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How to make politics better, more lawyers getting involved – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,254
edited January 10 in General
imageHow to make politics better, more lawyers getting involved – politicalbetting.com

Liz Truss has sent a cease and desist letter to Prime Minister Keir Starmer, demanding that he stop saying she "crashed the economy" during her short tenure. In the letter, she says Starmer's claim is "false and defamatory." pic.twitter.com/Xg1N2AsWIu

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Comments

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    The last thing the World needs, is more lawyers.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,208
    Sandpit said:

    The last thing the World needs, is more lawyers.

    Oh I am so hurt @Sandpit. Do we not bring reason, clarity and the public good to every issue?


  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,385
    Liz Truss wasn't crashing the economy. She was saving the West
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    The last thing the World needs, is more lawyers.

    Oh I am so hurt @Sandpit. Do we not bring reason, clarity and the public good to every issue?
    The existing lawyers should be over the moon. Fewer of them to split all the fees.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,688
    FF43 said:

    Liz Truss wasn't crashing the economy. She was saving the West

    Looks like Reeves is too

    Only more so
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,385
    Allegations Liz Truss killed the Queen are OK however.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 101
    edited January 10
    The law abhors a vacuum ... or is it the vacuous
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    edited January 10
    An octogenarian Vince Cable on Bloomberg chatting about UK-China relations as Reeves visits Beijing.

    Hadn't seen him for a while.

    Asked if we need austerity to calm the markets he says "We are already in a period of austerity."
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,204
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Nut Zero is a total and complete waste of two trillion pounds or whatever the figure is which would be much better spent on rebuilding our armed forces and criminal justice system, filling our potholed roads and giving our over-taxed taxpayers and energy consumers a break.

    You'd think we'd realise that having just about the world's most expensive energy is not exactly the way to improve the economy, but evidently it'll take a few more years of decline before the penny drops.

    The crazy bit is that an 80% reduction is easy, particularly in electricity generation. And once we've done that, technology will have moved on, and it might turn out the next 80% is now easy too.
    You think having the most expensive energy in the world is EASY? Or that finding £2 trillion is?

    I shudder to think what you'd see as difficult.

    Net Zero is arbitrary, certainly affordable and probably unachievable. And would not make even a rounding error of difference to the world's climate. It should be scrapped, or at least delayed to 2350 or something to make it harmless.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,065
    Not only is it ball-freezingly cold, I'm almost out of the last of the Christmas chocolate.

    On-topic: surely we need more chemists?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,203
    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.
  • The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    So why did she fire Kwarteng?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,140
    Good morning, everyone.

    At one time, something like that would have been merely part of the normal rough & tumble of politics. Nowadays, however, if it's resulted in hurt feelings .....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,208

    FF43 said:

    Liz Truss wasn't crashing the economy. She was saving the West

    Looks like Reeves is too

    Only more so
    This is the kind of thinking that led to: "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it." Between Brown, Truss and Reeves there is only so much saving that we can take.
  • I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.
  • AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    At one time, something like that would have been merely part of the normal rough & tumble of politics. Nowadays, however, if it's resulted in hurt feelings .....

    It's utter woke nonsense from Liz Truss.
  • carnforth said:

    An octogenarian Vince Cable on Bloomberg chatting about UK-China relations as Reeves visits Beijing.

    Hadn't seen him for a while.

    Asked if we need austerity to calm the markets he says "We are already in a period of austerity."

    Cable- a grossly overrated politician and a China apologist.
  • The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    So why did she fire Kwarteng?
    She fired Kamikwazi because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She hired Hunt to rip up her entire programme because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She let Hunt announce emergency reversals to stabilise the markets and avoid disaster because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She lost control of her government and her agenda and then her party because she definitely didn’t do anything to crash the economy.

    Anyone who remembers otherwise, or is looking at the vast documented evidence is a victim of Blob thinking.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,888

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    TBF it doesn't seem to be a PBTory leading this revisionism, but a PBPutinist.
  • FF43 said:

    Allegations Liz Truss killed the Queen are OK however.

    Truss and her aides blame the Queen for the problems Truss faced.

    Far too much time was focussed on the funeral which took time away from planning the mini budget.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,935

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,966
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    At one time, something like that would have been merely part of the normal rough & tumble of politics. Nowadays, however, if it's resulted in hurt feelings .....

    I was only half joking, yesterday, that the OSA will get used on this.

    1) feelings hurt (tick)
    2) deliberately done (tick)
    3) but it’s true (irrelevant to the law)


    “If the law supposes that,” said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, “the law is an ass – an idiot”.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    So why did she fire Kwarteng?
    She fired Kamikwazi because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She hired Hunt to rip up her entire programme because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She let Hunt announce emergency reversals to stabilise the markets and avoid disaster because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She lost control of her government and her agenda and then her party because she definitely didn’t do anything to crash the economy.

    Anyone who remembers otherwise, or is looking at the vast documented evidence is a victim of Blob thinking.
    Nadeem Zahavi took over for Kwasi btw, Hunt was appointed by Rishi after he took over the leadership.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524

    FF43 said:

    Allegations Liz Truss killed the Queen are OK however.

    Truss and her aides blame the Queen for the problems Truss faced.

    Far too much time was focussed on the funeral which took time away from planning the mini budget.
    The Kwasi budget was a major success, according to Farage:

    "Today was the best Conservative budget since 1986" was his response.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,208

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,661
    I’m looking forward to the ghost of Mrs T issuing Cease & Desists to people referring to her as “the Milk snatcher.”

    Completely off topic I’m very bemused by the Beeb crowning Chapel Roan as the “Voice of 2025” when she’s been played endlessly most of 2024 on the radio, had several huge hits, on every tv talk show around the world and most festivals.

    Just waiting for the BBC to hear about the Beatles.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,253
    Just to correct some misinformation being promoted here on previous threads by people who seem to get their info on German politics from know-nothing nutty American far-right twitterers:

    No, Weidel won't be the next Chancellor of Germany (she is easily the most unpopular of the well-known politicians in Germany).

    Yes, CDU/CSU plus SPD will (almost certainly) between them have a majority of seats after the next election, so another Grand Coalition will be possible - indeed it is easily the most likely outcome.

    No, none of the AfD, the BSW or die Linke will form part of the next federal government.

    Right, I'm off, busy day. Seeya.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    Also: the virus came from a wet market and everyone agrees on that and it’s all settled can we now move on, thanks
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524
    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    Yes, as has long been known: beggars can't be choosers.

    If we don't run a balanced budget and responsible national finances then we can't have nice things, whether tanks or hospitals.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    Yes, the UK needs to massively cut spending. There is no other way to long term prosperity now, none of the political parties is willing to tell the truth though, certainly not Labour.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671

    FF43 said:

    Liz Truss wasn't crashing the economy. She was saving the West

    Looks like Reeves is too

    Only more so
    She makes Truss seem an overachiever.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    In your opinion what do we need to trigger a growth burst ?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,052
    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration.

    Personal experience informs or distorts - it drives perceptions which often count more than statistics or facts. The truth becomes your truth based on your interpretation of your experiences.

    All of this matters to politicians of all types - creating perceptions is often far more important than creating policy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,208
    MaxPB said:

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    If CT at 25% with expensing becomes revenue negative vs CT at 15% with limited expensing then it's hugely beneficial to the economy because it's pushing corporate money into capital investment. If you look at the stats business investment is on a hot streak too since full expensing was introduced. I'd estimate it's raised growth by 0.3-0.5% per year so far vs the baseline before when business investment was absolutely terrible.

    This is the intended result if having a higher rate with big reliefs/incentives to bring that rate down. You simply can't compare the UK to Ireland, Ireland works on the basis of 0.25-0.75% sweetheart rates for multinationals in exchange for a few thousand jobs. In small countries this might just about make sense because there's a low number of people and a few thousand jobs is enough to keep everyone employed and the state funded without any proper CT receipts. In the UK exchanging CT receipts for a few thousand jobs isn't viable our population is 10x larger. The multiplier that we get from those extra jobs is absolutely tiny compared to what we'd get with proper CT rates. You simply lack the understanding on this subject and by continually raising Ireland as a valid point of comparison and suggesting that a drop in CT receipts with full expensing is a bad outcome you show it time and again.

    From my perspective what the previous government achieved with the new CT policy was getting money out of dividends and into capital growth and if the trend proves correct then out of government hands into capital growth too. Money has gone from two very low multiplier categories to the single highest multiplier category, I don't see how this is the huge negative you think it is?
    The increase in tax reliefs for capital spend by business was undoubtedly the biggest single contribution that Hunt, or indeed any recent Chancellor, made to growth. Personally, I would like to have seen this go further to encourage training in the same way by, for example giving 120% relief on such spending. This might help address our chronic productivity problems.

    I am not sure that stuffing train drivers or doctors mouths with yet more gold will have the same effect.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524
    edited January 10
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    In your opinion what do we need to trigger a growth burst ?
    Dropping of trade barriers with our major trade partners, including non-tariff barriers, and for this to be worldwide.

    Almost the precise opposite of what is going to happen in 2025.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    In your opinion what do we need to trigger a growth burst ?
    Spending cuts, the state is now such a hugely overbearing part of the economy that it's crowding out enterprise and growth elsewhere.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    The photographs of Pacific Palisades are mind boggling. To drive home the loss my LA mate said “imagine if all of Hampstead burned down in one go. All of it. Every single house”
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    If CT at 25% with expensing becomes revenue negative vs CT at 15% with limited expensing then it's hugely beneficial to the economy because it's pushing corporate money into capital investment. If you look at the stats business investment is on a hot streak too since full expensing was introduced. I'd estimate it's raised growth by 0.3-0.5% per year so far vs the baseline before when business investment was absolutely terrible.

    This is the intended result if having a higher rate with big reliefs/incentives to bring that rate down. You simply can't compare the UK to Ireland, Ireland works on the basis of 0.25-0.75% sweetheart rates for multinationals in exchange for a few thousand jobs. In small countries this might just about make sense because there's a low number of people and a few thousand jobs is enough to keep everyone employed and the state funded without any proper CT receipts. In the UK exchanging CT receipts for a few thousand jobs isn't viable our population is 10x larger. The multiplier that we get from those extra jobs is absolutely tiny compared to what we'd get with proper CT rates. You simply lack the understanding on this subject and by continually raising Ireland as a valid point of comparison and suggesting that a drop in CT receipts with full expensing is a bad outcome you show it time and again.

    From my perspective what the previous government achieved with the new CT policy was getting money out of dividends and into capital growth and if the trend proves correct then out of government hands into capital growth too. Money has gone from two very low multiplier categories to the single highest multiplier category, I don't see how this is the huge negative you think it is?
    The increase in tax reliefs for capital spend by business was undoubtedly the biggest single contribution that Hunt, or indeed any recent Chancellor, made to growth. Personally, I would like to have seen this go further to encourage training in the same way by, for example giving 120% relief on such spending. This might help address our chronic productivity problems.

    I am not sure that stuffing train drivers or doctors mouths with yet more gold will have the same effect.
    Adding intangibles to expensing and a 150% rate for R&D investment is what I'd look at. Probably another £10-12bn per year in tax cuts but we'd get back 0.4-0.5% in growth.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,524
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    If CT at 25% with expensing becomes revenue negative vs CT at 15% with limited expensing then it's hugely beneficial to the economy because it's pushing corporate money into capital investment. If you look at the stats business investment is on a hot streak too since full expensing was introduced. I'd estimate it's raised growth by 0.3-0.5% per year so far vs the baseline before when business investment was absolutely terrible.

    This is the intended result if having a higher rate with big reliefs/incentives to bring that rate down. You simply can't compare the UK to Ireland, Ireland works on the basis of 0.25-0.75% sweetheart rates for multinationals in exchange for a few thousand jobs. In small countries this might just about make sense because there's a low number of people and a few thousand jobs is enough to keep everyone employed and the state funded without any proper CT receipts. In the UK exchanging CT receipts for a few thousand jobs isn't viable our population is 10x larger. The multiplier that we get from those extra jobs is absolutely tiny compared to what we'd get with proper CT rates. You simply lack the understanding on this subject and by continually raising Ireland as a valid point of comparison and suggesting that a drop in CT receipts with full expensing is a bad outcome you show it time and again.

    From my perspective what the previous government achieved with the new CT policy was getting money out of dividends and into capital growth and if the trend proves correct then out of government hands into capital growth too. Money has gone from two very low multiplier categories to the single highest multiplier category, I don't see how this is the huge negative you think it is?
    The increase in tax reliefs for capital spend by business was undoubtedly the biggest single contribution that Hunt, or indeed any recent Chancellor, made to growth. Personally, I would like to have seen this go further to encourage training in the same way by, for example giving 120% relief on such spending. This might help address our chronic productivity problems.

    I am not sure that stuffing train drivers or doctors mouths with yet more gold will have the same effect.
    On the contrary, when you look at the drivers of GDP growth over recent years, medical services have been a major component, and ongoing strikes a significant drag.

    Perhaps Scottish Lawyers need a payrise too 😉
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Nut Zero is a total and complete waste of two trillion pounds or whatever the figure is which would be much better spent on rebuilding our armed forces and criminal justice system, filling our potholed roads and giving our over-taxed taxpayers and energy consumers a break.

    You'd think we'd realise that having just about the world's most expensive energy is not exactly the way to improve the economy, but evidently it'll take a few more years of decline before the penny drops.

    The crazy bit is that an 80% reduction is easy, particularly in electricity generation. And once we've done that, technology will have moved on, and it might turn out the next 80% is now easy too.
    You think having the most expensive energy in the world is EASY? Or that finding £2 trillion is?

    I shudder to think what you'd see as difficult.

    Net Zero is arbitrary, certainly affordable and probably unachievable. And would not make even a rounding error of difference to the world's climate. It should be scrapped, or at least delayed to 2350 or something to make it harmless.
    Unfortunately, there isn't really an alternative: the science is clear, and we must decarbonise. As far as we can. Thatcher understood this too.

    However, for me that's the only objective, and I have no sociocultural, economic or political ones on top, and we should do so via the most effective, efficient and market led mechanisms possible.

    All other nations should do the same. And they should damn well get on with it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,204
    edited January 10
    It's always faintly amusing to see people with no economic training or knowledge discussing economic questions.

    Obviously the answer to whether Liz Truss crashed the economy or not is far more nuanced than either side will allow. And it's largely a matter of definitions.

    If we take "crash" as meaning a significant reduction in output, as happened in 2007-9 or again during the pandemic, no she clearly did not. That's obviously her argument.

    But it's difficult to reduce economic output significantly in a month. Large economies with huge public sectors are complicated beasts, with inherent stability. Without some massive catastrophe like a war or a huge natural disaster, it is extremely difficult to crash them in barely a month, and tax cuts of 1.5% of GDP certainly won't do it. Even Mitterrand in France in 1981-3, the clearest example of destroying a modern economy, took two years to do it. People will turn up to work tomorrow and do what they did, creating about as much economic output as they did yesterday, and it takes a while to change that.

    However, I don't buy her argument entirely. It's difficult to argue that her budget didn't "crash" some of the financial markets, because bond yields jumped to a greater extent here than in other comparable countries and the currency fell sharply. While financial markets always overshoot, the adverse reaction to her policies and, I think more importantly, the way they were presented, was manifest. Would that reaction have been the same if she'd run it through the OBR in the normal way and had proper forecasts done? Or if Kwasi hadn't said that there were more tax cuts on the way? We'll never know.

    The other interesting question is whether the boost in output given by her tax cuts would have offset the reduction from the increase in interest rates, if the former had ever been implemented. If the problems in the financial markets had spilled over into the real economy, there could have been a significant hit to output, though probably not on the scale of 2007 and 2020. Then it would have been valid to say that she crashed the economy. If the tax cuts had improved business confidence and the financial markets had calmed down and unwound their overshooting, then her gamble would have paid off.

    Sadly we will never know that either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229

    FF43 said:

    Allegations Liz Truss killed the Queen are OK however.

    Truss and her aides blame the Queen for the problems Truss faced.

    Far too much time was focussed on the funeral which took time away from planning the mini budget.
    Truss’s problem was that she thought the politics was a waste of time, because it was all self-evidently true, and therefore anyone who questioned it must be Deep State.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,330
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    Allegations Liz Truss killed the Queen are OK however.

    Truss and her aides blame the Queen for the problems Truss faced.

    Far too much time was focussed on the funeral which took time away from planning the mini budget.
    The Kwasi budget was a major success, according to Farage:

    "Today was the best Conservative budget since 1986" was his response.

    She had her Scottish fans also, in fact one of them now leads the SCons.

    https://x.com/poloandsons/status/1877344734076662236
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    The threader is wrong. The idea this silly intervention by a silly woman will shift the political dial - one way or another - is almost as silly as Liz Truss herself. No one cares. Joe Newent doesn’t give a fuck. We approach economic ruin. Trump is heading for the White House. Reform are on the march in the UK like the hard right across the west. The Ukraine war rages on. Aliens hover over Trenton

    The significance of this is picayune. Next
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,385

    FF43 said:

    Allegations Liz Truss killed the Queen are OK however.

    Truss and her aides blame the Queen for the problems Truss faced.

    Far too much time was focussed on the funeral which took time away from planning the mini budget.
    So the Queen crashed the economy? Or whatever Liz Truss was doing that wasn't crashing the economy?

    Confused ...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,330
    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,759
    Liz Truss
    MaxPB said:

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    So why did she fire Kwarteng?
    She fired Kamikwazi because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She hired Hunt to rip up her entire programme because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She let Hunt announce emergency reversals to stabilise the markets and avoid disaster because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She lost control of her government and her agenda and then her party because she definitely didn’t do anything to crash the economy.

    Anyone who remembers otherwise, or is looking at the vast documented evidence is a victim of Blob thinking.
    Nadeem Zahavi took over for Kwasi btw, Hunt was appointed by Rishi after he took over the leadership.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/14/liz-truss-appoints-jeremy-hunt-as-chancellor-after-sacking-kwarteng

    You misremembered
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
  • I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    Yes, the window seems to be moving quite fast.

    Musk essentially threatening to take control of thr U.K. is already not batting that many eyelids. I have to be honest that I think many people are going to need to re-evaluate and reconfigure their worldview at some time soon.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,605
    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    Ukraine might not agree to that
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,166
    MaxPB said:

    Nadeem Zahavi took over for Kwasi btw, Hunt was appointed by Rishi after he took over the leadership.

    He got the job when BoZo couldn't find anyone else shameless enough to take it.

    It didn't stop BoZo's defenestration
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,132
    Why is Rachel Reeves going to China?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358
    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358

    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    Ukraine might not agree to that
    They are the Greenland or Panama of the conversation for the oligarchs and asociated fanbois.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,052
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    In your opinion what do we need to trigger a growth burst ?
    Spending cuts, the state is now such a hugely overbearing part of the economy that it's crowding out enterprise and growth elsewhere.
    We’ve heard this mantra before - it’s happening in New Zealand where the country has gone into recession so perhaps it’s not the answer.

    What would you cut? Defence, adult social care, care for vulnerable children and by how much? Not having to pay billions in debt interest on all the borrowing of the previous Government would no doubt help but we’re stuck with that.

    Perhaps we should sack half the civil service - I seem to remember someone coming up with that.
  • Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    How would one know that either would keep to their word?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    edited January 10
    Interesting that Trump has, amongst all his territorial claims, not (yet) threatened to annexe the Chagos Islands. I mean, all he'd have to do is announce that he'd done it.

    (By the way, with all this talk of us paying Mauritius £90m a year, does anyone actually have an estimate of the rent the US pay us? I mean, if it's £90m, that's a bit different from if it's £10m or £400m....)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,330
    edited January 10
    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    Is Putey going to take martial threats from no more foreign wars Trump seriously? The danger of the two crime bosses cobbling together a 'peace' is Putin being able to present the SMO as a victory and immediately planning round 2.
  • Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    I would actually support an agreement on Ukraine.The problem is that is what is quickly now being normalised is Trump's approach elsewhere, by Britain, among others.

    This could quickly normalise Putin"s modus operandi in Ukraine. The uncomfortable reality is that we are now actually at risk from both the U.S. and Russia.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    It’s where their only and very precious child - a daughter - spent her early years and for that reason it has intense emotional value

    Tsk
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Nut Zero is a total and complete waste of two trillion pounds or whatever the figure is which would be much better spent on rebuilding our armed forces and criminal justice system, filling our potholed roads and giving our over-taxed taxpayers and energy consumers a break.

    You'd think we'd realise that having just about the world's most expensive energy is not exactly the way to improve the economy, but evidently it'll take a few more years of decline before the penny drops.

    The crazy bit is that an 80% reduction is easy, particularly in electricity generation. And once we've done that, technology will have moved on, and it might turn out the next 80% is now easy too.
    You think having the most expensive energy in the world is EASY? Or that finding £2 trillion is?

    I shudder to think what you'd see as difficult.

    Net Zero is arbitrary, certainly affordable and probably unachievable. And would not make even a rounding error of difference to the world's climate. It should be scrapped, or at least delayed to 2350 or something to make it harmless.
    The only part of that that's true is that it's certainly affordable.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    I’m loving the revisionist history from PB Tories. Of course she didn’t crash the economy. And as a result she didn’t have to sack her chancellor and hire the guy to rip up and immediately reverse the things she had done to crash the economy. Because she hadn’t. So it didn’t happen. Indeed it’s such a lie because she’s still our PM. And she’ll sue anyone who claims that having crashed the economy, sacking her chancellor and having to scrap her entire programme to stop the crash being permanent that she then was forced to resign.

    It’s defamation.

    The difference in politics today is less between left and right and more between those who live in reality and those who live in fantasy. Truss didn’t crash the economy, Canada will join the US, threatening Greenland is a sensible policy, Russia only invaded Ukraine because they felt threatened by NATO expansion, Matt Gaetz would be a good Attorney General, etc.
    What the Truss episode did usefully expose is how close the United Kingdom had got to the edge of what was acceptable to our near £2trn of creditors and how little autonomy the UK Chancellor in fact has. This remains the case and is why even the Guardian is forecasting sharp cuts in public spending by Reeves in her Spring budget.

    The fantasists who believe all that is needed to trigger a burst of growth is tax cuts or additional capital spending funded by additional borrowing are those that refuse to learn that rather simple, clear and obvious lesson.
    In your opinion what do we need to trigger a growth burst ?
    Spending cuts, the state is now such a hugely overbearing part of the economy that it's crowding out enterprise and growth elsewhere.
    We’ve heard this mantra before - it’s happening in New Zealand where the country has gone into recession so perhaps it’s not the answer.

    What would you cut? Defence, adult social care, care for vulnerable children and by how much? Not having to pay billions in debt interest on all the borrowing of the previous Government would no doubt help but we’re stuck with that.

    Perhaps we should sack half the civil service - I seem to remember someone coming up with that.
    Argentina went into a recession too after making big cuts to the state. I'd start with big cuts in headcount for all non-customer facing people. Maybe 20-30%, up to 50% in some departments like education.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    Ukraine might not agree to that
    Or, they might. They weary of the war and they have run out of men
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,505
    First council by-election of the year. And it’s a Lib Dem gain from the Tories.

    https://x.com/aldc/status/1877515826477113710?s=46

    LIBDEM GAIN FROM CON
    NORTH DEVON DC: Instow Ward
    🔶 LibDem, Becky Coombs, 197, 38%
    🔵 Con, 166, 32%
    ➡️ Reform, 99, 17%
    *️⃣ Ind, 49, 9%
    🟢 Grn, 17, 4%

    Hard one to read as last time there were 3 independents standing, as well as a small Labour showing, and no Reform or Lib Dem.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    Is Putey going to take martial threats from no more foreign wars Trump seriously? The danger of the two crime bosses cobbling together a 'peace' is Putin being able to present the SMO as a victory and immediately planning round 2.
    You lost me at “Putey” where I had an involuntary hysterectomy due to Cringe
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    Andy_JS said:

    Why is Rachel Reeves going to China?


    "We've paid to handover our island to your client state, like we said we would; now, can you please give us some extra investment?"
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    It’s where their only and very precious child - a daughter - spent her early years and for that reason it has intense emotional value

    Tsk
    Yeah, but for someone with one home and no spare cash, unable to get insurance because they live somewhere at risk of destruction, may also have fond family memories, but if they lost their house may end up sleeping on the streets or in shelters, as well as feeling sad about the memories.

    Its a big massive f*** off shield to have a billion quid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    kamski said:

    Just to correct some misinformation being promoted here on previous threads by people who seem to get their info on German politics from know-nothing nutty American far-right twitterers:

    No, Weidel won't be the next Chancellor of Germany (she is easily the most unpopular of the well-known politicians in Germany).

    Yes, CDU/CSU plus SPD will (almost certainly) between them have a majority of seats after the next election, so another Grand Coalition will be possible - indeed it is easily the most likely outcome.

    No, none of the AfD, the BSW or die Linke will form part of the next federal government.

    Right, I'm off, busy day. Seeya.

    But you didn't tell us whether or not Hitler was a communist...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,759
    Why have the right forgotten Ronald Reagan?

    https://youtu.be/wpVvgNs8tqI?feature=shared

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358
    Jonathan said:

    Why have the right forgotten Ronald Reagan?

    https://youtu.be/wpVvgNs8tqI?feature=shared

    He was pretty good at this speaking lark. Trump et al are not the right but populist grifters.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312

    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    Ukraine might not agree to that
    Depending how much of the semi-trained reserves and so on you include, more than half the Russian army has already been destroyed.

    That's why they have North Korea and all the multination impressed conscripts involved.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    Ah, more use of our libel laws as intended. Warms the heart.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906

    Leon said:

    I gather a meeting with Putin is now high on the Trump agenda. I'm sure the 'I'm no fan of Trump but' guys will move seamlessly to 'I'm no fan of Putin but'.

    If it ends the Ukraine war, will you complain?

    If there is gonna be peace, someone has to talk to Putin. It might as well be the American president rather than manny macron or sir sheer wanker or indeed Elon musk because Trump can say “ok you can keep the Crimea and half of donbass but if you carry on with this I will personally order the destruction of half the Russian army in two weeks”

    And that might actually work
    How would one know that either would keep to their word?
    I think we can be pretty sure they wouldn't, going on past form.

    Putin is more reliable than Trump, as you can be absolutely certain he'll break any agreement he enters into.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,661
    Andy_JS said:

    Why is Rachel Reeves going to China?

    She’s been summoned by the Chinese as they heard Labour had a brilliant Ming Vase and broke it sometime in the last six months.

    Luckily Rachel will be able to reassure them she’s only broken an economy not an ancient treasure.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    The problem isn’t the mega rich of Hollywood, as much as it’s the average upper-middle-class salaryman in the city, with one house and a large mortgage on it.

    If, as has been suggested, the State-backed fire insurance fund has only 1% of the expected cost of these fires in its reserve, there’s going to be quite the row between the banks and the State (whether LA or California) about where the costs of rebuilding fall.

    Meanwhile, at least one man has been arrested for arson in LA, seemingly caught red-handed with a blowtorch.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    It’s where their only and very precious child - a daughter - spent her early years and for that reason it has intense emotional value

    Tsk
    Yeah, but for someone with one home and no spare cash, unable to get insurance because they live somewhere at risk of destruction, may also have fond family memories, but if they lost their house may end up sleeping on the streets or in shelters, as well as feeling sad about the memories.

    Its a big massive f*** off shield to have a billion quid.
    Jesus. You’re nice

    I’m not saying he’s the unluckiest man in history I’m saying that even untold wealth can’t stop a fire from seriously fucking your life in a way that cannot be reversed

    It’s not the observation of the ages, it’s so true it’s trite

    But still. Quite a fire
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,314
    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss

    MaxPB said:

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    So why did she fire Kwarteng?
    She fired Kamikwazi because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She hired Hunt to rip up her entire programme because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She let Hunt announce emergency reversals to stabilise the markets and avoid disaster because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She lost control of her government and her agenda and then her party because she definitely didn’t do anything to crash the economy.

    Anyone who remembers otherwise, or is looking at the vast documented evidence is a victim of Blob thinking.
    Nadeem Zahavi took over for Kwasi btw, Hunt was appointed by Rishi after he took over the leadership.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/14/liz-truss-appoints-jeremy-hunt-as-chancellor-after-sacking-kwarteng

    You misremembered
    Oh yeah that was Boris who appointed Zahavi after Rishi quit. It all jumbles together in the end.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312
    TimS said:

    First council by-election of the year. And it’s a Lib Dem gain from the Tories.

    https://x.com/aldc/status/1877515826477113710?s=46

    LIBDEM GAIN FROM CON
    NORTH DEVON DC: Instow Ward
    🔶 LibDem, Becky Coombs, 197, 38%
    🔵 Con, 166, 32%
    ➡️ Reform, 99, 17%
    *️⃣ Ind, 49, 9%
    🟢 Grn, 17, 4%

    Hard one to read as last time there were 3 independents standing, as well as a small Labour showing, and no Reform or Lib Dem.

    In Devon, Becky Coombs should be the ward, not the candidate :smile: .
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,707

    Not only is it ball-freezingly cold, I'm almost out of the last of the Christmas chocolate.

    On-topic: surely we need more chemists?

    There should be far more statisticians. Or, more specifically, more jobs for statisticians at higher rates of pay. Sensible policies for a happier Britain, I feel.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,759
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss

    MaxPB said:

    The header acknowledges that the minibudget didn't crash the economy. Nor were the tax cuts contained therein particularly extreme or expensive. On the information we now have the 30% increase in Corporation Tax that she fought against has added 10% to CT receipts in the full year it has been in place. Yes there are some mitigating factors with expensing that would mean you wouldn't expect to get the full 30%, but the bottom line is if those trends continue, it will become revenue neutral and then actually cost the exchequer money in the coming years. As any idiot looking at Ireland could have predicted.

    So why did she fire Kwarteng?
    She fired Kamikwazi because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She hired Hunt to rip up her entire programme because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She let Hunt announce emergency reversals to stabilise the markets and avoid disaster because she hadn’t crashed the economy
    She lost control of her government and her agenda and then her party because she definitely didn’t do anything to crash the economy.

    Anyone who remembers otherwise, or is looking at the vast documented evidence is a victim of Blob thinking.
    Nadeem Zahavi took over for Kwasi btw, Hunt was appointed by Rishi after he took over the leadership.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/14/liz-truss-appoints-jeremy-hunt-as-chancellor-after-sacking-kwarteng

    You misremembered
    Oh yeah that was Boris who appointed Zahavi after Rishi quit. It all jumbles together in the end.
    It’s a mad blur, but significant in the sense that Truss had no choice but to send for her political opponent and execute a 180 on her plan.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    The problem isn’t the mega rich of Hollywood, as much as it’s the average upper-middle-class salaryman in the city, with one house and a large mortgage on it.

    If, as has been suggested, the State-backed fire insurance fund has only 1% of the expected cost of these fires in its reserve, there’s going to be quite the row between the banks and the State (whether LA or California) about where the costs of rebuilding fall.

    Meanwhile, at least one man has been arrested for arson in LA, seemingly caught red-handed with a blowtorch.
    Apparently the value of the realty lost is so mega this one fire outbreak has probably cost $150bn. That’s the GDP of a minor nation right there
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,095
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

    Sometimes it's just twats:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/los-angeles-wildfires-california-death-toll-kenneth-fire-la-arson-arrest-b1203990.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

    Have you seen the excruciating interview with the mayor of LA where she is asked some pretty simple questions like “why did you go abroad during the fires” and she simply freezes? That’s one career finished

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1877115173443400065?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    edited January 10
    TimS said:

    First council by-election of the year. And it’s a Lib Dem gain from the Tories.

    https://x.com/aldc/status/1877515826477113710?s=46

    LIBDEM GAIN FROM CON
    NORTH DEVON DC: Instow Ward
    🔶 LibDem, Becky Coombs, 197, 38%
    🔵 Con, 166, 32%
    ➡️ Reform, 99, 17%
    *️⃣ Ind, 49, 9%
    🟢 Grn, 17, 4%

    Hard one to read as last time there were 3 independents standing, as well as a small Labour showing, and no Reform or Lib Dem.

    Wasn't this the one where the previous independent joined the Lib Dems ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,312
    On topic,

    I listened to the Leading (side project of the Bad Al and Rory the Tory podcast) interview with Sadjd Javid from last year, and it was very informative - including touching on things like his life history and issues around men's mental health (his brother killed himself).

    Quite refreshing. 'I thought I could moderate Liz Truss if I was on her team. I was wrong.'

    Worth a listen imo:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYRcV54YIag&list=PL_6zDbB-zRef_M7eXuSLUlGnt7qk66hJq&index=8
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,671
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

    It can be down to both, it can be down to inadequate preparation to mitigate climate change.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,358
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    It’s where their only and very precious child - a daughter - spent her early years and for that reason it has intense emotional value

    Tsk
    Yeah, but for someone with one home and no spare cash, unable to get insurance because they live somewhere at risk of destruction, may also have fond family memories, but if they lost their house may end up sleeping on the streets or in shelters, as well as feeling sad about the memories.

    Its a big massive f*** off shield to have a billion quid.
    Jesus. You’re nice

    I’m not saying he’s the unluckiest man in history I’m saying that even untold wealth can’t stop a fire from seriously fucking your life in a way that cannot be reversed

    It’s not the observation of the ages, it’s so true it’s trite

    But still. Quite a fire
    If you want nice perhaps you should stop cheerleading for millions of Ukranians to have to live under Putins murderous regime. Just saying.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,906
    edited January 10
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    The problem isn’t the mega rich of Hollywood, as much as it’s the average upper-middle-class salaryman in the city, with one house and a large mortgage on it.

    If, as has been suggested, the State-backed fire insurance fund has only 1% of the expected cost of these fires in its reserve, there’s going to be quite the row between the banks and the State (whether LA or California) about where the costs of rebuilding fall.

    Meanwhile, at least one man has been arrested for arson in LA, seemingly caught red-handed with a blowtorch.
    Not sure the average house owner in some of those areas is the average upper middle class salaryman.
    In Pacific Palisades, the average home price is around $3.5m (and apparently the average mean income $130k).
    Not a few inherited properties there, and not a few simply don't have proper home insurance as they couldn't afford it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,759
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

    At some point, the right will have to adapt to the brutal realities of climate change. I wonder who will lead the way. What we do know is that this lot can pivot on their dearest beliefs in a heartbeat.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    MattW said:

    TimS said:

    First council by-election of the year. And it’s a Lib Dem gain from the Tories.

    https://x.com/aldc/status/1877515826477113710?s=46

    LIBDEM GAIN FROM CON
    NORTH DEVON DC: Instow Ward
    🔶 LibDem, Becky Coombs, 197, 38%
    🔵 Con, 166, 32%
    ➡️ Reform, 99, 17%
    *️⃣ Ind, 49, 9%
    🟢 Grn, 17, 4%

    Hard one to read as last time there were 3 independents standing, as well as a small Labour showing, and no Reform or Lib Dem.

    In Devon, Becky Coombs should be the ward, not the candidate :smile: .
    Maybe she's married to Martin.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,489
    edited January 10
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

    Have you seen the excruciating interview with the mayor of LA where she is asked some pretty simple questions like “why did you go abroad during the fires” and she simply freezes? That’s one career finished

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1877115173443400065?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
    The LA Fire Department had their budget cut by $17.5m this year, had to cancel the planned testing of fire hydrants last week - but of course still had enough budget for the $250k Head of DEI, and waving flags at the Pride march while writing articles moaning that the FD has “a white man problem”.

    The City also failed to clear scrub from the forests, and the water utility failed to ensure that the reservoirs used for firefighting were full. The water utility head (on $750k per year) did an interview that was equally excruciating. She had one job to do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 57,145

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m at Bangkok airport and I just got a slightly unnerved phone call from one of my best friends

    He lost his home in the LA fires - his was in Malibu. Whoooof! All gone. Quite terrifying

    His loss is somewhat mitigated by the fact he has two other homes in LA (they’d just vacated the Malibu one to rent it out) and he’s worth roughly £1bn

    But still. He was quite choked. Just shows that even obscene wealth does not shield you

    It shows that the opposite! He has two other homes and can buy another few hundred. That is a pretty impressive shield.
    It’s where their only and very precious child - a daughter - spent her early years and for that reason it has intense emotional value

    Tsk
    Yeah, but for someone with one home and no spare cash, unable to get insurance because they live somewhere at risk of destruction, may also have fond family memories, but if they lost their house may end up sleeping on the streets or in shelters, as well as feeling sad about the memories.

    Its a big massive f*** off shield to have a billion quid.
    Jesus. You’re nice

    I’m not saying he’s the unluckiest man in history I’m saying that even untold wealth can’t stop a fire from seriously fucking your life in a way that cannot be reversed

    It’s not the observation of the ages, it’s so true it’s trite

    But still. Quite a fire
    If you want nice perhaps you should stop cheerleading for millions of Ukranians to have to live under Putins murderous regime. Just saying.....
    Are you on ketamine? What the fuck has Ukraine got to do with my friend losing his house in the LA fires??’
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,763
    edited January 10
    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all from Aotearoa :)

    I thought what the world needs now was love, sweet love, no, not just for fun but for everyone.

    Dreadful scenes from Los Angeles once again on the New Zealand evening news followed by confirmation 2024 was Earth’s warmest year. Sometimes the impact of climate change doesn’t become real until it becomes personal - a bit like immigration...

    It's still not real for an awful lot of people.
    LA was entirely down to the governor, not climate change, apparently.

    At some point, the right will have to adapt to the brutal realities of climate change. I wonder who will lead the way. What we do know is that this lot can pivot on their dearest beliefs in a heartbeat.
    I was thinking the other day that the PB right has gone awfully quiet on whether there is actually climate change compared to PB 10 years ago. Now it's beginning to be about exploiting it, e.g. Greenland.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,229
    TimS said:

    First council by-election of the year. And it’s a Lib Dem gain from the Tories.

    https://x.com/aldc/status/1877515826477113710?s=46

    LIBDEM GAIN FROM CON
    NORTH DEVON DC: Instow Ward
    🔶 LibDem, Becky Coombs, 197, 38%
    🔵 Con, 166, 32%
    ➡️ Reform, 99, 17%
    *️⃣ Ind, 49, 9%
    🟢 Grn, 17, 4%

    Hard one to read as last time there were 3 independents standing, as well as a small Labour showing, and no Reform or Lib Dem.

    Looks like Reform has cost the Tories that one.
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