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Things can only get better (Starmer hopes) – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited December 17 in General
Things can only get better (Starmer hopes) – politicalbetting.com

New @IpsosUK Keir Starmer net satisfaction (-34) worst of any PM after 5 months in Ipsos history. Keir StarmerSatisfied 27%Dissatisfied 61%Net = -34https://t.co/IB69pGAOto pic.twitter.com/Pj9q8BPQfy

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    Hard cases often make bad law.

    This appears to be an exception - and more as importantly, they ran a trial to assess its effectiveness.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/17/marthas-rule-having-transformative-effect-nhs-england-data-shows
  • Huzzah.

    Downing Street has refused to rule out returning Britain to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice for the first time since Brexit as the price of Sir Keir Starmer’s reset with the bloc.

    At a meeting this week ministers from the European Union are expected to demand that the government agrees to follow new and existing European law on food and agricultural standards as part of an improved trade deal.

    Britain would also be obliged to follow rulings from the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in specific areas as part of a new trade and co-operation agreement.

    Both issues were a red line for the former Conservative government when the original trade and co-operation agreement was signed. It resulted in the imposition of new checks and restrictions on UK exports to the EU that are believed to have cost the economy £3 billion a year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-could-return-to-eu-laws-as-keir-starmer-seeks-trade-deal-s7dfl5p92
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    edited December 17
    It's all part of her cunning plan to fix immigration. No jobs, no immigrants, simples.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    ydoethur said:

    India’s chances of saving the follow on now officially zero.

    Oh, I'm good.

    I'm not going to predict a draw though...
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,351
    From this side of the timeline, it's a shame Truss didn't last 5 months to take her place in this survey.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,967
    Government collapses in Germany, government about to collapse in Canada, government somehow still not yet collapsed in Korea, Russian general blown up in Moscow, British politicians and minor royals still employing Chinese nationals, UK jobs data looking terrible. Oh, and England lose at cricket. Another slow news morning…
  • Huzzah.

    Downing Street has refused to rule out returning Britain to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice for the first time since Brexit as the price of Sir Keir Starmer’s reset with the bloc.

    At a meeting this week ministers from the European Union are expected to demand that the government agrees to follow new and existing European law on food and agricultural standards as part of an improved trade deal.

    Britain would also be obliged to follow rulings from the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in specific areas as part of a new trade and co-operation agreement.

    Both issues were a red line for the former Conservative government when the original trade and co-operation agreement was signed. It resulted in the imposition of new checks and restrictions on UK exports to the EU that are believed to have cost the economy £3 billion a year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-could-return-to-eu-laws-as-keir-starmer-seeks-trade-deal-s7dfl5p92

    Cue the populist right / mad Tories foaming on about how this would be the End Of Britain. True patriots will pay the stupidity tax.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,826
    edited December 17
    Labour have no idea about business. Never have and never will.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    Foxy said:

    It's all part of her cunning plan to fix immigration. No jobs, no immigrants, simples.
    Yes, just think if it as delivering the real purpose of Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575
    edited December 17
    Starmer has been underwhelming, sure, but i confess i did not see the lack of honeymoon coming. Blaming the last government usually buys you at least a few years of positive vibes, even if the country is in a bad state.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    No doubt this decision is heading for appeal

    Judge rules Trump’s conviction withstands Supreme Court immunity decision
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5043247-trump-hush-money-conviction-uphold/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    edited December 17
    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    ..Boris Johnson showed in 2019 it is possible to win an election with poor ratings so long as your opponent has even worse ratings...

    Except that next time around there will be another opponent in the mix, without the disadvantage of ever being in government.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    edited December 17
    So, after this latest disaster, Rohit Sharma must now be odds on to retire gracefully at the end of the series. While he has spent years not being dropped when he doesn't produce, there is only so long you can carry a player who's a passenger with the bat and a patent liability as captain and I don't think his pride will allow him to be sacked and dropped.

    Time for some consideration of the markets for next India captain.

    Bumrah - is the vice-captain, and the team looked a completely different unit with him in charge. His win in among a series of catastrophic losses and skin-of-the-teeth draws under Rohit suggest he has what it takes. Drawbacks - is a bowler and although his fitness is remarkable he won't play every match.

    Rishabh Pant - popular, famous, clearly very tough, in with the board. Drawback - keeps wicket and as Dhoni showed, keeping wicket, captaining and being vital with the bat is a lot to deal with.

    Shubman Gill - young, ardent, in a career on the up. Drawback - still rather young and could do with a few more runs.

    KL Rahul - vastly experienced, respected, could manage a transitory period. Drawback - not sure of his place in the team.

    Bumrah would probably be the smart choice, with Pant as his vice captain and Gill being carefully groomed for the long term succession - a bit like Australia with Cummins, Smith and Head. But the BCCI is, like the Civil Service, prone to doing what it thinks is right rather than what would be right, so I would say Pant is probably the favourite.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    Love the picture accompanying this.

    It is inconceivable that the federal government has no answers nor has taken any action to get to the bottom of the unidentified drones. The fecklessness of this administration was on display last year when a Chinese surveillance balloon was allowed to fly over the entire continental United States before being shot down. Such should be viewed as a threat to our nation and citizens and action is long overdue. We have recourses and assets in our arsenal to get answers, but I suppose Ukraine is more important to the White House. January 20th can’t come soon enough...
    https://x.com/SenMastriano/status/1868794734530953444
  • Come 2026, I will have served 15 years as an MSP. The time will be right for me to move on.

    As the son of immigrants, I could never have imagined the incredible political journey I have been on. I feel blessed.

    Thank you to all of those who have supported me over the years.


    https://x.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1868930492059517379
  • Pay growth jumps for first time in more than a year

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkx36dpzmxo

    Since we’re doing Tory partisanship again, why don’t I balance things out a bit.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    And how much down to an orchestrated campaign by telegraph etc
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    It's all part of her cunning plan to fix immigration. No jobs, no immigrants, simples.
    Yes, just think if it as delivering the real purpose of Brexit.
    So job vacancies are higher than pre-Covid, but have been in a slump for 21/2 years.
    Is this just not the post-Covid rehiring tailing off?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,940

    Labour have no idea about business. Never have and never will.
    I think it's worth having a looking at the data since 2022 before you get all excited. If you think it's been bad under Starmer...

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/december2024
  • I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620

    Huzzah.

    Downing Street has refused to rule out returning Britain to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice for the first time since Brexit as the price of Sir Keir Starmer’s reset with the bloc.

    At a meeting this week ministers from the European Union are expected to demand that the government agrees to follow new and existing European law on food and agricultural standards as part of an improved trade deal.

    Britain would also be obliged to follow rulings from the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in specific areas as part of a new trade and co-operation agreement.

    Both issues were a red line for the former Conservative government when the original trade and co-operation agreement was signed. It resulted in the imposition of new checks and restrictions on UK exports to the EU that are believed to have cost the economy £3 billion a year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-could-return-to-eu-laws-as-keir-starmer-seeks-trade-deal-s7dfl5p92

    Cue the populist right / mad Tories foaming on about how this would be the End Of Britain. True patriots will pay the stupidity tax.
    If companies want to export to the EU then they'll have to comply with EU standards, you can see it with the quiet abandonment of the UK standard mark prior to the GE. EU standards are a global recognised standard that are cited in technical specifications, you can have your own mark but it'll have to be equivalent to a global standard and thus becomes redundant, Any deviation just creates inefficiency.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    Broadcaster Kim Ou-joon claims martial law included plan to assassinate Han Dong-hoon

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=388403&utm_source=taboola
    Broadcaster and YouTuber Kim Ou-joon, known to have been on the list of potential detainees during the short-lived martial law on Dec. 3 and 4, said Friday that he received a tip about an order to assassinate Han Dong-hoon, leader of the ruling People Power Party.

    He said that the first piece of information he received was about an "assassination squad being mobilized," which he subsequently reported to Rep. Kim Byung-joo of the opposition Democratic Party of Korea (DPK).

    Speaking as a witness at the National Assembly's Science, ICT, Broadcasting, and Communications Committee hearing, Kim said that Rep. Kim was the first to publicly mention the assassination squad during an MBC radio appearance.

    Kim claimed he was the source of that tip. He recalled that when he told Rep. Kim, the lawmaker was initially skeptical but later confirmed its validity after a few hours.

    "The information I am about to share has not been fully verified," Kim said, before detailing allegations regarding plans reportedly tied to martial law. "There was a plan within the martial law forces to assassinate Han Dong-hoon while he was being detained and transported."

    Additionally, he shared information about other alleged plans: one involved staging an attack on the transport units holding figures like Cho Kuk, former leader of the minor opposition Rebuilding Korea Party, Yang Jung-chul, former chief of the Institute for Democracy, and Kim Ou-joon himself, to make it appear as though they were being rescued.

    According to Kim, the scheme also involved burying North Korean military uniforms at specific locations, which would later be "discovered" and used to frame North Korea as the perpetrator...


    What's worrying is that this isn't completely incredible (though I'm sceptical).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    Nigelb said:

    Love the picture accompanying this.

    It is inconceivable that the federal government has no answers nor has taken any action to get to the bottom of the unidentified drones. The fecklessness of this administration was on display last year when a Chinese surveillance balloon was allowed to fly over the entire continental United States before being shot down. Such should be viewed as a threat to our nation and citizens and action is long overdue. We have recourses and assets in our arsenal to get answers, but I suppose Ukraine is more important to the White House. January 20th can’t come soon enough...
    https://x.com/SenMastriano/status/1868794734530953444

    Are they trying to get a loose end TIEd up?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    The result of 14 years of saying austerity is unnecessary and counter-productive. Chickens coming home to roost.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,984
    I’ll offer the obvious thought it’s a difficult time to be in Government wherever you are and whatever your political philosophy.

    I’d also say the media revolution allows those who are opposed to set the agenda via social media and other outlets as those who are unhappy or opposed always shout louder than those in support.

    Societal, demographic and environmental changes and challenges confront all Governments and no one has any answers and those who have proposed “solutions” often fail to recognize the impracticality and upheaval such solutions would produce.

    It will be fascinating to see if the Trump second administration, especially if it enacts radical economic and social policies as it seeks to redefine the role of Government and its relationship with the citizen, is successful as if it is we will see such policies rapidly followed by most of the rest of the west.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,413
    Taz said:
    That reporting is a bit dated. The WHO are coming around to this being existing diseases, notably malaria, hitting kids with high rates of malnutrition: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/malaria/initial-samples-dr-congo-unexplained-outbreak-positive-malaria

    Seasoned pandemic watchers are back to avian flu being the #1 threat.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,325

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    I thought rightwing brexiters were all in favour of wages going up because fewer immigrants.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    Nigelb said:

    Broadcaster Kim Ou-joon claims martial law included plan to assassinate Han Dong-hoon

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=388403&utm_source=taboola
    Broadcaster and YouTuber Kim Ou-joon, known to have been on the list of potential detainees during the short-lived martial law on Dec. 3 and 4, said Friday that he received a tip about an order to assassinate Han Dong-hoon, leader of the ruling People Power Party.

    He said that the first piece of information he received was about an "assassination squad being mobilized," which he subsequently reported to Rep. Kim Byung-joo of the opposition Democratic Party of Korea (DPK).

    Speaking as a witness at the National Assembly's Science, ICT, Broadcasting, and Communications Committee hearing, Kim said that Rep. Kim was the first to publicly mention the assassination squad during an MBC radio appearance.

    Kim claimed he was the source of that tip. He recalled that when he told Rep. Kim, the lawmaker was initially skeptical but later confirmed its validity after a few hours.

    "The information I am about to share has not been fully verified," Kim said, before detailing allegations regarding plans reportedly tied to martial law. "There was a plan within the martial law forces to assassinate Han Dong-hoon while he was being detained and transported."

    Additionally, he shared information about other alleged plans: one involved staging an attack on the transport units holding figures like Cho Kuk, former leader of the minor opposition Rebuilding Korea Party, Yang Jung-chul, former chief of the Institute for Democracy, and Kim Ou-joon himself, to make it appear as though they were being rescued.

    According to Kim, the scheme also involved burying North Korean military uniforms at specific locations, which would later be "discovered" and used to frame North Korea as the perpetrator...


    What's worrying is that this isn't completely incredible (though I'm sceptical).

    The ruling party, of course, dismiss it.
    It might just be that the President was just too incompetent to carry it out - as with the coup itself.

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=388621
    ..He added that there were further plans to use armed North Korean drones, plant North Korean military uniforms as fake evidence and trigger U.S. military strikes by targeting American soldiers.

    However, a DPK internal document obtained by the Hankook Ilbo on Tuesday concluded that Kim's claims lack credibility. It stated that the narrative appears constructed by blending limited past knowledge with exaggerated and fictional details, exploiting the confidentiality of institutional information.

    The document specifically questioned the feasibility of using weaponized drones, explaining that most drones globally, including those deployed by North Korea, are designed for kamikaze attacks rather than carrying weapons. North Korean drones known to be capable of weapon attachments have not been proven operational and would be impractical for covert missions due to their large size.

    Further doubts were raised about claims of disguising the operation as a North Korean scheme by planting military uniforms, with the document pointing out that North Korean agents typically avoid such tactics, instead using civilian or allied military clothing for infiltration.

    While the document largely dismissed Kim's claims, it refrained from making conclusions about some parts of the narrative, citing a lack of detailed information.

    Kim acknowledged that his statements were based on unverified intelligence, sparking mixed reactions within the DPK.

    Some figures, such as former four-star Gen. Kim Byeong-joo, supported the possibility of the claims, saying they were worth serious consideration. Others, including lawmaker Bu Seung-chan, expressed doubts, questioning whether such intricate plans could realistically have been developed and executed...
  • Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    I thought rightwing brexiters were all in favour of wages going up because fewer immigrants.
    Of course we're in favour of wages going up, but though investment and productivity. Pushing down wages through immigration doesnt work.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    The domestic workforce is going to decrease over time because of demographics.

    So we can either have good employment growth or no/low immigration but not both. It is as simple as that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Love the picture accompanying this.

    It is inconceivable that the federal government has no answers nor has taken any action to get to the bottom of the unidentified drones. The fecklessness of this administration was on display last year when a Chinese surveillance balloon was allowed to fly over the entire continental United States before being shot down. Such should be viewed as a threat to our nation and citizens and action is long overdue. We have recourses and assets in our arsenal to get answers, but I suppose Ukraine is more important to the White House. January 20th can’t come soon enough...
    https://x.com/SenMastriano/status/1868794734530953444

    Are they trying to get a loose end TIEd up?
    His statement lacks Force.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,598
    edited December 17

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    Good morning

    It would not have favoured the public sector at the cost of business

    Terrible jobs prospects going into 2025 and high wage rises delaying cuts in interest rates

    I would also agree with @stodge at 8.17am who has a sensible analysis of why the government is so unpopular
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited December 17

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Love the picture accompanying this.

    It is inconceivable that the federal government has no answers nor has taken any action to get to the bottom of the unidentified drones. The fecklessness of this administration was on display last year when a Chinese surveillance balloon was allowed to fly over the entire continental United States before being shot down. Such should be viewed as a threat to our nation and citizens and action is long overdue. We have recourses and assets in our arsenal to get answers, but I suppose Ukraine is more important to the White House. January 20th can’t come soon enough...
    https://x.com/SenMastriano/status/1868794734530953444

    Are they trying to get a loose end TIEd up?
    His statement lacks Force.
    Although you can imagine Trump saying 'The Republic will be reorganised into the First Galactic Empire, for safe and secure society.'
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,488
    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    They are useless, woodentops and listening to Rayner last night she is thicker than than their two thick heads together, we are doomed.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    The domestic workforce is going to decrease over time because of demographics.

    So we can either have good employment growth or no/low immigration but not both. It is as simple as that.
    If AI is going to close down the number of jobs people predict we can shrink the workforce s and not need immigratuion. Basic productivity says we will need less people.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    stodge said:

    I’ll offer the obvious thought it’s a difficult time to be in Government wherever you are and whatever your political philosophy.

    I’d also say the media revolution allows those who are opposed to set the agenda via social media and other outlets as those who are unhappy or opposed always shout louder than those in support.

    Societal, demographic and environmental changes and challenges confront all Governments and no one has any answers and those who have proposed “solutions” often fail to recognize the impracticality and upheaval such solutions would produce.

    It will be fascinating to see if the Trump second administration, especially if it enacts radical economic and social policies as it seeks to redefine the role of Government and its relationship with the citizen, is successful as if it is we will see such policies rapidly followed by most of the rest of the west.

    It will be successful in Trump's terms.

    He and his mates will be able to nick loads of cash, and lots of little people will be screwed but they don't matter.

    Plus the weakening of the state means they will never face charges for what they do.

    And I'm sure many world leaders will consider that a very attractive model to follow, although really Putin beat him to the creation of it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,488

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    You flatter them Alan
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140
    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    So a definite improvement on their predecessors.
    They've been officially shelved.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    The domestic workforce is going to decrease over time because of demographics.

    So we can either have good employment growth or no/low immigration but not both. It is as simple as that.
    If AI is going to close down the number of jobs people predict we can shrink the workforce s and not need immigratuion. Basic productivity says we will need less people.
    Then don't complain but cheer when employment stats are weak?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    So a definite improvement on their predecessors.
    same old same old.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,144
    Ukraine claims responsibility for the motorcycle incident
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    The domestic workforce is going to decrease over time because of demographics.

    So we can either have good employment growth or no/low immigration but not both. It is as simple as that.
    If AI is going to close down the number of jobs people predict we can shrink the workforce s and not need immigratuion. Basic productivity says we will need less people.
    Except given the choice of employing locals or immigrants - most companies go for the immigrants.

    There is a fired Economics Professor who demonstrated such things last week when looking at Red Wall areas and immigration...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    The increase in taxes was primarily driven by Labours wish to fund its projects hence the fictitious £22 billion.
  • eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    I think we are going to find out very soon in the US just what happens when huge cuts in public spending and taxes are engineered by Trump

    Watch this space
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    What other options exist?

    The reality is that all Government cabinets are going to be 2nd or 3rd rate because few good people go into politics nowadays - it ain't worth the stress..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    edited December 17
    IanB2 said:

    Ukraine claims responsibility for the motorcycle incident

    Have they initiated an explosive new cycle of the war?
  • eek said:

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    What other options exist?

    The reality is that all Government cabinets are going to be 2nd or 3rd rate because few good people go into politics nowadays - it ain't worth the stress..
    I couldn't agree more
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    I think we are going to find out very soon in the US just what happens when huge cuts in public spending and taxes are engineered by Trump

    Watch this space
    Spending rose rapidly under Trump last time. His job is to hand out billions to other billionaires whilst pretending to make cuts.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
    So you've saved £100-500m. now where are the rest of the savings coming from?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,488

    Come 2026, I will have served 15 years as an MSP. The time will be right for me to move on.

    As the son of immigrants, I could never have imagined the incredible political journey I have been on. I feel blessed.

    Thank you to all of those who have supported me over the years.


    https://x.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1868930492059517379

    One total arsehole gone , hopefully many to follow
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,967

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    The increase in taxes was primarily driven by Labours wish to fund its projects hence the fictitious £22 billion.
    Have to pay for Ed Miliband’s carbon storage scheme somehow.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140
    eek said:

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
    So you've saved £100-500m. now where are the rest of the savings coming from?
    Staff christmas parties? Centralise purchasing of stationery? Am I nearly there yet?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited December 17
    eek said:

    Taz said:
    Yes, I read it. Apparently she is going to increase employment as employers close down jobs.
    That's a hard circle tosquare
    The domestic workforce is going to decrease over time because of demographics.

    So we can either have good employment growth or no/low immigration but not both. It is as simple as that.
    If AI is going to close down the number of jobs people predict we can shrink the workforce s and not need immigratuion. Basic productivity says we will need less people.
    Except given the choice of employing locals or immigrants - most companies go for the immigrants.

    There is a fired Economics Professor who demonstrated such things last week when looking at Red Wall areas and immigration...
    Which is of course part of the problem we need to put the locals back in to work - 9 million or so of them at the last count.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,956

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    So a definite improvement on their predecessors.
    That's a low bar.
  • Affordable homes held up as providers cannot afford them

    Rayner waves a magic wand but reality is very different

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/17/17400-affordable-homes-england-wales-not-being-built-lack-of-housing-association-money?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,325
    edited December 17

    eek said:

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
    So you've saved £100-500m. now where are the rest of the savings coming from?
    Staff christmas parties? Centralise purchasing of stationery? Am I nearly there yet?
    What Christmas parties? Self-funded by staff in the public sector, in contrast to much ofd the private sector.

    And right-wingers banned centralised purchasing in favour of local contracting, remember, becayse it was supposedly more efficient.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140

    Affordable homes held up as providers cannot afford them

    Rayner waves a magic wand but reality is very different

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/17/17400-affordable-homes-england-wales-not-being-built-lack-of-housing-association-money?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Restock council homes with a massive govt building plan also including significant training and apprenticeships so we have enough builders and trades for the next couple of decades rather than the shortage of the last decade.
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 270
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    How much is down to the flat-footed approach of Starmer and Reeves?

    How much down to a volatile electorate, who oppose and criticise everything?

    And how much down to starting with no political capital (and no financial capital either)?

    For some, it's as simple as this government being one they opposed on general principle. Many of those are on the right, shocked at being ignored for the first time in their lives. Others are on the left, cross that they're not getting everything they want. Bluntly, they're not worth the government fighting for. "Cons 2024 voter doesn't like this government" really isn't news.

    For some, it is that the government didn't make a smooth start. Only a nitwit would say it did. But that it much more fixable. Partly by Starmer, Reeves etc growing into the role, but also by employing better scriptwriters behind the scenes.

    But in many ways, the situation is what it always was. The country is in a state, the only plausible way out is a nervous shuffle, it will take time to improve, the public are in no mood to accept purple prose about the sunlit uplands, even if Starmer did purple prose.

    The big picture, meanwhile, is that nothing important has changed. Starmer has few, if any, fans. But, given the alternatives, he'll have to do. And if he can say in 2028/9 "I did", his party will be fine.
    His cabinet is second rate.
    What other options exist?

    The reality is that all Government cabinets are going to be 2nd or 3rd rate because few good people go into politics nowadays - it ain't worth the stress..
    Having followed a 5th rate at best Cabinet the likes of Rayner (Dowden) / Cooper (Cleverley) / Phillipson (Keegan)/ Healy (Shapps including aliases) / Streeting (Atkins) / Miliband (Coutinho) / Jones (Trott) / McFadden / Kendall / Kyle (Stride) / Reynolds (Bad enoch) / Mahmood (Chalk) / Nandy (Fraser) would be considerable improvements on their immediate predecessors
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575
    Nigelb said:

    No doubt this decision is heading for appeal

    Judge rules Trump’s conviction withstands Supreme Court immunity decision
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5043247-trump-hush-money-conviction-uphold/

    Its hard to see how that one could be immune even with the Supreme Courts ruling, but i imagine theyll find a way.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,403
    eek said:

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
    So you've saved £100-500m. now where are the rest of the savings coming from?
    Look after the 10s of millions and the billions take care of themselves.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
    So you've saved £100-500m. now where are the rest of the savings coming from?
    Staff christmas parties? Centralise purchasing of stationery? Am I nearly there yet?
    What Christmas parties? Self-funded by staff in the public sector, in contrast to much ofd the private sector.

    And right-wingers banned centralised purchasing in favour of local contracting, remember, becayse it was supposedly more efficient.
    Both centralised purchasing and local contracting can be used to save future money on a spreadsheet. You just need to state it boldly and decrease the number. By the time anyone founds it if it worked or not, you should be in a different job.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236
    We're seeing the anti incumbent effect when Starmer hasn't had time to be an incumbent.

    Anti incumbent in advance as it were
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    Red tape, bureaucracy and diversity officers? Surely that is easily enough?
    You forgot 'nothing, thanks to unspecified "reforms" which solve all problems'.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Good morning, everyone.

    I think we all knew that general wasn't a Putin victim. No windows were involved.
  • Affordable homes held up as providers cannot afford them

    Rayner waves a magic wand but reality is very different

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/17/17400-affordable-homes-england-wales-not-being-built-lack-of-housing-association-money?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Restock council homes with a massive govt building plan also including significant training and apprenticeships so we have enough builders and trades for the next couple of decades rather than the shortage of the last decade.
    But that does not address affordability of these homes by the providers
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,940

    Affordable homes held up as providers cannot afford them

    Rayner waves a magic wand but reality is very different

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/17/17400-affordable-homes-england-wales-not-being-built-lack-of-housing-association-money?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Restock council homes with a massive govt building plan also including significant training and apprenticeships so we have enough builders and trades for the next couple of decades rather than the shortage of the last decade.
    The fact is private developers will only build detached housing in areas of high demand, going by construction figures in Scotland. The median price of a new build is £300,000 versus £185,000 for the rest of the market, and most of those are in and around Edinburgh.

    (I note that there has been a significant increase in vacancies in real estate, looking at the ONS report referenced by the Telegraph - so Labour's reforms/mood music do appear to be having an effect)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140

    Affordable homes held up as providers cannot afford them

    Rayner waves a magic wand but reality is very different

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/17/17400-affordable-homes-england-wales-not-being-built-lack-of-housing-association-money?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Restock council homes with a massive govt building plan also including significant training and apprenticeships so we have enough builders and trades for the next couple of decades rather than the shortage of the last decade.
    But that does not address affordability of these homes by the providers
    Govt can afford them. It can borrow cheaper than companies or housing trusts and in the medium term starts to save money by providing accommodation itself rather than paying landlords housing benefit.
  • stodge said:

    Apologies if this has been covered but Trudeau’s Liberals have suffered a Sunakian drubbing in a federal by election in the beautifully named Cloverdale - Langley City riding.

    The riding was unexpectedly lost by the Conservatives in the 2021 election but Tamara Jensen, the unsuccessful Conservative candidate, has had their revenge on the Liberals turning a 3-point loss into a 49-point lead on a 26% swing.

    That’s about double the swing in the current federal polling which shows the Conservatives set to win a landslide at the next election on a swing of 12-13% from the September 2021 election.

    Our son and Canadian daughter in law in Vancouver would agree
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,403

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    I don't think Hunt would have specifically raised employer NI. Other taxes, maybe but not E'er NI to the crippling degree Reeves has.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,828
    FF43 said:

    We're seeing the anti incumbent effect when Starmer hasn't had time to be an incumbent.

    Anti incumbent in advance as it were

    The odd part is he didn't really promise much - so it's not broken promises as such.

    The public must be particularly febrile these days.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,166
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    LOL

    yes, but I dont think it would have been by £40 billion.
    love to know what they would actually have cut - because they had run out of never-never options and the banks would need to see something actually being done...
    The increase in taxes was primarily driven by Labours wish to fund its projects hence the fictitious £22 billion.
    Have to pay for Ed Miliband’s carbon storage scheme somehow.
    Which was, of course, also Sunak's carbon storage scheme.
    In this case, Alanbrooke is quite right about same old, same old.

    He just thinks the Tories would have left their projects unfunded.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869
    Good morning everyone, and thanks for the header.

    Being Canadian by common acclamation, do we have a way of betting on Canadian politics sensibly?

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,984

    stodge said:

    Apologies if this has been covered but Trudeau’s Liberals have suffered a Sunakian drubbing in a federal by election in the beautifully named Cloverdale - Langley City riding.

    The riding was unexpectedly lost by the Conservatives in the 2021 election but Tamara Jensen, the unsuccessful Conservative candidate, has had their revenge on the Liberals turning a 3-point loss into a 49-point lead on a 26% swing.

    That’s about double the swing in the current federal polling which shows the Conservatives set to win a landslide at the next election on a swing of 12-13% from the September 2021 election.

    Our son and Canadian daughter in law in Vancouver would agree
    The parallels with the UK are obvious. Poilievre has capitalised on all the post-pandemic issues which have blighted every other country and it’s clear Trudeau, once incredibly popular, is now widely loathed.

    The Conservatives will win big as Starmer did but how effective they will be and whether they actually have any kind of answers to Canada’s problems is far from clear.
  • IanB2 said:

    Ukraine claims responsibility for the motorcycle incident

    I always said T.E. Lawrence was murdered, thanks to Ukraine for confirming it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,212
    carnforth said:

    FF43 said:

    We're seeing the anti incumbent effect when Starmer hasn't had time to be an incumbent.

    Anti incumbent in advance as it were

    The odd part is he didn't really promise much - so it's not broken promises as such.

    The public must be particularly febrile these days.
    I think the public is rather just not particularly loyal to any one political brand at the moment. That's kind of encouraging if it means we're a less partisan country. Quite the contrast with the US.

    Meanwhile the Lib Dems continue to "pootle along"/"languish" in the low double digits as if the election never happened. The least volatile support base of all.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140
    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    FF43 said:

    We're seeing the anti incumbent effect when Starmer hasn't had time to be an incumbent.

    Anti incumbent in advance as it were

    The odd part is he didn't really promise much - so it's not broken promises as such.

    The public must be particularly febrile these days.
    I think the public is rather just not particularly loyal to any one political brand at the moment. That's kind of encouraging if it means we're a less partisan country. Quite the contrast with the US.

    Meanwhile the Lib Dems continue to "pootle along"/"languish" in the low double digits as if the election never happened. The least volatile support base of all.
    Its time for the LDs to start putting forward a positive vision for the country (yes I know the others havent bothered either).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Humza Yousaf to step down at next election

    How will Scotland survive ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Disastrous poll for Starmer, he is now even more unpopular than Sunak and Brown.

    Boris also may have had a net negative rating when he became PM but he had a 38% favourable rating, clearly enough to win a majority under FPTP. Starmer's 27% favourable rating now though is far below the level needed to win a majority
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    FF43 said:

    We're seeing the anti incumbent effect when Starmer hasn't had time to be an incumbent.

    Anti incumbent in advance as it were

    The odd part is he didn't really promise much - so it's not broken promises as such.

    The public must be particularly febrile these days.
    I think the public is rather just not particularly loyal to any one political brand at the moment. That's kind of encouraging if it means we're a less partisan country. Quite the contrast with the US.

    Meanwhile the Lib Dems continue to "pootle along"/"languish" in the low double digits as if the election never happened. The least volatile support base of all.
    Even in the US the median voter is an Independent not GOP or Democrat. They just swung to Trump this year having backed Biden in 2020
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869
    Good morning everyone, and thanks for the header.

    Being Canadian by common acclamation, do we have a way of betting on Canadian politics sensibly, including named ministers?

    Election next year, and at present best odds are Liberal 11/1, Conservative 1/9 afaics (Oddschecker).

    Not good enough for a dabble, but it is looking volatile with Mr Trump jumping up and down.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    FF43 said:

    We're seeing the anti incumbent effect when Starmer hasn't had time to be an incumbent.

    Anti incumbent in advance as it were

    The odd part is he didn't really promise much - so it's not broken promises as such.

    The public must be particularly febrile these days.
    I think the public is rather just not particularly loyal to any one political brand at the moment. That's kind of encouraging if it means we're a less partisan country. Quite the contrast with the US.

    Meanwhile the Lib Dems continue to "pootle along"/"languish" in the low double digits as if the election never happened. The least volatile support base of all.
    There is a downside as well to a lack of loyalty to political brands. Firstly because it displays the inadequacy of the brands themselves in conveying a philosophy, principle and policy deal which is credible, achievable and distinctive. Secondly it suggests they are all somehow the same. Thirdly it gives extra space to a Trumpian demagogue to work.

    I think many on PB feel homeless politically. I am one, after a lifetime of moderate Tory support. I think this is sub optimal.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140
    HYUFD said:

    Disastrous poll for Starmer, he is now even more unpopular than Sunak and Brown.

    Boris also may have had a net negative rating when he became PM but he had a 38% favourable rating, clearly enough to win a majority under FPTP. Starmer's 27% favourable rating now though is far below the level needed to win a majority

    He already has one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Apologies if this has been covered but Trudeau’s Liberals have suffered a Sunakian drubbing in a federal by election in the beautifully named Cloverdale - Langley City riding.

    The riding was unexpectedly lost by the Conservatives in the 2021 election but Tamara Jensen, the unsuccessful Conservative candidate, has had their revenge on the Liberals turning a 3-point loss into a 49-point lead on a 26% swing.

    That’s about double the swing in the current federal polling which shows the Conservatives set to win a landslide at the next election on a swing of 12-13% from the September 2021 election.

    Our son and Canadian daughter in law in Vancouver would agree
    The parallels with the UK are obvious. Poilievre has capitalised on all the post-pandemic issues which have blighted every other country and it’s clear Trudeau, once incredibly popular, is now widely loathed.

    The Conservatives will win big as Starmer did but how effective they will be and whether they actually have any kind of answers to Canada’s problems is far from clear.
    Poilievre has committed to build new homes, especially around stations, cut taxes and regulations and start to cut back on Canada's assisted dying legislation which has now expanded to even include the mentally ill and non terminally ill under Trudeau
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everyone, and thanks for the header.

    Being Canadian by common acclamation, do we have a way of betting on Canadian politics sensibly?

    Yes.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/11/16/the-conservatives-are-the-1-10-favourites-to-win-the-next-general-election/
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,826
    edited December 17

    I feel like we’ve forgotten that if the Tories had been re-elected, they too would be raising taxes.

    But they weren't...its Labour ..who always raise taxes... doing it... so suck it up....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    theProle said:

    Dopermean said:

    Huzzah.

    Downing Street has refused to rule out returning Britain to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice for the first time since Brexit as the price of Sir Keir Starmer’s reset with the bloc.

    At a meeting this week ministers from the European Union are expected to demand that the government agrees to follow new and existing European law on food and agricultural standards as part of an improved trade deal.

    Britain would also be obliged to follow rulings from the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in specific areas as part of a new trade and co-operation agreement.

    Both issues were a red line for the former Conservative government when the original trade and co-operation agreement was signed. It resulted in the imposition of new checks and restrictions on UK exports to the EU that are believed to have cost the economy £3 billion a year.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-could-return-to-eu-laws-as-keir-starmer-seeks-trade-deal-s7dfl5p92

    Cue the populist right / mad Tories foaming on about how this would be the End Of Britain. True patriots will pay the stupidity tax.
    If companies want to export to the EU then they'll have to comply with EU standards, you can see it with the quiet abandonment of the UK standard mark prior to the GE. EU standards are a global recognised standard that are cited in technical specifications, you can have your own mark but it'll have to be equivalent to a global standard and thus becomes redundant, Any deviation just creates inefficiency.
    The problem is that the EU regulations are often very poorly thought out and badly written. Most stuff we make is not for export, but internal consumption. No-one has ever disputed that to export to the EU we would have to meet their standards (their gaff, their rules!), the issue is that because their standards are often stupid and ultimately wealth destroying (e.g. I've spent many thousands of pounds and wasted countless hours completely pointlessly to comply with bits of the Pressure Equipment Directive which are plain wrong) we shouldn't be applying them for products made in the UK for UK consumption. That savings from regulating UK stuff intelligently* should be vastly more than the quoted £3 billion costs to exporters. If Starmer takes us back into compliance with all EU regulations, he's even more stupid that I thought he was.

    *This does require that we regulate intelligently - unfortunately the last government mainly just transposed EU directives into UK law anyway, rather than considering them on their merits.
    This illustrates the insoluble problem. Both being in and out of the EU is, for the UK, highly unsatisfactory.

    Very few were given the choices they wanted in 2016. What most wanted was this. Best: an EU which had been shaped differently by the UK being given referendums earlier. Second best: A reformed EU.

    The first was unsayable by mainstream politicos, as they had all been complicit in this epic fail. The second, we concluded, was not going to happen.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    Disastrous poll for Starmer, he is now even more unpopular than Sunak and Brown.

    Boris also may have had a net negative rating when he became PM but he had a 38% favourable rating, clearly enough to win a majority under FPTP. Starmer's 27% favourable rating now though is far below the level needed to win a majority

    He already has one.
    Which he will almost certainly lose at the next GE on current polls
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,140
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Disastrous poll for Starmer, he is now even more unpopular than Sunak and Brown.

    Boris also may have had a net negative rating when he became PM but he had a 38% favourable rating, clearly enough to win a majority under FPTP. Starmer's 27% favourable rating now though is far below the level needed to win a majority

    He already has one.
    Which he will almost certainly lose at the next GE on current polls
    And may win or may lose when you take into account they are just current polls. The downfall of the Boris govt was partly an obsession with current polls rather than doing any of the government work.
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