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What’s this polling going to look like by the end of Trump’s second term? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,320
edited February 3 in General
What’s this polling going to look like by the end of Trump’s second term? – politicalbetting.com

More Britons would rather have the EU than the US as Britain's closest trading partnerThe EU: 53% (+2 from 2 Mar 2020)The US: 21% (+4)Neither: 7% (-3)https://t.co/mCGCqH1KtU pic.twitter.com/MwkYgoTiIV

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Comments

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,202
    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    That's as maybe, but we simply don't have the naval assets to contribute.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,367
    Hate to go on-topic so early in a thread but...

    EU 'could consider' UK joining pan-Europe customs scheme
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5g48yx0dvo
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185
    edited January 23
    It's surely essential in any discussion of Smoot Hawley to show this seminal clip from Ferris Buellars Day Off.

    https://youtu.be/yuOHbyuanbY?feature=shared

    I guess that class are all MAGA voters wishing they had paid more attention.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,745
    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/trump-admin-fires-homeland-security-advisory-boards-blaming-agendas/

    “The Department of Homeland Security has terminated all members of advisory committees, including one that has been investigating a major Chinese hack of large US telecom firms.

    “"The Cyber Safety Review Board—a Department of Homeland Security investigatory body stood up under a Biden-era cybersecurity executive order to probe major cybersecurity incidents—has been cleared of non-government members as part of a DHS-wide push to cut costs under the Trump administration, according to three people familiar with the matter," NextGov/FCW reported yesterday.”

    This is Trump being “tough” on China.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185
    Fishing said:

    Rejoining the single market but not the EU would be a classic case of a political fudge that gets the worst of both worlds. We'd be subject to whatever half-baked bureaucratic drivel comes out of Brussels without any meaningful say in its formulation, though they'd probably grant us observer status in some of their working groups or some other basically meaningless gesture.

    It would be entirely inconsistent with us being a sovereign, democratic country, and so I doubt it would last.

    Yes, it is obvious that full Rejoin is a far better option, but joining the SM is a step in the right direction.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,505
    Fishing said:

    Rejoining the single market but not the EU would be a classic case of a political fudge that gets the worst of both worlds. We'd be subject to whatever half-baked bureaucratic drivel comes out of Brussels without any meaningful say in its formulation, though they'd probably grant us observer status in some of their working groups or some other basically meaningless gesture.

    It would be entirely inconsistent with us being a sovereign, democratic country, and so I doubt it would last, even if it got past a referendum.

    That’s the consequence of being on the edge of a major economic power, as Mexico and Canada already understand. The idea that we can be an economic island is an illusion, arising from being a geographical one
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,367

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/trump-admin-fires-homeland-security-advisory-boards-blaming-agendas/

    “The Department of Homeland Security has terminated all members of advisory committees, including one that has been investigating a major Chinese hack of large US telecom firms.

    “"The Cyber Safety Review Board—a Department of Homeland Security investigatory body stood up under a Biden-era cybersecurity executive order to probe major cybersecurity incidents—has been cleared of non-government members as part of a DHS-wide push to cut costs under the Trump administration, according to three people familiar with the matter," NextGov/FCW reported yesterday.”

    This is Trump being “tough” on China.

    I saw that story in another place and could not work out whether it was DHS staff being withdrawn or non-DHS staff excluded.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    edited January 23
    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,231
    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612

    Hate to go on-topic so early in a thread but...

    EU 'could consider' UK joining pan-Europe customs scheme
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5g48yx0dvo

    At least the govt seems to be consulting the right people too.

    "The BBC understands that the UK government has begun consultations with business over the benefits of the PEM plan that could help cut red tape and improve trade. No final decision has been made yet."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    edited January 23
    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.

    When you put it like that it does appear we have more in common with that bloc.

    People dont really want growth anyway, heck, degrowth is even openly an idea promoted now by some.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/trump-admin-fires-homeland-security-advisory-boards-blaming-agendas/

    “The Department of Homeland Security has terminated all members of advisory committees, including one that has been investigating a major Chinese hack of large US telecom firms.

    “"The Cyber Safety Review Board—a Department of Homeland Security investigatory body stood up under a Biden-era cybersecurity executive order to probe major cybersecurity incidents—has been cleared of non-government members as part of a DHS-wide push to cut costs under the Trump administration, according to three people familiar with the matter," NextGov/FCW reported yesterday.”

    This is Trump being “tough” on China.

    Pretty much the same at the National Institute of Health.

    https://www.statnews.com/2025/01/22/trump-administrations-cancels-scientific-meetings-abruptly/
  • Fishing said:

    Rejoining the single market but not the EU would be a classic case of a political fudge that gets the worst of both worlds. We'd be subject to whatever half-baked bureaucratic drivel comes out of Brussels without any meaningful say in its formulation, though they'd probably grant us observer status in some of their working groups or some other basically meaningless gesture.

    It would be entirely inconsistent with us being a sovereign, democratic country, and so I doubt it would last, even if it got past a referendum.

    You can't eat sovrinty. Reality may have escaped your attention, but we are already subject to whatever comes out of Brussels - EEA rules continue to push us along.

    Our market is caught between the mega market dominant players of the US, EU and China. Just as Canada doesn't get to dictate to America what the rules are in their market, the same is true with us and Europe. And with respect to it, those still arguing that actually we can actually must *know* that what they are saying is demonstrably wrong.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    Seems like I jinxed it yesterday by commenting that we hardly ever debate Brexit on here.

    Though this isn’t strictly Brexit, it’s our future economic relationship with the EU.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.

    When you put it like that it does appear we have more in common with that bloc.

    People dont really want growth anyway, heck, degrowth is even openly an idea promoted now by some.
    Arguably Tory Party policy from the last parliament.

    I think people want growth as long as it does not inconvenience them although I agree, there are people who do not.

    The EU has even funded some research into degrowth. These fringe ideas become mainstream over time. This one probably will too.

    We will get what we are given and like it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,825
    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,231
    TimS said:

    Seems like I jinxed it yesterday by commenting that we hardly ever debate Brexit on here.

    Though this isn’t strictly Brexit, it’s our future economic relationship with the EU.

    That is an important distinction- Brexit is the past, now the debate is moving on to consider the future. This new context may change the whole direction of the debate. Brexit has failed. What next?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Trump is America first. He is unlikely to care a great deal about what people in Europe think of him. Improving his popularity in the US is what matters to him not in the EU.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    Second day in a row the clock radio comes on and in my hazy semi-waking stare the first voice I hear is Donald Trump sounding off about something. Is this mornings for the next 4 years?

    At least tomorrow Trump will probably be displaced by catastrophic reports from Storm Eowyn.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 390

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/trump-admin-fires-homeland-security-advisory-boards-blaming-agendas/

    “The Department of Homeland Security has terminated all members of advisory committees, including one that has been investigating a major Chinese hack of large US telecom firms.

    “"The Cyber Safety Review Board—a Department of Homeland Security investigatory body stood up under a Biden-era cybersecurity executive order to probe major cybersecurity incidents—has been cleared of non-government members as part of a DHS-wide push to cut costs under the Trump administration, according to three people familiar with the matter," NextGov/FCW reported yesterday.”

    This is Trump being “tough” on China.

    Didn't Musk allude to them breaking everything then 'building back better'. Or is Trump a modern day Nero?

    "Nero lost all sense of right and wrong and listened to flattery with total credulity"
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,505
    kle4 said:

    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o

    Labour really do have a mandate to be anti nimby.
    I think part of what turns people to populism is sense that mainstream politicians can't get anything done. Starmer gets this.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    TimS said:

    Second day in a row the clock radio comes on and in my hazy semi-waking stare the first voice I hear is Donald Trump sounding off about something. Is this mornings for the next 4 years?

    At least tomorrow Trump will probably be displaced by catastrophic reports from Storm Eowyn.

    66 MPH winds up here, that is quite high for where I live. I Cannot remember winds like that for a while.

    I shall work from home I think.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,231
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Trump is America first. He is unlikely to care a great deal about what people in Europe think of him. Improving his popularity in the US is what matters to him not in the EU.
    You missed the point- it's what the negative view of Trump does in UK and European politics that I'm talking about.
    In any event the best way to get any kind of deal with a grifter like Trump is to be fully prepared to walk away.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,185
    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    The demographic slide affects everywhere fairly equally. Taiwan, Korea and Japan also have very low fertility rates, Vietnam has now got a plummeting fertility rate too.

    In any case if Russia can annex parts of Ukraine, and the US annex Panama, Greenland and Canada, why can't the PRC annex Taiwan?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,904
    Fishing said:

    Rejoining the single market but not the EU would be a classic case of a political fudge that gets the worst of both worlds. We'd be subject to whatever half-baked bureaucratic drivel comes out of Brussels without any meaningful say in its formulation, though they'd probably grant us observer status in some of their working groups or some other basically meaningless gesture.

    It would be entirely inconsistent with us being a sovereign, democratic country, and so I doubt it would last, even if it got past a referendum.

    Yes. We'd then join the EU for the reasons you give. A rule maker, not a rule taker.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,907
    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    TimS said:

    Second day in a row the clock radio comes on and in my hazy semi-waking stare the first voice I hear is Donald Trump sounding off about something. Is this mornings for the next 4 years?

    At least tomorrow Trump will probably be displaced by catastrophic reports from Storm Eowyn.

    He's very old, he might slow down and generate less news on a day by day level, but he's so compelling to his fans and haters that every utterance gets attention.

    So yes, get ready for his gurning expression and his voice to be more familiar to you than a close loved one for 4 years.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,745
    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    kle4 said:

    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o

    I see that at least one Conservative spokesperson has moved on a little from criticising the Govt for not doing in 3-4 months what the Conservatives failed to do in 14 years, to "they are doing things that we PLANNED to do". Well - that's a baby step step forward !

    Tory shadow levelling up secretary Kevin Hollinrake accused Labour of "taking forward Conservative initiatives" but warned their efforts would fail unless they stopped "blocking our attempts to cut EU legacy red tape".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Taz said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o

    Labour really do have a mandate to be anti nimby.
    I think part of what turns people to populism is sense that mainstream politicians can't get anything done. Starmer gets this.
    I have been very critical of Reeves to the point of triggering a couple of melts here. However I have been heartened by her language this week and changing emphasis to getting stuff done rather than just spouting about it.

    Labour seems to be moving towards where they need to be. Hammering NIMBYs and getting stuff done.

    Only concern I have is the "anti growth coalition" in the part like Miliband and Khan, who are already pushing back at it. In the case of Andy Burnham his objections seem parochial and more about driving the investment into his area. Good on him.

    An interesting pivot from labour.
    Miliband feels out of place. He's not old, but having been in office then out of it for 14 years he feels like from a different political generation. The Ken Clarke figure.

    Khan, bluntly, doesn't seem very consequential to me. Its a high profile role and so can cause embarrassment or have influence, but a three time mayor looks like settling for not playing at the top table of government.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    Second day in a row the clock radio comes on and in my hazy semi-waking stare the first voice I hear is Donald Trump sounding off about something. Is this mornings for the next 4 years?

    At least tomorrow Trump will probably be displaced by catastrophic reports from Storm Eowyn.

    66 MPH winds up here, that is quite high for where I live. I Cannot remember winds like that for a while.

    I shall work from home I think.
    This morning’s models showing up to 120mph for parts of Ireland, which would be a record. Given the wind direction though GB gets a bit of shelter from the Irish landmass.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,628
    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Not shackled to either now and that's a problem.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    That dispirits me, as i dont think Ukraine will ever get the Donbas or Crimea back.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    TimS said:

    Second day in a row the clock radio comes on and in my hazy semi-waking stare the first voice I hear is Donald Trump sounding off about something. Is this mornings for the next 4 years?

    At least tomorrow Trump will probably be displaced by catastrophic reports from Storm Eowyn.

    Don't anyone dare tell Musky Baby where "Eowyn" comes from, or he'll be launching an all out Social Media assault demanding the extradition of JRR Tolkien to face charges, and military attacks on the relevant parts of Oxfordshire.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    Things are looking up for Putin, and by extension Xi, on that score.

    Radio 4 had a MAGA on this morning commenting, in a very reasonable tone of voice, on the plans for an Ukraine “deal”. In his words deal is probably the wrong term, what they’re looking for is a ceasefire where we all agree to disagree. That means in practical terms Russia gets to keep everything it’s taken.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    edited January 23
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    The demographic slide affects everywhere fairly equally. Taiwan, Korea and Japan also have very low fertility rates, Vietnam has now got a plummeting fertility rate too.

    In any case if Russia can annex parts of Ukraine, and the US annex Panama, Greenland and Canada, why can't the PRC annex Taiwan?
    The slide affects the region, but relative to the US they take a hit, which may be a factor in terms of strength of backing by the latter?

    As to the second point, taking something if you are able was normal in history, its post WW2 thats odd. So of course anywhere could do it. But could they wait until im dead?
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 245
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,339
    edited January 23
    Barnesian said:

    Fishing said:

    Rejoining the single market but not the EU would be a classic case of a political fudge that gets the worst of both worlds. We'd be subject to whatever half-baked bureaucratic drivel comes out of Brussels without any meaningful say in its formulation, though they'd probably grant us observer status in some of their working groups or some other basically meaningless gesture.

    It would be entirely inconsistent with us being a sovereign, democratic country, and so I doubt it would last, even if it got past a referendum.

    Yes. We'd then join the EU for the reasons you give. A rule maker, not a rule taker.
    Possibly, though as we'd then have to join the Euro, which would be an act of economic suicide for a deficit country like us, I'm not sure we would, even if the EU wanted us which is by no means guaranteed. (What if Rejoin won the inevitable referendum by 51:49?) So membership of the Single Market doesn't guarantee joining the EU.

    Also one rule maker amongst 28 or more isn't really a rule maker, especially when, in practice, most of the time the majority votes the way the Commission wants.

    The best, or least bad, situation I think is the one we're in now.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,745
    .
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    That dispirits me, as i dont think Ukraine will ever get the Donbas or Crimea back.
    Crimea 27000 km2
    Total Ukrainian territory under Russian control 44000 km2
    Taiwan 36000 km2
  • MattW said:

    Thanks for the header.

    The persistence of the Reform flat-earthers as a distinct law-unto-themselves group is a consistent feature.

    I think that one factor we can't call yet is the resilience and persistence of the Reform UK Ltd deludo-bubble. They seem ime at grass roots level to be fairly persistent in their embrace of the BS, even when it involves embracing the economics of 1+1=27 or ludicrous-on-their-face conspiracy theories whether from Youtubers or GB News.

    A strange one I saw on GBN late last week - manufactured I think by Martin Daubney - was that the tidying up of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission powers across different types of cemeteries in proposals from the Law Commission is a full-on plot by the "Government" (of which the CWGC is not a part !) to "dig up the bones of our war heroes". *

    A lot of them really seem to be so far down the rabbit hole as to be unreachable.

    * It was classic GBN / Telegraph Podcast playbook - the presenter frames something in a way entirely inconsistent with the report he has just referenced, and then two (Rightie + eccentric Leftie) debate the false version just created, not the actual issue. And a fair number of listeners seem to snuffle up the BS.

    Its a problem. Most people aren't political. Many are low-information - profoundly unaware of how things work and open to being fed nonsense by manipulative stards.

    "We can dictate to Europe what happens here" is one such nonsense. No. We can't. Remember when we dropped CE for UKCA? Setting our own little UK standard for electrical conformity rather than using the proper one used by everyone? An expensive and embarrassing waste of time before we dropped it to return to CE.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    Things are looking up for Putin, and by extension Xi, on that score.

    Radio 4 had a MAGA on this morning commenting, in a very reasonable tone of voice, on the plans for an Ukraine “deal”. In his words deal is probably the wrong term, what they’re looking for is a ceasefire where we all agree to disagree. That means in practical terms Russia gets to keep everything it’s taken.
    Russia keeping something always seemed pretty likely outside a military collapse. How much that something would be presumably depended on how well and long Ukraine can fight and the level of US backing in particular. That's why its not that Ukraine is being forced to fight, but that the moment they feel they cannot defend themselves further should be put off as long as possible by helping them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    The question of ties involves linked contingencies, and this is becoming clearer.

    So the question of who the UK would like to be closely linked with in trade blocs is not unrelated to who western Europe expects to give them a hand against the Russians and any other enemies that popped up.

    A few moments ago our world was this: The EU was free Europe economically; and militarily that free Europe was the same outfits extended to friendly USA and Canada, without which everyone knew that free Europe had limited fire power with the joker in the pack being France and UK's nuclear threat.

    We can place no reliance on that old picture. To the question in the YouGov survey could be added: 'In the event of a Russian invasion of a further free European country would you prefer (1) the USA army or (2) the EU army to be on your side'.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    edited January 23
    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    What do you mean "have a go"?

    A full amphibious invasion isn't even a remotely possibility and the Breakaway Province must be one of the hardest islands on earth to invade. The Taiwan Strait is a difficult body of water with frequent monsoons, the west coast of Taiwan is very shallow and the east coast has cliffs.

    2049 (100th anniversary of the CCP) is Xi's self declared deadline for the unification of China. I think they are much more likely to achieve by the slow strangulation of Taiwanese democracy until they can install a regime sympathetic to Beijing. From there, it's just the Hong Kong plan.
    Makes more sense in national terms, will a rotting dictator stick to that as he declines, or his power removed if he becomes irrational about it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    On this, crickets.

    Shortlist announced in SMR competition
    2 October 2023
    https://namrc.co.uk/industry/gbn-smr-shortlist/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,440
    Mornin'

    The Gazette has asked me to do 800 words on Trump: Is he Good For Diorite Dildos, etc

    So at least I'm making money from The Don
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    It is good he has plans, the concern might be he only cares about his plans and not wider government priorities like growth.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    Things are looking up for Putin, and by extension Xi, on that score.

    Radio 4 had a MAGA on this morning commenting, in a very reasonable tone of voice, on the plans for an Ukraine “deal”. In his words deal is probably the wrong term, what they’re looking for is a ceasefire where we all agree to disagree. That means in practical terms Russia gets to keep everything it’s taken.
    It would be an absolute betrayal of everything we are meant to stand for. And also make the world a much more hazardous place.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    edited January 23
    Taz said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o

    Labour really do have a mandate to be anti nimby.
    I think part of what turns people to populism is sense that mainstream politicians can't get anything done. Starmer gets this.
    I have been very critical of Reeves to the point of triggering a couple of melts here. However I have been heartened by her language this week and changing emphasis to getting stuff done rather than just spouting about it.

    Labour seems to be moving towards where they need to be. Hammering NIMBYs and getting stuff done.

    Only concern I have is the "anti growth coalition" in the part like Miliband and Khan, who are already pushing back at it. In the case of Andy Burnham his objections seem parochial and more about driving the investment into his area. Good on him.

    An interesting pivot from labour.
    Rachel’s comments from Davos are actually quite interesting. She does appear to be understanding of the need to sort out planning and NIMBYism, especially with regard to housing and major infrastructure such as HS2 and LHR3.

    A government with a large majority needs to push this hard, against objections from the likes of Miliband and Khan, it will be fascinating to see how Starmer resolves this internal difference of opinion.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,783
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    Things are looking up for Putin, and by extension Xi, on that score.

    Radio 4 had a MAGA on this morning commenting, in a very reasonable tone of voice, on the plans for an Ukraine “deal”. In his words deal is probably the wrong term, what they’re looking for is a ceasefire where we all agree to disagree. That means in practical terms Russia gets to keep everything it’s taken.
    They just had Fat Legolas/Ben Wallace on and tbh his tone wasn’t that different. ‘It’s up to Ukraine what kind of deal they accept’ has a certain Munich ‘38 ring to it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    Second day in a row the clock radio comes on and in my hazy semi-waking stare the first voice I hear is Donald Trump sounding off about something. Is this mornings for the next 4 years?

    At least tomorrow Trump will probably be displaced by catastrophic reports from Storm Eowyn.

    66 MPH winds up here, that is quite high for where I live. I Cannot remember winds like that for a while.

    I shall work from home I think.
    This morning’s models showing up to 120mph for parts of Ireland, which would be a record. Given the wind direction though GB gets a bit of shelter from the Irish landmass.
    Ireland - Britain's stormbreak.

    Knew i liked them for a reason.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o

    Labour really do have a mandate to be anti nimby.
    I think part of what turns people to populism is sense that mainstream politicians can't get anything done. Starmer gets this.
    I have been very critical of Reeves to the point of triggering a couple of melts here. However I have been heartened by her language this week and changing emphasis to getting stuff done rather than just spouting about it.

    Labour seems to be moving towards where they need to be. Hammering NIMBYs and getting stuff done.

    Only concern I have is the "anti growth coalition" in the part like Miliband and Khan, who are already pushing back at it. In the case of Andy Burnham his objections seem parochial and more about driving the investment into his area. Good on him.

    An interesting pivot from labour.
    Rachel’s comments from David are actually quite interesting. She does appear to be understanding of the need to sort out planning and NIMBYism, especially with regard to housing and major infrastructure.

    A government with a large majority needs to push this hard, against objections from the likes of Miliband and Khan, it will be interesting to see how Starmer resolves this difference of opinion.
    If her position is undermined by tougher economic news then it might strengthen her case we need to prioritise growth...or it might undercut her politically as people call for her head.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    Things are looking up for Putin, and by extension Xi, on that score.

    Radio 4 had a MAGA on this morning commenting, in a very reasonable tone of voice, on the plans for an Ukraine “deal”. In his words deal is probably the wrong term, what they’re looking for is a ceasefire where we all agree to disagree. That means in practical terms Russia gets to keep everything it’s taken.
    It would be an absolute betrayal of everything we are meant to stand for. And also make the world a much more hazardous place.
    The latter is key as a practical concern never mind moral, but i fear we're at the exhaustion stage for too many.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    edited January 23
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    What do you mean "have a go"?

    A full amphibious invasion isn't even a remotely possibility and the Breakaway Province must be one of the hardest islands on earth to invade. The Taiwan Strait is a difficult body of water with frequent monsoons, the west coast of Taiwan is very shallow and the east coast has cliffs.

    2049 (100th anniversary of the CCP) is Xi's self declared deadline for the unification of China. I think they are much more likely to achieve by the slow strangulation of Taiwanese democracy until they can install a regime sympathetic to Beijing. From there, it's just the Hong Kong plan.
    Dude is 72.
    2049 is a stretch goal, unless he's just not bothered.

    A total economic blockade is about his best bet. If China were prepared to actually sink a few ships, then it might well work. They're almost at the point where their military is strong enough to risk such a thing.

    But it would be a massive risk, with plenty of downside. Not very Chinese.
  • Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    Oh he’s the one with the plan, and that’s the problem. His plan is to strangle the economy on the altar of environmentalism.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,480

    Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise

    Kemi wont dare. She'll put out something woolley about supporting growth but some fudged wording about process and people's concerns.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    A good list.

    For me, there's a more earthy reason. China have spent a couple of decades massively expanding and upgrading their military's capabilities. They have lots of shiny new toys, and people - even military brass - love playing with their toys.

    But the toys wear out and become outdated. I reckon we're near peak Chinese military: they'll find it hard to keep on giving the military the funding they have been giving as the Chinese economic miracle slows. If they don't use their toys in the next decade, they'll start to lose them.

    Also, the way the military has been behaving in the South China Seas is instructive. At best, bullying. At worst, asking for a fight.

    Many in the Chinese military will want a war. The question is, if Xi does not, can he resist them?
    I saw a comment that the end of this decade, something like 2029, was the key, as supposedly a bunch of military reforms are due for completion around then, Emperor Xi will be getting worried about his legacy as he enters ageing tyrant age, and the demographic slide won't yet have started to really bite. So if not then, then never.
    A key question is whether Russia gets what it wants in Ukraine. If the Russo-Ukrainian war comes to an end with Russia gaining significant territory (greater than the area of Taiwan), that will embolden China. If the Russo-Ukrainian war ends with regime change in Moscow, Xi will think twice.
    Things are looking up for Putin, and by extension Xi, on that score.

    Radio 4 had a MAGA on this morning commenting, in a very reasonable tone of voice, on the plans for an Ukraine “deal”. In his words deal is probably the wrong term, what they’re looking for is a ceasefire where we all agree to disagree. That means in practical terms Russia gets to keep everything it’s taken.
    It would be an absolute betrayal of everything we are meant to stand for. And also make the world a much more hazardous place.
    That doesn't apply to Trump, obvs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,954
    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    The problem comes with the idea that we *must* restrict energy usage by price. This has become a bit of a shibboleth, to some.

    But when solar + batteries falls past the other options - which it will - what then?

    To some, the idea of cheap power fuelling growth is another problem.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    What do you mean "have a go"?

    A full amphibious invasion isn't even a remotely possibility and the Breakaway Province must be one of the hardest islands on earth to invade. The Taiwan Strait is a difficult body of water with frequent monsoons, the west coast of Taiwan is very shallow and the east coast has cliffs.

    2049 (100th anniversary of the CCP) is Xi's self declared deadline for the unification of China. I think they are much more likely to achieve by the slow strangulation of Taiwanese democracy until they can install a regime sympathetic to Beijing. From there, it's just the Hong Kong plan.
    IMV there is too much concentration on on invasion. I don't think that would be the first stage. Instead, China will try a military blockade of Taiwan. The only ships and planes that China will allow through to Taiwan are the ones China 'approve' of - probably only from the Chinese mainland. Obviously carrying 'humanitarian supplies'...

    The invasion fleet will be there as a warning; the clunking fist to the soft threats.

    China will say "These are our waters, not international ones. Keep out." And it will be up to the west to see if we try to force the issue militarily. Which may be more than a little difficult.

    This also fits in with the adventurism we have seen from the Chinese navy over the last few years.

    Xi and the Chinese are many things, but they are not stupid.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,783
    edited January 23
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
    One should never underestimate the ability of the petty, whiny Eye of SaurElon to alight upon the little people,
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,237
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Rejoining the single market but not the EU would be a classic case of a political fudge that gets the worst of both worlds. We'd be subject to whatever half-baked bureaucratic drivel comes out of Brussels without any meaningful say in its formulation, though they'd probably grant us observer status in some of their working groups or some other basically meaningless gesture.

    It would be entirely inconsistent with us being a sovereign, democratic country, and so I doubt it would last, even if it got past a referendum.

    That’s the consequence of being on the edge of a major economic power, as Mexico and Canada already understand. The idea that we can be an economic island is an illusion, arising from being a geographical one
    But Canada and Mexico aren't in a customs union or a single market with the US. And there's no FoM and no agreement on food standards.

    Not sure whose FTA is technically closer - the UK-EU one or Nu-NAFTA but it's probably ours, I would think.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,907
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
    I hereby withdraw my wrong accusation that Ed Davey is an irrelevance to Musk. My defence is I’ve never had a Twitter account so don’t have to see any of these utterances.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031
    kle4 said:

    Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise

    Kemi wont dare. She'll put out something woolley about supporting growth but some fudged wording about process and people's concerns.
    Hopefully the maquis of the Greens, JSO and XR will put a stop to it via direct action.🌻💪
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,436
    kle4 said:

    Some good lamguage from the PM on tackling NIMBY legal challenges to major projects, but does he have the will to go against the tide?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3l9jdy2q1o

    Beg to disagree. 'Vow' in the headline 'pledge' in the first sentence of the report does not suggest Trump is on the case. I think actually there is the will in government to go against the tide, but watching the timeline up to the actually completion and proper working of projects X, Y and Z will be informative. It's a real test of the power of the process state Malmesbury reminds us of.

    As to, say, the London airport timeline, those who like me are old enough to recall it will note that the timeline began in 1968, but 57 years ago, when the Roskill commission statred to sit. Still counting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,153
    .

    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    The problem comes with the idea that we *must* restrict energy usage by price. This has become a bit of a shibboleth, to some.

    But when solar + batteries falls past the other options - which it will - what then?

    To some, the idea of cheap power fuelling growth is another problem.
    Balls to them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021

    Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise

    Yes Kemi absolutely needs to line the Tories up behind Reeves on the 3rd runway, the current airport is way beyond capacity and it’s affecting the entire economy.

    Don’t line up behind the Chancellor on raising Air Passenger Duty though.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,237


    Good Morning from the "Breakaway Province".
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    edited January 23
    boulay said:

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
    I hereby withdraw my wrong accusation that Ed Davey is an irrelevance to Musk. My defence is I’ve never had a Twitter account so don’t have to see any of these utterances.
    Cheers. I'm not sure where I picked it up from.

    In defence of your position, I'm not sure that a reply from Musk means anything at all, since he's a complete flippertigibbert.

    To my eye, the Davey piece has a lot of good things in it, and is addressing social media from a decent angle - what are these problems, and how can we work on them?

    IIRC, there's enough in the Labour manifesto to support some adjustments of the regulatory setup.

    ( @Theuniondivvie , "Eye of Sauron" is quite good, nearly as good as "Il Douche".)
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 245
    Nigelb said:

    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    On this, crickets.

    Shortlist announced in SMR competition
    2 October 2023
    https://namrc.co.uk/industry/gbn-smr-shortlist/
    My personal view is that small scale reactors will have the same issues as large scale ones (hello NuScale !).

    While solar panel costs continue to fall , nuclear costs only ever go one way - and then some, regardless of size or technology.

    We might as well bite the bullet and spunk £20 billion on some massive inter-connectors & storage from Morocco.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,237

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    What do you mean "have a go"?

    A full amphibious invasion isn't even a remotely possibility and the Breakaway Province must be one of the hardest islands on earth to invade. The Taiwan Strait is a difficult body of water with frequent monsoons, the west coast of Taiwan is very shallow and the east coast has cliffs.

    2049 (100th anniversary of the CCP) is Xi's self declared deadline for the unification of China. I think they are much more likely to achieve by the slow strangulation of Taiwanese democracy until they can install a regime sympathetic to Beijing. From there, it's just the Hong Kong plan.
    IMV there is too much concentration on on invasion. I don't think that would be the first stage. Instead, China will try a military blockade of Taiwan. The only ships and planes that China will allow through to Taiwan are the ones China 'approve' of - probably only from the Chinese mainland. Obviously carrying 'humanitarian supplies'...

    The invasion fleet will be there as a warning; the clunking fist to the soft threats.

    China will say "These are our waters, not international ones. Keep out." And it will be up to the west to see if we try to force the issue militarily. Which may be more than a little difficult.

    This also fits in with the adventurism we have seen from the Chinese navy over the last few years.

    Xi and the Chinese are many things, but they are not stupid.
    Surely a long blockade would give them chance to try to resurrect and complete their nuclear program?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541
    edited January 23
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise

    Yes Kemi absolutely needs to line the Tories up behind Reeves on the 3rd runway, the current airport is way beyond capacity and it’s affecting the entire economy.

    Don’t line up behind the Chancellor on raising Air Passenger Duty though.
    Why not? If there's massive demand for more flights of Heathrow, then an increase in tax is not going to have a material difference. And let's be honest, APD is a much more equitable pigou tax than many other climate measures, targeting the richest and largest polluters.

    You could use the additional funds to build lots of cycle lanes and electric buses in the north of England.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,438
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
    I hereby withdraw my wrong accusation that Ed Davey is an irrelevance to Musk. My defence is I’ve never had a Twitter account so don’t have to see any of these utterances.
    Cheers. I'm not sure where I picked it up from.

    In defence of your position, I'm not sure that a reply from Musk means anything at all, since he's a complete flippertigibbert....
    In my most epic case of pedantry ever, it's "flibbertigibbet" :)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031
    If the UKG were serious about Formosa (spoiler: they aren't). They'd put the HMS PoW through the Taiwan Strait on CSG25. Clinton did it with the Nimitz and W did it with the Kitty Hawk.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    Objecting to runway 3 at Heathrow and airport expansion, stopping the mine in Cumbria, stopping new oil and gas in the North sea is hardly the act of a man embracing opportunities for growth.

    I am all in favour of renewables but for the foreseeable future we will need oil and gas and we will also need oil for the other by products that come from it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,533
    Foss said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    What do you mean "have a go"?

    A full amphibious invasion isn't even a remotely possibility and the Breakaway Province must be one of the hardest islands on earth to invade. The Taiwan Strait is a difficult body of water with frequent monsoons, the west coast of Taiwan is very shallow and the east coast has cliffs.

    2049 (100th anniversary of the CCP) is Xi's self declared deadline for the unification of China. I think they are much more likely to achieve by the slow strangulation of Taiwanese democracy until they can install a regime sympathetic to Beijing. From there, it's just the Hong Kong plan.
    IMV there is too much concentration on on invasion. I don't think that would be the first stage. Instead, China will try a military blockade of Taiwan. The only ships and planes that China will allow through to Taiwan are the ones China 'approve' of - probably only from the Chinese mainland. Obviously carrying 'humanitarian supplies'...

    The invasion fleet will be there as a warning; the clunking fist to the soft threats.

    China will say "These are our waters, not international ones. Keep out." And it will be up to the west to see if we try to force the issue militarily. Which may be more than a little difficult.

    This also fits in with the adventurism we have seen from the Chinese navy over the last few years.

    Xi and the Chinese are many things, but they are not stupid.
    Surely a long blockade would give them chance to try to resurrect and complete their nuclear program?
    It also assumes that the US Pacific fleet stand idly by and tolerates an embargo that would have very significant adverse effects on the US economy, particularly in the supply of chips. Until they get self sufficient that seems unlikely to me.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    carnforth said:



    Good Morning from the "Breakaway Province".

    Calm before the Storm ?

    It looks very serene.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
    I hereby withdraw my wrong accusation that Ed Davey is an irrelevance to Musk. My defence is I’ve never had a Twitter account so don’t have to see any of these utterances.
    Cheers. I'm not sure where I picked it up from.

    In defence of your position, I'm not sure that a reply from Musk means anything at all, since he's a complete flippertigibbert.

    To my eye, the Davey piece has a lot of good things in it, and is addressing social media from a decent angle - what are these problems, and how can we work on them?

    IIRC, there's enough in the Labour manifesto to support some adjustments of the regulatory setup.

    ( @Theuniondivvie , "Eye of Sauron" is quite good, nearly as good as "Il Douche".)
    Davey’s current approach is the right one. There is very limited mileage in just apeing the populism of the rest (Lib Dem local council NIMBYs take note).

    For all the talk of the Zeitgeist, and Overton windows and je suis Tommie there is still a market out there for more old school politics.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,169

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/trump-admin-fires-homeland-security-advisory-boards-blaming-agendas/

    “The Department of Homeland Security has terminated all members of advisory committees, including one that has been investigating a major Chinese hack of large US telecom firms.

    “"The Cyber Safety Review Board—a Department of Homeland Security investigatory body stood up under a Biden-era cybersecurity executive order to probe major cybersecurity incidents—has been cleared of non-government members as part of a DHS-wide push to cut costs under the Trump administration, according to three people familiar with the matter," NextGov/FCW reported yesterday.”

    This is Trump being “tough” on China.

    It's worth noting that the incident discussed, Salt Typhoon, may be the worst cyber attack against the US ever discovered. So it's not some trival thing to disband a group investigating it.

    Mind you given that Trump is thinking of abolishing FEMA there are even crazier plans afoot.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541
    kenObi said:

    Nigelb said:

    kenObi said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Most of the public prefer us to be shackled to an economic bloc that is currently in decline rather than one that is motoring ahead by comparison.



    Taz, we are adrift and going under, hard to see how we ever get out of the downward spiral when you see the dross that run the country. It is hard to conceive how so many talentless people are politician's.
    Indeed and they all, or mainly, seem to come from the same route. Via NGO's, Charities or former SPAD's. No real life experience. We have a business department where the ministers have no real life experience of running a business.

    At least Rachel Reeves now seems to get the need you actually have to do something to get growth rather than just speak about it. However there are too many like Ed Miliband in the govt who will stymie growth.
    The same Ed Miliband who is steam rolling through solar farms, on shore wind and pylons ?

    I think some of his ideas are crackers (carbon capture, 5% reliance on gas also seems a bit low) but he seems one of the few who actually had a plan for when in government and is cracking on with it.
    On this, crickets.

    Shortlist announced in SMR competition
    2 October 2023
    https://namrc.co.uk/industry/gbn-smr-shortlist/
    My personal view is that small scale reactors will have the same issues as large scale ones (hello NuScale !).

    While solar panel costs continue to fall , nuclear costs only ever go one way - and then some, regardless of size or technology.

    We might as well bite the bullet and spunk £20 billion on some massive inter-connectors & storage from Morocco.
    I hadn't realised that Morocco has much more reliable wind as well, so when it's not blowing in the North Sea...
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,208
    Dura_Ace said:

    If the UKG were serious about Formosa (spoiler: they aren't). They'd put the HMS PoW through the Taiwan Strait on CSG25. Clinton did it with the Nimitz and W did it with the Kitty Hawk.

    Rapid unscheduled decommissioning?
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 245
    DavidL said:

    . To be absolutely clear about it a trade deficit is measured as a negative when assessing growth. The larger the deficit the more it negatively impacts on growth.

    ++Donald Trump has joined the conversation++

    The UK's trade deficit in goods is largely offset by a surplus in services. The overall deficit isn't large compared with the size of the economy.

    It's this kind of idiocy that leads to people claiming we must be self sufficient in making / producing their pet hobby horse.
    If you think having a deficit in making ultra cheap clothes or shoes is a bad thing (or "bad for growth") you are deluded.

    It seems David Ricardo's ideas were wasted on the country of his birth.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,904
    edited January 23

    Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise

    Gatwick can be expanded to the same extent for an estimated £2b - 10% of the cost of a third runway at Heathrow and far quicker. That is why airlines are opposed to a third runway at Heathrow. And they aren't Nimbys.

    It is argued that Gatwick isn't a hub airport but the strong trend is to point to point. A third runway at Heathrow wouldn't be operational until the mid 2030s.

    I think there is a knee jerk anti London reaction in some places.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,907
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    All those media wh*res ramping Farage as the next PM or some such rubbish could well be totally missing the direction of travel.
    Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday is a thoughtful dissection of the threat of Musk and the other tech cronies.
    The mood music across Europe concerning the new Trump order is strongly negative, and the bombastic, tawdry style of the new administration unlikely to improve Trump's already low popularity here.
    Trump scepticism has a solid franchise with the voters- Sir Ed could well gain massively by expressing this.

    Crikey, that’s a brutal bit of damning with faint praise, “Ed Davey's decent, intelligent moderation is finally getting the attention it deserves. His piece in the Guardian yesterday”.

    If the attention it deserves is limited to an article in the guardian it’s not exactly a Twitter storm or the rest of the media relaying his thoughts.

    He’s irrelevant as are the LDs. Reform are a bunch of nuts and they get more coverage with their smaller seat base.

    Even Elon Musk hasn’t bothered to have a pop at him as he doesn’t know he’s being criticised by him.
    (My photo quota - Elon Musk does not like intelligent moderation afaics, and does not do intelligent engagement.)

    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1876258736131416409
    I hereby withdraw my wrong accusation that Ed Davey is an irrelevance to Musk. My defence is I’ve never had a Twitter account so don’t have to see any of these utterances.
    Cheers. I'm not sure where I picked it up from.

    In defence of your position, I'm not sure that a reply from Musk means anything at all, since he's a complete flippertigibbert.

    To my eye, the Davey piece has a lot of good things in it, and is addressing social media from a decent angle - what are these problems, and how can we work on them?

    IIRC, there's enough in the Labour manifesto to support some adjustments of the regulatory setup.

    ( @Theuniondivvie , "Eye of Sauron" is quite good, nearly as good as "Il Douche".)
    Wouldn’t “Brown-eye of Sauron” be suitably more unpleasant?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,628
    DavidL said:

    The bizarre assumption in the header that membership of the SM would magically create growth here is just irritating. Membership did not increase our growth, it increased our trade deficit. That meant the benefits of our (excessive) consumption were felt elsewhere, not here. To be absolutely clear about it a trade deficit is measured as a negative when assessing growth. The larger the deficit the more it negatively impacts on growth.

    So why does anyone think that membership of the SM would increase growth? What is the evidence that we are more competitive than when we left the SM? What new opportunities are available to us that would improve our export capacity? I am seeing the reverse. Germany is really struggling at the moment, on the edge of recession, and has been for a few years now. I don't see additional demand for UK products or services there. France is not much better. Overall the EU is growing quite slowly, dragged down by German underperformance.

    If we were to make a go of the SM we would need years and years of major investment in our industry to boost productivity. We might, arguably, have started that thanks to Hunt's more generous write off provisions but we need to do so much more. We need to boost our skills levels. We need to think about how it could be made more attractive to employ people in the UK rather than elsewhere in the SM. Reeves' NI changes, of course, had the opposite effect.

    Membership of the SM can be a good or a bad but it is not a given benefit. It is only a benefit if we can make it work for us. If we can reduce our trade deficit and, in fantasy land, even generate a surplus it would be a boost to growth. When we have economic policies, taxation policies and the skills base to compete we can think about it. Right now it seems a continuation of the same policies that have impoverished this country over the last 30 years, turning us into a net debtor country with much of our remaining capacity owned by others.

    UK growth did pick up after the creation of the Single Market in 1993, as did the trade imbalance. Not necessarily all related to the Single Market, but some was. The EU generally is growing faster than the UK, but no-one is exactly a powerhouse.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    FPT:
    A few reasons why I think China will have a go:
    1) Trump dislikes China but this may not mean he'll want Americans to die, preferring an economic to military approach.
    2) China's demographically screwed. It's on a plateau and will soon decline at an increasing rate, decreasing its strength relative to America over the next century. Striking now is from the peak of its power.
    3) Xi Jinping won't be around forever. If he wants to have a go he needs to do it sooner rather than later.
    4) European rearmament hasn't exactly kicked in the afterburners but that *might* happen (in countries beyond Poland, which does seem to be increasing Defence capabilities significantly) in the medium term. I suspect it won't, but why delay and take that risk?
    5) Ukraine versus Russia is ongoing, which is a useful distraction for China.

    What do you mean "have a go"?

    A full amphibious invasion isn't even a remotely possibility and the Breakaway Province must be one of the hardest islands on earth to invade. The Taiwan Strait is a difficult body of water with frequent monsoons, the west coast of Taiwan is very shallow and the east coast has cliffs.

    2049 (100th anniversary of the CCP) is Xi's self declared deadline for the unification of China. I think they are much more likely to achieve by the slow strangulation of Taiwanese democracy until they can install a regime sympathetic to Beijing. From there, it's just the Hong Kong plan.
    Dude is 72.
    2049 is a stretch goal, unless he's just not bothered.

    A total economic blockade is about his best bet. If China were prepared to actually sink a few ships, then it might well work. They're almost at the point where their military is strong enough to risk such a thing.

    But it would be a massive risk, with plenty of downside. Not very Chinese.
    They must also see how Ukraine has gone for Putin which must give them pause for thought.
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 245
    Barnesian said:

    Good morning

    Reeves wants a third runway at Heathrow and Kemi needs to support this 100%

    It is exactly what should be at the forefront of any growth agenda

    Mind you, Khan and Burnham with others will be furious but the interesting one is Starmer who has opposed this as well, but with Starmer he will just change his position once again which would be no surprise

    Gatwick can be expanded to the same extent for an estimated £2b - 10% of the cost of a third runway at Heathrow and far quicker. That is why airlines are opposed to a third runway at Heathrow. And they aren't Nimbys.
    which airlines are these ?

    I'm sure they will all crib about Heathrow trying to inflate the cost, but no country the size of the UK is going to have 2 hub and spoke airports within 40 miles of each other.
This discussion has been closed.