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The Trump legacy, the UK chooses Europe over the open sea? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,802

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Have they explained how they are going to fund all of their policies yet?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,434

    viewcode said:

    Senator John Kennedy (the junior United States senator from Louisiana) has objections to the Chagos Islands deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FKJ1zyRSY

    Thanks for that post, it’s fantastic. It confirms everything I have been explaining about this.

    US are playing us as their bitch on Chagos - have been doing so all along. It’s there in all the things your man didn’t say and spun around - that as patriotic Britains in our interest, not theirs, things we need to be mindful of, to cut through any “spin” in the video. I’ll repeat them, yet again.

    Take the key bit, where he talks about standing beside us as we take “a hit” at the United Nations. At least he was honest about the hit - many PB pirates claim there will be no such hit!

    But US won’t be taking the hit. The UN assembly have passed motions for UK to cede sovereignty, their courts have found against us on the illegality on which we took the islands, and I agree we could say no, keep appealing against it - but do you concede we cannot do this stalling without at least some reputational damage, self inflicted hit upon a senior leader in the institution?

    As we swallow their “just trying to save us from our own mistake” spin your video was 100% about: we know United States (and India) behind all the “we are your special friend” have never been fans but belligerent enemies of British Colonialism - hacking away at Britains Old Empire and influence for most last hundred years - whilst, where it suits them like this - using us to do the messy stuff for them, like ethically cleanse Chagos.

    When he repeats Mauritius want £18B the same £9B over 100 years lease money, but inflation proofed, that came into us after newspaper reports about Mauritius government allegedly said the agreement was inflation proofed, but both parties in the negotiation clearly and consistently deny that’s any part of the package - like we can’t guess now who planted that in the press to support their argument - are you quite comfortable repeating £18B?

    I still claim I have the British Foreign Office and Chatham House on my side - whilst you have a Populist UK press and the US Gentleman in the video coaching you. These are the key facts I think supporting my argument, that I am wary about facing down the UN on this, as MAGA want us to: How history got us here consists of US calling all the shots on Chagos since mid 60s, such as ethically cleanse the island, which we did for them. UK negotiated this new deal not independently from USA, but with the Biden Administration - who obviously liked it as they wrote it. And India likes it too.

    To what degree do you sense you have been, and maybe still being played by the likes of the Gentleman in the video?
    In fairness to me, I didn't present the link to argue for a case, I presented it to inform the discussion. Although I do have opinions on political matters, and my opinion on Chagos is on record (give them independence uncompensated and just leave: *we* aren't going to be fighting a war in the Pacific), this wasn't such a situation: I genuinely thought you and the others would like to hear it.

    In short, it wasn't "my" video, it wasn't "my" man, and "I" wasn't coached.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,895
    edited February 9
    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    Wonder what the Tory membership numbers will be in a years time when non renewals who joined for the leadership election work their way through? Feeling they might end up like the unpopular kid at high school who nobody want to invite to the prom.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    Epic defence from the scotch people
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,895
    edited February 9
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
    It was a genuine movement. Didn't get walloped first time around. A slightly cannier operator probably would have won. I always wonder if it had been John McDonald as the leader, Magic Grandpa as the sidekick, as McDonald will allow himself to say things that are against his real principles for longer term goals.

    Maomentum movement was like Reform pushing on an open door of dissatisfaction. I completely understand why so many people joined up.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,895
    edited February 9
    Leon said:

    Epic defence from the scotch South African people playing in Blue playing about the Kiwis in green

    Fixed for you...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,214
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,538
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Pathetic. When they get to 1.6 million they'll be on par with the SNP.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    I dunno. A fuck of a lot of us are REALLY ANGRY
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,066
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
    It was a genuine movement. Didn't get walloped first time around.
    Yes, including me. And 2017 did feel like a win. Great memories.

    But with almost triple these RUK numbers they did not make it into power. That's all I'm saying. Don't get too excited.

    Or, no, second thoughts, do. Do get excited. Why deny oneself that. I got excited about a radical left breakthrough and I don't regret doing so.

    But, you know, don't get carried away. Excited, yes. Carried away, no.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,895
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
    It was a genuine movement. Didn't get walloped first time around.
    Yes, including me. And 2017 did feel like a win. Great memories.

    But with almost triple these RUK numbers they did not make it into power. That's all I'm saying. Don't get too excited.

    Or, no, second thoughts, do. Do get excited. Why deny oneself that. I got excited about a radical left breakthrough and I don't regret doing so.

    But, you know, don't get carried away. Excited, yes. Carried away, no.
    I am certainly not excited by the prospect....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,000
    edited February 9
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    edited February 9
    Ireland completely dominant

    How do they do it? Not a huge player pool. Yet they’ve been the best European team for half a decade

    It isn’t just cleverly stealing foreigners
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Have they explained how they are going to fund all of their policies yet?
    Has Sir Wonga.com explained how he found £18bn down the back of the sofa to jizz at Mauritius when he said we had a £22bn black hole in the public finances yet?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
    They had been going since the 1920s. Reform has been going for all of 20 minutes. And it doesn't cost a pound to join Reform. Even the young person's membership is £10 afaicr.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431
    edit
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    Citation required.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,802
    edited February 9

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Have they explained how they are going to fund all of their policies yet?
    Has Sir Wonga.com explained how he found £18bn down the back of the sofa to jizz at Mauritius when he said we had a £22bn black hole in the public finances yet?
    With all due respect, that is incredibly immature.

    I asked a reasonable question about Reform's policy platform. The current government has nothing to do with that question.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,667
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    1. I thought Reform were cuddly right, not 'hard right'?
    2. Your maths is poor. 'As most of us do' - looks like around a quarter, or just over, at the moment.
  • Good afternoon

    The test for Reform and the other parties comes in the slimmed down locals this May, then ongoing locals and possible by elections before their biggest test in May 2026 when Wales and Scotland elect their devolved governments

    As a conservative I am not as negative as many are on here, but then most of the critics would not vote for the party anyway

    Lots of 'events' will happen not just to Spring 26, but beyond to our next GE, but what is evident at present is the utter disillusionment with Starmer, Reeves and Labour as they throw away any goodwill they had last July and are likely to be on the defensive throughout the rest of this parliament

    The next GE is open to almost any result
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    Ven der Merwe is a genius
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,940

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    1. I thought Reform were cuddly right, not 'hard right'?
    2. Your maths is poor. 'As most of us do' - looks like around a quarter, or just over, at the moment.
    "Us" in the Thatcherite, "Monty Python... Is he one of us?" sense.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Does anyone else watch/listen to the “podcast” Uncanny?

    The case of Hollymount Farm is one of the clearest examples of a haunting I’ve encountered. Still might be total bull, of course

    Excellent series. The first is on iPlayer as well. You may think it's bunkum, but it's very entertaining.
    Yeah it’s great. A lot of the stories are quite easily explicable (but still entertaining). A few stand out as Whoah

    The Battersea Poltergeist was one. Also that terrifying Scottish bothy. And now Hollymount Farm. Brrrr

    Danny Robbins is a very gifted presenter - likeable and plausible. Never sensational
    Bothies can be deeply unsettling if you're by yourself, no signal and more than a day's walk away from civilisation.
    It’s all nonsense. Good fun but nonsense.

    The guy who presents Uncanny is fairly decent (although seeing him on tv makes me think of D:Ream); however for me to even vaguely consider the possibility of a ghost it would have to appear in front on me, in broad daylight, and consent to a range of tests in lab conditions. And even then my reaction would be “that’s a bloody good illusion”.

    The story always involves someone in a dark, unsettling location, under psychological pressure and/or in search of an easy answer to explain a more profound trauma.

    To summarise: I ain’t afraid of no ghost.
    For me this is as ludicrously over-confident as someone who insists that QAnon is real

    How can you know? How many people screen out jarring or bizarre visual evidence simply because it makes no sense? To their world view?

    Check the gorilla on the basketball court - a famous experiment

    Or think back to how many people dismissed the idea of a global Covid pandemic until the last moment - because it had never happened before and therefore could never happen
    Read the actual words. I am applying sensible scepticism which used to be mainstream until the West started going weird (insert essay here about the death of mainstream religion having a bad side as well as a good one).

    If you want me to develop the point, what I am saying is this: no matter how credible the individual seems, if they report that an object moved by itself or a person appeared and disappearing, there are many KNOWN explanations we can reach for before we toy with an unknown one.

    I am scientist. I would love us to discover a new complexity to the universe. And as you say, in many ways we know nothing. But anything we discover must be measured and codified to prove that it is something new. Otherwise, we might as well go back to pagan gods.

    Ghosts, in the sense of the dead speaking to the living, must also answer the same logic challenge as UFOs. Why do so cryptically and not in the open in front of everyone? If my grandparents could speak to me from beyond the veil, I am confident they would do just that. Politely knock on the door and come in for a chat.

    If they are meant to be a sort of “psychic imprint” then why aren’t they everywhere?
    Suppose there are realities that cannot be measured and codified. Take this proposition: "On planet earth torturing children for fun is always wrong". Now I think that is true, not because I think it and not because lots of people think it but because its a truth arising from the moral fabric of the universe. I accept I may be wrong. But I don't accept that it stops being true if lots of people stop thinking it or f I stop thinking it. I think it is objectively true. Which would make it as much part of total reality - what makes up the universe - as quarks and oak trees and the law of gravity.

    That is exactly what I think, and it requires no extant divinity to think it, as Kant helpfully but not very simply pointed out in about 1790.
    So you'll still think it's true even if you stop thinking it's true?
    That's imprecise but on the right lines. If the proposition I mentioned is true regardless of any personal opinion anyone might hold (which entails moral objectivity being true, a view held by many interesting people, for example Kant, Aristotle and Iris Murdoch) then I think it is the case that it is is true even in circumstances where I think it is false (as in me being an amoral teenager, a believer in the ethics of David Hume, when drunk, when suffering a psychotic episode, when I am the Southport killer etc). Hope that's clear.

    Ie, I propose that 'Torturing children for fun is always wrong' is true, even even in contexts where everyone thinks it's false. It isn't mind dependent.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    1. I thought Reform were cuddly right, not 'hard right'?
    2. Your maths is poor. 'As most of us do' - looks like around a quarter, or just over, at the moment.
    Re 2 - it looks as if within MOE labour, conservatives and reform are around the 25% figure and I would venture NOA are the voters view
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    Most of us ?????
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,940

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    Most of us ?????
    Byronic, LadyG, Eadric...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,775

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    Most of us ?????
    All the Leons do.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
    They had been going since the 1920s. Reform has been going for all of 20 minutes. And it doesn't cost a pound to join Reform. Even the young person's membership is £10 afaicr.
    They had not been going since the 1920s. They formed in 2015.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    MJW said:

    Battlebus said:

    Off topic slightly and something that puzzles me somewhat - why is there no party standing up for an English Parliament? Your could do away with the HoL and make Westminster the upper Chamber. If Reform were to suggest it, would that kill one-nation Conservatism.

    Because it wouldn't work in that England really is too large an entity to have as one part of a federal style system. Plus, why would those places which feel disconnected to Westminster because it's remote from their interests want to replace it with one whose centre of gravity was tilted even more to London and the South East than the UK one?

    It's a bad idea put forward every so often by those who think it would give their kind of English nationalism a whip hand in the UK, without thinking about regional differences and that federal type structures can only work with some balance between their composite parts.
    And yet the current system with the government of the UK acting as the government of England causes problems - this is one of the lessons of Covid.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    The polls show more people will vote to Rejoin that would vote for Reform.
  • Penalty to Plymouth
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    The polls show more people will vote to Rejoin that would vote for Reform.
    Yeah. Vote to rejoin a Europe run by Meloni and le pen and Wilders, et Al

    What does rbat tell you? Remainers are fash? If you say so
  • Plymouth 1 - Liverpool 0
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    I am wondering whether your support of what you call the 'hard right' movement - which seems to embrace Trumpism and Reform - might need firming up a bit in its principles if American Trumpism goes down the track of overlooking, countermanding and ignoring, if necessary by force, the rule of law as embodied in orders of courts.

    On another point, I don't think Reform is especially 'right', hard or otherwise. It stands for something very like the 1950s social democratic welfare state deal + low migation (which in itself is neither left nor right) + populist nationalism + (of course) the costings and economics of the madhouse.

    When I look at Trump's gangster oligarchy and ask 'Would he call in the troops to enforce defiance of a court order' I answer 'Yes.

    Would Farage? No.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Does anyone else watch/listen to the “podcast” Uncanny?

    The case of Hollymount Farm is one of the clearest examples of a haunting I’ve encountered. Still might be total bull, of course

    Excellent series. The first is on iPlayer as well. You may think it's bunkum, but it's very entertaining.
    Yeah it’s great. A lot of the stories are quite easily explicable (but still entertaining). A few stand out as Whoah

    The Battersea Poltergeist was one. Also that terrifying Scottish bothy. And now Hollymount Farm. Brrrr

    Danny Robbins is a very gifted presenter - likeable and plausible. Never sensational
    Bothies can be deeply unsettling if you're by yourself, no signal and more than a day's walk away from civilisation.
    It’s all nonsense. Good fun but nonsense.

    The guy who presents Uncanny is fairly decent (although seeing him on tv makes me think of D:Ream); however for me to even vaguely consider the possibility of a ghost it would have to appear in front on me, in broad daylight, and consent to a range of tests in lab conditions. And even then my reaction would be “that’s a bloody good illusion”.

    The story always involves someone in a dark, unsettling location, under psychological pressure and/or in search of an easy answer to explain a more profound trauma.

    To summarise: I ain’t afraid of no ghost.
    For me this is as ludicrously over-confident as someone who insists that QAnon is real

    How can you know? How many people screen out jarring or bizarre visual evidence simply because it makes no sense? To their world view?

    Check the gorilla on the basketball court - a famous experiment

    Or think back to how many people dismissed the idea of a global Covid pandemic until the last moment - because it had never happened before and therefore could never happen
    Read the actual words. I am applying sensible scepticism which used to be mainstream until the West started going weird (insert essay here about the death of mainstream religion having a bad side as well as a good one).

    If you want me to develop the point, what I am saying is this: no matter how credible the individual seems, if they report that an object moved by itself or a person appeared and disappearing, there are many KNOWN explanations we can reach for before we toy with an unknown one.

    I am scientist. I would love us to discover a new complexity to the universe. And as you say, in many ways we know nothing. But anything we discover must be measured and codified to prove that it is something new. Otherwise, we might as well go back to pagan gods.

    Ghosts, in the sense of the dead speaking to the living, must also answer the same logic challenge as UFOs. Why do so cryptically and not in the open in front of everyone? If my grandparents could speak to me from beyond the veil, I am confident they would do just that. Politely knock on the door and come in for a chat.

    If they are meant to be a sort of “psychic imprint” then why aren’t they everywhere?
    Suppose there are realities that cannot be measured and codified. Take this proposition: "On planet earth torturing children for fun is always wrong". Now I think that is true, not because I think it and not because lots of people think it but because its a truth arising from the moral fabric of the universe. I accept I may be wrong. But I don't accept that it stops being true if lots of people stop thinking it or f I stop thinking it. I think it is objectively true. Which would make it as much part of total reality - what makes up the universe - as quarks and oak trees and the law of gravity.

    That is exactly what I think, and it requires no extant divinity to think it, as Kant helpfully but not very simply pointed out in about 1790.
    So you'll still think it's true even if you stop thinking it's true?
    That's imprecise but on the right lines. If the proposition I mentioned is true regardless of any personal opinion anyone might hold (which entails moral objectivity being true, a view held by many interesting people, for example Kant, Aristotle and Iris Murdoch) then I think it is the case that it is is true even in circumstances where I think it is false (as in me being an amoral teenager, a believer in the ethics of David Hume, when drunk, when suffering a psychotic episode, when I am the Southport killer etc). Hope that's clear.

    Ie, I propose that 'Torturing children for fun is always wrong' is true, even even in contexts where everyone thinks it's false. It isn't mind dependent.
    For all the obvious objections I have some sympathy with your thrust. It's a bit like (although not exactly like) the idea there are certain rights people have which exist (or should exist) over and above democratic politics. Meaning people should not be able to vote them away even if a majority want to. That's something I believe and it isn't a million miles away from what you're driving at.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    I am wondering whether your support of what you call the 'hard right' movement - which seems to embrace Trumpism and Reform - might need firming up a bit in its principles if American Trumpism goes down the track of overlooking, countermanding and ignoring, if necessary by force, the rule of law as embodied in orders of courts.

    On another point, I don't think Reform is especially 'right', hard or otherwise. It stands for something very like the 1950s social democratic welfare state deal + low migation (which in itself is neither left nor right) + populist nationalism + (of course) the costings and economics of the madhouse.

    When I look at Trump's gangster oligarchy and ask 'Would he call in the troops to enforce defiance of a court order' I answer 'Yes.

    Would Farage? No.
    The U.S. is of course a presidential system, and the president has certain regal powers, or perhaps a better claim to them.

    If Farage AND Charles III conspired in some kind of auto-coup, then they’d have a better chance of success.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861
    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    It’s very confusing as to what, exactly, Musk and others are actually doing. The argument right now is about access to data and systems, but the counter argument I suppose is that they are authorised under presidential fiat.

    Separately, one could argue that the shuttering of U.S. Aid and other entities like the Department of Education was promised by Trump on the campaign trail.

    It’s all a bit messy and abstract to the average voter right now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    edited February 9

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    Most of us ?????
    All the Leons do.
    ahem

    image
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    In GE conditions, I think the Labour vote would swell to frustrate Reform, with both the Greens and the DNKs/WNVs turning out in a way they didn't in GE2024. So Labour could get 34-35%, even if Starmer was really hated.

    I don't think the LDs would be squeezed much because their vote is already highly efficient where Labour aren't competitive.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Has Streeting been sacked yet?
  • Has Streeting been sacked yet?

    Why ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Has Streeting been sacked yet?

    Why ?
    Because his Social Media posts are far worse than Andrew Gwynnes
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,160
    The Toad is on Sky again, time to watch something else.

  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 519
    Any ordinary person would be mad to prefer the US of the the eu.

    "Trump’s acting chief of federal financial watchdog orders staff to pause activity...

    The CFPB, which Congress created in the wake of the 2008 financial crash, supervises consumer-facing financial companies like banks, title lenders, mortgage originators and cash transfer services to prevent unfair, deceptive and abusive practices and other predatory conduct."


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/09/trump-acting-chief-cfpb-russ-vought

    The America that is coming into being now looks incredibly unpleasant and hostile to ordinary people... and I go there alot, I am married to an American and have many colleagues and friends there. Not ten wild horses could bring me to move there.
  • ColinRColinR Posts: 6

    It’s very confusing as to what, exactly, Musk and others are actually doing. The argument right now is about access to data and systems, but the counter argument I suppose is that they are authorised under presidential fiat.

    Separately, one could argue that the shuttering of U.S. Aid and other entities like the Department of Education was promised by Trump on the campaign trail.

    It’s all a bit messy and abstract to the average voter right now.

    The judges are now trying to stop him with court orders. Still a mob with baseball bats turning up at the judges houses may concentrate their minds.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941

    Has Streeting been sacked yet?

    Why ?
    Because his Social Media posts are far worse than Andrew Gwynnes
    Do you have any of that evidence stuff to back that up?

    Or are you relying on feels?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Has Streeting been sacked yet?

    Why ?
    Because his Social Media posts are far worse than Andrew Gwynnes
    This is one of many

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1628883/wes-streeting-abusive-tweets-labour-leadership-apologise-update
  • ColinRColinR Posts: 6
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    I am wondering whether your support of what you call the 'hard right' movement - which seems to embrace Trumpism and Reform - might need firming up a bit in its principles if American Trumpism goes down the track of overlooking, countermanding and ignoring, if necessary by force, the rule of law as embodied in orders of courts.

    On another point, I don't think Reform is especially 'right', hard or otherwise. It stands for something very like the 1950s social democratic welfare state deal + low migation (which in itself is neither left nor right) + populist nationalism + (of course) the costings and economics of the madhouse.

    When I look at Trump's gangster oligarchy and ask 'Would he call in the troops to enforce defiance of a court order' I answer 'Yes.

    Would Farage? No.
    Intimidation is Trumps modus operandi. Make your enemies frightened for their safety and you can achieve a lot.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    Oof. This could now be a tonking for Scotland
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431
    edited February 9
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Does anyone else watch/listen to the “podcast” Uncanny?

    The case of Hollymount Farm is one of the clearest examples of a haunting I’ve encountered. Still might be total bull, of course

    Excellent series. The first is on iPlayer as well. You may think it's bunkum, but it's very entertaining.
    Yeah it’s great. A lot of the stories are quite easily explicable (but still entertaining). A few stand out as Whoah

    The Battersea Poltergeist was one. Also that terrifying Scottish bothy. And now Hollymount Farm. Brrrr

    Danny Robbins is a very gifted presenter - likeable and plausible. Never sensational
    Bothies can be deeply unsettling if you're by yourself, no signal and more than a day's walk away from civilisation.
    It’s all nonsense. Good fun but nonsense.

    The guy who presents Uncanny is fairly decent (although seeing him on tv makes me think of D:Ream); however for me to even vaguely consider the possibility of a ghost it would have to appear in front on me, in broad daylight, and consent to a range of tests in lab conditions. And even then my reaction would be “that’s a bloody good illusion”.

    The story always involves someone in a dark, unsettling location, under psychological pressure and/or in search of an easy answer to explain a more profound trauma.

    To summarise: I ain’t afraid of no ghost.
    For me this is as ludicrously over-confident as someone who insists that QAnon is real

    How can you know? How many people screen out jarring or bizarre visual evidence simply because it makes no sense? To their world view?

    Check the gorilla on the basketball court - a famous experiment

    Or think back to how many people dismissed the idea of a global Covid pandemic until the last moment - because it had never happened before and therefore could never happen
    Read the actual words. I am applying sensible scepticism which used to be mainstream until the West started going weird (insert essay here about the death of mainstream religion having a bad side as well as a good one).

    If you want me to develop the point, what I am saying is this: no matter how credible the individual seems, if they report that an object moved by itself or a person appeared and disappearing, there are many KNOWN explanations we can reach for before we toy with an unknown one.

    I am scientist. I would love us to discover a new complexity to the universe. And as you say, in many ways we know nothing. But anything we discover must be measured and codified to prove that it is something new. Otherwise, we might as well go back to pagan gods.

    Ghosts, in the sense of the dead speaking to the living, must also answer the same logic challenge as UFOs. Why do so cryptically and not in the open in front of everyone? If my grandparents could speak to me from beyond the veil, I am confident they would do just that. Politely knock on the door and come in for a chat.

    If they are meant to be a sort of “psychic imprint” then why aren’t they everywhere?
    Suppose there are realities that cannot be measured and codified. Take this proposition: "On planet earth torturing children for fun is always wrong". Now I think that is true, not because I think it and not because lots of people think it but because its a truth arising from the moral fabric of the universe. I accept I may be wrong. But I don't accept that it stops being true if lots of people stop thinking it or f I stop thinking it. I think it is objectively true. Which would make it as much part of total reality - what makes up the universe - as quarks and oak trees and the law of gravity.

    That is exactly what I think, and it requires no extant divinity to think it, as Kant helpfully but not very simply pointed out in about 1790.
    So you'll still think it's true even if you stop thinking it's true?
    That's imprecise but on the right lines. If the proposition I mentioned is true regardless of any personal opinion anyone might hold (which entails moral objectivity being true, a view held by many interesting people, for example Kant, Aristotle and Iris Murdoch) then I think it is the case that it is is true even in circumstances where I think it is false (as in me being an amoral teenager, a believer in the ethics of David Hume, when drunk, when suffering a psychotic episode, when I am the Southport killer etc). Hope that's clear.

    Ie, I propose that 'Torturing children for fun is always wrong' is true, even even in contexts where everyone thinks it's false. It isn't mind dependent.
    For all the obvious objections I have some sympathy with your thrust. It's a bit like (although not exactly like) the idea there are certain rights people have which exist (or should exist) over and above democratic politics. Meaning people should not be able to vote them away even if a majority want to. That's something I believe and it isn't a million miles away from what you're driving at.
    The denial of ethical objectivism is filled with greater objections, to my mind insurmountable. Like the great ethicist Elizabeth Anscombe I just don't want to be in the same room as people who think that it is only an opinion that there is something wrong about the holocaust (or the Southport murders, or torturing children) and that other opinions have equal weight because there is no measure except our mutable
    sentiments. That's David Hume's view when he says, incorrectly,

    it is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger
  • ColinRColinR Posts: 6
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    The polls show more people will vote to Rejoin that would vote for Reform.
    Yeah. Vote to rejoin a Europe run by Meloni and le pen and Wilders, et Al

    What does rbat tell you? Remainers are fash? If you say so
    Indeed europe is more hard right than the uk.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861
    Could Ireland post a cricket score on Scotland?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Has Streeting been sacked yet?

    Why ?
    Because his Social Media posts are far worse than Andrew Gwynnes
    Do you have any of that evidence stuff to back that up?

    Or are you relying on feels?
    I posted 4 examples this morning all threatening violence.

    There are literally dozens
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    The polls show more people will vote to Rejoin that would vote for Reform.
    The polls show more people will vote Tory/Reform than would vote for Rejoin.
  • ColinRColinR Posts: 6

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    Indeed. Fully deserved too. Thr future is in parties much further right unapolegetic about stopping immigration.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793

    Any ordinary person would be mad to prefer the US of the the eu.

    "Trump’s acting chief of federal financial watchdog orders staff to pause activity...

    The CFPB, which Congress created in the wake of the 2008 financial crash, supervises consumer-facing financial companies like banks, title lenders, mortgage originators and cash transfer services to prevent unfair, deceptive and abusive practices and other predatory conduct."


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/09/trump-acting-chief-cfpb-russ-vought

    The America that is coming into being now looks incredibly unpleasant and hostile to ordinary people... and I go there alot, I am married to an American and have many colleagues and friends there. Not ten wild horses could bring me to move there.

    It is not a question of preference. One is a free trading arrangement with some compromises over trade, one is a nascent state that commands a membership fee, control over vast swathes of domestic law, and the supremacy of its own parliament over ours. What the US Government gets up to within its own borders has little to do with it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861
    ColinR said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    Indeed. Fully deserved too. Thr future is in parties much further right unapolegetic about stopping immigration.
    Although, I should say, I question whether they'd be any more effective in stopping it.

    To do so would require a mixture of domestic legal reform and international cooperation, plus executive competence and ruthlessness with passive resistance in the public services.

    I doubt Reform could package all that.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    And Brexit, which fatally weakened their support in southern shires. All roads lead to one Boris Johnson.

    Yet, I expect to see him back before the next election.
  • ColinRColinR Posts: 6

    ColinR said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    Indeed. Fully deserved too. Thr future is in parties much further right unapolegetic about stopping immigration.
    Although, I should say, I question whether they'd be any more effective in stopping it.

    To do so would require a mixture of domestic legal reform and international cooperation, plus executive competence and ruthlessness with passive resistance in the public services.

    I doubt Reform could package all that.
    I agree. Likely not ruthless enough. We need a britain Trump. Perhaps Tommy Robinson.
  • ColinRColinR Posts: 6
    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    ColinR said:

    It’s very confusing as to what, exactly, Musk and others are actually doing. The argument right now is about access to data and systems, but the counter argument I suppose is that they are authorised under presidential fiat.

    Separately, one could argue that the shuttering of U.S. Aid and other entities like the Department of Education was promised by Trump on the campaign trail.

    It’s all a bit messy and abstract to the average voter right now.

    The judges are now trying to stop him with court orders. Still a mob with baseball bats turning up at the judges houses may concentrate their minds.
    The other complication, of course, is that judiciary *is* politicised, by design.

    So it’s v easy actually to write off the legal system as partisan.

    America is going Peronist, or Orbanist, or Erdoganist.
    I agree with poster earlier who suggested that of course elections will continue, just they will be engineered in favor of the Trump regime and dynasty.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431
    ColinR said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    You're sounding like a Corbynite.

    They used to boast about having over half a million members, didn't stop them losing two elections in a row.
    Except this movement is mirrored across the west. The alt.right is on the march everywhere. If you want a hard right government in the UK - as most of us do - then you are cheered by the advances we are all making, from America to France to Italy etc etc
    I am wondering whether your support of what you call the 'hard right' movement - which seems to embrace Trumpism and Reform - might need firming up a bit in its principles if American Trumpism goes down the track of overlooking, countermanding and ignoring, if necessary by force, the rule of law as embodied in orders of courts.

    On another point, I don't think Reform is especially 'right', hard or otherwise. It stands for something very like the 1950s social democratic welfare state deal + low migation (which in itself is neither left nor right) + populist nationalism + (of course) the costings and economics of the madhouse.

    When I look at Trump's gangster oligarchy and ask 'Would he call in the troops to enforce defiance of a court order' I answer 'Yes.

    Would Farage? No.
    Intimidation is Trumps modus operandi. Make your enemies frightened for their safety and you can achieve a lot.
    Indeed. There is a word beginning with F which covers quite a bit of that politics. the absorbing question is the independence of the judicial process, and whether government will successfully defy adverse orders. The next few weeks will be interesting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    Hello.

    Welcome

    Also, if a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
  • ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    That didn't take long
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431

    ColinR said:

    It’s very confusing as to what, exactly, Musk and others are actually doing. The argument right now is about access to data and systems, but the counter argument I suppose is that they are authorised under presidential fiat.

    Separately, one could argue that the shuttering of U.S. Aid and other entities like the Department of Education was promised by Trump on the campaign trail.

    It’s all a bit messy and abstract to the average voter right now.

    The judges are now trying to stop him with court orders. Still a mob with baseball bats turning up at the judges houses may concentrate their minds.
    The other complication, of course, is that judiciary *is* politicised, by design.

    So it’s v easy actually to write off the legal system as partisan.

    America is going Peronist, or Orbanist, or Erdoganist.
    I agree with poster earlier who suggested that of course elections will continue, just they will be engineered in favor of the Trump regime and dynasty.
    Rigging elections is probably easier than rigging the entire judicial process. Pliant courts and court orders met and opposed by government force are open to the face of the world.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604
    What’s with the resurrection of the bloody Mullet !
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    That didn't take long
    Quite right.
    Surely the plural of hydra is hydrae.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,940

    ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    That didn't take long
    I'm sure six posts isn't a record, but it must be close.

    Where's Norris McWhirter when we need him?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,613
    edited February 9

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    If the Tories were facing extinction they would be under 10% not over 20% and even ahead of Labour and Reform on the latest MoreinCommon poll.

    Not all Tory voters are that concerned by immigration anyway, plenty are just traditional middle class One Nation types or small state on economics but relatively socially liberal otherwise.

    Indeed the reason Labour is also now under 30% is many white working class traditional Labour voters are hardline anti immigration even if centrist on economics.

    It is not as if the Tories did nothing on immigration last parliament either. Boris ended free movement from the EEA and Rishi tightened visa and wage requirements for non EU immigrants and their dependents
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 519

    Any ordinary person would be mad to prefer the US of the the eu.

    "Trump’s acting chief of federal financial watchdog orders staff to pause activity...

    The CFPB, which Congress created in the wake of the 2008 financial crash, supervises consumer-facing financial companies like banks, title lenders, mortgage originators and cash transfer services to prevent unfair, deceptive and abusive practices and other predatory conduct."


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/09/trump-acting-chief-cfpb-russ-vought

    The America that is coming into being now looks incredibly unpleasant and hostile to ordinary people... and I go there alot, I am married to an American and have many colleagues and friends there. Not ten wild horses could bring me to move there.

    It is not a question of preference. One is a free trading arrangement with some compromises over trade, one is a nascent state that commands a membership fee, control over vast swathes of domestic law, and the supremacy of its own parliament over ours. What the US Government gets up to within its own borders has little to do with it.
    That is just plain nonsense.
  • Plymouth 1 - Liverpool 0

    After 90 mins

    9 mins of injury time to play
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    If the Tories were facing extinction they would be under 10% not over 20% and even ahead of Labour and Reform on the latest MoreinCommon poll.

    Not all Tory voters are that concerned by immigration anyway, plenty are just traditional One Nation types or small state on economics but relatively socially liberal otherwise.

    Indeed the reason Labour is also now under 30% is many white working class traditional Labour voters are hardline anti immigration even if centrist on economics.

    It is not as if the Tories did nothing on immigration last parliament either. Boris ended free movement from the EEA and Rishi tightened visa and wage requirements for non EU immigrants and their dependents
    Boris opened the floodgates and Rishi, instinctively also pro-immigration and part of the Boriswave regime, simply panicked when he realised what he’s inherited.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Has Streeting been sacked yet?

    Why ?
    Because his Social Media posts are far worse than Andrew Gwynnes
    Do you have any of that evidence stuff to back that up?

    Or are you relying on feels?
    I posted 4 examples this morning all threatening violence.

    There are literally dozens
    Without searching too hard

    I will break your legs

    I am willing to use a rifle

    I will kill you

    Tempted to burn your flat down

    Punch him in the face

    She deserves a slap

    https://x.com/PeterTa06662925/status/1850797388182458464/photo/1
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,587
    https://x.com/iapolls2022/status/1888590821953302593

    CBS Poll: President Trump Approval

    🟢 Approve: 53% (+6)
    🔴 Disapprove: 47%

    The highest approval rating for President Trump in CBS polling history
    ——
    • Ages 18-29: 55-45 (+10)
    • Ages 30-44: 52-48 (+4)
    • Ages 45-64: 56-44 (+12)
    • Ages 65+: 50-50 (=)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Does anyone else watch/listen to the “podcast” Uncanny?

    The case of Hollymount Farm is one of the clearest examples of a haunting I’ve encountered. Still might be total bull, of course

    Excellent series. The first is on iPlayer as well. You may think it's bunkum, but it's very entertaining.
    Yeah it’s great. A lot of the stories are quite easily explicable (but still entertaining). A few stand out as Whoah

    The Battersea Poltergeist was one. Also that terrifying Scottish bothy. And now Hollymount Farm. Brrrr

    Danny Robbins is a very gifted presenter - likeable and plausible. Never sensational
    Bothies can be deeply unsettling if you're by yourself, no signal and more than a day's walk away from civilisation.
    It’s all nonsense. Good fun but nonsense.

    The guy who presents Uncanny is fairly decent (although seeing him on tv makes me think of D:Ream); however for me to even vaguely consider the possibility of a ghost it would have to appear in front on me, in broad daylight, and consent to a range of tests in lab conditions. And even then my reaction would be “that’s a bloody good illusion”.

    The story always involves someone in a dark, unsettling location, under psychological pressure and/or in search of an easy answer to explain a more profound trauma.

    To summarise: I ain’t afraid of no ghost.
    For me this is as ludicrously over-confident as someone who insists that QAnon is real

    How can you know? How many people screen out jarring or bizarre visual evidence simply because it makes no sense? To their world view?

    Check the gorilla on the basketball court - a famous experiment

    Or think back to how many people dismissed the idea of a global Covid pandemic until the last moment - because it had never happened before and therefore could never happen
    Read the actual words. I am applying sensible scepticism which used to be mainstream until the West started going weird (insert essay here about the death of mainstream religion having a bad side as well as a good one).

    If you want me to develop the point, what I am saying is this: no matter how credible the individual seems, if they report that an object moved by itself or a person appeared and disappearing, there are many KNOWN explanations we can reach for before we toy with an unknown one.

    I am scientist. I would love us to discover a new complexity to the universe. And as you say, in many ways we know nothing. But anything we discover must be measured and codified to prove that it is something new. Otherwise, we might as well go back to pagan gods.

    Ghosts, in the sense of the dead speaking to the living, must also answer the same logic challenge as UFOs. Why do so cryptically and not in the open in front of everyone? If my grandparents could speak to me from beyond the veil, I am confident they would do just that. Politely knock on the door and come in for a chat.

    If they are meant to be a sort of “psychic imprint” then why aren’t they everywhere?
    Suppose there are realities that cannot be measured and codified. Take this proposition: "On planet earth torturing children for fun is always wrong". Now I think that is true, not because I think it and not because lots of people think it but because its a truth arising from the moral fabric of the universe. I accept I may be wrong. But I don't accept that it stops being true if lots of people stop thinking it or f I stop thinking it. I think it is objectively true. Which would make it as much part of total reality - what makes up the universe - as quarks and oak trees and the law of gravity.

    That is exactly what I think, and it requires no extant divinity to think it, as Kant helpfully but not very simply pointed out in about 1790.
    So you'll still think it's true even if you stop thinking it's true?
    That's imprecise but on the right lines. If the proposition I mentioned is true regardless of any personal opinion anyone might hold (which entails moral objectivity being true, a view held by many interesting people, for example Kant, Aristotle and Iris Murdoch) then I think it is the case that it is is true even in circumstances where I think it is false (as in me being an amoral teenager, a believer in the ethics of David Hume, when drunk, when suffering a psychotic episode, when I am the Southport killer etc). Hope that's clear.

    Ie, I propose that 'Torturing children for fun is always wrong' is true, even even in contexts where everyone thinks it's false. It isn't mind dependent.
    For all the obvious objections I have some sympathy with your thrust. It's a bit like (although not exactly like) the idea there are certain rights people have which exist (or should exist) over and above democratic politics. Meaning people should not be able to vote them away even if a majority want to. That's something I believe and it isn't a million miles away from what you're driving at.
    The denial of ethical objectivism is filled with greater objections, to my mind insurmountable. Like the great ethicist Elizabeth Anscombe I just don't want to be in the same room as people who think that it is only an opinion that there is something wrong about the holocaust (or the Southport murders, or torturing children) and that other opinions have equal weight because there is no measure except our mutable
    sentiments. That's David Hume's view when he says, incorrectly,

    it is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger
    We are, unfortunately, in the same room as people who think ethnic cleansing is OK (whether our room is PB or our room is the West). How do we react to that?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,895

    ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    That didn't take long
    I'm sure six posts isn't a record, but it must be close.

    Where's Norris McWhirter when we need him?
    Sad to see what Guinness World Records has become now. Its all pay for play now.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,604

    Plymouth 1 - Liverpool 0

    After 90 mins

    9 mins of injury time to play

    I’m sure they will play on until Lolverpool score.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    algarkirk said:

    ColinR said:

    It’s very confusing as to what, exactly, Musk and others are actually doing. The argument right now is about access to data and systems, but the counter argument I suppose is that they are authorised under presidential fiat.

    Separately, one could argue that the shuttering of U.S. Aid and other entities like the Department of Education was promised by Trump on the campaign trail.

    It’s all a bit messy and abstract to the average voter right now.

    The judges are now trying to stop him with court orders. Still a mob with baseball bats turning up at the judges houses may concentrate their minds.
    The other complication, of course, is that judiciary *is* politicised, by design.

    So it’s v easy actually to write off the legal system as partisan.

    America is going Peronist, or Orbanist, or Erdoganist.
    I agree with poster earlier who suggested that of course elections will continue, just they will be engineered in favor of the Trump regime and dynasty.
    Rigging elections is probably easier than rigging the entire judicial process. Pliant courts and court orders met and opposed by government force are open to the face of the world.
    Rigging the media is easier still and the approach taken by Orban, Erdogan etc. Trump is trying to do the same.
  • Plymouth 1 - Liverpool 0

    Full time

    Wow
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431

    ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    That didn't take long
    Quite right.
    Surely the plural of hydra is hydrae.
    I think the plural of Hydra is Hydras, because it is a name. If you have two people in the room called Julius you don't say there are two Julii, you say there are two Juliuses. If two named Alexandra you say two Alexandras, not two Alexandrae. But if you have two plants known as a cactus you have two cacti. Language is odd.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    And Brexit, which fatally weakened their support in southern shires. All roads lead to one Boris Johnson.

    Yet, I expect to see him back before the next election.
    No, it has nothing to do with Brexit.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,911
    edited February 9
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Does anyone else watch/listen to the “podcast” Uncanny?

    The case of Hollymount Farm is one of the clearest examples of a haunting I’ve encountered. Still might be total bull, of course

    Excellent series. The first is on iPlayer as well. You may think it's bunkum, but it's very entertaining.
    Yeah it’s great. A lot of the stories are quite easily explicable (but still entertaining). A few stand out as Whoah

    The Battersea Poltergeist was one. Also that terrifying Scottish bothy. And now Hollymount Farm. Brrrr

    Danny Robbins is a very gifted presenter - likeable and plausible. Never sensational
    Bothies can be deeply unsettling if you're by yourself, no signal and more than a day's walk away from civilisation.
    It’s all nonsense. Good fun but nonsense.

    The guy who presents Uncanny is fairly decent (although seeing him on tv makes me think of D:Ream); however for me to even vaguely consider the possibility of a ghost it would have to appear in front on me, in broad daylight, and consent to a range of tests in lab conditions. And even then my reaction would be “that’s a bloody good illusion”.

    The story always involves someone in a dark, unsettling location, under psychological pressure and/or in search of an easy answer to explain a more profound trauma.

    To summarise: I ain’t afraid of no ghost.
    For me this is as ludicrously over-confident as someone who insists that QAnon is real

    How can you know? How many people screen out jarring or bizarre visual evidence simply because it makes no sense? To their world view?

    Check the gorilla on the basketball court - a famous experiment

    Or think back to how many people dismissed the idea of a global Covid pandemic until the last moment - because it had never happened before and therefore could never happen
    Read the actual words. I am applying sensible scepticism which used to be mainstream until the West started going weird (insert essay here about the death of mainstream religion having a bad side as well as a good one).

    If you want me to develop the point, what I am saying is this: no matter how credible the individual seems, if they report that an object moved by itself or a person appeared and disappearing, there are many KNOWN explanations we can reach for before we toy with an unknown one.

    I am scientist. I would love us to discover a new complexity to the universe. And as you say, in many ways we know nothing. But anything we discover must be measured and codified to prove that it is something new. Otherwise, we might as well go back to pagan gods.

    Ghosts, in the sense of the dead speaking to the living, must also answer the same logic challenge as UFOs. Why do so cryptically and not in the open in front of everyone? If my grandparents could speak to me from beyond the veil, I am confident they would do just that. Politely knock on the door and come in for a chat.

    If they are meant to be a sort of “psychic imprint” then why aren’t they everywhere?
    Suppose there are realities that cannot be measured and codified. Take this proposition: "On planet earth torturing children for fun is always wrong". Now I think that is true, not because I think it and not because lots of people think it but because its a truth arising from the moral fabric of the universe. I accept I may be wrong. But I don't accept that it stops being true if lots of people stop thinking it or f I stop thinking it. I think it is objectively true. Which would make it as much part of total reality - what makes up the universe - as quarks and oak trees and the law of gravity.

    That is exactly what I think, and it requires no extant divinity to think it, as Kant helpfully but not very simply pointed out in about 1790.
    So you'll still think it's true even if you stop thinking it's true?
    That's imprecise but on the right lines. If the proposition I mentioned is true regardless of any personal opinion anyone might hold (which entails moral objectivity being true, a view held by many interesting people, for example Kant, Aristotle and Iris Murdoch) then I think it is the case that it is is true even in circumstances where I think it is false (as in me being an amoral teenager, a believer in the ethics of David Hume, when drunk, when suffering a psychotic episode, when I am the Southport killer etc). Hope that's clear.

    Ie, I propose that 'Torturing children for fun is always wrong' is true, even even in contexts where everyone thinks it's false. It isn't mind dependent.
    For all the obvious objections I have some sympathy with your thrust. It's a bit like (although not exactly like) the idea there are certain rights people have which exist (or should exist) over and above democratic politics. Meaning people should not be able to vote them away even if a majority want to. That's something I believe and it isn't a million miles away from what you're driving at.
    The denial of ethical objectivism is filled with greater objections, to my mind insurmountable. Like the great ethicist Elizabeth Anscombe I just don't want to be in the same room as people who think that it is only an opinion that there is something wrong about the holocaust (or the Southport murders, or torturing children) and that other opinions have equal weight because there is no measure except our mutable
    sentiments. That's David Hume's view when he says, incorrectly,

    it is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger
    I don't mind it at all. It's a nice idea and I'd guess that people who agree with it tend to be good people. But you do need to be able to call the point where an opinion slides into the realm of objective truth. This is tricky given outside science it's an exercise in judgement and judgement is by definition subjective.

    Example. That Donald Trump is US president is wrong. This for me is NOT an opinion. It's not open to some "debate". It's a statement of truth and it's no less true for the fact that he won the election on Nov 5th. That he's POTUS is wrong. Voting for him was wrong.

    So there you go, I'm an ethical absolutist on Donald Trump. But what about people who aren't?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941

    ColinR said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    Indeed. Fully deserved too. Thr future is in parties much further right unapolegetic about stopping immigration.
    Although, I should say, I question whether they'd be any more effective in stopping it.

    To do so would require a mixture of domestic legal reform and international cooperation, plus executive competence and ruthlessness with passive resistance in the public services.

    I doubt Reform could package all that.
    A Labour policy -

    Withdraw the effective right of companies to issue work visas. Work visas only come from the Home Office.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,861
    ColinR said:

    ColinR said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    Indeed. Fully deserved too. Thr future is in parties much further right unapolegetic about stopping immigration.
    Although, I should say, I question whether they'd be any more effective in stopping it.

    To do so would require a mixture of domestic legal reform and international cooperation, plus executive competence and ruthlessness with passive resistance in the public services.

    I doubt Reform could package all that.
    I agree. Likely not ruthless enough. We need a britain Trump. Perhaps Tommy Robinson.
    Ah, you're one of those.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    edited February 9

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    This is becoming a genuine mass movement

    Britain has Had Enough
    Meaningless unless they can get them out campaigning. Compare LD membership to Tory membership (particularly in the past when the Tories had mass membership) and then look at campaigning ability. Having said that Reform have said they want to copy LD campaigning and their literature has been good, but can they get these people active. I suspect most won't be.
    More members means more money, and a wider pool to choose candidates from.

    I don’t doubt that in the right constituency, in by election conditions, the Lib Dem’s would out-campaign them.

    But across a couple of hundred constituencies, and with their social media presence, Reform would probably do better.
    Yes, the Lib Dems campaigning ability is almost legendary but it's exaggerated.

    They are very good at hypertargetting a handful of seats over a period of time or in by-elections.

    But they are not a national movement.
    Nor are the Tories, anymore, it seems.
    The Tories are facing extinction.

    I think their failure to control migration during the last parliament might be terminal for them.
    And Brexit, which fatally weakened their support in southern shires. All roads lead to one Boris Johnson.

    Yet, I expect to see him back before the next election.
    No, it has nothing to do with Brexit.
    The collapse of the Tories and the rise of Farage’s Reform, has nothing to do with Brexit?

    This is Comical Ali level analysis.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Have they explained how they are going to fund all of their policies yet?
    Has Sir Wonga.com explained how he found £18bn down the back of the sofa to jizz at Mauritius when he said we had a £22bn black hole in the public finances yet?
    With all due respect, that is incredibly immature.

    I asked a reasonable question about Reform's policy platform. The current government has nothing to do with that question.
    I think it's a fair point.

    Reform would argue that their manifesto was costed - that the dynamic effects of their tax cuts would have stimulated economic activity, offsetting the 'cost' to the treasury. Critics of their policies were arguing that they had not explained how they would 'pay' for their reversal of the Tories' CT rise. But we know that Ireland rakes in far more CT than we do on far lower rates. So perhaps it's Labour who should explain how it intends to pay for its higher rate of CT in the longer term?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732

    https://www.wired.com/story/kash-patel-elite-depot-shein/

    Trump's FBI pick, Kash Patel, won't divest himself of shares in Chinese company that represent a conflict of interest.

    Why does it represent a conflict of interest per se?
    “Hi, boss. Should we continue this investigation into Shein?”
    *Then* it would be a conflict.

    But how often does the FBI investigate companies rather than individuals?

    https://x.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1888
    256986237526142
    Fair point on corporate espionage

    The usual way to do this is to have a blind trust. It’s not reasonable to expect a public servant not to invest. Alternatively he recused himself from anything that touches Shein
    He’s refused to have a blind trust.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,683
    Quadruple my arse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999

    https://x.com/iapolls2022/status/1888590821953302593

    CBS Poll: President Trump Approval

    🟢 Approve: 53% (+6)
    🔴 Disapprove: 47%

    The highest approval rating for President Trump in CBS polling history
    ——
    • Ages 18-29: 55-45 (+10)
    • Ages 30-44: 52-48 (+4)
    • Ages 45-64: 56-44 (+12)
    • Ages 65+: 50-50 (=)

    A lesson and an opportunity for Starmer to improve his poor approval rating. Just declare war on all our closest allies.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    algarkirk said:

    ColinR said:

    Maybe Andrew Tate and Tommy Robinson will be the dreamtickets. Attacking the twin hydras of mass immigration and feminism simultaneously.

    That didn't take long
    Quite right.
    Surely the plural of hydra is hydrae.
    I think the plural of Hydra is Hydras, because it is a name. If you have two people in the room called Julius you don't say there are two Julii, you say there are two Juliuses. If two named Alexandra you say two Alexandras, not two Alexandrae. But if you have two plants known as a cactus you have two cacti. Language is odd.
    A hydra is also the name of an animal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_(genus)
  • Plymouth 1 - Liverpool 0

    Full time

    Wow

    Great result. Love to see Liverpool lose. Well done Plymouth.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,641
    edited February 9
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RefUK = 200,000 members.

    https://www.reformparty.uk/counter

    200,231.

    Just rejoice at that news.
    Corbyn Labour had 564,443 members.

    Got walloped.
    That was because the 564,443 comprised the entire population if Islington and Hackney. I would expect Ref's membership is slightly more dispersed around the country, albeit heavily concentrated in places like Grimsby and Skegness.
This discussion has been closed.