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The voters give Starmer a mandate for Palestine – politicalbetting.com

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30
    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963
    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    edited July 30
    Andy_JS said:

    Reform supporters are probably underrepresented on PB.

    They are - I'd say mainly because the highly educated professional classes are overweight on PB and underweight amongst Reform supporters. However there are a few Reform supporters on here and I sense a few more are 'bubbling under'.

    This cries out for a number, doesn't it. Ok, so if there were a GE tomorrow I estimate that eight PB regulars would vote for Reform.

    I have a list, obviously, but people get a bit spooked by my lists so we'll leave it there.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,517
    Dura_Ace said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    It's the Old Firm match of Internet arguments and everyone has a side. Eg I like Hamas, Barty Bobs has a steaming hard-on for the Zionist Entity. The formulaic structure of the discussion is reassuringly familiar too, like the plot of a Bond film.
    And of course the actual Old Firm has decided to have dogs in the fight, though the Hoops seem a bit more enthusiastic.



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,725
    Dura_Ace said:

    Farage under investigation by Standards commissioner over 'registration of an interest'

    Oh god, just what we need now, some Trump-style martyrdom to give him a further boost.
    He is such a grasping skilamalink
    Classy archaism.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,788
    edited July 30
    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963

    Dura_Ace said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    It's the Old Firm match of Internet arguments and everyone has a side. Eg I like Hamas, Barty Bobs has a steaming hard-on for the Zionist Entity. The formulaic structure of the discussion is reassuringly familiar too, like the plot of a Bond film.
    And of course the actual Old Firm has decided to have dogs in the fight, though the Hoops seem a bit more enthusiastic.



    Good job the Israelis and Palestinians chose their flags in line with the old firm.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,721
    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    Interesting thought on the Allison Pearson Telegraph piece thread.

    Lucy Connolly should stand as a Reform candidate for Parliament.

    I don't know - could she?

    (The thread is really quite rabid. They do NOT like being told that Allison Pearson is a fantasist who needs to do some homework.)

    No. Legislation brought in after Bobby Sands got elected in the 1980s prevents the incarcerated from standing.
    Yes, but she'll be out by 2028. Full sentence was just over 3 years, so even the whole sentence will be done.

    Is a previous jail sentence an inhibition? I'm not sure.

    There was an online petition to make it so in 2015, but it received TWO signatures.

    Surely there were cases in NI of released IRA and other (IVF) previously imprisoned people standing? Wasn't Jerry Adams in the Long Kesh around 1972, but I'm not sure if that was a criminal conviction?
    UVF not IVF :lol:
    The latter is just inconceivable.
    Yes - but it's interesting. IVF was largely Conservative Evangelical and politically probably quietist / small c conservative; I have met some remarkable people from the follow-on UCCF.

    But some people of similar doctrinal stripe in eg NI, were quite willing to embrace violence. There was always a desgree of Arminian/Calvinist tension, but they navigated that successively.

    Since I said UVF, consider Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, which is orthodox Calvinist, and his claims about the "Third Force" in 1981, and his "demonstration to journalists" of 500 of his men waving their firearms licences:
    https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/07/world/paisley-and-500-protestants-stage-ulster-show-of-force.html

    That's one obvious difference with the current USA tradition, whether MAGA or Reformed Evangelicals (Calvinist mainly - equivalent to eg Strict Baptists or Open Brethren here), who often have an unapologetic callousness which is absent from that movement in the UK. Even now, some take a hard line on 'moral' questions, but it has been gradually liberalising for more than half a century.

    Politically I think this is one reason why American style Nat Cons, and our self-dubbed "Patriots" on the Right will have quite a job appropriating the "Christian" identity in the UK, as their latest identity-skin to steal.
    Most UK evangelicals are also anti gay marriage and anti abortion
    Possibly true as a snapshot but not that relevant to my point; attitudes are liberalising over time - mainly by individuals actually getting to know same sex couples.

    As a couple of examples, how many Evangelicals take a "James Anderton" position compared to 1987, and how many Pentecostals are still dealing with homosexuality by attempting to exorcise it?
    'Since 2022 Baptist Union Council has been considering a request from LGBT+ ministers and their allies that the rules for Baptist Ministers be changed so that entering a same-sex marriage would no longer be considered ‘gross misconduct’. On 20th March, the motion was overwhelmingly rejected, meaning that the denomination has actively chosen to continue down a route of discrimination, inequality and exclusion.'
    https://www.movement.org.uk/blog/response-baptist-union-council-decision-lgbtq-ministers

    https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2024/08/charity-watchdog-refuses-to-act-on-gay-exorcism-church
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67592961
    That is for ministers.

    Baptist Churches also have the freedom to conduct same sex marriages if they choose, and same sex couples can be church members.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,673

    Dura_Ace said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    It's the Old Firm match of Internet arguments and everyone has a side. Eg I like Hamas, Barty Bobs has a steaming hard-on for the Zionist Entity. The formulaic structure of the discussion is reassuringly familiar too, like the plot of a Bond film.
    And of course the actual Old Firm has decided to have dogs in the fight, though the Hoops seem a bit more enthusiastic.



    COYBIG
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449
    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Is there such a thing as 'the great and the good' or 'establishment worthies' anymore? That is people who are most likely a little bit woolly, mildly liberal but ultimately committed to the public good with a sceptical but nonetheless healthy faith in our traditional institutions.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reform supporters are probably underrepresented on PB.

    They are - I'd say mainly because the highly educated professional classes are overweight on PB and underweight amongst Reform supporters. However there are a few Reform supporters on here and I sense a few more are 'bubbling under'.

    This cries out for a number, doesn't it. Ok, so if there were a GE tomorrow I estimate that eight PB regulars would vote for Reform.

    I have a list, obviously, but people get a bit spooked by my lists so we'll leave it there.
    Are you suggesting that a lot of PBers are fatty fatty bum bums? Fat shamming!!!!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,272

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,272
    edited July 30
    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    While I have no doubt that they see it that way, and there is an element of truth in that, it is also a simplistic way of seeing the conflict.

    That's usually the case when outsiders get themselves involved in inter-ethnic conflicts.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,719
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform voters the main outlier in still rejecting a Palestinian state while most of the other main parties back recognition of it, especially Green, Labour and LD voters.

    Four out of five permanent UN Security Council members would also likely back it as would the UN General Assembly but the US would again likely veto it

    Apart from @Leon , I’m not aware of any posters supporting Reform. Yet they consistently poll around 30%. Do we have a cohort of shy Reformers who are pretending still to be Conservatives, whilst agreeing with the views of Reform voters?
    PB doesn't however have many low IQ regulars
    Pagan was leaning Reform I believe too before his ban.

    According to the latest Yougov poll Reform are on 36% with working class C2DE voters but just 25% with middle class ABC1 voters, which suggests PB does not have many working class posters

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/voting-intention?crossBreak=c2de
    Of course it doesn't, they're too busy working to spend hours on here arguing about what constitutes a woman or whether starving kids to death is okay or not.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
    Thatcher wasnt a centrist, Major perhaps. So being generous that is another 6 years of centrists in power, vs 11 they were out of power. Not quite old enough to categorise the 70s lot with any confidence.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,759
    edited July 30
    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,738
    MattW said:

    Quite an interesting report from a Labour-Reform marginal:

    https://labourlist.org/2025/07/stevenage-woman-news-conor-mcgrath-council-election-vote/?source=email-labour-list&link_id=13&can_id=b64611f4630a0fb4878f4059d69caa69&email_referrer=email_2830085&email_subject=how-labour-lost-and-won-stevenage-woman

    The implication that Labour won the seat at the second attempt partly by being more like Reform on immigration is uncomfortable.

    Morning Nick.

    How would you compare that to Danish politics (which iirc is one your areas of knowledge) ?
    I'm a bit out of touch with Denmark now - haven't lived there since 1978! My understanding is that the Social Democrats have moved to be more anti-immigration, but as Denmark has drastic PR (anything over 2% gets you seats in Parliament) the pro-immigration voters have been largely soaked up by SF and Unity List to their left.

    I'm uncomfortable about the extent to which the electoral system dictates party positions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reform supporters are probably underrepresented on PB.

    They are - I'd say mainly because the highly educated professional classes are overweight on PB and underweight amongst Reform supporters. However there are a few Reform supporters on here and I sense a few more are 'bubbling under'.

    This cries out for a number, doesn't it. Ok, so if there were a GE tomorrow I estimate that eight PB regulars would vote for Reform.

    I have a list, obviously, but people get a bit spooked by my lists so we'll leave it there.
    Are you suggesting that a lot of PBers are fatty fatty bum bums? Fat shamming!!!!
    That could also be true but you won't hear it from me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,665
    Why hasn't Ollie Robinson been selected?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30
    Andy_JS said:

    Why hasn't Ollie Robinson been selected?

    Because he is shit....that a bit unfair, I don't think he fits in well with the clicky bazball team and he bowls far too slowly and now into his 30s. It is effectively on certain English pitches with the Duke's ball in the right conditions, but he isn't an international level bowler that you can take to Australia for instance. And he can't bat that well either i.e. Carse and Woakes are better batters.

    Why Overton is in, I have no f##king clue. After getting badly injured he lost all his pace and in past 2-3 years really has turned into a T20 specialist.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,742
    edited July 30
    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    I agree that much needs to change but none of the change on offer is great.

    Reform can talk the talk on some aspects, but are they genuinely a party on a mission to restructure Britain or are they just a vehicle for grievance who will fall apart at the first sign of difficulty? Current evidence suggests the latter.

    The Tories could be a party who could offer this, but they are currently too tainted by their record and too full of ‘talent’ from that era who have shown little signs of having the drive, vision and purpose at this stage.

    Maybe something will arise from the ruins of Reform and the Tories that will offer something distinctive and credible, but that will take time. Until that point I remain politically homeless, unless I can be convinced that Labour can address some of this (which on current evidence is a resounding no).
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,759
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
    Anyone who thinks a Reform government will be pure & unsullied by any of the temptations that have led to previous administrations and bureaucracies leaving the path of righteousness is deluded though.

    The problems identified by Cyclefree are endemic to large organisations made up of people. The solution is not to throw out the old leaders & replace them with new ones - which changes nothing - but instead to consider carefully the structures by which we govern ourselves & to put in place checks & balances that act against the natural tendency of bureaucracies to turn inward & resist criticism above all other things.

    This is hard work, unrewarding work of course - which is why we get the government we deserve, including any future Reform government which, I predict, will fail in many of the same ways that past UK governments have failed & for the same reasons.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,272
    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    I would say mostly true, but certainly not the whole truth.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,272
    Phil said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
    Anyone who thinks a Reform government will be pure & unsullied by any of the temptations that have led to previous administrations and bureaucracies leaving the path of righteousness is deluded though.

    The problems identified by Cyclefree are endemic to large organisations made up of people. The solution is not to throw out the old leaders & replace them with new ones - which changes nothing - but instead to consider carefully the structures by which we govern ourselves & to put in place checks & balances that act against the natural tendency of bureaucracies to turn inward & resist criticism above all other things.

    This is hard work, unrewarding work of course - which is why we get the government we deserve, including any future Reform government which, I predict, will fail in many of the same ways that past UK governments have failed & for the same reasons.
    No I don't think that, but I do think the mainstream will only improve their behaviour if they are given an almighty kicking by the voters.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449
    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,759
    Dura_Ace said:

    Farage under investigation by Standards commissioner over 'registration of an interest'

    Oh god, just what we need now, some Trump-style martyrdom to give him a further boost.
    He is such a grasping skilamalink, it was inevitable he'd come a cropper once he was an MP. Remember "Farage Gin" or his mad gold trading thing aimed at the over 90s?
    Buying gold has turned out to be the trade of the decade. Although I have a suspicion that if you bought through any outfit Farage fronted up for you might find that his advertising fees had eaten up all your gains.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. Tufnell was really just a bit crap.

    The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,725

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He's clearly a work in progress, but he's got obvious potential - and just as important, self belief.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,006

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reform supporters are probably underrepresented on PB.

    They are - I'd say mainly because the highly educated professional classes are overweight on PB and underweight amongst Reform supporters. However there are a few Reform supporters on here and I sense a few more are 'bubbling under'.

    This cries out for a number, doesn't it. Ok, so if there were a GE tomorrow I estimate that eight PB regulars would vote for Reform.

    I have a list, obviously, but people get a bit spooked by my lists so we'll leave it there.
    Are you suggesting that a lot of PBers are fatty fatty bum bums? Fat shamming!!!!
    And a lot nearer the bone than the outside of my arse, to be fair.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
    And England win more games playing that way than they did under Giles keeping the scoring down. They lose a similar amount, just draws have been shifted into wins with the more aggressive approach. Still the back seat drivers lament the switch every time things don't fully go our way.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,065

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
    And England win more games playing that way than they did under Giles keeping the scoring down. They lose a similar amount, just draws have been shifted into wins with the more aggressive approach. Still the back seat drivers lament the switch every time things don't fully go our way.
    Ahmed has basically the same stats as Bashir, 22 wickets in 5 tests at average of 31, and is a far superior batter. That was the point, that he appears to have been totally discarded.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,065

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,754
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    This was a rare free lunch in politics. Popular, free, the right thing to do morally. I do expect it to be a bit helpful to Labour , but Starmer has put himself well behind public opinion here.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,721
    edited July 30
    The difficulty of intermittent disability (which is a thing), and the determination of cases.

    This was a false claim against the NHS where the defendant is probably going down for Contempt of Court.

    It demonstrates the need for integrity by Doctors and Lawyers.

    A body paint artist who filed a £3 million NHS compensation claim is facing jail after her disability claims were exposed as “fraudulent” by a video of her dancing at a festival.

    Kae Burnell-Chambers, 44, claimed that delayed diagnosis by NHS doctors had led to nerve damage which left her struggling to walk, get out of a car or even dress herself.

    But a video unveiled at the High Court instead showed the artist posing and strutting whilst painted as a fantasy warrior at a festival in 2019.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/29/artist-sued-nhs-3m-disability-compensation-caught-dancing/

    (The GB News remanufactured the headline into the artist actually hang stolen the £3m, rather than attemting and being caught.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,554
    Sean_F said:

    Phil said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
    Anyone who thinks a Reform government will be pure & unsullied by any of the temptations that have led to previous administrations and bureaucracies leaving the path of righteousness is deluded though.

    The problems identified by Cyclefree are endemic to large organisations made up of people. The solution is not to throw out the old leaders & replace them with new ones - which changes nothing - but instead to consider carefully the structures by which we govern ourselves & to put in place checks & balances that act against the natural tendency of bureaucracies to turn inward & resist criticism above all other things.

    This is hard work, unrewarding work of course - which is why we get the government we deserve, including any future Reform government which, I predict, will fail in many of the same ways that past UK governments have failed & for the same reasons.
    No I don't think that, but I do think the mainstream will only improve their behaviour if they are given an almighty kicking by the voters.
    I rather suspect you will find the behaviour of politicians from the extremes is rather more immoral, than less.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30
    Don't panic....

    But the all-rounder says he is only expecting to be sidelined for around six or seven weeks.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/clyvjd566e2o
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,725
    Bloomberg reports that the German Ministry of Defence is readying as many as 60 procurement contracts that are to be awarded by the end of the year.

    These include orders for:
    - 20 Eurofighter Typhoon
    - Up to 5,000 Boxer (including 600 Skyranger SHORAD)
    - Up to 3.500 Patria CAVs, which will cost up to 5 billion € with production to take place at FFG in Germany.
    - Several hundred Leopard 2
    - Several billion € worth of drones

    https://x.com/Jeff21461/status/1950509532892877136
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,889

    Don't panic....

    But the all-rounder says he is only expecting to be sidelined for around six or seven weeks.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/clyvjd566e2o

    Like trying to get an Alfa Romeo through it's MOT.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
    And England win more games playing that way than they did under Giles keeping the scoring down. They lose a similar amount, just draws have been shifted into wins with the more aggressive approach. Still the back seat drivers lament the switch every time things don't fully go our way.
    Ahmed has basically the same stats as Bashir, 22 wickets in 5 tests at average of 31, and is a far superior batter. That was the point, that he appears to have been totally discarded.
    He chose to leave the India tour for unspecified personal reasons last year as a 19 year old. I'd imagine he will be in the Ashes squad.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,759
    Sean_F said:

    Phil said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
    Anyone who thinks a Reform government will be pure & unsullied by any of the temptations that have led to previous administrations and bureaucracies leaving the path of righteousness is deluded though.

    The problems identified by Cyclefree are endemic to large organisations made up of people. The solution is not to throw out the old leaders & replace them with new ones - which changes nothing - but instead to consider carefully the structures by which we govern ourselves & to put in place checks & balances that act against the natural tendency of bureaucracies to turn inward & resist criticism above all other things.

    This is hard work, unrewarding work of course - which is why we get the government we deserve, including any future Reform government which, I predict, will fail in many of the same ways that past UK governments have failed & for the same reasons.
    No I don't think that, but I do think the mainstream will only improve their behaviour if they are given an almighty kicking by the voters.
    The difficulty there is that they will learn a completely different lesson from their loss & Reform’s gain.

    No easy answers unfortunately :(
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,135

    Dura_Ace said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    It's the Old Firm match of Internet arguments and everyone has a side. Eg I like Hamas, Barty Bobs has a steaming hard-on for the Zionist Entity. The formulaic structure of the discussion is reassuringly familiar too, like the plot of a Bond film.
    And of course the actual Old Firm has decided to have dogs in the fight, though the Hoops seem a bit more enthusiastic.



    Rangers fans supporting Israel is one of the reasons making me lean towards Palestine. I also expect Rangers supporters to vote Reform, especially if they commit to abolishing the Scottish Parliament.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
    And England win more games playing that way than they did under Giles keeping the scoring down. They lose a similar amount, just draws have been shifted into wins with the more aggressive approach. Still the back seat drivers lament the switch every time things don't fully go our way.
    Ahmed has basically the same stats as Bashir, 22 wickets in 5 tests at average of 31, and is a far superior batter. That was the point, that he appears to have been totally discarded.
    He chose to leave the India tour for unspecified personal reasons last year as a 19 year old. I'd imagine he will be in the Ashes squad.
    I wouldn't be so sure. The last test and particularly the upcoming ones seemed like ideal opportunities.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 200
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform voters the main outlier in still rejecting a Palestinian state while most of the other main parties back recognition of it, especially Green, Labour and LD voters.

    Four out of five permanent UN Security Council members would also likely back it as would the UN General Assembly but the US would again likely veto it

    Apart from @Leon , I’m not aware of any posters supporting Reform. Yet they consistently poll around 30%. Do we have a cohort of shy Reformers who are pretending still to be Conservatives, whilst agreeing with the views of Reform voters?
    PB doesn't however have many low IQ regulars
    Except you who never fail in that respect.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,517
    ..

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    I think we can all agree that social media is the best way to get an honest, truthful impression of people and events.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,065
    edited July 30

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    So that’s a no.

    As David Cameron said wisely, social media isn’t Britain.

    I know several Jewish people and it’s a bit more nuanced.

    Ask any of them and they put the blame on Bibi, for not preparing for the attack, as a Jewish historian friend put it, we’re get a live re-enactment of the Warsaw Ghetto.

    The language of some Israelis to the Palestinians is akin to that of the Nazis.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 200
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reform supporters are probably underrepresented on PB.

    They are - I'd say mainly because the highly educated professional classes are overweight on PB and underweight amongst Reform supporters. However there are a few Reform supporters on here and I sense a few more are 'bubbling under'.

    This cries out for a number, doesn't it. Ok, so if there were a GE tomorrow I estimate that eight PB regulars would vote for Reform.

    I have a list, obviously, but people get a bit spooked by my lists so we'll leave it there.
    I would vote either Con or Reform depending on the place. In my case neither would win but the Cons would be stronger.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449

    Dura_Ace said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    It's the Old Firm match of Internet arguments and everyone has a side. Eg I like Hamas, Barty Bobs has a steaming hard-on for the Zionist Entity. The formulaic structure of the discussion is reassuringly familiar too, like the plot of a Bond film.
    And of course the actual Old Firm has decided to have dogs in the fight, though the Hoops seem a bit more enthusiastic.



    Rangers fans supporting Israel is one of the reasons making me lean towards Palestine. I also expect Rangers supporters to vote Reform, especially if they commit to abolishing the Scottish Parliament.
    Not many Rangers fans from what I can see!

    Whereas Celtic fans on masse favour Palestine. One of the things that has most shocked and disappointed me since 7 October is learning just how much antisemitism there is in Catholic Europe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    edited July 30
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Phil said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    More than anyone, it's probably @Cyclefree who has moved me in the direction of voting Reform. Not that she is in any way a supporter, but her accounts of what the "mainstream centrists" do, when they possess power, has convinced me that they need to be swept away.

    Her accounts are of what people do when in power. Mainstream centrists probably have had five years of Blair and another five under the coalition when they have been in power. The rest of the time they have not been listened to. The supporters of Reform have already had more time than that in power imo.
    The scandals she describes stretch back decades.
    Anyone who thinks a Reform government will be pure & unsullied by any of the temptations that have led to previous administrations and bureaucracies leaving the path of righteousness is deluded though.

    The problems identified by Cyclefree are endemic to large organisations made up of people. The solution is not to throw out the old leaders & replace them with new ones - which changes nothing - but instead to consider carefully the structures by which we govern ourselves & to put in place checks & balances that act against the natural tendency of bureaucracies to turn inward & resist criticism above all other things.

    This is hard work, unrewarding work of course - which is why we get the government we deserve, including any future Reform government which, I predict, will fail in many of the same ways that past UK governments have failed & for the same reasons.
    No I don't think that, but I do think the mainstream will only improve their behaviour if they are given an almighty kicking by the voters.
    I rather suspect you will find the behaviour of politicians from the extremes is rather more immoral, than less.
    I'd expect the 'swamp' to be restocked with a breed considerably more toxic than those that might be 'drained'.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,889
    edited July 30

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
    And England win more games playing that way than they did under Giles keeping the scoring down. They lose a similar amount, just draws have been shifted into wins with the more aggressive approach. Still the back seat drivers lament the switch every time things don't fully go our way.
    Ahmed has basically the same stats as Bashir, 22 wickets in 5 tests at average of 31, and is a far superior batter. That was the point, that he appears to have been totally discarded.
    He chose to leave the India tour for unspecified personal reasons last year as a 19 year old. I'd imagine he will be in the Ashes squad.
    Visa difficulties re Pakistani parents ?, though I note Bashir was on the tour.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,267
    edited July 30

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    Deleted. Was a cheap shot at FB when he should be praised for doing some research. Have to agree that if you live in Israel, you are likely to be quite fearful of those around you.

    Then there is the question of how this came about and who were the enablers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    scampi25 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reform supporters are probably underrepresented on PB.

    They are - I'd say mainly because the highly educated professional classes are overweight on PB and underweight amongst Reform supporters. However there are a few Reform supporters on here and I sense a few more are 'bubbling under'.

    This cries out for a number, doesn't it. Ok, so if there were a GE tomorrow I estimate that eight PB regulars would vote for Reform.

    I have a list, obviously, but people get a bit spooked by my lists so we'll leave it there.
    I would vote either Con or Reform depending on the place. In my case neither would win but the Cons would be stronger.
    Yes, I had you. Tick.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    England actually pick a bowling attack for the 5th test. Well, except Joakes

    Liam Dawson got to feel hard done by. First test after 8 years, immediately dropped.
    The last test proved why he wasn’t picked for 8 years.
    I like Jacob Bethell, but at the moment, I don't think his left armers are going to give India sleepless nights either.
    A Test at the Oval and only two part-timer spinners, one of whom is rawer than steak tartare?

    That's nuts.

    If they didn't want Dawson at least recall Leach, or Hartley, or Ahmed (and Ahmed let us not forget is also developing into an excellent top-order batsman).
    Ahmed got discarded quite quickly really. Bashir became the new favourite. Given Bashir can't bat at all and bowls lots of pies, they must really see something in him.
    How many 21 year olds have ever had 68 test wickets?
    He has played 20 tests and those wickets have come at an average of 39.
    Ashley Giles had an average of 41 and less than 3 wickets per test. It is not easy being an English spinner. Tufnell average 38. Swann, probably our best, averaged 30. Dawson averages 55 with 2 wickets a test.

    Stokes seems happy to trust Bashir and it is a sensible investment in his career. He learns far more playing for England than he would in country cricket and his numbers so far are around par for an England spinner so should improve with experience.
    Giles wasn't a wicket taker, but he was incredibly difficult to get away. I think his economy rate was sub 3 for his whole career, so they could just have him bowl away for over after over and the batsman couldn't get going. The issue with Bashir at the moment is every over he bowls at least 2 absolute pies.
    And England win more games playing that way than they did under Giles keeping the scoring down. They lose a similar amount, just draws have been shifted into wins with the more aggressive approach. Still the back seat drivers lament the switch every time things don't fully go our way.
    Ahmed has basically the same stats as Bashir, 22 wickets in 5 tests at average of 31, and is a far superior batter. That was the point, that he appears to have been totally discarded.
    He chose to leave the India tour for unspecified personal reasons last year as a 19 year old. I'd imagine he will be in the Ashes squad.
    Visa difficulties re Pakistani parents ?, though I note Bashir was on the tour.
    Off memory he missed at least one match due to that.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449
    I follow the likes of:

    Simon Schama
    Stephen Pollard
    Heidi Bachman
    Nicole Lampert
    Hadley Freeman
    Tanya Gold
    Andrew Gold
    Danny Finkelstein

    Do you think they are outliers? It was quite clear after 7 October that many British Jews were aghast at the antisemitism on display and the cowardice of the authorities, in particular, the police. And the failure of anyone to stand up to it. It's shaped my politics as much as anything.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,391
    edited July 30

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    So that’s a no.

    As David Cameron said wisely, social media isn’t Britain.

    I know several Jewish people and it’s a bit more nuanced.

    Ask any of them and they put the blame on Bibi, for not preparing for the attack, as a Jewish historian friend put it, we’re get a live re-enactment of the Warsaw Ghetto.

    The language of some Israelis to the Palestinians is akin to that of the Nazis.
    Smotrich and Ben-Gvir are in that camp. Max Hastings has indicated that Bibi appears to have an inate dislike of Palestinians.

    BBC WATO and their Times of Israel guests really going in boots on against Starmer's position. Edit: Arafat's erudite nephew is more positive.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,963
    We expect contributors to below the line comments in this site to be able to post in (more or less) coherent sentences. Whether or not this may skew the proportion of Reform UK supporters wanting to take part in our fun discussions is left as an exercise to the reader.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,135
    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,391

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    A motorhome is after all a lot less ambitious than a Qatari Boeing 777.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,399
    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,725

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    It's the windmills thing, isn't it ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,963
    edited July 30

    ..

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    I think we can all agree that social media is the best way to get an honest, truthful impression of people and events.
    To refine this further I would suggest FOCUSING exclusively on those who randomly CAPITALISE their messages for added AUTHENTICITY. Thank you for your ATTENTION to this matter!!!!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,399
    Oh look, the terrorists are celebrating that the UK government has rewarded them for October 7th. If only people had warned them this would be the case. Starmer needs to make a statement that statehood absolutely also depends on the unconditional surrender of Hamas, no wishy washy words or implications, clear language that they must disband or there will not be any recognition.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,517

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
    Eh?!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38397644

    I suppose after reading in a PB header last week that Salmond’s referendum position was an Indy Scotland outside the UK and EU I shouldn’t be surprised by anything.

    Trump hates anyone who has thwarted his parochial money-making concerns.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,135

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
    Until the offshore wind farm opposite his golf course.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,725

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
    Eh?!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38397644

    I suppose after reading in a PB header last week that Salmond’s referendum position was an Indy Scotland outside the UK and EU I shouldn’t be surprised by anything.

    Trump hates anyone who has thwarted his parochial money-making concerns.
    Trump wouldn't have a scooby who she is these days, but for his bizarre obsession with the evils of wind turbines.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,721
    Nigelb said:

    Bloomberg reports that the German Ministry of Defence is readying as many as 60 procurement contracts that are to be awarded by the end of the year.

    These include orders for:
    - 20 Eurofighter Typhoon
    - Up to 5,000 Boxer (including 600 Skyranger SHORAD)
    - Up to 3.500 Patria CAVs, which will cost up to 5 billion € with production to take place at FFG in Germany.
    - Several hundred Leopard 2
    - Several billion € worth of drones

    https://x.com/Jeff21461/status/1950509532892877136

    That's heavily targeted at German industry, which is what all of them are trying to do. And it's a 10 year term.

    There's probably £1.3-1.4 bn in it for BAE.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,517

    ..

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    I think we can all agree that social media is the best way to get an honest, truthful impression of people and events.
    To refine this further I would suggest FOCUSING exclusively on those who randomly CAPITALISE their messages for added AUTHENTICITY. Thank you for your ATTENTION to this matter!!!!
    END OF!

    Or ENDEX for the more pretentious.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
    Eh?!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38397644

    I suppose after reading in a PB header last week that Salmond’s referendum position was an Indy Scotland outside the UK and EU I shouldn’t be surprised by anything.

    Trump hates anyone who has thwarted his parochial money-making concerns.
    I was joking.....didn't he call Salmond something like the dumbest person in the world.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,517
    Nigelb said:

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
    Eh?!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38397644

    I suppose after reading in a PB header last week that Salmond’s referendum position was an Indy Scotland outside the UK and EU I shouldn’t be surprised by anything.

    Trump hates anyone who has thwarted his parochial money-making concerns.
    Trump wouldn't have a scooby who she is these days, but for his bizarre obsession with the evils of wind turbines.
    They send the whales loco!

    Not the least mad thing about that is the idea that Trump gives a tiny shit about the welfare of whales.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,158
    edited July 30

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    Is that the same New York Times that just issued an apology over the starving boy.

    This meanwhile looks like AI.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1950253578326569260?t=ZxbeaKygvzvKk-gmN6Qtkw&s=19
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video footage of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get diverted in this way.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 449

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get taken in this way.
    Andrew Fox estimated 25%.

    The violent militia Hamas don't steal food? Presumably they just ask nicely for it?

    I wonder how Bondegezou's wet market theory is going.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,629
    I see that the Spectator magazine, as requested by a PB editorial, is all over the Online Safety Act


    Feel the power of the PB mods!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    Leon said:

    I see that the Spectator magazine, as requested by a PB editorial, is all over the Online Safety Act


    Feel the power of the PB mods!

    That Sean Thomas bloke has whipped up an articles incredibly quickly...I thought he was otherwise engaged making a website with AI.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    TOPPING said:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    Is that the same New York Times that just issued an apology over the starving boy.

    This meanwhile looks like AI.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1950253578326569260?t=ZxbeaKygvzvKk-gmN6Qtkw&s=19
    The amount of fake news that gets pumped out....I think we need some sort of Online Safety Act to protect us from being exposed to it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445
    Nigelb said:

    I never thought I would agree with Trump. BBC headline “ Trump parting shot at 'terrible first minister' Sturgeon” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7jge5r8exo

    Well Trump was always Team Alex Salmond.
    Eh?!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38397644

    I suppose after reading in a PB header last week that Salmond’s referendum position was an Indy Scotland outside the UK and EU I shouldn’t be surprised by anything.

    Trump hates anyone who has thwarted his parochial money-making concerns.
    Trump wouldn't have a scooby who she is these days, but for his bizarre obsession with the evils of wind turbines.
    Well he blows an awful lot of wind. Perhaps it can be harnessed for good causes.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,399

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video footage of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get diverted in this way.
    Here's Haaretz covering the story: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-26/ty-article/idf-officials-say-no-evidence-hamas-systematically-stole-un-aid-in-gaza-nyt-reports/00000198-46ed-db91-a1df-efef44060000
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video footage of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get diverted in this way.
    Here's Haaretz covering the story: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-26/ty-article/idf-officials-say-no-evidence-hamas-systematically-stole-un-aid-in-gaza-nyt-reports/00000198-46ed-db91-a1df-efef44060000
    That is just the NYT article paraphrased. Its now classic "journalism", you take a story from another outlet, and you write a report that says such and such outlet says this, which doesn't add anything.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,345

    Leon said:

    I see that the Spectator magazine, as requested by a PB editorial, is all over the Online Safety Act


    Feel the power of the PB mods!

    That Sean Thomas bloke has whipped up an articles incredibly quickly...I thought he was otherwise engaged making a website with AI.
    Peter Kyle must be the most effective political wind-up merchant in history. I'm not happy about the act but you've got to give him some grudging respect.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,267
    edited July 30

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video footage of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get diverted in this way.
    Here's Haaretz covering the story: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-26/ty-article/idf-officials-say-no-evidence-hamas-systematically-stole-un-aid-in-gaza-nyt-reports/00000198-46ed-db91-a1df-efef44060000
    Looks like a few in the IDF wanting to distance themselves from their government's action - but AIUI following orders is no longer a defence.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,065
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    I see that the Spectator magazine, as requested by a PB editorial, is all over the Online Safety Act


    Feel the power of the PB mods!

    That Sean Thomas bloke has whipped up an articles incredibly quickly...I thought he was otherwise engaged making a website with AI.
    Peter Kyle must be the most effective political wind-up merchant in history. I'm not happy about the act but you've got to give him some grudging respect.
    I was told by a political adviser that Trump/Robinson/Tate is where Nigel Farage is really weak with floating voters.

    It’s why he polls worse with women.

    It’s allowed content to be pumped out on social media.


  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,342
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    I see that the Spectator magazine, as requested by a PB editorial, is all over the Online Safety Act


    Feel the power of the PB mods!

    That Sean Thomas bloke has whipped up an articles incredibly quickly...I thought he was otherwise engaged making a website with AI.
    Peter Kyle must be the most effective political wind-up merchant in history. I'm not happy about the act but you've got to give him some grudging respect.
    But isn't he giving free publicity to Farage?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,391
    Andy_JS said:
    It's a great relief that he no longer posts his old rubbish on here anymore.

    I won't be reading the "article".:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,065
    Leon said:

    I see that the Spectator magazine, as requested by a PB editorial, is all over the Online Safety Act


    Feel the power of the PB mods!

    I see you’ve also picked up on the academic discussion problems.

    Apparently talks of genocides of the past such as the holocaust/Rwanda and what led up to them as well is causing problems.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,665
    "'Simmering' division in town where hotel for asylum seekers is beacon for unrest
    Anti-migration demonstrators and counter-protesters have been gathering on either side of the A56 in Altrincham - where the Cresta Court Hotel has been repurposed to house asylum seekers."

    https://news.sky.com/story/simmering-division-in-town-where-hotel-for-asylum-seekers-is-beacon-for-unrest-13403750
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,272

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video footage of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get diverted in this way.
    Here's Haaretz covering the story: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-26/ty-article/idf-officials-say-no-evidence-hamas-systematically-stole-un-aid-in-gaza-nyt-reports/00000198-46ed-db91-a1df-efef44060000
    That is just the NYT article paraphrased. Its now classic "journalism", you take a story from another outlet, and you write a report that says such and such outlet says this, which doesn't add anything.
    I’ve no doubt that Hamas steals aid. The issue is whether one should therefore starve a population.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,828

    Phil said:

    Roger said:

    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    One interesting thing in this poll is that the youngsters are the least likely to say "don't know". That is very unusual for opinion polling.

    Gaza is a big thing for young voters. It was a major part of why neither of my boys would vote Labour last year.

    Too late for Starmer to get them onside. As ever he does too little too late.
    The extent to which Israel/Palestine dominates left discourse in this country when other foreign conflicts with far greater death tolls & distribution of misery are completely ignored has always depressed me. Why this conflict in particular?
    1. Classic David V Golliath. The left supports the underdog. 1,000 Israeli casualties V 71,000 Palestinian
    2 Apartheid. Since South Africa it's been an absolute taboo for the left
    3. Colonialism. They have shown a total disregard for Palestinian life
    4. Until Paul Theroux most didn't understand the the settler movement
    5. Their spokespeople have been straight out of central casting. The most arrogant liars any of us have seen or heard
    6. Several openly racist senior Ministers. Smodrich and Ben GVir.are just two obvious examples
    7. Most didn't understand what living under the Israeli yoke was like until recently. Many of us did but Israel is not a country many have visited
    8. Netanyahu. A psychpath without humanity. Happy to blow up apartment blocks with families inside. 83,000 at the last count
    9. The Israelis. A people without boundaries. Prepared to starve children in order to achieve their objectives. This was the point that it wasn't just the left but the right- including in the US right-also started feeling queasy
    Louis Theroux surely?

    & all (mostly) true of course, but that hardly makes this conflict unique on the global stage, nor does it explain why I/P specifically has dominated leftist discourse for decades, long before many of these specific issues came to the fore.
    The fact that Roger won't acknowledge antisemitism as a factor really does make me wonder.

    As for Louis Theroux, I have no problem with him making a programme about bigoted settlers. But in the interest of balance how about a documentary on the Kibbutz people near the Gaza border, who were desperate for peace with the Palestinians and were rewarded by being raped, tortured and murdered in the most unspeakably graphic manner. Would the BBC commission such a project?
    Are you really explaining antisemitism to a Jewish man?

    I’ve seen it all now.
    Not explaining no. But if the vast majority of Jews think that antisemitism is likely to be a factor (and I suggest they do) is it wrong of me to agree with them?

    I actually think there is a more generalised anti-western mindset too that China is only too willing to exploit as the Soviet Union did before it.
    How many Jewish people do you know?
    I've spent quite a lot of time since 7 October listening to the opinions of British Jews through social media. They come across as very normal, educated, decent and probably liberal people. They feel increasingly afraid and abandoned in their own country and Roger is a total outlier.
    Many people are anti-Semitic but kept it quiet. Israel's attack on Gaza has allowed them to voice their previously hidden prejudice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,327
    edited July 30
    Sean_F said:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/26/world/middleeast/hamas-un-aid-theft.html

    No Proof Hamas Routinely Stole U.N. Aid, Israeli Military Officials Say

    The IDF responded to that by releasing video footage of Hamas stealing aid. There is loads of footage filmed by Palestinians of them doing it earlier in the conflict and plenty of photos of the tunnels being incredibly well stocked with supplies

    I think a better question is what proportion of aid going in get diverted in this way.
    Here's Haaretz covering the story: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-26/ty-article/idf-officials-say-no-evidence-hamas-systematically-stole-un-aid-in-gaza-nyt-reports/00000198-46ed-db91-a1df-efef44060000
    That is just the NYT article paraphrased. Its now classic "journalism", you take a story from another outlet, and you write a report that says such and such outlet says this, which doesn't add anything.
    I’ve no doubt that Hamas steals aid. The issue is whether one should therefore starve a population.
    That is why I said the real question is what proportion get nicked. I can believe that it is overstated.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,629
    I’m at itsu at Gatwick airport (they’ve closed all the oyster bars)

    I am overhearing one of the most fascinating conversations as I pretend to focus on my phone. Two girls - about 20? - are are off on holiday to Prague. I thing they are uni friends. And this is their first holiday together so there’s a slight awkwardness. Both highly articulate and well educated - probably at UCL

    One is rather pretty slender white British - much jewellery with bdsm hints - the other is Indian British (I think) more demure, less pretty

    They just spent 20 minutes discussing sex in great detail, with the white girl in particular being very candid “I used to think I was a lesbian but recently I’ve been trying polyamory with men as well”. The Indian girl was more reticent - but still engaged

    Then they moved on to politics. The white girl was trotting out fairly standard woke opinions about the evil of the British empire and colonialism - and then, amazingly - to me - the Indian girl cake back with 1. Positive arguments for Brexit 2. Very insightful remarks about how Danish social democrats are (in a good way)very right wing on woke issues 3 an argument that Trump is underestimated 4. Mass migration is really bad

    The white British girl kinda sat there confounded. But intrigued. Because the Indian girl said everything very confidently and with correct examples etc

    I love eavesdropping at airports. That was a great example
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,445

    Andy_JS said:
    It's a great relief that he no longer posts his old rubbish on here anymore.

    I won't be reading the "article".:
    The author (Sean Thomas) is saying that political discourse these days features far too much lurid hyperbole.

    Strong point.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,629

    Andy_JS said:
    It's a great relief that he no longer posts his old rubbish on here anymore.

    I won't be reading the "article".:
    That’s a shame but I think he’ll cope. It’s now the most read article on the spectator website
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,342
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:
    It's a great relief that he no longer posts his old rubbish on here anymore.

    I won't be reading the "article".:
    That’s a shame but I think he’ll cope. It’s now the most read article on the spectator website
    Why should you care? You're "supposed" to be working for the Gazette :)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,391
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:
    It's a great relief that he no longer posts his old rubbish on here anymore.

    I won't be reading the "article".:
    That’s a shame but I think he’ll cope. It’s now the most read article on the spectator website
    I bet you wish you were as popular.
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