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Reform councillors are revolting. Is Farage in trouble? – politicalbetting.com

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,385

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

    Ancient history never was my strong point, but didn't Napoleon lose the Battle of Waterloo?
    The suggestion is any other general would have lost Waterloo given the predicament the French forces were in, but Napoleon won a lot of battles other generals wouldn't have won. It's the number and consistency of his victories that gives Napoleon his high score.
    Other high scorers are julius Caesar and Hannibal. Alexander does well, but he only played in 9 battles. So that’s like a cricketer with a very high batting average but only 9 tests. Napoleon did a lot of battles so his stats are robust.
    Also Napoleon seems to have fought a lot of battles where his troops were heavily outnumbered, winning almost all of them.
    He won a lot of battles, but lost the war...
    Indeed. But I guess Napoleon had already lost the war before he stepped foot on the field at Waterloo.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,333

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

    Ancient history never was my strong point, but didn't Napoleon lose the Battle of Waterloo?
    Waterloo is very very modern history; which starts somewhere around 1400. Unless you are a bit of a traditionalist and think modern history starts with the Arab/Islamic conquests of the 7th century - marking the end of late antiquity.
    [sigh] It was a "Gladiator" (original and best) reference!

    "Ancient history never was my strong point, Cassius, but didn't the Barbarians lose the Battle of Carthage?"
    We're not all as familiar with the Atellan farces as you plebeians are.
    The Carthaginians were not Barbarians, according to the Romans.
    They were just murdered or sold into slavery by the Romans when Carthage fell...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,203
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    The government’s pledge to deliver the highest rate of removals since 2018 has been surpassed, with a surge in returns activity since the election leading to 16,400 people with no right to be in the UK being removed.   

    I have no idea what the 'right' number should be, but it doesn't sound like very many.
    It’s much less than total irregular arrivals, but assuming a majority of those arrivals end up legal, I think it probably counts towards fair chunk of illegal migrants. Possibly even making a cut into the backlog.

    There are some easy pickings for government in a few areas of policy. Clearing asylum and immigration backlogs and emptying those hotels is surely one of them. Reducing legal migration numbers is another given the pipeline. Cutting NHS waiting lists post Covid too, and - though maybe harder than some others - upping the rate of housebuilding.

    Other things are much harder, notably the economy and fiscal balance. And “stopping the boats”, because that’s an international challenge.
    The number of removals is pitiful. I am glad they are climbing, good for Labour for that (really), but this figure only really highlights the disastrously low levels. It's like announcing a doubling of the burglary clear up rate. Good news but still ill-advised.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,241
    biggles said:

    TimS said:

    Oh bugger, got a speeding fine for 24 in a 20 zone.

    I used to think there was a "10% plus two miles" leeway. Until I got done for 77 mph on the M11.

    It wasn't until some years later it clicked. I was driving a black car. Which was worth seven points when the bored traffic cops were playing "snooker"...
    Wait, hang on… I assumed I was fine up to 80mph, partly because of the leeway, partly because the speedo overestimates, and partly because no one cares at 80 or below on the motorway.

    Now, I have never had any points (including where there are many, many cameras), but are you saying I have been lucky and need to start actually obeying the limit?
    These days, the roads are so busy that it is barely worth having traffic cops on patrol. Keep your eyes out for people breaking for speed cameras tucked away round corners/on overhead bridges. Mostly motorway traffic bunches up and drives steadily between 80 and 90 in both the middle and outside lanes. As long as you don't exceed 93 (when an automatic ban kicks in) you probably will be OK. Traffic is usually so solid the speed patrols don't get any opportunity to read your number plate/get a reading on your speed. Opportunities to exceed 100 are quite limited just due to the sheer weight of traffic.
  • .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.


    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    A last dip in, as I'm on my way out, but they were domestic, not overseas. The government has an intertwined problem of domestic, great power and internal infrastructure subversion that
    no UK government has ever faced.

    1980's Labour MP's did not simultaneously have access to the country's intelligence secrets, or nuclear submarine repair facilities.

    Actually, from the 60s onward, the
    intelligence services had significant issues due to the access certain senior MPs had.

    We had people encouraging the overthrow of the government by murder. And raising funds and giving public support to those attempting it.
    I'll chip in more from the cafe here, not not going along with my usual rules of digital detox on strolls, as I think this is such an important issue.

    I really can't see that the two scenarios would be that comparable. That would be a simple case of domestic subversion.

    What we have here is I would think a screnario a bit more like this :smile:

    Imagine if we had developed an absolutely intimately nuclear and intelligence relationship with Germany, after World War Ii. We couldn't use our subs or intelligence facilities without it. In the early 1980's, the Internet had developed, and a new populist right German government had shocked everyone by first using it to rise to power, and then threaten its neighbours

    The Co President took to using the Internet not only to stir up the extreme right in Brutain, too, but gave notice that he was actively trying to remove then U.K. government. The response from the UK Right would be absolutely frenzied and hysterical, and the tabloids would be launching daily witch-hunts for any German sympathisers,

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    Elon Musk seems to be the one calling for Labour politicians to be jailed.
    For which he is an idiot

    Would you have been ok with Ken Livingstone and Corbyn being sent to prison, though?
    Yes if they committed a crime for which jail time was the usual punishment.

    That's how we roll here, isn't it?
    Well, under the usual versions of the laws on “subversion and incitement” from The Goode Olde Days*, they would have got decades behind bars. If the Days were especially Olde, it would been Tower Hill and the chop.

    *which were never really good, of course. Unless you were 1% of the 1%
    Yes but did they commit a crime that was a crime when they committed it? This is the info I'm missing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,763

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

    Ancient history never was my strong point, but didn't Napoleon lose the Battle of Waterloo?
    The suggestion is any other general would have lost Waterloo given the predicament the French forces were in, but Napoleon won a lot of battles other generals wouldn't have won. It's the number and consistency of his victories that gives Napoleon his high score.
    Other high scorers are julius Caesar and Hannibal. Alexander does well, but he only played in 9 battles. So that’s like a cricketer with a very high batting average but only 9 tests. Napoleon did a lot of battles so his stats are robust.
    Also Napoleon seems to have fought a lot of battles where his troops were heavily outnumbered, winning almost all of them.
    He won a lot of battles, but lost the war...
    Ahem. He won a lot of *land* battles, but lost the naval, and therefore economic, war.

    But I suppose the latter was wearing his bicorn hat as head of state.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Although it might be difficult to punish him after he's overthrown the government.
    Donald Trump waves hello!
    Exactly. He's untouchable now.
  • See former Labour MP Ivor Caplin has been arrested today. Will let you search out why.

    Note that he was suspended by Labour in the summer, don't think this is related though.

    Not sure how he ever got into the whips office or became a minister.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Although it might be difficult to punish him after he's overthrown the government.
    Which is not an excuse to punish him before he's committed a crime, or treat insulting the government as a crime.
    You needn't worry that Musk will be prosecuted for crimes he hasn't done. Far more likely he won't be prosecuted for ones that he has. Such is his political power now. Power for which he is unaccountable and he knows it. Hence how he's using with total impunity.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    edited January 11
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    Elon Musk seems to be the one calling for Labour politicians to be jailed.
    For which he is an idiot

    Would you have been ok with Ken Livingstone and Corbyn being sent to prison, though?
    Yes if they committed a crime for which jail time was the usual punishment.

    That's how we roll here, isn't it?
    Well, under the usual versions of the laws on “subversion and incitement” from The Goode Olde Days*, they would have got decades behind bars. If the Days were especially Olde, it would been Tower Hill and the chop.

    *which were never really good, of course. Unless you were 1% of the 1%
    Yes but did they commit a crime that was a crime when they committed it? This is the info I'm missing.
    Some here seem to want to bring back the good times of “subversion and incitement”.

    Just pointing out that once that train gets rollin’ lots of fun will ensue.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,999

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    I often wonder whether this "Free Speech" lark is a little overrated.
    :)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    edited January 11

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277


    If Musk considers Yaxley-Lennon to be a moderate the Labour Party are indeed far left.

    I would be fascinated to read @williamglenn 's take.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    You're all wusses.

    92 in a 60.

    It was a motorway and a new beast which I didn't fully appreciate how much of a beast it was.

    Sheffield to Manchester via Junction 35a is a stretch of a road where I have been consistently caught between 2005 and 2012. Fucking average speed cameras.

    Between 2005 and 2012?
    That's seriously fast, bordering on reckless.
    Breaking the sound barrier is the cue the cops really needed to do something...
    Wing Commander Andy Green begs to differ!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.


    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    A last dip in, as I'm on my way out, but they were domestic, not overseas. The government has an intertwined problem of domestic, great power and internal infrastructure subversion that
    no UK government has ever faced.

    1980's Labour MP's did not simultaneously have access to the country's intelligence secrets, or nuclear submarine repair facilities.

    Actually, from the 60s onward, the
    intelligence services had significant issues due to the access certain senior MPs had.

    We had people encouraging the overthrow of the government by murder. And raising funds and giving public support to those attempting it.
    I'll chip in more from the cafe here, not not going along with my usual rules of digital detox on strolls, as I think this is such an important issue.

    I really can't see that the two scenarios would be that comparable. That would be a simple case of domestic subversion.

    What we have here is I would think a screnario a bit more like this :smile:

    Imagine if we had developed an absolutely intimately nuclear and intelligence relationship with Germany, after World War Ii. We couldn't use our subs or intelligence facilities without it. In the early 1980's, the Internet had developed, and a new populist right German government had shocked everyone by first using it to rise to power, and then threaten its neighbours

    The Co President took to using the Internet not only to stir up the extreme right in Brutain, too, but gave notice that he was actively trying to remove then U.K. government. The response from the UK Right would be absolutely frenzied and hysterical, and the tabloids would be launching daily witch-hunts for any German sympathisers,

    On the overseas angle - the USSR enthusiastically supported every single anti-government group (violent and non-violent) they could find.

    This is why, after 1989, much of the hard left collapsed. Their funding had vanished.

    This included training and arming terrorists.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Oh bugger, got a speeding fine for 24 in a 20 zone.

    I used to think there was a "10% plus two miles" leeway. Until I got done for 77 mph on the M11.

    It wasn't until some years later it clicked. I was driving a black car. Which was worth seven points when the bored traffic cops were playing "snooker"...
    77 in the 70, sh!t that’s not playing fair any more.

    The 70 limit “National Speed Limit” was enacted in IIRC 1973 in response to the oil crisis, when if you didn’t have an E-Type or a 911 you weren’t going faster than that anyway. Using modern cars’ performance as a benchmark, we should now have a limit of about 130.

    The Germans, as is often the case in late 20th Century motoring, had the right idea to leave the rural stretches of the motorway with no speed limit. The M6 Toll really missed a trick to make a proper British Autobahn.
    Although coming up on the toll booths could be a bit tricky at 100 mph...
    Indeed. Bloody dangerous with all those heavy lorries coming up behind at 120 threatening to wipe you out.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,999

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277


    If Musk considers Yaxley-Lennon to be a moderate the Labour Party are indeed far left.

    I would be fascinated to read @williamglenn 's take.
    Not me
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    Elon Musk seems to be the one calling for Labour politicians to be jailed.
    For which he is an idiot

    Would you have been ok with Ken Livingstone and Corbyn being sent to prison, though?
    Yes if they committed a crime for which jail time was the usual punishment.

    That's how we roll here, isn't it?
    Well, under the usual versions of the laws on “subversion and incitement” from The Goode Olde Days*, they would have got decades behind bars. If the Days were especially Olde, it would been Tower Hill and the chop.

    *which were never really good, of course. Unless you were 1% of the 1%
    Yes but did they commit a crime that was a crime when they committed it? This is the info I'm missing.
    Some here seem to want to bring back the good times of “subversion and incitement”.

    Just pointing out that once that train gets rollin’ lots of fun will ensue.
    Well it's a complex area. Oh how one yearns for ones that aren't.

    I can't solve the question but I can frame it.

    We'd all agree that Musk should not be prosecuted for being a dick.

    We'd all agree he should be for plotting to incite violence in the UK with a view to replacing Keir Starmer with a fascist dictatorship.

    So it's about where we are and where he's going and how to call that point where he needs to have his collar felt.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Although it might be difficult to punish him after he's overthrown the government.
    Donald Trump waves hello!
    Exactly. He's untouchable now.
    Only while Donald tolerates him.

    It wont last.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,144

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.


    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    A last dip in, as I'm on my way out, but they were domestic, not overseas. The government has an intertwined problem of domestic, great power and internal infrastructure subversion that
    no UK government has ever faced.

    1980's Labour MP's did not simultaneously have access to the country's intelligence secrets, or nuclear submarine repair facilities.

    Actually, from the 60s onward, the
    intelligence services had significant issues due to the access certain senior MPs had.

    We had people encouraging the overthrow of the government by murder. And raising funds and giving public support to those attempting it.
    I'll chip in more from the cafe here, not not going along with my usual rules of digital detox on strolls, as I think this is such an important issue.

    I really can't see that the two scenarios would be that comparable. That would be a simple case of domestic subversion.

    What we have here is I would think a screnario a bit more like this :smile:

    Imagine if we had developed an absolutely intimately nuclear and intelligence relationship with Germany, after World War Ii. We couldn't use our subs or intelligence facilities without it. In the early 1980's, the Internet had developed, and a new populist right German government had shocked everyone by first using it to rise to power, and then threaten its neighbours

    The Co President took to using the Internet not only to stir up the extreme right in Brutain, too, but gave notice that he was actively trying to remove then U.K. government. The response from the UK Right would be absolutely frenzied and hysterical, and the tabloids would be launching daily witch-hunts for any German sympathisers,

    On the overseas angle - the USSR enthusiastically supported every single anti-government group (violent and non-violent) they could find.

    This is why, after 1989, much of the hard left collapsed. Their funding had vanished.

    This included training and arming terrorists.
    Something similar will happen after Putin's Russia falls.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,171

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Although it might be difficult to punish him after he's overthrown the government.
    Donald Trump waves hello!
    Exactly. He's untouchable now.
    Only while Donald tolerates him.

    It wont last.
    It won't, but it's hard to predict exactly how it will implode and the consequences.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Cicero said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.


    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    A last dip in, as I'm on my way out, but they were domestic, not overseas. The government has an intertwined problem of domestic, great power and internal infrastructure subversion that
    no UK government has ever faced.

    1980's Labour MP's did not simultaneously have access to the country's intelligence secrets, or nuclear submarine repair facilities.

    Actually, from the 60s onward, the
    intelligence services had significant issues due to the access certain senior MPs had.

    We had people encouraging the overthrow of the government by murder. And raising funds and giving public support to those attempting it.
    I'll chip in more from the cafe here, not not going along with my usual rules of digital detox on strolls, as I think this is such an important issue.

    I really can't see that the two scenarios would be that comparable. That would be a simple case of domestic subversion.

    What we have here is I would think a screnario a bit more like this :smile:

    Imagine if we had developed an absolutely intimately nuclear and intelligence relationship with Germany, after World War Ii. We couldn't use our subs or intelligence facilities without it. In the early 1980's, the Internet had developed, and a new populist right German government had shocked everyone by first using it to rise to power, and then threaten its neighbours

    The Co President took to using the Internet not only to stir up the extreme right in Brutain, too, but gave notice that he was actively trying to remove then U.K. government. The response from the UK Right would be absolutely frenzied and hysterical, and the tabloids would be launching daily witch-hunts for any German sympathisers,

    On the overseas angle - the USSR enthusiastically supported every single anti-government group (violent and non-violent) they could find.

    This is why, after 1989, much of the hard left collapsed. Their funding had vanished.

    This included training and arming terrorists.
    Something similar will happen after Putin's Russia falls.
    Given what we know, and Putin’s worship of the glory days of the KGB, 100%
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,204
    edited January 11

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.


    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    A last dip in, as I'm on my way out, but they were domestic, not overseas. The government has an intertwined problem of domestic, great power and internal infrastructure subversion that
    no UK government has ever faced.

    1980's Labour MP's did not simultaneously have access to the country's intelligence secrets, or nuclear submarine repair facilities.

    Actually, from the 60s onward, the
    intelligence services had significant issues due to the access certain senior MPs had.

    We had people encouraging the overthrow of the government by murder. And raising funds and giving public support to those attempting it.
    I'll chip in more from the cafe here, not not going along with my usual rules of digital detox on strolls, as I think this is such an important issue.

    I really can't see that the two scenarios would be that comparable. That would be a simple case of domestic subversion.

    What we have here is I would think a screnario a bit more like this :smile:

    Imagine if we had developed an absolutely intimately nuclear and intelligence relationship with Germany, after World War Ii. We couldn't use our subs or intelligence facilities without it. In the early 1980's, the Internet had developed, and a new populist right German government had shocked everyone by first using it to rise to power, and then threaten its neighbours

    The Co President took to using the Internet not only to stir up the extreme right in Brutain, too, but gave notice that he was actively trying to remove then U.K. government. The response from the UK Right would be absolutely frenzied and hysterical, and the tabloids would be launching daily witch-hunts for any German sympathisers,

    On the overseas angle - the USSR enthusiastically supported every single anti-government group (violent and non-violent) they could find.

    This is why, after 1989, much of the hard left collapsed. Their funding had vanished.

    This included training and arming terrorists.
    The NuUSSR still support terrorists of course. During Trump's Presidency, they were bribing Taliban $200,000/US or coalition soldier killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, showing how baseless Trump's lies that Putin fears him are:

    https://kyivindependent.com/russia-paid-afghan-militants-200-000-per-killed-us-coalition-soldier-media-investigation-says/

    We're in a new Cold War already, whether we want to be or not. And so far our politicians are still in the spineless denial phase, like when the Attlee government transferred advanced jet technology to the Russians in 1946, despite opposition from the Air Ministry and Chiefs of Staff.

    We need to move towards much firmer behaviour asap.
  • .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    If the "rules" against terrorism were the same then as of now, we would have been within our rights to bomb the Irish quarters of New York , Chicago and Boston, where the IRA were fund raising.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Incitement and subversion are. He's called the government terrorists, Starmer to be jailed, and in August promoted civil war.
    During the 1980s, a non trivial number of Labour MPs applauded terrorism - including the Brighton Bombing. They also applauded and furthered the aims of the USSR.

    Should they have been jailed?
    Elon Musk seems to be the one calling for Labour politicians to be jailed.
    For which he is an idiot

    Would you have been ok with Ken Livingstone and Corbyn being sent to prison, though?
    Yes if they committed a crime for which jail time was the usual punishment.

    That's how we roll here, isn't it?
    Well, under the usual versions of the laws on “subversion and incitement” from The Goode Olde Days*, they would have got decades behind bars. If the Days were especially Olde, it would been Tower Hill and the chop.

    *which were never really good, of course. Unless you were 1% of the 1%
    Yes but did they commit a crime that was a crime when they committed it? This is the info I'm missing.
    Some here seem to want to bring back the good times of “subversion and incitement”.

    Just pointing out that once that train gets rollin’ lots of fun will ensue.
    Well it's a complex area. Oh how one yearns for ones that aren't.

    I can't solve the question but I can frame it.

    We'd all agree that Musk should not be prosecuted for being a dick.

    We'd all agree he should be for plotting to incite violence in the UK with a view to replacing Keir Starmer with a fascist dictatorship.

    So it's about where we are and where he's going and how to call that point where he needs to have his collar felt.
    How do you define plotting?

    There’s a reason that sedition fell out of legal favour. Read some history on that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    .

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who is "they" and what are they supposed to "do" precisely?

    Musk is a prat, a wanker, wrong . . . but none of that is illegal. Nor should it be.

    What is important is the right to free speech - which does not just go to those we agree with, but those we disagree with too. It does not just go to those whom we deem to be right, it goes to those who are wrong too. It does not just go to those we like, but it goes to those who are prats and wankers too.
    It's very far past just free speech. He's constantly briefing the press - the Mail and the FT this week - that he and his advisers are working on overthrowing the government, and in 9 days he will be one of the two most powerful people in the world.

    States act in situations like that.
    Briefing the press is free speech. You have the right to say whatever you like to the press, even if states dislike it, otherwise there's no free speech at all.

    If he takes action to overthrow the government then that would be illegal, unless it was following constitutional means such as convincing MPs in Parliament to vote a particular way - but briefing the press is not a crime.
    Carrying on whistling if you want, but one thing he often is is open about his plans.
    If he says he and his advisors and working on overthrowing the government, he very likely is
    What rot, he's a loudmouth who has very often made "plans" he has not got the ability to deliver.

    We'd have self-driving cars by now if he had delivered everything he said he was going to deliver.

    If he commits a crime to overthrow the government he should be punished. Speaking is not a crime.
    Although it might be difficult to punish him after he's overthrown the government.
    Donald Trump waves hello!
    Exactly. He's untouchable now.
    Only while Donald tolerates him.

    It wont last.
    It won't, but it's hard to predict exactly how it will implode and the consequences.
    It'll be messy that's for sure.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,315
    edited January 11
    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 814

    biggles said:

    TimS said:

    Oh bugger, got a speeding fine for 24 in a 20 zone.

    I used to think there was a "10% plus two miles" leeway. Until I got done for 77 mph on the M11.

    It wasn't until some years later it clicked. I was driving a black car. Which was worth seven points when the bored traffic cops were playing "snooker"...
    Wait, hang on… I assumed I was fine up to 80mph, partly because of the leeway, partly because the speedo overestimates, and partly because no one cares at 80 or below on the motorway.

    Now, I have never had any points (including where there are many, many cameras), but are you saying I have been lucky and need to start actually obeying the limit?
    These days, the roads are so busy that it is barely worth having traffic cops on patrol. Keep your eyes out for people breaking for speed cameras tucked away round corners/on overhead bridges. Mostly motorway traffic bunches up and drives steadily between 80 and 90 in both the middle and outside lanes. As long as you don't exceed 93 (when an automatic ban kicks in) you probably will be OK. Traffic is usually so solid the speed patrols don't get any opportunity to read your number plate/get a reading on your speed. Opportunities to exceed 100 are quite limited just due to the sheer weight of traffic.
    This is factually inaccurate in several ways, as any dedicated speeder will be able to tell you. To take one example, I've no idea where you got a 93mph automatic ban from. The ACPO guidelines are fixed penalty up to 96 and the resultant court case above there are not an "automatic ban" either. There is no speed that guarantees a ban and you probably aren't looking at one until at least 110 in practice.
  • These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,241

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    Go on someone in Norwich, order a strawberry pizza....
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,886

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.

    An unsustainable rise in gilt yields as foreign investors conclude that we are a basket case seems the most likely scenario, although the collapse of the healthcare system leading to mass avoidable fatalities might also do it. We shall see.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810

    These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    Go on someone in Norwich, order a strawberry pizza....
    With added kiwi fruit?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
    So Trump is Julius Caesar.

    Which state of the Union address do you expect the senate to assassinate him at?
  • These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
    Well, if you're happy to have guns in our major cities, no NHS, a virtually
    non-existent welfare state, and a Republic with a capital far away.

    By far the majority of British people don"t want these things, though.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 101

    Another cyclist who doesn't give a damn about other road users...

    https://www.facebook.com/reel/2806779622825450

    Uber Eats?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114
    Battlebus said:

    Another cyclist who doesn't give a damn about other road users...

    https://www.facebook.com/reel/2806779622825450

    Uber Eats?
    Perhaps he'd just offered TSE a £100 pizza?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,140

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    Just keep a tin of pineapple chunks in the cupboard for emergencies like that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,852

    These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
    Sure sure
  • Has there ever been a more mismatched round of the FA Cup?

    Apart from Arsenal v Manchester United tomorrow
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,768
    edited January 11
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

    Ancient history never was my strong point, but didn't Napoleon lose the Battle of Waterloo?
    The suggestion is any other general would have lost Waterloo given the predicament the French forces were in, but Napoleon won a lot of battles other generals wouldn't have won. It's the number and consistency of his victories that gives Napoleon his high score.
    Other high scorers are julius Caesar and Hannibal. Alexander does well, but he only played in 9 battles. So that’s like a cricketer with a very high batting average but only 9 tests. Napoleon did a lot of battles so his stats are robust.
    Also Napoleon seems to have fought a lot of battles where his troops were heavily outnumbered, winning almost all of them.
    He won a lot of battles, but lost the war...
    Indeed. But I guess Napoleon had already lost the war before he stepped foot on the field at Waterloo.
    When reading that Zamoyski biography of Napoleon my overall impression was he was one of the most impressive people in history, but he also never knew when to bloody stop, so everyone ending up opposing him seemed like a given.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,768
    Where did Subutai rank?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,894

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    "Telegraph falls for publicity stunt"
    V good stunt. Maybe TSE came up with the idea.....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,852
    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

    Ancient history never was my strong point, but didn't Napoleon lose the Battle of Waterloo?
    The suggestion is any other general would have lost Waterloo given the predicament the French forces were in, but Napoleon won a lot of battles other generals wouldn't have won. It's the number and consistency of his victories that gives Napoleon his high score.
    Other high scorers are julius Caesar and Hannibal. Alexander does well, but he only played in 9 battles. So that’s like a cricketer with a very high batting average but only 9 tests. Napoleon did a lot of battles so his stats are robust.
    Also Napoleon seems to have fought a lot of battles where his troops were heavily outnumbered, winning almost all of them.
    He won a lot of battles, but lost the war...
    Indeed. But I guess Napoleon had already lost the war before he stepped foot on the field at Waterloo.
    When reading that Zamoyski biography of Napoleon my overall impression was he was one of the most impressive people in history, but he also never knew when to bloody stop, so everyone ending up opposing him seemed like a given.
    A lot of successful people don't know when to stop, and therefore end up being unsuccessful people.

    Hitler, for example. Or Putin. Or Sunak. Or @malcolmg.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    "Telegraph falls for publicity stunt"
    V good stunt. Maybe TSE came up with the idea.....
    That doesn't seem likely. One, the restaurant will still serve them with pineapple pizzas and two, there's no suggestion that any buyers will be brutally tortured to death by listening to a post on the virtues of AV on loop.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,887

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I think its interesting how hostile the Indy is to this government.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    pigeon said:

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.
    The bulk of their riches are tied up in the housing market, so the solution is to stop pursuing policies that prop it up: end cheap money and mass immigration.

    Rachel Reeves is delivering on both counts by making borrowing more expensive and taxing jobs.
  • Farage makes over half a million in less than 6 months

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1878135674215264389?t=PR1QwYdXW-wbQYHUQr_hZQ&s=19
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,810
    https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1878129837203931368

    NEW: Greenland Prime Minister Mute Egede says he is ready to speak with Donald Trump as he calls for independence from Denmark.

    Egede said his people didn’t want to be Americans but said it was ultimately up to them to decide their future.

    “We are ready to talk [with Trump].”

    “We don’t want to be Danes. We don’t want to be Americans. We want to be Greenlandic… of course it’s the Greenlandic people who decide their future.”
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    On Kemi:


    "Kemi, unfortunately, has bought into her own mythology. Her self-image far outstrips her actual abilities, a dangerous delusion that has led her to miscalculate time and again. This overinflated sense of self is perhaps best captured by her childhood friend Taiwo Togun, who said Kemi’s mindset is: “I’m probably the best thing in the room, you just don’t realise it, and you will realise it sooner or later.” "

    | I suspect this forthrightness stems from her father, Femi Adegoke, who also dabbled in political activism. Femi’s nickname in Yoruba, by the way, was “obstinacy”. "


    https://thecritic.co.uk/kemis-achilles-heel/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,760
    L4%K loving attacking the disabled.

    Austerity Reeves hates disabled people because they dont add to the profits of millionaire donors who fund the Red Tories

    Well done SKS fans

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1877848020252864719
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,333
    AnneJGP said:

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    Just keep a tin of pineapple chunks in the cupboard for emergencies like that.
    "And a bag of Monster Munch."
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,760
    Zarah Sultana MP
    @zarahsultana
    ·
    4h
    Austerity has been discredited & 330,000+ deaths prove its deadly impact.

    Yet benefit cuts are being briefed & disabled people are again made to pay the price for “calming” the markets.

    Austerity with a red rosette is still austerity.

    This isn’t the “change” people voted for.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,333

    These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
    Well, if you're happy to have guns in our major cities, no NHS, a virtually
    non-existent welfare state, and a Republic with a capital far away.
    Honolulu is further away from Washington DC than London is...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368

    Elon Musk seems to think the Labour Party is a terrorist group:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1878038752120959277

    They're going to have to do something about this.
    Who, Musk and Trump?

    Replace Starmer with Yaxley-Lennon?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    We need a new Thatcher.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524
    edited January 11
    Surely when assessing Generalship one must take into consideration the decisiveness of the battle? Until the critical point a successful General avoids battle, preserves their forces, and orchestrates a more decisive battle. In particular aims to have the military advantage in that battle.

    General Giap didn't have many victories in the field, but the ones he did win ended wars: Dien Bien Phu and the 1975 Southern campaign. Arguably Tet was a strategic success too, as destroyed American backing for their war.

    He wouldn't score well in this guys metric.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,135
    pigeon said:

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.

    An unsustainable rise in gilt yields as foreign investors conclude that we are a basket case seems the most likely scenario, although the collapse of the healthcare system leading to mass avoidable fatalities might also do it. We shall see.
    If it’s just us, and not other European countries that need such drastic treatment, we would need to look at the reasons why. Destroying manufacturing, austerity, selling the family silver. Perhaps then, people would see the damage that Thatcher, Brown and Osborne inflicted on us.
  • On Kemi:


    "Kemi, unfortunately, has bought into her own mythology. Her self-image far outstrips her actual abilities, a dangerous delusion that has led her to miscalculate time and again. This overinflated sense of self is perhaps best captured by her childhood friend Taiwo Togun, who said Kemi’s mindset is: “I’m probably the best thing in the room, you just don’t realise it, and you will realise it sooner or later.” "

    | I suspect this forthrightness stems from her father, Femi Adegoke, who also dabbled in political activism. Femi’s nickname in Yoruba, by the way, was “obstinacy”. "


    https://thecritic.co.uk/kemis-achilles-heel/

    I am happy to give Kemi lessons on how to be modest and self effacing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,907
    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    FF43 said:

    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

    Ancient history never was my strong point, but didn't Napoleon lose the Battle of Waterloo?
    The suggestion is any other general would have lost Waterloo given the predicament the French forces were in, but Napoleon won a lot of battles other generals wouldn't have won. It's the number and consistency of his victories that gives Napoleon his high score.
    Other high scorers are julius Caesar and Hannibal. Alexander does well, but he only played in 9 battles. So that’s like a cricketer with a very high batting average but only 9 tests. Napoleon did a lot of battles so his stats are robust.
    Also Napoleon seems to have fought a lot of battles where his troops were heavily outnumbered, winning almost all of them.
    Yes, that’s how the methodology works. “Wins against replacement” (WAR).
    It’s a pretty dodgy methodology, though.
    One also has to consider was aims, and the outcome. Had Napoleon finally been defeated defending France, then fair enough, but the guy was just an inveterate warmonger and would-be tyrant.

    The IMO greatest exponent of military art was the legendary general and admiral, Yi Sun-sin.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin#Military_career

    He even out-Nelsoned Nelson with his final words in battle (a victory more crushing than Trafalgar):
    "The war is at its height – wear my armor and beat my war drums. Do not announce my death."
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,760

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    "Telegraph falls for publicity stunt"
    You fell for SKS not being a Tory
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,135

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    Go on someone in Norwich, order a strawberry pizza....
    There must be a challenge for a celebrity chef to create a dish combining fruit and a pizza base.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470

    L4%K loving attacking the disabled.

    Austerity Reeves hates disabled people because they dont add to the profits of millionaire donors who fund the Red Tories

    Well done SKS fans

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1877848020252864719

    The Telegraph piece is very thin.

    Lots of waffle and then says "The Telegraph understands that Labour ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) are continuing some of the work, looking at their own reforms to PIP."

    Looking at? Continuing "some" of the work? Looking into own reforms????

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,333

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    YouGov poll on pizza toppings, 2021:

    Most liked:

    Pepperoni 65%
    Sausage 56%
    Mushroom 54%
    Extra cheese 52%
    Onions 48%

    Most disliked:

    Anchovy 61%
    Aubergine 52%
    Artichoke 44%
    Broccoli 39%
    Pineapple 35%


    Caveat: poll was carried out Stateside!

    https://today.yougov.com/consumer/articles/34075-most-liked-disliked-pizza-toppings-poll-data?redirect_from=/topics/consumer/articles-reports/2021/02/08/most-liked-disliked-pizza-toppings-poll-data
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470

    https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1878129837203931368

    NEW: Greenland Prime Minister Mute Egede says he is ready to speak with Donald Trump as he calls for independence from Denmark.

    Egede said his people didn’t want to be Americans but said it was ultimately up to them to decide their future.

    “We are ready to talk [with Trump].”

    “We don’t want to be Danes. We don’t want to be Americans. We want to be Greenlandic… of course it’s the Greenlandic people who decide their future.”

    I am sorry to inform Mr Egede that the POTUS is not Woodrow Wilson this term.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    We need a new Thatcher.

    We’ve got Wilson at the moment, we need a new Callaghan first.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524

    We need a new Thatcher.

    Both the problems and opportunities of the economy are very different to 40 years ago. Different solutions are needed for different circumstances.

    The Tories love to Cosplay Thatcherism, but rarely understand it, hence Truss.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,135

    These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
    Well, if you're happy to have guns in our major cities, no NHS, a virtually
    non-existent welfare state, and a Republic with a capital far away.

    By far the majority of British people don"t want these things, though.
    Some of us would take up arms against us being a satellite of the USA, particularly a Trumpian USA.
  • We need a new Thatcher.

    Thatcher rejected any independent deterrent, and began the distancing from Europe.

    We probably need a new Atlee-Macilmillan. Somehow combined with Nelson.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368

    We need a new Thatcher.

    I thought Liz Truss was cosplay Thatcher, so Liz Truss?
  • Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,887

    pigeon said:

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.

    An unsustainable rise in gilt yields as foreign investors conclude that we are a basket case seems the most likely scenario, although the collapse of the healthcare system leading to mass avoidable fatalities might also do it. We shall see.
    If it’s just us, and not other European countries that need such drastic treatment, we would need to look at the reasons why. Destroying manufacturing, austerity, selling the family silver. Perhaps then, people would see the damage that Thatcher, Brown and Osborne inflicted on us.
    It ultimately comes down to a desire to live beyond means.

    Its something governments are happy to pander to but the desire is too deeply intrinsic among too many people.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,887

    We need a new Thatcher.

    But not the mythical Thatcher who too many Conservatives try to cosplay.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,907

    We need a new Thatcher.

    Why ?
    We’re still trying to get to grips with the mistakes she made.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,886

    We need a new Thatcher.

    We're not going to get one though. The scale of reform required to enable the country to live within its means - essentially, redistribution on a massive scale, or the dismantling of much of the welfare state - is going to be so wildly unpopular that nobody proposing it will be able to get elected. The political class and the electorate both indulge fantasy and wishful thinking, each feeding off the other, because it's far easier and less frightening than dealing with the very deep hole in which we find ourselves.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,605

    We need a new Thatcher.

    There’s no more family silver to sell
  • pigeon said:

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.

    An unsustainable rise in gilt yields as foreign investors conclude that we are a basket case seems the most likely scenario, although the collapse of the healthcare system leading to mass avoidable fatalities might also do it. We shall see.
    If it’s just us, and not other European countries that need such drastic treatment, we would need to look at the reasons why. Destroying manufacturing, austerity, selling the family silver. Perhaps then, people would see the damage that Thatcher, Brown and Osborne inflicted on us.
    It ultimately comes down to a desire to live beyond means.

    Its something governments are happy to pander to but the desire is too deeply intrinsic among too many people.
    The Germans were living beyond their means in 1950, but were very far from doing so in 1990.

    This wasn't only because of debt cancellation, but mainly because of vastly better investment, training, social and educational policies.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524

    Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    Largely down to Montgomery's intricate planning.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470
    Taz said:

    We need a new Thatcher.

    We’ve got Wilson at the moment, we need a new Callaghan first.
    Wilson was funny and quick on the feet at the despatch box.

    You can't say that about Starmer.

    Wilson was also an economics don.

  • Foxy said:

    Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    Largely down to Montgomery's intricate planning.
    No, because rejected Montgomery's dagger thrust plans.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,470

    Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    Have I missed something?

    Seems a bit of a random statement on a bitterly cold January night.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,907

    Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    He was a pretty good organiser, but I doubt he even faced odds like this:
    The Japanese fleet of approximately 333 ships (133 warships, at least 200 logistical support ships) entered Myeongnyang Strait in groups. The Japanese ships that made it through were met by 13 Joseon warships…
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,333

    We need a new Thatcher.

    I thought Liz Truss was cosplay Thatcher, so Liz Truss?
    Rachel Reeves is cosplay Liz Truss...
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,135

    We need a new Thatcher.

    Why? Which communities do you want to see destroyed this time? How many people do you want to see unemployed?
  • Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    Have I missed something?

    Seems a bit of a random statement on a bitterly cold January night.
    See this
    TimS said:

    In case nobody’s posted this yet, a really interesting exercise ranking generals in history using the same methodology as sporting rankings

    https://t.co/qM3daHx9oz

    Napoleon wins by miles.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,114

    Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    I am surprised you go for Eisenhower, who liberated the French, ahead of Wellington and Henry V who destroyed them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368
    ...
    Taz said:

    We need a new Thatcher.

    We’ve got Wilson at the moment, we need a new Callaghan first.
    Sergeant Wilson maybe, but certainly not Harold. Harold was one of our more impressive PMs in my lifetime. Don't forget he trumped Trump fifty years before Trump. Winner, loser, winner, then in Wilson's case almost replaced by Louis Mountbatten in a coup. A nice omen for us re; Trump.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    Go on someone in Norwich, order a strawberry pizza....
    There must be a challenge for a celebrity chef to create a dish combining fruit and a pizza base.
    I think grilled pear and gorgonzola is a classic Roman combination, on a white sauce base rather than tomato.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    Foxy said:

    Surely when assessing Generalship one must take into consideration the decisiveness of the battle? Until the critical point a successful General avoids battle, preserves their forces, and orchestrates a more decisive battle. In particular aims to have the military advantage in that battle.

    General Giap didn't have many victories in the field, but the ones he did win ended wars: Dien Bien Phu and the 1975 Southern campaign. Arguably Tet was a strategic success too, as destroyed American backing for their war.

    He wouldn't score well in this guys metric.

    The old comment about winning every battle but losing the war comes to mind, as well.

    I also recall one historian who tried to that the Duke of Wellington wasn’t a good general because, in Spain, he relied on his enemies attacking him uphill….
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,315
    edited January 11
    ydoethur said:

    Greatest general in history is Dwight Eisenhower.

    D-Day is the greatest feat in human history.

    I will entertain no other discussion in this matter.

    I am surprised you go for Eisenhower, who liberated the French, ahead of Wellington and Henry V who destroyed them.
    As bad as the French are they aren't Nazis.

    Had D-Day failed, like Dieppe, I think Western Europe would have either been occupied by the Russians, or nukes would have been dropped on it in the summer of 1945.
  • Foxy said:

    Surely when assessing Generalship one must take into consideration the decisiveness of the battle? Until the critical point a successful General avoids battle, preserves their forces, and orchestrates a more decisive battle. In particular aims to have the military advantage in that battle.

    General Giap didn't have many victories in the field, but the ones he did win ended wars: Dien Bien Phu and the 1975 Southern campaign. Arguably Tet was a strategic success too, as destroyed American backing for their war.

    He wouldn't score well in this guys metric.

    The old comment about winning every battle but losing the war comes to mind, as well.

    I also recall one historian who tried to that the Duke of Wellington wasn’t a good general because, in Spain, he relied on his enemies attacking him uphill….
    Yes, which is why Hannibal is a loser, ditto the Japanese in WWII despite some stunning early successes.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,713

    pigeon said:

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.

    An unsustainable rise in gilt yields as foreign investors conclude that we are a basket case seems the most likely scenario, although the collapse of the healthcare system leading to mass avoidable fatalities might also do it. We shall see.
    If it’s just us, and not other European countries that need such drastic treatment, we would need to look at the reasons why. Destroying manufacturing, austerity, selling the family silver. Perhaps then, people would see the damage that Thatcher, Brown and Osborne inflicted on us.
    It is not just us. Most rich world countries face sluggish growth, and are living beyond their means.

    Now, compared to most people, in most times, we’ve all drawn first prize in the lottery of life.
  • ...

    Taz said:

    We need a new Thatcher.

    We’ve got Wilson at the moment, we need a new Callaghan first.
    Sergeant Wilson maybe, but certainly not Harold. Harold was one of our more impressive PMs in my lifetime. Don't forget he trumped Trump fifty years before Trump. Winner, loser, winner, then in Wilson's case almost replaced by Louis Mountbatten in a coup. A nice omen for us re; Trump.
    Wilson stayed out of Vietnam, but he didn't have to contend with Nixon trying to overthrow him himself.

    I feel for Starmer, somewhat.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 29,368

    We need a new Thatcher.

    I thought Liz Truss was cosplay Thatcher, so Liz Truss?
    Rachel Reeves is cosplay Liz Truss...
    I am relieved you are back onboard.

    Keep Calmer, Vote Jenrick.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,894
    ydoethur said:

    Best news ever, this place should get a Michelin star.

    Trendy pizzeria charges £100 for a Hawaiian to discourage customers from divisive topping

    ‘Pineapple on pizza? Never,’ says head chef of Norwich restaurant weighing in on age-old row


    It is arguably the most divisive culinary combination.

    Topping the traditional Italian favourite with pineapple now comes with a hefty price tag at one trendy pizzeria.

    Lupa Pizza, in Norwich, is charging customers £100 for their Hawaiian pizza on the food delivery service, Deliveroo, because they disapprove of the combination so strongly.

    The pizzeria, where the average base costs £11.70, has nailed its culinary colours to the mast, telling customers: “Yeah, for £100 you can have it. Order the champagne too! Go on you Monster!”

    Francis Woolf, the co-owner of Lupa Pizza, told the Norwich Evening News: “I absolutely loathe pineapple on a pizza.”

    It is a sentiment shared by Quin Jianoran, the head chef, who added: “I love a piña colada, but pineapple on pizza? Never. I’d rather put a bloody strawberry on one than that tropical menace.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/11/lupa-pizza-pineapple-hawaiian-gordon-ramsey-justin-trudeau/

    "Telegraph falls for publicity stunt"
    V good stunt. Maybe TSE came up with the idea.....
    That doesn't seem likely. One, the restaurant will still serve them with pineapple pizzas and two, there's no suggestion that any buyers will be brutally tortured to death by listening to a post on the virtues of AV on loop.
    It will be in the small print.....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966

    pigeon said:

    "So, Starmer and Reeves must bear the impact of crashing into the brick wall of [an emergency Budget on] 26 March together. Between them, they have failed to give themselves enough room to avoid the collision. The only thing that can save them is some good luck on the economy that brings the OBR forecast back into line with Reeves’s fiscal rules in time."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rachel-reeves-emergency-budget-uk-economy-fiscal-rules-john-major-labour-party-b2677853.html

    I've come to the conclusion that this and every future Government is going to fail, until something effective is done about both economic inequality and the dependency ratio. The measures required, which will essentially amount to stripping wealthy elderly people and their heirs of a large chunk of their riches, and telling everyone under the age of about fifty that they will have to keep working into their seventies before they can claim the state pension, are going to be so unpopular that the country will have to keep circling the plughole until it falls into some major systemic crisis that will force ministers to act.

    An unsustainable rise in gilt yields as foreign investors conclude that we are a basket case seems the most likely scenario, although the collapse of the healthcare system leading to mass avoidable fatalities might also do it. We shall see.
    If it’s just us, and not other European countries that need such drastic treatment, we would need to look at the reasons why. Destroying manufacturing, austerity, selling the family silver. Perhaps then, people would see the damage that Thatcher, Brown and Osborne inflicted on us.
    It ultimately comes down to a desire to live beyond means.

    Its something governments are happy to pander to but the desire is too deeply intrinsic among too many people.
    There’s actually tons of manufacturing. It’s just not the “half naked men pouring molten steel” type stuff.

    The belief that there is no manufacturing is widespread in politics, though.

    Mind you, if you tell people that manufacturing was only 32% of the economy in 1970, they don’t believe you….
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Sitrep

    Rangoon is a bit of a shithole. A shithole full of post imperial noom but a bit of a shithole nonethiess

    We built an entire and magnificent Victorian/Edwardian city on the banks of the woogly-waggly here, a mighty grid of banks and churches and city halls and customs houses and ornate Anglo-Burmese train stations - surrounding the golden pagodas - and now it all rots like a collection of Sicilian palazzi and trees grow through the roofs of the Port Authority HQ and Mon women, cheeks daubed with yellow thanaka paste, squat in the mildewed porches of the shuttered Strand Hotel selling tiny lychees and cheap Chinese dolls

    There's some value in seeing it, though, as it's a perfect microcosm of much of the post-Imperial third world. At least that's what I thought when I was there a decade ago.

    We introduced state of the art Victorian governance and since we left, rather than build on our achievements with the added blessings of self-determination and democracy they have let it fall apart and the rest of the place with it.

    A pattern replicated in many places, sadly, from Hong Kong to Freetown to Khartoum to Salisbury to ...
    It's 15 years ago that I was there. I quite liked Rangoon, which I found to be very different to a lot of South East Asia, perhaps a view to what Thailand and Vietnam looked like before the impact of the West. Even then though the number of Chinese goods was driving out local goods. I was mostly in Upper Burma though, which is the heartland of Burmese culture.

    Burma was run as an outpost of British India, particularly to provide rice to Bengal. In 1942 Rangoon was 50% Bengali, most of whom fled, and often died, in the Empires longest retreat to India. This is a large factor in both the wartime Bengal famine, and the continuing animosity of Burmese to Muslims (seen as an Imperial presence inflicted by Britain on them). State of the art Victorian governance consisted of no say for local people in governance and forced extraction of resources at the point of a gun.

    I really liked Burma and might get back there sometime. It has a dreadful and barbaric military government, but magnificent and largely intact cultures and landscapes. There may well be regime change at some point as the military have had a number of recent setbacks in the ongoing civil wars. The rebels vary from pro-democracy students to Narco-oligarchs, via a multiplicity of minority nationalists. To say that Myanmar politics is opaque is one of the great understatement.
    Does it have anything to rival that famous Cambodian Temple city ?

    The legend of Angkor Wat, I think it's called.
    I have not been to Angkor Wat, but Bagan is one of the great sites. It was a city of 1 million people at one time, but all that is left now is the stone pagodas, perhaps a thousand of them in various states of ruin and size, with the civilian buildings all rotted away, leaving a massive plain of stupas.

    Shortly before I visited all the local people were cleared off the site, at gunpoint by the SLORC military, without compensation, in order to make it more of a tourist site. Burma is full of that sort of brutal history amongst the beauty.
    Angkor Wat is arguably THE single most impressive monument from the pre-modern world. And yes I’m including the pantheon, pyramids, Hagia Sophia, any medieval cathedrals (tho if you take them all together), Luxor; macchu pichu, Teotihuacan, and all

    I’ve seen them all and Angkor Wat remains - to my mind - in a dreamy world of its own. Albeit now blighted by billions of tourists

    I’ll be interested to compare Bagan. I very much doubt it’s in the same league but it does sound fabulous

    I am excluding Gobekli Tepe and the tas Tepeler because you have to. They are more like alien cities from Martian invasions
    I was going to say Gobekli Tepe is surely the most amazing example of ancient civilisation. Dated to 10,000 BC and it's just insane. Demolishes the idea that ancient humans were simple hunter gatherers and the African origin theory. It's been, err, interesting watching woke scientists try harder and harder to hold onto the African origin theory to the point of attempting to excommunicate scientists who dare to defy the prevailing theory. It's always amazing how scientific method takes a back seat when establishment approved ideas get disproved.
    How exactly does it demolish Out of Africa?
    That sounds an odd claim. GT is dated to 10,000 BC, whilst the OOA theory is based around a timespan 100-200,000 years ago. So the two sit very well together.

    OOA theory may be wrong - in outline and especially in detail - but I cannot see how the existence of GT disproves it.
    Yes, I thought the startling thing about GT was more around the emergence of complex societies needed (or what was presumed to be needed) to construct remarkable, er, constructions, so early on, not where it was. It's not like it's a million miles from other cradles of civilization (or Africa for that matter).
    The truly remarkable thing about Tas Tapeler is that what we are unearthing may be the ENDpoint of a great civilisation stretching back thousands of years before this. Which means agriculture might have killed it off?

    We just dunno. That would - inter alia - mean Graham Hancock is at least partly right (even if his worldwide comet theories are “a stretch”) which would annoy and destroy a lot of orthodox science

    I agree that Gobekli does little to challenge the Out of Africa theory, tho that does now face challenges of its own with all sorts of anomalous hominids now springing up in Asia/indonesia etc
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,333

    These are the kind of views that are being normalised in MAGA, circles I see more and more threads like this.

    "We can't rely on our allies to stay non-communist states. We should let them join us.
    Britain, for example."

    https://x.com/BrentMi62443170/status/1878129595095912907

    America is at the end of the Roman Republic stage. Why not formalise its empire and end the fiction that its client states have sovereignty?
    Well, if you're happy to have guns in our major cities, no NHS, a virtually
    non-existent welfare state, and a Republic with a capital far away.

    By far the majority of British people don"t want these things, though.
    Some of us would take up arms against us being a satellite of the USA, particularly a Trumpian USA.
    And once he's gone in 2029?
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