Not Gideon, George or Osborne, and the possessive is "Gideon's", not "Gideons" (wouldn't have pointed this out, but you do it twice). If you expressly support a party widely perceived as being made up of borderline-illiterate fruitcakes, you need - for the sake of that party - to pay attention to these details.
LOL, in my opinion this appears to be a textbook example of playing the man not the ball:
From Wikipedia: "George Gideon Oliver Osborne,[1] MP (born Gideon Oliver Osborne; xx xx 1971)....."
His real name is/was Gideon.
And as he chose to change it by deed poll you should do him the courtesy of calling him by the name that he wants to be called.
Why is he ashamed to use the name given by his parents ? Why is he so insecure ?
He didn't look insecure on Wednesday.
As I understand it he changed it at age 13, so it is a reasonable guess that he felt vulnerable to the comments of contemporaries at school. I speculate, but today we would categorise that as bullying, which I don't want to condone.
But, you tell me, doesn't "bullying" toughen up the old boy in a public school ? Was he a weakling then ?
I would answer that if it was worth answering.
Go and spend a couple of months with people who have suffered bullying, and you wouldn't be such a glib socialist.
Not Gideon, George or Osborne, and the possessive is "Gideon's", not "Gideons" (wouldn't have pointed this out, but you do it twice). If you expressly support a party widely perceived as being made up of borderline-illiterate fruitcakes, you need - for the sake of that party - to pay attention to these details.
LOL, in my opinion this appears to be a textbook example of playing the man not the ball:
From Wikipedia: "George Gideon Oliver Osborne,[1] MP (born Gideon Oliver Osborne; xx xx 1971)....."
His real name is/was Gideon.
And as he chose to change it by deed poll you should do him the courtesy of calling him by the name that he wants to be called.
Why is he ashamed to use the name given by his parents ? Why is he so insecure ?
He didn't look insecure on Wednesday.
As I understand it he changed it at age 13, so it is a reasonable guess that he felt vulnerable to the comments of contemporaries at school. I speculate, but today we would categorise that as bullying, which I don't want to condone.
But, you tell me, doesn't "bullying" toughen up the old boy in a public school ? Was he a weakling then ?
Anyone would think that you're rattled by tonight's polls.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
I just don't get this Gideon nonsense. He changed his given name, big deal. Banging on about Gideon or "Gids" as I have seen it seems to be done to demean the man with what sounds like a Jewish name.
Don't demean him because he had an unusual name. Demean him because he is a Tory.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
Correct. But they lost in 1997 and 2001. In 2005, they would have lost in seats. So, this idea, that without Scotland Labour will be "amputated" can only be written a B-grade novel writer.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
Do you think Cam will just sit still for 9 months ? There will be EVEL by the time of the GE - Labour are doomed - UNITE need to get their fingers out because ED is hopeless.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
First you tell us No will win 60/40, then, four minutes later, you tell us it doesn't matter if Yes wins, Labour will still win in England, even though every Scots voter - after a YES - will elect an SNP MP to negotiate the divorce.
As I said, I am sure you are in denial. The loss of Labour's heartland and all its MPs and history and money and energy is so appalling, you cannot bear to think through the implications.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
If ( huge huge if) Scotland votes yes, it will recalibrate everything at a stroke. I would expect the SNP to nigh on sweep the board in May 2015 in Scotland, if indeed Scotland takes part, which alone will hole Milliband below the waterline, and I doubt Labour would be seen as the best bet south of Hadrian's Wall to get the best deal for rUK in separation negotiations, which would dominate the next Parliament, given their Scots roots and given that it would be their devolution policy which had led to the destruction of the UK within 17 years of its introduction.
I still expect a closeish no vote personally. But I may be wrong, and am personally wholly neutral as to the outcome,
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
Do you think Cam will just sit still for 9 months ? There will be EVEL by the time of the GE - Labour are doomed - UNITE need to get their fingers out because ED is hopeless.
By the way, we've just had the ultimate hung parliament in the PB Diplomacy game - a 7-way draw! Hurst Llama (Turkey) and Monty (Austria) made a good push for a two-way win, initially rolling over most of Corporeal's Italy, while David Roe (Germany), Geoff M (France) and Pulpstar (Russia) all ganged up on me (England). I played for time, Russia was attacked by Austria and switched sides a couple of times to stay alive, and then Austria hit Germany, reducing him to a single centre. Then GeoffM dropped out (by accident) and AndyJS stepped into French shoes, and all five of us formed a popular front to stave off the AT threat and force a near-stalemate.
Lots of resilience all round and the result was probably fair, even though there was still some play in it. Thanks all!
I am not sure what England-based Labour supporters are supposed to do in the face of growing support for Scottish independence, according to SeanT. Is it just despair and give up?
It seems a stretch that people who dislike the Tories in England will decide to vote Tory because Scotland votes Yes. Presumably UK-wide polls already reflect growing SNP support in Scotland. Tonights polls surely indicate, once again, the resilience of the Labour vote.
Labour outpolled the Tories in 1997 and 2001, but Ed M isn't Tony Blair mark 2. Labour's rejection of Blairites make it harder to win enough seats in England.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
If ( huge huge if) Scotland votes yes, it will recalibrate everything at a stroke. I would expect the SNP to nigh on sweep the board in May 2015 in Scotland, if indeed Scotland takes part, which alone will hole Milliband below the waterline, and I doubt Labour would be seen as the best bet south of Hadrian's Wall to get the best deal for rUK in separation negotiations, which would dominate the next Parliament, given their Scots roots and given that it would be their devolution policy which had led to the destruction of the UK within 17 years of its introduction.
I still expect a closeish no vote personally. But I may be wrong, and am personally wholly neutral as to the outcome,
Regarding the vote itself, I am totally neutral. Indeed I may have a slight sympathy towards the Scots. Particualrly, as they would want to stay within the EU.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Not so - I said after the first post-Budget polls that the Labour vote was stable but it was odd the Tories weren't getting a little bounce from all the good coverage. That's exactly what we're seeing today. I also said that I thought it would settle by next week. We'll soon know, eH?
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
Correct. But they lost in 1997 and 2001. In 2005, they would have lost in seats. So, this idea, that without Scotland Labour will be "amputated" can only be written a B-grade novel writer.
Not Gideon, George or Osborne, and the possessive is "Gideon's", not "Gideons" (wouldn't have pointed this out, but you do it twice). If you expressly support a party widely perceived as being made up of borderline-illiterate fruitcakes, you need - for the sake of that party - to pay attention to these details.
LOL, in my opinion this appears to be a textbook example of playing the man not the ball:
From Wikipedia: "George Gideon Oliver Osborne,[1] MP (born Gideon Oliver Osborne; xx xx 1971)....."
His real name is/was Gideon.
And as he chose to change it by deed poll you should do him the courtesy of calling him by the name that he wants to be called.
Why is he ashamed to use the name given by his parents ? Why is he so insecure ?
He didn't look insecure on Wednesday.
As I understand it he changed it at age 13, so it is a reasonable guess that he felt vulnerable to the comments of contemporaries at school. I speculate, but today we would categorise that as bullying, which I don't want to condone.
But, you tell me, doesn't "bullying" toughen up the old boy in a public school ? Was he a weakling then ?
Surby
In my experience, a public school boy is most unlikely to be bullied for having an unusual name.
The boys we inverted over the latrines and gave a hair wash were called Ed, tim, Jim, Tony and Len.
Far more likely that Gideon changed his name after being asked for ID at a Mecca Bingo Hall and refused entry on the grounds of that the ticket issuer couldn't pronounce his name.
I am not sure what England-based Labour supporters are supposed to do in the face of growing support for Scottish independence, according to SeanT. Is it just despair and give up?
It seems a stretch that people who dislike the Tories in England will decide to vote Tory because Scotland votes Yes. Presumably UK-wide polls already reflect growing SNP support in Scotland. Tonights polls surely indicate, once again, the resilience of the Labour vote.
Vote Tory for a better, more equal and less regulated country would be a start.
Your party was founded by a Scotsman, has been led by a Scotsman in recent times (Brown, Smith, etc), its greatest figures have often been Scottish men (and women) - from Cook to Dewar- and even now many of it senior figures are Scottish, Alexander, Murphy, et al.
After a YES vote? All gone. All gone. All gone for ever. All foreigners. Your party will take decades to recover, if it recovers at all. Calling this an amputation is actually underplaying the potential trauma.
BAD night for Labour.
I think you need to look at it from the point of view of economic left and cultural left. The cultural left might well be pleased with Scottish independence as they lose a large chunk of the remaining old labour social conservatism.
Look at the update at the top of the thread.. Labour are crapping themselves, brought about by overconfidence.
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
No will win 60 - 40.
So all the polls are lying? Right. OK.
When your party has been amputated at the hip by a YES, and is thereby excluded from power for a generation in England, we can point to this comment and say: that's why. Appalling Complacency.
In fact I think it is beyond complacency, the idea of losing Scotland is so horrific for Labourites they lurch into psychological denial. You simply cannot bear to think about it. But you need to think about it, or you will be mutilated.
I hate to tell you that even if there is a "Yes" vote, Scotland will not become independent immediately.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
Correct. But they lost in 1997 and 2001. In 2005, they would have lost in seats. So, this idea, that without Scotland Labour will be "amputated" can only be written a B-grade novel writer.
Are you trying to put words into my sentences. Where did I say Ed is clearly set for a landslide ? All I said was that Labour won England in 1997 and 2001 and was very close in 2005. I wrote that simply to puncture this argument that Labour can never win in England.
Every country rebalances itself. Labour lost power in Israel eventually. Congress likewise in India. The SNP will also lose power in Scotland. There is more than one party in it anyway.
By the way, we've just had the ultimate hung parliament in the PB Diplomacy game - a 7-way draw! Hurst Llama (Turkey) and Monty (Austria) made a good push for a two-way win, initially rolling over most of Corporeal's Italy, while David Roe (Germany), Geoff M (France) and Pulpstar (Russia) all ganged up on me (England). I played for time, Russia was attacked by Austria and switched sides a couple of times to stay alive, and then Austria hit Germany, reducing him to a single centre. Then GeoffM dropped out (by accident) and AndyJS stepped into French shoes, and all five of us formed a popular front to stave off the AT threat and force a near-stalemate.
Lots of resilience all round and the result was probably fair, even though there was still some play in it. Thanks all!
'a wooden pallet'. That part of the ocean is awash with rubbish; sea currents tend to drive it down there.
I didn't say that. A "conservative" Prime Minister did. I believe he must have had some basis to say so.
Tony Abbott's got half the Australian Airforce burning JetA1 flying zig zags over the Indian Ocean. If they don't find something, anything, soon, people in Oz are going to start querying the expenditure.
I am not sure what England-based Labour supporters are supposed to do in the face of growing support for Scottish independence, according to SeanT. Is it just despair and give up?
It seems a stretch that people who dislike the Tories in England will decide to vote Tory because Scotland votes Yes. Presumably UK-wide polls already reflect growing SNP support in Scotland. Tonights polls surely indicate, once again, the resilience of the Labour vote.
More Denial.
Of what? You are projecting your own hopes based on no shred of evidence. It is low-rent leftie wind-up stuff. You need a bit more to be taken seriously.
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
Nah. I don't expect that Scotland will vote no, or that Labour will face extinction if it does, or that galactic life would come to an end if we did.
I genuinely can't imagine what it's like to live a life in screaming capitals. Is it fun, perhaps in a scary sort of way?
By the way, we've just had the ultimate hung parliament in the PB Diplomacy game - a 7-way draw! Hurst Llama (Turkey) and Monty (Austria) made a good push for a two-way win, initially rolling over most of Corporeal's Italy, while David Roe (Germany), Geoff M (France) and Pulpstar (Russia) all ganged up on me (England). I played for time, Russia was attacked by Austria and switched sides a couple of times to stay alive, and then Austria hit Germany, reducing him to a single centre. Then GeoffM dropped out (by accident) and AndyJS stepped into French shoes, and all five of us formed a popular front to stave off the AT threat and force a near-stalemate.
Lots of resilience all round and the result was probably fair, even though there was still some play in it. Thanks all!
You are psychologically incapable of addressing the ramifications of a YES vote for Labour. As I said. Instead you talk about board games. Says it all.
Well obviously he's not going to talk about pensions!
So, Tory jubilation from two polls that will quickly subside, as Ukip continues to grow and lay the foundations for a party of the first rank.
Ukip have peaked and are on the sleazy slide. rUk not ready for a Koresh style cult - unlike Scotland.
On the contrary, I feel the Right is re-forming itself. There will be a new pro Europe Right [ the Winstonians ] and the anti Europe Right [ the Thatcherites ].
Have you noticed here in PB when the Right gets into a frenzy about repatriation of powers, getting out of the EU, how Nabavi, Avery, Fitalass et al get their heads down and go below the radar ?
Surbiton, SeanT Indeed, Attlee in 1945 and 1950 would have won in England, Wilson would have won in England in 1966 and Oct 1974 and Blair would have won all his elections in England. Only Heath in Feb '74 and Home in '64 of losing Tories would have won without Scotland.
If Scotland does defy the present polls and go for independence it could ironically revive the Scottish centre-right, with the right-wing of the SNP forming a new centre-right party with the remnants of the Scottish Tories. Indeed, the Tories actually won a majority in Scotland in 1955
Do you not have ANYTHING to say on the latest indyref poll, from ICM, no less?
No 46, Yes 39.
Your party is facing the serious possibility of EXTINCTION in September. Forget about the 2015 GE, Labour - so reliant on Scotland - is possibly going to have its heartland ripped away - all those Scots MPs, all that ideological energy, half your history, from Keir Hardie to Gordon Brown: everything.
Tell us more about Labour's *resilience*.
lol. You are staring into the abyss.
Nah. I don't expect that Scotland will vote no, or that Labour will face extinction if it does, or that galactic life would come to an end if we did.
I genuinely can't imagine what it's like to live a life in screaming capitals. Is it fun, perhaps in a scary sort of way?
"I genuinely can't imagine what it's like to live a life in screaming capitals. Is it fun, perhaps in a scary sort of way?"
Bad education ? Shurely shome fault of a Labour government ?
If Scotland does defy the present polls and go for independence it could ironically revive the Scottish centre-right, with the right-wing of the SNP forming a new centre-right party with the remnants of the Scottish Tories. Indeed, the Tories actually won a majority in Scotland in 1955
Not Gideon, George or Osborne, and the possessive is "Gideon's", not "Gideons" (wouldn't have pointed this out, but you do it twice). If you expressly support a party widely perceived as being made up of borderline-illiterate fruitcakes, you need - for the sake of that party - to pay attention to these details.
LOL, in my opinion this appears to be a textbook example of playing the man not the ball:
From Wikipedia: "George Gideon Oliver Osborne,[1] MP (born Gideon Oliver Osborne; xx xx 1971)....."
His real name is/was Gideon.
And as he chose to change it by deed poll you should do him the courtesy of calling him by the name that he wants to be called.
Why is he ashamed to use the name given by his parents ? Why is he so insecure ?
He didn't look insecure on Wednesday.
As I understand it he changed it at age 13, so it is a reasonable guess that he felt vulnerable to the comments of contemporaries at school. I speculate, but today we would categorise that as bullying, which I don't want to condone.
But, you tell me, doesn't "bullying" toughen up the old boy in a public school ? Was he a weakling then ?
Surby
In my experience, a public school boy is most unlikely to be bullied for having an unusual name.
The boys we inverted over the latrines and gave a hair wash were called Ed, tim, Jim, Tony and Len.
Far more likely that Gideon changed his name after being asked for ID at a Mecca Bingo Hall and refused entry on the grounds of that the ticket issuer couldn't pronounce his name.
Ha ha ! Somehow your answers are far more "persuasive" than the easily excitable Sean T.
Earlier, in the evening , I really was scared about you after "equal" turned out to be a , er..., lead for Labour !
Surbiton, SeanT Indeed, Attlee in 1945 and 1950 would have won in England, Wilson would have won in England in 1966 and Oct 1974 and Blair would have won all his elections in England. Only Heath in Feb '74 and Home in '64 of losing Tories would have won without Scotland.
The problem with that argument, HYUFD, is that had Home and Heath won in '64 and Feb '74 there almost certainly would never have been '66 and Oct '74 elections.
An interesting counterfactual would be what the subsequent colour of governments would have been. I would guess Labour would have taken over in '69 probably on a tired after four terms landslide similar to '97. Then run two or three terms to '78-9 or '82-'83.
If Scotland does defy the present polls and go for independence it could ironically revive the Scottish centre-right, with the right-wing of the SNP forming a new centre-right party with the remnants of the Scottish Tories. Indeed, the Tories actually won a majority in Scotland in 1955
That's right ! 1955 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes but again there would be a total recalibration. The Tories would rapidly cease to be seen as Home Counties outriders, the SNP would spilt into its economic parts and Scotland would have to pay for itself, meaning huge largesse via the State will really have to end ( at the least as oil winds down). Meaning a change in the Left too. Probably towards the centre.
Surbiton, SeanT Indeed, Attlee in 1945 and 1950 would have won in England, Wilson would have won in England in 1966 and Oct 1974 and Blair would have won all his elections in England. Only Heath in Feb '74 and Home in '64 of losing Tories would have won without Scotland.
Except that, like every other pb non-brainiac who addresses this question, you forget what losing Scotland would do to Labour's morale, and its party income, and its ideological self belief, given that so many of its leading figures and "finest" politicians are Scottish. You have to take ALL of them out of the equation with an indy Scotland. Expecting Labour to do as well without all this is like expecting Husain Bolt with one leg to match Husain Bolt with two.
Would this "amputee" Labour party have done so well over the years? Of course not.
That said, I reckon Labour would recover, as rUK rebalanced towards the right. But it would probably take them 10-15 years.
Not Gideon, George or Osborne, and the possessive is "Gideon's", not "Gideons" (wouldn't have pointed this out, but you do it twice). If you expressly support a party widely perceived as being made up of borderline-illiterate fruitcakes, you need - for the sake of that party - to pay attention to these details.
LOL, in my opinion this appears to be a textbook example of playing the man not the ball:
From Wikipedia: "George Gideon Oliver Osborne,[1] MP (born Gideon Oliver Osborne; xx xx 1971)....."
His real name is/was Gideon.
And as he chose to change it by deed poll you should do him the courtesy of calling him by the name that he wants to be called.
Why is he ashamed to use the name given by his parents ? Why is he so insecure ?
He didn't look insecure on Wednesday.
As I understand it he changed it at age 13, so it is a reasonable guess that he felt vulnerable to the comments of contemporaries at school. I speculate, but today we would categorise that as bullying, which I don't want to condone.
But, you tell me, doesn't "bullying" toughen up the old boy in a public school ? Was he a weakling then ?
Surby
In my experience, a public school boy is most unlikely to be bullied for having an unusual name.
The boys we inverted over the latrines and gave a hair wash were called Ed, tim, Jim, Tony and Len.
Far more likely that Gideon changed his name after being asked for ID at a Mecca Bingo Hall and refused entry on the grounds of that the ticket issuer couldn't pronounce his name.
Ha ha ! Somehow your answers are far more "persuasive" than the easily excitable Sean T.
Earlier, in the evening , I really was scared about you after "equal" turned out to be a , er..., lead for Labour !
It was Sky News over-egging the pudding.
Still, Surby, it was good to have a practice run. It's coming.
My guess is that it won't really level consistently until after the pay packets and salary slips have been absorbed through April.
Sir Roderick has it right that May is crossover month but we may get Basil with a long-sight sniper shot before May.
If Scotland does defy the present polls and go for independence it could ironically revive the Scottish centre-right, with the right-wing of the SNP forming a new centre-right party with the remnants of the Scottish Tories. Indeed, the Tories actually won a majority in Scotland in 1955
That's right ! 1955 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes but again there would be a total recalibration. The Tories would rapidly cease to be seen as Home Counties outriders, the SNP would spilt into its economic parts and Scotland would have to pay for itself, meaning huge largesse via the State will really have to end ( at the least as oil winds down). Meaning a change in the Left too. Probably towards the centre.
In reality, both the countries, Scotland and rUK will rebalance and political parties adjust their policies to attract the voters. In a democracy, it is rare that any side wins 55 - 45. More like 52-48 unless we are talking landslide years.
If Scotland does defy the present polls and go for independence it could ironically revive the Scottish centre-right, with the right-wing of the SNP forming a new centre-right party with the remnants of the Scottish Tories. Indeed, the Tories actually won a majority in Scotland in 1955
That's right ! 1955 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes but again there would be a total recalibration. The Tories would rapidly cease to be seen as Home Counties outriders, the SNP would spilt into its economic parts and Scotland would have to pay for itself, meaning huge largesse via the State will really have to end ( at the least as oil winds down). Meaning a change in the Left too. Probably towards the centre.
In reality, both the countries, Scotland and rUK will rebalance and political parties adjust their policies to attract the voters. In a democracy, it is rare that any side wins 55 - 45. More like 52-48 unless we are talking landslide years.
One of the local TV stations here just ran a documentary on Amelia Earhart.
Anything's better than CNN's 24/7 relentless live coverage of the flight 370 mystery, ignoring all else happening in the world, like Ukraine for example..
The latest theories are aliens, or it landed intact and sank immediately, hence no debris field.
Surbiton, SeanT Indeed, Attlee in 1945 and 1950 would have won in England, Wilson would have won in England in 1966 and Oct 1974 and Blair would have won all his elections in England. Only Heath in Feb '74 and Home in '64 of losing Tories would have won without Scotland.
Except that, like every other pb non-brainiac who addresses this question, you forget what losing Scotland would do to Labour's morale, and its party income, and its ideological self belief, given that so many of its leading figures and "finest" politicians are Scottish. You have to take ALL of them out of the equation with an indy Scotland. Expecting Labour to do as well without all this is like expecting Husain Bolt with one leg to match Husain Bolt with two.
Would this "amputee" Labour party have done so well over the years? Of course not.
That said, I reckon Labour would recover, as rUK rebalanced towards the right. But it would probably take them 10-15 years.
You're talking about the old Labour party. The people in the new one want to be like the Democrats in the US. They'll happily trade being more economically right if it means they can be more culturally left.
Oh dear, straight to playing the man not the ball with that insult. Here is a question for you, why the hell would anyone head to Prestwick if they could fly to London far quicker from anywhere else in Scotland, or better still just head to Edinburgh or Glasgow if they don't need to catch a connecting flight to a foreign destination? Prestwick is losing money because no one needs to go out of their way to head there to catch a flight to anywhere.
FPT... Fitalass, I know you are not very bright , however Prestwick might suit people who live well south of Aberdeen. I can see you driving through Aberdeen to get to Glasgow airport but doubt you are stupid enough to keep on till Prestwick. However despite you doubting it there are people south of Glasgow who may find Prestwick rather local. Suit me better than driving to Aberdeen for instance, or London.
Surbiton, SeanT Indeed, Attlee in 1945 and 1950 would have won in England, Wilson would have won in England in 1966 and Oct 1974 and Blair would have won all his elections in England. Only Heath in Feb '74 and Home in '64 of losing Tories would have won without Scotland.
Except that, like every other pb non-brainiac who addresses this question, you forget what losing Scotland would do to Labour's morale, and its party income, and its ideological self belief, given that so many of its leading figures and "finest" politicians are Scottish. You have to take ALL of them out of the equation with an indy Scotland. Expecting Labour to do as well without all this is like expecting Husain Bolt with one leg to match Husain Bolt with two.
Would this "amputee" Labour party have done so well over the years? Of course not.
That said, I reckon Labour would recover, as rUK rebalanced towards the right. But it would probably take them 10-15 years.
You're talking about the old Labour party. The people in the new one want to be like the Democrats in the US. They'll happily trade being more economically right if it means they can be more culturally left.
Actually just realised it's the LDs in England who'd be bleeped by Scottish independence.
SeanT Don't forget, many Tories are Scots too, from Malcolm Rifkind and Liam Fox and Michael Forsyth, to of course Douglas-Home (who ironically would have beaten the English Wilson in '64 without his homeland) and Bonar Law.
One of the local TV stations here just ran a documentary on Amelia Earhart.
Anything's better than CNN's 24/7 relentless live coverage of the flight 370 mystery, ignoring all else happening in the world, like Ukraine for example..
The latest theories are aliens, or it landed intact and sank immediately, hence no debris field.
Yes, it really is that bad.
If it crashed nearer Diego Garcia they could say he was gonna take out an aircraft carrier.
AveryLP Indeed. Of course had Heath won in February 1974 there would never have been a Thatcher leadership of the Tories or Premiership. So there you go, it was Scotland which gave us Maggie!
SeanT Don't forget, many Tories are Scots too, from Malcolm Rifkind and Liam Fox and Michael Forsyth, to of course Douglas-Home (who ironically would have beaten the English Wilson in '64 without his homeland) and Bonar Law.
And Michael Gove.
It would be interesting to know the number of Scots MPs for non Scottish seats each party has.
As SeanT forecasts the left's bleak future in the rUK, it's worth remembering his No being just about home and dry predictions that were such a regular part of the furniture on here up until, er, tonight.
SeanT Don't forget, many Tories are Scots too, from Malcolm Rifkind and Liam Fox and Michael Forsyth, to of course Douglas-Home (who ironically would have beaten the English Wilson in '64 without his homeland) and Bonar Law.
And Michael Gove.
It would be interesting to know the number of Scots MPs for non Scottish seats each party has.
The LDs don't have any. 2 of their Welsh and 1 Scottish of their Scottish MPs are English.
I have to agree with you and Audreyanne StJohn. Coalition Government with the Libdems, a strong economic recovery and leading the Better Together campaign as the big bad bogey man up here in Scotland while UKIP run a high profile extreme right wing collection service. Throw in Ed Miliband and Ed Balls running the Labour party, and its its combination that Carlsberg couldn't have come up with if they had tried to come up with a successful advertising campaign to detox the Conservative party. The last budget was the cherry on the cake when you see Labour scrabbling around two days later to embrace it.
"Torybingo will alter the political narrative like the Liam Byrne letter."
Cretins.
Who said that?
Who is a cretin?
Erm, it was a thread leader and I thought at the time it was very silly but decided to keep my counsel.
Really it is quite amazing how few on pb pay any attention to political history. Governments usually dip mid-term and with a fixed term there has been none of the usual Election fever to get the public worked up into firming their vote. The fact that the Cons and Lab could be almost neck and neck now with the opposition in the mid-30's, an incredibly powerful economic narrative and another storming budget this time next year means this one is heading Conservative.
Oh and hung parliaments usually occur with a strong third party vote. There won't be.
Having already had a number of wagers on just such an outcome in 2015 with tim from a couple of years ago, I am more convinced than ever that this will indeed be the case.
SO Indeed, forgot Gove. Don''t forget Adam Smith, a key Tory economist was also a Scot (Thatcher carried a copy of his 'Wealth of Nations' in her handbag. But of course, the fundamentals won't change, if the Tories or Labour move too far from the centre they will lose more often than not, whether under the present union or one without our Scottish cousins!
Surbiton, SeanT Indeed, Attlee in 1945 and 1950 would have won in England, Wilson would have won in England in 1966 and Oct 1974 and Blair would have won all his elections in England. Only Heath in Feb '74 and Home in '64 of losing Tories would have won without Scotland.
Except that, like every other pb non-brainiac who addresses this question, you forget what losing Scotland would do to Labour's morale, and its party income, and its ideological self belief, given that so many of its leading figures and "finest" politicians are Scottish. You have to take ALL of them out of the equation with an indy Scotland. Expecting Labour to do as well without all this is like expecting Husain Bolt with one leg to match Husain Bolt with two.
Would this "amputee" Labour party have done so well over the years? Of course not.
That said, I reckon Labour would recover, as rUK rebalanced towards the right. But it would probably take them 10-15 years.
You're talking about the old Labour party. The people in the new one want to be like the Democrats in the US. They'll happily trade being more economically right if it means they can be more culturally left.
Actually just realised it's the LDs in England who'd be bleeped by Scottish independence.
Or maybe a fight to the death over who gets to play West Wing.
Ahhhh, tis good to be back. So, basically, evidence of a move away from the Lib/kipper third party option to a straight establishment fight. I expect this to continue as the reality of five years of govt becomes real. Labour are in Cams shoes ca 2009, they must start giving an alternative vision with actual policy, Cam and co need to work on a two prong targeting Kipper unconvinceds and 'workers U.K.' There might be an actual slaughter in 2015, but I doubt the skills are there to grab it. Early prediction - 3 Tory Scot seats 2015 - existing, West ab and Roxborough etc, outside shot at Mings Bling
Indeed, more generally the poll confirms the degree to which Labour support is potentially the weak link in the unionist camp; once the Don’t Knows are excluded no less than 34% of those who backed Labour in 2011 say they will vote Yes.
Somehow I doubt Malcolm will be denouncing Curtice as a Unionist stooge and lickspittle today.....
LABOUR’S plans to let Holyrood raise taxes for higher earners if Scots vote against independence would drive entrepreneurs away and could persuade supporters of the Union to vote Yes, according to business leaders.
Comments
Go and spend a couple of months with people who have suffered bullying, and you wouldn't be such a glib socialist.
There will be , at least, a couple of years of passing bills etc. The GE2015 will take place on the same seats unless another bill is passed.
What makes you think the Tories will win in England ?
http://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/market?id=1.101416490
Don't demean him because he had an unusual name. Demean him because he is a Tory.
Small objects seen.
I still expect a closeish no vote personally. But I may be wrong, and am personally wholly neutral as to the outcome,
Lots of resilience all round and the result was probably fair, even though there was still some play in it. Thanks all!
It seems a stretch that people who dislike the Tories in England will decide to vote Tory because Scotland votes Yes. Presumably UK-wide polls already reflect growing SNP support in Scotland. Tonights polls surely indicate, once again, the resilience of the Labour vote.
I think that he will have a minority government after Scotland votes no.
In my experience, a public school boy is most unlikely to be bullied for having an unusual name.
The boys we inverted over the latrines and gave a hair wash were called Ed, tim, Jim, Tony and Len.
Far more likely that Gideon changed his name after being asked for ID at a Mecca Bingo Hall and refused entry on the grounds of that the ticket issuer couldn't pronounce his name.
George Eaton @georgeeaton
Expect some Tories will be looking at the narrowing Scottish referendum polls and dreaming of the loss of 41 Labour MPs.
Every country rebalances itself. Labour lost power in Israel eventually. Congress likewise in India. The SNP will also lose power in Scotland. There is more than one party in it anyway.
Jo Nuutinien has some great hex based games for android.
I genuinely can't imagine what it's like to live a life in screaming capitals. Is it fun, perhaps in a scary sort of way?
Have you noticed here in PB when the Right gets into a frenzy about repatriation of powers, getting out of the EU, how Nabavi, Avery, Fitalass et al get their heads down and go below the radar ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon's_Way
Bad education ? Shurely shome fault of a Labour government ?
Earlier, in the evening , I really was scared about you after "equal" turned out to be a , er..., lead for Labour !
An interesting counterfactual would be what the subsequent colour of governments would have been. I would guess Labour would have taken over in '69 probably on a tired after four terms landslide similar to '97. Then run two or three terms to '78-9 or '82-'83.
Still, Surby, it was good to have a practice run. It's coming.
My guess is that it won't really level consistently until after the pay packets and salary slips have been absorbed through April.
Sir Roderick has it right that May is crossover month but we may get Basil with a long-sight sniper shot before May.
Anything's better than CNN's 24/7 relentless live coverage of the flight 370 mystery, ignoring all else happening in the world, like Ukraine for example..
The latest theories are aliens, or it landed intact and sank immediately, hence no debris field.
Yes, it really is that bad.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/USS_Saratoga_(CV-60)_at_Diego_Garcia_in_1987.JPEG
but it didn't
It would be interesting to know the number of Scots MPs for non Scottish seats each party has.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006ppmq
See pic.twitter.com/d2oikvtyuX
No - 46% - 3 Yes - 39% + 2
Was that after Ed made his speech?
There might be an actual slaughter in 2015, but I doubt the skills are there to grab it.
Early prediction - 3 Tory Scot seats 2015 - existing, West ab and Roxborough etc, outside shot at Mings Bling
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-new-poll-shows-yes-shift-1-3350563
And John Curtice' take on it:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/john-curtice-no-s-doom-and-gloom-misses-target-1-3350579
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/03/march-icm-poll-uncovers-worrying-underlying-trends-for-no/
Indeed, more generally the poll confirms the degree to which Labour support is potentially the weak link in the unionist camp; once the Don’t Knows are excluded no less than 34% of those who backed Labour in 2011 say they will vote Yes.
Somehow I doubt Malcolm will be denouncing Curtice as a Unionist stooge and lickspittle today.....
LABOUR’S plans to let Holyrood raise taxes for higher earners if Scots vote against independence would drive entrepreneurs away and could persuade supporters of the Union to vote Yes, according to business leaders.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1391336.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_03_2
Thanks a bunch.......