate than the organisers' claims.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,129

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    There's a bit of a rammy in Scotland at the mo. John Swinney et al aghast at the Saltire being expropriated by Tommy's Scottish cousins at anti-immigrant demos. Ironic.
    How do you feel about it, good, bad or indifferent?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,148

    Terrible optics on the BBC news for Tommy and Elon.

    Literally no one gives a fuck what the “BBC headlines” are, any more. That’s the whole point of this
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,197
    nico67 said:

    The BBC headlines are dreadful for the far right and their loathsome backer Musk .

    423 arrests at the largely peaceful Notting Hill Carnival. Some arrests and officers hurt today, which is disgraceful, but the reporting is as ever curated.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,912
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    They say it is v hard but they try and use helicopter footage and these days drones.

    I would have thought AI could give the answer in seconds from an ariel photo of central london.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,079

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    People can have varied and changeable allegiances to multiple flags. Handing out a particular flag in an organised way in the week before a referendum seems rather crass.
    Not as crass as a government sending a taxpayer-funded leaflet to every address in the country shortly before a referendum...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,483
    edited 9:52PM
    Police injured as Tommy Robinson supporters attend rally
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AXMgg7k1U

    The reporting is the numbers overwhelmed the police as exceeded what they were expecting and overflowed the designated areas.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,870
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    The old way was people at choke points and entrances with hand clicker things.

    Then came helicopter video and manual estimation for areas.

    These days, probably automated off CCTV and helicopter footage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,148

    Police injured as Tommy Robinson supporters attend rally
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AXMgg7k1U

    The reporting is the numbers overwhelmed the police as exceeded what they were expecting and overflowed the designated areas.

    “The scale of the protest vastly outgrew police estimates resulting in tense and at times violent clashes between protesters and police”

    Guardian
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,267
    The Starmer drama seems to be losing steam .

    The MOS is moving onto Andrew , the DT and the Sunday Times seem to be flogging a dead horse now.

    With no PMQs for weeks , the Trump state visit and the party conferences the media will move on .

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,483
    AI for counting from video is extremely good these days.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,158

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    There's a bit of a rammy in Scotland at the mo. John Swinney et al aghast at the Saltire being expropriated by Tommy's Scottish cousins at anti-immigrant demos. Ironic.
    How do you feel about it, good, bad or indifferent?
    Personally, I very much dislike all this flag-waving wherever, or whoever. OK at special national events or commemorations otherwise no.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,578
    Well said that man

    Starmer made standards in public life his personal dividing line. He presented himself as a high court judge of politics - propriety and ethics final boss. He was always the first to throw stones - providing the target was an opponent. Now he stands exposed as an utter hypocrite

    https://x.com/rosskempsell/status/1966978880482521297?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,267
    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    One minute you’re Enoch Powell’s long lost love child and then the next you’re battling against racism !
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,129
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    People can have varied and changeable allegiances to multiple flags. Handing out a particular flag in an organised way in the week before a referendum seems rather crass.
    Not as crass as a government sending a taxpayer-funded leaflet to every address in the country shortly before a referendum...
    Which particular one is this that still appears to be irritating your haemorrhoids?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,158
    Leon said:

    Terrible optics on the BBC news for Tommy and Elon.

    Literally no one gives a fuck what the “BBC headlines” are, any more. That’s the whole point of this
    Been quite a lot of criticism of the Beeb because of wall-to-wall Farage and little challenge. That said, suspect we will start seeing a change in their approach.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 160

    boulay said:



    It’s quite mental that of all the people who were involved with Epstein, the only men who have suffered as a result are three Brits; Prince Andrew, Mandyumyum and Starmer.

    Any articles in the NYT about how awful we are compared to the US over our attitude to this matter?

    You're forgetting the Yank in charge of one of our major banks, Jes Staley, he suffered too.
    None of the men in the US who actually abused the girls has been named. Let alone charged and convicted.

    Pretty bloody disgraceful, frankly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,912

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    14m
    What a *disgraceful* thing for [Musk] to say. If he lived in Britain that might well count as incitement to violence. Telling a crowd of people that violence is coming to them & if they don't fight back they'll die. For Pete's sake...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,079

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    People can have varied and changeable allegiances to multiple flags. Handing out a particular flag in an organised way in the week before a referendum seems rather crass.
    Not as crass as a government sending a taxpayer-funded leaflet to every address in the country shortly before a referendum...
    Which particular one is this that still appears to be irritating your haemorrhoids?
    Piles of them! No, I was referring to the EU one. Did the UK gov send one to Scottish households for 2014 too?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770
    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    No. but I do think you have to be British to be British. Self-id as British is not sufficient. Perhaps some kind of nationality recognition document like a "pass-port" should be involved.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 248
    The Police are good people, most particularly the rank and file.

    Our town has a more than it's fair share of Met officers, given we are 30 mins fom Euston.

    The contempt the 'thin blue line' feel for their politicised over lords in the chain of command is hard to overstate if the ones I encounter are representative.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,267

    Leon said:

    Terrible optics on the BBC news for Tommy and Elon.

    Literally no one gives a fuck what the “BBC headlines” are, any more. That’s the whole point of this
    Been quite a lot of criticism of the Beeb because of wall-to-wall Farage and little challenge. That said, suspect we will start seeing a change in their approach.
    Interestingly do you remember the infamous Chris Mason article about Reform which was essentially a glowing advert for them . I checked back and it was updated two days after the initial furore where he now mentions the anti vaxxer and Connolly . So clearly the BBC realized it was ridiculously biased .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,206
    Leon said:

    Confirmation, were it required


    WASHINGTON — Charlie Kirk’s alleged shooter Tyler Robinson was living with a transgender partner who was in the process of transitioning from a male to a female, a law enforcement source confirmed to The Post Saturday.


    https://nypost.com/2025/09/13/us-news/charlie-kirk-shooter-tyler-robinson-lived-with-transgender-partner/

    Can we put this to bed now? He’s an antifa lefty inspired by pro-trans beliefs to kill a “fascist and transphobe” AKA Charlie Kirk

    You are Nancy Mace and I claim my MAGA hat.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,206
    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    One minute you’re Enoch Powell’s long lost love child and then the next you’re battling against racism !
    Are you sure about the last bit?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,129
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Meanwhile it is the last night of the proms and there's union jacks everywhere.

    And an abundance of EU flags too. Who are the absolute morons who think it's a good or clever to display those?
    They're handed out by propagandists at the door, and have been since 2016.
    Are the Union flags brought spontaneously by ye good yeoman folk of olde England, or are they handed out also?
    All the other flags are brought by individuals. Only the EU flags are handed out. Of course many people also bring their own EU flags
    In the Proms in the Park at Glasgow Green in 2014 there were definitely people handing out Union flags. Perhaps this was just a one off.
    Well, same thing to an independence supporter, no? Not their flag...
    People can have varied and changeable allegiances to multiple flags. Handing out a particular flag in an organised way in the week before a referendum seems rather crass.
    Not as crass as a government sending a taxpayer-funded leaflet to every address in the country shortly before a referendum...
    Which particular one is this that still appears to be irritating your haemorrhoids?
    Piles of them! No, I was referring to the EU one. Did the UK gov send one to Scottish households for 2014 too?
    Everyone was at it, whole forests cut down.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,267
    edited 10:11PM

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    One minute you’re Enoch Powell’s long lost love child and then the next you’re battling against racism !
    Are you sure about the last bit?
    Well Leon seemed to be suggesting that you don’t have to be born in Britain to be British although he didn’t elaborate if this was a special Leon exemption for his new hero Musk or applied to others aswell !
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,089
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    No. but I do think you have to be British to be British. Self-id as British is not sufficient. Perhaps some kind of nationality recognition document like a "pass-port" should be involved.
    Saying Musk is British because of his ancestry is the same trick the CCP play when deciding which foreign citizens are actually “Chinese” and therefore fair play for arresting or assassinating.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,158
    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Terrible optics on the BBC news for Tommy and Elon.

    Literally no one gives a fuck what the “BBC headlines” are, any more. That’s the whole point of this
    Been quite a lot of criticism of the Beeb because of wall-to-wall Farage and little challenge. That said, suspect we will start seeing a change in their approach.
    Interestingly do you remember the infamous Chris Mason article about Reform which was essentially a glowing advert for them . I checked back and it was updated two days after the initial furore where he now mentions the anti vaxxer and Connolly . So clearly the BBC realized it was ridiculously biased .
    I kinda wonder whether the BBC sometimes overcompensates because its so fearful of seeming biased against those who don't share its perceived worldview. Saw the same thing in Scotland with Indy.
    TBF, trying to navigate an editorial policy through the minefield of irrational identity politics must be rather trying. How do you account for a flag thrust in your face?
  • novanova Posts: 919
    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,206
    Has anyone seen Stephen Miller and Dr Evil in the same room?

    Take a look.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,206
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    One minute you’re Enoch Powell’s long lost love child and then the next you’re battling against racism !
    Are you sure about the last bit?
    Well Leon seemed to be suggesting that you don’t have to be born in Britain to be British although he didn’t elaborate if this was a special Leon exemption for his new hero Musk or applied to others aswell !
    I am sure this is restricted to South African born, Apartheid loving white Boer billionaires.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,148
    nova said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
    He’s of racially British descent and he feels British. Self identifies. Plus his mother at least was a British subject. Taken together that’s good enough for me
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,430
    Lucy Powell? I was convinced this would be an easy victory for Bridget Phillipson.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,430

    The Police are good people, most particularly the rank and file.

    Our town has a more than it's fair share of Met officers, given we are 30 mins fom Euston.

    The contempt the 'thin blue line' feel for their politicised over lords in the chain of command is hard to overstate if the ones I encounter are representative.

    The police station in my local town closed down completely about 5 years ago. The population is 35,000.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,912
    Andy_JS said:

    Lucy Powell? I was convinced this would be an easy victory for Bridget Phillipson.

    LOL. Seriously?

    Powell is now the Starmer Is Failing candidate.

    No way Bridget wins now.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770
    Leon said:

    nova said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
    He’s of racially British descent and he feels British. Self identifies. Plus his mother at least was a British subject. Taken together that’s good enough for me
    i) What does "racially British descent" look like, as distinct from "British descent"?
    ii) How many tens of millions (more?) of people are British by this definition?
    iii) That makes Donald Trump British (his mum was Scottish)

    See also
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_of_English_descent
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_Americans
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_Americans
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scotch-Irish_Americans
  • novanova Posts: 919
    Leon said:

    nova said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
    He’s of racially British descent and he feels British. Self identifies. Plus his mother at least was a British subject. Taken together that’s good enough for me
    Was his mother British? As far as I can see, she was Canadian, lived in SA, and had American parents.

    His grandmother was British, but his dad was born in SA. Without knowing 100% of the details of all the families, I think his dad could have been British, but citizenship by descent doesn't usually pass down a second generation.

    I suspect the "we" he's talking about is probably not "we British" anyway.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,430
    I remember Leon writing a fascinating article about the history of Utah about 10 years ago. Here's another one in UnHerd.

    "Utah is America’s violent heart
    Its deep polarisation reflects national malaise
    B. Duncan Moench"

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/utah-is-americas-violent-heart
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770
    Andy_JS said:

    Lucy Powell? I was convinced this would be an easy victory for Bridget Phillipson.

    As ever, it's the electorate that counts.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 248
    Andy_JS said:

    The Police are good people, most particularly the rank and file.

    Our town has a more than it's fair share of Met officers, given we are 30 mins fom Euston.

    The contempt the 'thin blue line' feel for their politicised over lords in the chain of command is hard to overstate if the ones I encounter are representative.

    The police station in my local town closed down completely about 5 years ago. The population is 35,000.
    Same as ours, closed with population of 40k. The train to and fro Euston (35mins fast train) is packed with Met Police Officers going to and fro who live here and, strangely, musical and theatrical types from the West end
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,713
    https://www.thetimes.com/article/bcebe0d8-6fd0-4468-9ceb-5c27114f5010?shareToken=a6c5527749b8fe7e962c8c172ba48b56

    "Google is in talks to build a mammoth datacentre on a site in the northeast of England that fell victim to “industrial vandalism” little more than a decade ago.

    ...


    And the landmark project could also be scuppered by a complicated row that has pitted Sir Keir Starmer against energy secretary Ed Miliband."


    Just fucking sack Ed Miliband already. Economic vandalism is all he knows. Labour are shitting up the economy and he's one of the major reasons why. Starmer should have cleaned house in the recent reshuffle and stuck him back on the back benches if he didn't like moving from energy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,713
    Leon said:

    nova said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
    He’s of racially British descent and he feels British. Self identifies. Plus his mother at least was a British subject. Taken together that’s good enough for me
    He qualifies for citizenship through parentage and ancestry I think. Kevin Pieterson played for England and Elon Musk has got basically the same links to this country.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,483
    edited 10:43PM
    Andy_JS said:

    I remember Leon writing a fascinating article about the history of Utah about 10 years ago. Here's another one in UnHerd.

    "Utah is America’s violent heart
    Its deep polarisation reflects national malaise
    B. Duncan Moench"

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/utah-is-americas-violent-heart

    My experience of visiting Utah, particularly outside Salt Lake City proper. I found it a very odd place, on the surface everybody is very nice, but too nice in a way. But you get this weird feeling that the niceness come with strings attached.

    If I remember correctly Utah (or particularly Salt Lake City) has some of the highest academic achievement in the whole of the US, but also one of the highest suicide rates.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,386
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    nova said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
    He’s of racially British descent and he feels British. Self identifies. Plus his mother at least was a British subject. Taken together that’s good enough for me
    He qualifies for citizenship through parentage and ancestry I think. Kevin Pieterson played for England and Elon Musk has got basically the same links to this country.
    Sure, but it's not like Musk restricts himself to talking about SA, USA, Canada and the UK. Wasn't he also trying to get involved in Germany?

    Feels like either he just cannot help but meddle anywhere because he adores attention (which tbf is pretty obvious anyway, he's not one of the reclusive type billionaires), or he just wants to spend his time on PB to nerd out on all politics but cannot work up the nerve to do it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,386
    edited 10:45PM
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/bcebe0d8-6fd0-4468-9ceb-5c27114f5010?shareToken=a6c5527749b8fe7e962c8c172ba48b56

    "Google is in talks to build a mammoth datacentre on a site in the northeast of England that fell victim to “industrial vandalism” little more than a decade ago.

    ...


    And the landmark project could also be scuppered by a complicated row that has pitted Sir Keir Starmer against energy secretary Ed Miliband."


    Just fucking sack Ed Miliband already. Economic vandalism is all he knows. Labour are shitting up the economy and he's one of the major reasons why. Starmer should have cleaned house in the recent reshuffle and stuck him back on the back benches if he didn't like moving from energy.

    Isn't Ed M really popular with the party? So he may be untouchable.

    Personally I think we can do plenty of environmental things whilst really moving forward with all manner of economic boosting building and investment, but despite a few people in government mentioning it there's clearly not unanimity behind any kind of growth agenda.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770
    MaxPB said:

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/bcebe0d8-6fd0-4468-9ceb-5c27114f5010?shareToken=a6c5527749b8fe7e962c8c172ba48b56

    "Google is in talks to build a mammoth datacentre on a site in the northeast of England that fell victim to “industrial vandalism” little more than a decade ago.

    ...


    And the landmark project could also be scuppered by a complicated row that has pitted Sir Keir Starmer against energy secretary Ed Miliband."


    Just fucking sack Ed Miliband already. Economic vandalism is all he knows. Labour are shitting up the economy and he's one of the major reasons why. Starmer should have cleaned house in the recent reshuffle and stuck him back on the back benches if he didn't like moving from energy.

    +1
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,770
    edited 10:50PM
    viewcode said:
    and also the TikTok account of Lance Twiggs, which *may* explain the trans rumours... https://www.tiktok.com/@c00kies_n_cream
  • novanova Posts: 919
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    nova said:

    Leon said:

    Musk: "we don't have another four years"

    We? There is no fucking "we". You are not from our country.

    He’s British. Of British descent on both sides

    Or do you have to be born here to be British. Because that would make for some interesting conversations
    You clearly don't have to be born here to be British - but you need a little more of a connection than Musk has.

    As far as I can see, he wouldn't qualify for citizenship, and I don't believe he's ever lived in the UK for any significant period - so, not British.

    Most people would probably be relaxed that about having that conversation.
    He’s of racially British descent and he feels British. Self identifies. Plus his mother at least was a British subject. Taken together that’s good enough for me
    He qualifies for citizenship through parentage and ancestry I think. Kevin Pieterson played for England and Elon Musk has got basically the same links to this country.
    Kevin Pieterson's mother was born in the UK, so could pass on her citizenship, even if he was born outside the UK.

    Musk, as far as I can see, is one generation further. His parents would have been able to get citizenship, but a second generation born outside the UK doesn't usually qualify.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,386

    The Police are good people, most particularly the rank and file.

    Our town has a more than it's fair share of Met officers, given we are 30 mins fom Euston.

    The contempt the 'thin blue line' feel for their politicised over lords in the chain of command is hard to overstate if the ones I encounter are representative.

    My experience with them has been weird, in that rank and file and the upper echelons have seemed like shits (for different reasons), with some really competent and well meaning people in the middle (who will never rise higher).
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 819

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new twist


    EXCLUSIVE: Charlie Kirk assassin Tyler Robinson lived with his transgender partner, sources tell me.

    The individual, who is a male transitioning to a female, is fully cooperating with the FBI.

    Sources tell me the FBI had texts and other communications between Robinson and the individual that helped FBI authorities solidify that Robinson was indeed the shooter.

    https://x.com/brookesingman/status/1966889202412347602?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Can Fox News's 'sources' be trusted here? A massive dollop and gayness and trans thrown into the mix - seems too much like a MAGA wet dream.
    Meanwhile on Fox news

    @atrupar

    Brian Kilmeade endorses euthanizing homeless people: "Involuntary lethal injection, or something. Just kill them."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1966878449290649676
    It does sound vaguely familiar.

    The underlying point is that since Care in the Community and whatever is its American counterpart, there have been a lot more mentally ill people left to rot on the streets, and occasionally murder someone. Still, the British government and American insurance companies saved a bunch of money and we got some nice luxury flats at the old hospitals, so there's that. Lethal injections though? Is there a loophole in the 10 Commandments?
    The actual reason that the old mad houses went away was that

    1) they were brutal, horrible places. Out of sight, out of mind.
    2) around the world, people who were aware of it, fought against them. And the endless abuses in them.
    3) in most advanced countries laws changed. For example, locking people up for life for being a bit odd is now illegal.
    4) the medical profession changed as well. You won’t be able to find doctors to force medication on everyone a bit odd - in The Goode Olde Dayz they simply dosed everyone in the madhouse into compliance.
    5) so in the new world, you need serious reasons to lock people up, even more serious reasons to force them to take medication.

    Worth noting reports that Trumps thugs are attacking street people with Narcan…
    One of the ironies being that the politician who got Care in the Community rolling in the UK was Enoch Powell.
    Not especially ironic. In many things he was actually a thoughtful and rather progressive man. Being one of the first from mainstream politics to fall down the immigration/race rat hole destroyed his reputation - justly.
    Dwellings in Victorian times were very different to dwellings today, so I'm pretty sure that large mental institutions would also be different. The bad things about them (there were also good things) do not undermine their importance, both then and now.
    It’s pretty simple

    1) sectioning people is now a serious medico-legal endeavour
    2) once locked up, they must be repeatedly assessed to try and see if they can leave.
    3) forcibly medicating people is pretty much not a thing.
    4) modern, trained doctors won’t change 1-3 on moral grounds

    I should add, a big issue is that the patients don’t like the medicines.

    My brother-in-law ended up on the really fun stuff for a while. He said that while it helped to be clear headed and not a problem, they made him feel horrible - both feeling his mental condition and side effects. He preferred being off his nut - but stayed on them for his wife’s sake.

    There were some pretty nasty physical side effects as well, IIRC.
    People can be forcibly medicated, even in the community - they can be given depot injections that last a month of certain antipsychotics and accepting them can be a condition to their freedom. One drug has to be given orally - Clozapine - it works on people for whom no other antipsychotics work, but has the side effect that sometimes, out of the blue, even in people who have been taking it for years, stop producing white blood cells. Under these circumstances they can be sometimes be kept in the community but with their taking of the medication overseen by social care staff.

    In institutional settings people can obviously be forcibly medicated, even held down and injected with sedatives and then put in seclusion if staff feel the need. This can have a knock-on effect that people go on to resent medical treatment. They can be angry about that for decades.

    You can say "lock them all up," but if you cry over a few hundred a month in PIP payments, you'd have to be a bit of a midwit, as detention in institutional settings can cost £1000 a night.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,742

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    I've seen a few videos about this, and it is statistically, backed up with experience and data. Jacob's method is used (AIUI), along with increased numbers through public transport hubs. I can imagine nowadays, with better live aerial imagery, counting can be done quite speedily within a loose accuracy. Certainly more accurate than the organisers' claims.
    The police also have points of comparison with their weekly experience of football matches whose attendance is known, and where, like demos, there are similarly large numbers crowding the streets at the same time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,483
    edited 10:54PM
    kle4 said:

    The Police are good people, most particularly the rank and file.

    Our town has a more than it's fair share of Met officers, given we are 30 mins fom Euston.

    The contempt the 'thin blue line' feel for their politicised over lords in the chain of command is hard to overstate if the ones I encounter are representative.

    My experience with them has been weird, in that rank and file and the upper echelons have seemed like shits (for different reasons), with some really competent and well meaning people in the middle (who will never rise higher).
    As well as failing upwards, this seems to be a recurring issue in UK not just in the police. The system appears to reward this behaviour and ignored those who are competent and quietly get on with the job.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 248
    kle4 said:

    The Police are good people, most particularly the rank and file.

    Our town has a more than it's fair share of Met officers, given we are 30 mins fom Euston.

    The contempt the 'thin blue line' feel for their politicised over lords in the chain of command is hard to overstate if the ones I encounter are representative.

    My experience with them has been weird, in that rank and file and the upper echelons have seemed like shits (for different reasons), with some really competent and well meaning people in the middle (who will never rise higher).
    Yes, the peope I encouter would fall into that middling category.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 248

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    I've seen a few videos about this, and it is statistically, backed up with experience and data. Jacob's method is used (AIUI), along with increased numbers through public transport hubs. I can imagine nowadays, with better live aerial imagery, counting can be done quite speedily within a loose accuracy. Certainly more accurate than the organisers' claims.
    The police also have points of comparison with their weekly experience of football matches whose attendance is known, and where, like demos, there are similarly large numbers crowding the streets at the same time.
    Absolutely, on that basis its going to end up a LOT higher than the official 110k.

    Compare the footage to the Jubilees in 2002/12/ 23.

    The crowds are much larger today then then.

  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 248

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    Surely that would depend on what they were expecting? And is there evidence that ‘they nearly lost control’? Of what?
    Just as a matter of interest...how do the polis measure the size of crowds? Is there a methodology?
    I've seen a few videos about this, and it is statistically, backed up with experience and data. Jacob's method is used (AIUI), along with increased numbers through public transport hubs. I can imagine nowadays, with better live aerial imagery, counting can be done quite speedily within a loose accuracy. Certainly more accurate than the organisers' claims.
    The police also have points of comparison with their weekly experience of football matches whose attendance is known, and where, like demos, there are similarly large numbers crowding the streets at the same time.
    Absolutely, on that basis its going to end up a LOT higher than the official 110k.

    Compare the footage to the Jubilees in 2002/12/ 23.

    The crowds are much larger today then then.

    22 apologies
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,879

    Leon said:

    Terrible optics on the BBC news for Tommy and Elon.

    Literally no one gives a fuck what the “BBC headlines” are, any more. That’s the whole point of this
    Been quite a lot of criticism of the Beeb because of wall-to-wall Farage and little challenge. That said, suspect we will start seeing a change in their approach.
    Wall-to-wall Farage?? You should watch GB News!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,742

    Coming to the UK soon...


    Simon Schama
    @simon_schama
    ·
    3h
    incredible ... " just kill them" - on network tv

    https://x.com/simon_schama/status/1966915938818945314

    He must be one of those hard left radicals President Trump and Leon keep warning us about.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,742
    Leon said:

    The Groaniad is reporting that the Tommy March had numbers “way in excess of what police were expecting” and they nearly lost control as a result

    That sounds like more than 110,000

    They were expecting 40,000 iirc.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,377
    Sky Arts showing the 'White Riot' documentary about the Rock Against Racism movement. Coincidence?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,267
    edited 11:18PM

    Coming to the UK soon...


    Simon Schama
    @simon_schama
    ·
    3h
    incredible ... " just kill them" - on network tv

    https://x.com/simon_schama/status/1966915938818945314

    He must be one of those hard left radicals President Trump and Leon keep warning us about.
    Astonishing that the guy is still in a job . Any other network would have sacked him and the lack of any repercussions shows Fox News is a total cesspit of hate .
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,430

    Andy_JS said:

    I remember Leon writing a fascinating article about the history of Utah about 10 years ago. Here's another one in UnHerd.

    "Utah is America’s violent heart
    Its deep polarisation reflects national malaise
    B. Duncan Moench"

    https://unherd.com/2025/09/utah-is-americas-violent-heart

    My experience of visiting Utah, particularly outside Salt Lake City proper. I found it a very odd place, on the surface everybody is very nice, but too nice in a way. But you get this weird feeling that the niceness come with strings attached.

    If I remember correctly Utah (or particularly Salt Lake City) has some of the highest academic achievement in the whole of the US, but also one of the highest suicide rates.
    Interesting. I know it also has the highest percentage of people giving English as their ancestry in the census.
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