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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Preview: March 20th 2014

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited March 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Preview: March 20th 2014

Wroxham on Broadland (Liberal Democrat defence)
Result of last election (2011): Conservatives 34, Liberal Democrats 12, Labour 1 (Conservative majority of 21)
Result of ward at last election (2011): Emboldened denotes elected
Liberal Democrats 985, 829
Conservatives 741, 537
Labour 227
Greens 197
Candidates duly nominated:

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • They said the season was over for Spurs, it is now!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited March 2014
    Cellarhead sounds an awesome place and possibly a character from an Irvine Welsh novel.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING:

    https://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/41036/

    "David Cameron has lost touch with the Conservatives' core support base and should be replaced by someone who "spends less time on focus groups and opinion polls", Lord Tebbit has declared.....I hope that change can be brought about and that before the General Election, we can feel like conservatives again and feel like the Prime Minister is a son of Thatcher and not a son of Tony Blair......[The Coalition is] beginning to smell past its sell by date, and the sooner it is broken up the better, never to be returned to," he urged.
  • Hopi Sen is channelling Morris Dancer

    Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen 1m

    Fair warning: Anyone who over-interprets tonights opinion polls will be slapped on face with my wet fish, the Single Pollock of Doom (tm)
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo still trending like gudduns on Twitter.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    One thing is good about this Budget - it has massively increased my understanding of the pensions system, thanks to the very eloquent posts of the PB Brains Trust.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    CCHQ Press Office @CCHQPress

    Labour MP:"I've spoken to a few colleagues & we all agree that it was a bad speech.Morale is very low at the moment" http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5519814/ed-under-pressure-for-budget-response.html

    Red on red incoming ;-)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,709
    edited March 2014
    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    '[Balls] said scrapping the requirement to take out an annuity altogether was a potentially "reckless and irresponsible" move, which could "leave people running out of money".

    "Will people with ordinary-sized pension pots be able and encouraged to withdraw all of their pension savings from their pension pot and either try and invest it themselves or spend it?" he asked.

    "And if they do, what happens when the money runs out? Who then picks up the tab?"'

    bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26649162

    This is patronizing stuff from Labour. How can the bloke who was reckless and irresponsible with the finances of an entire nation possibly have the gall to lecture the rest of us? Miliband needs to get in Darling back now!
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Who cares what Tebbit says? He has loathed Cameron from the outset, has he not?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING:

    https://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/41036/

    "David Cameron has lost touch with the Conservatives' core support base and should be replaced by someone who "spends less time on focus groups and opinion polls", Lord Tebbit has declared.....I hope that change can be brought about and that before the General Election, we can feel like conservatives again and feel like the Prime Minister is a son of Thatcher and not a son of Tony Blair......[The Coalition is] beginning to smell past its sell by date, and the sooner it is broken up the better, never to be returned to," he urged.

    Tebbit attacks Coalition .... again .... shocker !!

    In other news ....

    Putin has no more territorial claims in Europe .... Spurs exit Europe .... again .... Squirrels become favourite PB snack ....

  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371


    CCHQ Press Office @CCHQPress

    Labour MP:"I've spoken to a few colleagues & we all agree that it was a bad speech.Morale is very low at the moment" http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5519814/ed-under-pressure-for-budget-response.html

    Red on red incoming ;-)

    It's strange, when Tebbit was in the cabinet he was one of the ones I disliked the most. Since he has become a Lord, he has been fantastic.

    Go Lord T!
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362


    CCHQ Press Office @CCHQPress

    Labour MP:"I've spoken to a few colleagues & we all agree that it was a bad speech.Morale is very low at the moment" http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5519814/ed-under-pressure-for-budget-response.html

    Red on red incoming ;-)

    It's strange, when Tebbit was in the cabinet he was one of the ones I disliked the most. Since he has become a Lord, he has been fantastic.

    Go Lord T!
    You must have watched to much spitting image ;-)

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    Presumably, given the euphoria which has gripped the nation since George Osborne sat down yesterday lunchtime, it'll be one Conservative hold and three Conservative gains.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited March 2014
    BobaFett said:

    One thing is good about this Budget - it has massively increased my understanding of the pensions system, thanks to the very eloquent posts of the PB Brains Trust.

    I'd teach this stuff in schools together with mortgages. I had one of my guys came to me a couple of years ago to ask what a gilt was, as his wife was making some decisions on her pension at her work and neither of them had heard of gilts.

    People who are saving via defined contribution do get progressively more clued up in my experience which is great, but the education system could help on this rather than wasting time on quadratic bloody equations or something else 99% of us never use!


  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited March 2014
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26672836

    Ridiculous how this interview has become some big news story and makes Steve Webb sound out of touch. Nothing to do with the meat of the proposal (good or bad), but been spun into this headline...

    "Minister fuels pension debate with Lamborghini comment"

    No wonder politicians don't give straight answers, look what happens when they do to a ridiculous question. Do we honestly think pensioners are going to take their whole pension pot and buy a car they saw on Top Gear...

    The more sensible questions surround things like if they don't leave enough for 30-40 years worth of life and / or investing in buy to let and pushing up house prices.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @‌ david herdson FPT

    I'd amend the slogan to "Helping Hard Working People" (verbs are good, active voice is good, short & punchy).

    And then use it for a lot of posters:

    Helping you save for retirement. HHWP

    Lower income taxes for most people HHWP

    Making childcare easier. HHWP

    A little like the tesco "every little helps" marketing strategy really...
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited March 2014


    You must have watched to much spitting image ;-)

    speaking of which, there's an Arena program on BBC4 tonight at 9pm, looking back...

  • glwglw Posts: 9,954

    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    So essentially Balls and co. are saying that people who have worked hard and prudently saved all their lives will blow it all upon retirement and not think of their future. It's not just patronising, it's illogical. Those retirees are the least likely to spend money that they will need.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited March 2014
    SeanT said:

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    I fear this meme has had its day, don't you? You're like someone who joyously f*cked an old sheep to death, now publicly [moderated] on the fleece.

    I wouldn't know how that feels, you are obviously relating to personal experience.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    So the Tories will win at Wroxham and Cellarhead !
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The principle of removing as much as one chooses is a good one. If someone has saved all their life into a pension they are probably the least likely amongst us to blow it on a spending spree.

    I think Balls is projecting his own incontinent spending onto others...

    Incidentally, the main reason annuities are such poor value is that they are largely based on Bond yields, which are artificially depressed by QE.

    If there is a much reduced annuity market, there is less demand for bonds, and higher yields, therefore more expensive government borrowing...
    glw said:

    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    So essentially Balls and co. are saying that people who have worked hard and prudently saved all their lives will blow it all upon retirement and not think of their future. It's not just patronising, it's illogical. Those retirees are the least likely to spend money that they will need.
    glw said:

    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    So essentially Balls and co. are saying that people who have worked hard and prudently saved all their lives will blow it all upon retirement and not think of their future. It's not just patronising, it's illogical. Those retirees are the least likely to spend money that they will need.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    The effete posh chaps are still very upset so why must you continue laughing at them?
    After all, the PB tories were definitely right about pasties not being a thing, weren't they?

    *chortle*
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SeanT said:

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    I fear this meme has had its day, don't you? You're like someone who joyously f*cked an old sheep to death, now publicly [moderated] on the fleece.

    I wouldn't know how that feels, you are obviously relating to personal experience.
    What ? A dead sheep next to a young Thai girl ?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,709

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26672836

    Ridiculous how this interview has become some big news story and makes Steve Webb sound out of touch. Nothing to do with the meat of the proposal (good or bad), but been spun into this headline...

    The BBC and the Left are in despair. They thought Miliband was cruising to victory. Suddenly Osborne's master-stroke, Miliband's haplessness and Balls's bumbling condescension have knocked such presumptions into a cocked hat. The bingo tweet and Lamborghini stuff is just a 'look squirrel' ploy. However, I fear for Labour. They're looking naked today. If they've nothing to say in opposition, the thought will go, what the hell will be the point of them in government?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    glw said:

    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    So essentially Balls and co. are saying that people who have worked hard and prudently saved all their lives will blow it all upon retirement and not think of their future. It's not just patronising, it's illogical. Those retirees are the least likely to spend money that they will need.
    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited March 2014
    twitter.com/bobwiggin/status/446744324148318208/photo/1

    No Pork, obviously ran it's course ;-)
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Some of us would be more than happy if the Tories were to have a Tesco marketing strategy :)
    Charles said:

    @‌ david herdson FPT

    I'd amend the slogan to "Helping Hard Working People" (verbs are good, active voice is good, short & punchy).

    And then use it for a lot of posters:

    Helping you save for retirement. HHWP

    Lower income taxes for most people HHWP

    Making childcare easier. HHWP

    A little like the tesco "every little helps" marketing strategy really...

  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    I fear this meme has had its day, don't you? You're like someone who joyously f*cked an old sheep to death, now publicly [moderated] on the fleece.

    I wouldn't know how that feels, you are obviously relating to personal experience.
    What ? A dead sheep next to a young Thai girl ?
    Is he sure those Thai girls are actually girls?
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    I fear this meme has had its day, don't you? You're like someone who joyously f*cked an old sheep to death, now publicly [moderated] on the fleece.

    I wouldn't know how that feels, you are obviously relating to personal experience.
    I was just trying to put myself in your head, to *feel* what it is to be you. It took an imaginative leap.
    Don't do it Sean.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    Are you that actual person that finds Marcus Brigstocke funny ?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    TGOHF said:

    We can all join in now #LetThemEatBingo #ToryBingo:

    http://www.torybingo.com/

    Are you that actual person that finds Marcus Brigstocke funny ?
    There is no such thing as a "person that finds Marcus Brigstocke funny".
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    The principle of removing as much as one chooses is a good one. If someone has saved all their life into a pension they are probably the least likely amongst us to blow it on a spending spree.

    I think Balls is projecting his own incontinent spending onto others...

    Incidentally, the main reason annuities are such poor value is that they are largely based on Bond yields, which are artificially depressed by QE.

    If there is a much reduced annuity market, there is less demand for bonds, and higher yields, therefore more expensive government borrowing...


    glw said:

    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    So essentially Balls and co. are saying that people who have worked hard and prudently saved all their lives will blow it all upon retirement and not think of their future. It's not just patronising, it's illogical. Those retirees are the least likely to spend money that they will need.
    glw said:

    Oh no! The sentiments last night about not trusting people with their own money, which we were assured were the musings of some obscure former Labour apparatchik, have now been taken up by Balls himself:

    So essentially Balls and co. are saying that people who have worked hard and prudently saved all their lives will blow it all upon retirement and not think of their future. It's not just patronising, it's illogical. Those retirees are the least likely to spend money that they will need.
    And if bond yields do rise that will help close corporate pension defecits too :-)

    Annuity buyers are the sacrificial lambs that have been used to appease mortgage holders since 2008. Interest rates have been massaged down in the economy helped by limitless ( literally! ) cash from the BoE to buy gilts and hence raise their price and so ( it follows mathematically ) lower their yield. Nobody wants to listen to the howls of anguish thus caused. I suspect because people in their late fifties or early sixties ( I am neither ) are not as "electorally photogenic" as 34 yr olds with two young kids and a mortgage.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    RodCrosby said:


    You must have watched to much spitting image ;-)

    speaking of which, there's an Arena program on BBC4 tonight at 9pm, looking back...

    Thanks mr Crosby.

  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    '[Balls] said scrapping the requirement to take out an annuity altogether was a potentially "reckless and irresponsible" move, which could "leave people running out of money".

    "Will people with ordinary-sized pension pots be able and encouraged to withdraw all of their pension savings from their pension pot and either try and invest it themselves or spend it?" he asked.

    "And if they do, what happens when the money runs out? Who then picks up the tab?"'

    bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26649162

    isn't this the same Balls who withdrew the nations savings, spent it twice over and the money run out as liam byrne reminded us, and guess whose picking up the tab for their recklessness -us. talk about cats and kettles
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Mr Tebbit believes that The Bow Group have research stating that UKIP membership could overtake Tory membership within a decade. Do we know the current numbers?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING:

    https://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/41036/

    "David Cameron has lost touch with the Conservatives' core support base and should be replaced by someone who "spends less time on focus groups and opinion polls", Lord Tebbit has declared.....I hope that change can be brought about and that before the General Election, we can feel like conservatives again and feel like the Prime Minister is a son of Thatcher and not a son of Tony Blair......[The Coalition is] beginning to smell past its sell by date, and the sooner it is broken up the better, never to be returned to," he urged.

    Reposting the same article in a slightly different guise doesn't make it any less unexciting.

    That's what, the 6th time you've linked to Norman's thoughts this afternoon?
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Which is the more patronising statement?

    A) Poor people are happy because bingo and beer are cheaper.

    B) Poor people will spend their money on fast cars if allowed to withdraw their pension pot.

    Personally I find neither particularly patronising, because I am happier that booze is cheaper and I will probably spend any windfalls on loose women and fast drugs.

    But I do miss Tim's analysis after the big set-pieces. Annoying though he could be, he always had an original line to push. He would've looked beyond the bingo nonsense and started chipping away at Osborne over something else.

    Him and SeanT's fisticuffs were better than any political rumbles you see on telly.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    kjohnw said:

    isn't this the same Balls who withdrew the nations savings, spent it twice over and the money run out as liam byrne reminded us, and guess whose picking up the tab for their recklessness -us. talk about cats and kettles

    Labour lecturing the public about financial responsibility is like an arsonist telling us not to play with matches.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Mr Tebbit believes that The Bow Group have research stating that UKIP membership could overtake Tory membership within a decade. Do we know the current numbers?

    Yes.

    If you had half a brain you could find them easily.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2014
    "Question Time" panellists tonight :

    Danny Alexander .. Andy Burnham .. Dominic Raab .. Jill Kirby .. Val McDermid
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,709
    I have to say, Labour's response to this budget has been the worst I've seen from any opposition in all my decades of following politics - never mind one a year from the general election. Compare the way in which Blair savaged Major right until the last. I can only assume that the rumours are true, Miliband thinks he's a shoe in for prime minister, and he and Balls just didn't think they needed to bother. They might be in for a shock.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    JackW said:

    "Question Time" panellists tonight :

    Danny Alexander .. Andy Burnham .. Dominic Raab .. Jill Kirby .. Val McDermid

    Raab is a future Tory leader, I think. Certainly a future front bencher.
  • nestreetnestreet Posts: 8
    Balls logic could be extended to not allowing anyone with an income to be entrusted with their own earnings.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    I get the feeling Lord Tebbit doesn't like Cameron very much?
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    nestreet said:

    Balls logic could be extended to not allowing anyone with an income to be entrusted with their own earnings.

    Imagine if the Tories said they wanted to know how people spent their benefits.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Steve Webb seems to have a pretty safe seat, with 11 000 majority, an appealing state school backstory, and proven competence in government, in an area not likely to antagonise the left of his party. He is 20/1 as next Lib Dem leader at William Hill.

    Seems attractive to me, unless there is something someone knows.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    nestreet said:

    Balls logic could be extended to not allowing anyone with an income to be entrusted with their own earnings.

    That's right, but why stop at money? We're currently allowed to do all sorts of things that can potentially have serious consequences, smoke, drink, get married, have children, take out mortgages, drive cars, join the army, but apparently letting people do what they believe is best with their own money is a step too far.

    Surely Labour should legislate to give the state full control over all our choices in life, so that nobody can ever do something that Labour disapproves of.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    New Ladbrokes market - East Dunbartonshire (Lib Dem Maj, Jo Swinson MP = 2,184)

    Lab 1/2
    LD 6/4
    SNP 50/1
    Con 100/1
    UKIP 100/1

    Note: this seat is held by the SNP at the Scottish Parliament (SNP Maj over Lab = 1,802).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, one is delighted to have proved an inspiration to another.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited March 2014

    I have to say, Labour's response to this budget has been the worst I've seen from any opposition in all my decades of following politics - never mind one a year from the general election. Compare the way in which Blair savaged Major right until the last. I can only assume that the rumours are true, Miliband thinks he's a shoe in for prime minister, and he and Balls just didn't think they needed to bother. They might be in for a shock.

    Perhaps they do think they are a "shoe-in" but I've not idea why they would think that given the feebleness of their mid-term lead, which is already well on it's way to deflating with over a year to go...

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
  • nestreet said:

    Balls logic could be extended to not allowing anyone with an income to be entrusted with their own earnings.

    Old people are different though to normal people in that they are quite clearly incapable &/or senile as so many of them vote and they tend not to vote Labour.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2014
    Cameron may be wrong about a number of things, but he was right about one thing: Too many Tweets do make a [moderated]
    GIN1138 said:

    I get the feeling Lord Tebbit doesn't like Cameron very much?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    FPT: Mr. LP and Mr. Jessop, I might give Inkscape a look later on. Right now I have a functional map for the whole of Denland (country-wide), which I'm rather glad about. I suspect I'll be able to make do with paint, and I didn't plan on trying to make the map look nice until many months away.

    Although, now I think about it, it's far too enormous to be included in an e-book. Might still do it for my site, but any e-book version would have to be simplified significantly.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    More likely they'll be on the State pension -the triple lock state pension.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Steve Webb seems to have a pretty safe seat, with 11 000 majority, an appealing state school backstory, and proven competence in government, in an area not likely to antagonise the left of his party. He is 20/1 as next Lib Dem leader at William Hill.

    Seems attractive to me, unless there is something someone knows.

    Just doesn't seem the party leader type to me. I like him a lot and think he's very good in the kind of role he has. But I struggle to see him as a party leader tbh.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited March 2014

    twitter.com/bobwiggin/status/446744324148318208/photo/1

    No Pork, obviously ran it's course ;-)

    To be fair we certainly won't be seeing massive PB tory hypocrites who where hysterical for days over Balls stammering at a budget statement now trying (and obviously failing) to take some non-existent moral high ground over an Osbrowne budget of 'wheezes'.

    Yet another relentlessly posturing and political budget lest we forget. Which is why they also don't have a leg to stand on for complaining when an issue becomes a political football. It's the inevitable result when Osbrowne's 'master strategies' produce incompetence so glaring and comical even the likes of wee Danny Alexander was laughing at it and mocking it.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    kjohnw said:

    '[Balls] said scrapping the requirement to take out an annuity altogether was a potentially "reckless and irresponsible" move, which could "leave people running out of money".

    "Will people with ordinary-sized pension pots be able and encouraged to withdraw all of their pension savings from their pension pot and either try and invest it themselves or spend it?" he asked.

    "And if they do, what happens when the money runs out? Who then picks up the tab?"'

    bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26649162

    isn't this the same Balls who withdrew the nations savings, spent it twice over and the money run out as liam byrne reminded us, and guess whose picking up the tab for their recklessness -us. talk about cats and kettles

    Or the same Balls as is planning to spend the Bankers' Bonus Tax about 26 times over?
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Mr Tebbit believes that The Bow Group have research stating that UKIP membership could overtake Tory membership within a decade. Do we know the current numbers?

    Colour me very very skeptical on that one.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,709
    GIN1138 said:

    I have to say, Labour's response to this budget has been the worst I've seen from any opposition in all my decades of following politics - never mind one a year from the general election. Compare the way in which Blair savaged Major right until the last. I can only assume that the rumours are true, Miliband thinks he's a shoe in for prime minister, and he and Balls just didn't think they needed to bother. They might be in for a shock.

    Perhaps they do think they are a "shoe-in" but I've not idea why they would think that given the feebleness of their mid-term lead, which is already well on it's way to deflating with over a year to go...

    I suspect Miliband is surrounded by a lot of callow youths who (like a number of Labour supporters on here) have no experience of Labour polling leads - even quite substantial ones - that turn out to be chimeras. There's also this seductive but unproven line bloggers like Mike Smithson have been disseminating: namely, that the current electoral structures and mechanics make a Labour victory almost a kind of mathematical truism. It sounds as if Miliband himself has been seduced by this stuff. Dangerous for him if so.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    So even following that logic the 95% have to be denied the freedom to access their own money and be forced to buy a State manipulated rip off annuity just in case 5% might lose out.??
  • yougov - 40 mins..

    with spurs out, now waiting for a 10%+ lead for the red team after shappygate.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    yougov - 40 mins..

    with spurs out, now waiting for a 10%+ lead for the red team after shappygate.

    Nah, 40% Tory lead after the most glorious budget by any chancellor ever and the worse response by a LOTO ever....surely.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Labour lead 6%......nailed on.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I don't think so. Steve Webb has drafted the Coalition policy on minimum pension income: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11619379

    By my reckoning there will be far fewer pensioners on means tested benefits. Those with private pensions will have it on top of this, whether they spend it in 20 months or 20 years.

    It looks as if this pension change was not a wheeze dreamt up recently, but rather one that has been in genesis for some time. Hopefully this has allowed the wrinkles to be ironed out.

    We shall see..
    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26672836

    Ridiculous how this interview has become some big news story and makes Steve Webb sound out of touch. Nothing to do with the meat of the proposal (good or bad), but been spun into this headline...

    The BBC and the Left are in despair. They thought Miliband was cruising to victory. Suddenly Osborne's master-stroke, Miliband's haplessness and Balls's bumbling condescension have knocked such presumptions into a cocked hat. The bingo tweet and Lamborghini stuff is just a 'look squirrel' ploy. However, I fear for Labour. They're looking naked today. If they've nothing to say in opposition, the thought will go, what the hell will be the point of them in government?
    It is the utter, unwavering, confident certainty of the most partisan Conservatives on here I find interesting.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Pork, Balls was lambasted for incompetence, not stuttering. Bleating about hecklers when he does it all the time is rancid hypocrisy.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Evening all and noted Hopi Sen made an interesting comment earlier on twitter about polls and not taking one or two too seriously. Which side of OGH is going to be the happy one in the coming days?

    Jack W and Mick Pork deserve to know whether the ARSE spoke wisely this week and Compouter needs to know if Mr Avery is going to expect those goalposts moved!
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    I said earlier this week that the Budget was a set-piece for the govt and Labour just had to ride it out. That's the game they are in.

    The time for a move on policy will come, but it is not now. They need clear air.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    welshowl said:

    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    So even following that logic the 95% have to be denied the freedom to access their own money and be forced to buy a State manipulated rip off annuity just in case 5% might lose out.??
    And of course there are already loads of people in the same boat as surbiton's hypothetical 5% - those that choose not to save for a pension at all.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    But isn't the whole point of the universal pension guarantee (or whatever it is called) that everyone will get the same minimum income & that will be sufficient to avoid the need for income support on top?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Mick_Pork said:

    twitter.com/bobwiggin/status/446744324148318208/photo/1

    No Pork, obviously ran it's course ;-)

    To be fair we certainly won't be seeing massive PB tory hypocrites who where hysterical for days over Balls stammering at a budget statement now trying (and obviously failing) to take some non-existent moral high ground over an Osbrowne budget of 'wheezes'.

    Yet another relentlessly posturing and political budget lest we forget. Which is why they also don't have a leg to stand on for complaining when an issue becomes a political football. It's the inevitable result when Osbrowne's 'master strategies' produce incompetence so glaring and comical even the likes of wee Danny Alexander was laughing at it and mocking it.
    A political budget. Whatever next?

    Still think downingstreetdocumentphotographgate was a put up job, Pork? It must be embarrassing being you.

  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Evening all and noted Hopi Sen made an interesting comment earlier on twitter about polls and not taking one or two too seriously. Which side of OGH is going to be the happy one in the coming days?

    Jack W and Mick Pork deserve to know whether the ARSE spoke wisely this week and Compouter needs to know if Mr Avery is going to expect those goalposts moved!

    As I said earlier Mike is hoping for no shift (MOE) - then he can reign supreme saying the two game-changers have cancelled each other out!
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    surbiton said:

    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !

    I doubt it would be anything like 5% as most people are going to be very conservative, realising that they need to live off that money for the rest of their lives.

    You are only thinking about the potential negatives. What about the people who would be better off with a more competitive annuity which will hopefully be promoted by this greater freedom, or better off taking more cash, or only cash, or re-investing in some other way? There are a lot of upsides to giving people more choices. Make pensions work for the pensioners, not for the pensions industry.

    Everybody seems to agree that defined contribution pensions are ineffective now, and that there are a lot of disincentives to saving when the returns can be so dismal. All the government wants to do is let people say "no, that's not good enough, I've found something better." Very few people are going to think blowing their savings is a good idea.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    He came close to running before, and may be seen as a unity candidate, as not too associated with either wing of the party: http://www.bloggers4steve.blogspot.co.uk/

    He also helped write the last manifesto, so a degree of backroom experience also.
    corporeal said:

    Steve Webb seems to have a pretty safe seat, with 11 000 majority, an appealing state school backstory, and proven competence in government, in an area not likely to antagonise the left of his party. He is 20/1 as next Lib Dem leader at William Hill.

    Seems attractive to me, unless there is something someone knows.

    Just doesn't seem the party leader type to me. I like him a lot and think he's very good in the kind of role he has. But I struggle to see him as a party leader tbh.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    Labour lead 6%......nailed on.

    I'm expecting a Tory bounce from Ukip - pensions stuff will surely appeal to older groups...?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    BobaFett said:

    Labour lead 6%......nailed on.

    I'm expecting a Tory bounce from Ukip - pensions stuff will surely appeal to older groups...?
    I'm not. The appeal of the pensions changes is to future pensioners nor those who are already pensioners.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    corporeal said:

    Mr Tebbit believes that The Bow Group have research stating that UKIP membership could overtake Tory membership within a decade. Do we know the current numbers?

    Colour me very very skeptical on that one.
    Ridiculous statement by Tebbit. The unknowns around both parties' membership are huge.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    I find it rather comical when politicians like Ed Balls lecture others about pension provision.

    He and Gordon Brown stole £125 billion from private sector pension funds and then lectured us about not saving enough for retirement. In the almost 4 years of the Coalition government my pension fund has recovered the 33% it lost during the Brown/Balls years 1997-2010 and added a further 30% so far. In short, over the past 4 years it has doubled in value.

    He has been on the public payroll for most of his adult life, has a gold plated pension which the rest of us are paying for and between him and his wife costs the taxpayer around £1/2 million a year in salary and expenses.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    welshowl said:

    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    So even following that logic the 95% have to be denied the freedom to access their own money and be forced to buy a State manipulated rip off annuity just in case 5% might lose out.??
    Are you saying the current annuity rates will remain forever ? Annuity rates have historically been better than savings rates !

    No one seems to have answered what happens to those people who have not purchased an annuity but live longer than they expect. Statistically, people aged 60 - 65 believe they will die sooner than they do partly because people assume , on average, they will die around the same time as their parents and grandparents but people are now living longer.

    The IFS has made a very good study of these changes. It basically concludes that until 2018, tax receipts will go up and, thereafter, the opposite will happen.

    I think the main purpose of these changes was:

    1. to increase the short term tax receipts, which will be considerable [ paid by people withdrawing their cash earlier than would have ]

    2. to make this into a very efficient tax avoidance vehicle for HRT payers who are mostly Tory voters.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    I find it rather comical when politicians like Ed Balls lecture others about pension provision.

    He and Gordon Brown stole £125 billion from private sector pension funds and then lectured us about not saving enough for retirement. In the almost 4 years of the Coalition government my pension fund has recovered the 33% it lost during the Brown/Balls years 1997-2010 and added a further 30% so far. In short, over the past 4 years it has doubled in value.

    He has been on the public payroll for most of his adult life, has a gold plated pension which the rest of us are paying for and between him and his wife costs the taxpayer around £1/2 million a year in salary and expenses.

    Amen to that. If I had 15 seconds of power and one thing only possible to do I'd put all politicians in defined contribution ( as opposed to benefit ) pension schemes. Welcome to the real world ladies and gentlemen!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am not expecting much change, mostly because polls are less influenced by daily events than some on here seem to believe. They are simply not that volatile. It usually takes a couple of weeks for any effect to become clear.
    philiph said:

    BobaFett said:

    Labour lead 6%......nailed on.

    I'm expecting a Tory bounce from Ukip - pensions stuff will surely appeal to older groups...?
    I'm not. The appeal of the pensions changes is to future pensioners nor those who are already pensioners.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    SeanT said:



    That would be a tragedy for our country, it almost makes me want Salmond to win his referendum, just to stop Labour. And I am a unionist.

    Labour won both vote-share and seat-totals in England in 1997 and 2001, they could do it again - though not in 2015, natch.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954
    surbiton said:

    The IFS has made a very good study of these changes. It basically concludes that until 2018, tax receipts will go up and, thereafter, the opposite will happen.

    I think the main purpose of these changes was:

    1. to increase the short term tax receipts, which will be considerable [ paid by people withdrawing their cash earlier than would have ]

    2. to make this into a very efficient tax avoidance vehicle for HRT payers who are mostly Tory voters.

    Rubbish.

    You think that Steve Webb the Lib Dem Pensions Minister is trying to "make this into a very efficient tax avoidance vehicle for HRT payers who are mostly Tory voters"?

    Why the hell would a Lib Dem do that?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Just caught up on the last thread and can't quite believe that Mike tried to compare Shapps's tweet with Byrne's "there's no money left". I've seen Byrne quoted on that nearly every month since he said it; if any anyone quotes Shapps next month I'll be surprised. FFS he said "they" like bingo and beer, not we have no money for anything. It's like comparing Miliband to a Labour PM...
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    SeanT said:

    BobaFett said:

    I said earlier this week that the Budget was a set-piece for the govt and Labour just had to ride it out. That's the game they are in.

    The time for a move on policy will come, but it is not now. They need clear air.

    But Labour - very clearly - do not have a clue. Not a Scooby. They just want to get elected, and then they will enact exactly the same plans as the Coalition, with some stupid Francois Hollandey bits added on, those policies which have done so well for France, the Sick Man of Europe.

    Doesn't that unnerve you, as an honest lefty? Really?

    It unnerves me. This is, in the round, the worst opposition since Hague in 01 or Foot in 83, both of whom very definitely deserved to lose - yet Balls and Miliband will probably win, thanks to electoral bias.

    That would be a tragedy for our country, it almost makes me want Salmond to win his referendum, just to stop Labour. And I am a unionist.
    I think that you are right that they will stick to Tory spending plans. But I also think you will like Ed, when you see him as PM. He is One of Us.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    SeanT said:

    BobaFett said:

    I said earlier this week that the Budget was a set-piece for the govt and Labour just had to ride it out. That's the game they are in.

    The time for a move on policy will come, but it is not now. They need clear air.

    But Labour - very clearly - do not have a clue. Not a Scooby. They just want to get elected, and then they will enact exactly the same plans as the Coalition, with some stupid Francois Hollandey bits added on, those policies which have done so well for France, the Sick Man of Europe.

    Doesn't that unnerve you, as an honest lefty? Really?

    It unnerves me. This is, in the round, the worst opposition since Hague in 01 or Foot in 83, both of whom very definitely deserved to lose - yet Balls and Miliband will probably win, thanks to electoral bias.

    That would be a tragedy for our country, it almost makes me want Salmond to win his referendum, just to stop Labour. And I am a unionist.
    I did a piece a few years ago where I compared Cameron's position to that of Heath trying to take on the unions. I think the comparison still stands. Heath U-turned in part because of his own beliefs but mainly because he knew he couldn't carry enough of the country with him; a fact eventually proven when the miners took the battle to him. Only when Labour too had failed and tripartism was comprehensively discredited could Thatcher enact real reform. Heath's failure was a necessary part of the process.

    So too it might be with Cameron and the coalition. If he doesn't win next year, then Miliband and Balls will be the new Wilson and Healey.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !

    I doubt it would be anything like 5% as most people are going to be very conservative, realising that they need to live off that money for the rest of their lives.

    You are only thinking about the potential negatives. What about the people who would be better off with a more competitive annuity which will hopefully be promoted by this greater freedom, or better off taking more cash, or only cash, or re-investing in some other way? There are a lot of upsides to giving people more choices. Make pensions work for the pensioners, not for the pensions industry.

    Everybody seems to agree that defined contribution pensions are ineffective now, and that there are a lot of disincentives to saving when the returns can be so dismal. All the government wants to do is let people say "no, that's not good enough, I've found something better." Very few people are going to think blowing their savings is a good idea.
    I think some times you let your prejudices take over.

    All studies so far has indicated that annuity rates will be worse for those still buying because the market will be smaller.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    welshowl said:

    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    So even following that logic the 95% have to be denied the freedom to access their own money and be forced to buy a State manipulated rip off annuity just in case 5% might lose out.??
    Are you saying the current annuity rates will remain forever ? Annuity rates have historically been better than savings rates !

    No one seems to have answered what happens to those people who have not purchased an annuity but live longer than they expect. Statistically, people aged 60 - 65 believe they will die sooner than they do partly because people assume , on average, they will die around the same time as their parents and grandparents but people are now living longer.

    The IFS has made a very good study of these changes. It basically concludes that until 2018, tax receipts will go up and, thereafter, the opposite will happen.

    I think the main purpose of these changes was:

    1. to increase the short term tax receipts, which will be considerable [ paid by people withdrawing their cash earlier than would have ]

    2. to make this into a very efficient tax avoidance vehicle for HRT payers who are mostly Tory voters.
    Once they run out of their private savings, they will learn to live on the state pension, in just the same way that people who chose not to save during their working lives will have to from retirement.

    You see, that's the thing about Tories. We believe that people should have the right to do what they want with their money.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Willard Foxton @WillardFoxton

    My Telegraph article from today, on HMRC's new ability to drain your bank account - updated with treasury comments: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/willardfoxton2/100012871/did-you-spot-this-budget-gives-hmrc-power-to-raid-your-bank-account-like-wonga/

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I will plan to spend my pension up front in my retirement. Between 65-80, I will travel, buy a decent motor and generally have a good time. I may give a fair bit to my son to pay off some of his student debts.

    After age 80 I will slow down, if I am still alive, and read books and watch the football, I shall live frugally for another decade or so in an old house, with old clothes and an old motor. If I am dead then I will not need money at all.

    It makes sense to spend the money in early active retirement, at least to me. You can't take it with you...
    surbiton said:

    welshowl said:

    surbiton said:

    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    They could not have withdrawn before retirement since most pension schemes would not allow that.

    The money only ended up in the scheme because they worked hard and contributed in the first place. Do you really think that people who have put away that money will reach their retirement, lose their income from working, and then decide against all common sense to blow their savings? It defies logic.

    The people Labour should be worrying about are those that haven't saved into a pension scheme, not those that have. They are the people who are going to need the most help.
    OK. Let's accept your point that the vast majority of pensioners [ 95% ? ] are responsible people, which they are.

    Now, if the other 5% follow Shapps' advice and start drinking more beer and play bingo and blow their little nest egg, they end up needing income support, which all of you do not like.

    These 5% need not have ended up needing income support !
    So even following that logic the 95% have to be denied the freedom to access their own money and be forced to buy a State manipulated rip off annuity just in case 5% might lose out.??
    Are you saying the current annuity rates will remain forever ? Annuity rates have historically been better than savings rates !

    No one seems to have answered what happens to those people who have not purchased an annuity but live longer than they expect. Statistically, people aged 60 - 65 believe they will die sooner than they do partly because people assume , on average, they will die around the same time as their parents and grandparents but people are now living longer.

    The IFS has made a very good study of these changes. It basically concludes that until 2018, tax receipts will go up and, thereafter, the opposite will happen.

    I think the main purpose of these changes was:

    1. to increase the short term tax receipts, which will be considerable [ paid by people withdrawing their cash earlier than would have ]

    2. to make this into a very efficient tax avoidance vehicle for HRT payers who are mostly Tory voters.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    SeanT said:



    That would be a tragedy for our country, it almost makes me want Salmond to win his referendum, just to stop Labour. And I am a unionist.

    Labour won both vote-share and seat-totals in England in 1997 and 2001, they could do it again - though not in 2015, natch.
    Of course they could. But don't forget that Tony Blair was an atypical Labour leader in his appeal to Middle England and his centrist policies.

    In my view, Labour will have to move into a position much like the German CDU, while the Tories have a more economically and socially liberal positioning.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited March 2014
    Yougov tastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    or not.

    Sun Politics‏@Sun_Politics·47 secs
    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains five points: Lab 39, Con 34, LD 10, UKIP 10
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    39/34

    One point pensions bounce.
    One point bingo bounce.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains five points: Lab 39, Con 34, LD 10, UKIP 10

  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Labours Lead - Shapps all jive.....Number 5
This discussion has been closed.