Starmer tells new Syrian leaders to renounce terror and violence
Sir Keir’s comments came as he arrived in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday for trade talks with Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, its president, before flying on to Saudi Arabia for his first face-to-face meeting with Mohammed bin Salman, its leader, on Monday.
Starmer on his travels again. It feels like he is out of the country every week, I wonder how his global trotting stacks up against previous PMs?
It only matters if Starmer goes by helicopter.
The measure is of course what he is gaining for the UK from these trips. But it feels like he on his travels a lot more than previous PMs, might also just be that all these events have coincided such that it has meant the schedule is very travel heavy regardless of who is it or it might actually be that this is the norm when Cameron / Blair were in charge.
I think anyone with a Global perspective on so many domestic and international issues would be very perplexed why at the start of a 5 year term he isn't or wouldn't be making a concerted effort to put THE NEW UK after 1 4 years of Tory Governemt at the forefront of other Nations Leaders field of vision.
Puerile attempts to demean him are just that pathetic puerile comments...particularly from Badenoch who basically traveled the globe to sign crap deals that were either worse than what she was seeking to replace or of benefit only to the other nation and certainly not the UK
Woiuld ANYONE care to argur that point with factual evidence of a Badenoch deal that is actually worthwhile under scrutiny??...
We are really entering an age of enlightenment and we must consider ourselves lucky to have SKS as our inspirational visionary leader.
Thank you for getting the perspective correct.
You remind me of the opening lines of the speech given by the late John Prescott at the first Labour Party Conference after Blair had swept to power:
'Comrades....New Comrades. We are gathered here today in the presence of Our Leader....'
He was a one-off.
He is the only politician in my lifetime who really could connect with the voters.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
SPotY is a 2-horse race in the betting.
Keely Hodgkinson (athletics) has been odds-on favourite since the Olympics, where she won the 800m gold medal.
Luke Littler (darts) is around the 5/2 mark and the others are all 100+ on Betfair.
What?! Darts is only just about a sport.
The competition is also supposedly about personality.....quite a few winners certainly don't excel in that department.
I don't thinks this is true. The 'personality' is doing the job of sportsman/sportswoman. They are not suggesting you have to be a good fun person too.
Yes it doesn't mean 'personality' in that sense. It means the award is about impact made not just the bare stats of sporting achievement.
Yes,and it neatly sidesteps the problem of promoting an awkward sod like Piggott.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
Quite why the list needs to be so short, I have never understood. They could surely manage 12? Some huge names/performances missing, Jasmine Paris for one.
To have only two Olympians and a single Paralympian does seem awfully stingy this year.
Suspect that it probably goes to Keely from that list, she’s photogenic and does actually have a personality as well as a gold medal.
Would be great if all the darts fans put down their pints and got it for Luke though, he’s the best thing to happen to that sport in decades.
Going through the other gold medallists one by one
Swimming (Men's 4 x 200); rowing Quad sculls; lightweight double sculls; equestrian; men's eight; women's sprint (Cycling) - All team golds
Trap, women's kite (Sailing) - low profile for SPOTY tbh
Toby Roberts - some stunning climbing achievements including gold at Olympics, 2 world cup lead wins and tough routes but climbing is one of those sports like ultra long distance running and mountaineering that exists in it's own sphere. See Jasmin Paris not getting in too.
Cross country cycling - Pidcock. Bit unlucky to miss out perhaps.
In addition to his Olympic gold:
2024 (5) 1st Cross-country, Olympic Games UCI XCO World Cup 1st Nové Město 1st Crans-Montana UCI XCC World Cup 1st Crans-Montana Shimano Super Cup 1st La Nucia
Good point about a number of the gold medals being to teams rather than individuals. That some sports count more than others is disappointing, for the vast majority of Olympic sports it’s the single biggest event on their calendar.
Starmer tells new Syrian leaders to renounce terror and violence
Sir Keir’s comments came as he arrived in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday for trade talks with Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, its president, before flying on to Saudi Arabia for his first face-to-face meeting with Mohammed bin Salman, its leader, on Monday.
Starmer on his travels again. It feels like he is out of the country every week, I wonder how his global trotting stacks up against previous PMs?
It only matters if Starmer goes by helicopter.
The measure is of course what he is gaining for the UK from these trips. But it feels like he on his travels a lot more than previous PMs, might also just be that all these events have coincided such that it has meant the schedule is very travel heavy regardless of who is it or it might actually be that this is the norm when Cameron / Blair were in charge.
I think anyone with a Global perspective on so many domestic and international issues would be very perplexed why at the start of a 5 year term he isn't or wouldn't be making a concerted effort to put THE NEW UK after 1 4 years of Tory Governemt at the forefront of other Nations Leaders field of vision.
Puerile attempts to demean him are just that pathetic puerile comments...particularly from Badenoch who basically traveled the globe to sign crap deals that were either worse than what she was seeking to replace or of benefit only to the other nation and certainly not the UK
Woiuld ANYONE care to argur that point with factual evidence of a Badenoch deal that is actually worthwhile under scrutiny??...
We are really entering an age of enlightenment and we must consider ourselves lucky to have SKS as our inspirational visionary leader.
Thank you for getting the perspective correct.
You remind me of the opening lines of the speech given by the late John Prescott at the first Labour Party Conference after Blair had swept to power:
'Comrades....New Comrades. We are gathered here today in the presence of Our Leader....'
He was a one-off.
He is the only politician in my lifetime who really could connect with the voters.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
SPotY is a 2-horse race in the betting.
Keely Hodgkinson (athletics) has been odds-on favourite since the Olympics, where she won the 800m gold medal.
Luke Littler (darts) is around the 5/2 mark and the others are all 100+ on Betfair.
What?! Darts is only just about a sport.
The competition is also supposedly about personality.....quite a few winners certainly don't excel in that department.
I don't thinks this is true. The 'personality' is doing the job of sportsman/sportswoman. They are not suggesting you have to be a good fun person too.
Yes it doesn't mean 'personality' in that sense. It means the award is about impact made not just the bare stats of sporting achievement.
Yes,and it neatly sidesteps the problem of promoting an awkward sod like Piggott.
Not one to gush in front of the cameras, was he.
Everyone in racing has a Lester Piggott story. Mine concerns his brush with the Inland Revenue, but since it is kind of inside information, I cannot relate it here.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
A word of caution: if researching the darts prodigy, note that both top darts players are named Luke.
Last year's world championships. Littler progresses to play against former multiple world champion Raymond van Barneveld. Littler's childhood hero - insert family video of small child throwing darts and doing the Barney celebration.
One of those stories in sport that makes you smile. Barney is long past his peak but still a formidable player. 16-year old Luke utterly demolishes him. Unplayable. Barney is very gracious in defeat and tells the media that Littler will conquer the sport.
We will all get very very bored with Littler. But for now, he is THE sports phenomenon of the year. Who else is in the running who has achieved so much so quickly so young?
He's an interesting betting proposition at 4.
In my view that's either great value or a screaming lay or just about right.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
I seem to recall they get quite a bad Press in the Old Testament, not that anyone reads that much.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
Quite why the list needs to be so short, I have never understood. They could surely manage 12? Some huge names/performances missing, Jasmine Paris for one.
To have only two Olympians and a single Paralympian does seem awfully stingy this year.
Suspect that it probably goes to Keely from that list, she’s photogenic and does actually have a personality as well as a gold medal.
Would be great if all the darts fans put down their pints and got it for Luke though, he’s the best thing to happen to that sport in decades.
Going through the other gold medallists one by one
Swimming (Men's 4 x 200); rowing Quad sculls; lightweight double sculls; equestrian; men's eight; women's sprint (Cycling) - All team golds
Trap, women's kite (Sailing) - low profile for SPOTY tbh
Toby Roberts - some stunning climbing achievements including gold at Olympics, 2 world cup lead wins and tough routes but climbing is one of those sports like ultra long distance running and mountaineering that exists in it's own sphere. See Jasmin Paris not getting in too.
Cross country cycling - Pidcock. Bit unlucky to miss out perhaps.
In addition to his Olympic gold:
2024 (5) 1st Cross-country, Olympic Games UCI XCO World Cup 1st Nové Město 1st Crans-Montana UCI XCC World Cup 1st Crans-Montana Shimano Super Cup 1st La Nucia
Good point about a number of the gold medals being to teams rather than individuals. That some sports count more than others is disappointing, for the vast majority of Olympic sports it’s the single biggest event on their calendar.
If Phil Foden had not got in Bellingham way, and every other England players, in the summer we'd probably be celebrating a Soccer individual and team winner.
Not a surprise Foden has now been exposed at Club and international level as an overrated 21st century Ray Pass it Sideways Wilkins
Starmer tells new Syrian leaders to renounce terror and violence
Sir Keir’s comments came as he arrived in the United Arab Emirates on Sunday for trade talks with Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, its president, before flying on to Saudi Arabia for his first face-to-face meeting with Mohammed bin Salman, its leader, on Monday.
Starmer on his travels again. It feels like he is out of the country every week, I wonder how his global trotting stacks up against previous PMs?
It only matters if Starmer goes by helicopter.
The measure is of course what he is gaining for the UK from these trips. But it feels like he on his travels a lot more than previous PMs, might also just be that all these events have coincided such that it has meant the schedule is very travel heavy regardless of who is it or it might actually be that this is the norm when Cameron / Blair were in charge.
I think anyone with a Global perspective on so many domestic and international issues would be very perplexed why at the start of a 5 year term he isn't or wouldn't be making a concerted effort to put THE NEW UK after 1 4 years of Tory Governemt at the forefront of other Nations Leaders field of vision.
Puerile attempts to demean him are just that pathetic puerile comments...particularly from Badenoch who basically traveled the globe to sign crap deals that were either worse than what she was seeking to replace or of benefit only to the other nation and certainly not the UK
Woiuld ANYONE care to argur that point with factual evidence of a Badenoch deal that is actually worthwhile under scrutiny??...
We are really entering an age of enlightenment and we must consider ourselves lucky to have SKS as our inspirational visionary leader.
Thank you for getting the perspective correct.
You remind me of the opening lines of the speech given by the late John Prescott at the first Labour Party Conference after Blair had swept to power:
'Comrades....New Comrades. We are gathered here today in the presence of Our Leader....'
He was a one-off.
He is the only politician in my lifetime who really could connect with the voters.
Sometimes with a well-educated left jab, but yes, I agree.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
Quite why the list needs to be so short, I have never understood. They could surely manage 12? Some huge names/performances missing, Jasmine Paris for one.
To have only two Olympians and a single Paralympian does seem awfully stingy this year.
Suspect that it probably goes to Keely from that list, she’s photogenic and does actually have a personality as well as a gold medal.
Would be great if all the darts fans put down their pints and got it for Luke though, he’s the best thing to happen to that sport in decades.
Going through the other gold medallists one by one
Swimming (Men's 4 x 200); rowing Quad sculls; lightweight double sculls; equestrian; men's eight; women's sprint (Cycling) - All team golds
Trap, women's kite (Sailing) - low profile for SPOTY tbh
Toby Roberts - some stunning climbing achievements including gold at Olympics, 2 world cup lead wins and tough routes but climbing is one of those sports like ultra long distance running and mountaineering that exists in it's own sphere. See Jasmin Paris not getting in too.
Cross country cycling - Pidcock. Bit unlucky to miss out perhaps.
In addition to his Olympic gold:
2024 (5) 1st Cross-country, Olympic Games UCI XCO World Cup 1st Nové Město 1st Crans-Montana UCI XCC World Cup 1st Crans-Montana Shimano Super Cup 1st La Nucia
Good point about a number of the gold medals being to teams rather than individuals. That some sports count more than others is disappointing, for the vast majority of Olympic sports it’s the single biggest event on their calendar.
If Phil Foden had not got in Bellingham way, and every other England players, in the summer we'd probably be celebrating a Soccer individual and team winner.
Not a surprise Foden has now been exposed at Club and international level as an overrated 21st century Ray Pass it Sideways Wilkins
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
Yes, but sometimes these things are awarded for achievements over a long period of time rather than necessarily any specific currency. The vagary of the criteria are part of its charm.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
SPotY is a 2-horse race in the betting.
Keely Hodgkinson (athletics) has been odds-on favourite since the Olympics, where she won the 800m gold medal.
Luke Littler (darts) is around the 5/2 mark and the others are all 100+ on Betfair.
What?! Darts is only just about a sport.
The competition is also supposedly about personality.....quite a few winners certainly don't excel in that department.
I don't thinks this is true. The 'personality' is doing the job of sportsman/sportswoman. They are not suggesting you have to be a good fun person too.
Yes it doesn't mean 'personality' in that sense. It means the award is about impact made not just the bare stats of sporting achievement.
Yes,and it neatly sidesteps the problem of promoting an awkward sod like Piggott.
Not one to gush in front of the cameras, was he.
Everyone in racing has a Lester Piggott story. Mine concerns his brush with the Inland Revenue, but since it is kind of inside information, I cannot relate it here.
I remember him well. He was "the man" when I first got into racing as a teenager in the 70s. That Breeders win on Royal Academy aged 55 after doing his porridge remains one of the most amazing sporting comebacks of all time.
A word of caution: if researching the darts prodigy, note that both top darts players are named Luke.
Last year's world championships. Littler progresses to play against former multiple world champion Raymond van Barneveld. Littler's childhood hero - insert family video of small child throwing darts and doing the Barney celebration.
One of those stories in sport that makes you smile. Barney is long past his peak but still a formidable player. 16-year old Luke utterly demolishes him. Unplayable. Barney is very gracious in defeat and tells the media that Littler will conquer the sport.
We will all get very very bored with Littler. But for now, he is THE sports phenomenon of the year. Who else is in the running who has achieved so much so quickly so young?
He's an interesting betting proposition at 4.
In my view that's either great value or a screaming lay or just about right.
You should have written that as three separate posts, spaced far enough apart that when you linked back to the correct answer on the night no-one spots the other two
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
Yes, but sometimes these things are awarded for achievements over a long period of time rather than necessarily any specific currency. The vagary of the criteria are part of its charm.
Except when the main criterion is Plays For Man U, but generally yes.
A word of caution: if researching the darts prodigy, note that both top darts players are named Luke.
Last year's world championships. Littler progresses to play against former multiple world champion Raymond van Barneveld. Littler's childhood hero - insert family video of small child throwing darts and doing the Barney celebration.
One of those stories in sport that makes you smile. Barney is long past his peak but still a formidable player. 16-year old Luke utterly demolishes him. Unplayable. Barney is very gracious in defeat and tells the media that Littler will conquer the sport.
We will all get very very bored with Littler. But for now, he is THE sports phenomenon of the year. Who else is in the running who has achieved so much so quickly so young?
He's an interesting betting proposition at 4.
In my view that's either great value or a screaming lay or just about right.
You should have written that as three separate posts, spaced far enough apart that when you linked back to the correct answer on the night no-one spots the other two
Ha yes, thought about it. Bit like Boris and his Leave Remain articles,
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
Yes, but sometimes these things are awarded for achievements over a long period of time rather than necessarily any specific currency. The vagary of the criteria are part of its charm.
Like when Newman got his Oscar for Color of Money.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
Yes, but sometimes these things are awarded for achievements over a long period of time rather than necessarily any specific currency. The vagary of the criteria are part of its charm.
Yes perhaps, but one should at least have achieved something during the year in question to earn the nomination.
If they want to present a lifetime achievement award, then create one. I’ll nominate Lewis Hamilton this year.
The only thing Ryan Giggs did the year he won, was his sister-in-law.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
Quite why the list needs to be so short, I have never understood. They could surely manage 12? Some huge names/performances missing, Jasmine Paris for one.
To have only two Olympians and a single Paralympian does seem awfully stingy this year.
Suspect that it probably goes to Keely from that list, she’s photogenic and does actually have a personality as well as a gold medal.
Would be great if all the darts fans put down their pints and got it for Luke though, he’s the best thing to happen to that sport in decades.
Going through the other gold medallists one by one
Swimming (Men's 4 x 200); rowing Quad sculls; lightweight double sculls; equestrian; men's eight; women's sprint (Cycling) - All team golds
Trap, women's kite (Sailing) - low profile for SPOTY tbh
Toby Roberts - some stunning climbing achievements including gold at Olympics, 2 world cup lead wins and tough routes but climbing is one of those sports like ultra long distance running and mountaineering that exists in it's own sphere. See Jasmin Paris not getting in too.
Cross country cycling - Pidcock. Bit unlucky to miss out perhaps.
In addition to his Olympic gold:
2024 (5) 1st Cross-country, Olympic Games UCI XCO World Cup 1st Nové Město 1st Crans-Montana UCI XCC World Cup 1st Crans-Montana Shimano Super Cup 1st La Nucia
Good point about a number of the gold medals being to teams rather than individuals. That some sports count more than others is disappointing, for the vast majority of Olympic sports it’s the single biggest event on their calendar.
If Phil Foden had not got in Bellingham way, and every other England players, in the summer we'd probably be celebrating a Soccer individual and team winner.
Not a surprise Foden has now been exposed at Club and international level as an overrated 21st century Ray Pass it Sideways Wilkins
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
SPotY is a 2-horse race in the betting.
Keely Hodgkinson (athletics) has been odds-on favourite since the Olympics, where she won the 800m gold medal.
Luke Littler (darts) is around the 5/2 mark and the others are all 100+ on Betfair.
What?! Darts is only just about a sport.
The competition is also supposedly about personality.....quite a few winners certainly don't excel in that department.
I don't thinks this is true. The 'personality' is doing the job of sportsman/sportswoman. They are not suggesting you have to be a good fun person too.
Yes it doesn't mean 'personality' in that sense. It means the award is about impact made not just the bare stats of sporting achievement.
Yes,and it neatly sidesteps the problem of promoting an awkward sod like Piggott.
Not one to gush in front of the cameras, was he.
It's been said that Lester was genuinely on the spectrum as a lot of flat jockeys are - something to do with the weird and intense bond you need to make with the horse.
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
I was reading this morning that that is Root's opinion too! (Not sure I agree.)
Brook has the second-highest test average for any player with 35+ test innings. Which is going some. (Root is 31st globally, though fourth from Yorkshire, behind Herbert Sutcliffe and Len Hutton too).
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
I was reading this morning that that is Root's opinion too! (Not sure I agree.)
Brook has the second-highest test average for any player with 35+ test innings. Which is going some. (Root is 31st globally, though fourth from Yorkshire, behind Herbert Sutcliffe and Len Hutton too).
Oh, he's definitely useful, David!
Root has longevity on his side though, and the fact he's done it just about everywhere (apart from Australia, and that will be put right soon. )
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
SPotY is a 2-horse race in the betting.
Keely Hodgkinson (athletics) has been odds-on favourite since the Olympics, where she won the 800m gold medal.
Luke Littler (darts) is around the 5/2 mark and the others are all 100+ on Betfair.
What?! Darts is only just about a sport.
The competition is also supposedly about personality.....quite a few winners certainly don't excel in that department.
I don't thinks this is true. The 'personality' is doing the job of sportsman/sportswoman. They are not suggesting you have to be a good fun person too.
Yes it doesn't mean 'personality' in that sense. It means the award is about impact made not just the bare stats of sporting achievement.
Yes,and it neatly sidesteps the problem of promoting an awkward sod like Piggott.
Not one to gush in front of the cameras, was he.
It's been said that Lester was genuinely on the spectrum as a lot of flat jockeys are - something to do with the weird and intense bond you need to make with the horse.
Mebbe, Stark, but if you want an example of a great jockey who was apparently perfectly normal and likeable, look up Bill Shoemaker.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
Root is an ALL TIME GREAT when it comes to cricket. When England were in the shite, he regularly pulled us out of the mire. His only weakness was that his record as Captain wasn't stellar but a lot of the blame for that has to go on the other players.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
Littler's not even the best darts player called Luke.
And Root's not even the best English batsman right now !
Has to be Keely for me, gold in Rome and Paris in what is a genuinely tough event.
Not even the best Yorkshire bat.
I was reading this morning that that is Root's opinion too! (Not sure I agree.)
Brook has the second-highest test average for any player with 35+ test innings. Which is going some. (Root is 31st globally, though fourth from Yorkshire, behind Herbert Sutcliffe and Len Hutton too).
Oh, he's definitely useful, David!
Root has longevity on his side though, and the fact he's done it just about everywhere (apart from Australia, and that will be put right soon. )
Root has also had to deal with being in teams not necessarily managed in an optimum manner...
Brook is fortunate to have started his test career under Stokes, where the traditional toxic England dressing room seems to be a thing of the past.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
The Conservatives (with Reform) are polling at an unprecedented (for decades, excepting Boris came close in 2020) 50%. Do you think there is an opportunity for a Peter Wright style coup with perhaps Boris or Prince Andrew becoming titular PM until we can get new elections underway with Labour excluded and all Labour MPs put on trial for capital treason?
I await your most outrageous answer with enthusiasm.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
I don't know what this 'just yesterday' shite is about. My view that we should have supported Assad hasn't changed - secret prisons and a garage full of Ferraris have not convinced me otherwise, nor did the revelations of Saddam or Gadaffi's excesses in those cases. They were dictators, and in the case of the first two (in my opinion) worse than Assad. But they performed a role in keeping down worse forces, that have now been unleashed, as has been proven in the catastrophic events that followed.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
Also worth considering we may be at peak Trump
Obviously riding high on the back of a comprehensive win, but it is not clear how popular his policies will actually be in practice (a bit like Brexit...)
And when the bromance fades the fallout could be spectacular.
Four years from now, being Trump's buddy could be toxic.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
The Conservatives (with Reform) are polling at an unprecedented (for decades, excepting Boris came close in 2020) 50%. Do you think there is an opportunity for a Peter Wright style coup with perhaps Boris or Prince Andrew becoming titular PM until we can get new elections underway with Labour excluded and all Labour MPs put on trial for capital treason?
I await your most outrageous answer with enthusiasm.
No but I think there is a chance of a Tory and Reform government after the next GE
Root is an ALL TIME GREAT when it comes to cricket. When England were in the shite, he regularly pulled us out of the mire. His only weakness was that his record as Captain wasn't stellar but a lot of the blame for that has to go on the other players.
And coaches. However, he was a mediocre captain, picked more for lack of other options than any great innate ability to win games through astute tactical and strategic decisions or man-management.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
You're making the mistake of thinking that Reform voters are itching for a right-wing agenda, rather than simply wanting to stick one to the established parties and the status quo. Which, for all the recent years, has been your lot.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
Also worth considering we may be at peak Trump
Obviously riding high on the back of a comprehensive win, but it is not clear how popular his policies will actually be in practice (a bit like Brexit...)
And when the bromance fades the fallout could be spectacular.
Four years from now, being Trump's buddy could be toxic.
There does appear to have been an increased enthusiasm for Nigel from his hanging onto the victorious Trump's coat tails so it is hardly surprising key Johnsonian Tories want some of the action.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
That's the strategic challenge for the Conservatives right now. If they are just going to snuggle up to Reformism, they might as well shut up shop now, because Farage does that better. Somewhere, there has to be a point of difference better expressed than "we'd love to follow Reform really, but can't quite bring ourselves to do so."
Fortunately for Kemi B, approximately zero voters are paying any attention at all to anything she's saying right now.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
That doesn't make any sense. Regardless of what Labour and the Lib Dems are polling now you've still got to squeeze all of the ex Conservatives who voted for them in July. Tory poll numbers are equally abysmal so it's not like there's any evidence that they're coming back to you.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
I don't know what this 'just yesterday' shite is about. My view that we should have supported Assad hasn't changed - secret prisons and a garage full of Ferraris have not convinced me otherwise, nor did the revelations of Saddam or Gadaffi's excesses in those cases. They were dictators, and in the case of the first two (in my opinion) worse than Assad. But they performed a role in keeping down worse forces, that have now been unleashed, as has been proven in the catastrophic events that followed.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
The Conservatives (with Reform) are polling at an unprecedented (for decades, excepting Boris came close in 2020) 50%. Do you think there is an opportunity for a Peter Wright style coup with perhaps Boris or Prince Andrew becoming titular PM until we can get new elections underway with Labour excluded and all Labour MPs put on trial for capital treason?
I await your most outrageous answer with enthusiasm.
No but I think there is a chance of a Tory and Reform government after the next GE
A little disappointed in your measured response. But who is top dog? Johnson or Farage,.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
Also worth considering we may be at peak Trump
Obviously riding high on the back of a comprehensive win, but it is not clear how popular his policies will actually be in practice (a bit like Brexit...)
And when the bromance fades the fallout could be spectacular.
Four years from now, being Trump's buddy could be toxic.
It's certainly hard to see any sort of 'soft landing' for the fall when it comes.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Badenoch has played out so far roughly as I expected. The one and only thing going for her is that she is (a lot) better than Jenrick. There were at least two other candidates amongst the six that were better than her that Conservative MPs would have done better to have chosen.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
Also worth considering we may be at peak Trump
Obviously riding high on the back of a comprehensive win, but it is not clear how popular his policies will actually be in practice (a bit like Brexit...)
And when the bromance fades the fallout could be spectacular.
Four years from now, being Trump's buddy could be toxic.
I think this is absolutely peak Trump. Four years of chaos and idiocy lie ahead. Intelligent UK centre-right politicians (if there are any) would be wise not to get close.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are an extreme right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
That is the defence of Churchill's call for chemical weapons to be used against Iraqi citizens back in the day: that tear gas is kinder than bullets and bombs. If you want to boycott £5 notes, I can help with that.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
Reform - and more significantly Reform voters - see their party as the natural successor to the Conservative party. The HY opinion of "they're tories, they will come back to us" isn't rooted in reality, with no evidence to support it.
Root is an ALL TIME GREAT when it comes to cricket. When England were in the shite, he regularly pulled us out of the mire. His only weakness was that his record as Captain wasn't stellar but a lot of the blame for that has to go on the other players.
And coaches. However, he was a mediocre captain, picked more for lack of other options than any great innate ability to win games through astute tactical and strategic decisions or man-management.
It's hugely to his credit that he's settled back into his role as England's essential batsman, after losing the captaincy.
Way down the list of captains, but a contender for our best ever wielder of the willow.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
That is the defence of Churchill's call for chemical weapons to be used against Iraqi citizens back in the day: that tear gas is kinder than bullets and bombs. If you want to boycott £5 notes, I can help with that.
Tear gas is more merciful than bullets and bombs. Which is why police forces around he world use it.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Yes, quite a poor speech, and littered with typos, does nobody check these things before they're published? Some ludicrous stuff in there, like the idea that the left has no concept of liberty! Where does she get that from? Idiotic stuff. The Tories really screwed up offering the members a choice between her and the loathsome Jenrick.
Israel wasting no time annexing parts of southern Syria.
It will come as quite a shock to locals to find themselves living under a democracy.
Perhaps they could ask West Bank Palestinians for tips on the benefits of Israeli rule.
Those of us that despise Netanyahu and his government always stumble over the fact that Israel is the only country in the Middle East with the semblance of a democratic government.
@BBCSport Here are the nominees for BBC Sports Personality of the Year 2024!
⭐ Jude Bellingham ⭐ Keely Hodgkinson ⭐ Luke Littler ⭐ Joe Root ⭐ Sarah Storey ⭐ Alex Yee
Quite why the list needs to be so short, I have never understood. They could surely manage 12? Some huge names/performances missing, Jasmine Paris for one.
To have only two Olympians and a single Paralympian does seem awfully stingy this year.
Suspect that it probably goes to Keely from that list, she’s photogenic and does actually have a personality as well as a gold medal.
Would be great if all the darts fans put down their pints and got it for Luke though, he’s the best thing to happen to that sport in decades.
Going through the other gold medallists one by one
Swimming (Men's 4 x 200); rowing Quad sculls; lightweight double sculls; equestrian; men's eight; women's sprint (Cycling) - All team golds
Trap, women's kite (Sailing) - low profile for SPOTY tbh
Toby Roberts - some stunning climbing achievements including gold at Olympics, 2 world cup lead wins and tough routes but climbing is one of those sports like ultra long distance running and mountaineering that exists in it's own sphere. See Jasmin Paris not getting in too.
Cross country cycling - Pidcock. Bit unlucky to miss out perhaps.
In addition to his Olympic gold:
2024 (5) 1st Cross-country, Olympic Games UCI XCO World Cup 1st Nové Město 1st Crans-Montana UCI XCC World Cup 1st Crans-Montana Shimano Super Cup 1st La Nucia
Good point about a number of the gold medals being to teams rather than individuals. That some sports count more than others is disappointing, for the vast majority of Olympic sports it’s the single biggest event on their calendar.
If Phil Foden had not got in Bellingham way, and every other England players, in the summer we'd probably be celebrating a Soccer individual and team winner.
Not a surprise Foden has now been exposed at Club and international level as an overrated 21st century Ray Pass it Sideways Wilkins
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I'm a usually Tory but not now PBer. And have read the speech. Comments:
Loads of straw man arguments. Complete contortions over the fact we have just had 14 years of Tory government. She objects to the arguments wokerati put up about stuff - fine - but she is passionate about free speech, so that's part of the mix.
Central problem is in the quote from the speech here:
The best governments do a few things well, not many things badly.
Which is a simple lie direct. This removes any seriousness she may have elsewhere. She says nothing in the speech to indicate the smallest departure from the social democracy we have has without a break since 1945. That is: The cradle to grave state (health, education, safety net), NATO and regulated private enterprise.
That good governance is to do only a few things is a lie.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Yes, quite a poor speech, and littered with typos, does nobody check these things before they're published? Some ludicrous stuff in there, like the idea that the left has no concept of liberty! Where does she get that from? Idiotic stuff. The Tories really screwed up offering the members a choice between her and the loathsome Jenrick.
Far from it, a few polls even have the Tories ahead now and Badenoch and certainly Jenrick could do a deal with Farage to form a government in a hung parliament. Whereas Cleverly and Tugendhat probably couldn't
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
Reform - and more significantly Reform voters - see their party as the natural successor to the Conservative party. The HY opinion of "they're tories, they will come back to us" isn't rooted in reality, with no evidence to support it.
We don't need most of them to come back to us if a Tory and Reform government is formed with Tory and Reform ministers in it, or even Reform confidence and supply for Kemi
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Yes, quite a poor speech, and littered with typos, does nobody check these things before they're published? Some ludicrous stuff in there, like the idea that the left has no concept of liberty! Where does she get that from? Idiotic stuff. The Tories really screwed up offering the members a choice between her and the loathsome Jenrick.
When libertarianism had a brief spike in the U.K., I recall a brilliantly funny column in the Guardian.
Apparently, liberty of the individual was Bad Libertarianism. Whereas handing over control to the benevolent government was Good Libertarianism. So good in fact, that it was the real Libertarianism.
There is a chunk of the British left, who do indeed, see little value in rights outside what is granted by The State.
Hence the comic inability to understand what was wrong with the previous, insane, attempt at ID cards.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
I don't know what this 'just yesterday' shite is about. My view that we should have supported Assad hasn't changed - secret prisons and a garage full of Ferraris have not convinced me otherwise, nor did the revelations of Saddam or Gadaffi's excesses in those cases. They were dictators, and in the case of the first two (in my opinion) worse than Assad. But they performed a role in keeping down worse forces, that have now been unleashed, as has been proven in the catastrophic events that followed.
I agree with you that the chances of this being a success is remote, but one has to have hope and the idea that one should give just give up and keep in office a murderous dictator is appalling, even if the alternative likely ends up being possibly worse. Give people a chance to escape the Assad regime.
I note you and @leon said nobody would return to Syria. It appears they are flooding in. Personally if it were me I would wait and see before returning. Also I note this morning the BBC reporter was a Syrian woman who left years ago and has been reporting from outside Syria. This was her first report from inside Syria and without any headscarf whatsoever.
It might all fall apart, but give them a chance. Don't condemn them before they have even had a chance. They deserve it.
As for @leon's incorrect post about Syrians fighting each other in Manchester yesterday; that was appalling and borderline incitement to violence to right wing thugs. He would get away with it here, but if posted say on X (where I presume he sourced it) he could be getting close to getting his collar felt if it did result in a right wing backlash.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
They could only do that if there was another chance of a Tory and LD coalition government as with Cameron and Clegg.
However there is next to none after Brexit and next to none at all once Tugendhat was rejected who was the only Tory leader Davey might have dealt with and the only Tory leader who might have won back the bluewall seats the Tories would need to win to have a chance of a slim majority and not need Reform support to govern
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
The Kemster can't win a GE while the Fukkers are at 20+. That's just a politics fact. So there is no point in trying to appeal to people with tertiary education, a full set of teeth and cars where all the panels are the same colour. She's got to see off the Fukkers first, and that means doing stupid shit like this speech and a lot more like it.
Being Trump adjacent or MAGA-curious isn't the mark of Cain Dingle that it was in 2016-20. People are more acculturated to that stripe of politics now and some even quite like it. I wasn't around for the election but I would hazard a guess that the usual right wing shitc*nts on here got very comfortable with the notion of Trump47 very quickly.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
That doesn't make any sense. Regardless of what Labour and the Lib Dems are polling now you've still got to squeeze all of the ex Conservatives who voted for them in July. Tory poll numbers are equally abysmal so it's not like there's any evidence that they're coming back to you.
The Tories are now winning four July Labour voters for every one July Tory lost to Labour
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
Defining Reform as a third bloc is hard. The important bits of the Reform agenda are two fold:
To actually do what the Tories said they would do over small boats and migration but didn't. And to present getting stuff done as simple and popular rather than complex, divisive and messy.
To be a party for grown ups you can't talk only populist simplistic nonsense; and where the Tories can now stand on migration/boats is unclear since they have failed on all fronts so can't affirmatively present themselves as different and better than Reform.
So far Badenoch has no plan to get to the tricky destination.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
Defining Reform as a third bloc is hard. The important bits of the Reform agenda are two fold:
To actually do what the Tories said they would do over small boats and migration but didn't. And to present getting stuff done as simple and popular rather than complex, divisive and messy.
To be a party for grown ups you can't talk only populist simplistic nonsense; and where the Tories can now stand on migration/boats is unclear since they have failed on all fronts so can't affirmatively present themselves as different and better than Reform.
So far Badenoch has no plan to get to the tricky destination.
I agree with all that. However, the dividing line is there if they want it.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
I thought it was very good, a clear shift back to Conservatives offering a choice not an echo of Labour and the LDs.
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
That doesn't make any sense. Regardless of what Labour and the Lib Dems are polling now you've still got to squeeze all of the ex Conservatives who voted for them in July. Tory poll numbers are equally abysmal so it's not like there's any evidence that they're coming back to you.
The Tories are now winning four July Labour voters for every one July Tory lost to Labour
Doesn't that mean the Tories will finish the next election on about 80%?
Kemi's speech to the Washington think tank felt like it was written by an intern: just a list of hackneyed right-wing bugbears that had been overheard over the years and only vaguely understood. And this from the supposed warrior princess of the anti-Woke crusade. Nothing new or imaginative. No vim or intellectual heft. Disappointing.
A cabinet minister will say the government needs to operate "more like a start-up" to deliver public services more effectively.
It is rather amusing to see Labour MPs now agreeing with what Tory MPs have been saying for ages, about the bureaucracy of state now having taken on a life of its own, part of which is to generate sufficient inertia to anything changing that the minsters simply stop trying.
As I may have said a few times already, we are about to witness in the US a concerted effort to take this on from a bunch of outsiders. It will be very interesting to see how far they get before the interfering lawyers and lobbyists put a stop to anything that actually saves money. We’ve already seen a fair few Senators doing the bidding of their sponsors by threatening to hold up confirmation hearings in key departments.
Yes for Farage to become PM Reform would need to win most seats, in which case Kemi would reluctantly give him confidence and supply. Otherwise if the Tories won most seats it would end up Farage giving confidence and supply to Kemi.
While if Labour still won most seats Starmer would stay PM with likely confidence and supply from Davey and the LDs
I don't think that's necessarily true. For the Tories to back Reform into power risks ending them as a party (so does *not* backing Reform but tough choices come from performing that badly).
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
No, Reform are a right of centre party like the Tories. Given if the Tories hold balance of power Starmer could not form a government anyway and it would be political suicide for the Tories to keep Starmer in office then they would have no choice but to do a deal with Farage
That's your opinion. Some in Labour thought that of the Lib Dems too in 2010.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
Defining Reform as a third bloc is hard. The important bits of the Reform agenda are two fold:
To actually do what the Tories said they would do over small boats and migration but didn't. And to present getting stuff done as simple and popular rather than complex, divisive and messy.
To be a party for grown ups you can't talk only populist simplistic nonsense; and where the Tories can now stand on migration/boats is unclear since they have failed on all fronts so can't affirmatively present themselves as different and better than Reform.
So far Badenoch has no plan to get to the tricky destination.
I agree with all that. However, the dividing line is there if they want it.
And that's the question.
One aspect of Reform is pure Tory Id; saying the stuff that they wish they could say. Berating them for all the stuff that they wished they had done in office but couldn't. None of it would work in power, but by golly it would feel so good if it did.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. It's as if she's arguing that the liberal left has been running the UK for the last 14 years - she's basically disavowing her own party. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Yes, quite a poor speech, and littered with typos, does nobody check these things before they're published? Some ludicrous stuff in there, like the idea that the left has no concept of liberty! Where does she get that from? Idiotic stuff. The Tories really screwed up offering the members a choice between her and the loathsome Jenrick.
When libertarianism had a brief spike in the U.K., I recall a brilliantly funny column in the Guardian.
Apparently, liberty of the individual was Bad Libertarianism. Whereas handing over control to the benevolent government was Good Libertarianism. So good in fact, that it was the real Libertarianism.
There is a chunk of the British left, who do indeed, see little value in rights outside what is granted by The State.
Hence the comic inability to understand what was wrong with the previous, insane, attempt at ID cards.
I guess her ludicrous caricature is more widely believed than I thought. It's a patently absurd idea, as even a glancing acquaintance with the history of Western political thought would demonstrate. Is there a single example of a personal freedom that we enjoy that was won by the political right in this country?
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
That is the defence of Churchill's call for chemical weapons to be used against Iraqi citizens back in the day: that tear gas is kinder than bullets and bombs. If you want to boycott £5 notes, I can help with that.
Tear gas is more merciful than bullets and bombs. Which is why police forces around he world use it.
Chlorine, Sulphur Mustard and Sarin aren’t.
Tear gas is no fun. Any other PBers been tear-gassed?
But I'm glad the Italian cops weren't using mustard gas.
Off topic, but on Badenoch. When she was elected I thought she may be a genuinely formidable opponent to the left/centre, and a breath of fresh air for the Conservative Party. I think I was wrong. The evidence is stacking up against her. I've just carefully read her Washington speech, and come to the conclusion that it's awful. Intellectually incoherent. All over the place. Far too focused on culture wars. Hints of conspiracy theory. No real attempt to offer solutions to the challenges we, or the right, faces. I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here: https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/ I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
Too many UK politicians - but especially Conservatives - go to America to make speeches, which inevitably means having to speak to American political points and values, which are often far removed from British ones. The UK political class really needs to get over its obsession with a foreign, indeed, alien, system and values culture.
Seeking to cosy up with this Trump/MAGA manifestation of the GOP seems unwise. There is a constituency in the UK for that sort of politics but I'd have thought Farage/RUK have something of a lock on it. To prise that vote away and back to the Cons without forfeiting the centre ground (and therefore any realistic chance of winning the next GE) is a very big ask.
The Kemster can't win a GE while the Fukkers are at 20+. That's just a politics fact. So there is no point in trying to appeal to people with tertiary education, a full set of teeth and cars where all the panels are the same colour. She's got to see off the Fukkers first, and that means doing stupid shit like this speech and a lot more like it.
Being Trump adjacent or MAGA-curious isn't the mark of Cain Dingle that it was in 2016-20. People are more acculturated to that stripe of politics now and some even quite like it. I wasn't around for the election but I would hazard a guess that the usual right wing shitc*nts on here got very comfortable with the notion of Trump47 very quickly.
The Trump win has got all the wrong people loving life, that's for sure.
On the strategy, I don't think the Cons can see off RUK. Putting myself in the head of one of their voters (I know but needs must sometimes) I'm sticking with Nige regardless of what Kemi Badenoch comes out with. He's a solid bloke, he gets it, whereas she ... well she's just not my type.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
That is the defence of Churchill's call for chemical weapons to be used against Iraqi citizens back in the day: that tear gas is kinder than bullets and bombs. If you want to boycott £5 notes, I can help with that.
Tear gas is more merciful than bullets and bombs. Which is why police forces around he world use it.
Chlorine, Sulphur Mustard and Sarin aren’t.
Tear gas is no fun. Any other PBers been tear-gassed?
But I'm glad the Italian cops weren't using mustard gas.
Pepper spray also seems to be somewhat unpleasant too.
Saydnaya Prison sounds like Tuol Sleng, under Comrade Duch.
Different pedigree.
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
The Syrian regime(s), right from post independence, were considered the most paranoid and nasty in the area. Even by the standards of the other dictatorships.
Remember that just yesterday, a poster was saying that we should have supported Assad in the civil war.
To be fair, Assad used chemical weapons against civilians. Which are apparently more merciful.
That is the defence of Churchill's call for chemical weapons to be used against Iraqi citizens back in the day: that tear gas is kinder than bullets and bombs. If you want to boycott £5 notes, I can help with that.
Tear gas is more merciful than bullets and bombs. Which is why police forces around he world use it.
Chlorine, Sulphur Mustard and Sarin aren’t.
Tear gas is no fun. Any other PBers been tear-gassed?
But I'm glad the Italian cops weren't using mustard gas.
Yes.
The fucking French pricks tear gassed me in May 2022.
Business Confidence has fallen to its lowest level in almost 2 years after the budget as businesses face rising costs and falling customer confidence and declining orders.
It's quite plausible that the government's narrative on the economy has already done enough damage — knock about 1% off of growth over the medium term — that it's effect will ultimately be larger than the "£22 billion blackhole". If they keep this up they will talk the UK into a recession.
I've been saying for years that Reeves was a duffer, but honestly I still expected better than what we have seen so far.
Comments
That said, the BBC’s largest audience of the Games was… the women’s 800m final.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/c86l33xy7x0o
As Assad's prisons open, another mind-boggling fact to recall. After '45, Syria took in many senior nazis and weaponry. Among them: Alois Brunner--Eichmann's lieutenant. Alois Brunner designed Assad's systems. He died only in 2010.
Hence-- the *literal* comparisons to camps.
https://x.com/dmdebruijn/status/1865968758038163673
In my view that's either great value or a screaming lay or just about right.
Not a surprise Foden has now been exposed at Club and international level as an overrated 21st century Ray Pass it Sideways Wilkins
The vagary of the criteria are part of its charm.
I know it has been linked to before, but if anybody's interested it's here:
https://conservativehome.com/2024/12/07/if-we-dont-defend-our-culture-who-will-badenochs-washington-speech-in-full/
I'd be interested to know what our right-wing PBers think of it.
If they want to present a lifetime achievement award, then create one. I’ll nominate Lewis Hamilton this year.
The only thing Ryan Giggs did the year he won, was his sister-in-law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei9iM_zzzQk
In any case with Labour already polling under 30% and the LDs still on only 11-12% there aren't many more Labour or LD swing voters who might consider voting Tory the Tories can squeeze.
While Reform are polling 20%+ with voters of a kind who would like most of the Badenoch speech and it will also have gone down well even with Farage who Kemi might need to do a deal with to form a right of centre government if Labour lose their majority at the next GE
In any event, Root is one of the greats.
Root has longevity on his side though, and the fact he's done it just about everywhere (apart from Australia, and that will be put right soon.
If Reform were close to the line - say, 300 MPs, with 50 or so Tories - then yes, I think that'd be the most likely outcome but if it were more split, with Lab+LD+Grn holding more seats than Reform alone then the Tories might be best off just sitting it out, letting Starmer (or his successor) form a left-of-centre government and compete for the opposition vote against Reform.
We discussed America’s special relationship with the UK, the importance of trade relations, and the growing support for conservative principles across the globe.
https://x.com/SpeakerJohnson/status/1865827801426706842
When England were in the shite, he regularly pulled us out of the mire.
His only weakness was that his record as Captain wasn't stellar but a lot of the blame for that has to go on the other players.
Brook is fortunate to have started his test career under Stokes, where the traditional toxic England dressing room seems to be a thing of the past.
I await your most outrageous answer with enthusiasm.
Obviously riding high on the back of a comprehensive win, but it is not clear how popular his policies will actually be in practice (a bit like Brexit...)
And when the bromance fades the fallout could be spectacular.
Four years from now, being Trump's buddy could be toxic.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/uae/2024/12/09/keir-starmer-uae-visit-saudi-arabia/
https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/uae/2024/12/09/keir-starmer-visit-the-uae-in-pictures/
Still no sign of him at the F1 yesterday though, which was about five miles from the mosque.
Fortunately for Kemi B, approximately zero voters are paying any attention at all to anything she's saying right now.
Not all parties right-of-centre are necessarily natural allies and given how many Reform votes are coming from Labour, it's a mistake to make a crude left / right split.
There is an argument that the Tories could put Farage in solely to fail but then they become tainted with that failure (not least because they'd have to vote Reform's policies in), and in any case, that strategy has been tried in other countries only to backfire spectacularly.
If the Tories have any sense (doubtful), they would seek to define Reform as a third bloc in its own right rather than an ally.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fCyU9YLt3LQ
There's no harm on a few occasions to just stand up and say "jfdi"
Stop bellyaching, stop coming up with excuses, pull your bloody fingers out
Just Fecking Do It
Way down the list of captains, but a contender for our best ever wielder of the willow.
Chlorine, Sulphur Mustard and Sarin aren’t.
Some ludicrous stuff in there, like the idea that the left has no concept of liberty! Where does she get that from? Idiotic stuff. The Tories really screwed up offering the members a choice between her and the loathsome Jenrick.
https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlysatisfying/comments/13u2irc/this_crab_cleaning_its_eyes/?rdt=54704
However, they are its eyes. The gonads do not dangle, whether male or female. (Mind, the parasitised - but let's not go there.)
Loads of straw man arguments.
Complete contortions over the fact we have just had 14 years of Tory government.
She objects to the arguments wokerati put up about stuff - fine - but she is passionate about free speech, so that's part of the mix.
Central problem is in the quote from the speech here:
The best governments do a few things well, not many things badly.
Which is a simple lie direct. This removes any seriousness she may have elsewhere. She says nothing in the speech to indicate the smallest departure from the social democracy we have has without a break since 1945. That is: The cradle to grave state (health, education, safety net), NATO and regulated private enterprise.
That good governance is to do only a few things is a lie.
Chief constables tell Home Secretary they will be forced to make major staffing cuts because of £300m shortfall in funding settlement
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/yvette-copper-police-thousands-officers-job-cuts-funding/
Joined-up government from Labour.
Apparently, liberty of the individual was Bad Libertarianism. Whereas handing over control to the benevolent government was Good Libertarianism. So good in fact, that it was the real Libertarianism.
There is a chunk of the British left, who do indeed, see little value in rights outside what is granted by The State.
Hence the comic inability to understand what was wrong with the previous, insane, attempt at ID cards.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8xjqvngekjo
A cabinet minister will say the government needs to operate "more like a start-up" to deliver public services more effectively.
I note you and @leon said nobody would return to Syria. It appears they are flooding in. Personally if it were me I would wait and see before returning. Also I note this morning the BBC reporter was a Syrian woman who left years ago and has been reporting from outside Syria. This was her first report from inside Syria and without any headscarf whatsoever.
It might all fall apart, but give them a chance. Don't condemn them before they have even had a chance. They deserve it.
As for @leon's incorrect post about Syrians fighting each other in Manchester yesterday; that was appalling and borderline incitement to violence to right wing thugs. He would get away with it here, but if posted say on X (where I presume he sourced it) he could be getting close to getting his collar felt if it did result in a right wing backlash.
However there is next to none after Brexit and next to none at all once Tugendhat was rejected who was the only Tory leader Davey might have dealt with and the only Tory leader who might have won back the bluewall seats the Tories would need to win to have a chance of a slim majority and not need Reform support to govern
Being Trump adjacent or MAGA-curious isn't the mark of Cain Dingle that it was in 2016-20. People are more acculturated to that stripe of politics now and some even quite like it. I wasn't around for the election but I would hazard a guess that the usual right wing shitc*nts on here got very comfortable with the notion of Trump47 very quickly.
In coming up with workable solutions and having the human skills to implement them, he failed utterly.
To actually do what the Tories said they would do over small boats and migration but didn't. And to present getting stuff done as simple and popular rather than complex, divisive and messy.
To be a party for grown ups you can't talk only populist simplistic nonsense; and where the Tories can now stand on migration/boats is unclear since they have failed on all fronts so can't affirmatively present themselves as different and better than Reform.
So far Badenoch has no plan to get to the tricky destination.
SKS goes abroad - why won’t SKS do his job at home?
As long as we can have a Brexit referendum first.
As I may have said a few times already, we are about to witness in the US a concerted effort to take this on from a bunch of outsiders. It will be very interesting to see how far they get before the interfering lawyers and lobbyists put a stop to anything that actually saves money. We’ve already seen a fair few Senators doing the bidding of their sponsors by threatening to hold up confirmation hearings in key departments.
One aspect of Reform is pure Tory Id; saying the stuff that they wish they could say. Berating them for all the stuff that they wished they had done in office but couldn't. None of it would work in power, but by golly it would feel so good if it did.
Really hard to repudiate that.
But I'm glad the Italian cops weren't using mustard gas.
On the strategy, I don't think the Cons can see off RUK. Putting myself in the head of one of their voters (I know but needs must sometimes) I'm sticking with Nige regardless of what Kemi Badenoch comes out with. He's a solid bloke, he gets it, whereas she ... well she's just not my type.
The fucking French pricks tear gassed me in May 2022.
I've been saying for years that Reeves was a duffer, but honestly I still expected better than what we have seen so far.