Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Yesterday, February 28, 2025, a date which will live in infamy – politicalbetting.com

13468912

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,677
    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,677
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    Really not sure about his mum.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,805

    Well done to the King and whoever arranged this meeting (I assume Starmer).

    That is half way there. Now they need to cancel the Trump invitation.

    They won’t and need to buy time so I understand why it still needs to be in the calendar , hopefully it won’t happen anytime soon .

    I really wish we could say to the US thanks for the initial attempt in peace talks but Mr Trump as you said yourself this really is Europe’s problem so we’ll take it from here !

    At the same time freeze all those Russian assets and use them to help Ukraine .

    In an ideal world we’d have the military resources to do that . We need to do something though to disempower Trump from shafting Ukraine .

    European leaders need to step up tomorrow .
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,673
    edited March 1
    Taz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    But is this because people assume strongmen will be competent ?

    Mostly they aren’t.
    It's projection. They are the strong man.

    That's why they take criticism of the strong man so personally, and find a way to justify everything they do.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,129
    nico67 said:

    Zelenskyy is apparently going to meet King Charles tomorrow . I’m really pleased about that and good to see Starmer pushing the boat out to make Zelenskyy feel loved which is true of how the vast majority of Brits feel about him .

    Hopefully the vast majority of British people don't feel anything so nauseatingly un-British.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,129
    kamski said:

    The irony of all these European leaders getting their knickers in a knot and saying "Well we're going to kick Putin's arse outselves then!" is that that's exactly what Trump wants. Trump is going to un-sanction Russia, throw open his country to Russian billionaires, whilst getting whatever he can from Ukraine. Europe will continue to be at daggers drawn with Putin, and shut out Russian money and Russian gas. It's perfect for America. To mix metaphors, they stirred up the hornet's nest, and now they can sit back with popcorn.

    If Europe *really* wanted strategic and defensive independence from the USA, they would do it, however unlikely it seems now, in coordination with Russia, offer an associate EU membership (without Shengen as Russia wouldn't have any people left). That's what would really upset America, and it's what they have skilfully avoided thus far.

    That's true. But there's one slight flaw in your plan, which is Putin's tendency to brutally invade neighbouring countries. Makes me wonder what your European 'defensive independence' is supposed to defend against.
    China, India, the USA, and the United Kingdom.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,805

    nico67 said:

    Zelenskyy is apparently going to meet King Charles tomorrow . I’m really pleased about that and good to see Starmer pushing the boat out to make Zelenskyy feel loved which is true of how the vast majority of Brits feel about him .

    Hopefully the vast majority of British people don't feel anything so nauseatingly un-British.
    What’s nauseating about having huge admiration and love for an absolute hero and remarkable man.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,111
    edited March 1

    kamski said:

    The irony of all these European leaders getting their knickers in a knot and saying "Well we're going to kick Putin's arse outselves then!" is that that's exactly what Trump wants. Trump is going to un-sanction Russia, throw open his country to Russian billionaires, whilst getting whatever he can from Ukraine. Europe will continue to be at daggers drawn with Putin, and shut out Russian money and Russian gas. It's perfect for America. To mix metaphors, they stirred up the hornet's nest, and now they can sit back with popcorn.

    If Europe *really* wanted strategic and defensive independence from the USA, they would do it, however unlikely it seems now, in coordination with Russia, offer an associate EU membership (without Shengen as Russia wouldn't have any people left). That's what would really upset America, and it's what they have skilfully avoided thus far.

    That's true. But there's one slight flaw in your plan, which is Putin's tendency to brutally invade neighbouring countries. Makes me wonder what your European 'defensive independence' is supposed to defend against.
    China, India, the USA, and the United Kingdom.
    You forgot Trinidad and Tobago and the Klingons.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,977
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    Polling shows the Chagos plan to be more popular than not, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/survey-results/daily/2025/01/09/3a54c/3 , which suggests something about the bubbles we live in. People will think democracy isn’t working even when it is, because people are out of touch with what the demos supports.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 510

    Nobody on PB can still seriously think Trump was the right choice in 2024 surely.

    Was Zelensky the right choice for Ukraine in 2019, or would a continuation of Poroshenko's government served them better?
    Do you have an answer? Are you able to detail it? Are you just some lost soul wandering around asking about the meaning of life? So many questions, so little fact.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,927
    edited March 1

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    Polling shows the Chagos plan to be more popular than not, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/survey-results/daily/2025/01/09/3a54c/3 , which suggests something about the bubbles we live in. People will think democracy isn’t working even when it is, because people are out of touch with what the demos supports.
    54% say "don't know", and the ludicrous costs of the "deal" were not mentioned, let alone the spurious connection to far away Mauritius

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436

    Well done to the King and whoever arranged this meeting (I assume Starmer).

    That is half way there. Now they need to cancel the Trump invitation.

    Sir Boris? And I would have thought Zelensky is probably bunking at Boris's gaff rather than a Travelodge.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,230
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    Polling shows the Chagos plan to be more popular than not, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/survey-results/daily/2025/01/09/3a54c/3 , which suggests something about the bubbles we live in. People will think democracy isn’t working even when it is, because people are out of touch with what the demos supports.
    54% say "don't know", and the ludicrous costs of the "deal" were not mentioned, let alone the spurious connection to far away Mauritius

    It's somewhat closer to Mauritius than it is to Britain.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    A warm welcome to Downing Street
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,757
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
    Has familiarity bread contempt?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,901

    Eabhal said:

    nico67 said:

    Zelenskyy is apparently going to meet King Charles tomorrow . I’m really pleased about that and good to see Starmer pushing the boat out to make Zelenskyy feel loved which is true of how the vast majority of Brits feel about him .

    Hopefully the vast majority of British people don't feel anything so nauseatingly un-British.
    A small nation standing up to a dictator is pretty much the origin myth of the British people.
    It's all about 'owning the libs' for Luckyguy. Same can be said for JD Vance, to be honest.
    JD Vance and Luckyguy1983 ever been seen in the same room?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,975
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
    Has familiarity bread contempt?
    A rye observation.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 510

    "Asian perspectives of the US have shifted from a country once perceived as a force of “moral legitimacy” to something akin to “a landlord seeking rent,” Singapore’s defense chief said on the sidelines of a security meeting," per Bloomberg.

    That's quite an insightful comment. For example, the 'rent' Trump seeks in his business franchises is a payment to be associated with his name. So if he is running the US as a business, you have to pay to be associated with him (mainly) and the US as a power (as a secondary).

    Coincidently the same model as the mafia.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,551
    edited March 1

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Eabhal said:

    "Asian perspectives of the US have shifted from a country once perceived as a force of “moral legitimacy” to something akin to “a landlord seeking rent,” Singapore’s defense chief said on the sidelines of a security meeting," per Bloomberg.

    Talking about landlords, I was astounded to discover that one of my local pubs has had their hours curtailed because of a sound complaint from a short-term let owner. Apparently their Airbnb reviews mention the karoake.

    The bloody cheek. These arseholes destroy the lives of people living in tenements, yet have no qualms about shutting down everything that makes living in a dense city so good. A local kebab place has also been forced to close early.
    Who approves decisions like these? It's barmy.
    Could be Edinburgh Council's staff, or its relevant committee or it could be a Scottish Gmt inspector. Can't say on the info to hand. (Council is Slab/Scon/SLD, purportedly minority Slab.)
    The issue is its multiple different departments (and laws) that don't talk to each other.

    So you see issue 1 but don't grasp that issue 1 is only a problem because issue 2 exists and the department for issue 2 didn't fix the problem before issue 2 became a big problem.
    Different process entirely. An established AirBnB's owner who is licensed and pays the additional costs presumably has the same rights to make complaints as anyone else in the area who lives or has a business which is affected by the noise (and the reviews would be good evidence). How else can one do it?

    But I ewxpect that any noise from that AirBnB will now get complained about even more vigorously.
    I’ve come up with the following.

    Upon making complaints about a long standing premises or business, the premises or business should have the right to apply to the magistrates to have the complainant officially labelled as a “wan&er”

    Said appilation to be written in ancient style and nailed to their front door, in an official ceremony.
    Being someone who enjoys listening to bells ringing, I propose that this right be limited to properties that are more than 100 years old.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,737
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    Polling shows the Chagos plan to be more popular than not, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/survey-results/daily/2025/01/09/3a54c/3 , which suggests something about the bubbles we live in. People will think democracy isn’t working even when it is, because people are out of touch with what the demos supports.
    54% say "don't know", and the ludicrous costs of the "deal" were not mentioned, let alone the spurious connection to far away Mauritius

    54% don't care about Chagos seems quite low. Maybe the others felt they had to pretend an interest in the question put to them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,551

    boulay said:

    Was just sent this nice example of grifting by an old school friend who lives in the US.

    Corruption out in the open: the criminals becoming the oligarchs - by invitation.
    The Securities and Exchange Commission has stopped its prosecution of Justin Sun, a Chinese cryptocurrency entrepreneur who had been charged in March 2023 with securities fraud. After Trump was elected in 2024, Sun bought $30 million worth of Trump’s World Liberty Financial crypto tokens, putting $18 million directly into Trump’s pockets. Since then, he has invested another $45 million in WLF. Altogether, Sun’s investments have netted Trump more than $50 million.
    SEC also appears to have dropped its case against the crypto trading platform Coinbase after the platform donated $75 million to a political action committee associated with Trump and donated $1 million to Trump’s inauguration.

    It's astonishing that in the land of supposed checks and balances this kind of fraud is flourishing so openly. It's like they genuinely have no idea why the US has been such an attractive investment destination and how easily that reputation can be trashed. In the weeks since Trump's inauguration we have
    seen the very idea of America dying before our eyes, it's incredible.
    Isn't it famously the land of LACK of checks and balances?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,757
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Was just sent this nice example of grifting by an old school friend who lives in the US.

    Corruption out in the open: the criminals becoming the oligarchs - by invitation.
    The Securities and Exchange Commission has stopped its prosecution of Justin Sun, a Chinese cryptocurrency entrepreneur who had been charged in March 2023 with securities fraud. After Trump was elected in 2024, Sun bought $30 million worth of Trump’s World Liberty Financial crypto tokens, putting $18 million directly into Trump’s pockets. Since then, he has invested another $45 million in WLF. Altogether, Sun’s investments have netted Trump more than $50 million.
    SEC also appears to have dropped its case against the crypto trading platform Coinbase after the platform donated $75 million to a political action committee associated with Trump and donated $1 million to Trump’s inauguration.

    It's astonishing that in the land of supposed checks and balances this kind of fraud is flourishing so openly. It's like they genuinely have no idea why the US has been such an attractive investment destination and how easily that reputation can be trashed. In the weeks since Trump's inauguration we have
    seen the very idea of America dying before our eyes, it's incredible.
    Isn't it famously the land of LACK of checks and balances?

    Well, it is now. They've gone crypto only and are in mountains of debt.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,922
    Jonathan said:

    A warm welcome to Downing Street

    Ha, ha! I bet Vlad is pooping himself. The Russians always think that we'd want to go back to being world policeman if the yanks ever give it up, and that looks like it's about to happen and the Russians fear us more than they fear the US.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    The reference to the cheering crowds outside was clever.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,859
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    Polling shows the Chagos plan to be more popular than not, https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/survey-results/daily/2025/01/09/3a54c/3 , which suggests something about the bubbles we live in. People will think democracy isn’t working even when it is, because people are out of touch with what the demos supports.
    54% say "don't know", and the ludicrous costs of the "deal" were not mentioned, let alone the spurious connection to far away Mauritius

    Should the costs be presented as

    -£90m per year with an equivalent discount from the US on military spending
    - £18bn

    Hard not to be leading the witness one way or the other here.....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,598
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    No political system can give everything everyone wants from them. Including the 'strong man' theory - which is a non democratic theory and explanation for a simpler society of why we should respect the person who can command the top of the greasy pole - he can protect you when you can't protect yourself, essentially by command of a monopoly of lawful violence.

    Democracy delivers the best balance known so far of the merits of the theory along with minimising the demerits. In particular it provides a possibility of a culture in which the 'strong man' ie the government can both protect us and hold a monopoly of lawful violence, and crucially be replaced non violently by another strong man. We are, I think, noticing that it has other effects, such as marginalising the significance of the 'warrior class'. Or subjecting a dim populace to high levels of manipulation as the easiest and cheapest way of gaining the greasy pole.

    So, a nuclear armed non USA western world, 600,000,000 strong is terrified of facing 140,000,000 Russians without help.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,374
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
    Has familiarity bread contempt?
    A rye observation.
    The original comment was a lot more sour, dough.
    I can’t make khachapuri into a pun sadly, but I’ve just been to the local Ukrainian-Georgian shop and come out with some along with kinkhali, some Georgian wine and some over-priced curd cheese.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,399
    Battlebus said:

    "Asian perspectives of the US have shifted from a country once perceived as a force of “moral legitimacy” to something akin to “a landlord seeking rent,” Singapore’s defense chief said on the sidelines of a security meeting," per Bloomberg.

    That's quite an insightful comment. For example, the 'rent' Trump seeks in his business franchises is a payment to be associated with his name. So if he is running the US as a business, you have to pay to be associated with him (mainly) and the US as a power (as a secondary).

    Coincidently the same model as the mafia.
    In his enfeebled mind, he imagines Trump Ukraine alongside his Trump Gaza franchise.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,901
    I have a strong opinion that if it comes down to penalties, if you have had a player sent off in the game, you lose a pen. There should be a consequence of losing your head...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,975
    edited March 1
    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,757
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
    Has familiarity bread contempt?
    A rye observation.
    The original comment was a lot more sour, dough.
    I can’t make khachapuri into a pun sadly, but I’ve just been to the local Ukrainian-Georgian shop and come out with some along with kinkhali, some Georgian wine and some over-priced curd cheese.
    Was there an effort to make a pun? If so, it failed as I saw naan there.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,757

    Battlebus said:

    "Asian perspectives of the US have shifted from a country once perceived as a force of “moral legitimacy” to something akin to “a landlord seeking rent,” Singapore’s defense chief said on the sidelines of a security meeting," per Bloomberg.

    That's quite an insightful comment. For example, the 'rent' Trump seeks in his business franchises is a payment to be associated with his name. So if he is running the US as a business, you have to pay to be associated with him (mainly) and the US as a power (as a secondary).

    Coincidently the same model as the mafia.
    In his enfeebled mind, he imagines Trump Ukraine alongside his Trump Gaza franchise.
    What mind?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,069

    I have a strong opinion that if it comes down to penalties, if you have had a player sent off in the game, you lose a pen. There should be a consequence of losing your head...

    Definitely once you get to the 11th penalty each.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,069
    edited March 1
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
    Has familiarity bread contempt?
    A rye observation.
    The original comment was a lot more sour, dough.
    Reeves actually do a really great sourdough:

    image

    https://www.reevethebaker.co.uk
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,230
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Was just sent this nice example of grifting by an old school friend who lives in the US.

    Corruption out in the open: the criminals becoming the oligarchs - by invitation.
    The Securities and Exchange Commission has stopped its prosecution of Justin Sun, a Chinese cryptocurrency entrepreneur who had been charged in March 2023 with securities fraud. After Trump was elected in 2024, Sun bought $30 million worth of Trump’s World Liberty Financial crypto tokens, putting $18 million directly into Trump’s pockets. Since then, he has invested another $45 million in WLF. Altogether, Sun’s investments have netted Trump more than $50 million.
    SEC also appears to have dropped its case against the crypto trading platform Coinbase after the platform donated $75 million to a political action committee associated with Trump and donated $1 million to Trump’s inauguration.

    It's astonishing that in the land of supposed checks and balances this kind of fraud is flourishing so openly. It's like they genuinely have no idea why the US has been such an attractive investment destination and how easily that reputation can be trashed. In the weeks since Trump's inauguration we have
    seen the very idea of America dying before our eyes, it's incredible.
    Isn't it famously the land of LACK of checks and balances?

    Well it is now!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,230
    edited March 1
    @Casino_Royale

    Quite a few states have theoretically abolished the death penalty, but quite willingly carry it out without any form of judicial supervision. Ditto torture.

    Much as I enjoy grimdark, dystopian, novels, I see them as depicting societies you don't want to belong to, not as a blueprint for government, unlike Vance & co.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,551
    edited March 1
    Interesting perspective from Anders Puck Neilson:

    Trump and Vance had got themselves into a pickle by imagining they could do a quick fix to an intractable situation they had not found out about, and this is their way of getting out whilst blaming another party. 10 minutes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaCbUtTuLhA
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436
    ...

    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."

    Rutte is speaking with a forked tongue. Was he trained by the BBC? Did he not see the Oval Office mugging? Rutte is asking Zelensky to herd a bunch of particularly vicious cats. Rutte needs to wade in and earn his substantial salary.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,919

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    The one organisation in Western politics that has shown it has the ability to dispatch failing leaders quickly is the Conservative party, so perhaps we should expand the 1922 Committee model to national government.

    We could let Graham Brady veto policies at his discretion if he receives an undisclosed number of letters.
    Nit exactly been an unalloyed success for the Tories, has it ?
    Do you actually have a favoured electoral system, or do you just prefer shitposting ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,219
    edited March 1
    Too busy to spend time loafing about here today.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,062

    ...

    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."

    Rutte is speaking with a forked tongue. Was he trained by the BBC? Did he not see the Oval Office mugging? Rutte is asking Zelensky to herd a bunch of particularly vicious cats. Rutte needs to wade in and earn his substantial salary.
    Rutte is speaking the truth, whether you and I like it or not.

    The pictures of Starmer and Zelensky are quite moving.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,598

    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."

    But how useful? Suppose Rutte had said 'Dear Mr Trump, top NATO power POTUS, you must find a way to stop doing everything Putin tells you to'.

    Or perhaps we might say 'Mr Rutte, head of NATO you must find a way of decisively winning WWIII if it starts next week with the USA on the other side'.

    Or 'Mr Rutte, you are head of NATO, please get Trump into line by Tuesday'.

    All easy to say. Could it be that Mr Z has enough to do, and twenty European heads of state (population 400,000,000) should start ganging up on Mr Trump and do some of the dirty work themselves?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,859
    algarkirk said:

    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."

    But how useful? Suppose Rutte had said 'Dear Mr Trump, top NATO power POTUS, you must find a way to stop doing everything Putin tells you to'.

    Or perhaps we might say 'Mr Rutte, head of NATO you must find a way of decisively winning WWIII if it starts next week with the USA on the other side'.

    Or 'Mr Rutte, you are head of NATO, please get Trump into line by Tuesday'.

    All easy to say. Could it be that Mr Z has enough to do, and twenty European heads of state (population 400,000,000) should start ganging up on Mr Trump and do some of the dirty work themselves?
    And should have been doing so from 2016 if not 2014.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,111
    MattW said:

    Interesting perspective from Anders Puck Neilson:

    Trump and Vance had got themselves into a pickle by imagining they could do a quick fix to an intractable situation they had not found out about, and this is their way of getting out whilst blaming another party. 10 minutes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaCbUtTuLhA

    Yep, Trump talking a few weeks ago about ending the war in a day by threatening Russia with 'sanctions' showed laughable ignorance. He probably also only realised too late that signing a minerals deal with Ukraine wouldn't actually stop the fighting, so they had to blame Zelenskyy for Trump's abject failure to 'end the war in 24 hours'. Pathetic.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436

    Eabhal said:

    nico67 said:

    Zelenskyy is apparently going to meet King Charles tomorrow . I’m really pleased about that and good to see Starmer pushing the boat out to make Zelenskyy feel loved which is true of how the vast majority of Brits feel about him .

    Hopefully the vast majority of British people don't feel anything so nauseatingly un-British.
    A small nation standing up to a dictator is pretty much the origin myth of the British people.
    It's all about 'owning the libs' for Luckyguy. Same can be said for JD Vance, to be honest.
    JD Vance and Luckyguy1983 ever been seen in the same room?
    I thought I recognised him in the OvalOffice during the frat-boy mugging of the President of Ukraine.

    I have been fairly agnostic about Ukraine, but after this week I am flying the flag, something I don't believe disingenous Putin- Trump shill @williamglenn should be doing.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,805
    edited March 1
    It’s time the media stopped calling the stain on humanity the leader of the free world .

    Only today people are being fired from Voice of America because they’re not showing enough cowering to Trump .

    This is how it all starts, the media become more and more frightened of repercussions and start sanewashing what’s happening .

    The only free speech the far right like is one they agree with .
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,968
    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,069
    kinabalu said:

    Too busy to spend time loafing about here today.

    I've sandwiched it in between real life stuff.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,069

    Eabhal said:

    nico67 said:

    Zelenskyy is apparently going to meet King Charles tomorrow . I’m really pleased about that and good to see Starmer pushing the boat out to make Zelenskyy feel loved which is true of how the vast majority of Brits feel about him .

    Hopefully the vast majority of British people don't feel anything so nauseatingly un-British.
    A small nation standing up to a dictator is pretty much the origin myth of the British people.
    It's all about 'owning the libs' for Luckyguy. Same can be said for JD Vance, to be honest.
    JD Vance and Luckyguy1983 ever been seen in the same room?
    I thought I recognised him in the OvalOffice during the frat-boy mugging of the President of Ukraine.

    I have been fairly agnostic about Ukraine, but after this week I am flying the flag, something I don't believe disingenous Putin- Trump shill @williamglenn should be doing.
    Vance is 1984's version of LuckyGuy
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,805
    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Absolutely not . The King will be just fine with that .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436

    ...

    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."

    Rutte is speaking with a forked tongue. Was he trained by the BBC? Did he not see the Oval Office mugging? Rutte is asking Zelensky to herd a bunch of particularly vicious cats. Rutte needs to wade in and earn his substantial salary.
    Rutte is speaking the truth, whether you and I like it or not.

    The pictures of Starmer and Zelensky are quite moving.
    Trump's pitch needs to be rolled, but pressure should be brought to bear by others on Ukraine's behalf. Trump is lost in a foggy haze of "Zelensky disrespected me by not wearing a suit and is friends with Hunter Biden".
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,111
    The transcript of Ezra Klein's talk with Fareed Zakaria is well worth a read

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,805

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Of course not.

    Furthermore, Charles should go for the English Nobility on Sunday look- seventy year old tweed held together with string.

    Show those upstarts across the Atlantic what proper class looks like.
    Although it would be quite funny to see heads exploding in the WH if he did wear a suit .
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,598

    algarkirk said:

    https://www.dw.com/en/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-must-be-heard-after-trump-clash/live-71793304#liveblog-post-71794270

    NATO chief: Zelenskyy must 'find a way' to fix ties with Trump

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy must "find a way" to restore his relationship with US counterpart Donald Trump, NATO chief Mark Rutte told the BBC on Saturday, a day after Zelenskyy and Trump clashed at the White House.

    Rutte said that he had told Zelenskyy: "You have to find a way, dear Volodymyr, to restore your relationship with Donald Trump and the American administration."

    But how useful? Suppose Rutte had said 'Dear Mr Trump, top NATO power POTUS, you must find a way to stop doing everything Putin tells you to'.

    Or perhaps we might say 'Mr Rutte, head of NATO you must find a way of decisively winning WWIII if it starts next week with the USA on the other side'.

    Or 'Mr Rutte, you are head of NATO, please get Trump into line by Tuesday'.

    All easy to say. Could it be that Mr Z has enough to do, and twenty European heads of state (population 400,000,000) should start ganging up on Mr Trump and do some of the dirty work themselves?
    And should have been doing so from 2016 if not 2014.
    Yes. What looks like possibly the case - USA is not on the same side as the free west - is utterly tragic, and I hope it can be turned round. But this requires no more Mr Nice Guy from western heads of state, and a clear acceptance that even though it seems horrible and impossible, the biggest burden must if needed be borne by Germany, France, UK, Poland etc.

    UK and France have nuclear defences not for use but for real reasons. What appears to be occurring now is one of them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,750
    nico67 said:

    It’s time the media stopped calling the stain on humanity the leader of the free world .

    Only today people are being fired from Voice of America because they’re not showing enough cowering to Trump .

    This is how it all starts, the media become more and more frightened of repercussions and start sanewashing what’s happening .

    The only free speech the far right like is one they agree with .

    I don't think that's confined to the right.

    What i do find astonishing, though, is the extent to which suppressors of free speech parade themselves as champions of it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436
    edited March 1
    kamski said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    No
    HMG should buy him a tailored Anthony Sinclair (Sean Connery's James Bond's tailor) suit for the meeting with Chas just to piss off the orange monster.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,230
    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,548
    nico67 said:

    It’s time the media stopped calling the stain on humanity the leader of the free world .

    Only today people are being fired from Voice of America because they’re not showing enough cowering to Trump .

    This is how it all starts, the media become more and more frightened of repercussions and start sanewashing what’s happening .

    The only free speech the far right like is one they agree with .

    The media have been sane washing him a fair bit all the way through the campaign to be honest. He was treated as just another GOP candidate for POTUS and not the threat he literally told them he was.

    Now it will just intensify.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,111
    kamski said:

    The transcript of Ezra Klein's talk with Fareed Zakaria is well worth a read

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html

    Starts:

    "To the extent you feel you can define it, what’s the Trump doctrine?

    Part of the problem with Trump is that he is so mercurial. He’s so idiosyncratic that, just when you think you figured out the Trump doctrine, he goes and says something that kind of sounds like the opposite of the Trump doctrine.
    But I do think that there is one coherent worldview that Trump seems to espouse and has espoused for a long time. The first ad he took out when he was a real estate developer was in 1987. It was an ad about how Japan was ripping us off economically and Europe was ripping us off by free-riding on security. And what that represents, fundamentally, is a rejection of the open international system that the United States and Europe have built over the last eight decades."
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,598

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Of course not.

    Furthermore, Charles should go for the English Nobility on Sunday look- seventy year old tweed held together with string.

    Show those upstarts across the Atlantic what proper class looks like.
    This is so serious it may call for red trousers.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    A tee shirt with **** off you orange **** printed on it?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,062
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    The transcript of Ezra Klein's talk with Fareed Zakaria is well worth a read

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html

    Starts:

    "To the extent you feel you can define it, what’s the Trump doctrine?

    Part of the problem with Trump is that he is so mercurial. He’s so idiosyncratic that, just when you think you figured out the Trump doctrine, he goes and says something that kind of sounds like the opposite of the Trump doctrine.
    But I do think that there is one coherent worldview that Trump seems to espouse and has espoused for a long time. The first ad he took out when he was a real estate developer was in 1987. It was an ad about how Japan was ripping us off economically and Europe was ripping us off by free-riding on security. And what that represents, fundamentally, is a rejection of the open international system that the United States and Europe have built over the last eight decades."
    Trump’s first visit to Russia was in 1987.

    I know it’s considered paranoiac to claim that Trump is a Russian operative but he certainly behaves like it much of the time.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,544
    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    maxh said:

    Leon said:

    maxh said:

    DavidL said:

    What really seemed to upset Vance and Trump was Zelensky campaigning in Pennsylvania for the Democrats and that wasn't, in fairness, the smartest move. Thank goodness none of our parties were stupid enough to send supporters to campaign for Harris.

    I agree this was definitely a trigger. In that context it's funny that Starmer got away with Labour's actions. Once again it shows that this was a hatchet job on Z.
    Starmer didn't get away with anything Trump and Vance are seriously harsh about Starmer's restricting free speech and the Apple backdoor nonsense

    Watch the WHOLE press conference
    I mean specifically the Labour representatives going to campaign for Harris. I didn't see Trump or Vance use that against Starmer; did I miss it?
    I think that all of this is a series of tactical exaggerations / misrepresentations, tbh.

    Here is an FT piece about a group of Republicans coming to the UK in 2015 to help the Tories campaign in marginal seats. Campaigning with sister parties over the pond is just normal, and has been so since the time of Mrs Thatcher, and perhaps earlier (I wasn't around).
    https://www.ft.com/content/48d94f08-e82b-11e4-9960-00144feab7de

    The President of Ukraine visiting a US Munitions plant with a representative of the US Govt to thank the workers for making shells for his country is actually exactly what Vance was demanding, ie gratitude. The issue is perhaps the Vance fantasises about the state as politicised against him. Vance's demands about "have you thanked us" are nonsense, the USA already having been thanked again at the start of the meeting. I say Vance's upset is entirely tactical.

    The free speech stuff is weird. The examples in Vance's Munich speech were fabrications - whether because he's manipulating or because he's ignorant I cannot tell. "Facebook poster jailed for hurty words" claims I have seen have almost all been for far more serious offences, such as calling for hotels full of brown people to be burnt down with the brown people still in them. That's an attempted wedge issue by elements on the Right of our politics, in the hope of using talking points that used to belong to the BNP and similar to build a support base.

    IMO it's all mainly Trump & Vance reacting to images they have projected on the inside of their own heads, or a deliberate political tactic. Vance gets seriously harsh when anyone refuses to kneel down and lick the boots.

    Bollocks, people ARE doing jailtime for social media, and cops are knocking on doors for literally NON crime "hate incidents"

    Free speech is under attack in the UK in a way we have not seen in many decades. Meanwhile we suddenly have a de facto blasphemy law that only protects Islam

    There are many reasons to abhor Trump, one of them - for me - is this: his oafish, New Jersey Mafia Don impression is slowing the advance of the new right that will reverse all this shit. Cf Canada
    It feels to me like Western Democracy - the amazing fruit of the Enlightenment - is dying.

    What is clear is that Europe, plus Canada, Australia & NZ - these places will be the last bastions of Western Democracy, not the US.

    The imminent failure of the US as key pillar of democarcy on the alt-right, no one else.
    It really is dying. The stats don't lie

    EIU’s 2024 Democracy Index: trend of global democratic decline and strengthening authoritarianism continues through 2024

    https://www.eiu.com/n/democracy-index-2024/
    Not much of a surprise. Full democracies has never been as numerous as people in the West think, and several places are backsliding. Any going in the other direction need to be celebrated.
    I believe, long term, that democracy is dead
    Well, we need to change that - pronto - because one thing linked to the death of democracy is a lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

    Extra-judicial killings and violence is normal. And that could include you.
    A lot of people like the idea of a strong man leader, a leviathan who who won't be constrained by the slowness of democratic systems and will do exactly what they want.

    The problem is that one is equally likely to get a strong man leader who shares none of your views and values and who hates people like you: so @Leon ends up with a Jeremy Corbyn strongman, not a Marine Le Pen one.

    And, then, of course: how do you get rid of them? The messiness of democracy suddenly looks a lot less unattractive.

    What I think we need, though, is to tweak our democratic system so that politicians get the message they're making a mistake quicker. The Chagos deal, for example, is liked by (as far as I can tell) Starmer and... umm... Starmer's mum.

    How do we introduce feedback systems around - say EU membership, or Chagos, or shooting up immigration, so that politicians can make smaller decisions quicker (incrementalism) rather than making massive changes (often over-corrections) every four years.
    The one organisation in Western politics that has shown it has the ability to dispatch failing leaders quickly is the Conservative party, so perhaps we should expand the 1922 Committee model to national government.

    We could let Graham Brady veto policies at his discretion if he receives an undisclosed number of letters.
    William the quality of your trolling comes and goes, but this is top notch stuff. Chapeau.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,324

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    Zelensky will be wearing the same outfit he has worn every day since the war began...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,984

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    A tee shirt with **** off you orange **** printed on it?
    Yes, nothing could help Ukraine more at this moment than pissing off the thin skinned leader of the most powerful military in the world so we can giggle about the LOLs.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,083
    .
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    Zelensky will be wearing the same outfit he has worn every day since the war began...
    I hope he's washed it in that time!
  • glwglw Posts: 10,239
    Fair play to Starmer that's how a British PM should greet an ally who is fighting an invader.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,230

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    The transcript of Ezra Klein's talk with Fareed Zakaria is well worth a read

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html

    Starts:

    "To the extent you feel you can define it, what’s the Trump doctrine?

    Part of the problem with Trump is that he is so mercurial. He’s so idiosyncratic that, just when you think you figured out the Trump doctrine, he goes and says something that kind of sounds like the opposite of the Trump doctrine.
    But I do think that there is one coherent worldview that Trump seems to espouse and has espoused for a long time. The first ad he took out when he was a real estate developer was in 1987. It was an ad about how Japan was ripping us off economically and Europe was ripping us off by free-riding on security. And what that represents, fundamentally, is a rejection of the open international system that the United States and Europe have built over the last eight decades."
    Trump’s first visit to Russia was in 1987.

    I know it’s considered paranoiac to claim that Trump is a Russian operative but he certainly behaves like it much of the time.
    Robert Harris wrote ‘The Ghost’, loosely modelled on the Blair’s, with the idea that the PMs wife was an agent of a foreign power and had been from the start. But that’s fiction. Does anyone seriously believe that Trump is a Russian agent? The more prosaic explanation is that he is a massive arse who wants the put USA first. Unpalatable as it is to us in Europe there is an element of truth to the idea that Western Europe has had an easy ride with the US playing role of global peacekeeper. Countries like Ireland, for instance, absolutely take the piss assured that Britain will defend them, and many Americans will say the same about Europe. Isolationism in the US isn’t a new thing, after all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,750
    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    A tee shirt with **** off you orange **** printed on it?
    Yes, nothing could help Ukraine more at this moment than pissing off the thin skinned leader of the most powerful military in the world so we can giggle about the LOLs.
    It's not clear that kowtowing or imploring him helps either.

    Perhaps we're better off admitting that US support for Ukraine is over, and working out how we can help move the frontline so that Ukraine is negotiating from a position of strength.

    I do wonder if the right answer is simply for Europe - the US, France, Germany and Poland - to deploy troops to Ukraine. Now, sure, that means the end of NATO, but candidly isn't it over anyway? Does anyway truly believe that the US would send troops to defend Estonia?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,324
    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    A tee shirt with **** off you orange **** printed on it?
    Yes, nothing could help Ukraine more at this moment than pissing off the thin skinned leader of the most powerful military in the world so we can giggle about the LOLs.
    It's not clear that kowtowing or imploring him helps either.

    Perhaps we're better off admitting that US support for Ukraine is over, and working out how we can help move the frontline so that Ukraine is negotiating from a position of strength.

    I do wonder if the right answer is simply for Europe - the UK, France, Germany and Poland - to deploy troops to Ukraine. Now, sure, that means the end of NATO, but candidly isn't it over anyway? Does anyway truly believe that the US would send troops to defend Estonia?
    I assume you mean the UK not the US.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,062
    Geopolitically, it’s odd that the UK is Ukraine’s number 1 ally. The UK wasn’t even a signatory of the Minsk agreement.

    But that’s the current reality.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,694
    I assume Trump will be bigly pissed off that such an inferior being as Zelensky is meeting the king.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,324

    Geopolitically, it’s odd that the UK is Ukraine’s number 1 ally. The UK wasn’t even a signatory of the Minsk agreement.

    But that’s the current reality.

    The reality is we see right from wrong and because it's harder to invade us we don't have the quibbles other European countries have.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,083

    Geopolitically, it’s odd that the UK is Ukraine’s number 1 ally. The UK wasn’t even a signatory of the Minsk agreement.

    But that’s the current reality.

    Not entirely odd, there's a reason the Russians hate us.

    It is the right thing to do and to the credit of successive governments of different parties that it is the case.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,019

    I assume Trump will be bigly pissed off that such an inferior being as Zelensky is meeting the king.

    Good.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,083

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    The transcript of Ezra Klein's talk with Fareed Zakaria is well worth a read

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html

    Starts:

    "To the extent you feel you can define it, what’s the Trump doctrine?

    Part of the problem with Trump is that he is so mercurial. He’s so idiosyncratic that, just when you think you figured out the Trump doctrine, he goes and says something that kind of sounds like the opposite of the Trump doctrine.
    But I do think that there is one coherent worldview that Trump seems to espouse and has espoused for a long time. The first ad he took out when he was a real estate developer was in 1987. It was an ad about how Japan was ripping us off economically and Europe was ripping us off by free-riding on security. And what that represents, fundamentally, is a rejection of the open international system that the United States and Europe have built over the last eight decades."
    Trump’s first visit to Russia was in 1987.

    I know it’s considered paranoiac to claim that Trump is a Russian operative but he certainly behaves like it much of the time.
    Robert Harris wrote ‘The Ghost’, loosely modelled on the Blair’s, with the idea that the PMs wife was an agent of a foreign power and had been from the start. But that’s fiction. Does anyone seriously believe that Trump is a Russian agent? The more prosaic explanation is that he is a massive arse who wants the put USA first. Unpalatable as it is to us in Europe there is an element of truth to the idea that Western Europe has had an easy ride with the US playing role of global peacekeeper. Countries like Ireland, for instance, absolutely take the piss assured that Britain will defend them, and many Americans will say the same about Europe. Isolationism in the US isn’t a new thing, after all.
    It would be much better if Trump wanted to put America first.

    The problem is that Trump wants to put Trump first.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 510

    I assume Trump will be bigly pissed off that such an inferior being as Zelensky is meeting the king.

    Presume that it devalues the meeting promised so avoids embarrassing the King sometime in the future.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 510
    edited March 1
    On another subject. The BBC has stated (is it true @Jim_Miller) that VP is a ceremonial position and as such has no political weight at all. If so, it appears to suggest that Vance has been promised something by the people behind the people and has shown his hand.

    Wonder how Trump will respond over time to the threat from within.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,268
    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    I think the King should turn up in his military uniform…
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,219
    Imagine a Federal Europe with a huge military under central command and control. Game changer.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,829

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to attack Reform over Russia after recent spat and polling showing people are overwhelmingly, and rightly, pro Ukraine.

    May claw a few points back.

    It’s sad labour has no domestic record to cling to. This may work short term but labour needs to improve peoples loaves.

    Reeves budget won’t do that.

    https://x.com/pippacrerar/status/1895810146758271208?s=61

    Unfortunately Reeves is half a loaf short of a picnic.

    Oh, it was a typo?
    Has familiarity bread contempt?
    A rye observation.
    The original comment was a lot more sour, dough.
    Reeves actually do a really great sourdough:

    image

    https://www.reevethebaker.co.uk
    That’s Reeve not Reeves.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,829
    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    A tee shirt with **** off you orange **** printed on it?
    Yes, nothing could help Ukraine more at this moment than pissing off the thin skinned leader of the most powerful military in the world so we can giggle about the LOLs.
    True, buts that’s the level of insight we now get here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436
    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    Obviously. The king should always wear a suit.

    Zelensky should wear what he thinks is appropriate.
    A tee shirt with **** off you orange **** printed on it?
    Yes, nothing could help Ukraine more at this moment than pissing off the thin skinned leader of the most powerful military in the world so we can giggle about the LOLs.
    I omitted to mention the printed picture of the Trump in his diaper inflatable. That should do the trick.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    I think the King should turn up in his military uniform…
    Chas could always rock up in his military fatigues rather than his dress uniform.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,308
    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    The King should take him to Churchill’s tailors*. And there pay for a siren suit as worn by WSC.

    *Turnbull & Asser
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,901

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    The transcript of Ezra Klein's talk with Fareed Zakaria is well worth a read

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html

    Starts:

    "To the extent you feel you can define it, what’s the Trump doctrine?

    Part of the problem with Trump is that he is so mercurial. He’s so idiosyncratic that, just when you think you figured out the Trump doctrine, he goes and says something that kind of sounds like the opposite of the Trump doctrine.
    But I do think that there is one coherent worldview that Trump seems to espouse and has espoused for a long time. The first ad he took out when he was a real estate developer was in 1987. It was an ad about how Japan was ripping us off economically and Europe was ripping us off by free-riding on security. And what that represents, fundamentally, is a rejection of the open international system that the United States and Europe have built over the last eight decades."
    Trump’s first visit to Russia was in 1987.

    I know it’s considered paranoiac to claim that Trump is a Russian operative but he certainly behaves like it much of the time.
    Robert Harris wrote ‘The Ghost’, loosely modelled on the Blair’s, with the idea that the PMs wife was an agent of a foreign power and had been from the start. But that’s fiction. Does anyone seriously believe that Trump is a Russian agent? The more prosaic explanation is that he is a massive arse who wants the put USA first. Unpalatable as it is to us in Europe there is an element of truth to the idea that Western Europe has had an easy ride with the US playing role of global peacekeeper. Countries like Ireland, for instance, absolutely take the piss assured that Britain will defend them, and many Americans will say the same about Europe. Isolationism in the US isn’t a new thing, after all.
    It would be much better if Trump wanted to put America first.

    The problem is that Trump wants to put Trump first.
    ...and Russia second.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,436
    kinabalu said:

    Imagine a Federal Europe with a huge military under central command and control. Game changer.

    Has @williamglenn circa 2016 hacked your account?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,083
    kinabalu said:

    Imagine a Federal Europe with a huge military under central command and control. Game changer.

    It would be a disaster, we would have a single point of failure just like we do in America. Imagine that military being controlled by a European Trump, Orban or Schroder.

    Why would you possibly want that?

    Far better to imagine a coalition of European nations that actually spend a decent amount on their militaries each, who can work together.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,927

    Scott_xP said:

    Zelensky is meeting the King tomorrow

    Should he wear a suit..?

    I think the King should turn up in his military uniform…
    Probably tone down the chestful of medals for keeping his pencils sharpened though.
Sign In or Register to comment.