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The Trump legacy, the UK chooses Europe over the open sea? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,066
    Maybe just date things Ab Urbe Condita.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117
    Today's econ lesson.

    MAGA finding out that tariffs are not, in fact, payed by China, as they were promised.
    https://x.com/notcapnamerica/status/1888024598391967806
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,220
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,700
    Nigelb said:

    geoffw said:

    The AI models are not intelligent at all. Try getting one to create a simple crossword or even a sujiko puzzle

    Creative intelligence isn't the point.
    But they can do the work of millions, if directed.

    Most people can't compose a crossword. You could probably train an AI to do so without massive effort.

    Musk probably has an AI writing his social media posts. Some selection of the output would be required, but it would explain his 300 tweets per day.
    Doing that for Trump would be even easier, given his tiny vocabulary and copious public archive of bullshit.

    Nah, I know AI can thrash chess grandmasters with ease and spot cancer years before doctors but I struggle to believe that they could come up with the windmill/birds or sharks/electric batteries stories for at least another few decades.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,468
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    DavidL said:

    Barnesian said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    A bit like "he/him"?
    Can anyone help with this? One of my witnesses in a forthcoming case wishes to be known as they/them. When I am talking to a third party, like another witness, I can refer to them as they. What do I do when I am speaking to them? Presumably they are still a "you"?
    They is still a "you", yes.
  • MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    'Matt sucks dogs' was another one apparently.
    Not sure who Matt is or the breed of dogs involved.
    Matt is a legendary cartoonist.

    Not sure about the dogs element.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,198

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,354

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    Are you boycotting lamingtons over Ayers Rock to Uluru?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    I fwiiw, believe Gwynne's commentary is unacceptable and unprofessional and he should have gone. In an earlier, less febrile time I am sure he could have passed it off as "satire".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117
    edited February 9

    Nigelb said:

    geoffw said:

    The AI models are not intelligent at all. Try getting one to create a simple crossword or even a sujiko puzzle

    Creative intelligence isn't the point.
    But they can do the work of millions, if directed.

    Most people can't compose a crossword. You could probably train an AI to do so without massive effort.

    Musk probably has an AI writing his social media posts. Some selection of the output would be required, but it would explain his 300 tweets per day.
    Doing that for Trump would be even easier, given his tiny vocabulary and copious public archive of bullshit.

    Nah, I know AI can thrash chess grandmasters with ease and spot cancer years before doctors but I struggle to believe that they could come up with the windmill/birds or sharks/electric batteries stories for at least another few decades.
    You clearly have clearly forgotten how often he repeats his daft shtick.
    AI (currently) is a tool, not a replacement - but you can probably automate 90%.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    Ann Winterton’s remark was simply crass and tasteless.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    edited February 9

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,648
    MattW said:

    As in eg Uganda under Amin, the independent judiciary, and independent institutions such as churches, will be the last bulwarks of a free society that can continue to exist.

    You haven't seen the Whitehouse Faith Advisor then

    "Any offence against Trump is an offence against God..."
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    Cyclefree said:

    I am in a cafe next to the Royal Free after my second bout of treatment. I am shivering with cold on account, I assume, of the hideous weather.

    An American at the table next to me has ordered a cappuccino with chocolate on top. At 11 am.

    Is there to be no end to my suffering??

    I thought it was allowed until around 11.
    Breakfast or brunch, even if the latter is a modern invention.

    Personally I drink cortados.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117
    .
    theProle said:

    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Hah, ha, ha...


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2h
    SUNDAY EXPRESS: Tories call for Reform pact to save UK #TomorrowsPapersToday

    The only surprise would be that it took this long for more people to start saying it.

    You can see from the front page of Reform's website that they really do want to be friends.

    Yet not one poll, even FindOutNow, is forecasting a Reform majority even as most polls forecast a hung parliament. So the political reality for Farage is without a deal with the Tories he has near zero chance of becoming PM or getting into government
    The Conservatives would be mad to attempt a pact with Reform, even if the latter were interested in such a thing. Farage, despite the fact that recent approval ratings flatter him when compared to a struggling Prime Minister and an invisible Opposition leader, is not particularly popular amongst the electorate as a whole; being the Not Farage Party is really the only attribute that the Tories have left to sell to their remaining voters.

    The idea that Con+Ref = 50% and a deal is therefore all that is needed to win them an election handsomely is for the birds. I'm not sure how many Reform voters would desert if they thought their preferred party were morphing back into Tories, but a large chunk of what's left of the Conservative vote would sit on its hands or go Liberal Democrat.
    I'm not sure you're right here. If the Tory Party actually said "stick a fork in us, we're done" and wound themselves up, where would their remaining voters go? Surely by now, the only ones left must either be intensely tribal, or so disinterested in politics to have not noticed that the Tory Party has decended into a bad cartoon of itself.

    I'm not sure I'd want to predict where those voters end up going.

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Somebody stubs their toe in the US and we get rolling news coverage. Meanwhile major events across Europe are shoehorned in between a story about cats and the weather forecast.

    Presumably if the Americans spoke French or German they'd be ignored too.

    +1
    Sky News were all over Trump's press conference with pm of Japan. They called it breaking news FFS. What on earth had that to do with us?
    I've started to fast forward Trump coverage. It's bloated and pandering. Anything important, I'll read a summary later on.
    He and his team have clearly given thought as to the performative shock and awe stuff they always intended to drop in the weeks after his election win.

    It's still not obvious whether they have a coherent legislative programme for the next two to four years?
    I see they've now torn up the 'support for EV;s' programme (or possibly program!).

    How's that going down with Musk?
    They also cancelled rural broadband (which on technical - but not social policy - grounds, is rather more justifiable.
    Pretty good for Starlink.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,528
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Barnesian said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    A bit like "he/him"?
    Can anyone help with this? One of my witnesses in a forthcoming case wishes to be known as they/them. When I am talking to a third party, like another witness, I can refer to them as they. What do I do when I am speaking to them? Presumably they are still a "you"?
    Entirely uninterested and unperturbed by the pronouns thing, but isn't it just shorthand for avoidance of gender specific forms of address? Is it even possible to address someone in the first person with gender defined without adding titles?

    If the trial in Glasgow of course 'youse' must be used at all times, eg 'Where were youse on the night of the 25th' etc.
    Obvs if the pannel is a Dr or Professor DavidL has it sewn up.
    Well, unless they have head and shoulders in their overnight bag, that might really throw me, apparently.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,198

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    Are you boycotting lamingtons over Ayers Rock to Uluru?
    Nope, for the cunning reason I have no idea what lamingtons is.

    Also, I'm not boycotting Civ VII as I was planning on, at most, waiting for a deep sale and probably not buying it at all.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,198
    Driver said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
    That's an interesting comparison.

    I found the Turkey change pretty odd as it seemed totally unnecessary. There's also a question about dictating what someone else calls something (the Germans don't insist on Deutschland, for example).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117

    Cyclefree said:

    I am in a cafe next to the Royal Free after my second bout of treatment. I am shivering with cold on account, I assume, of the hideous weather.

    An American at the table next to me has ordered a cappuccino with chocolate on top. At 11 am.

    Is there to be no end to my suffering??

    I thought it was allowed until around 11.
    Breakfast or brunch, even if the latter is a modern invention.

    Personally I drink cortados.
    It's the chocolate.
    I've occasionally clashed with Cyclefree over this (de gustibus, etc), but in her weakened state, it must be very trying. I sympathise, and wish her a quick recovery.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999
    Driver said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
    It will get confusing when future changes are made. Mount Trumpmore, Trump DC, New Trump, Los Trump, Las Trump, San Trump. DJT Airport.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,491

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    I fwiiw, believe Gwynne's commentary is unacceptable and unprofessional and he should have gone. In an earlier, less febrile time I am sure he could have passed it off as "satire".
    Far from condemning Gwynne, his transparency should be applauded. Politicians should be obliged to tweet at least 100 times a day so we'd know what really lies behind the 360° smirk. QEI complained she couldn't see into men's souls. We've solved that problem.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117

    Driver said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
    It will get confusing when future changes are made. Mount Trumpmore, Trump DC, New Trump, Los Trump, Las Trump, San Trump. DJT Airport.
    The Trump Plaza in Gaza.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    Driver said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
    The USA doesn’t own the Gulf of Mexico though.
    Try looking at an Atlas.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,198
    Anyway, with the news that Trump wants to rename the calendar to Trump Era I am off.

    Have a good day, everyone.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,502
    Cyclefree said:

    I am in a cafe next to the Royal Free after my second bout of treatment. I am shivering with cold on account, I assume, of the hideous weather.

    An American at the table next to me has ordered a cappuccino with chocolate on top. At 11 am.

    Is there to be no end to my suffering??

    He or she presumably got the order in a tad before 11am, in which case it's surely just about forgiveable?
  • MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,538
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793

    This weeks Polls show SKS enabled Reform at unprecedented GE VI levels

    Pinocchio fans please explain


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Straws being clutched at in the header. Oh dear how sad never mind.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    Looks like, once again, people have forgotten the basic rule of shock humour -

    The consequences, if it falls flat, are integral.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,999

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    That sounds very unlike Starmer. Surely a decision was made only after a lengthy inquiry.

    Starmer fans please explain.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    I tend to agree with @Gardenwalker - I didn't find anything toooo shocking in the comments. Not very nice to hear for those who were the butt of the jokes, but nothing a harrassed telephonist might not say after a going over from an unhappy customer. Labour Ministers have done waaay worse and not resigned - Andrew Gwynne's nasty barbs are less than nothing compared to Hermer's unacceptable conflicts of interest.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,528
    People understandably have a lot of criticisms of Trump but on the plus side I really think we should look on his undertaking not to extradite Prince Harry as a generous and sympathetic gesture.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,117
    Assuming the US still has elections in 2026 and 2028, this article is well worth a read.

    America’s Demographic Revolution
    https://split-ticket.org/2025/02/08/americas-demographic-revolution/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,066

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    I honestly found @Leon’s piece about visiting Dachau very funny, but you’d certainly be sacked as a minister if you posted something like that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    edited February 9

    Anyway, with the news that Trump wants to rename the calendar to Trump Era I am off.

    Have a good day, everyone.

    Trump Era 3, Shirley?

    Or is Trump denying the Steal?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559

    Driver said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
    The USA doesn’t own the Gulf of Mexico though.
    Try looking at an Atlas.
    I could have made the same point about Denali/Mount McKinley, if you feel that a better analogy?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name. It's only a badge change, after all.
    If there's no problem with Erdogan changing Turkey to Turkiye, there should be no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

    Especially as the USA is actually a (kind of) English speaking country.
    The USA doesn’t own the Gulf of Mexico though.
    Try looking at an Atlas.
    I could have made the same point about Denali/Mount McKinley, if you feel that a better analogy?
    Sure. That works.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,434
    Senator John Kennedy (the junior United States senator from Louisiana) has objections to the Chagos Islands deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FKJ1zyRSY
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,220
    Cyclefree said:

    I am in a cafe next to the Royal Free after my second bout of treatment. I am shivering with cold on account, I assume, of the hideous weather.

    An American at the table next to me has ordered a cappuccino with chocolate on top. At 11 am.

    Is there to be no end to my suffering??

    I was diagnosed with Type I diabetes after an ambulance trip to the Royal Free back in 2001 for hyperglaecemia bought on after a stomach bug killed my pancreas, when I was living on Mansfield Road, in the studio flat attic of a landlord who's day job was maintaining CeeFax.

    One of the nice things about that hospital is the proliferation of cafes in the area, and a decent avoidance of Hampstead prices if one goes the other way.

    If you are an NT member, it's also worth a visit to the modernist Willow Road by Goldfinger, pop around teh corner to look at 49a Downshire Hill (Anthony Hopkins), and take in the Lawn Road (Isokon) flats which are on the way to the Belsize Park tube and look like a 1930s ocean linuer - next to (of all things) a tennis club.

    (Given you, you have probably done his already :smile: .)
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    Marina Hyde in the Guardian mentioned the left’s commoditisation of opinion. In other words, correct thinking liberals have to adopt, however contradictory, the whole package of “correct” views off the shelf but, in reality, a substantial part of society that fully support gay rights also support the death penalty - which are not found together in the left-liberal package.

    I think that’s true more broadly. Disliking Trump and regretting Brexit may not, paradoxically, necessarily be a bar to supporting Farage.

    That's the two party / FPTP commoditisation of opinion. The RINO rhetoric is an example of the same thing.

    A PR system is slightly more likely to avoid such nonsense. If you're not MAGA, or 'uber-liberal' (whatever that might mean), you have other options to make your electoral voice heard.
    It also favours a bit more honesty (just a bit, I'm not going to push it) from politicians, as they can ditch any pretence of being interested in everyone's welfare and adopt a special interest platform if they want to. The Conservatives, for example, would be free to rebrand as the Grey Party and campaign for the abolition of inheritance tax and annual 20% hikes to the state pension paid for by selling the poor into slavery, and would probably do rather well.

    Frankly, any prolonged period of 4/5/6 major party politics is going to test FPTP to destruction. A majority of parties that can agree an alternative only has to be spat out of the random number generator once to pull it down. It's perfectly possible to imagine a scenario where the Tories implode, Davey mops up wealthy Southern England, Labour fails and is driven back into the cities, and suddenly LD + Ref + SNP = Maj in 2029. If Reform are actually serious about, well, reform then they could prop up a Lib Dem minority for exactly as long as it takes to ram PR through Parliament, followed by another election.

    With a weak, floundering Government and a weak, floundering Opposition co-existing, the foundations of the current duopoly have never been shakier.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,538

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
    Do-gooding pests are the reason anything ever improves.

    Perhaps part of the reason the UK has become a bit of a shithole is because politicians treat anyone who actually cares about something as irritating weirdos. A cultural lethargy and complacency; we'd much rather wallow in our own mediocricity and decline.

    #iagreewithnick
  • MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
    I assume you do not know all the comments Gwynne made not least in regard to his colleagues Dianne Abbott and Angela Rayner [which I am not repeating ] plus his antisemitic remarks about Jews.

    The problem is that Gwynne's remarks as I understand it span a two year period and involve at least another Labour mp and Labour councillors no doubt all of whom did not expect them to be leaked to the Daily Mail at which point they become public knowledge, and certainly in Gwynne's case are seen as unacceptable but also the consequences for Labour as demonstrated by Trevor Philips this morning is who is the other Labour mp and why wasn't he/she been sacked as well

    It remains to be seen whether sacking Gwynne has ended the story
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
    I assume you do not know all the comments Gwynne made not least in regard to his colleagues Dianne Abbott and Angela Rayner [which I am not repeating ] plus his antisemitic remarks about Jews.

    The problem is that Gwynne's remarks as I understand it span a two year period and involve at least another Labour mp and Labour councillors no doubt all of whom did not expect them to be leaked to the Daily Mail at which point they become public knowledge, and certainly in Gwynne's case are seen as unacceptable but also the consequences for Labour as demonstrated by Trevor Philips this morning is who is the other Labour mp and why wasn't he/she been sacked as well

    It remains to be seen whether sacking Gwynne has ended the story
    It’s a non-story. Trivia.
    There are no consequences for Labour, as much as you might devoutly wish it.

    The actual issue for Labour is that the economy is in the doldrums, and Starmer is already a busted flush.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,940

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
    I assume you do not know all the comments Gwynne made not least in regard to his colleagues Dianne Abbott and Angela Rayner [which I am not repeating ] plus his antisemitic remarks about Jews.

    The problem is that Gwynne's remarks as I understand it span a two year period and involve at least another Labour mp and Labour councillors no doubt all of whom did not expect them to be leaked to the Daily Mail at which point they become public knowledge, and certainly in Gwynne's case are seen as unacceptable but also the consequences for Labour as demonstrated by Trevor Philips this morning is who is the other Labour mp and why wasn't he/she been sacked as well

    It remains to be seen whether sacking Gwynne has ended the story
    A shiny sixpence says that worse remarks have been made by someone in the Mail's editorial offices in the last 24 hours. Because that's what high-pressure workplaces are like.

    In reality, Gwynne has been sacked for being stupid, and for making his party look bad, not for the inherent awfulness of his thoughts.

    Remember kids- if it's on the internet, it's potentially there forever.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,607

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    Ann Winterton’s remark was simply crass and tasteless.
    So are these comments. At best.

    But that's the point: if "you can never say anything crass, tasteless or blunt, even in joking form" is applied to politicians of one party, the same standards should be applied to politicians of every party.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    Ann Winterton’s remark was simply crass and tasteless.
    So are these comments. At best.

    But that's the point: if "you can never say anything crass, tasteless or blunt, even in joking form" is applied to politicians of one party, the same standards should be applied to politicians of every party.
    21 Chinese cocklepickers were drowned in Morecambe, in February 2004, and Ann Winterton was cracking jokes about it the SAME MONTH.

    So no I don’t think there’s an equivalence.

    As usual, @stuartinromford has the best take.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,955

    https://www.wired.com/story/kash-patel-elite-depot-shein/

    Trump's FBI pick, Kash Patel, won't divest himself of shares in Chinese company that represent a conflict of interest.

    Why does it represent a conflict of interest per se?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,468
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    Ann Winterton’s remark was simply crass and tasteless.
    So are these comments. At best.

    But that's the point: if "you can never say anything crass, tasteless or blunt, even in joking form" is applied to politicians of one party, the same standards should be applied to politicians of every party.
    Gwynne problem is the extent of his comments over 2 years and the fact they have now been put in the public domain

    The Jewish Labour movement have issued a statement saying they are appalled at the vile anti semetic rascist comments made by Andrew Gwynne

    The media certainly are very much leading on this story
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    Ann Winterton’s remark was simply crass and tasteless.
    So are these comments. At best.

    But that's the point: if "you can never say anything crass, tasteless or blunt, even in joking form" is applied to politicians of one party, the same standards should be applied to politicians of every party.
    In every case that politicians have got it in the neck for crass, tasteless or blunt jokes, the jokes weren’t funny.

    If you are going to go Full Lenny Bruce, remember that shock humour comes with integral consequences for failing to be funny.

    The Concentration Camp Watchtower joke is funny.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
    I assume you do not know all the comments Gwynne made not least in regard to his colleagues Dianne Abbott and Angela Rayner [which I am not repeating ] plus his antisemitic remarks about Jews.

    The problem is that Gwynne's remarks as I understand it span a two year period and involve at least another Labour mp and Labour councillors no doubt all of whom did not expect them to be leaked to the Daily Mail at which point they become public knowledge, and certainly in Gwynne's case are seen as unacceptable but also the consequences for Labour as demonstrated by Trevor Philips this morning is who is the other Labour mp and why wasn't he/she been sacked as well

    It remains to be seen whether sacking Gwynne has ended the story
    A shiny sixpence says that worse remarks have been made by someone in the Mail's editorial offices in the last 24 hours. Because that's what high-pressure workplaces are like.

    In reality, Gwynne has been sacked for being stupid, and for making his party look bad, not for the inherent awfulness of his thoughts.

    Remember kids- if it's on the internet, it's potentially there forever.
    The *written* word will follow you to the grave.

    Oh, and email is less secure than sending a postcard.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    I wouldn't say riled (not least because I'm too sleepy for that). But it's daft removing Christ from the Christian calendar. Bastardising history/the calendar for political reasons is not something I like.

    Mind you, Civ does get some things wrong. Having Victoria as Queen of England (nope, Britain), or Saladin as an Arabic leader (he was a Kurd) springs to mind.
    How is using a more neutral term “Bastardising history”? Do you object to the use of the Gregorian calendar too?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    Cyclefree said:

    I am in a cafe next to the Royal Free after my second bout of treatment. I am shivering with cold on account, I assume, of the hideous weather.

    An American at the table next to me has ordered a cappuccino with chocolate on top. At 11 am.

    Is there to be no end to my suffering??

    Here, https://thenookhampstead.co.uk/ , does a fantastic hot chocolate and other things. Must be less than 100m from where you are.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732

    https://www.wired.com/story/kash-patel-elite-depot-shein/

    Trump's FBI pick, Kash Patel, won't divest himself of shares in Chinese company that represent a conflict of interest.

    Why does it represent a conflict of interest per se?
    “Hi, boss. Should we continue this investigation into Shein?”
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 721
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    "mere words" for goodness sake. What about the teenagers who have killed themselves after being bullied on social media.?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,607

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Attempts at 'humour' can be very dangerous in politics. A Tory minister once made a dark 'joke' about the cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. It was during a private dinner party, and it still lot her her job.
    Ann Winterton’s remark was simply crass and tasteless.
    So are these comments. At best.

    But that's the point: if "you can never say anything crass, tasteless or blunt, even in joking form" is applied to politicians of one party, the same standards should be applied to politicians of every party.
    21 Chinese cocklepickers were drowned in Morecambe, in February 2004, and Ann Winterton was cracking jokes about it the SAME MONTH.

    So no I don’t think there’s an equivalence.

    As usual, @stuartinromford has the best take.
    I am not defending Winterton over this. I am saying that if you really think her comments were wrong, then Gwynne's comments are also wrong. And there are compounding factors in Gwynne's; such as the scale, length of time they were over, and the forum.

    It's topics like this that make some people appear like silly party hacks.
  • MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    Unfortunately that is not it

    There is much more

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/08/health-minister-andrew-gwynne-sacked-over-whatsapp-comments?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
    There’s really nothing in there that’s actually offensive or outrageous.

    Albeit, it’s probably simply stupid to post such things as an MP.
    Are you serious ?

    Starmer has not instantly sacked him and condemned his remarks if he took your view

    I never thought you would be an apologist for someone who makes rascist, antisemitic and wishing death on a pensioner remarks
    The remarks are really only horrific, racist and antisemitism if you are a professional offense-monger.

    I accept, however, that the UK is full of snowflakes and communicating such remarks is no longer compatible with being in the Ministry.
    The problem is that Labour have spent the last decade being that professional offense-monger. Reduces any sympathy I might have had for him. I know that he would definitely be on the airways demanding the head of any Conservative MP who wrote something similar. Always came across as deeply unpleasant. Starmer is probably relieved he's gone, like with Haigh, he can bring in one of his own replacements.

    I would be more interested in knowing if he actually did sort out the issue over bin collections.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,220

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    No. TBH I think you are trivialising.

    It's culture war stuff, and I'm surprised to hear it from any Labour MP - even that one. We've seen how the Welsh Tories first demanded that 20mph limits be done more quickly, then turned their coats and tried to create a wedge issue to save themselves at the 2024 Election.

    Enough of this chatter, and it becomes perceived as acceptable in some groups to lean out of a car and push people over, or string cables across cycle tracks. Both of these are rare, but not unknown at present. It creates what is known as a "permission structure". Members of the House of Lords (eg Hogan Howe) referring the Lords to (eg) people on cycles who he thinks are in his way as "a plague of mosquitoes" can work in a similar way, especially when combined with fictional claims.

    There was another one last week down in Bournemouth in a Facebook Group called BCP and Dorset Motorists, which I track as I did much professional training down there - to keep an eye out and to do a bit of education. There was a Lib Dem Councillor gathering evidence of dangerous behaviour at primary school drop-off time by parents with their vehicles on the zig-zag markings.

    He did some filming and published a video with extensive blurring (for obvious reasons).

    The attempt within the group was to make him out to be a paedophile filming kids and turning it into a safeguarding issue, and it made the local paper. That's the Rebecca Brooks tabloid playbook from the 1990s. The attempt is to demonise a "cyclist", rather than address the safety concern for children wanting to walk, wheel or cycle to school.

    Here's his video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIHtq1r02Zs
    And here's the newspaper article:
    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/24907934.cllr-adrian-chapmanlaw-regrets-alarm-filming-outside-school/

    What do you think? I think the "alarm" is pure politics.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,338
    edited February 9
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,607

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    "The activist in person is probably a pest."

    You do realise how stupid that makes you sound?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,220
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    For the DOGE kid, I'm more concerned about his being granted access to classified information (UK equivalent would perhaps be the entire HMRC or DVLA database), and the Trump/Musk regime's belief that it is OK to do this with no security clearance in basic violation of the law.

    But those are simply the values of the regime.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,793
    Cyclefree said:

    I am in a cafe next to the Royal Free after my second bout of treatment. I am shivering with cold on account, I assume, of the hideous weather.

    An American at the table next to me has ordered a cappuccino with chocolate on top. At 11 am.

    Is there to be no end to my suffering??

    Very sorry to hear of your challenges. Wishing you an amazingly swift recovery.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Hmm. I'm kind of minded to agree with that... but this went on for over two years, I understand, which would seem to be plenty of time to learn how to behave,
  • Cyclefree said:

    It's not the cappuccino at 11. It's the chocolate. Which is just ridiculous. At any time. Honestly, the English turn every drink - other than tea - into a version of Ovaltine, which is just disgusting.

    Also he was having pancakes with berries and scrambled eggs with ketchup. I mean, really .......

    Anyway, am at home, in bed and feel bloody awful. Just utterly drained and sick, in the physical rather than the metaphysical sense. Time for a good long sleep.

    I am so sorry you are experiencing health issues but the best advice is to be kind to yourself and listen to your body

    Sleep is a great healer
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    SandraMc said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    "mere words" for goodness sake. What about the teenagers who have killed themselves after being bullied on social media.?
    Bullying is different

    Is there evidence this Labour MP was part of a group persecuting one individual? If so that’s a step up and worthy of much greater censure. Doubly, triply so, if aimed at a child

    But we need perspective. People say stupid offensive shit on WhatsApp, in texts, on social media, they are human
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,607
    Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Hmm. I'm kind of minded to agree with that... but this went on for over two years, I understand, which would seem to be plenty of time to learn how to behave,
    A question is whether the other people on the group told him he was out of order and complained, or whether some of them encouraged him. If it was a place where nasty/ribald/out of order comments were made by many people and mostly ignored (*), then it is *slightly* more excusable than if it was a forum where people were trying to organise or achieve things and he just repeatedly went off one one.

    (*) As happens on here on occasion, including from me...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    "The activist in person is probably a pest."

    You do realise how stupid that makes you sound?
    Activists are always pests.

    Imagine the fun of running a town council in the 1850s, and Cassius Clay turns up to give a speech on his personal hobby horse.

    This will nearly inevitably end up in a fight. On a number of previous occasions Clay has stabbed (and killed) people in such fights.

    He has written a book, boasting of this.

    The venue will be wrecked, maybe even burnt down. And the town will suffer a full riot, quite possibly.

    Activists, eh?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,955

    Not the biggest thing in the world, but Civ VII apparently shifting to BCE/CE is bullshit.

    Cunningly, I was planning to avoid getting it anyway. Time/money etc (if I had more, I'd be getting Kingdom Come Deliverance 2).

    BCE/CE is something that used to really annoy me. Now, as I've got older, it's just a bit meh. Not something important enough to get riled up about IMO.
    It's just another change in the world that, with advancing age, one has to accept and live with.

    Like pounds/pence instead of £sd.
    Not the same. Decimal money was an actual change from proper money.

    But BC/AD to BCE/CE changes only the label, not the date. Dates stay exactly as they were. That is why complaining about it is stupid. The Battle of Hastings was in 1066 CE or AD. We have not taken Christ out of the calendar, just off the badge. A change would have been adopting the Hebrew calendar, where this is year 5785 or the Islamic calendar (1446). That did not happen and no-one advocates it because the PTB made the smallest possible compromise on the name.
    By that rationale there's no problem with Trump changing the Gulf of Mexico's name.
    It's only a badge change, after all.
    There isn’t.

    He could call it “Fred” for all I care

    Everyone else will carry on calling it the Gulf of Mexico
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,559

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
    Ah, yes.

    "We're allowed to take this piss out of you but you're not allowed to take the piss out of us because we're victims"...
  • Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Hmm. I'm kind of minded to agree with that... but this went on for over two years, I understand, which would seem to be plenty of time to learn how to behave,
    It's a lesson to everyone in public life that any communication, no matter how confidential you think it is should not compromise you if it comes into the public domain
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,850
    Nigelb said:

    Assuming the US still has elections in 2026 and 2028, this article is well worth a read.

    America’s Demographic Revolution
    https://split-ticket.org/2025/02/08/americas-demographic-revolution/

    Oh, they’ll have elections. It’s whether they are Putin/Orban style elections that will be of interest.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,066

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
    That’s a separate issue from whether or not a joke is funny.

    And, punching up can be just as crass and unfunny as punching down.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436
    Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Hmm. I'm kind of minded to agree with that... but this went on for over two years, I understand, which would seem to be plenty of time to learn how to behave,
    On the upside at least this might teach lefties to stop being utter prigs and hypocrites. Or so we can hope
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    Driver said:

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
    Ah, yes.

    "We're allowed to take this piss out of you but you're not allowed to take the piss out of us because we're victims"...
    Feel free to explain now Nigel Farage, a rich commodities trader turned MP and party leader, is the victim in this comparison.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,732
    Sean_F said:

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
    That’s a separate issue from whether or not a joke is funny.

    And, punching up can be just as crass and unfunny as punching down.
    All sorts and forms of comedy can be done well or badly, sure.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,354
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    No. TBH I think you are trivialising.

    It's culture war stuff, and I'm surprised to hear it from any Labour MP - even that one. We've seen how the Welsh Tories first demanded that 20mph limits be done more quickly, then turned their coats and tried to create a wedge issue to save themselves at the 2024 Election.

    Enough of this chatter, and it becomes perceived as acceptable in some groups to lean out of a car and push people over, or string cables across cycle tracks. Both of these are rare, but not unknown at present. It creates what is known as a "permission structure". Members of the House of Lords (eg Hogan Howe) referring the Lords to (eg) people on cycles who he thinks are in his way as "a plague of mosquitoes" can work in a similar way, especially when combined with fictional claims.

    There was another one last week down in Bournemouth in a Facebook Group called BCP and Dorset Motorists, which I track as I did much professional training down there - to keep an eye out and to do a bit of education. There was a Lib Dem Councillor gathering evidence of dangerous behaviour at primary school drop-off time by parents with their vehicles on the zig-zag markings.

    He did some filming and published a video with extensive blurring (for obvious reasons).

    The attempt within the group was to make him out to be a paedophile filming kids and turning it into a safeguarding issue, and it made the local paper. That's the Rebecca Brooks tabloid playbook from the 1990s. The attempt is to demonise a "cyclist", rather than address the safety concern for children wanting to walk, wheel or cycle to school.

    Here's his video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIHtq1r02Zs
    And here's the newspaper article:
    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/24907934.cllr-adrian-chapmanlaw-regrets-alarm-filming-outside-school/

    What do you think? I think the "alarm" is pure politics.
    It works both ways though. Parents parking on zig-zags is potentially dangerous. People who film young children are potentially dangerous. Both are, rightly, verboten. Both sides have given themselves permission to break the rules, for they are clearly on the side of the angels.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,955

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    I fwiiw, believe Gwynne's commentary is unacceptable and unprofessional and he should have gone. In an earlier, less febrile time I am sure he could have passed it off as "satire".
    Far from condemning Gwynne, his transparency should be applauded.
    Politicians should be obliged to tweet at least 100 times a day so we'd know what really lies behind the 360° smirk. QEI complained she couldn't see into men's souls. We've solved that problem.
    I don’t think QEI was complaining. She had no desire to look into men’s souls.

    An early version of Clinton’s “don’t ask, don’t tell”?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,436

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
    Working class white boys have some of the worst educational outcomes in the country, ergo any humour aimed at white men is punching down? Is that what you think? Or are you just making up shit to justify your own bigotry?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    edited February 9

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    "The activist in person is probably a pest."

    You do realise how stupid that makes you sound?
    The world is full of do-gooders and green-inkers.
    Many of them post on PB.
    They make for ripe comic material.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    "The activist in person is probably a pest."

    You do realise how stupid that makes you sound?
    Activists are always pests.

    Imagine the fun of running a town council in the 1850s, and Cassius Clay turns up to give a speech on his personal hobby horse.

    This will nearly inevitably end up in a fight. On a number of previous occasions Clay has stabbed (and killed) people in such fights.

    He has written a book, boasting of this.

    The venue will be wrecked, maybe even burnt down. And the town will suffer a full riot, quite possibly.

    Activists, eh?
    I have no idea what this analogy is supposed to mean, but I’d hope to defend the town councillors right to pass a joke about Cassius Clay.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,220
    Nigelb said:

    Today's econ lesson.

    MAGA finding out that tariffs are not, in fact, payed by China, as they were promised.
    https://x.com/notcapnamerica/status/1888024598391967806

    This reminds me of a video I saw from a typically plank-like Trump supporter who soon after discovered that his legally-in-the-USA-but-not-yet-a-citizen wife was going to be deported under Trump's new authoritarian regime.

    One has a measure of human sympathy - but he's reaping the whirlwind he sowed.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914
    edited February 9
    SandraMc said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    "mere words" for goodness sake. What about the teenagers who have killed themselves after being bullied on social media.?
    Jesus Christ.
    No doubt you’ll soon be comparing the poor Gwynne to Adolf Hitler, who wrote “mere words” in his best-selling joke book, Mein Kampf.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,431
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Good luck. Isn't it simply this: most people, especially blokes, have within their heads and standing at one shoulder a whole range of demons of their worse nature, and at the same time are rational people chained to a sometimes lunatic especially on the subject of women.

    Some can make a living out of writing all this down for the entertainment of readers, and fair play to them. Others get away with lots because of their nature and circumstances (Boris, Trump, Hitler for a time).

    But for most positions of responsibility, most of the time, the moment the demons and the lunatic are given free expression you are taking a bet on your personal future, which you might lose. For most people sanity consists in part in keeping the demons and lunatics firmly within ones head. Civilisation rests on people generally doing so.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,914

    Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Hmm. I'm kind of minded to agree with that... but this went on for over two years, I understand, which would seem to be plenty of time to learn how to behave,
    A question is whether the other people on the group told him he was out of order and complained, or whether some of them encouraged him. If it was a place where nasty/ribald/out of order comments were made by many people and mostly ignored (*), then it is *slightly* more excusable than if it was a forum where people were trying to organise or achieve things and he just repeatedly went off one one.

    (*) As happens on here on occasion, including from me...
    Actually, you’ve repeatedly been told that “Musky Baby” is totally unacceptable.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,955

    https://www.wired.com/story/kash-patel-elite-depot-shein/

    Trump's FBI pick, Kash Patel, won't divest himself of shares in Chinese company that represent a conflict of interest.

    Why does it represent a conflict of interest per se?
    “Hi, boss. Should we continue this investigation into Shein?”
    *Then* it would be a conflict.

    But how often does the FBI investigate companies rather than individuals?

  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,958
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    No, it's a process of othering ie demonisation.

    Imagine a similar "joke" about a pedestrian run down on a Zebra crossing, or a 6 year old run down crossing the road to school where the Local Highways Authority has refused to provide such a Zebra crossing.

    It's mild compared to a lot of the stuff that comes in eg Facebook groups or Youtube comments for "motorists", or even the racism-hinting dog whistles put out by some of our politicians.

    But we need to require elected politicians to engage with the case or issue.
    The activist in person is probably a pest.
    You’re being an absolute snowflake, I’m afraid.
    It's the kind of thing that turns cyclists into "militants". You express concern about kids being hit by drivers as they cycle to school and your local councillor responds with a hope that you are ground up under the wheels of a HGV.

    When your elected representatives won't take you seriously, or indeed respond with a wish for your agonising death, you either give up or turn to more direct radical action.

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
    This is silly.
    The MP didn’t “respond”, he made a private joke.
    For all we know, the activist in question is a do-gooding pest.
    So police officers who make distasteful jokes on WhatsApp shouldn’t be fired then?
    No, they shouldn’t. And nor should this Labour MP. And nor should the DOGE kid with his edgy tweets

    We are far too censorious about all this nonsense, they are mere words, whether uttered by left, right or fucking annoying centrist dads

    Give people a chance to apologise, learn from mistakes, move on

    If they THEN continue to be wankers, then by all means come down much harder
    Fair enough I think in ordinary roles. There's little to be gained from chucking someone out of a job they are otherwise doing well and qualified for because made fruity comments they thought were private. Absent any aggravating material. Police are a difficult one as given the powers we give them there needs to be confidence they're not making decisions based on foul views. So context may be important.

    In the case of Gwynne, it's politics and the nature of it. Labour want to win elections, of course they're going to ditch someone caught insulting voters who is going to reminded of that at every turn. That's politics. Michael Howard in his day sacked a Tory for stating the obvious that the Tories would cut more than they were letting on because it harmed the party's message.

    In the case of the DOGE kids. Well. The question is more whether putting a load of children whose main qualification appears to be being fans of Musk (obviously they can code, but so can lots of other more experienced people). Who clearly haven't grown up enough to not behave stupidly in charge of remaking the entire US government in the first place. The fact that decisions that maybe the most controversial and consequential in 80+ years are being made by people who haven't grown out of their "haha Neo-Nazis are cool as they trigger the libs" phase of adolescent rebellion is a story.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,850
    edited February 9
    viewcode said:

    Senator John Kennedy (the junior United States senator from Louisiana) has objections to the Chagos Islands deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FKJ1zyRSY

    Thanks for that post, it’s fantastic. It confirms everything I have been explaining about this.

    US are playing us as their bitch on Chagos - have been doing so all along. It’s there in all the things your man didn’t say and spun around - that as patriotic Britains in our interest, not theirs, things we need to be mindful of, to cut through any “spin” in the video. I’ll repeat them, yet again.

    Take the key bit, where he talks about standing beside us as we take “a hit” at the United Nations. At least he was honest about the hit - many PB pirates claim there will be no such hit!

    But US won’t be taking the hit. The UN assembly have passed motions for UK to cede sovereignty, their courts have found against us on the illegality on which we took the islands, and I agree we could say no, keep appealing against it - but do you concede we cannot do this stalling without at least some reputational damage, self inflicted hit upon a senior leader in the institution?

    As we swallow their “just trying to save us from our own mistake” spin your video was 100% about: we know United States (and India) behind all the “we are your special friend” have never been fans but belligerent enemies of British Colonialism - hacking away at Britains Old Empire and influence for most last hundred years - whilst, where it suits them like this - using us to do the messy stuff for them, like ethically cleanse Chagos.

    When he repeats Mauritius want £18B the same £9B over 100 years lease money, but inflation proofed, that came into us after newspaper reports about Mauritius government allegedly said the agreement was inflation proofed, but both parties in the negotiation clearly and consistently deny that’s any part of the package - like we can’t guess now who planted that in the press to support their argument - are you quite comfortable repeating £18B?

    I still claim I have the British Foreign Office and Chatham House on my side - whilst you have a Populist UK press and the US Gentleman in the video coaching you. These are the key facts I think supporting my argument, that I am wary about facing down the UN on this, as MAGA want us to: How history got us here consists of US calling all the shots on Chagos since mid 60s, such as ethically cleanse the island, which we did for them. UK negotiated this new deal not independently from USA, but with the Biden Administration - who obviously liked it as they wrote it. And India likes it too.

    To what degree do you sense you have been, and maybe still being played by the likes of the Gentleman in the video?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,941
    Driver said:

    Fishing said:

    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Re: Andrew Gwynne MP:

    A bad 'un. A further comment he made wrt to someone who asked for more cycle lanes. This came via a report to a (very effective) activist group in the area called Walk Ride GM:

    “Another outrageous exchange came after a councillor mentions a constituent called 'Nick' who asked for more cycle lanes and comments: 'That Nick is something else.'

    Mr Gwynne, who represents the Gorton and Denton constituency, replies: 'I had positive visions of him getting mown down by an Elsa Waste HGV while he's cycling to the Fallowfield Loop [cycle lane]. We couldn't be that lucky!'”


    https://bsky.app/profile/walkridegm.org.uk/post/3lhqckonbcc2z

    Is that it? It’s simple black humour.
    I’ve certainly said worse, but politicians aren’t allowed to tell offensive jokes, in the way that ordinary people can.

    Nor are standup comics if they want to get anywhere on the scene, at least according to a friend of mine. NIgel Farage and straight white men generally are fair game, but gays, women, minorities or the disabled absolutely aren't.

    So they self-censor, so they're less funny, so standup comedy is declining fast.

    Go woke, no joke, go broke.
    Has anyone explained to you the difference between punching up and punching down in comedy?
    Ah, yes.

    "We're allowed to take this piss out of you but you're not allowed to take the piss out of us because we're victims"...
    “Victims? Aren’t we all?”

    - Eric Draven
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,850

    viewcode said:

    Senator John Kennedy (the junior United States senator from Louisiana) has objections to the Chagos Islands deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FKJ1zyRSY

    Thanks for that post, it’s fantastic. It confirms everything I have been explaining about this.

    US are playing us as their bitch on Chagos - have been doing so all along. It’s there in all the things your man didn’t say and spun around - that as patriotic Britains in our interest, not theirs, things we need to be mindful of, to cut through any “spin” in the video. I’ll repeat them, yet again.

    Take the key bit, where he talks about standing beside us as we take “a hit” at the United Nations. At least he was honest about the hit - many PB pirates claim there will be no such hit!

    But US won’t be taking the hit. The UN assembly have passed motions for UK to cede sovereignty, their courts have found against us on the illegality on which we took the islands, and I agree we could say no, keep appealing against it - but do you concede we cannot do this stalling without at least some reputational damage, self inflicted hit upon a senior leader in the institution?

    As we swallow their “just trying to save us from our own mistake” spin your video was 100% about: we know United States (and India) behind all the “we are your special friend” have never been fans but belligerent enemies of British Colonialism - hacking away at Britains Old Empire and influence for most last hundred years - whilst, where it suits them like this - using us to do the messy stuff for them, like ethically cleanse Chagos.

    When he repeats Mauritius want £18B the same £9B over 100 years lease money, but inflation proofed, that came into us after newspaper reports about Mauritius government allegedly said the agreement was inflation proofed, but both parties in the negotiation clearly and consistently deny that’s any part of the package - like we can’t guess now who planted that in the press to support their argument - are you quite comfortable repeating £18B?

    I still claim I have the British Foreign Office and Chatham House on my side - whilst you have a Populist UK press and the US Gentleman in the video coaching you. These are the key facts I think supporting my argument, that I am wary about facing down the UN on this, as MAGA want us to: How history got us here consists of US calling all the shots on Chagos since mid 60s, such as ethically cleanse the island, which we did for them. UK negotiated this new deal not independently from USA, but with the Biden Administration - who obviously liked it as they wrote it. And India likes it too.

    To what degree do you sense you have been, and maybe still being played by the likes of the Gentleman in the video?
    And why do I regularly post on PB whilst eating Sunday Lunch? 🤦‍♀️
  • Not sure I'd seen this one mentioned. Looks like they'd all be snookered.

    JLP@JLPartnersPolls
    ·
    5h
    NEW:
    @JLPartnersPolls
    POLARIS forecast in The Sunday Times shows Reform up to 102 seats, Labour down sharply.

    🔴 LAB 200 (-211)
    🔵 CON 190 (+69)
    🟣 REF 102 (+97)
    🟡 LDEM 70 (-2)

    23 of the 40 'Red Wall' seats that delivered Boris Johnson's 2019 victory are set to go to Reform.
This discussion has been closed.