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Father Christmas is being cancelled in the UK. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited December 16 in General
Father Christmas is being cancelled in the UK. – politicalbetting.com

"Father Christmas" is being replaced in British English by "Santa Claus". % who use [x] more…AllFather Xmas: 43% (-8 from 2017)Santa: 45% (+9)18-24 yr oldsFather Xmas: 21% (-12)Santa: 62% (+12)65+ yr oldsFather Xmas: 60% (-6)Santa: 25% (+7)[From the festive… pic.twitter.com/a8rIjRtLvk

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,896
    Bah humbug!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869
    edited December 16
    2nd Having been out most of the day, and just walked into the kitchen, I am the Lord of Slight Mistiming.

    Header: I don't see this as a problem (btw).

    Is one of these mad Yankee Doodle drone hunters going to shoot him down? Venison on Christmas Day for nine extended families. And elves and Santa for the inhabitants of Somerset.
  • I've always been a Santa man myself, Father Christmas always had bad vibes for me, not as bad as Daddy Christmas.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,413
    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 701

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    St. Nicholas is the Patron saint of Russia.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    No love for Chris Kringle then...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,591
    edited December 16
    Given people were talking clothing manufacture on the previous thread, this podcast series is ten years old, but remains an absolutely brilliant examination of the impact of globalization and how garments are made:

    https://www.npr.org/series/248799434/planet-moneys-t-shirt-project

  • SandraMc said:

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    St. Nicholas is the Patron saint of Russia.
    But St Andrew appears on their Navy flag.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,158

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    So that's why we eat Turkey on Christmas Day.

    It all falls into place.
  • Court has allowed the naming of the alleged spy as Yang Tengbo

    Gang Net Boy
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869
    edited December 16
    SandraMc said:

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    St. Nicholas is the Patron saint of Russia.
    And the sailors and the fishermen.

    And ... says Wiki:

    Children
    coopers
    travellers
    merchants
    toymakers
    broadcasters
    the falsely accused
    repentant thieves
    brewers
    pharmacists
    archers
    pawnbrokers
    unmarried people
    Prilep (where's Prilep, @Leon ?)
    Aberdeen
    Galway
    Albania
    Greece
    Liverpool
    Bari
    Čilipi
    Siggiewi
    Moscow
    Amsterdam
    Lorraine
    Royal School of Church Music
    Duchy of Lorraine
    students in various cities and countries around Europe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    FPT

    Off topic
    Sky news really annoy me when they flick over to the great Orange one when I'm trying to follow the Letby news conference

    Well, I've been wondering if she had the same lawyers the Orange Haired One had, given how peculiar they seem, but I wasn't expecting the link to be that specific.
  • I've always been a Santa man myself, Father Christmas always had bad vibes for me, not as bad as Daddy Christmas.

    :innocent:

    image
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,350
    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,598
    edited December 16
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Off topic
    Sky news really annoy me when they flick over to the great Orange one when I'm trying to follow the Letby news conference

    Well, I've been wondering if she had the same lawyers the Orange Haired One had, given how peculiar they seem, but I wasn't expecting the link to be that specific.
    Trump just announced cut of 2 trillion from federal budget and tax cuts for all
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869

    I've always been a Santa man myself, Father Christmas always had bad vibes for me, not as bad as Daddy Christmas.

    :innocent:

    image
    Isn't that numbered in the wrong direction?

    Are there 734 Russian versions? Ideally 735 will have mad Vlad featuring,
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Off topic
    Sky news really annoy me when they flick over to the great Orange one when I'm trying to follow the Letby news conference

    Well, I've been wondering if she had the same lawyers the Orange Haired One had, given how peculiar they seem, but I wasn't expecting the link to be that specific.
    Trump just announced cut of 2 trillion from federal budget and tax cuts for all
    Where do they apply for the free unicorns that he'll be throwing in?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,256
    In the future, the answer to the question about whether Die Hard is a Christmas film will be, "What's Christmas?"
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,372
    Every day, the world gets a little worse... :(
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    Off topic
    Sky news really annoy me when they flick over to the great Orange one when I'm trying to follow the Letby news conference

    Well, I've been wondering if she had the same lawyers the Orange Haired One had, given how peculiar they seem, but I wasn't expecting the link to be that specific.
    Trump just announced cut of 2 trillion from federal budget and tax cuts for all
    Where do they apply for the free unicorns that he'll be throwing in?
    I expect a lot of people are going to have to accept Triump is going to be the headline act in the media throughout 2025 and beyond !!!!!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053
    As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    Just need to be careful of reflections in low sunlight affecting drivers. It won’t affect driverless vehicles, obviously.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,325
    edited December 16

    As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?

    Same also in the parts of the world, or at least Scotland, where we have brown sauce with our haddock suppers.

    Yet more Jocksplaining on PB, like the time we were all accused of marrying our first cousins.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    MattW said:

    I've always been a Santa man myself, Father Christmas always had bad vibes for me, not as bad as Daddy Christmas.

    :innocent:

    image
    Isn't that numbered in the wrong direction?

    Are there 734 Russian versions? Ideally 735 will have mad Vlad featuring,
    Here's how it should look (I guess you could argue floors go up, but Gruber fell from the 30th floor, so it still doesn't work):


  • As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?

    Santa in this part of Yorkshire too.
  • This is an utter scandal, I am so sad that Alex Salmond died before it was released.

    EXC: Info commissioner tells ScotGov that in 3 year legal battle over docs abt Nicola Sturgeon’s conduct during Alex Salmond inquiry, ministers

    - submitted “factual discrepancies” in evidence
    - delayed unwinnable case before misrepresenting facts to media


    https://x.com/kieranpandrews/status/1868590576905658512?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g
  • viewcode said:

    Every day, the world gets a little worse... :(

    Second worst thing anybody has ever said about my threads.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    I've always been a Santa man myself, Father Christmas always had bad vibes for me, not as bad as Daddy Christmas.

    :innocent:

    image
    Isn't that numbered in the wrong direction?

    Are there 734 Russian versions? Ideally 735 will have mad Vlad featuring,
    Here's how it should look (I guess you could argue floors go up, but Gruber fell from the 30th floor, so it still doesn't work):


    With the Russian version, Santa drops to the ground when he passes the 9th floor.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,102
    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    EICISoSECC
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053
    edited December 16

    This is an utter scandal, I am so sad that Alex Salmond died before it was released.

    EXC: Info commissioner tells ScotGov that in 3 year legal battle over docs abt Nicola Sturgeon’s conduct during Alex Salmond inquiry, ministers

    - submitted “factual discrepancies” in evidence
    - delayed unwinnable case before misrepresenting facts to media


    https://x.com/kieranpandrews/status/1868590576905658512?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g

    Before I die, I hope to see Sturgeon and Murrell in jail. Unfortunately, it’s too late for Salmond to see them in jail.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236
    DavidL said:

    Court has allowed the naming of the alleged spy as Yang Tengbo

    If Mr Yang Tenbo thinks that hanging around Prince Andrew is going to get him access to anything meaningful he's not a particularly well informed spy.
    Mr Yang and Prince Andrew broke off their relationship when concerns were raised ...

    Clearly the alleged Chinese spy decided Prince Andrew wasn't an appropriate person to be connected with
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,212

    As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?

    Santa in this part of Yorkshire too.
    Alternated between Father C and Santa when I was growing up, but Santa was generally seen as a bit American and naff even though on reflection it's closer to the correct actual name.

    I was aware he was called Saint Nicholas from early childhood because I always had The Night Before Christmas read to me by my father on, well, the night before Christmas. A tradition I have maintained with my children until about the age of 11. It's one of the most magical moments of Christmas eve, alongside switching Carols from Kings on in the early evening, and putting out the sherry and carrot before bedtime. I think this year may sadly be the last time I ever get out the dog-eared old 1970s Random House edition, at least until there are grandchildren.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    Council tax is the remit of the Treasury not the department for local government.

    Yes it should be fixed but it’s a political nightmare which is why no-one wants to fix it
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,212

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700

    As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?

    Deffo in the White House.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053
    TimS said:

    As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?

    Santa in this part of Yorkshire too.
    Alternated between Father C and Santa when I was growing up, but Santa was generally seen as a bit American and naff even though on reflection it's closer to the correct actual name.

    I was aware he was called Saint Nicholas from early childhood because I always had The Night Before Christmas read to me by my father on, well, the night before Christmas. A tradition I have maintained with my children until about the age of 11. It's one of the most magical moments of Christmas eve, alongside switching Carols from Kings on in the early evening, and putting out the sherry and carrot before bedtime. I think this year may sadly be the last time I ever get out the dog-eared old 1970s Random House edition, at least until there are grandchildren.
    Post it as a thread on Christmas Eve and we can all read it before we go to bed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869
    edited December 16
    I can't find St Nicholas on a roof boss of Norwich Cathedral, though he'll be on a misericord somewhere.

    But I did find "Man Fights Dragon", who has a red robe - but if it's anyone it's St George. Not one of the big ones, but my photo quota. Dragons apparently grew a bit between the 15C and the Hobbit.



    Father Christmas seems to be 17C in England, around the time of the Republic when traditions were suppressed, at a rapid look.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,256
    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    Apparently Peppa Pig is responsible for American children saying "wellies" and "holidays", so it's not all one-way travel.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,785
    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    *vomits*
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,591

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    Personally, despite being a huge advocate of solar generally, I'm not a massive fan of chucking up panels in fields.

    I think the right approach is to encourage integrated solar for new offices, retail and industrial construction. If you're doing electrical and putting a roof on anyway, the incremental cost of *installing* solar is minimal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700
    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    Seems a peculiar way to refer to Father Christmas?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    I think he was 2nd century AD.

    The Ottoman Turks were around a thousand years later. Even the Seljuks only really got going in the 11th century.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700

    This is an utter scandal, I am so sad that Alex Salmond died before it was released.

    EXC: Info commissioner tells ScotGov that in 3 year legal battle over docs abt Nicola Sturgeon’s conduct during Alex Salmond inquiry, ministers

    - submitted “factual discrepancies” in evidence
    - delayed unwinnable case before misrepresenting facts to media


    https://x.com/kieranpandrews/status/1868590576905658512?s=61&t=c6bcp0cjChLfQN5Tc8A_6g

    Before I die, I hope to see Sturgeon and Murrell in jail. Unfortunately, it’s too late for Salmond to see them in jail.
    Sharing a cell with Donald Trump?
  • novanova Posts: 695

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    I'd assume that they already do this to an extent. There's been a lot of fuss about pylons crossing beautiful countryside, but they're often next to major roads, and, despite the complaints that every solar farm happens to be in the most beautiful and important countryside, I suspect that's more than a slight exaggeration.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,350
    rcs1000 said:

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    Personally, despite being a huge advocate of solar generally, I'm not a massive fan of chucking up panels in fields.

    I think the right approach is to encourage integrated solar for new offices, retail and industrial construction. If you're doing electrical and putting a roof on anyway, the incremental cost of *installing* solar is minimal.
    Indeed, and it should have been integrated into all new houses for the last 20 years. Sadly not though.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,212

    rcs1000 said:

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    Personally, despite being a huge advocate of solar generally, I'm not a massive fan of chucking up panels in fields.

    I think the right approach is to encourage integrated solar for new offices, retail and industrial construction. If you're doing electrical and putting a roof on anyway, the incremental cost of *installing* solar is minimal.
    Indeed, and it should have been integrated into all new houses for the last 20 years. Sadly not though.
    The French law requiring solar panel-covered car parks seems very neat - you provide badly needed shade and also generate electricity over large urban surfaces. But I've not seen many examples yet. It presumably only applies to new car parks rather than requiring retrofit.
  • Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    I think he was 2nd century AD.

    The Ottoman Turks were around a thousand years later. Even the Seljuks only really got going in the 11th century.
    An Asia Minor Greek from Myra, I think.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,357
    nova said:

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    I'd assume that they already do this to an extent. There's been a lot of fuss about pylons crossing beautiful countryside, but they're often next to major roads, and, despite the complaints that every solar farm happens to be in the most beautiful and important countryside, I suspect that's more than a slight exaggeration.
    Labour will get into a lot more trouble underbuilding than over. Last givt splurged enormous amounts on energy bill subsidy.
  • Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    I think he was 2nd century AD.

    The Ottoman Turks were around a thousand years later. Even the Seljuks only really got going in the 11th century.
    An Asia Minor Greek from Myra, I think.
    Not to say that the Leave campaign didn't indulge in xenophobic rubbish about Turkey, ofcourse. M.C. Michael Gove did just that.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,828
    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    Of course not all Americans say ladybug: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Bird_Johnson
  • TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug"..
    Well, beetles are closer to bugs than they are to birds!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,413

    As far as I am aware, the red coated, bearded, welly wearing chap has always been Santa in the West of Scotland, never Father Christmas. Is that also the case in other places?

    My memories of childhood are distant and faint, but I think he was -- this was the late '70s -- Father Xmas and Santa was seen as an Americanism.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,423
    edited December 16

    I've always been a Santa man myself, Father Christmas always had bad vibes for me, not as bad as Daddy Christmas.

    I'm definitely a Father Christmas man due to this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3AphnJLbE

    Oh my name is Father Christmas" he informed her as he met her
    She said "Good grief, it's seven years since I sent you a letter!"
    He said "I can't stand little girls, BIGGER ONES ARE BETTER!!"
    And this is what she said, Ohhhhhhhh
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,630
    This is a false binary. There's room for both.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,413
    MattW said:

    I can't find St Nicholas on a roof boss of Norwich Cathedral, though he'll be on a misericord somewhere.

    But I did find "Man Fights Dragon", who has a red robe - but if it's anyone it's St George. Not one of the big ones, but my photo quota. Dragons apparently grew a bit between the 15C and the Hobbit.



    Father Christmas seems to be 17C in England, around the time of the Republic when traditions were suppressed, at a rapid look.

    He looks too chilled to be in a fight. It's more like he's trying to give his pet dragon a pill. (A similar experience to giving your cat a pill, presumably.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,256
    Reform voters are the most opposed to the Royal Mail takeover:

    https://x.com/leftiestats/status/1868693803688984836
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,423

    Reform voters are the most opposed to the Royal Mail takeover:

    https://x.com/leftiestats/status/1868693803688984836

    Reform voters are against any form of change that is not backwards.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,413

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    I think he was 2nd century AD.

    The Ottoman Turks were around a thousand years later. Even the Seljuks only really got going in the 11th century.
    That's why I did not refer to him as a Turk or Turkish! But he was from (what is now) Turkey.

    But he was ethnically Greek (probably*). Not that the Leave campaign were much more keen on Greek people.

    3rd to 4th century CE.

    * We know f all about St Nicholas in practice. Almost everything we know is stories from centuries later.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,826
    edited December 16
    Post won't get any better that's for sure.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,423
    edited December 16

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    I think he was 2nd century AD.

    The Ottoman Turks were around a thousand years later. Even the Seljuks only really got going in the 11th century.
    Mrs J went to a funeral last week in Tarsus, in the south of Turkey, and the birthplace of St Paul. St Paul was from a Jewish family.

    And AFAICR at the time that part of Turkey was seen by the Romans as being part of the province of Syria (might be wrong...)
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    There was a time when most urban-dwellers didn't have a garden but they might have a small paved yard area with room for a water butt, the dustbin, etc. I am sure my grandmother from the East End referred to outside as "the yard".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,700

    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    There was a time when most urban-dwellers didn't have a garden but they might have a small paved yard area with room for a water butt, the dustbin, etc. I am sure my grandmother from the East End referred to outside as "the yard".
    My parents did too.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,826
    Changing tp Santa Claus rather spoils the essence of the :Why doesn't Father Christmas have any children....? "Joke
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,869
    edited December 16

    MattW said:

    I can't find St Nicholas on a roof boss of Norwich Cathedral, though he'll be on a misericord somewhere.

    But I did find "Man Fights Dragon", who has a red robe - but if it's anyone it's St George. Not one of the big ones, but my photo quota. Dragons apparently grew a bit between the 15C and the Hobbit.



    Father Christmas seems to be 17C in England, around the time of the Republic when traditions were suppressed, at a rapid look.

    He looks too chilled to be in a fight. It's more like he's trying to give his pet dragon a pill. (A similar experience to giving your cat a pill, presumably.)
    In James Herriot, there's a wonderful description of giving a horse a pill / medication :smile: , which involved giving a young vet the medication, pointing to the horse, and watching. "Carmody", if I recall.

    And it wasn't "The horse blew first."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,325

    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    There was a time when most urban-dwellers didn't have a garden but they might have a small paved yard area with room for a water butt, the dustbin, etc. I am sure my grandmother from the East End referred to outside as "the yard".
    Earth or water closet. Possibly scullery with a copper for boiling the water.

    And who's to know if the little girl isn't actually quite accurate, given the current fetish for paving over gardens for the benefit of the great god motor car?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    Personally, despite being a huge advocate of solar generally, I'm not a massive fan of chucking up panels in fields.

    I think the right approach is to encourage integrated solar for new offices, retail and industrial construction. If you're doing electrical and putting a roof on anyway, the incremental cost of *installing* solar is minimal.
    50% tax credit for all existing houses would get it moving.

  • Patara is on the West Coast of Turkey not far from Rhodes, so it's a fairly safe bet that Saint Nicholas was of Greek descent.

    A complicating factor for many of the people that the Brexit adverts were aimed at, ofcourse, is that many modern people from that same part of Turkey now, are still of the same descent.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    xyzxyzxyz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Just thought I would repast my rant from the last thread:

    It is said that politicians do monitor this site, so I am hoping that Mr Miliband somehow gets to hear this:

    There is growing antipathy toward solar in some areas, which is unfortunate, mainly driven by the ad hoc nature of the developments.

    The attitude of Miliband seems to be "hey you country dwellers! Don't like that beautiful areas are being carpeted with shiney solar panels? Well fuck you! We all have to do our bit"

    This could be replaced by a sensible joined up strategic policy that identifies fields adjacent to major arterial routes. A motorway scenery is rarely going to made worse by line upon line of solar farm, and large areas are not adjacent to people's houses. It should also make the infrastructure building easier.

    This way you might find you get less opposition, which does stop you from getting your power trip of overriding these irritants with the stroke of your bureaucratic pen, but it is in the best interests of general support for renewables that they are put in places that do not piss people off.

    Personally, despite being a huge advocate of solar generally, I'm not a massive fan of chucking up panels in fields.

    I think the right approach is to encourage integrated solar for new offices, retail and industrial construction. If you're doing electrical and putting a roof on anyway, the incremental cost of *installing* solar is minimal.
    50% tax credit for all existing houses would get it moving.

    it's the retro fitting costs that are the issue. Alongside builders doing the absolute minimum rather than making the roof 90% panels...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,102
    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    I've also had to stop my children saying Zee rather than Zed for the last letter of the alphabet. Because they watch a ridiculous amount of Cocomelon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575

    Santa Claus is a corruption of Saint Nicholas, who was from Turkey. The Leave campaign told us that we had to Brexit to keep out people coming from Turkey!

    I think he was 2nd century AD.

    The Ottoman Turks were around a thousand years later. Even the Seljuks only really got going in the 11th century.
    That's why I did not refer to him as a Turk or Turkish! But he was from (what is now) Turkey.

    But he was ethnically Greek (probably*). Not that the Leave campaign were much more keen on Greek people.

    3rd to 4th century CE.

    * We know f all about St Nicholas in practice. Almost everything we know is stories from centuries later.
    Didn't St Nick beat up a bishop or something? Given what our bishops habitually ignore out of convenience even in modern times, I cannot be sure the chap did not deserve it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575

    MattW said:

    I can't find St Nicholas on a roof boss of Norwich Cathedral, though he'll be on a misericord somewhere.

    But I did find "Man Fights Dragon", who has a red robe - but if it's anyone it's St George. Not one of the big ones, but my photo quota. Dragons apparently grew a bit between the 15C and the Hobbit.



    Father Christmas seems to be 17C in England, around the time of the Republic when traditions were suppressed, at a rapid look.

    He looks too chilled to be in a fight. It's more like he's trying to give his pet dragon a pill. (A similar experience to giving your cat a pill, presumably.)
    That's just the icy calm of someone for whom this is all in a day's work. Badass.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575

    I've also had to stop my children saying Zee rather than Zed for the last letter of the alphabet.

    I was doing that 30 years ago because of Sesame Street.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575
    kinabalu said:

    This is a false binary. There's room for both.

    Doesn't seem to be the case in practice.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    I'm trying to work out what Ben Houchen has done for Tees Valley to be on the naughty step (i.e. those not getting Established Mayoral devolution)..
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    ...
  • TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    There was a time when most urban-dwellers didn't have a garden but they might have a small paved yard area with room for a water butt, the dustbin, etc. I am sure my grandmother from the East End referred to outside as "the yard".
    Yes,I can confirm that usage of 'the yard' from my childhood in the East End. Everyone would know what was meant.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,256

    Reform voters are the most opposed to the Royal Mail takeover:

    https://x.com/leftiestats/status/1868693803688984836

    Reform voters are against any form of change that is not backwards.
    That’s a lazy comment. Once upon a time it would have been Labour voters who were the most hostile. It says something significant that this has changed.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,944

    I've also had to stop my children saying Zee rather than Zed for the last letter of the alphabet. Because they watch a ridiculous amount of Cocomelon.

    I think the use of "butt" for bum has become all encompassing now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668

    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    Apparently Peppa Pig is responsible for American children saying "wellies" and "holidays", so it's not all one-way travel.
    More of this, please.

    Wellies is spectacularly and wonderfully British.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,471
    kinabalu said:

    This is a false binary. There's room for both.

    Not down my chimney there isn't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575
    edited December 16

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    They do appear to be in an almighty hurry. Which people were expecting based on prior comments, which is why places like Somerset, Dorset, and Wiltshire abandoned their opposition to mayoralties on the basis it would be pointless to resist (there is token talk of exceptions to various requirements and potential for bespoke arrangements, but it is very clear that is not going to happen in nearly all cases), but it seems overly ambitious to me.

    I do love how there is still an effort to pretend this is not being forced on places, but talking about working 'collaboratively' to deliver the ambition of unversal coverage, even though the white paper makes clear you agree it, or it will be done anyway.

    However, in order to ensure a complete national layer of Strategic Authorities is in place to devolve further powers to in future, we will legislate for a ministerial directive, which will enable the government to create Strategic Authorities in any remaining places where local leaders in that region have not been able to agree how to access devolved powers...we will ensure that the ministerial directive is used to conclude the process where there is majority support, or the formation is essential in completing the roll out of Strategic Authorities in England

    One weird minor aspect of the white paper is intent to remove the ability of 'Strategic Authorities' to call Mayors by another name. I may be wrong, but I'm not sure anyone has done that anyway? I think it may have been a Gove wheeze to give potential to be called Governors or something, given people suggested mayor sounded odd for big rural areas.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,471
    edited December 16

    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    There was a time when most urban-dwellers didn't have a garden but they might have a small paved yard area with room for a water butt, the dustbin, etc. I am sure my grandmother from the East End referred to outside as "the yard".
    Yes,I can confirm that usage of 'the yard' from my childhood in the East End. Everyone would know what was meant.
    And from my childhood in Leeds. The vast swathes of terrace houses all had back yards, and that's what they were called.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,630

    I've also had to stop my children saying Zee rather than Zed for the last letter of the alphabet. Because they watch a ridiculous amount of Cocomelon.

    I think the use of "butt" for bum has become all encompassing now.
    But not "ass" for "arse". I'd say in the UK arses still predominate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 16
    Does it really make much difference what we call him? He will still bring the presents on Christmas Eve and still want a sherry and mince pies
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620

    Reform voters are the most opposed to the Royal Mail takeover:

    https://x.com/leftiestats/status/1868693803688984836

    Reform voters are against any form of change that is not backwards.
    That’s a lazy comment. Once upon a time it would have been Labour voters who were the most hostile. It says something significant that this has changed.
    Anyone asked Lib Dem supporters how they feel about this? :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    Looks like county council elections may be off then next year in most areas where county and district councils agree to move to unitaries from 2026
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Reform voters are the most opposed to the Royal Mail takeover:

    https://x.com/leftiestats/status/1868693803688984836

    Followed by LD voters and then Tories, Labour voters most in favour of selling of large stake in RM to a Czech billionaire but even 55% of Labour voters are opposed to it.

    However unless taxpayers are willing to pay more for the universal service I don't think RM has much choice to get his investment in return for shifting to a more parcel focused service and once OFCOM approves moving second class letter delivery to just 3 days a week
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 16
    MattW said:

    I can't find St Nicholas on a roof boss of Norwich Cathedral, though he'll be on a misericord somewhere.

    But I did find "Man Fights Dragon", who has a red robe - but if it's anyone it's St George. Not one of the big ones, but my photo quota. Dragons apparently grew a bit between the 15C and the Hobbit.



    Father Christmas seems to be 17C in England, around the time of the Republic when traditions were suppressed, at a rapid look.

    Thank goodness for the Restoration of the monarchy in 1660, when King Charles II restored Christmas, Father Christmas/St Nicholas and theatres and May dancing after the misery of Oliver Cromwell's rule in the one and only Republic of England and Wales we have ever had
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    kle4 said:

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    They do appear to be in an almighty hurry. Which people were expecting based on prior comments, which is why places like Somerset, Dorset, and Wiltshire abandoned their opposition to mayoralties on the basis it would be pointless to resist (there is token talk of exceptions to various requirements and potential for bespoke arrangements, but it is very clear that is not going to happen in nearly all cases), but it seems overly ambitious to me.

    I do love how there is still an effort to pretend this is not being forced on places, but talking about working 'collaboratively' to deliver the ambition of unversal coverage, even though the white paper makes clear you agree it, or it will be done anyway.

    However, in order to ensure a complete national layer of Strategic Authorities is in place to devolve further powers to in future, we will legislate for a ministerial directive, which will enable the government to create Strategic Authorities in any remaining places where local leaders in that region have not been able to agree how to access devolved powers...we will ensure that the ministerial directive is used to conclude the process where there is majority support, or the formation is essential in completing the roll out of Strategic Authorities in England

    One weird minor aspect of the white paper is intent to remove the ability of 'Strategic Authorities' to call Mayors by another name. I may be wrong, but I'm not sure anyone has done that anyway? I think it may have been a Gove wheeze to give potential to be called Governors or something, given people suggested mayor sounded odd for big rural areas.
    Northumberland has a Mayor which seems strange. President? Governor doesn't sound like an elected post to a Brit
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,102
    John Rentoul is right. Where is the clamour for ending district councils?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,102
    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    Looks like county council elections may be off then next year in most areas where county and district councils agree to move to unitaries from 2026
    And when do us voters get a say on these mergers?

    Was it even in the manifesto?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,316
    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    Looks like county council elections may be off then next year in most areas where county and district councils agree to move to unitaries from 2026
    Looks like Ms Rayner intends to save us from the Green-Labour jackboot at Warwick District and transfer us to the warm embrace of Tory-controlled Warwickshire County. What a Girl.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,102

    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    Looks like county council elections may be off then next year in most areas where county and district councils agree to move to unitaries from 2026
    Looks like Ms Rayner intends to save us from the Green-Labour jackboot at Warwick District and transfer us to the warm embrace of Tory-controlled Warwickshire County. What a Girl.
    LOL.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,212

    TimS said:

    My kids are the same. Really hard to stop this creeping Americanisation when virtually *everyone* describes him as such.

    We keep telling them he has "two names" but it doesn't help that Santa is easier to say.

    My daughter's friends are all now saying "ladybug". One of them even talks about playing out in "the yard".
    There was a time when most urban-dwellers didn't have a garden but they might have a small paved yard area with room for a water butt, the dustbin, etc. I am sure my grandmother from the East End referred to outside as "the yard".
    Yes,I can confirm that usage of 'the yard' from my childhood in the East End. Everyone would know what was meant.
    Whereas in the US “the yard” means anything from an actual yard to a vast landscaped garden with duck pond.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,575

    John Rentoul is right. Where is the clamour for ending district councils?

    I don't think that is the correct question. I doubt there was that much clamour for introducing district councils either, local government reorganisations are not things that people concern themselves with outside of rare instances (Rutland, Avon, etc). Yes it was an even more confused mess before 1973, so there was probably a bit more actual interest in simplifying matters than there is with this set of proposals, but I would dispute fiercely the idea the average person cares whether they have a district or unitary, and thus clamour, or lack thereof, means nothing.

    The better question is whether the district/council set up works. And if is felt it does not (or is not as effective as it could be), does the new approach actually improve upon it - change is not automatically for the better after all.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    kle4 said:

    MattW said:

    Huge local government re-org by Labour in today's White Paper without tackling the mess of council tax or looking at electoral systems for vote.

    The former, in particular, is ridiculous.

    The paper is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/english-devolution-white-paper-power-and-partnership-foundations-for-growth/english-devolution-white-paper

    I need to catch up on this. I can see it being beneficial IF it is done at a moderate pace that can be adapted to, which imo means over a number of years.

    Changes we have seen around Mayors have been very gradual, and seem to have demonstrated that the concept can work in Metro areas. For me the evidence is not so clear in more rural regions yet,
    Moderate? Ministers now saying they want plans from all 21 counties by mid-Jan.

    Planning to scrap some if not the majority of council elections for affected authories via legislation in late Feb.
    They do appear to be in an almighty hurry. Which people were expecting based on prior comments, which is why places like Somerset, Dorset, and Wiltshire abandoned their opposition to mayoralties on the basis it would be pointless to resist (there is token talk of exceptions to various requirements and potential for bespoke arrangements, but it is very clear that is not going to happen in nearly all cases), but it seems overly ambitious to me.

    I do love how there is still an effort to pretend this is not being forced on places, but talking about working 'collaboratively' to deliver the ambition of unversal coverage, even though the white paper makes clear you agree it, or it will be done anyway.

    However, in order to ensure a complete national layer of Strategic Authorities is in place to devolve further powers to in future, we will legislate for a ministerial directive, which will enable the government to create Strategic Authorities in any remaining places where local leaders in that region have not been able to agree how to access devolved powers...we will ensure that the ministerial directive is used to conclude the process where there is majority support, or the formation is essential in completing the roll out of Strategic Authorities in England

    One weird minor aspect of the white paper is intent to remove the ability of 'Strategic Authorities' to call Mayors by another name. I may be wrong, but I'm not sure anyone has done that anyway? I think it may have been a Gove wheeze to give potential to be called Governors or something, given people suggested mayor sounded odd for big rural areas.
    I'm hoping for a bit of out-of-the-box thinking. Where I am, it would make sense to combine districts in Hants, Surrey and Berkshire to make a Blackwater area, although it would really need dividing some districts as for example Fleet and Yateley are commuter towns that would sit well within it, but a lot of the rest of Hart is rural Hampshire. So it could be made up of Rushmoor, Surrey Heath and parts of Hart, Guildford and Bracknell Forest (ie Sandhurst). Arguably Farnham as well but they will never wear it
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