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Reforming the economy – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,519
edited June 11 in General
Reforming the economy – politicalbetting.com

My view is that the economy is what primarily decides general elections and the first finding from More in Common shows where Reform’s economic polices that would make Liz Truss blush are seen a risk. The voters will find with a Reform government the dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,699
    First!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,699
    The midterm of a Reform government would be a thing to behold.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,686
    IanB2 said:

    The midterm of a Reform government would be a thing to behold.

    The what?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586
    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,150
    edited June 11
    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    Maybe not in theory, in practice it absolutely is because there's no way to run a high growth economy with such a huge welfare state that encourages idleness.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,757
    edited June 11
    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586
    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,839
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    I linked to that yesterday. I'm quite pleased he seems to agree with what I said about it after the attack.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,672
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    a steaming and a rolling...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,241
    This is a potentially enormous discovery, and (for now at least) it's British.

    A single factor for safer cellular rejuvenation

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.05.657370v1
    Ageing is a key driver of the major diseases afflicting the modern world. Slowing or reversing the ageing process would therefore drive significant and broad benefits to human health. Previously, the Yamanaka factors (OCT4, SOX2, KLF4, with or without c-MYC: OSK(M)) have been shown to rejuvenate cells based on accurate predictors of age known as epigenetic clocks. Unfortunately, OSK(M) induces dangerous pluripotency pathways, making it unsuitable for therapeutic use. To overcome this therapeutic barrier, we screened for novel factors by optimising directly for age reversal rather than for pluripotency. We trained a transcriptomic ageing clock, unhindered by the low throughput of bulk DNA methylation assays, to enable a screen of unprecedented scale and granularity. Our platform identified SB000, the first single gene intervention to rejuvenate cells from multiple germ layers with efficacy rivalling the Yamanaka factors. Cells rejuvenated by SB000 retain their somatic identity, without evidence of pluripotency or loss of function. These results reveal that decoupling pluripotency from cell rejuvenation does not remove the ability to rejuvenate multiple cell types. This discovery paves the way for cell rejuvenation therapeutics that can be broadly applied across age-driven diseases...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,757
    edited June 11

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    I admit, Economic Reforms around 1900 are not something at the front of my mind * ! Enlightenment would be welcome.

    * Trusting you don't mean Edward the Confessor, when the Reform was the French coming over and burning it all down. Don't tell RefUK, or they will put that in Farage's kaleidoscope as a reason for resisting T'Evil EU.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,672

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    My wife won't let me grow a beard, but I have some secret sandals at the bottom of the wardrobe..
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976
    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    Maybe not in theory, in practice it absolutely is because there's no way to run a high growth economy with such a huge welfare state that encourages idleness.
    You don't need high growth to balance the books (we had a balanced budget in the 90s with a much smaller economy) I think you want a growing economy - or at least growing productivity and a stable demographic profile - for other reasons.

    And you don't need a welfare state that encourages idleness. Indeed, Universal Credit is pretty good at preventing that (it's the add-on benefits that cause issues). The bigger issue is pensioners feeling safe enough to retire in their mid-50s, so we lose 10 years of highly skilled and experienced work.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
  • MustaphaMondeoMustaphaMondeo Posts: 316
    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    Maybe not in theory, in practice it absolutely is because there's no way to run a high growth economy with such a huge welfare state that encourages idleness.
    That’s not really very aware of how people are and more wishful that you might hope.

    To make the most of opportunity you have to deal with the complexity causing disruption and the disconnection in people’s lives.

    My guess. You come from a privileged background.

    Our class system is part of the problem. We close down opportunities for all but the connected.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    After the last 14 years it’s really hard for a conservative to make a cogent case that we should trust them with the economy.
    Now I know that includes two huge events - covid and the Ukraine inflation but Tories hung 2007 on Gordon Brown/Labour for a decade, somewhat unfairly.

    I think some blend of contrition, setting out what it means to be conservative and a plan to make things better are what is required.

    And a lot of patience. The public isn’t listening yet.
    I am always amused when I hear that the Conservatives should be silent - seemingly on just about everything - because of "the last 14 years".

    That's not how politics works. The Conservatives can't simply stay mute for several years because they have history whilst the public debate continues without them.

    I agree with the rest of your plan and that's exactly what they should, and I don't think, are doing at the moment - because it's all about things like the ECHR, pensioner benefits and identity politics in little snippets that don't form any cohesive narrative. They are just ignored.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,724

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,199
    Morning all.

    A key problem witb that, is that the last government that ran under the banner of fiscal responsibility, via
    austerity, ended up doing the country more harm than good, across a range
    of social and economic areas.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,905
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    Maybe not in theory, in practice it absolutely is because there's no way to run a high growth economy with such a huge welfare state that encourages idleness.
    You don't need high growth to balance the books (we had a balanced budget in the 90s with a much smaller economy) I think you want a growing economy - or at least growing productivity and a stable demographic profile - for other reasons.

    And you don't need a welfare state that encourages idleness. Indeed, Universal Credit is pretty good at preventing that (it's the add-on benefits that cause issues). The bigger issue is pensioners feeling safe enough to retire in their mid-50s, so we lose 10 years of highly skilled and experienced work.
    Furthermore, that's not just about mistakes made about pensions from the fifties to about the turn of the millennium. Housing costs are so huge if you have to pay them, and so negligible if you don't, that it's far too easy to semi-retired once the mortgage is paid off.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    After the last 14 years it’s really hard for a conservative to make a cogent case that we should trust them with the economy.
    Now I know that includes two huge events - covid and the Ukraine inflation but Tories hung 2007 on Gordon Brown/Labour for a decade, somewhat unfairly.

    I think some blend of contrition, setting out what it means to be conservative and a plan to make things better are what is required.

    And a lot of patience. The public isn’t listening yet.
    I am always amused when I hear that the Conservatives should be silent - seemingly on just about everything - because of "the last 14 years".

    That's not how politics works. The Conservatives can't simply stay mute for several years because they have history whilst the public debate continues without them.

    I agree with the rest of your plan and that's exactly what they should, and I don't think, are doing at the moment - because it's all about things like the ECHR, pensioner benefits and identity politics in little snippets that don't form any cohesive narrative. They are just ignored.
    Exactly - they are silent because they have nothing to say. People do not know what the party stands for. Its record in government does not show the way because it had deviated way off line from what it was supposed to be.

    Scenario: Badenoch has an epiphany and wakes up realising that she isn’t a political genius after all. Humility kicks in. She brings in actual conservative economists and shapes a vision for the future of Britain and how the Conservatives would lead us there.

    Go talk about that. Smaller state, pro business, pro investment, a hand up not a hand out etc etc. A fair chunk of the initial conversation will be a mea culpa about how far you had strayed. And then it’s all about the new policy platform. Big. Bold. Visionary.

    Then you can be heard. Nobody wants to hear Ms Snippy sneering on about how DEI is the true problem in our economy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    And freezing hospital spending and redirecting to public health and primary care. Effectively a brutal assault on the Conservative's only remaining voter cohort.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,757

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    I linked to that yesterday. I'm quite pleased he seems to agree with what I said about it after the attack.
    One interesting feature of the Kerch Bridge is how shallow it is. The channel under the main span is only up to about 8m - which makes sense given the shallowness of the Sea of Azov, and is about 3m deeper than a competition diving pool.

    I'm inclined to the thought that it is really down to either taking out the decks, or sailing a boat through with several hundred tons of explosive and sinking it next to the pillars, then a big boom to take out as much as possible including the decks as well. If they can smuggle drones 3000 miles into Russia ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,241
    Nigelb said:

    This is a potentially enormous discovery, and (for now at least) it's British.

    A single factor for safer cellular rejuvenation

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.05.657370v1
    Ageing is a key driver of the major diseases afflicting the modern world. Slowing or reversing the ageing process would therefore drive significant and broad benefits to human health. Previously, the Yamanaka factors (OCT4, SOX2, KLF4, with or without c-MYC: OSK(M)) have been shown to rejuvenate cells based on accurate predictors of age known as epigenetic clocks. Unfortunately, OSK(M) induces dangerous pluripotency pathways, making it unsuitable for therapeutic use. To overcome this therapeutic barrier, we screened for novel factors by optimising directly for age reversal rather than for pluripotency. We trained a transcriptomic ageing clock, unhindered by the low throughput of bulk DNA methylation assays, to enable a screen of unprecedented scale and granularity. Our platform identified SB000, the first single gene intervention to rejuvenate cells from multiple germ layers with efficacy rivalling the Yamanaka factors. Cells rejuvenated by SB000 retain their somatic identity, without evidence of pluripotency or loss of function. These results reveal that decoupling pluripotency from cell rejuvenation does not remove the ability to rejuvenate multiple cell types. This discovery paves the way for cell rejuvenation therapeutics that can be broadly applied across age-driven diseases...

    The biotech that made the discovery is funded by a very successful British investment group set up during the Coalition government by ... Vince Cable.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-growth-fund-opens-for-business

    So, very much on topic.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,757
    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    And freezing hospital spending and redirecting to public health and primary care. Effectively a brutal assault on the Conservative's only remaining voter cohort.
    That's far too crude imo. Hospitals are heavily involved in preventative and public health work.

    And a shift to prevention / public health has been the direction for decades.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    Indeed. But if the policies aren't ever advocated in public debate how will we get there?
  • TazTaz Posts: 18,938
    So if our sainted NHS and defence get the lions share of the money what will councils get to help with the statutory obligations central govt foist on them but don’t fund.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424

    Morning all.

    A key problem witb that, is that the last government that ran under the banner of fiscal responsibility, via
    austerity, ended up doing the country more harm than good, across a range
    of social and economic areas.

    And it goes beyond them. Austerity is rightly seen as having done immense damage. But remember that the Coalition government spent *more* money than Labour had proposed had they won the 2010 election.

    LabCon have been stuck in group think for a few generations now. Fiddling around the edges whilst the body politic sinks slowly beneath.

    Spending money on things we need is a Good Thing. We don’t have that money - to pay for police officers to use a live example - because we’re spending more money mopping up the mess created by not paying for enough police officers.

    If the Home Office or DfE or DHSC don’t have enough money to pay for front line provision then cut the costs of the bullshit framework which is eating all the money. We need teachers, we don’t need expensive staff running businesses which run a handful of academies.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    The demographics issue is a bit overblown, mainly because we've had significant inward migration as you point out. We're not South Korea or Japan.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,628
    edited June 11

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,527
    edited June 11

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    The problem is also that the costs of compliance - and the culture of over-regulation - is now incredibly deeply embedded at the heart of the state. This has been done for largely altruistic reasons over the years (though some of it performative governance) but it has a negative effect. We have lost a balanced relationship with risk, and have gained an overconfidence in what government can (or should) do. Covid and the energy crisis has not helped this.

    We can afford to pay people properly, cut regulation and have a fully functioning and stable society, but that requires rewiring the public mindset, and I am afraid little can be done in that area now without significant societal upheaval similar to the 1980s.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976
    edited June 11
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    And freezing hospital spending and redirecting to public health and primary care. Effectively a brutal assault on the Conservative's only remaining voter cohort.
    That's far too crude imo. Hospitals are heavily involved in preventative and public health work.

    And a shift to prevention / public health has been the direction for decades.
    Yes, you're right about some hospital work being in that area - but there is serious definition creep when it comes to preventative policy. Preventing someone's Type 2 diabetes from killing them is sometimes called secondary or tertiary prevention.

    What you want is primary prevention - an environment where people's diets and lifestyle don't lead to it in the first place. Otherwise, NHS spending will continue to explode.

    (I'm not convinced that public health has been increasing as a proportion of spending. My understanding was it's been cut significantly - I'll check later once I've sorted my emails out)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,142

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    NHS is down to lib/con coalition running up the waiting lists to "save money" in austerity. The delayed treatment required more resources so it all spiralled outwards.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424
    Dopermean said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    NHS is down to lib/con coalition running up the waiting lists to "save money" in austerity. The delayed treatment required more resources so it all spiralled outwards.
    Yep. Cut to save money which costs more money.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043
    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    And freezing hospital spending and redirecting to public health and primary care. Effectively a brutal assault on the Conservative's only remaining voter cohort.
    That's far too crude imo. Hospitals are heavily involved in preventative and public health work.

    And a shift to prevention / public health has been the direction for decades.
    A Vitality type scheme might actually pay for itself.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976
    edited June 11
    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    France/Netherlands/Sweden all have a signifcantly higher tax burden than we do, and their economies have on a per capita basis grown faster than ours over the last 10 years. There isn't much of a correlation but the idea a low tax economy is the only one that can grow is wrong.

    It's probably what we tax and what we spend on that is the issue.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586
    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    I agree with you.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,839
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    I linked to that yesterday. I'm quite pleased he seems to agree with what I said about it after the attack.
    One interesting feature of the Kerch Bridge is how shallow it is. The channel under the main span is only up to about 8m - which makes sense given the shallowness of the Sea of Azov, and is about 3m deeper than a competition diving pool.

    I'm inclined to the thought that it is really down to either taking out the decks, or sailing a boat through with several hundred tons of explosive and sinking it next to the pillars, then a big boom to take out as much as possible including the decks as well. If they can smuggle drones 3000 miles into Russia ...
    You want to get the connections, which tend to be the weakest points. Say he point where deck meets pier, or where the arch elements meet the deck. But that requires a demo team or some very accurately placed drones.

    Yes, a massive explosion next to a pier could bring it down. But it would need to be much more than 1100kg. And we should also remember it is *two* bridges, not one. You could bring down the road bridge and still leave the rail bridge. Bringing down both is even more difficult - though the initial truck explosion did damage both.

    Bridges can be very weak in certain circumstances - see the Baltimore collapse, when a bridge got a nudge from a container ship. But generally they are much stronger than people make out. And sadly in the case of the Kerch Bridge, 'quality' Russian engineering apparently caused them to have a massive safety factor in the pile design. :(

    (There is one other thing to consider: ice. The Soviets apparently built a much smaller bridge across the strait, but that was brought down by floating ice. I can imagine the pile system has also been designed to deal with that - which might be why the dolphins alongside the pier are so massive.)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,724
    Taz said:

    So if our sainted NHS and defence get the lions share of the money what will councils get to help with the statutory obligations central govt foist on them but don’t fund.

    What will councils get ?

    The blame.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,757
    edited June 11

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    Maybe not in theory, in practice it absolutely is because there's no way to run a high growth economy with such a huge welfare state that encourages idleness.
    You don't need high growth to balance the books (we had a balanced budget in the 90s with a much smaller economy) I think you want a growing economy - or at least growing productivity and a stable demographic profile - for other reasons.

    And you don't need a welfare state that encourages idleness. Indeed, Universal Credit is pretty good at preventing that (it's the add-on benefits that cause issues). The bigger issue is pensioners feeling safe enough to retire in their mid-50s, so we lose 10 years of highly skilled and experienced work.
    Furthermore, that's not just about mistakes made about pensions from the fifties to about the turn of the millennium. Housing costs are so huge if you have to pay them, and so negligible if you don't, that it's far too easy to semi-retired once the mortgage is paid off.
    From what I understand, they will be addressing housing costs via such things as building on insulation programmes. These have reduced the energy use of an average house significantly over time - iirc it is something like a third over 25 years. But which the Cons in general somewhat let languish with their obsession about applying over-complicated private finance systems such as the Green Deal.

    That's separate from purchase costs and prices, which is mainly to do with tax reform and to stop shovelling free money to the wealthier parts of society, and Council Tax reform.

    The one that I want to see is renewed and increased commitment to green energy, which amongst other things will vastly help with strategic autonomy - so Mr Trump, Mr Putin, and their successors will have less of a dependent Europe to exploit - and corresponding systems to support it such as SMR.

    I think something was said about that yesterday. I keep seeing people saying it will be in Notts, which is obviously the correct place to put it, but afaics it is South Yorkshire (Doncaster) and Derby.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    The problem is also that the costs of compliance - and the culture of over-regulation - is now incredibly deeply embedded at the heart of the state. This has been done for largely altruistic reasons over the years (though some of it performative governance) but it has a negative effect. We have lost a balanced relationship with risk, and have gained an overconfidence in what government can (or should) do. Covid and the energy crisis has not helped this.

    We can afford to pay people properly, cut regulation and have a fully functioning and stable society, but that requires rewiring the public mindset, and I am afraid little can be done in that area now without significant societal upheaval similar to the 1980s.
    Have faith. We are going to get a Reform UK government - or a mainstream party grows a pair and proposes reforms that actually work and they win.

    The status quo is no longer sustainable. People are absolutely sick of it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,797

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,199
    Dopermean said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    NHS is down to lib/con coalition running up the waiting lists to "save money" in austerity. The delayed treatment required more resources so it all spiralled outwards.
    Yes, and that' a typical long--term cost of what the Tories were advertising at that time as fiscal responsible.

    There are many others, too, ofcourse.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586
    Dopermean said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    NHS is down to lib/con coalition running up the waiting lists to "save money" in austerity. The delayed treatment required more resources so it all spiralled outwards.
    Let's not forget 75-80% of the NHS is staffing and they aren't exactly shy of striking for very large salary increases and generous pension entitlements.

    You can't expect Unions not to advocate vociferously for the members they represent, and fight for the best deal, but that's not the only interest here.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    I linked to that yesterday. I'm quite pleased he seems to agree with what I said about it after the attack.
    One interesting feature of the Kerch Bridge is how shallow it is. The channel under the main span is only up to about 8m - which makes sense given the shallowness of the Sea of Azov, and is about 3m deeper than a competition diving pool.

    I'm inclined to the thought that it is really down to either taking out the decks, or sailing a boat through with several hundred tons of explosive and sinking it next to the pillars, then a big boom to take out as much as possible including the decks as well. If they can smuggle drones 3000 miles into Russia ...
    {The ghost of Hector Charles Bywater carrying a copy of The Great Pacific War has entered the chat}
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,626
    Good morning, my fellow Myrmidons.

    Turns out the F1 2026 calendar has a couple of fun clashes. Canada is on the same day as the Indy 500, and Spa clashes with the World Cup Final.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,724

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    Indeed. But if the policies aren't ever advocated in public debate how will we get there?
    After the economy crashes and they are forced upon the country.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,931
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    And freezing hospital spending and redirecting to public health and primary care. Effectively a brutal assault on the Conservative's only remaining voter cohort.
    That's far too crude imo. Hospitals are heavily involved in preventative and public health work.

    And a shift to prevention / public health has been the direction for decades.
    Yes, you're right about some hospital work being in that area - but there is serious definition creep when it comes to preventative policy. Preventing someone's Type 2 diabetes from killing them is sometimes called secondary or tertiary prevention.

    What you want is primary prevention - an environment where people's diets and lifestyle don't lead to it in the first place. Otherwise, NHS spending will continue to explode.

    (I'm not convinced that public health has been increasing as a proportion of spending. My understanding was it's been cut significantly - I'll check later once I've sorted my emails out)
    Yes, rhetoric doesn't match reality. We were promised more emphasis on public health then NHS England was abolished, despite being the vehicle for public health.

    We are very far from the vision of the Marmot report of 2010.

    https://www.instituteofhealthequity.org/resources-reports/fair-society-healthy-lives-the-marmot-review
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,241
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    And freezing hospital spending and redirecting to public health and primary care. Effectively a brutal assault on the Conservative's only remaining voter cohort.
    That's far too crude imo. Hospitals are heavily involved in preventative and public health work.

    And a shift to prevention / public health has been the direction for decades.
    Yes, you're right about some hospital work being in that area - but there is serious definition creep when it comes to preventative policy. Preventing someone's Type 2 diabetes from killing them is sometimes called secondary or tertiary prevention.

    What you want is primary prevention - an environment where people's diets and lifestyle don't lead to it in the first place. Otherwise, NHS spending will continue to explode.

    (I'm not convinced that public health has been increasing as a proportion of spending. My understanding was it's been cut significantly - I'll check later once I've sorted my emails out)
    Some of the new targeted NHS programs - for example the supervised extreme diet (800 cal per day for three months) for pre-diabetics - are very good indeed.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,183
    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    Maybe not in theory, in practice it absolutely is because there's no way to run a high growth economy with such a huge welfare state that encourages idleness.
    Doesn't that fall the reproducibility test? Norway and Denmark have both run social democratic policies for a long time without it inducing those issues.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark has immigration laws that, if applied in the UK, you'd consider far-right.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043

    Dopermean said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    NHS is down to lib/con coalition running up the waiting lists to "save money" in austerity. The delayed treatment required more resources so it all spiralled outwards.
    Let's not forget 75-80% of the NHS is staffing and they aren't exactly shy of striking for very large salary increases and generous pension entitlements.

    You can't expect Unions not to advocate vociferously for the members they represent, and fight for the best deal, but that's not the only interest here.
    I will (re) predict here, that if a future government managed to eliminate agency working in the NHS by hiring enough staff, the first result would be a demand for more pay. Many medical staff use agency work to top up their income.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424
    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    We need to cut spending - we both agree on that. The challenge is what we cut. I suspect we disagree.

    We have front line provision in health and education where we spend record amounts and get increasingly crisis-driven crap services. With the front line staff now being blamed for not wanting to work in this highly stressful environment on crap pay and conditions.

    What would I cut? The “market”. Scrap all of the waste and duplication and cost of academies and trusts. Where we now have armies of managers and administrators and contract managers delivering so-called “choice” where the outcomes on offer are all crap.

    What do the right want to cut? The actual front-line provision. Less doctors and teachers on poorer pay. Take their pensions, make their working lives even less bearable, they’ll work harder.

    I am a capitalist. Competition is good. But not in public services where the competitive structure has replaced the actual service as the reason the thing exists. Why does everything cost more in education and the NHS? Because we have an army of procurement managers buying tiny amounts in competition with each other. Tesco doesn’t store managers buy beans from Heinz - it buys them centrally. Yet we have all these endless mini businesses with all that cost buying little and paying lots.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,183
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,088
    Nigelb said:

    This is a potentially enormous discovery, and (for now at least) it's British.

    A single factor for safer cellular rejuvenation

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.05.657370v1
    [details snipped]

    British for now. This from yesterday:-

    Ouch: Three tech firms bail out of the UK in a single day
    ...
    Alphawave, a rare example of a semiconductor company listed in the UK, has moved another step closer to being taken over by US rival Qualcomm after the board recommended the deal to shareholders based on a valuation of just under £2bn.

    Then came news that the UK listed precision equipment specialist Spectris received a takeover bid from US private equity outfit Advent, valuing the firm at around £3.5bn. Open for business, indeed.

    Meanwhile, an Oxford university spinout, quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, has agreed to a $1.1bn takeover by US-based rival IonQ. This trio of tech takeovers comes just days after UK fintech darling Wise announced it would shift its primary listing to the US in search of growth.
    ...
    This isn’t a problem of Starmer’s making, but it’s getting worse on his watch and it must be confronted.

    https://www.cityam.com/three-tech-firms-bail-out-of-the-uk-in-a-single-day/
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,199

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    The Chinese approach that made lead the world in EV is telling.

    So far from the tried post-Thatcherite mantras about not picking winners, they asked about 20 companies to come up with the most efficient and
    cost-effective blueprint, and sprayed billions at the winners.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    I linked to that yesterday. I'm quite pleased he seems to agree with what I said about it after the attack.
    One interesting feature of the Kerch Bridge is how shallow it is. The channel under the main span is only up to about 8m - which makes sense given the shallowness of the Sea of Azov, and is about 3m deeper than a competition diving pool.

    I'm inclined to the thought that it is really down to either taking out the decks, or sailing a boat through with several hundred tons of explosive and sinking it next to the pillars, then a big boom to take out as much as possible including the decks as well. If they can smuggle drones 3000 miles into Russia ...
    You want to get the connections, which tend to be the weakest points. Say he point where deck meets pier, or where the arch elements meet the deck. But that requires a demo team or some very accurately placed drones.

    Yes, a massive explosion next to a pier could bring it down. But it would need to be much more than 1100kg. And we should also remember it is *two* bridges, not one. You could bring down the road bridge and still leave the rail bridge. Bringing down both is even more difficult - though the initial truck explosion did damage both.

    Bridges can be very weak in certain circumstances - see the Baltimore collapse, when a bridge got a nudge from a container ship. But generally they are much stronger than people make out. And sadly in the case of the Kerch Bridge, 'quality' Russian engineering apparently caused them to have a massive safety factor in the pile design. :(

    (There is one other thing to consider: ice. The Soviets apparently built a much smaller bridge across the strait, but that was brought down by floating ice. I can imagine the pile system has also been designed to deal with that - which might be why the dolphins alongside the pier are so massive.)
    You’d be looking, I think, either at epic scale shaped charges, and/or explosions so big that they excavate a crater big enough to render the dolphins etc moot.

    And even then, a military bridging system could fill 50m of gap in a few hours.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Interesting vid from a structural engineer of civil engineering foundations evaluating the strength of the Kerch Bridge.

    TLDR: it was build several times stronger than normally seen as necessary, so will be very difficult to damage the foundations to the point it become4s unusable or maybe even requires repair.

    Delightfully, the Youtuber is called Casey Jones.

    https://www.youtube.com/@CaseyJones-Engineer

    I linked to that yesterday. I'm quite pleased he seems to agree with what I said about it after the attack.
    One interesting feature of the Kerch Bridge is how shallow it is. The channel under the main span is only up to about 8m - which makes sense given the shallowness of the Sea of Azov, and is about 3m deeper than a competition diving pool.

    I'm inclined to the thought that it is really down to either taking out the decks, or sailing a boat through with several hundred tons of explosive and sinking it next to the pillars, then a big boom to take out as much as possible including the decks as well. If they can smuggle drones 3000 miles into Russia ...
    You want to get the connections, which tend to be the weakest points. Say he point where deck meets pier, or where the arch elements meet the deck. But that requires a demo team or some very accurately placed drones.

    Yes, a massive explosion next to a pier could bring it down. But it would need to be much more than 1100kg. And we should also remember it is *two* bridges, not one. You could bring down the road bridge and still leave the rail bridge. Bringing down both is even more difficult - though the initial truck explosion did damage both.

    Bridges can be very weak in certain circumstances - see the Baltimore collapse, when a bridge got a nudge from a container ship. But generally they are much stronger than people make out. And sadly in the case of the Kerch Bridge, 'quality' Russian engineering apparently caused them to have a massive safety factor in the pile design. :(

    (There is one other thing to consider: ice. The Soviets apparently built a much smaller bridge across the strait, but that was brought down by floating ice. I can imagine the pile system has also been designed to deal with that - which might be why the dolphins alongside the pier are so massive.)
    You’d be looking, I think, either at epic scale shaped charges, and/or explosions so big that they excavate a crater big enough to render the dolphins etc moot.

    And even then, a military bridging system could fill 100m of gap in a few hours.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,199
    That *made them* lead the world, that should say there.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,424

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,931

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    The problem is also that the costs of compliance - and the culture of over-regulation - is now incredibly deeply embedded at the heart of the state. This has been done for largely altruistic reasons over the years (though some of it performative governance) but it has a negative effect. We have lost a balanced relationship with risk, and have gained an overconfidence in what government can (or should) do. Covid and the energy crisis has not helped this.

    We can afford to pay people properly, cut regulation and have a fully functioning and stable society, but that requires rewiring the public mindset, and I am afraid little can be done in that area now without significant societal upheaval similar to the 1980s.
    Have faith. We are going to get a Reform UK government - or a mainstream party grows a pair and proposes reforms that actually work and they win.

    The status quo is no longer sustainable. People are absolutely sick of it.
    Well, people say they are sick of it, but then we see the furore when WFP was cut.

    People want services that other people use to be cut, not ones that they use themselves.

    The problem is that a very high proportion of spending is on a small minority of people. The 10% of elderly in institutional social care, children with major physical, behavioral and other needs, the 100 000 convicts. Most of us don't come into contact with these, so we see the money as wasted. But if we cut these, what do we expect instead? Should we leave people in the snow to die instead?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,241

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Its easier to advocate fiscal responsibility in theory than when it requires advocating actual policies.

    To advocate fiscal responsibility requires advocating the end of the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and pension credits.

    Plus an increase in the state retirement age to 70 and the ending of DB pensions in the public sector.

    It also requires advocating the reform and increase of council tax, especially for the more expensive properties.
    Indeed. But if the policies aren't ever advocated in public debate how will we get there?
    After the economy crashes and they are forced upon the country.
    I was rather hoping we'd avoid the Greece scenario.
    But if we're in a situation where Reform become the next government, that's quite likely.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,797
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
    People will not accept the high taxes necessary for welfare states if they feel they are being abused by outsiders. This is a known human phenomenon

    If you want social democracy then you either have low immigration or you have incredibly strict rules - enforced - around immigration and who gets what

    Britain now has the worst of all worlds. See Westminster council giving away central london council housing for life - when 2/3 of the people benefiting were born overseas

    If you want to brew civil unrest - keep doing THAT
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
    The problem is that “borrow to invest” = “borrow to prop things up”. No one believes that any politician has internal fiscal discipline anymore.

    So that will simply create another Truss Event.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,931

    Dopermean said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    NHS is down to lib/con coalition running up the waiting lists to "save money" in austerity. The delayed treatment required more resources so it all spiralled outwards.
    Let's not forget 75-80% of the NHS is staffing and they aren't exactly shy of striking for very large salary increases and generous pension entitlements.

    You can't expect Unions not to advocate vociferously for the members they represent, and fight for the best deal, but that's not the only interest here.
    I will (re) predict here, that if a future government managed to eliminate agency working in the NHS by hiring enough staff, the first result would be a demand for more pay. Many medical staff use agency work to top up their income.
    Agency rates are the real market rates for the job. It's market forces in action.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
    And it's possible to run the cause and effects other way.

    Why did BoJo turn the immigration dial up to eleven? Largely because the economy would have been in an even bigger mess if he hadn't.

    You want a society that you find agreeable? Fine. You have to be rich enough to earn it, and Britain hasn't done that for ages.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,043
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    Being a social democrat and wanting the government to be fiscally responsible aren't exclusive.
    No, but - if spending cuts aren't part of the mix - that means the Liberal Democrats will end up advocating for much higher taxes.

    There isn't much of a political space for that at the expense of the Conservatives.
    We are spending money on the wrong things. We have persuaded ourselves that we can’t afford to pay for teachers and medics and yet cannot function without them. So we pay more for short term cover and crisis management. “That’s a different budget” I’ve been sternly told when I pointed out that the “cut” cost more than it saved. Madness!

    How is it that we tip record amounts into things like the NHS only for front-line healthcare to be starved of cash? Why is nobody willing to face the truth - the system is grossly inefficient and a significant part is the “marketised” structure installed under successive LabCon governments. Same in education.

    We’re spending more. And getting less. The cut that is needed is to the money which evaporates before it gets to the actual service. Hire more teachers. Dismantle the 704 separate academy businesses.
    The problem is also that the costs of compliance - and the culture of over-regulation - is now incredibly deeply embedded at the heart of the state. This has been done for largely altruistic reasons over the years (though some of it performative governance) but it has a negative effect. We have lost a balanced relationship with risk, and have gained an overconfidence in what government can (or should) do. Covid and the energy crisis has not helped this.

    We can afford to pay people properly, cut regulation and have a fully functioning and stable society, but that requires rewiring the public mindset, and I am afraid little can be done in that area now without significant societal upheaval similar to the 1980s.
    Have faith. We are going to get a Reform UK government - or a mainstream party grows a pair and proposes reforms that actually work and they win.

    The status quo is no longer sustainable. People are absolutely sick of it.
    Well, people say they are sick of it, but then we see the furore when WFP was cut.

    People want services that other people use to be cut, not ones that they use themselves.

    The problem is that a very high proportion of spending is on a small minority of people. The 10% of elderly in institutional social care, children with major physical, behavioral and other needs, the 100 000 convicts. Most of us don't come into contact with these, so we see the money as wasted. But if we cut these, what do we expect instead? Should we leave people in the snow to die instead?
    Things will not change until we go Full Argentina. Which won’t happen for a couple of decades, at least.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,241

    That *made them* lead the world, that should say there.

    TBF the other thing which enabled that was the US and European companies offshoring large chunks of their manufacturing, over several decades.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,626

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
    The problem is that “borrow to invest” = “borrow to prop things up”. No one believes that any politician has internal fiscal discipline anymore.

    So that will simply create another Truss Event.
    A lack of impulse control and self-discipline to suffer short term difficulty for long term gain are problems for us (and elsewhere). It's also why AI art, text, and other uses are so popular. The convenience is immense.

    But we're heading for a world in which precious few people learn how to create amazing paintings and sketches because a soulless machine can spew out something in moments.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,705

    Nigelb said:

    This is a potentially enormous discovery, and (for now at least) it's British.

    A single factor for safer cellular rejuvenation

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.05.657370v1
    [details snipped]

    British for now. This from yesterday:-

    Ouch: Three tech firms bail out of the UK in a single day
    ...
    Alphawave, a rare example of a semiconductor company listed in the UK, has moved another step closer to being taken over by US rival Qualcomm after the board recommended the deal to shareholders based on a valuation of just under £2bn.

    Then came news that the UK listed precision equipment specialist Spectris received a takeover bid from US private equity outfit Advent, valuing the firm at around £3.5bn. Open for business, indeed.

    Meanwhile, an Oxford university spinout, quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, has agreed to a $1.1bn takeover by US-based rival IonQ. This trio of tech takeovers comes just days after UK fintech darling Wise announced it would shift its primary listing to the US in search of growth.
    ...
    This isn’t a problem of Starmer’s making, but it’s getting worse on his watch and it must be confronted.

    https://www.cityam.com/three-tech-firms-bail-out-of-the-uk-in-a-single-day/
    If I was a US tech company, I’d be looking to buy a UK company given the unstable situation in the US with tariffs and big cuts to research spending.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,976

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
    The problem is that “borrow to invest” = “borrow to prop things up”. No one believes that any politician has internal fiscal discipline anymore.

    So that will simply create another Truss Event.
    Agree - I disagreed with BartholomewRoberts definition of investment in that previous debate - it was far too narrow.

    But from a political perspective something that restrictive is essential to ensure the markets have confidence in the definition. Will you be able to literally touch that investment in 10 years time?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,819
    @fintwitter.bsky.social‬

    MUSK: I REGRET SOME OF MY POSTS ABOUT PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP LAST WEEK. THEY WENT TOO FAR
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,905

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
    It's the shift from Maggie's father to her son. From being a party of people running businesses that make and do things to one of the (much more profitable) business of skimming 1% as money passes over your desk.

    I don't like it much.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,682
    Morning all :)

    At least we’re talking about the substantive issues this morning.

    Like many others, I’d prefer a much reduced deficit and reduced borrowing but the impact of reducing public services is disproportionately felt by those with less and generally not those demanding either overt tax cuts or the euphemism of “supply side reforms”.

    Yet the Lafferites have a valid point - how do we get long term sustainable growth? Anyone can buy a boom and bust but long term growth? It’s often come from innovation and ingenuity which often means new jobs create those which no longer exist.

    We remain a wealthy country and many, though by no means all, live a comfortable existence. Land Value Taxation has to be on the horizon as must a recognition we must do more to get groups such as carers and those with physical disabilities into work and that requires all sectors to look at how they operate.

    We also need to redouble our efforts to mitigate long term sickness impact - there is ill health which is a barrier to work and ill health which isn’t.

    There’s also another term not used much these days - education. Training and improving the skills of existing workers seems an obvious step.

    If we are determined to wean ourselves off using cheap imported labour (as distinct from skilled imported labour), we need to rethink on getting our economically inactive back into some form of productive employment and that requires much more carrot than stick.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,199

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
    The problem is that “borrow to invest” = “borrow to prop things up”. No one believes that any politician has internal fiscal discipline anymore.

    So that will simply create another Truss Event.
    A lack of impulse control and self-discipline to suffer short term difficulty for long term gain are problems for us (and elsewhere). It's also why AI art, text, and other uses are so popular. The convenience is immense.

    But we're heading for a world in which precious few people learn how to create amazing paintings and sketches because a soulless machine can spew out something in moments.
    An interesting research paper from Apple this week that billion-dollar LLM's can't complete a puzzle that seven year olds can do, reminds again that we should be wary of the huge, QE-fuelled hyped around AI, I very much think.

    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/apple-says-generative-ai-cannot-think-like-a-human-research-paper-pours-cold-water-on-reasoning-models

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,315
    Eabhal said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    France/Netherlands/Sweden all have a signifcantly higher tax burden than we do, and their economies have on a per capita basis grown faster than ours over the last 10 years. There isn't much of a correlation but the idea a low tax economy is the only one that can grow is wrong.

    It's probably what we tax and what we spend on that is the issue.
    There's also space for sensible changes to regulation of the economy, to make productive business investment easier, and to discourage investment being funnelled into rentier capitalism. Like, FFS, why is leasehold still a thing in England?

    There's so much more that could be done that isn't about tax or spending.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,615
    Eabhal said:

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    1 is bigger than 2. We remain a huge economy which outside investors want to spend money in. Give them things to invest in which deliver a clear ROI and debt is manageable.

    Debt interest is a problem predominantly because our economic output per worker is poor and our growth is sluggish. Invest to drive productivity and you fix 1 and 2.

    But “debt” gets used as the excuse for why we can’t afford police officers and doctors and teachers and roads and so we slide further into the mire.

    China in building roads globally. We can’t because everything costs £1bazillion per mile in this wretched place. We can’t - like china - invest in positive ROI things like transport. But it needs to be a long term plan and we need to scrap the high cost barriers.

    A starter for 10. Create regional road building units. Competitively tendered to experienced construction companies who have to recruit and train local people as part of their contract. With a rolling 10 year program to improve and build new roads. positive ROI all the way through - so they pay for themselves - and we get an army of trained and productive construction workers which again we need.
    Debt is a reality I'm afraid, and not an excuse. It can't simply be waved away.

    I see China come up a lot. Fine, if you don't want health and safety, sustainability, very lax attitudes to public safety, or any private property or democratic rights.

    I agree, we could then get a lot done rather quickly. At a cost, mind - one we wouldn't like.
    I’m not suggesting we ignore the debt. far from it - we need to shrink it. But we have to stop being afraid of it. We say we can’t afford teachers because of the debt. So cut teacher numbers and pay MORE for supply cover and mopping up the chaos. We need police officers but can’t afford those either. Crime is free apparently.

    I want to train and hire more police and teachers and medics. that will allow us to take an axe to much of the money bleeding out the system in administrative waste. Spend a little more now invested properly to then cut spending long term.

    Debt is going up right now, and if we cut the wrong things it will keep going up. We need to borrow to invest. And then the return on that vestment is slashing costs - and debt - as that investment pays out. Like a retail business borrowing to invest in new fridges which slash its energy costs.

    You are Tories. Why has investment ceased to be a thing you believe in? Not you personally, your political movement. I don’t get it.
    The problem is that “borrow to invest” = “borrow to prop things up”. No one believes that any politician has internal fiscal discipline anymore.

    So that will simply create another Truss Event.
    Agree - I disagreed with BartholomewRoberts definition of investment in that previous debate - it was far too narrow.

    But from a political perspective something that restrictive is essential to ensure the markets have confidence in the definition. Will you be able to literally touch that investment in 10 years time?
    Well, absolutely, that's what investment is. Something that is still there in years time.

    The reason you can borrow to invest, entirely legitimately, is that you can put the depreciation into your accounts rather than the entire expenditure.

    Salaries for ongoing staff are not depreciated.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 994
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
    People will not accept the high taxes necessary for welfare states if they feel they are being abused by outsiders. This is a known human phenomenon

    If you want social democracy then you either have low immigration or you have incredibly strict rules - enforced - around immigration and who gets what

    Britain now has the worst of all worlds. See Westminster council giving away central london council housing for life - when 2/3 of the people benefiting were born overseas

    If you want to brew civil unrest - keep doing THAT
    There's also fairness from the other end though. One of the consequences of Blair era welfare reforms was that a lot of objectively well off people started getting benefits. Winter Fuel Allowance and Child Benefit being two examples. When I worked a dead end retail job on a Sunday I used to sit on the bus and watch all of the well to do pensioners using their free bus pass to go into Cambridge for breakfast and a morning's shopping. Sometimes I was the only one who paid for a ticket. Then, when a government tries to means test things they get accused of attacking pensioners or children.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,547
    Where is the Margaret Thatcher of our days? https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1048067852070940&vanity=thegrocerdaughter

    The grocers daughter speech was derided for years by those who claimed it was so much more complicated than that, the sort of people who got us into this current mess. The truth is, it really isn’t. Pretending that there is some infinite source of other people’s money, that is the menace. And I don’t see any acknowledgement of that from any of our parties, mainstream or Reform.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,199

    Nigelb said:

    This is a potentially enormous discovery, and (for now at least) it's British.

    A single factor for safer cellular rejuvenation

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.05.657370v1
    [details snipped]

    British for now. This from yesterday:-

    Ouch: Three tech firms bail out of the UK in a single day
    ...
    Alphawave, a rare example of a semiconductor company listed in the UK, has moved another step closer to being taken over by US rival Qualcomm after the board recommended the deal to shareholders based on a valuation of just under £2bn.

    Then came news that the UK listed precision equipment specialist Spectris received a takeover bid from US private equity outfit Advent, valuing the firm at around £3.5bn. Open for business, indeed.

    Meanwhile, an Oxford university spinout, quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, has agreed to a $1.1bn takeover by US-based rival IonQ. This trio of tech takeovers comes just days after UK fintech darling Wise announced it would shift its primary listing to the US in search of growth.
    ...
    This isn’t a problem of Starmer’s making, but it’s getting worse on his watch and it must be confronted.

    https://www.cityam.com/three-tech-firms-bail-out-of-the-uk-in-a-single-day/
    If I was a US tech company, I’d be looking to buy a UK company given the unstable situation in the US with tariffs and big cuts to research spending.
    The buyout of British tech firms by US money is probably one of the single biggest factors in our current economic situation, as Will Hutton and others have well documented. Starmer still seems wedded to the failed Thatcherite mantras in some areas.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,626
    Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
    People will not accept the high taxes necessary for welfare states if they feel they are being abused by outsiders. This is a known human phenomenon

    If you want social democracy then you either have low immigration or you have incredibly strict rules - enforced - around immigration and who gets what

    Britain now has the worst of all worlds. See Westminster council giving away central london council housing for life - when 2/3 of the people benefiting were born overseas

    If you want to brew civil unrest - keep doing THAT
    There's also fairness from the other end though. One of the consequences of Blair era welfare reforms was that a lot of objectively well off people started getting benefits. Winter Fuel Allowance and Child Benefit being two examples. When I worked a dead end retail job on a Sunday I used to sit on the bus and watch all of the well to do pensioners using their free bus pass to go into Cambridge for breakfast and a morning's shopping. Sometimes I was the only one who paid for a ticket. Then, when a government tries to means test things they get accused of attacking pensioners or children.
    People remember slights more than gifts.

    The Government actions on WFA has been a masterclass in politically screwing up while at the same time achieving almost no useful policy outcomes (saving cash in this cash).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,315

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    The demographics and debt are two problems that go hand-in-hand, of course. Britain's post-WWII debt burden was much easier to manage because the demographics were favourable.

    That's one reason why many British governments have ended up being pro-immigration - the economic models show that it makes handling the debt burden easier.

    The whole issue of debt in a global economy when the global population starts to shrink is going to cause all sorts of difficulties later in the century. Somehow we need to get ahead of those problems.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,615
    The one credible "reform" that Reform should make if they were ever to get into power is to switch the emphasis on Budget Day etc from "GDP Growth" (or decline) to "GDP per capita growth" (or decline).
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,654
    A couple of comments from the article and the comments:

    1) It is not at all clear to me that the economy is broken. As a GDP we remain 6th in the world. There are imbalances and problems but we remain as a country OK. GDP per capita is comparable with France and Germany. We are talking ourselves down. There are political and redistributist solutions to many of the messes.

    The starting point for serious discussion should not be: 'We are a broken third world disaster zone'. We aren't.

    2) I don't support Reform, on competence grounds and on then grounds of the company they keep. And some other reasons. But it is delusional to think that they plan to enter 2029 with a Trussplus manifesto. We have to wait and see but a certainty is that they will produce a centrist, socially conservative, gimmick filled, as costed as any other party, social democrat, high tax, high spend programme, reflecting very precisely the socially conservative welfarist opinions of the people of Clacton.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,615
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    At least we’re talking about the substantive issues this morning.

    Like many others, I’d prefer a much reduced deficit and reduced borrowing but the impact of reducing public services is disproportionately felt by those with less and generally not those demanding either overt tax cuts or the euphemism of “supply side reforms”.

    Yet the Lafferites have a valid point - how do we get long term sustainable growth? Anyone can buy a boom and bust but long term growth? It’s often come from innovation and ingenuity which often means new jobs create those which no longer exist.

    We remain a wealthy country and many, though by no means all, live a comfortable existence. Land Value Taxation has to be on the horizon as must a recognition we must do more to get groups such as carers and those with physical disabilities into work and that requires all sectors to look at how they operate.

    We also need to redouble our efforts to mitigate long term sickness impact - there is ill health which is a barrier to work and ill health which isn’t.

    There’s also another term not used much these days - education. Training and improving the skills of existing workers seems an obvious step.

    If we are determined to wean ourselves off using cheap imported labour (as distinct from skilled imported labour), we need to rethink on getting our economically inactive back into some form of productive employment and that requires much more carrot than stick.

    How?

    Don't tax poor people close to 100% if they work more than 18-20 hours per week.

    Get people to work full time rather than part time, and able to keep more of their money they earn.

    The state gets more in taxes and pays less in benefits, even if it doesn't get 100% of the effort people put in.

    Laffer Curve in action. And the right thing to do.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 994

    Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
    People will not accept the high taxes necessary for welfare states if they feel they are being abused by outsiders. This is a known human phenomenon

    If you want social democracy then you either have low immigration or you have incredibly strict rules - enforced - around immigration and who gets what

    Britain now has the worst of all worlds. See Westminster council giving away central london council housing for life - when 2/3 of the people benefiting were born overseas

    If you want to brew civil unrest - keep doing THAT
    There's also fairness from the other end though. One of the consequences of Blair era welfare reforms was that a lot of objectively well off people started getting benefits. Winter Fuel Allowance and Child Benefit being two examples. When I worked a dead end retail job on a Sunday I used to sit on the bus and watch all of the well to do pensioners using their free bus pass to go into Cambridge for breakfast and a morning's shopping. Sometimes I was the only one who paid for a ticket. Then, when a government tries to means test things they get accused of attacking pensioners or children.
    People remember slights more than gifts.

    The Government actions on WFA has been a masterclass in politically screwing up while at the same time achieving almost no useful policy outcomes (saving cash in this cash).
    I agree that it was badly handled but if you're going to try and rebuild trust in the benefits system then it needs to be spread evenly regardless of how much it raises. People who don't need benefits shouldn't get them and that includes pensioners. It might be cheaper and more politically expedient in the short term just to keep paying the money but that's not the point.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,350
    Morning all.
    Bit of pre cash in Rachels Attic polling from MiC, little change (6 to 9 Jun)
    Ref 28 (=)
    Lab 24 (+1)
    Con 20 (-1)
    LD 14 (=)
    Green 7 (-1)
    SNP 3 (+1)

    All very stable lately
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    There's a natural space here for the Conservatives to grab the mantle of fiscal responsibility from Reform and Labour, as Matthew Parris wrote over the weekend. However, Kemi seems more interested in picking (and losing) peripheral fights on free speech and culture.

    If they don't, then the Liberal Democrats in theory could move into this space - but that'd require them to drop much of the social democrat bit, and given the party is built on beards and sandals that might be a stretch.

    There's little point in being fiscally responsible if they aren't going to reform the supply side of the economy. Remorselessly imposing higher and higher taxes to fund ever higher spending is fiscally responsible and politically easy, but it strangles enterprise and destroys economic growth in the medium-long term.

    Low taxes, low spending and light regulation on the other hand generates it. THAT'S the gap in the political market at the moment, not yet another high tax, high spending, enterprise-crushing component of the uniparty.
    Denmark has high taxes, but enterprise flourishes and growth is good.
    Denmark literally bulldozes ethnic ghettoes. Do you want that in the UK? I do. Glad to have you on board
    So what?

    The question was whether it was possible have fiscally responsible social democratic government.
    People will not accept the high taxes necessary for welfare states if they feel they are being abused by outsiders. This is a known human phenomenon

    If you want social democracy then you either have low immigration or you have incredibly strict rules - enforced - around immigration and who gets what

    Britain now has the worst of all worlds. See Westminster council giving away central london council housing for life - when 2/3 of the people benefiting were born overseas

    If you want to brew civil unrest - keep doing THAT
    There's also fairness from the other end though. One of the consequences of Blair era welfare reforms was that a lot of objectively well off people started getting benefits. Winter Fuel Allowance and Child Benefit being two examples. When I worked a dead end retail job on a Sunday I used to sit on the bus and watch all of the well to do pensioners using their free bus pass to go into Cambridge for breakfast and a morning's shopping. Sometimes I was the only one who paid for a ticket. Then, when a government tries to means test things they get accused of attacking pensioners or children.
    I remember having to stand up on a bus when I was one of the few people who actually paid for it, whereas all the people sitting down hadn't paid because they had free bus passes.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,839

    Nigelb said:

    This is a potentially enormous discovery, and (for now at least) it's British.

    A single factor for safer cellular rejuvenation

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.06.05.657370v1
    [details snipped]

    British for now. This from yesterday:-

    Ouch: Three tech firms bail out of the UK in a single day
    ...
    Alphawave, a rare example of a semiconductor company listed in the UK, has moved another step closer to being taken over by US rival Qualcomm after the board recommended the deal to shareholders based on a valuation of just under £2bn.

    Then came news that the UK listed precision equipment specialist Spectris received a takeover bid from US private equity outfit Advent, valuing the firm at around £3.5bn. Open for business, indeed.

    Meanwhile, an Oxford university spinout, quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, has agreed to a $1.1bn takeover by US-based rival IonQ. This trio of tech takeovers comes just days after UK fintech darling Wise announced it would shift its primary listing to the US in search of growth.
    ...
    This isn’t a problem of Starmer’s making, but it’s getting worse on his watch and it must be confronted.

    https://www.cityam.com/three-tech-firms-bail-out-of-the-uk-in-a-single-day/
    If I was a US tech company, I’d be looking to buy a UK company given the unstable situation in the US with tariffs and big cuts to research spending.
    I know of at least one 'small' tech company that is suddenly heavily recruiting in the UK, and looking to open at least one dev centre.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,547

    The public now largely recognise that our economy is structurally broken. The question is what to do about it. LabCon governments - despite the rhetoric - get stuck with Treasury orthodoxy which dictates “solutions” which continue the structural issues. We need some outside the box thinking, and at the moment only Reform are doing that.

    Set partisan positions aside - this is far too serious an issue to talk about narrow party positions. Unless a mainstream party sees the light and starts proposing something big - think Edwardian era reforms or the post war governments building the modern welfare state - then we are getting Reform UK as our next government.

    Whether they have answers or not they are asking the right questions - and for many voters that will be enough…

    The two issues are:

    (1) Demographics
    (2) Debt

    No-one wants to talk about the latter - presumably because politicians have calculated that no-one wants to hear it - even though we're projected to spend over £100 billion a year on debt interest this year, compared to about £48 billion in 2011.

    Have a think about where else that £52 billion could otherwise have gone had interest rates stayed the same.

    Come to think of it, no-one wants to talk much about the former either- preferring to maintain the gerontocracy and slipping in high immigration each year to try and maintain the worker ratio - but we need to.
    The demographics and debt are two problems that go hand-in-hand, of course. Britain's post-WWII debt burden was much easier to manage because the demographics were favourable.

    That's one reason why many British governments have ended up being pro-immigration - the economic models show that it makes handling the debt burden easier.

    The whole issue of debt in a global economy when the global population starts to shrink is going to cause all sorts of difficulties later in the century. Somehow we need to get ahead of those problems.
    The only way out of our debt crisis is inflation. It is simply too large a drag on our economy now to make growth as a way of escaping it anything more than a fantasy. Of course this inflation will impoverish many of us ( or at least expose our true lack of wealth) and cause great pain. But we are out of other options. We may avoid a technical default but only by taking a soft default.

    I’m not rich enough to care but buying non inflation linked gilts is only for the courageous and the generous.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,654

    The one credible "reform" that Reform should make if they were ever to get into power is to switch the emphasis on Budget Day etc from "GDP Growth" (or decline) to "GDP per capita growth" (or decline).

    Currently a touch below Germany, only a bit above that well known hellhole Canada and well above France. Above NZ and leaving Italy out of sight. Below Senegal in football.
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