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Pitched Out – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,254
edited January 15 in General
Pitched Out – politicalbetting.com

Andy Malkinson, who spent 17 years in jail for a rape he did not commit, has welcomed the resignation of the chair of the miscarriages of justice review body.But he reveals to @justinonweb that he's still not received any compensation from the government. #R4Today

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    edited January 15
    FIRST !!!!!!

    Back of the Net !!!!

    Although such triumphalism feels inappropriate given the content above !!!
  • Thank you Cyclefree
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    You wonder what job the egregious Ms Pitcher will get now.

    Ethical adviser to the Met, perhaps?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,129
    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.
  • Just a heads up for fans of Jason Beer KC.

    He is representing Greater Manchester Police in the Malkinson inquiry.

    He will try and defend & excuse the indefensible.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    You have to wonder how these people get hired for multiple jobs. Do they all go to the same dinner parties or something "Oh yes, a non execs come up at Quangocorp. It'd be just right for an occasional friday afternoon for you, Tasmin"
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    "Andy Malkinson was convicted of a particularly brutal rape in 2004. His conviction was quashed in 2023 after two previous applications to the CCRC to take his case in 2009 and 2018 (when Helen Pitcher became its Chair) were turned down. It was quashed on the basis that there was clear forensic and other evidence in the hands of the authorities which proved his innocence, which had been in their possession for some considerable time and which should have been disclosed long before it was."

    Surely someone should be held to account for this.

    Misconduct in Public Office, Perverting the Course of Justice ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    Just a heads up for fans of Jason Beer KC.

    He is representing Greater Manchester Police in the Malkinson inquiry.

    He will try and defend & excuse the indefensible.

    I think they'll need a lot of Beer to make us forget this.

    In fact, they'd be better advised to try vodka.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,013
    edited January 15
    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    It will be fascinating to hear what has gone on here, in the fullness of time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,766
    Taz said:

    "Andy Malkinson was convicted of a particularly brutal rape in 2004. His conviction was quashed in 2023 after two previous applications to the CCRC to take his case in 2009 and 2018 (when Helen Pitcher became its Chair) were turned down. It was quashed on the basis that there was clear forensic and other evidence in the hands of the authorities which proved his innocence, which had been in their possession for some considerable time and which should have been disclosed long before it was."

    Surely someone should be held to account for this.

    Misconduct in Public Office, Perverting the Course of Justice ?

    Move on. Appoint someone halfway competent to the CCRC for a start.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,861

    Taz said:

    "Andy Malkinson was convicted of a particularly brutal rape in 2004. His conviction was quashed in 2023 after two previous applications to the CCRC to take his case in 2009 and 2018 (when Helen Pitcher became its Chair) were turned down. It was quashed on the basis that there was clear forensic and other evidence in the hands of the authorities which proved his innocence, which had been in their possession for some considerable time and which should have been disclosed long before it was."

    Surely someone should be held to account for this.

    Misconduct in Public Office, Perverting the Course of Justice ?

    Move on. Appoint someone halfway competent to the CCRC for a start.
    If ever there was an organisation which needed someone dedicated, and with an inquisitive and open mind, it's the CCRC.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    edited January 15
    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,766
    Perhaps a new CCRC remit, with its members getting a bonus for every prisoner exonerated rather than being concerned with protecting the system.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    Good news for Reeves today, sharp fall in the 10 yr rate on cool inflation data - down 0.17% today.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095

    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    It will be fascinating to hear what has gone on here, in the fullness of time.
    Try hard to get a deal, give the Mauritians enough rope, regretfully conclude it's not possible. Status quo maintained, "international community" mollified.

    (No, me neither, but it would be a masterstroke.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    edited January 15
    carnforth said:

    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    It will be fascinating to hear what has gone on here, in the fullness of time.
    Try hard to get a deal, give the Mauritians enough rope, regretfully conclude it's not possible. Status quo maintained, "international community" mollified.

    (No, me neither, but it would be a masterstroke.)
    If that is what has happened I would award medals to the conniving British diplomats that did it. However, when you look at the close relationships between a dolt like Starmer and his friend Philippe Sands KC, you realise a much more negative conclusion is the only one available

    Also, Starmer has burned an enormous amount of political capital to get this deal, and earned the scorn and hatred of people who couldn’t even place Diego Garcia on a map, so it makes no sense politically, either. He genuinely wanted this, and thought it was worth a lot of effort and all our money even if it made him even more loathsome
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,580
    Ultimately the head of any organisation will go after any Review or Inquiry or Report has a damning critique of that organisation. Even if in Pitcher's case she was chair of the body not the CEO, who has most day to day control. Haythornthwaite was an adviser not it seems even on the board but his case does show chairs should limit the number of such chair and advisory roles they take to ensure they can do them effectively
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    Good header.

    These multiple part-time roles are clearly an issue in both the public and private sector, as with the example of Rick Haythornthwaite that Cyclefree gives. I am also reminded of Elon Musk, who is CEO and chief engineer of SpaceX, CEO and product architect of Tesla, CTO and executive chairman of Twitter, president of the charitable Musk Foundation, and co-running the Presidential Advisory Commission known as DOGE, while spending 14 hours a day tweeting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Excellent as ever @Cyclefree

    NU10K - “I may have presided over and been responsible for an utter mess which has ruined other’s lives but if you think I am going to be forced out without a fight and a gigantic pay-off, think again”.

    On point I would disagree with. The Lord Carrington resignation covered up the actions of permanent officials in the Foreign Office.

    In the run up to the invasion, they worked to wreck the career of the MI6 guy in Argentina. Who kept reporting the Argentine military build up. This went against the Departmental Policy - that negotaitions. with Argentina about handing over the Falklands were the way to go.

    In the end he left MI6. Apparently, the Foreign Office types found him a "divisive influence". Presumably he wasn't a Team Player, as well.

    The Sir Jasper Quigley* was strong with them.

    *In the book of the Day of The Jackal, Sir Jasper Quigley is a Foreign Office mandarin who has been disastrously wrong in every policy he has ever espoused. Starting with Munich. But equally steadily promoted.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,062
    edited January 15
    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    I, for one, welcome the opportunity of a substantial header to exercise my facility for sustained reading, just to prove that I'm capable of reading something longer than a few hundred words.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,580
    edited January 15
    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    Keir now realising that once Trump takes over as POTUS next week it will be he who will largely be calling the shots on how the UK acts in the wider world beyond Europe
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    edited January 15

    Good header.

    These multiple part-time roles are clearly an issue in both the public and private sector, as with the example of Rick Haythornthwaite that Cyclefree gives. I am also reminded of Elon Musk, who is CEO and chief engineer of SpaceX, CEO and product architect of Tesla, CTO and executive chairman of Twitter, president of the charitable Musk Foundation, and co-running the Presidential Advisory Commission known as DOGE, while spending 14 hours a day tweeting.

    Seems to get quite a lot done, tho, our Elon

    Eg in between tweets he manages to fire up more space rockets than any nation on earth, in all history. Also he’s building an AI to rival OpenAI. And he runs one of the world’s biggest car companies. And he’s possibly putting humans on Mars. And he’s taking giant steps towards the first human-machine hybrid with Neuralink. But still, he’s obviously a fool, he tweets, blah blah, says total no-mark centrist twat in north London

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    Maybe the Mauritius government is even more incompetent than the UK one at negotiating.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Perhaps a new CCRC remit, with its members getting a bonus for every prisoner exonerated rather than being concerned with protecting the system.

    The Guardian, 2056

    "We are into the third day of the enquiry into the actions of CCRC. To day we are hearing evidence from lawyers for the prosecutors of Adolph Himmler Hitler. The new-fascist terrorist, who legally changed his name from Paul Pacton, was convicted of terrorism on the basis of 386 pieces of forensic evidence, his public manifesto and 17 eye witness to his crimes.

    The counsel for the CCRC admits that none of this evidence was shown to be problematic and declared that setting him free on the basis that the prosecutors eyes were a bit close together was sound legal reasoning. They further denied that the bonus per prisoner exonerated was in any way connected with the case."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Flowed pretty well, I thought.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    kinabalu said:

    That sounds pathetic. I think one problem is that many of these figurehead types whose main role is to "chair" things have exactly that skill and no other. They look the part, have a bit of a presence and a voice that carries, have a general but not special intelligence, have mastered smooth professional-speak, and they have connections because they are good at networking. Then it snowballs for them, you get one gig, appear to be just the ticket, you get another etc. And so long as nothing goes seriously and publicly wrong, all is fine. When it does, as the Header says, that is when you find out what they're made of and quite often it's nothing much.

    NU10K - Divine Right To Rule for the 21st century.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617

    Good header.

    These multiple part-time roles are clearly an issue in both the public and private sector, as with the example of Rick Haythornthwaite that Cyclefree gives. I am also reminded of Elon Musk, who is CEO and chief engineer of SpaceX, CEO and product architect of Tesla, CTO and executive chairman of Twitter, president of the charitable Musk Foundation, and co-running the Presidential Advisory Commission known as DOGE, while spending 14 hours a day tweeting.

    He's one of the few that can walk and chew gum at the same time. Helen Pitcher ? Less so.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    Keir now realising that once Trump takes over as POTUS next week it will be he who will largely be calling the shots on how the UK acts in the wider world beyond Europe
    What, even though we've taken back control?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707
    edited January 15
    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Word limits have varied over time. OGH used to impose a limit of around 800 words. As Cyclefree expanded, her articles started to come in at around the 1,200 mark and was teased on length. Viewcode then brought in one at around 1,400 words and the debate intensified. Then Ydoethur(?) got one published at 1,800 words and the debate ceased. At approx 1,118 words this article "Pitched Out" is well within three of those four limits.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Flowed pretty well, I thought.
    Yes, actually I may have been a bit hasty, and apologies to @Cyclefree (I’ve never complained about her eloquence, merely her prolixity)

    Some of these examples, while not being totally germane, are quite startling. So perhaps the fine detail is justified?

    Still reads like a PB Sunday threader, rather than weekday clickbait
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Pulpstar said:

    Good header.

    These multiple part-time roles are clearly an issue in both the public and private sector, as with the example of Rick Haythornthwaite that Cyclefree gives. I am also reminded of Elon Musk, who is CEO and chief engineer of SpaceX, CEO and product architect of Tesla, CTO and executive chairman of Twitter, president of the charitable Musk Foundation, and co-running the Presidential Advisory Commission known as DOGE, while spending 14 hours a day tweeting.

    He's one of the few that can walk and chew gum at the same time. Helen Pitcher ? Less so.
    Actual evidence of the Musk multitasking exists - https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1849914261482652113
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    edited January 15
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Flowed pretty well, I thought.
    Yes, actually I may have been a bit hasty, and apologies to @Cyclefree (I’ve never complained about her eloquence, merely her prolixity)

    Some of these examples, while not being totally germane, are quite startling. So perhaps the fine detail is justified?

    Still reads like a PB Sunday threader, rather than weekday clickbait
    I disagree worth you here; it works for me. And takes only a couple of minutes to read.
    But yes, give her upcoming book a good going over.

    (Maybe Haythorthwaite could have ended up on the cutting room floor - a deserved fate.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Word limits have varied over time. OGH used to impose a limit of around 800 words. As Cyclefree expanded, her articles started to come in at around the 1,200 mark and was teased on length. Viewcode then brought in one at around 1,400 words and the debate intensified. Then Ydoethur(?) got one published at 1,800 words and the debate ceased. At approx 1,118 words this article "Pitched Out" is well within three of those four limits.
    Are you suggesting I got one published at just shy of 2000?

    Really, how could you say such a thing?

    There were two of them.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,505

    Chagos is the Suez crisis in reverse. Maybe it will have a similarly dramatic effect on British foreign policy.

    Suez:

    Britain - We will assert our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Chagos

    Britain - We will give up our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Where does Trump's assertion of control over strategic territory in Panama and Greenland sit in the Suez stakes?
  • Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,482
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Flowed pretty well, I thought.
    Yes, actually I may have been a bit hasty, and apologies to @Cyclefree (I’ve never complained about her eloquence, merely her prolixity)

    Some of these examples, while not being totally germane, are quite startling. So perhaps the fine detail is justified?

    Still reads like a PB Sunday threader, rather than weekday clickbait
    I wrote it in 20 mins before dinner just after I learnt of Pitcher's resignation.

    I specifically wanted to make the point about the NatWest and PO Chairs. This case is not a one-off. It's endemic, entitled & one of the reasons we keep having such badly run organisations.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    That sounds pathetic. I think one problem is that many of these figurehead types whose main role is to "chair" things have exactly that skill and no other. They look the part, have a bit of a presence and a voice that carries, have a general but not special intelligence, have mastered smooth professional-speak, and they have connections because they are good at networking. Then it snowballs for them, you get one gig, appear to be just the ticket, you get another etc. And so long as nothing goes seriously and publicly wrong, all is fine. When it does, as the Header says, that is when you find out what they're made of and quite often it's nothing much.

    NU10K - Divine Right To Rule for the 21st century.
    Ok, Malmesbury, "NU10K" if we must.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,132
    edited January 15
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    TimS said:

    Chagos is the Suez crisis in reverse. Maybe it will have a similarly dramatic effect on British foreign policy.

    Suez:

    Britain - We will assert our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Chagos

    Britain - We will give up our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Where does Trump's assertion of control over strategic territory in Panama and Greenland sit in the Suez stakes?
    He's more Disraeli than Eden.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    TimS said:

    Chagos is the Suez crisis in reverse. Maybe it will have a similarly dramatic effect on British foreign policy.

    Suez:

    Britain - We will assert our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Chagos

    Britain - We will give up our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Where does Trump's assertion of control over strategic territory in Panama and Greenland sit in the Suez stakes?
    He's more Disraeli than Eden.
    He's more Napoleon in the Hundred Days than either.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,758
    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Not enough time on your hands? Its not a novel and sometimes having a more extended read is worth the time (5 minutes?) invested in reading it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    Chagos is the Suez crisis in reverse. Maybe it will have a similarly dramatic effect on British foreign policy.

    Suez:

    Britain - We will assert our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Chagos

    Britain - We will give up our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Where does Trump's assertion of control over strategic territory in Panama and Greenland sit in the Suez stakes?
    He's more Disraeli than Eden.
    He's more Napoleon in the Hundred Days than either.
    Surviving the lawfare against him and getting reelected is his escape from Elba?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    edited January 15
    Actually, I think Pitcher has a point:

    ..“It feels unfair that I, who was fully supportive of that reference to the Court of Appeal, have been singled out but the others have not been the subject of similar proceedings.”

    Malkinson said that Pitcher’s description of herself as a scapegoat was “shameless” but agreed that others should be accountable and called on all of the CCRC’s leadership to resign.

    “I am astonished that the outgoing chair claims that the CCRC was able to ‘resolve the situation’ and set me free. That work was done by my team at APPEAL, not the CCRC, who were considering rejecting my case for a third time...


    Not that she oughtn't to have been booted out unceremoniously, which she richly deserved, but the "others" involved should indeed be the subject of similar proceedings.

    But it's decidely rich for her to complain about the conclusions of a process she herself set up.

    Is she still chairing the Judicial Appointments Commission ?
    Heaven help the judiciary. She is unlikely to.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.

    In the case of the gold sale, the incompetence was getting rid of the Bank of England Gold Unit. A small department that managed the sale and purchase of gold for the Government. And which had made a profit for its entire existence.

    Rather than crashing the price of gold by dumping. The South African government (whose budget depends in a large part on the price from the sale of gold) asked why we waging economic warfare against gold producers!

    On the Post Office scandal, the courts (mostly) used the evidence they were given. The problem was the lying to the courts. And, to an extent, a law passed that made a presumption that computer systems were AOK.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Flowed pretty well, I thought.
    Yes, actually I may have been a bit hasty, and apologies to @Cyclefree (I’ve never complained about her eloquence, merely her prolixity)

    Some of these examples, while not being totally germane, are quite startling. So perhaps the fine detail is justified?

    Still reads like a PB Sunday threader, rather than weekday clickbait
    I wrote it in 20 mins before dinner just after I learnt of Pitcher's resignation.

    I specifically wanted to make the point about the NatWest and PO Chairs. This case is not a one-off. It's endemic, entitled & one of the reasons we keep having such badly run organisations.
    Yes, and I agree

    Ignore all my complaints. You can be a bit wordy, however articulate. But in this case it was justified (tho as an editor I would still have saved it for a weekend)

    Right, now to watch Vikings Valhalla. Back to the flints tomorrrow
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    edited January 15

    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    Chagos is the Suez crisis in reverse. Maybe it will have a similarly dramatic effect on British foreign policy.

    Suez:

    Britain - We will assert our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Chagos

    Britain - We will give up our control over strategic territory.
    US - No you won't.

    Where does Trump's assertion of control over strategic territory in Panama and Greenland sit in the Suez stakes?
    He's more Disraeli than Eden.
    He's more Napoleon in the Hundred Days than either.
    Surviving the lawfare against him and getting reelected is his escape from Elba?
    Making all the criminal cases be so delayed they have to be dropped due to pressure from him is an escape? Yes, it could be comparable.

    I wonder his Waterloo will be? The sack of Panama? Or would that be Morgan he can do?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    That sounds pathetic. I think one problem is that many of these figurehead types whose main role is to "chair" things have exactly that skill and no other. They look the part, have a bit of a presence and a voice that carries, have a general but not special intelligence, have mastered smooth professional-speak, and they have connections because they are good at networking. Then it snowballs for them, you get one gig, appear to be just the ticket, you get another etc. And so long as nothing goes seriously and publicly wrong, all is fine. When it does, as the Header says, that is when you find out what they're made of and quite often it's nothing much.

    NU10K - Divine Right To Rule for the 21st century.
    Ok, Malmesbury, "NU10K" if we must.
    Yes, we must

    The stereotype recurs, unfailingly.

    We need to label them. Ridicule them. Scapegoat them. Until they are a byword for the shameful incompetence they so adore.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935

    Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.

    I can answer one of those. Gordon Brown was held to task. We had a general election and he lost. That's how democracy is meant to work.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,852
    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    The Mauritius government may come to regret their attempt to squeeze every last penny out of the UK.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ELEVEN paragraphs. We all love Miss @Cyclefree - I’d vote for her as Prime Minister - but please, shove it in ChatGPT and reduce it to three?

    Ta muchly

    (Tho I do agree with the argument)

    Flowed pretty well, I thought.
    Yes, actually I may have been a bit hasty, and apologies to @Cyclefree (I’ve never complained about her eloquence, merely her prolixity)

    Some of these examples, while not being totally germane, are quite startling. So perhaps the fine detail is justified?

    Still reads like a PB Sunday threader, rather than weekday clickbait
    I wrote it in 20 mins before dinner just after I learnt of Pitcher's resignation.

    I specifically wanted to make the point about the NatWest and PO Chairs. This case is not a one-off. It's endemic, entitled & one of the reasons we keep having such badly run organisations.
    I recall that in the case of the trustees of Kids Company, it was stated that holding the legally liable Proper People legally liable for the legal liabilities they had knowingly and freely taken on would be bad.

    Because then, Proper People might not take on the job.
  • edited January 15

    Just a heads up for fans of Jason Beer KC.

    He is representing Greater Manchester Police in the Malkinson inquiry.

    He will try and defend & excuse the indefensible.

    And he was in the Post Office inquiry. I thought he was verging on unfair on many of the witnesses but he never even approached the issue of the courts and their handling of the prosecutions. It isn't diminishing the wrongness of the Post Office and Fujitsu in my view to point out that the courts were meant to determine guilt from innocence, the courts and the very well paid barristers were the actual miscarriers of justice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713
    ydoethur said:

    You wonder what job the egregious Ms Pitcher will get now.

    Ethical adviser to the Met, perhaps?

    Like every failson and faildaughter, she’ll fail sideways, at the very least.

    That resignation letter is embarrassing.
  • Local government devolution is a fascinating topic for those interested in politics at a local and regional level.

    Bournmouth, Christchurch and Poole unitary authority is having a vote this evening on which regional grouping it would like to join. The alternatives are to go East and join Hampshire and the Solent or to go West and join the Heart of Wessex (Wiltshire, Somerset and the rest of Dorset).

    As the Labour Government would like a complete map without any missed out areas, it would need to join one of the proposals as BCP is too small (400k population) to go it alone as a mayoral authority (proposed size at least 1.5m).

    Another interesting area is Milton Keynes, which has put forward a joint bid with Bedford and Luton. Last year there were serious discussions to include Northamptonshire in the proposal, but Northamptonshire has been left out at the last minute.

    Some areas in the forefront of change will be allowed not to have county council elections in May 2025.

    My local area Hertfordshire (population 1.2m) appears to be a bit small to meet the criteria of being a mayoral authority, but it is running out of next door neighbours to join up (unless it could persuade Harlow and Uttlesford to leave Essex).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.

    I can answer one of those. Gordon Brown was held to task. We had a general election and he lost. That's how democracy is meant to work.
    And tragically, all he was left with was the vast sums of money that get thrown at ex-PMs.

    Not exactly a visit from the Operative, is it?


    The Operative : You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords.
    Dr. Mathias : Well, unfortunately, I forgot to bring a sword.
    Dr. Mathias : [as the Operative pulls out his sword]...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713
    Taz said:

    "Andy Malkinson was convicted of a particularly brutal rape in 2004. His conviction was quashed in 2023 after two previous applications to the CCRC to take his case in 2009 and 2018 (when Helen Pitcher became its Chair) were turned down. It was quashed on the basis that there was clear forensic and other evidence in the hands of the authorities which proved his innocence, which had been in their possession for some considerable time and which should have been disclosed long before it was."

    Surely someone should be held to account for this.

    Misconduct in Public Office, Perverting the Course of Justice ?

    “Lessons have been learned. Pointing the finger of blame would serve no public interest. Actually, I think Helen Pitcher is the real victim here.”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    "Andy Malkinson was convicted of a particularly brutal rape in 2004. His conviction was quashed in 2023 after two previous applications to the CCRC to take his case in 2009 and 2018 (when Helen Pitcher became its Chair) were turned down. It was quashed on the basis that there was clear forensic and other evidence in the hands of the authorities which proved his innocence, which had been in their possession for some considerable time and which should have been disclosed long before it was."

    Surely someone should be held to account for this.

    Misconduct in Public Office, Perverting the Course of Justice ?

    “Lessons have been learned. Pointing the finger of blame would serve no public interest. Actually, I think Helen Pitcher is the real victim here.”
    How much do you want for your Golden Hello as chair of the CCRC?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,766
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    RobD said:

    Chagos deal won’t be signed until after Trumps’s inauguration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/01/15/starmer-drops-sign-chagos-deal-trump-administration/

    Sir Keir’s spokesman said on Wednesday: “We will only agree to a deal that is in the UK’s best interests and protect our national security.

    “It is obviously now right that the new US administration has the chance to consider this and discuss this once they are in office.”


    A significant change of tone.

    It will be fascinating to hear what has gone on here, in the fullness of time.
    Try hard to get a deal, give the Mauritians enough rope, regretfully conclude it's not possible. Status quo maintained, "international community" mollified.

    (No, me neither, but it would be a masterstroke.)
    If that is what has happened I would award medals to the conniving British diplomats that did it. However, when you look at the close relationships between a dolt like Starmer and his friend Philippe Sands KC, you realise a much more negative conclusion is the only one available

    Also, Starmer has burned an enormous amount of political capital to get this deal, and earned the scorn and hatred of people who couldn’t even place Diego Garcia on a map, so it makes no sense politically, either. He genuinely wanted this, and thought it was worth a lot of effort and all our money even if it made him even more loathsome
    You can say that about everything Starmer has done, that "it makes no sense politically".

    For the umpteenth time, Starmer is a lawyer not a politician. There was a legal problem with the status of the base, so Starmer feels obliged to resolve it. And remember, all this started under the Conservative government.

    From Hansard, Tuesday 13 December 2022:-

    The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs
    (James Cleverly)

    I can confirm that negotiations have begun. Officials from the UK and Mauritius met at the end of last month and had constructive discussions. The UK and Mauritius have reiterated that any agreement will ensure the continued effective operation of the joint UK-US defence facility on Diego Garcia, and we will be meeting again to continue negotiations shortly.

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-12-13/debates/BE7D0031-A290-4B94-8A55-DFEA3F1E6AA9/BritishIndianOceanTerritory#contribution-3946DC2A-6C88-4C02-9659-6E2BD3E8BDAA
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,079
    For those unfamiliar with the organization*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Cases_Review_Commission

    (*Me, for example.)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,129
    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    It’s like Chagos. A court says he should jump, and Starmer replies how high.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935

    Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.

    I can answer one of those. Gordon Brown was held to task. We had a general election and he lost. That's how democracy is meant to work.
    And tragically, all he was left with was the vast sums of money that get thrown at ex-PMs.

    Not exactly a visit from the Operative, is it?


    The Operative : You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords.
    Dr. Mathias : Well, unfortunately, I forgot to bring a sword.
    Dr. Mathias : [as the Operative pulls out his sword]...
    If people want to employ Brown because he was once PM, that's between them and him.

    I can't imagine any sensible system, i.e. one that can't be corrupted by partisan interests, whereby you punish ex-PMs for poor decisions. I'm not saying we should go full US Supreme Court decision and give our leaders immunity from prosecution for criminal acts, but it is the voters who judge political decisions and the punishment is you get voted out.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,908

    For those unfamiliar with the organization*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Cases_Review_Commission

    (*Me, for example.)

    *And Helen Pitcher, quite possibly
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    It’s like Chagos. A court says he should jump, and Starmer replies how high.
    It’s one breathtaking treachery after another. They are so brazen they almost defy belief
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    "Government will try to block Gerry Adams payout - PM"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jn1zg1ew9o
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713

    Excellent as ever @Cyclefree

    NU10K - “I may have presided over and been responsible for an utter mess which has ruined other’s lives but if you think I am going to be forced out without a fight and a gigantic pay-off, think again”.

    On point I would disagree with. The Lord Carrington resignation covered up the actions of permanent officials in the Foreign Office.

    In the run up to the invasion, they worked to wreck the career of the MI6 guy in Argentina. Who kept reporting the Argentine military build up. This went against the Departmental Policy - that negotaitions. with Argentina about handing over the Falklands were the way to go.

    In the end he left MI6. Apparently, the Foreign Office types found him a "divisive influence". Presumably he wasn't a Team Player, as well.

    The Sir Jasper Quigley* was strong with them.

    *In the book of the Day of The Jackal, Sir Jasper Quigley is a Foreign Office mandarin who has been disastrously wrong in every policy he has ever espoused. Starting with Munich. But equally steadily promoted.

    There’s one of Bernard Cornwell’s novels where a rising aristocratic star in the Foreign Office gets relentlessly promoted, because his skill is to tell his superiors what they wish to hear, while giving the impression he’s offering impartial advice. He turns out to be in the pay of the French, and an early advocate of a United Europe (I do think Cornwell was making a point, there. Sharpe is a blunt Essex man).

    You see it in all walks of life. People who lack any ability, save the all-important ones of ingratiating themselves with superiors, repeating orthodoxy, and doing down rivals whose focus is on trying to make things work effectively.

    It’s how you end up with military leaders, like Cadorna, Chelmsford, or Conrad, who would be better employed digging latrines.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,758
    Purge - comment would just invite vitriol
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,766
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    It’s like Chagos. A court says he should jump, and Starmer replies how high.
    The Prime Minister did say, to be fair, We are working on a draft remedial order and replacement legislation, and we will look at every conceivable way to prevent these types of cases from claiming damages—it is important that I say that on the record.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.

    I can answer one of those. Gordon Brown was held to task. We had a general election and he lost. That's how democracy is meant to work.
    And tragically, all he was left with was the vast sums of money that get thrown at ex-PMs.

    Not exactly a visit from the Operative, is it?


    The Operative : You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords.
    Dr. Mathias : Well, unfortunately, I forgot to bring a sword.
    Dr. Mathias : [as the Operative pulls out his sword]...
    If people want to employ Brown because he was once PM, that's between them and him.

    I can't imagine any sensible system, i.e. one that can't be corrupted by partisan interests, whereby you punish ex-PMs for poor decisions. I'm not saying we should go full US Supreme Court decision and give our leaders immunity from prosecution for criminal acts, but it is the voters who judge political decisions and the punishment is you get voted out.
    "Dear Ex-PM. Following a review of your fuck ups, we have decided that you owe the country 6 Trillion. To this end we will garnish the fees for after dinner speaking etc at 50% until the debt is paid."
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    Spot on again from Cyclefree.

    But, we should not be reacting to these miscarriages we should be looking, at a higher level as to what caused the events that led to the wrong. In this case surely the question is why was this person ever appointed to the position where she performed so poorly. There must have been some wrongdoing by the person who appointed her.

    Having said that another wrong, and one the present government front bench is relying upon to such an extent it has never even crossed their vile vindictive minds, is How are they going to be held to account. There has never been any serious attempt at holding Gordon Brown to task for selling off the gold. I know that even if he and Tony Blair were made bankrupt the money raised would be negligible against the loss. But if they had been then the present even more incompetent bench of chancers might have been put off seeking high office and so there would have been a monetary as well as emotional saving to the nation that would have been of a similar magnitude.

    The obvious example I have to say is the Post Office Horizon scandal. Now Mrs Jack Straw deserves all the punishment she will be dealt, but what about Jack Straw himself who appointed her and what about the courts who convicted these innocent people when the evidence against them was so manifestly concocted and untrue.

    What about the lawyers who advised them to plead guilty even though they were not in the hope of leniency ?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    "Andy Malkinson was convicted of a particularly brutal rape in 2004. His conviction was quashed in 2023 after two previous applications to the CCRC to take his case in 2009 and 2018 (when Helen Pitcher became its Chair) were turned down. It was quashed on the basis that there was clear forensic and other evidence in the hands of the authorities which proved his innocence, which had been in their possession for some considerable time and which should have been disclosed long before it was."

    Surely someone should be held to account for this.

    Misconduct in Public Office, Perverting the Course of Justice ?

    “Lessons have been learned. Pointing the finger of blame would serve no public interest. Actually, I think Helen Pitcher is the real victim here.”
    That isn't what Government is doing in this case. They were in the process of sacking Pitcher when she resigned.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,758
    Sean_F said:

    Excellent as ever @Cyclefree

    NU10K - “I may have presided over and been responsible for an utter mess which has ruined other’s lives but if you think I am going to be forced out without a fight and a gigantic pay-off, think again”.

    On point I would disagree with. The Lord Carrington resignation covered up the actions of permanent officials in the Foreign Office.

    In the run up to the invasion, they worked to wreck the career of the MI6 guy in Argentina. Who kept reporting the Argentine military build up. This went against the Departmental Policy - that negotaitions. with Argentina about handing over the Falklands were the way to go.

    In the end he left MI6. Apparently, the Foreign Office types found him a "divisive influence". Presumably he wasn't a Team Player, as well.

    The Sir Jasper Quigley* was strong with them.

    *In the book of the Day of The Jackal, Sir Jasper Quigley is a Foreign Office mandarin who has been disastrously wrong in every policy he has ever espoused. Starting with Munich. But equally steadily promoted.

    There’s one of Bernard Cornwell’s novels where a rising aristocratic star in the Foreign Office gets relentlessly promoted, because his skill is to tell his superiors what they wish to hear, while giving the impression he’s offering impartial advice. He turns out to be in the pay of the French, and an early advocate of a United Europe (I do think Cornwell was making a point, there. Sharpe is a blunt Essex man).

    You see it in all walks of life. People who lack any ability, save the all-important ones of ingratiating themselves with superiors, repeating orthodoxy, and doing down rivals whose focus is on trying to make things work effectively.

    It’s how you end up with military leaders, like Cadorna, Chelmsford, or Conrad, who would be better employed digging latrines.
    Sharpe is a blunt Essex man - surely Sharpe in the novels is a Londoner? He served in the South Essex (Prince of Wales Own) but maintained his Rifles Uniform.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713
    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    I thought Boris Johnson was shameless. Really, he was just a rookie.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713

    Sean_F said:

    Excellent as ever @Cyclefree

    NU10K - “I may have presided over and been responsible for an utter mess which has ruined other’s lives but if you think I am going to be forced out without a fight and a gigantic pay-off, think again”.

    On point I would disagree with. The Lord Carrington resignation covered up the actions of permanent officials in the Foreign Office.

    In the run up to the invasion, they worked to wreck the career of the MI6 guy in Argentina. Who kept reporting the Argentine military build up. This went against the Departmental Policy - that negotaitions. with Argentina about handing over the Falklands were the way to go.

    In the end he left MI6. Apparently, the Foreign Office types found him a "divisive influence". Presumably he wasn't a Team Player, as well.

    The Sir Jasper Quigley* was strong with them.

    *In the book of the Day of The Jackal, Sir Jasper Quigley is a Foreign Office mandarin who has been disastrously wrong in every policy he has ever espoused. Starting with Munich. But equally steadily promoted.

    There’s one of Bernard Cornwell’s novels where a rising aristocratic star in the Foreign Office gets relentlessly promoted, because his skill is to tell his superiors what they wish to hear, while giving the impression he’s offering impartial advice. He turns out to be in the pay of the French, and an early advocate of a United Europe (I do think Cornwell was making a point, there. Sharpe is a blunt Essex man).

    You see it in all walks of life. People who lack any ability, save the all-important ones of ingratiating themselves with superiors, repeating orthodoxy, and doing down rivals whose focus is on trying to make things work effectively.

    It’s how you end up with military leaders, like Cadorna, Chelmsford, or Conrad, who would be better employed digging latrines.
    Sharpe is a blunt Essex man - surely Sharpe in the novels is a Londoner? He served in the South Essex (Prince of Wales Own) but maintained his Rifles Uniform.
    At the time he was born, East London outside the city walls, was a part of Essex.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810

    "Government will try to block Gerry Adams payout - PM"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jn1zg1ew9o

    It's ironic that Starmer should be the person in charge when the whole paradigm of international law, human rights and 'soft power' implodes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Sean_F said:

    Excellent as ever @Cyclefree

    NU10K - “I may have presided over and been responsible for an utter mess which has ruined other’s lives but if you think I am going to be forced out without a fight and a gigantic pay-off, think again”.

    On point I would disagree with. The Lord Carrington resignation covered up the actions of permanent officials in the Foreign Office.

    In the run up to the invasion, they worked to wreck the career of the MI6 guy in Argentina. Who kept reporting the Argentine military build up. This went against the Departmental Policy - that negotaitions. with Argentina about handing over the Falklands were the way to go.

    In the end he left MI6. Apparently, the Foreign Office types found him a "divisive influence". Presumably he wasn't a Team Player, as well.

    The Sir Jasper Quigley* was strong with them.

    *In the book of the Day of The Jackal, Sir Jasper Quigley is a Foreign Office mandarin who has been disastrously wrong in every policy he has ever espoused. Starting with Munich. But equally steadily promoted.

    There’s one of Bernard Cornwell’s novels where a rising aristocratic star in the Foreign Office gets relentlessly promoted, because his skill is to tell his superiors what they wish to hear, while giving the impression he’s offering impartial advice. He turns out to be in the pay of the French, and an early advocate of a United Europe (I do think Cornwell was making a point, there. Sharpe is a blunt Essex man).

    You see it in all walks of life. People who lack any ability, save the all-important ones of ingratiating themselves with superiors, repeating orthodoxy, and doing down rivals whose focus is on trying to make things work effectively.

    It’s how you end up with military leaders, like Cadorna, Chelmsford, or Conrad, who would be better employed digging latrines.
    That's an appalling suggestion.

    A latrine dug by Cadorna would fail utterly, 11 times in a row, in the same place, and kill vast numbers of people doing it.

    Chelmsford would fuck up the initial khazi. Subsequently he would dig fairly usable ones.

    Conrad would design an epic shitter. Then fuck up the execution of it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    Local government devolution is a fascinating topic for those interested in politics at a local and regional level.

    Bournmouth, Christchurch and Poole unitary authority is having a vote this evening on which regional grouping it would like to join. The alternatives are to go East and join Hampshire and the Solent or to go West and join the Heart of Wessex (Wiltshire, Somerset and the rest of Dorset).

    As the Labour Government would like a complete map without any missed out areas, it would need to join one of the proposals as BCP is too small (400k population) to go it alone as a mayoral authority (proposed size at least 1.5m).

    Another interesting area is Milton Keynes, which has put forward a joint bid with Bedford and Luton. Last year there were serious discussions to include Northamptonshire in the proposal, but Northamptonshire has been left out at the last minute.

    Some areas in the forefront of change will be allowed not to have county council elections in May 2025.

    My local area Hertfordshire (population 1.2m) appears to be a bit small to meet the criteria of being a mayoral authority, but it is running out of next door neighbours to join up (unless it could persuade Harlow and Uttlesford to leave Essex).

    I'd be careful with that.
    There are tanks in Epping on permanent standby.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    I thought Boris Johnson was shameless. Really, he was just a rookie.
    It’s like Britain is being trolled by God. You thought Truss was bad? - TRY REEVES. You think Boris was shambolic and foolish? STARMER”S YER MAN
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    I thought Boris Johnson was shameless. Really, he was just a rookie.
    Is it just me, or shouldn't the Attorney General have to recuse himself from everything to do with a possible payout to an important ex-client?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    That sounds pathetic. I think one problem is that many of these figurehead types whose main role is to "chair" things have exactly that skill and no other. They look the part, have a bit of a presence and a voice that carries, have a general but not special intelligence, have mastered smooth professional-speak, and they have connections because they are good at networking. Then it snowballs for them, you get one gig, appear to be just the ticket, you get another etc. And so long as nothing goes seriously and publicly wrong, all is fine. When it does, as the Header says, that is when you find out what they're made of and quite often it's nothing much.

    NU10K - Divine Right To Rule for the 21st century.
    Ok, Malmesbury, "NU10K" if we must.
    Yes, we must

    The stereotype recurs, unfailingly.

    We need to label them. Ridicule them. Scapegoat them. Until they are a byword for the shameful incompetence they so adore.
    You've gone a bit 'Cultural Revolution' there.

    Put them all into call centre work - teach some humility!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    dixiedean said:

    Local government devolution is a fascinating topic for those interested in politics at a local and regional level.

    Bournmouth, Christchurch and Poole unitary authority is having a vote this evening on which regional grouping it would like to join. The alternatives are to go East and join Hampshire and the Solent or to go West and join the Heart of Wessex (Wiltshire, Somerset and the rest of Dorset).

    As the Labour Government would like a complete map without any missed out areas, it would need to join one of the proposals as BCP is too small (400k population) to go it alone as a mayoral authority (proposed size at least 1.5m).

    Another interesting area is Milton Keynes, which has put forward a joint bid with Bedford and Luton. Last year there were serious discussions to include Northamptonshire in the proposal, but Northamptonshire has been left out at the last minute.

    Some areas in the forefront of change will be allowed not to have county council elections in May 2025.

    My local area Hertfordshire (population 1.2m) appears to be a bit small to meet the criteria of being a mayoral authority, but it is running out of next door neighbours to join up (unless it could persuade Harlow and Uttlesford to leave Essex).

    I'd be careful with that.
    There are tanks in Epping on permanent standby.
    Correction. One tank.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    An exceptionally poor decision from the government not to appeal what is very likely a winnable case for them, in any event.

    If there's also a potential conflict of interest, then still worse.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    That sounds pathetic. I think one problem is that many of these figurehead types whose main role is to "chair" things have exactly that skill and no other. They look the part, have a bit of a presence and a voice that carries, have a general but not special intelligence, have mastered smooth professional-speak, and they have connections because they are good at networking. Then it snowballs for them, you get one gig, appear to be just the ticket, you get another etc. And so long as nothing goes seriously and publicly wrong, all is fine. When it does, as the Header says, that is when you find out what they're made of and quite often it's nothing much.

    NU10K - Divine Right To Rule for the 21st century.
    Ok, Malmesbury, "NU10K" if we must.
    Yes, we must

    The stereotype recurs, unfailingly.

    We need to label them. Ridicule them. Scapegoat them. Until they are a byword for the shameful incompetence they so adore.
    You've gone a bit 'Cultural Revolution' there.

    Put them all into call centre work - teach some humility!

    Luck runs out

    Crawl from the wreckage one more time
    Horrific memory twists the mind
    Dark, rutted, cold and hard to turn
    Path of destruction, feel and burn
    Still life, incarnation
    Still life, infamy
    Hallucination, heresy
    Still, you run, what's to come? What's to be?

    'Cause we hunt you down without mercy
    Hunt you down all nightmare long
    Feel us breathe upon your face
    Feel us shift, every move we trace
    Hunt you down without mercy
    Hunt you down all nightmare long, yeah
    Luck runs out
    You crawl back in, but your luck runs out
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    It’s like Chagos. A court says he should jump, and Starmer replies how high.
    Is respect for the law a yesterday thing in a politician now then?

    I know Donald "Felonius Maximus" Trump won on Nov 5th but still.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    edited January 15
    kinabalu said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    It’s like Chagos. A court says he should jump, and Starmer replies how high.
    Is respect for the law a yesterday thing in a politician now then?

    I know Donald "Felonius Maximus" Trump won on Nov 5th but still.
    Respect for the law is one thing. Simply doing whatever a court says, without argument or appeal, is another.

    Remember that "disrespecting the law" was used as an excuse not to question the Post Office convictions.

    Edit: Do you mean "Maximus Scelestus"??
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    Purge - comment would just invite vitriol

    It’s utterly bewildering that after all these years people are still fool enough to think it’s OK to celebrate pineapple on pizza.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707

    "Government will try to block Gerry Adams payout - PM"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jn1zg1ew9o

    It's ironic that Starmer should be the person in charge when the whole paradigm of international law, human rights and 'soft power' implodes.
    Good point. He's a lawyer in a world of kings, autocrats and despots. He'll get very upset that they aren't obeying the rules but won't/can't stop them.

    During Trump 1, two leaders did surprisingly well: Mexico and Japan. The Japanese PM sucked up like crazy (learning golf so he could play with Trump), the Mexico PM was blunter. But both took care to root their arguments in realpolitik and it worked. I've characterised the Russians as "brutal realists" and similarly for Trump: it's transactional and you have to give them something, even if that "something" is the removal of a credible threat.

    For Starmer, being nice, or lawful, or appealing to their better nature isn't relevant to these discussions (and will lead to their contempt). He may simply not have the skillset to deal with such disinterested hatred.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    viewcode said:

    "Government will try to block Gerry Adams payout - PM"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jn1zg1ew9o

    It's ironic that Starmer should be the person in charge when the whole paradigm of international law, human rights and 'soft power' implodes.
    Good point. He's a lawyer in a world of kings, autocrats and despots. He'll get very upset that they aren't obeying the rules but won't/can't stop them.

    During Trump 1, two leaders did surprisingly well: Mexico and Japan. The Japanese PM sucked up like crazy (learning golf so he could play with Trump), the Mexico PM was blunter. But both took care to root their arguments in realpolitik and it worked. I've characterised the Russians as "brutal realists" and similarly for Trump: it's transactional and you have to give them something, even if that "something" is the removal of a credible threat.

    For Starmer, being nice, or lawful, or appealing to their better nature isn't relevant to these discussions (and will lead to their contempt). He may simply not have the skillset to deal with such disinterested hatred.
    In Japanese culture there is a whole subsection on dealing, apparently politely, with people you hate and who hate you.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    ydoethur said:

    Purge - comment would just invite vitriol

    It’s utterly bewildering that after all these years people are still fool enough to think it’s OK to celebrate pineapple on pizza.
    My friend. These are people who think that the DfE is an authority on education. After having dealt with them, over years.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    edited January 15
    Here's a bit of research to excite Leon.

    Starch-rich plant foods 780,000 y ago: Evidence from Acheulian percussive stone tools
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2418661121
    In contrast to animal foods, wild plants often require long, multistep processing techniques that involve significant cognitive skills and advanced toolkits to perform. These costs are thought to have hindered how hominins used these foods and delayed their adoption into our diets. Through the analysis of starch grains preserved on basalt anvils and percussors, we demonstrate that a wide variety of plants were processed by Middle Pleistocene hominins at the site of Gesher Benot Ya’aqov in Israel, at least 780,000 y ago. These results further indicate the advanced cognitive abilities of our early ancestors, including their ability to collect plants from varying distances and from a wide range of habitats and to mechanically process them using percussive tools...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,758
    I know woke is driven by exclusion (just as the average member of the public gets used to the 'correct' terms and words to use those words and terms move on, and you get subject to opprobrium for incorrect language).

    But can anyone pinpoint when EDI became DEI? And does anyone other than me have an issue with this as it is rather adjacent to the Latin for God?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906

    I have to admire the grace of Andy Malkinson.

    If I was locked up for so long for a crime I didn’t commit and my parents died knowing my name wasn’t cleared I would go all Michael Douglas in Falling Down upon release.

    I think you mean Get Pitcher.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    I have to admire the grace of Andy Malkinson.

    If I was locked up for so long for a crime I didn’t commit and my parents died knowing my name wasn’t cleared I would go all Michael Douglas in Falling Down upon release.

    I was thinking more "Law Abiding Citizen" - but yes.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,505

    I have to admire the grace of Andy Malkinson.

    If I was locked up for so long for a crime I didn’t commit and my parents died knowing my name wasn’t cleared I would go all Michael Douglas in Falling Down upon release.

    I thought that on the Today programme this morning. He is also courageous putting this out there repeatedly in public. He is doubtless always dealing with the no smoke without fire reflex. Simply being known as someone who was wrongly convicted of a violent rape will mean in some people's eyes that he is always treated with suspicion, no matter how clear cut the evidence is.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,482
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    This government honestly leaves me speechless


    “The Attorney General will not say whether he stands to gain financially if the government pay out to Gerry Adams.

    Nor has he said whether he was involved in decisions which benefit his former client.

    Remarkable.”

    https://x.com/robertjenrick/status/1879522224551657973?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    For a start, who knew that our Labour Attorney General was Gerry Adams’ lawyer?

    An exceptionally poor decision from the government not to appeal what is very likely a winnable case for them, in any event.

    If there's also a potential conflict of interest, then still worse.
    It's the perception of possible bias and a potential conflict of interest which are the big problems. The A-G is meant to be the lawyer advising the government. He cannot do that job in a situation where he cannot or will not say that he might benefit if his former client benefits from a government decision. Especially when that decision relates to whether or not to appeal a ruling which currently benefits his client.

    He has to recuse himself.

    Then there is the politics of it all. No money for any number of deserving causes. But money for a terrorist leader .....
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