Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
Labour didn’t have answers The Conservatives didn’t have the answers Reform don’t have the answers
In this progression, I see little reason for cost duopoly to resume.
In a democracy, you have two choices.
1) (Pretend to) Give the people what they want. 2) Or change their minds with argument.
I’m waiting for the politicians to realise that the first method has run out of road.
We no longer have the ability to change minds via argument - good luck doing that in a social media world where people are drawn to a rightwing echo chamber via clickbait...
It’s not just right wing on social media it’s left wing too. It’s polarised extremes. A lot of the negative reaction to Labour on PIP and WFA is coming on social media from left wing commentators. My local Facebook groups have been unreadable ahead of the local elections. Reform supporters v Anti Reform with extreme invective and no middle ground.
There are alot of grifters out there making a living out of spouting extreme shite on social media. Great for them. Not so good for informed debate.
After this week I cannot see how Labour can even look at reforming the triple lock.
Arguments on social media tend to devolve very rapidly into ad hominem attacks, the erection of straw men, trolling, and people generally arguing in bad faith.
Good morning.
For an outsider, British politics is like a haunted boarding school run by mediocre prefects cosplaying Churchill while looting the tuck shop. Half the cabinet looks like it failed upwards out of a think tank, and the opposition seems committed to dying with dignity. And - I’m sorry, but I have to say this - if this is the ‘mother of parliaments’, someone really needs to call child protective services.
What happened to nice clueless American Lilaz from yesterday?
He woke up with a horrible hangover, probably.
(What LZ said isn't wrong, and is beautifully written. As an American, she might not realise that it was even more true 2019-24.)
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
Labour didn’t have answers The Conservatives didn’t have the answers Reform don’t have the answers
In this progression, I see little reason for cost duopoly to resume.
In a democracy, you have two choices.
1) (Pretend to) Give the people what they want. 2) Or change their minds with argument.
I’m waiting for the politicians to realise that the first method has run out of road.
We no longer have the ability to change minds via argument - good luck doing that in a social media world where people are drawn to a rightwing echo chamber via clickbait...
It’s not just right wing on social media it’s left wing too. It’s polarised extremes. A lot of the negative reaction to Labour on PIP and WFA is coming on social media from left wing commentators. My local Facebook groups have been unreadable ahead of the local elections. Reform supporters v Anti Reform with extreme invective and no middle ground.
There are alot of grifters out there making a living out of spouting extreme shite on social media. Great for them. Not so good for informed debate.
After this week I cannot see how Labour can even look at reforming the triple lock.
Arguments on social media tend to devolve very rapidly into ad hominem attacks, the erection of straw men, trolling, and people generally arguing in bad faith.
Good morning.
For an outsider, British politics is like a haunted boarding school run by mediocre prefects cosplaying Churchill while looting the tuck shop. Half the cabinet looks like it failed upwards out of a think tank, and the opposition seems committed to dying with dignity. And - I’m sorry, but I have to say this - if this is the ‘mother of parliaments’, someone really needs to call child protective services.
What happened to nice clueless American Lilaz from yesterday?
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
I would suspect a 4 star hotel is 4 star because of it's facilities, room service, restaurant, gym, films, parking garage, etc. I suspect migrants are just enjoying the 4 walls of the room and the bedding.
Yes.
The government pays a rate for block booking the place for years. The gym and all the facilities other than the kitchen and dining room are de-staffed and shut down.
Quite often the hotels in question are a bit tired - the owners see a big profit for a few years which will pay for a rip out and redo at the end.
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
The country is probably overdue the type of transformative government we elected in 1906, 1945 or 1979, to refer back to the thread header.
The problem is that Starmer isn’t the right man to lead that kind of government. He is too managerial. Without seeking to make toolmaker analogies, he does his best with the tools he’s got, but the country needs a new toolkit.
I am not sure how much Labour have taken on board the rise of Reform, but as of now large parts of England will have councillors dedicated to stopping the boats and housing migrants in hotels, DOGE style cost cutting and ending DEI, firmly anti net zero with opposition to solar farms and pylons and in Tice words 'every means possible will be used to prevent these developments'
Apparently Andrea Jenkyns has said that in Lincolnshire migrants will not be housed in hotels but tents !!!
For an outsider, British politics is like a haunted boarding school run by mediocre prefects cosplaying Churchill while looting the tuck shop. Half the cabinet looks like it failed upwards out of a think tank, and the opposition seems committed to dying with dignity. And - I’m sorry, but I have to say this - if this is the ‘mother of parliaments’, someone really needs to call child protective services.
wow
That could have been written by SeanT
It would be interesting to feed it into an AI engine to compare linguistic styles
No doxing please. Also, our new chum has used a full stop at the end.
Revealing that a poster is one of 125,436 SeanTs is hardly doxing.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
tbf it can get confusing posting from 2 accounts at once
I'd suggest using different browsers or even devices for each one. Along these lines, I have different colour xterms to distinguish different remote machines.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
Labour didn’t have answers The Conservatives didn’t have the answers Reform don’t have the answers
In this progression, I see little reason for cost duopoly to resume.
In a democracy, you have two choices.
1) (Pretend to) Give the people what they want. 2) Or change their minds with argument.
I’m waiting for the politicians to realise that the first method has run out of road.
We no longer have the ability to change minds via argument - good luck doing that in a social media world where people are drawn to a rightwing echo chamber via clickbait...
It’s not just right wing on social media it’s left wing too. It’s polarised extremes. A lot of the negative reaction to Labour on PIP and WFA is coming on social media from left wing commentators. My local Facebook groups have been unreadable ahead of the local elections. Reform supporters v Anti Reform with extreme invective and no middle ground.
There are alot of grifters out there making a living out of spouting extreme shite on social media. Great for them. Not so good for informed debate.
After this week I cannot see how Labour can even look at reforming the triple lock.
Arguments on social media tend to devolve very rapidly into ad hominem attacks, the erection of straw men, trolling, and people generally arguing in bad faith.
Good morning.
For an outsider, British politics is like a haunted boarding school run by mediocre prefects cosplaying Churchill while looting the tuck shop. Half the cabinet looks like it failed upwards out of a think tank, and the opposition seems committed to dying with dignity. And - I’m sorry, but I have to say this - if this is the ‘mother of parliaments’, someone really needs to call child protective services.
I suppose the amount of time you spend outside the UK kind of qualifies you as an outsider.
I'm surprised the mods didn't throw the book at you after your little ruse yesterday!
Fascinating that a mildly literate opinion triggers a style audit. i am not going to pretend i am stupid: yesterday I was being polite, as a newcomer.
"fascinating" huh? But what style audit are you talking about? Maybe you replied to the wrong person? Obviously trying to do 2 accounts at once is beyond you. Maybe wait until one is banned?
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
Council workers are lazy and inefficient. They’ll go to court over migrants in their council area and the press will lap it up . They can gain more media attention than they already have by these publicity stunts . Even if their councils crash and burn the real audience is the wider electorate .
Then we have the “ youth of today are un-patriotic “ and need re-education which the blue rinse brigade will lap up .
If Callaghan called a 1978 election the SNP wouldn't have committed hara-kiri by being the midwives for Thatcherism with the No Confidence vote in 1979.
Otoh we wouln't have had Thatcher as the midwife of a devolution that stuck and a (more or less) hegemonic SNP.
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
Good morning everyone. Happy Jedi day; May the Fourth be with you.
(I've looked back through the posts and no-one seems to have posted that before!)
I have though read Robert's interesting header, and while I agree that Callaghan would have been well advised to go to the country in Autumn '78 I don't think things would have turned out quite the way he described. In particular I recall little no anti-Europe feeling by the 1980's, although the Bennite wing of the Labour Party had opposed membership ten years earlier. I therefore doubt very much that David Owen would, or could, have persuaded us to leave the EU. Also, both Opposition parties, Conservative and Liberal were in favour of membership.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
Good morning everyone. Happy Jedi day; May the Fourth be with you.
(I've looked back through the posts and no-one seems to have posted that before!)
I have though read Robert's interesting header, and while I agree that Callaghan would have been well advised to go to the country in Autumn '78 I don't think things would have turned out quite the way he described. In particular I recall little no anti-Europe feeling by the 1980's, although the Bennite wing of the Labour Party had opposed membership ten years earlier. I therefore doubt very much that David Owen would, or could, have persuaded us to leave the EU. Also, both Opposition parties, Conservative and Liberal were in favour of membership.
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
I can't find my original message? Maybe your reply is all that's left of it......
How odd. It can't be that i used Nazi and Reform in the same post can it?
You're discussing an issue the Moderators don't want to go near with a twenty foot barge pole on the end of another set of twenty foot bargepoles
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
The fundamental breach of the social contract was not funding the courts nor providing appropriate legislation to deal with the issue. All done willingly by those politicians shouting the loudest about immigration.
Council workers are lazy and inefficient. They’ll go to court over migrants in their council area and the press will lap it up . They can gain more media attention than they already have by these publicity stunts . Even if their councils crash and burn the real audience is the wider electorate .
Then we have the “ youth of today are un-patriotic “ and need re-education which the blue rinse brigade will lap up .
Reintroduce National Service! A bit of square bashing did us no harm. Oh wait, we didn't do National Service.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the fact the full sentence was a formerly 4 star but now dingy, dying with no customers due to needing a complete refurbishment is now 100% leased to immigration
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
Utter piffle. Any party is perfectly free to include in their manifesto a pledge not to use hotels or other housing to accommodate asylum seekers, and voters can make their democratic choices. As they did last Thursday.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
I no longer regard the UK government as legitimate, for these reasons. The social and democratic contract has been broken. I won’t do anything illegal, but that will be for practical reasons, not moral
@kinabalu should be pleased, he believes there is no nation or national identity anyway
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
Unlike in Putin's Russia which is a perfect democracy, eh?
I mean I understand if you are Russian you don't get a vote in the UK, but British people do. You repeatedly confuse the majority not voting the way you want with there being no democracy. See also your claim that the AfD not being in power in Germany means that "Germany is not a democracy"
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
Perhaps the folk living in dilapidated caravans on the streets of Bristol should claim asylum, and then the government would put them up in a hotel?
Yes, this is the exact problem with the policy.
It was also one of the major reasons that Harris lost the US election.
A person working two jobs to put a roof over their head would have been absolutely incensed that people who had recently crossed the Southern border were being put up in New York hotels at the taxpayers' expense.
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
BURNHAM!
Oh God, another windsock
I was merely answering Pioneer's suggestion that I was advocating for Corbyn. You are right of course, but Burnham has more political nous than this entire Cabinet.
For an outsider, British politics is like a haunted boarding school run by mediocre prefects cosplaying Churchill while looting the tuck shop. Half the cabinet looks like it failed upwards out of a think tank, and the opposition seems committed to dying with dignity. And - I’m sorry, but I have to say this - if this is the ‘mother of parliaments’, someone really needs to call child protective services.
wow
That could have been written by SeanT
It would be interesting to feed it into an AI engine to compare linguistic styles
No doxing please. Also, our new chum has used a full stop at the end.
Revealing that a poster is one of 125,436 SeanTs is hardly doxing.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
Utter piffle. Any party is perfectly free to include in their manifesto a pledge not to use hotels or other housing to accommodate asylum seekers, and voters can make their democratic choices. As they did last Thursday.
And any party can win a General Election pledging to change any laws, including leaving any of our international treaties.
A party could have a manifesto commitment to end the Geneva Convention, pull out of the UN, abolish the right to asylum and none of that would be against the law - and if they won, they could do it.
But no party pledging any of that has won an election - or ever hopefully will. That's democracy.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
I no longer regard the UK government as legitimate, for these reasons. The social and democratic contract has been broken. I won’t do anything illegal, but that will be for practical reasons, not moral
@kinabalu should be pleased, he believes there is no nation or national identity anyway
So Islamic militants are morally right to not consider the UK government legitimate because they think that the state has broken it's duties to God? You don't get to unilaterally decide what a democratic and social contract is and then opt out of your obligations to obey the law.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
The problem there is this is 99% the Tory parties fault.
From 2015 onwards the Government cut spending on immigration processing so where cases were previously sorted out in a few months that months moved to years.
They then discovered that as they were not handle cases quickly they had created a massive problem of needing to find places to accommodate multiple years worth of immigrants instead of say 1 years worth
So then desperately had to hunt for places to accommodate the immigrants who should have been processed quickly before being either sent out to find a job and start a live in the UK or put on the next plane home.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
I no longer regard the UK government as legitimate, for these reasons. The social and democratic contract has been broken. I won’t do anything illegal, but that will be for practical reasons, not moral
@kinabalu should be pleased, he believes there is no nation or national identity anyway
Great, another Reichsbürger - they are some of the stupidest people on the planet so makes sense.
Ah, so asylum seekers are being housed in buildings, some of which were once 4 star hotels.
No, they were 4 star hotels in operation as 4 star hotels, up until the point the government block booked them for months so we can all pay for young men from Somalia to live there
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
The problem there is this is 99% the Tory parties fault.
The problem is that any fool can go round saying they don't like what the government's done and whine about its being "It's a fundamental breach of the social contract", and not realise what nonsense they're talking.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
BURNHAM!
I'd be careful posting that on a thread discussing asylum hotels in case a refukker misunderstands.
FPT, on the postponed elections. We didn’t see any proper Lib Dem-Reform battlegrounds this week, and they’d be interesting. I think Sussex and Hampshire both have the potential to be.
Not necessarily competitive wards, but competitive overall councils.
I expect the media will be following and reporting all things Farage and Reform going forward and not to their disadvantage as they seem to be able to dictate the narrative
For anyone who thinks this is a passing phase and we will return to the 2 big parties I think they are going to have a very long wait
Something fundamental has changed and we are in a new world of politics
I dismissed PM Farage but maybe it is not as unlikely as I had hoped, but to be fair this is the challenge facing both labour and conservatives as to how they recover their votes lost to Reform
Eight men, including seven Iranian nationals, have been arrested by police in two separate counter-terrorism operations across England.
Five of the suspects were detained in raids on Saturday as part of an alleged plot to target “a specific premises,” the Metropolitan police said.
The force did not reveal the site but said it had been identified with the advice and support from counter-terror officers.
The home secretary, Yvette Cooper, said the arrests were sparked by “serious events that demonstrate the ongoing requirement to adapt our response to national security threats”.
Governments, of every stripe, always interpret bad election results as "We will change how fast we are doing the things you don't like"
It really is strange, we teach our kids, and presumably politicians teach theirs, that admitting mistakes and owning up to bad behaviour is a positive thing, yet all politicians refuse to do either, even when blatantly making errors.
FPT, on the postponed elections. We didn’t see any proper Lib Dem-Reform battlegrounds this week, and they’d be interesting. I think Sussex and Hampshire both have the potential to be.
Not necessarily competitive wards, but competitive overall councils.
I have noted there are a number of cricketers who have decided to do this and will only play the T20 or Hundred now.
He also says he might change his mind in six months or so. Both he and the cricketers are going where the money is; in his case Saudi/The Gulf, in the cricketers case, India.
Good luck with both in the long, or even medium term. I know a few people who've gone to the Gulf for the money in the short-term, but I don't know anyone who has retired there. And there are, every so often, tales of people who've retired to Marigold Hotel type places in India, but I suggest they're few and far between. I've thought about something similar, as we've family in Thailand, but it would be very isolating.
I have noted there are a number of cricketers who have decided to do this and will only play the T20 or Hundred now.
He also says he might change his mind in six months or so. Both he and the cricketers are going where the money is; in his case Saudi/The Gulf, in the cricketers case, India.
Good luck with both in the long, or even medium term. I know a few people who've gone to the Gulf for the money in the short-term, but I don't know anyone who has retired there. And there are, every so often, tales of people who've retired to Marigold Hotel type places in India, but I suggest they're few and far between. I've thought about something similar, as we've family in Thailand, but it would be very isolating.
Well that is because you generally can't...you being allowed to stay in the country is 99% of the time tied to being gainfully employed.
The cricketers aren't going to live in India. They live in the the gulf, then play IPL / SAT20 / PSL / T10 in the winter, then Hundred / MLC / CPL in the summer. In the next 5-10 years I am pretty sure we will just see a global T20 calendar of the same organisations playing in different places which players sign multi-year deals for.
I am not sure how much Labour have taken on board the rise of Reform, but as of now large parts of England will have councillors dedicated to stopping the boats and housing migrants in hotels, DOGE style cost cutting and ending DEI, firmly anti net zero with opposition to solar farms and pylons and in Tice words 'every means possible will be used to prevent these developments'
Apparently Andrea Jenkyns has said that in Lincolnshire migrants will not be housed in hotels but tents !!!
Politics has just become extremely divisive
I suppose if they put them in tents they will become easier to firebomb,
Ah, so asylum seekers are being housed in buildings, some of which were once 4 star hotels.
No, they were 4 star hotels in operation as 4 star hotels, up until the point the government block booked them for months so we can all pay for young men from Somalia to live there
That Copthorne hotel wasn't.
Its gone straight from failing hotel to covid quarantine hotel to asylum seekers hotel.
Anyway its irrelevant, people are far more concerned about their local chain hotel being used to house asylum seekers than some airport hotel they've never heard of.
I know some people are desperate for Labour to fail but I do think the idea Labour is just going to give up now until the next election is really silly.
I recall people predicting a decade of Johnson in 2021. Have these people ever admitted they got it wrong?
Jesus Christ, if I had a pound for every time you've said that about a decade of Johnson! Who said it anyway?
I expect the media will be following and reporting all things Farage and Reform going forward and not to their disadvantage as they seem to be able to dictate the narrative
For anyone who thinks this is a passing phase and we will return to the 2 big parties I think they are going to have a very long wait
Something fundamental has changed and we are in a new world of politics
I dismissed PM Farage but maybe it is not as unlikely as I had hoped, but to be fair this is the challenge facing both labour and conservatives as to how they recover their votes lost to Reform
The media, especially the BBC has been toadying to Farage for several years; why do you think they'll suddenly become critical? IMHO they'll sympathise with his problems, being thwarted by the (Labour) government.
I am not sure how much Labour have taken on board the rise of Reform, but as of now large parts of England will have councillors dedicated to stopping the boats and housing migrants in hotels, DOGE style cost cutting and ending DEI, firmly anti net zero with opposition to solar farms and pylons and in Tice words 'every means possible will be used to prevent these developments'
Apparently Andrea Jenkyns has said that in Lincolnshire migrants will not be housed in hotels but tents !!!
Politics has just become extremely divisive
I suppose if they put them in tents they will become easier to firebomb,
And they'll be in the tents for a very long time because a Reform Government would gut funding to the government department who has to process their applications.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
I doubt people living in that area are happy about the swapping of a 4 star hotel on their doorstep for an illegal immigrant holding pen
Ah, so asylum seekers are being housed in buildings, some of which were once 4 star hotels.
No, they were 4 star hotels in operation as 4 star hotels, up until the point the government block booked them for months so we can all pay for young men from Somalia to live there
That Copthorne hotel wasn't.
Its gone straight from failing hotel to covid quarantine hotel to asylum seekers hotel.
Anyway its irrelevant, people are far more concerned about their local chain hotel being used to house asylum seekers than some airport hotel they've never heard of.
The only chain I'm aware of that has converted places to asylum seekers is Britannia whose business model is drive every penny of profit from formerly grand hotels before they totally fall apart...
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
It's a fundamental breach of the social contract for the government to commandeer amenities like hotels and housing to accommodate refugees on the basis of obligations that people have no way of voting against. We may have elections, but we do not have a democratic state.
I no longer regard the UK government as legitimate, for these reasons. The social and democratic contract has been broken. I won’t do anything illegal, but that will be for practical reasons, not moral
@kinabalu should be pleased, he believes there is no nation or national identity anyway
Great, another Reichsbürger - they are some of the stupidest people on the planet so makes sense.
Tbf when you see some of the eejits that voted for the Starmer government, one might wonder about that government's legitimacy.
Ah, so asylum seekers are being housed in buildings, some of which were once 4 star hotels.
No, they were 4 star hotels in operation as 4 star hotels, up until the point the government block booked them for months so we can all pay for young men from Somalia to live there
That Copthorne hotel wasn't.
Its gone straight from failing hotel to covid quarantine hotel to asylum seekers hotel.
Anyway its irrelevant, people are far more concerned about their local chain hotel being used to house asylum seekers than some airport hotel they've never heard of.
Sweet Holy Jesus. Point is it was legally classed as a 4 star hotel when it got co-opted for asylum seekers
And yes, as you say, this is happening across the country and often it is a perfectly decent local chain hotel - thus enraging locals
Amazingly on the Copthorne Gatwick tripadvisor site some of the asylum seekers have left reviews. No joke
“Thankyou for all the delicious food”, “thanks for doing all our laundry”. It’s probably lifted their rating
Zia Yusuf confirms Reform UK will look to use injunctions, judicial reviews and planning laws to block housing asylum seekers in hotels in areas they govern https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1918943321445007690
Zia Yusuf confirms Reform UK will look to use injunctions, judicial reviews and planning laws to block housing asylum seekers in hotels in areas they govern
Problem is it's not change of use so planning won't work and nor would anything else.
And yes the only person who will win here are lawyers. The entertaining bit will be watching them trying to find the money to pay for the barristers from a council budget..
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
I heard exactly the same. Ellie Reeves wittering on about breakfast clubs - if that’s all they have to shout about then we are in real trouble.
If we’re to rebuild communities we need alot more investment in local Government.
I don’t think Corbyn is the answer either, but we need to understand why so many thought it was, and what they liked about his offer. And I’m bloody sure bland technocratic Blairism isn’t the answer either. Starmer and Reeves just don’t get the zeitgeist.
Whar I liked about Corbyn's offer was partly the long-term strategy, which seems missing from ALL parties at the moment. "Make Britain less unequal and help people at the bottom" seems a worthwhile objective, in a way that "have more breakfast clubs" or "knock 0.5p off higher rate tax" does not. Investment in local government sounds vaguely interesting, but to do what?
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
I doubt people living in that area are happy about the swapping of a 4 star hotel on their doorstep for an illegal immigrant holding pen
That's a different matter to falsely claiming that they are being put up in 4 star hotels.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
Asylum seekers in 4 star hotels is a mix of truth, exaggeration, spin and misdirection. I am not sure it is valueable to point out the exaggeration, spin and misdirection though.
Whatever one's views on asylum it is madness that we have been doing this for a decade now. I say it is down to the deliberate choices of the last few Conservative governments and that is the point that needs to be made. And Labour now have to fix that or be held accountable themselves as well.
Lab MP. A Scottish one so on the very lowest step of having any influence, but still.
Brian Leishman @BrianLeishmanMP Albert was right when he said insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Quote Keir Starmer @Keir_Starmer 3 May Most Prime Ministers would respond to these local elections with the same old excuses. My response is simple: I get it. We’re moving in the right direction, but people must feel the benefits of change. I will go further and faster to make that happen.
An incoherent answer I thought. I'm beginning to think Starmer isn't very good at this politics lark. He had two choices. Either argue that the results weren't too bad under the circumstances. Reasonably fair. Or that it takes a while to turn an oil tanker round and as you've got us for the next four years you better get used to it
I think Starmer is trying to say it is choice no 2 - this will take time, deal with it - and not choice no 1 - actually these are OKish results. But that implies the voters are wrong, hopefully only temporarily from his perspective, that he isn't implementing beneficial change. So he doesn't really "get it".
I have noted there are a number of cricketers who have decided to do this and will only play the T20 or Hundred now.
He also says he might change his mind in six months or so. Both he and the cricketers are going where the money is; in his case Saudi/The Gulf, in the cricketers case, India.
Good luck with both in the long, or even medium term. I know a few people who've gone to the Gulf for the money in the short-term, but I don't know anyone who has retired there. And there are, every so often, tales of people who've retired to Marigold Hotel type places in India, but I suggest they're few and far between. I've thought about something similar, as we've family in Thailand, but it would be very isolating.
Well that is because you generally can't...you being allowed to stay in the country is 99% of the time tied to being gainfully employed.
The cricketers aren't going to live in India. They live in the the gulf, then play IPL / SAT20 / PSL / T10 in the winter, then Hundred / MLC / CPL in the summer. In the next 5-10 years I am pretty sure we will just see a global T20 calendar of the same organisations playing in different places which players sign multi-year deals for.
Quite. And as for the cricketers, we've just seen the retirement of a Kent cricketer, Darren Stevens, at the advanced age, for a cricketer, of 46. You can't play golf for 40 years!
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
I heard exactly the same. Ellie Reeves wittering on about breakfast clubs - if that’s all they have to shout about then we are in real trouble.
If we’re to rebuild communities we need alot more investment in local Government.
I don’t think Corbyn is the answer either, but we need to understand why so many thought it was, and what they liked about his offer. And I’m bloody sure bland technocratic Blairism isn’t the answer either. Starmer and Reeves just don’t get the zeitgeist.
Whar I liked about Corbyn's offer was partly the long-term strategy, which seems missing from ALL parties at the moment. "Make Britain less unequal and help people at the bottom" seems a worthwhile objective, in a way that "have more breakfast clubs" or "knock 0.5p off higher rate tax" does not. Investment in local government sounds vaguely interesting, but to do what?
A better question would be is local government the best place to manage Social care?
Which opens up a far bigger and more important question we really should be taking a step back and working out what the purpose and powers of local government in the 21st century should be?
Only the UK government could invent a system where fake asylum seekers from North Africa end up in four-star hotels, while the locals who voted for border control can’t get a dentist
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
Asylum seekers in 4 star hotels is a mix of truth, exaggeration, spin and misdirection. I am not sure it is valueable to point out the exaggeration, spin and misdirection though.
Whatever one's views on asylum it is madness that we have been doing this for a decade now. I say it is down to the deliberate choices of the last few Conservative governments and that is the point that needs to be made. And Labour now have to fix that or be held accountable themselves as well.
The issue is the actual story is asylum seekers in formerly 4 star hotels.
It's then a matter of how it's spun and as Leon points out Reform can spin it into a simple story far more easily than the actual story can be explained.
Lab MP. A Scottish one so on the very lowest step of having any influence, but still.
Brian Leishman @BrianLeishmanMP Albert was right when he said insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Quote Keir Starmer @Keir_Starmer 3 May Most Prime Ministers would respond to these local elections with the same old excuses. My response is simple: I get it. We’re moving in the right direction, but people must feel the benefits of change. I will go further and faster to make that happen.
An incoherent answer I thought. I'm beginning to think Starmer isn't very good at this politics lark. He had two choices. Either argue that the results weren't too bad under the circumstances. Reasonably fair. Or that it takes a while to turn an oil tanker round and as you've got us for the next four years you better get used to it
I think Starmer is trying to say it is choice no 2 - this will take time, deal with it - and not choice no 1 - actually these are OKish results. But that implies the voters are wrong, hopefully only temporarily from his perspective, that he isn't implementing beneficial change. So he doesn't really "get it".
I think Rogar's right; Starmer isn't very good at politics.
Good morning @rcs1000. A good article, thank you. A Callaghan victory is a staple of alternatehistory.com. As for the Falklands under Labour, it has certain factors
Callaghan had already dealt with an incipient Argentinian invasion in 1977: see Operation Journeyman below
In the early 1980s Thatcher and the hapless Defence Minister John Nott were reorganising the Royal Navy to focus on antisubmarine warfare in the North Atlantic. The capability gap this opened up in the South Atlantic made the possibility of an Argentinian invasion worse
The Foreign Office were working out ways to give the Islands to the Argentinians.
These points indicate that a Callaghan Ministry would have applied a very different, and possibly prophylactic, approach to the Falklands
Interesting that Lucy Powell has chosen to apologise for accusing Reform of using a dog whistle. It clearly was and it's the way right wing Nazi Parties have always worked. A nod and a wink.
The interesting thing is why she apologised. Was she asked to by Starmer? I sincerely hope not. The audience gave her the biggest cheer of the day. If it was Starmer then it's time Labour got a leader with a backbone or they'll be chasing Reform all the way to defeat at the next election
I have concluded on Friday morning that Labour's problem is Starmer followed closely by Reeves.
The left hate them for being Tory-lite and the right hate them for not being Tory enough.
They have had nearly a year and from what I can see they have done nothing of substance, and if they have done anything, their comms are so poor they haven't told us about it.
I am wondering whether BJO wasn't right all along and the King over the water (whom I despise) might be the answer.
BJO is a Corbynite - in what way is Corbyn the answer?
You’re right about Starmer though. It isn’t the crap showing in the locals it’s the response. Further and faster. Supposedly their policies are good and virtuous and once actually enacted will make everybody happy. Which is crap.
I heard one minister on the News Agents singing about primary school breakfast clubs. A worthy policy. But one where delivery will transform the country? Please…
I heard exactly the same. Ellie Reeves wittering on about breakfast clubs - if that’s all they have to shout about then we are in real trouble.
If we’re to rebuild communities we need alot more investment in local Government.
I don’t think Corbyn is the answer either, but we need to understand why so many thought it was, and what they liked about his offer. And I’m bloody sure bland technocratic Blairism isn’t the answer either. Starmer and Reeves just don’t get the zeitgeist.
Whar I liked about Corbyn's offer was partly the long-term strategy, which seems missing from ALL parties at the moment. "Make Britain less unequal and help people at the bottom" seems a worthwhile objective, in a way that "have more breakfast clubs" or "knock 0.5p off higher rate tax" does not. Investment in local government sounds vaguely interesting, but to do what?
A problem is the people at the middle need help* too. I, and most voters, think Labour (and the Tories) have forgotten that.
* Not necessarily benefits but better access to housing, childcare and higher opportunity jobs for sure.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
Ah, so asylum seekers are being housed in buildings, some of which were once 4 star hotels.
No, they were 4 star hotels in operation as 4 star hotels, up until the point the government block booked them for months so we can all pay for young men from Somalia to live there
Just like some posters were a different poster right up until they weren't ?
I wonder if we are going to see Reform pull a stunt like we saw in the US and try and put migrants on buses to be driven to seats of government officials.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
Asylum seekers in 4 star hotels is a mix of truth, exaggeration, spin and misdirection. I am not sure it is valueable to point out the exaggeration, spin and misdirection though.
Whatever one's views on asylum it is madness that we have been doing this for a decade now. I say it is down to the deliberate choices of the last few Conservative governments and that is the point that needs to be made. And Labour now have to fix that or be held accountable themselves as well.
The issue is the actual story is asylum seekers in formerly 4 star hotels.
It's then a matter of how it's spun and as Leon points out Reform can spin it into a simple story far more easily than the actual story can be explained.
So Labour need to stop it. Which means getting processing times down from years to months at a minimum.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
I doubt people living in that area are happy about the swapping of a 4 star hotel on their doorstep for an illegal immigrant holding pen
That's a different matter to falsely claiming that they are being put up in 4 star hotels.
I suppose it depends on the emphasis one puts one it, but if something were being used as a 4 star hotel until the point it was used to house asylum seekers, when the accommodation became less comfortable, I think saying "they're being put up in a 4 star hotel" is fine. Admittedly they are not being treated to a 4 star hotel's perks, but still I think that would add to the complaints of the locals - something good has been turned into something shit because of the governments feebleness over illegal immigration
Lab MP. A Scottish one so on the very lowest step of having any influence, but still.
Brian Leishman @BrianLeishmanMP Albert was right when he said insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Quote Keir Starmer @Keir_Starmer 3 May Most Prime Ministers would respond to these local elections with the same old excuses. My response is simple: I get it. We’re moving in the right direction, but people must feel the benefits of change. I will go further and faster to make that happen.
An incoherent answer I thought. I'm beginning to think Starmer isn't very good at this politics lark. He had two choices. Either argue that the results weren't too bad under the circumstances. Reasonably fair. Or that it takes a while to turn an oil tanker round and as you've got us for the next four years you better get used to it
I think Starmer is trying to say it is choice no 2 - this will take time, deal with it - and not choice no 1 - actually these are OKish results. But that implies the voters are wrong, hopefully only temporarily from his perspective, that he isn't implementing beneficial change. So he doesn't really "get it".
I think Rogar's right; Starmer isn't very good at politics.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
They are staying in buildings that were run down 4 star hotels of the 80s/90s which were usually slowly dying where the Government has given them one final massive pile of money to solve a problem...
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the dingy, dying, no customers needing a complete refurbishment part of the sentence...
No, the issue is that @MattW lied. He claimed there are no migrants in 4* hotels. I’ve proved that there are
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
If the offering is meagre, then its no longer 4 stars.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
I doubt people living in that area are happy about the swapping of a 4 star hotel on their doorstep for an illegal immigrant holding pen
That's a different matter to falsely claiming that they are being put up in 4 star hotels.
I suppose it depends on the emphasis one puts one it, but if something were being used as a 4 star hotel until the point it was used to house asylum seekers, when the accommodation became less comfortable, I think saying "they're being put up in a 4 star hotel" is fine. Admittedly they are not being treated to a 4 star hotel's perks, but still I think that would add to the complaints of the locals - something good has been turned into something shit because of the governments feebleness over illegal immigration
Its about tense.
"They've taken away a 4 star hotel from the area" is fine. Past tense, it used to be 4 star and now its not available. "They're being put up in 4 star hotels" is not true. Present tense, and its not presently 4 star.
I know some people are desperate for Labour to fail but I do think the idea Labour is just going to give up now until the next election is really silly.
I recall people predicting a decade of Johnson in 2021. Have these people ever admitted they got it wrong?
Labour have given up. What are they for? Whilst the Tory attacks of “14 years in opposition and they have no plans” attacks were hilarious, it’s also true.
Zia Yusuf confirms Reform UK will look to use injunctions, judicial reviews and planning laws to block housing asylum seekers in hotels in areas they govern https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1918943321445007690
Sounds expensive.
Aside from the expense where do they expect the asylum seekers to be moved to ?
They would probably be better off buying the relevant hotels and then demolishing them.
Zia Yusuf confirms Reform UK will look to use injunctions, judicial reviews and planning laws to block housing asylum seekers in hotels in areas they govern https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1918943321445007690
Sounds expensive.
Aside from the expense where do they expect the asylum seekers to be moved to ?
They would probably be better off buying the relevant hotels and then demolishing them.
It is all about making a scene and then claiming the blob stopped them. That's why i wouldn't be surprised if they pull the bus them to Ed Miliband seat as a stunt. There will be outrage and headlines and legal proceedings, but i don't think they will care.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
Utterly dishonest, though, which is what I said. And nothing you have claimed contradicts that.
People have explained the business model here to you. Perhaps you should get that travel journalist who hangs around you to explain it.
You should use that when canvassing red wall seats
“Yes ok TECHNICALLY they are four star hotels but you don’t understand we close the gym and the breakfast only has two kinds of cereal. Yes ok the rooms are cleaned and all the laundry is done free for the refugees but this is a special business model with hotels that weren’t doing well. Now you get to pay with your taxes for this private company to refurbish their hotel while housing asylum seekers from Ethiopia that you never wanted to allow in so you can’t use the hotel for three years even as the refugees wander around your town freaking you out. Shut up. You voted for this”
I know some people are desperate for Labour to fail but I do think the idea Labour is just going to give up now until the next election is really silly.
I recall people predicting a decade of Johnson in 2021. Have these people ever admitted they got it wrong?
Labour have given up. What are they for? Whilst the Tory attacks of “14 years in opposition and they have no plans” attacks were hilarious, it’s also true.
Breakfast clubs. Is that it?
To be fair, breakfast clubs, if they were being offered to all, would actually be a serious and credible reform.
It would open up a lot of people to being able to go to work at times they currently can't. I pay for my kids to go to breakfast club, because otherwise I'd need to drop my kids off at school at 8:50am and there's not many jobs you can get to on time when you're dropping your kids off at school at 8:50am.
The problem is the breakfast club thing is a gimmick. Its being done for a few people, in a few schools, not for everyone nationwide. Its not real.
I know some people are desperate for Labour to fail but I do think the idea Labour is just going to give up now until the next election is really silly.
I recall people predicting a decade of Johnson in 2021. Have these people ever admitted they got it wrong?
Labour have given up. What are they for? Whilst the Tory attacks of “14 years in opposition and they have no plans” attacks were hilarious, it’s also true.
I wonder if we are going to see Reform pull a stunt like we saw in the US and try and put migrants on buses to be driven to seats of government officials.
What happened in he USA was the transfer of illegal migrants to self proclaimed, self righteous 'sanctuary cities'.
There's not really the equivalent in this country of either the 'sanctuary cities' or the illegal immigrants.
Question for the PB community in light of Reform's flagship policy of banning free biscuits.
Has anyone ever worked in an organisation providing free biscuits?
I did a gap year working before uni and the company i worked for fully stocked kitchen of everything you can imagine including booze. This was way before the days of Meta and their wine on tap.
I know some people are desperate for Labour to fail but I do think the idea Labour is just going to give up now until the next election is really silly.
I recall people predicting a decade of Johnson in 2021. Have these people ever admitted they got it wrong?
Labour have given up. What are they for? Whilst the Tory attacks of “14 years in opposition and they have no plans” attacks were hilarious, it’s also true.
Breakfast clubs. Is that it?
But they are going to go further and faster.....or something.
Zia Yusuf confirms Reform UK will look to use injunctions, judicial reviews and planning laws to block housing asylum seekers in hotels in areas they govern https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1918943321445007690
Sounds expensive.
Aside from the expense where do they expect the asylum seekers to be moved to ?
They would probably be better off buying the relevant hotels and then demolishing them.
It is all about making a scene and then claiming the blob stopped them. That's why i wouldn't be surprised if they pull the bus them to Ed Miliband seat as a stunt. There will be outrage and headlines and legal proceedings, but i don't think they will care.
How are they going to get them on the bus ?
Illegal immigrants in Texas border towns had an incentive to get flown to New York.
I wonder if we are going to see Reform pull a stunt like we saw in the US and try and put migrants on buses to be driven to seats of government officials.
What happened in he USA was the transfer of illegal migrants to self proclaimed, self righteous 'sanctuary cities'.
There's not really the equivalent in this country of either the 'sanctuary cities' or the illegal immigrants.
Council workers are lazy and inefficient. They’ll go to court over migrants in their council area and the press will lap it up . They can gain more media attention than they already have by these publicity stunts . Even if their councils crash and burn the real audience is the wider electorate .
Then we have the “ youth of today are un-patriotic “ and need re-education which the blue rinse brigade will lap up .
A lot of the youth of today are supporting Reform.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
Utterly dishonest, though, which is what I said. And nothing you have claimed contradicts that.
People have explained the business model here to you. Perhaps you should get that travel journalist who hangs around you to explain it.
You should use that when canvassing red wall seats
“Yes ok TECHNICALLY they are four star hotels but you don’t understand we close the gym and the breakfast only has two kinds of cereal. Yes ok the rooms are cleaned and all the laundry is done free for the refugees but this is a special business model with hotels that weren’t doing well. Now you get to pay with your taxes for this private company to refurbish their hotel while housing asylum seekers from Ethiopia that you never wanted to allow in so you can’t use the hotel for three years even as the refugees wander around your town freaking you out. Shut up. You voted for this”
Definite winner. Should stop reform in its tracks
It is complete madness. The fact that both major parties allowed this to happen has somehow led to their supporters thinking it is normal/defensible. No one I know in real life thinks it is anything other than utter lunacy
If they were all given brand new cars to drive around in, would they be considered second hand once they've turned on the ignition?
I am not sure how much Labour have taken on board the rise of Reform, but as of now large parts of England will have councillors dedicated to stopping the boats and housing migrants in hotels, DOGE style cost cutting and ending DEI, firmly anti net zero with opposition to solar farms and pylons and in Tice words 'every means possible will be used to prevent these developments'
Apparently Andrea Jenkyns has said that in Lincolnshire migrants will not be housed in hotels but tents !!!
Politics has just become extremely divisive
Good morning Big G. The fascinating thing will be how Reform manage expectations. DEI is one of those things where practically everyone has been tales of diversity officers taking a fortune at councils and in the NHS etc etc. in reality it’s mostly fiction. Dame Andrea Finger pledged to sack the DEI officers at her council. And there aren't any.
As for DOGE, I have no principled objection to cutting waste. I’m an advocate for wholesale reconstruction of services because we’re spending money in the wrong way. But - and it’s a very big but. DOGE appears to have save $0. Actual savings a fraction of what was claimed, the immediate cost of making those savings is the same dollar value as what was cut, and the down the line costs remain unknown but likely a lot.
This is the problem with crayon politics. It’s easy when it’s slogans. Less easy when it’s policy.
Whilst I increased my vote slightly by 171 (2021 share in brackets) by persuading Labour and Green voters to support me against the Conservatives clearly our tactics of not mentioning Reform were a mistake. The Reform candidate did not put out any literature. From a few hours standing at polling stations, I think that many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time. I expect in future elections to expend effort encouraging non voters (turnout was 38%) of the dangers of not voting.
County Council result Bruntingthorpe Division (very rural South Leicestershire) Reform 34% (New) Conservative 31% (60%) Liberal Democrat 21% (18%) Labour 7% (13%) Green 7% (9%)
FPT-ing @Icarus in order to highlight this: many of the Reform voters did not usually bother to vote in local elections but had turned out this time.
This supports two contentions: Reform is NOTA; Reform support was underestimated by most pollsters and canvassers because they miss (or avoid or discount) habitual non-voters.
And hence if Reform sells out to, or turns into, the ‘old politics’, many of those folks will go back to sitting polling day out in their armchairs.
They may well find the next vehicle for their desire for someone to listen to them.
Exactly.
The thing is Reform may or may not have the answers. However to lots of left behind communities at least Reform are talking to them. All they get from the other parties and their supporters is being told they’re stupid etc etc. Hardly a plan to win these voters back.
I’m pleased to see some in Labour get it, like my MP. But then you have Lucy Powell and her performance on AQ’s to show Labour has a long way to go.
I'll have to listen to that. As I mentioned the spat was with Tim Montgomerie, who is perhaps trying to demonstrate his new Reform credentials (joined last December?).
My view is that Reform deal precisely in dog whistles and fictional narratives, to the exclusion of much else.
"Illegal immigrants in 4* hotels" is one such, as is "Two Tier Keir", and others.
Those who now have Reform Councils are about to find that out, because the Councillors in said Councils are about to discover that Farage's windy rhetoric does not quite fit reality as it exists outside the political rally, the pub, or the TV studio - so they will need to shout even more loudly to give the impression of doing something.
I'm currently wondering how I can tackle a Reform lead Notts County Council to further a mobility aid accessible network of Public Rights of Way and other paths, in accordance with the law. I need to 4 dimensional chess, and influencing strategies.
Nigel has declared war on one of the pieces of legislation that requires the Local Highways Authority to provide access, but it's also his own voter base which he will increasingly be taking rights away from. And one of his positions depends on the Supreme Courts clarified understanding of the Equality Act which he is out to destroy.
He needs some 4-dimensional chess as well if he isn't going to shoot himself in both feet.
Yep - that's the issue with Reform they generate lies that are very easy to sell and almost impossible to disprove because the people the lies are targeted at don't care enough to listen to reality.
It's very much Trump's audience where America shows only reality will demonstrate to people the reality involved.
Are you saying it’s a lie that migrants are in 4 star hotels?
So good you said it twice.
And the answer is that there's a narrow sense that it's technically true (some of the buildings used are otherwise used as 4* hotels I'm sure) but utterly dishonest (if you or I booked a weekend at this "so-called 4* hotel" and got the migrant experience, we'd be getting a compo face article in the papers.)
In some circles, technically true but utterly dishonest is a great election-winning argument.
No. Someone said “migrants staying in 4* hotels” is a “fictional narrative”. That is: a lie. No one mentioned “oh the facilities will be changed”
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
Utterly dishonest, though, which is what I said. And nothing you have claimed contradicts that.
People have explained the business model here to you. Perhaps you should get that travel journalist who hangs around you to explain it.
You should use that when canvassing red wall seats
“Yes ok TECHNICALLY they are four star hotels but you don’t understand we close the gym and the breakfast only has two kinds of cereal. Yes ok the rooms are cleaned and all the laundry is done free for the refugees but this is a special business model with hotels that weren’t doing well. Now you get to pay with your taxes for this private company to refurbish their hotel while housing asylum seekers from Ethiopia that you never wanted to allow in so you can’t use the hotel for three years even as the refugees wander around your town freaking you out. Shut up. You voted for this”
Definite winner. Should stop reform in its tracks
Incidentally what is Reform's policy tom stop illegal immigration ?
If they're serious then they need to advocate sinking the rubber dinghies with drones.
Zia Yusuf confirms Reform UK will look to use injunctions, judicial reviews and planning laws to block housing asylum seekers in hotels in areas they govern https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1918943321445007690
Sounds expensive.
Aside from the expense where do they expect the asylum seekers to be moved to ?
They would probably be better off buying the relevant hotels and then demolishing them.
It is all about making a scene and then claiming the blob stopped them. That's why i wouldn't be surprised if they pull the bus them to Ed Miliband seat as a stunt. There will be outrage and headlines and legal proceedings, but i don't think they will care.
How are they going to get them on the bus ?
Illegal immigrants in Texas border towns had an incentive to get flown to New York.
I was half joking. But if they have been moved to "up nuuuurfff" along the North sea and you come from Africa its bloody cold for people from the UK let along Africa, and somebody promises you a bus ride to London....and perhaps they have a relation already living in London (it is why many make the crossing as they know somebody already here).
Comments
(What LZ said isn't wrong, and is beautifully written. As an American, she might not realise that it was even more true 2019-24.)
The government pays a rate for block booking the place for years. The gym and all the facilities other than the kitchen and dining room are de-staffed and shut down.
Quite often the hotels in question are a bit tired - the owners see a big profit for a few years which will pay for a rip out and redo at the end.
The problem is that Starmer isn’t the right man to lead that kind of government. He is too managerial. Without seeking to make toolmaker analogies, he does his best with the tools he’s got, but the country needs a new toolkit.
Apparently Andrea Jenkyns has said that in Lincolnshire migrants will not be housed in hotels but tents !!!
Politics has just become extremely divisive
Weather forecast seems to be slightly improving.
Opposing pylons which we’ve had for decades is madness. Genuinely this one baffles me.
I can understand net zero but opposing wind turbines and solar panels being built when they create jobs and boost the economy is lunacy.
I know none of this will make any difference to Farage’s appeal but these things are make me sceptical that he’s really become left wing.
Fact is, asylum seekers are being put in 4 star hotels. I know this from personal experience - here’s one, the Gatwick Copthorne. I’ve stayed there - it’s rather nice. Old manor with lake. Now closed and used by asylum seekers - paid for by all of us
“Copthorne Hotel London Gatwick is not accepting any reservations requests for accommodation.
The rest of our London and UK hotels would be happy to assist you”
https://www.millenniumhotels.com/en/gatwick/copthorne-hotel-london-gatwick/
So, NOT a fictional narrative. NOT a lie. Perfectly true
Next
😶
Council workers are lazy and inefficient. They’ll go to court over migrants in their council area and the press will lap it up . They can gain more media attention than they already have by these publicity stunts . Even if their councils crash and burn the real audience is the wider electorate .
Then we have the “ youth of today are un-patriotic “ and need re-education which the blue rinse brigade will lap up .
(I've looked back through the posts and no-one seems to have posted that before!)
I have though read Robert's interesting header, and while I agree that Callaghan would have been well advised to go to the country in Autumn '78 I don't think things would have turned out quite the way he described. In particular I recall little no anti-Europe feeling by the 1980's, although the Bennite wing of the Labour Party had opposed membership ten years earlier. I therefore doubt very much that David Owen would, or could, have persuaded us to leave the EU. Also, both Opposition parties, Conservative and Liberal were in favour of membership.
The issue is that people see the 4 star hotel and miss the fact the full sentence was a formerly 4 star but now dingy, dying with no customers due to needing a complete refurbishment is now 100% leased to immigration
@kinabalu should be pleased, he believes there is no nation or national identity anyway
I mean I understand if you are Russian you don't get a vote in the UK, but British people do. You repeatedly confuse the majority not voting the way you want with there being no democracy. See also your claim that the AfD not being in power in Germany means that "Germany is not a democracy"
Seven-time world champion Ronnie O'Sullivan says he intends to leave the UK to live in the Middle East.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/snooker/articles/cm253j3jyl3o
I have noted there are a number of cricketers who have decided to do this and will only play the T20 or Hundred now.
It seems to have gone from being a quarantine hotel during covid to an asylum seekers refuge.
And the reviews from before covid are worse than they are for my local Travel Lodge.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g2168003-d198909-Reviews-or70-Copthorne_Hotel_London_Gatwick-Copthorne_Crawley_West_Sussex_England.html
It was also one of the major reasons that Harris lost the US election.
A person working two jobs to put a roof over their head would have been absolutely incensed that people who had recently crossed the Southern border were being put up in New York hotels at the taxpayers' expense.
It's an incredibly politically tone-deaf policy.
A party could have a manifesto commitment to end the Geneva Convention, pull out of the UN, abolish the right to asylum and none of that would be against the law - and if they won, they could do it.
But no party pledging any of that has won an election - or ever hopefully will. That's democracy.
He didn’t qualify his remark by saying “yes ok they’re 4 star but check the meagre new offerings at the breakfast buffet”
Also, a lot of these hotels are not crappy, declining shacks - quite often they are the go-to place for locals who want a wedding, a function, a meet up. Suddenly it is taken away to house Eritreans for free, on our shilling
The whole issue is unbelievably toxic and explosive and Labour’s only idea is to make it worse by giving the asylum seekers guaranteed housing
From 2015 onwards the Government cut spending on immigration processing so where cases were previously sorted out in a few months that months moved to years.
They then discovered that as they were not handle cases quickly they had created a massive problem of needing to find places to accommodate multiple years worth of immigrants instead of say 1 years worth
So then desperately had to hunt for places to accommodate the immigrants who should have been processed quickly before being either sent out to find a job and start a live in the UK or put on the next plane home.
To be 4 star you need to offer 4 star facilities, if the facilities are axed, then its no longer 4 star, even if it used to be.
Not necessarily competitive wards, but competitive overall councils.
For anyone who thinks this is a passing phase and we will return to the 2 big parties I think they are going to have a very long wait
Something fundamental has changed and we are in a new world of politics
I dismissed PM Farage but maybe it is not as unlikely as I had hoped, but to be fair this is the challenge facing both labour and conservatives as to how they recover their votes lost to Reform
Five of the suspects were detained in raids on Saturday as part of an alleged plot to target “a specific premises,” the Metropolitan police said.
The force did not reveal the site but said it had been identified with the advice and support from counter-terror officers.
The home secretary, Yvette Cooper, said the arrests were sparked by “serious events that demonstrate the ongoing requirement to adapt our response to national security threats”.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/may/04/uk-arrests-five-men-including-four-iranians-over-suspected-terrorist-plot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Cornwall_Council_election
Both he and the cricketers are going where the money is; in his case Saudi/The Gulf, in the cricketers case, India.
Good luck with both in the long, or even medium term. I know a few people who've gone to the Gulf for the money in the short-term, but I don't know anyone who has retired there.
And there are, every so often, tales of people who've retired to Marigold Hotel type places in India, but I suggest they're few and far between.
I've thought about something similar, as we've family in Thailand, but it would be very isolating.
The cricketers aren't going to live in India. They live in the the gulf, then play IPL / SAT20 / PSL / T10 in the winter, then Hundred / MLC / CPL in the summer. In the next 5-10 years I am pretty sure we will just see a global T20 calendar of the same organisations playing in different places which players sign multi-year deals for.
Its gone straight from failing hotel to covid quarantine hotel to asylum seekers hotel.
Anyway its irrelevant, people are far more concerned about their local chain hotel being used to house asylum seekers than some airport hotel they've never heard of.
Does the Copthorne currently offer 24/7 room service, a restaurant open to both residents and non-residents etc, etc, etc?
If not, its not currently a 4 star hotel.
IMHO they'll sympathise with his problems, being thwarted by the (Labour) government.
And yes, as you say, this is happening across the country and often it is a perfectly decent local chain hotel - thus enraging locals
Amazingly on the Copthorne Gatwick tripadvisor site some of the asylum seekers have left reviews. No joke
“Thankyou for all the delicious food”, “thanks for doing all our laundry”. It’s probably lifted their rating
https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1918943321445007690
Sounds expensive.
And yes the only person who will win here are lawyers. The entertaining bit will be watching them trying to find the money to pay for the barristers from a council budget..
Whatever one's views on asylum it is madness that we have been doing this for a decade now. I say it is down to the deliberate choices of the last few Conservative governments and that is the point that needs to be made. And Labour now have to fix that or be held accountable themselves as well.
Which opens up a far bigger and more important question we really should be taking a step back and working out what the purpose and powers of local government in the 21st century should be?
And then PB wonders why Reform are prospering
It's then a matter of how it's spun and as Leon points out Reform can spin it into a simple story far more easily than the actual story can be explained.
- Callaghan had already dealt with an incipient Argentinian invasion in 1977: see Operation Journeyman below
- In the early 1980s Thatcher and the hapless Defence Minister John Nott were reorganising the Royal Navy to focus on antisubmarine warfare in the North Atlantic. The capability gap this opened up in the South Atlantic made the possibility of an Argentinian invasion worse
- The Foreign Office were working out ways to give the Islands to the Argentinians.
These points indicate that a Callaghan Ministry would have applied a very different, and possibly prophylactic, approach to the FalklandsAlternateHistory articles (since 2018)
- https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/no-waiting-at-the-church-callaghan-goes-to-the-polls-in-78.557356/
- https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/what-if-callaghan-called-and-won-an-election-in-1978.483254/
- https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-callaghan-calls-a-general-election-in-1978.457453/
- https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/uncle-jims-gamble.448063/
Other reading* Not necessarily benefits but better access to housing, childcare and higher opportunity jobs for sure.
People have explained the business model here to you. Perhaps you should get that travel journalist who hangs around you to explain it.
"They've taken away a 4 star hotel from the area" is fine. Past tense, it used to be 4 star and now its not available.
"They're being put up in 4 star hotels" is not true. Present tense, and its not presently 4 star.
Breakfast clubs. Is that it?
They would probably be better off buying the relevant hotels and then demolishing them.
“Yes ok TECHNICALLY they are four star hotels but you don’t understand we close the gym and the breakfast only has two kinds of cereal. Yes ok the rooms are cleaned and all the laundry is done free for the refugees but this is a special business model with hotels that weren’t doing well. Now you get to pay with your taxes for this private company to refurbish their hotel while housing asylum seekers from Ethiopia that you never wanted to allow in so you can’t use the hotel for three years even as the refugees wander around your town freaking you out. Shut up. You voted for this”
Definite winner. Should stop reform in its tracks
Has anyone ever worked in an organisation providing free biscuits?
It would open up a lot of people to being able to go to work at times they currently can't. I pay for my kids to go to breakfast club, because otherwise I'd need to drop my kids off at school at 8:50am and there's not many jobs you can get to on time when you're dropping your kids off at school at 8:50am.
The problem is the breakfast club thing is a gimmick. Its being done for a few people, in a few schools, not for everyone nationwide. Its not real.
Have you forgotten SMASH THE GANGS?
There's not really the equivalent in this country of either the 'sanctuary cities' or the illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants in Texas border towns had an incentive to get flown to New York.
If they were all given brand new cars to drive around in, would they be considered second hand once they've turned on the ignition?
As for DOGE, I have no principled objection to cutting waste. I’m an advocate for wholesale reconstruction of services because we’re spending money in the wrong way. But - and it’s a very big but. DOGE appears to have save $0. Actual savings a fraction of what was claimed, the immediate cost of making those savings is the same dollar value as what was cut, and the down the line costs remain unknown but likely a lot.
This is the problem with crayon politics. It’s easy when it’s slogans. Less easy when it’s policy.
If they're serious then they need to advocate sinking the rubber dinghies with drones.
that the Tory party changing its leader (@BorisJohnson) led to an historic defeat.
Would Rishi Sunak ever say that?
https://x.com/nadinedorries/status/1918944785252970847?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q