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The Planning Problem – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited December 17 in General
imageThe Planning Problem – politicalbetting.com

Simple problem, difficult answer

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    So Labour wont be building houses then
  • The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc
  • On topic, thanks Andy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    On Topic - Chiswick was built like this. Transport and infrastructure first. Plots sold to developers in smallish batches - half a street, quite often.

    FPT
    Foxy said:

    s

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    The initial responses to the actual new Jag are out, and ...my goodness, it's impressive. Whether it will sell is debatable and the antiwokists will push their own heads up their arses instead of saying something nice about it, but it's the most out-there debut since the Cybertruck, and it's a ton better looking.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzGlTULmheI

    The comments under the video aren't good though...
    When are they ever?
    Seldom.

    But if they are saying it looks like a VW Beetle that’s been squashed by a giant’s foot and given slightly bigger wheels, they’re not actually wrong.

    It looks absolutely revolting. Surely they could at least have kept that distinctive Jaguar bodywork with its lovely clean lines and put an electric motor in it?
    One of the advantages of an electric power train is that you don’t need a massive engine bay. The battery is flat slab that can under the floor. The motors are tiny compared with the equivalent power ICE and gearbox.

    So that huge, blocky front is nothing to do with function.
    Looks like it would be tricky pulling out at junctions too. Neither do I like the flattened beetle browed look. The windows are too small.
    It’s Retro Futurism (1951) - it’s the DeKhotinsky Sixteen Special (Roadster) from The Vortex Blaster.

    In the Gemsbeck Continuum, in 1980 something, William Gibson pointed out that this was a vision of the future that had “All the sinister fruitiness of Hitler Youth propaganda”. 100% white, blond people….

  • The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    That would very much depend on the quality of alternative schools.
  • Foxy said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    Do they require shaved parmesan? I am sure that I have some surplus.
    Plenty of Prosecco is needed as well.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    edited December 3

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    God morning everyone, and thank-you for the header Andy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    That would very much depend on the quality of alternative schools.
    At my daughter’s school, we have quite a few bursaries. The total is equivalent to 25% paying nothing. But it’s spread out some paying 50%, some 25%, some zero.

    Deep means tested…

    One of my daughter’s friends has a chronic anxiety issue - the one that’s been popping up in the news. Some say an effect of lockdown. Barely able to leave her room - it’s a diagnosed medical issue.

    There is little or no help in the state system. So her parents are paying a small fraction of the full fees to go private. So that she will actually get an education - the school support for this is excellent. They are quite poor and can’t afford that and the huge bills for private psychiatry. But do it anyway.

    The school has announced that it is holding down the prices for those on deep subsidies (more than 50%) by reducing freebies for the local state schools. So they will continue to get use of the swimming pool. But not have 4 members of staff from the school supervising and teaching for free….
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Thanks Andy. We're yet to see, in totality, Labour's thinking on this issue, but it doesn't sound like they have been as clear-headed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112

    Foxy said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    Do they require shaved parmesan? I am sure that I have some surplus.
    Plenty of Prosecco is needed as well.
    I shall ask Mrs Foxy, but she is unlikely to oblige. Christmas is thirsty work for middle class women of a certain age.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    "Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school?"

    I don't know when you went to school, but I think that experience of the state school system have always differed wildly. I went to a state primary for a while, which was an unremarkable school, and then a middle school; again unremarkable, but a little rougher. Neither school was brilliant; neither terrible.

    My oft-told story: I knew two men who grew up in a mining town in northeastern Derbyshire in the mid to late 70s. Both were not the most academic kids, and the teachers made it clear that it was pointless teaching them, as they would end up in the mines. Both did, and both suffered when the mines closed, going on the long-term 'sick'.

    The state school system abandoned these kids, now men. So the experience of schooling was very different from mine, just a few years later, in a different area.

    (These anecdotes were independently told to me.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420
    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    Indeed. Housebuilding collapsed in the late ‘70s with local authorities stopping building houses.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Sean_F said:

    An excellent article.

    The Process State is a system of outdoor relief for the upper middle classes.

    Indoor relief for the aspiring NU10Kers
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,125
    edited December 3
    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    There was a difference between postwar rehousing, mostly state driven, which could get around the planning process or just bulldozer through it with devices such as new towns and associated slum clearance and the private sector development we want today, which will mostly have to happen on greenfield land, whatever politicians like to pretend.

    Another question is why it wasn't such an issue in the 70s and 80s. I think it didn't matter too much when this country's population was broadly stable or slightly increasing, at least once the postwar housing shortage had been addressed. But when the population started soaring with uncontrolled immigration under Blair, we suddenly needed hundreds of thousands of new houses a year just to stand still.

    Yet the Blair government, partly because of simple ignorance of economics, and partly because of their misreading of the experience of the housing bust of the early 90s, thought that high house prices were a Good Thing, rather than a sign of a wildly dysfunctional market in the country's largest most important asset class. And the Conservatives, captured by the NIMBY lobby, totally failed to address it.

    So, we are where we are.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Andy's excellent article shows what nonsense Labour were talking during the election campaign about sweeping away planning restrictions. We live on a small, densely populated island with a propensity to under invest in infrastructure. These limitations form the basis of our planning systems. Self build is not an option if the local sewage plant or the local primary school is already at capacity.

    There are the odd occasions where we can sweep some of this away. New Towns are an obvious example as they have the advantage of starting with a clean(ish) slate and the various developments can be integrated. But generally we are adding to the existing systems and that means we all have a vested interest in ensuring that what is proposed is compatible with that.

    In Scotland any large scale development tends to come with conditions which might be a new school or the money for one (in Dundee there are at least 2 examples of the local authority taking that money and not providing the school). I think society has the right to demand this too. Planning gain is all too real and it is right that the cost for society of the new development is funded out of it, at least to some degree. Of course the more you do this the more expensive the new housing becomes and we are once again back to the start of the circle.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    Initially there was a presumption that permission would be granted. That was progressively watered down to permission will be granted if it is on accordance with the local plan unless there are material considerations otherwise.

    The only material consideration of any consequience is the one as to how much you have paid those you need to bribe. In Liverpool about 10 years ago that was building a new office for the Labour Party as part of the deal. I know the whistle blower on that one. And the office was built.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,358
    Cracking header. Very informative and interesting thank you.
    One genuine brexit benefit I can see is getting out of the EU habitats Directive. I remember when I worked at defra we had to advise a minister that it would be illegal to expand a harbour because of some not all that rare species of seaweed found... he was furious and it was ridiculous frankly.

    Personally I'd like to see the public sector deciding what buildings and infrastructure we want in our towns, not leaving it to private developers. It would need a significant skilling up/investment in capacity but
    I feel that gets around some of the problems highlighted.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    Indeed. Housebuilding collapsed in the late ‘70s with local authorities stopping building houses.
    The usual narrative on house building is distorted by ignoring the much higher rate of demolitions we used to have.

    image

    https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1803850784536236444
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I'm not sure what's new here, or a particular problem. These already exist for families who need them, and since the Suzi Leather (sp?) linked reforms of the noughties, there has been a major expansion in scholarships and support and bursaries and so on.

    Before *that* it was Assisted Places.

    Before *that* when I was at my independent day school in the 1980s there were bursaries for a small number of pupils.

    Here is the current scheme for my former school. As far as I can see they say 10% of places can receive means-tested bursaries. It covers up to 100% of tuition fees:
    https://nottinghamhigh.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/document/Bursary-Scheme-FAQ-23-24-rjb.pdf
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    edited December 3

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
    I just despise the idea of opportunity being bought at a discounted price (i.e. tax free). I find the idea of state selection to grammar schools almost as appalling, but at least in that system there is some merit in passing an exam aged eleven.

    Perhaps wealthy thick kids being promoted at the expense of smart poor ones is why we find that governance and economic activity has been so ineffective over the last couple of decades.

    Take the rebranding of Jaguar, I bet the thick twats who thought this was marketing genius were all indulged in a (probably low rent) private education.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    edited December 3
    rkrkrk said:

    Cracking header. Very informative and interesting thank you.
    One genuine brexit benefit I can see is getting out of the EU habitats Directive. I remember when I worked at defra we had to advise a minister that it would be illegal to expand a harbour because of some not all that rare species of seaweed found... he was furious and it was ridiculous frankly.

    Personally I'd like to see the public sector deciding what buildings and infrastructure we want in our towns, not leaving it to private developers. It would need a significant skilling up/investment in capacity but
    I feel that gets around some of the problems highlighted.

    Perhaps the difference is that in France, say, the harbour would have been expanded anyway. Seaweed vs The Good Of The State - sorry, seaweed, you’re out of luck.

    A problem is the lack of proportionality. The Bat Tunnel was built because of a requirement that not one bat die. We don’t build railways on the basis of “not one human can die”. Sorry Batfink - your wings will need to do the work.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    Excellent piece.

    The problem is too many people who are more interested in being prissy about due process, rather than outcomes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    edited December 3
    Fishing said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    There was a difference between postwar rehousing, mostly state driven, which could get around the planning process or just bulldozer through it with devices such as new towns and associated slum clearance and the private sector development we want today, which will mostly have to happen on greenfield land, whatever politicians like to pretend.

    Another question is why it wasn't such an issue in the 70s and 80s. I think it didn't matter too much when this country's population was broadly stable or slightly increasing, at least once the postwar housing shortage had been addressed. But when the population started soaring with uncontrolled immigration under Blair, we suddenly needed hundreds of thousands of new houses a year just to stand still.

    Yet the Blair government, partly because of simple ignorance of economics, and partly because of their misreading of the experience of the housing bust of the early 90s, thought that high house prices were a Good Thing, rather than a sign of a wildly dysfunctional market in the country's largest most important asset class. And the Conservatives, captured by the NIMBY lobby, totally failed to address it.

    So, we are where we are.
    The Blair government’s mistake was on the demand side rather than the supply side. They shouldn’t have allowed in so many people and they shouldn’t have tightened loan-to-value ratios to avoid the boom in crazy mortgage lending.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    So Labour wont be building houses then

    Of the 1.5 Million they promised to build most of them were already planned prior to them coming to power.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
    A lot of it is down to lack of trust in professionals (we see this in teaching, medicine etc). Pretty much every profession except lawyers. You’re right not to trust lawyers.

    But I’m getting distracted. You need to empower planning officials to make decisions that are sensible. If you go down the route of restricting their judgement you create a rules based environment rather than a principles based approach
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    Indeed. Housebuilding collapsed in the late ‘70s with local authorities stopping building houses.
    The usual narrative on house building is distorted by ignoring the much higher rate of demolitions we used to have.

    image

    https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1803850784536236444
    Fair enough. But couldn't you equally demonstrate an unfulfilled demand requirement by the exponential rise in people living in Halfords tents?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    edited December 3
    Good morning, everyone.

    Got to confess, I'm bad at looking for work. Despite more experience it's harder now than it was in 2019.

    Anyway, I chanced upon a job ad that seemed interesting. Go to apply. Have to sign up for yet another new site, but I need work so fine.

    The signing up process is pretty damn simple. Name, e-mail, password, type of work sought etc.

    And it fails. Why?

    "Sorry, we couldn't verify that you're human. Please try again later."

    I'm more amused than pissed off by this. But it does rather sum up how the year has gone.

    Edited extra bit: for those wondering, there was no captcha or similar check to do.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,358
    Labour have a mandate to build. It was probably the clearest policy promise jn their manifesto. They have to deliver.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    Indeed. Housebuilding collapsed in the late ‘70s with local authorities stopping building houses.
    The usual narrative on house building is distorted by ignoring the much higher rate of demolitions we used to have.

    image

    https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1803850784536236444
    Not wanting to poke the estimable Mr Conway in the eye, but that chart has its own problems.

    For a start how many of his "net dwellings" are Permitted Development Conversions from Offices, which are not known for being to adequate standards, and have been extensive since 2013?

    And why do his stats start in 1970 - where the numbers had already significantly rolled off (graph at link - not using my quota for this) - and we were into high inflation and the oil crisis? And - yes - extensive "slum clearance" in that period, which was sometimes "we want a big project and this is in the way".

    https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/House_building_since_1920s_NOV_17.png

    This other graph from him in that thread is very interesting, showing that the Labour election target was lower than either the Tories or the Lib Dems.

    Despite everything that gets complained about, we have the adults in the Government.
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQiQaYUW4AArBP_?format=jpg&name=900x900
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,033
    Fishing said:

    This thread raises a very important issue so thanks.

    You don't mention international experience - there are plenty of democracies with much better records on housebuilding than ours. Well, virtually all of them actually, but you could have started with France or Texas.

    They mostly do this by allowing much more self-build - if you strip out self-built houses, most European countries would build about as many houses, or fewer, per head as we do. They account for 80% of new houses in Austria, and 60% in France and Germany. And it's noticeable that the one area of the UK that does have significant self-build, Northern Ireland, is the one where there is no significant housing shortage.

    Facilitating that through the planning system by, say, designating significant areas of land in each county as available for self-build, would go a long way to solving our housing crisis and would also break the oligopoly of our big builders, that build crap and charge a fortune for it.

    Self-build is not a panacea - it doesn't really work for blocks of flats in cities, and a whole new industry would need to come into being. And governments of all parties have been captured by the building industry, so it would face huge political opposition. But if we're serious about building the 8 million new houses we need to have as many per head as France, that's where we should start.

    Thanks. It's the self-build direction that my suggested LDO-method is intended to facilitate, along with smaller developers.
    Leaping from one system entirely to another (whilst under our own system of common law/precedent and so on) is a big ask; I wanted to find a way to get that sort of thing going under the ruleset we have in existence.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,932

    Good morning, everyone.

    Got to confess, I'm bad at looking for work. Despite more experience it's harder now than it was in 2019.

    Anyway, I chanced upon a job ad that seemed interesting. Go to apply. Have to sign up for yet another new site, but I need work so fine.

    The signing up process is pretty damn simple. Name, e-mail, password, type of work sought etc.

    And it fails. Why?

    "Sorry, we couldn't verify that you're human. Please try again later."

    I'm more amused than pissed off by this. But it does rather sum up how the year has gone.

    Edited extra bit: for those wondering, there was no captcha or similar check to do.

    Sorry to hear that. Good luck going forward @Morris_Dancer
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213
    edited December 3
    Good morning.

    I’m a fan of Masterchef so have been binge watching the most recent professionals series this week before Gregggg gets exposed for having done something beyond the pale and is fully cancelled.

    On topic, very interesting header. If that doesn’t work, then one intriguing option is out there, and it’s something where we could learn from the Russians. Maybe the problem is we don’t have enough land. Perhaps we should consider some targeted annexation.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    Do they require shaved parmesan? I am sure that I have some surplus.
    Plenty of Prosecco is needed as well.
    I shall ask Mrs Foxy, but she is unlikely to oblige. Christmas is thirsty work for middle class women of a certain age.
    Plus, they need to keep the empties handy - to whack Gregg Wallace around the head with...
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,033

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
    A lot of it is down to lack of trust in professionals (we see this in teaching, medicine etc). Pretty much every profession except lawyers. You’re right not to trust lawyers.

    But I’m getting distracted. You need to empower planning officials to make decisions that are sensible. If you go down the route of restricting their judgement you create a rules based environment rather than a principles based approach
    ^^^ This to a great extent, but I can also understand the rules-based elements that have gradually and inexorably accrued: people also want consistency ("Why was xxx approved and my one rejected?" "Why was that one rejected and this one approved?").

    And we end up seeing that precedent build up and up and up, for understandable and decent reasons, causing more and more rules and boxes to tick to ensure consistency for understandable reasons and we end up skewing further and further away from trusting people and instead stuck with process, rules, and precedent to ever increasing depths.

    This is why I think we not only need an audit and architecture of the processes now, we'll need the exercise carried out regularly again in future. This can pick out what's relevant and needed now rather than then and ensure it''s kept up to date.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    TimS said:

    Good morning.

    I’m a fan of Masterchef so have been binge watching the most recent professionals series this week before Gregggg gets exposed for having done something beyond the pale and is fully cancelled.

    On topic, very interesting header. If that doesn’t work, then one intriguing option is out there, and it’s something where we could learn from the Russians. Maybe the problem is we don’t have enough land. Perhaps we should consider some targeted annexation.

    That’s difficult and complicated too
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
    I just despise the idea of opportunity being bought at a discounted price (i.e. tax free). I find the idea of state selection to grammar schools almost as appalling, but at least in that system there is some merit in passing an exam aged eleven.

    Perhaps wealthy thick kids being promoted at the expense of smart poor ones is why we find that governance and economic activity has been so ineffective over the last couple of decades.

    Take the rebranding of Jaguar, I bet the thick twats who thought this was marketing genius were all indulged in a (probably low rent) private education.
    That will be Gerry McGovern -Chief Creative Officer of JLR who was educated at state schools.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
    I've made a habit of leaving some tinned food outside ESMS on my into work. Got to be careful though, my last 12-pack of tomato soup got crushed by a pavement parking Volvo XC90.
  • The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that schⁿool.
    That would very much depend on the quality of alternative schools.
    Maybe. I dont know enough about the merits of private education , I just think if you really do need to use the school food banks to feed the kids, then it's not a great life for the kids.
    Maybe it's worth it in the long run.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
    A lot of it is down to lack of trust in professionals (we see this in teaching, medicine etc). Pretty much every profession except lawyers. You’re right not to trust lawyers.

    But I’m getting distracted. You need to empower planning officials to make decisions that are sensible. If you go down the route of restricting their judgement you create a rules based environment rather than a principles based approach
    Discretion is now a dirty word. In the Process State, discretion, judgement and morality are superseded by Process.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that schⁿool.
    That would very much depend on the quality of alternative schools.
    Maybe. I dont know enough about the merits of private education , I just think if you really do need to use the school food banks to feed the kids, then it's not a great life for the kids.
    Maybe it's worth it in the long run.

    I was under the impression that most food banks restricted access to those with genuine needs as shown by a 'ticket' from social services/DWP/citizen's advice.

    You can't just rock up and say i need some food?

    Maybe I am wrong or out of date?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,125

    And thanks all for all the kind words. I was bracing myself for pushback, because I figured I'd be pleasing no-one and possibly annoying everyone by saying "It really is complicated and this is why"

    That makes you informed and a realist.

    Most things in life are.
    Certainly once politicians, lawyers and other bottom-feeders get their self-interested oars in ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    TimS said:

    Good morning.

    I’m a fan of Masterchef so have been binge watching the most recent professionals series this week before Gregggg gets exposed for having done something beyond the pale and is fully cancelled.

    On topic, very interesting header. If that doesn’t work, then one intriguing option is out there, and it’s something where we could learn from the Russians. Maybe the problem is we don’t have enough land. Perhaps we should consider some targeted annexation.

    That’s difficult and complicated too
    Are we now so far removed from days of Empire there is no-one we can beat up and steal land from?

    What a sorry state of affairs...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Mr. kjh, cheers.

    Thankfully, I live like a monk so my outgoings are minimal and I save way more than I spend so I'm not in dire straits or anything. It's just a bit shit.

    On a related note, I'm thinking of doing more with my blog regarding F1, maybe adding audio content too.

    Speaking of which, almost half of my winning tips this year have come in the last five races. Super-shit start, but recently things have been pretty good.

    Mr. Mark, it's true, I'm the earliest convincing AI out there. Even paid some skinny guy to pretend to be me at the Ilkley gathering.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352

    Good morning, everyone.

    Got to confess, I'm bad at looking for work. Despite more experience it's harder now than it was in 2019.

    Anyway, I chanced upon a job ad that seemed interesting. Go to apply. Have to sign up for yet another new site, but I need work so fine.

    The signing up process is pretty damn simple. Name, e-mail, password, type of work sought etc.

    And it fails. Why?

    "Sorry, we couldn't verify that you're human. Please try again later."

    I'm more amused than pissed off by this. But it does rather sum up how the year has gone.

    Edited extra bit: for those wondering, there was no captcha or similar check to do.

    As The Killers asked: "Are we human? Or are we Dancer?"

    Now we know...
    Very artfully drawn together reply, I wish I had more than one 'like' to give.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    I will comment later - but the Danish / Dutch approach is exactly what we should be aiming for.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Good morning, everyone.

    Got to confess, I'm bad at looking for work. Despite more experience it's harder now than it was in 2019.

    Anyway, I chanced upon a job ad that seemed interesting. Go to apply. Have to sign up for yet another new site, but I need work so fine.

    The signing up process is pretty damn simple. Name, e-mail, password, type of work sought etc.

    And it fails. Why?

    "Sorry, we couldn't verify that you're human. Please try again later."

    I'm more amused than pissed off by this. But it does rather sum up how the year has gone.

    Edited extra bit: for those wondering, there was no captcha or similar check to do.

    Recruitment is a profession I regard as the lowest of the low.

    Recruiters too are awful people.

    I would hate to be job hunting.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    Mr. kjh, cheers.

    Thankfully, I live like a monk so my outgoings are minimal and I save way more than I spend so I'm not in dire straits or anything. It's just a bit shit.

    On a related note, I'm thinking of doing more with my blog regarding F1, maybe adding audio content too.

    Speaking of which, almost half of my winning tips this year have come in the last five races. Super-shit start, but recently things have been pretty good.

    Mr. Mark, it's true, I'm the earliest convincing AI out there. Even paid some skinny guy to pretend to be me at the Ilkley gathering.

    Incidentally, I've been watching a few vids by this guy. He pours into the data in F1, and whilst he can get a little silly (what happens if F1 points were awarded by the Mario Kart system), I've learnt a lot about F1's history.

    Well worth a watch if you're interested in F1.

    https://www.youtube.com/@MrVsGarage
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 92

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
    A lot of it is down to lack of trust in professionals (we see this in teaching, medicine etc). Pretty much every profession except lawyers. You’re right not to trust lawyers.

    But I’m getting distracted. You need to empower planning officials to make decisions that are sensible. If you go down the route of restricting their judgement you create a rules based environment rather than a principles based approach
    Discretion is now a dirty word. In the Process State, discretion, judgement and morality are superseded by Process.
    Are you surprised given the sort of people we have in charge? Who'd want to trust the judgment of a Paula Vennells, for instance?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,495
    This highlights the poor pay of public servants , life is tough in the civil service
    Top Nicola Sturgeon civil servant who destroyed covid WhatsApp messages retired on £1.4m pension

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/top-nicola-sturgeon-civil-servant-34229739
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    The Comprehensive I went to did not work well for the vast majority of the children attending. And I suspect that was not too long after you. It was definitely a 'lowest common denominator' school and one where aspiration was actively frowned upon unless you were one of the lucky very few.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    AnthonyT said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
    A lot of it is down to lack of trust in professionals (we see this in teaching, medicine etc). Pretty much every profession except lawyers. You’re right not to trust lawyers.

    But I’m getting distracted. You need to empower planning officials to make decisions that are sensible. If you go down the route of restricting their judgement you create a rules based environment rather than a principles based approach
    Discretion is now a dirty word. In the Process State, discretion, judgement and morality are superseded by Process.
    Are you surprised given the sort of people we have in charge? Who'd want to trust the judgment of a Paula Vennells, for instance?
    An amoral system attracts amoral people and repels the moral.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    malcolmg said:

    This highlights the poor pay of public servants , life is tough in the civil service
    Top Nicola Sturgeon civil servant who destroyed covid WhatsApp messages retired on £1.4m pension

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/top-nicola-sturgeon-civil-servant-34229739

    They work so hard for so little.

    I am so happy they will move to 4 days a week for no loss of pay. It is what they deserve for their hard work and diligence.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    boulay said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
    I just despise the idea of opportunity being bought at a discounted price (i.e. tax free). I find the idea of state selection to grammar schools almost as appalling, but at least in that system there is some merit in passing an exam aged eleven.

    Perhaps wealthy thick kids being promoted at the expense of smart poor ones is why we find that governance and economic activity has been so ineffective over the last couple of decades.

    Take the rebranding of Jaguar, I bet the thick twats who thought this was marketing genius were all indulged in a (probably low rent) private education.
    That will be Gerry McGovern -Chief Creative Officer of JLR who was educated at state schools.

    You've blown my argument out of the water.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    The Comprehensive I went to did not work well for the vast majority of the children attending. And I suspect that was not too long after you. It was definitely a 'lowest common denominator' school and one where aspiration was actively frowned upon unless you were one of the lucky very few.
    The Comprehensive I went to did work well for most kids, I left in 1982, but I suspect that is more to the fact of where it was rather than comprehensives working.

    I was fortunate that, although I was in a working class council house estate, I was in the catchment area for a school that was in a rather affluent area.

    I suspect had I been in an inner city comp a few miles down the road it would have been a different story.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    edited December 3

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that schⁿool.
    That would very much depend on the quality of alternative schools.
    Maybe. I dont know enough about the merits of private education , I just think if you really do need to use the school food banks to feed the kids, then it's not a great life for the kids.
    Maybe it's worth it in the long run.

    I was under the impression that most food banks restricted access to those with genuine needs as shown by a 'ticket' from social services/DWP/citizen's advice.

    You can't just rock up and say i need some food?

    Maybe I am wrong or out of date?
    No. The referal from Social Services is just one of a number of ways people access food banks. Certainly in the ones in our area you can just walk in off the street. Which is no bad thing as a rule. Many people can be in a dire financial state without necessarily being on the radar of the State. Indeed it is often because the State can't/won't help them that they end up needing food banks.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    Thanks for an illuminating article. The thought of having a job involving being caught up in this amazing mixture of process, verbiage, unjust enrichment, special pleading, bad design and hostility sends my brain to sleep.

    Two comments. About the compexifying process state and law. Not all that long ago a lot of provincial, small town rural solicitors were generalists who covered a lot of the ground for clients. Now they narrowly specialise. You might do commercial leases but you couldn't even start thinking about a divorce settlement, drunk driver or alcohol licensing. This is a loss of an interesting group of people in small town and rural life, and it is quite recent. The ones I knew are retired or, mostly, dead.

    Secondly, by far the single most effective step WRT planning is to stop artificially expanding the population of the state by massive numbers every year. The fact that the government refuses even to suggest a target for artificial population growth indicates it has no confidence in its powers.
  • I see the Daily Mail are now fully on the cancel people train.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554

    boulay said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
    I just despise the idea of opportunity being bought at a discounted price (i.e. tax free). I find the idea of state selection to grammar schools almost as appalling, but at least in that system there is some merit in passing an exam aged eleven.

    Perhaps wealthy thick kids being promoted at the expense of smart poor ones is why we find that governance and economic activity has been so ineffective over the last couple of decades.

    Take the rebranding of Jaguar, I bet the thick twats who thought this was marketing genius were all indulged in a (probably low rent) private education.
    That will be Gerry McGovern -Chief Creative Officer of JLR who was educated at state schools.

    You've blown my argument out of the water.
    Don’t worry, there will be plenty of twatty things done by Private Schhol Kids.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    edited December 3

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    The Comprehensive I went to did not work well for the vast majority of the children attending. And I suspect that was not too long after you. It was definitely a 'lowest common denominator' school and one where aspiration was actively frowned upon unless you were one of the lucky very few.
    Mine was fantastic. A former Secondary Modern in an affluent area of South Birmingham ( just over the Worcestershire border). In my year and the year above me they produced a Vice President of Reckitt Benkeiser, a CFO of Orange/ EE, the High Commissioner to Chile and of course the keyboard player from Duran Duran. As well as lots of other high flyers in their field. It really was fantastic and I can compare it with my later experience at a Grammar School. Sadly my old compressive is a nothing to write home about academy today. The political will for these places to thrive is no longer a priority.
  • Good article.

    What Andy is proposing is something I have gone on about for a long time on here - the Dutch system. Councils buy the land, put in all the services and then sell the plots to individuals for them to either self build or get a builder to do it for them. It undercuts the developers, stops land banking and prevents land speculation. Developers can still buy a tranch of plots but they will then be insentivised to build on them ASAP as they will already have paid out for the prepared land and can't hold out to force the council to give planning permission for land outside the scheme.

    I'm pretty sure that's how it works in Germany too, or something like that. I'm always struck when I'm over there how development doesn't really seem to be the issue that it is here. The local authority buys up the land, puts in services, and sells plots to developers or individuals. And it's generally welcomed by the existing inhabitants because it means there will be more facilities for them.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945

    Mr. kjh, cheers.

    Thankfully, I live like a monk so my outgoings are minimal and I save way more than I spend so I'm not in dire straits or anything. It's just a bit shit.

    On a related note, I'm thinking of doing more with my blog regarding F1, maybe adding audio content too.

    Speaking of which, almost half of my winning tips this year have come in the last five races. Super-shit start, but recently things have been pretty good.

    Mr. Mark, it's true, I'm the earliest convincing AI out there. Even paid some skinny guy to pretend to be me at the Ilkley gathering.

    Incidentally, I've been watching a few vids by this guy. He pours into the data in F1, and whilst he can get a little silly (what happens if F1 points were awarded by the Mario Kart system), I've learnt a lot about F1's history.

    Well worth a watch if you're interested in F1.

    https://www.youtube.com/@MrVsGarage
    Mr. Jessop, cheers for the recommendation. I'll check it out in an hour or so, when I've gone through some work-stuff. We'll see how things go, but I might also put the audio stuff (if I do it) on YouTube.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Anything that gets infrastructure put in place earlier before the full development is completed is a good idea.

    The idea of Local and Neighbourhood Plans was that elected local councils set out where development could go and provided development occurred there planning cttees would then be required to approve it. Which ensured local input while reducing NIMBYISM
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,944
    edited December 3

    I see the Daily Mail are now fully on the cancel people train.

    I've cancelled the Daily Mail...

    :smile:

    ..and Sky News with their Middle Class women of a certain age, or should I say "hubble bubble toil and trouble" sisters.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    edited December 3

    Mr. kjh, cheers.

    Thankfully, I live like a monk so my outgoings are minimal and I save way more than I spend so I'm not in dire straits or anything. It's just a bit shit.

    On a related note, I'm thinking of doing more with my blog regarding F1, maybe adding audio content too.

    Speaking of which, almost half of my winning tips this year have come in the last five races. Super-shit start, but recently things have been pretty good.

    Mr. Mark, it's true, I'm the earliest convincing AI out there. Even paid some skinny guy to pretend to be me at the Ilkley gathering.

    Incidentally, I've been watching a few vids by this guy. He pours into the data in F1, and whilst he can get a little silly (what happens if F1 points were awarded by the Mario Kart system), I've learnt a lot about F1's history.

    Well worth a watch if you're interested in F1.

    https://www.youtube.com/@MrVsGarage
    Mr. Jessop, cheers for the recommendation. I'll check it out in an hour or so, when I've gone through some work-stuff. We'll see how things go, but I might also put the audio stuff (if I do it) on YouTube.
    Blimey Morris, you've embedded an earlier post on which you are commenting upon. A genuine "well done", that removes an awful lot of confusion.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    She wasn't particularly, Thatcher sent her son to Harrow for example, she just followed Heath's mandate to allow local authorities to decide on ending selection in their area and mainly Labour councils often did.

    By the end of the Thatcher and Major years in 1997 more pupils were in grammar schools than there had been in 1979
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Good article.

    What Andy is proposing is something I have gone on about for a long time on here - the Dutch system. Councils buy the land, put in all the services and then sell the plots to individuals for them to either self build or get a builder to do it for them. It undercuts the developers, stops land banking and prevents land speculation. Developers can still buy a tranch of plots but they will then be insentivised to build on them ASAP as they will already have paid out for the prepared land and can't hold out to force the council to give planning permission for land outside the scheme.

    I'm pretty sure that's how it works in Germany too, or something like that. I'm always struck when I'm over there how development doesn't really seem to be the issue that it is here. The local authority buys up the land, puts in services, and sells plots to developers or individuals. And it's generally welcomed by the existing inhabitants because it means there will be more facilities for them.
    The old style


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    MattW said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    Indeed. Housebuilding collapsed in the late ‘70s with local authorities stopping building houses.
    The usual narrative on house building is distorted by ignoring the much higher rate of demolitions we used to have.

    image

    https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1803850784536236444
    Not wanting to poke the estimable Mr Conway in the eye, but that chart has its own problems.

    For a start how many of his "net dwellings" are Permitted Development Conversions from Offices, which are not known for being to adequate standards, and have been extensive since 2013?

    And why do his stats start in 1970 - where the numbers had already significantly rolled off (graph at link - not using my quota for this) - and we were into high inflation and the oil crisis? And - yes - extensive "slum clearance" in that period, which was sometimes "we want a big project and this is in the way".

    https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/House_building_since_1920s_NOV_17.png

    This other graph from him in that thread is very interesting, showing that the Labour election target was lower than either the Tories or the Lib Dems.

    Despite everything that gets complained about, we have the adults in the Government.
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQiQaYUW4AArBP_?format=jpg&name=900x900
    Labour's planning target was mandated though
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    HYUFD said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    She wasn't particularly, Thatcher sent her son to Harrow for example, she just followed Heath's mandate to allow local authorities to decide on ending selection in their area and mainly Labour councils often did.

    By the end of the Thatcher and Major years in 1997 more pupils were in grammar schools than there had been in 1979
    My tongue was firmly in my cheek HY, but if you pick the date of 1970 rather than 1979 which sees the arrival of the Heath government which saw Thatcher as Education Secretary I doubt if your Grammar school attendance figure remains pertinent.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    edited December 3
    On the pink Jaguar concept car.

    It seems to me to be part Lady Penelope from Thunderbirds inspired (aka FAB1), and part Tesla Cybertruck inspired.

    As with most things, for the Cybertruck Elon Musk presents with borderline psychopathic tendencies. "F*ck you and your laws, your society and your welfare, I'm going to do what I want."

    We don't need to worry about the Cybertruck. That's such a dangerous killing machine that it is never coming to Europe in quantity - even the current loboto-Conservatives aren't stupid enough to try that one on.

    The problem I have with the Jag is that (like the Cybertruck) it's a design for Micropenis Man - someone inadequate who feels he needs a huge, expensive automobile to prove his manhood to himself, whilst not giving a damn about others. In the scheme of reality, the best description I can come up with for it is "unnecessary".

    Fab 1 vs Jaguar Concept (my photo quota - took a bit of tweaking):

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 3

    HYUFD said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    I know! Why don't we fund state education like they did when I went to school? That way everyone gets a top class education and people don't feel obliged to send their children to dreary Saint Whoever's College for social climbers. Back when I was at school we had a dynamic Education Minister called Margaret Thatcher who was desperate to see comprehensive schools work, and work well.

    If you are inclined towards buying the networking opportunities that an expensive education offers, sell the car, cancel Netflix and send the offspring to Malvern, Marlborough or Monmouth.
    She wasn't particularly, Thatcher sent her son to Harrow for example, she just followed Heath's mandate to allow local authorities to decide on ending selection in their area and mainly Labour councils often did.

    By the end of the Thatcher and Major years in 1997 more pupils were in grammar schools than there had been in 1979
    My tongue was firmly in my cheek HY, but if you pick the date of 1970 rather than 1979 which sees the arrival of the Heath government which saw Thatcher as Education Secretary I doubt if your Grammar school attendance figure remains pertinent.
    Again mainly because Heath told Thatcher not to block mainly Labour authorities ending selection. There was also the Wilson and Callaghan government from 1974-79.

    Where grammar schools remain eg Kent and Lincolnshire and Bucks and Bromley and Trafford and Rugby and Ripon and Poole it was almost entirely in areas and local authorities which were then Tory run
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,033
    Fishing said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    ...
    Another question is why it wasn't such an issue in the 70s and 80s. I think it didn't matter too much when this country's population was broadly stable or slightly increasing, at least once the postwar housing shortage had been addressed. But when the population started soaring with uncontrolled immigration under Blair, we suddenly needed hundreds of thousands of new houses a year just to stand still.


    One element is that more and more restrictions have been placed on the flexibility of LAs and a second is reduced funding. It was indeed much easier in the past for LAs to self-issue planning permissions. These days, every single hoop has to be jumped through and more - to demonstrate you're not getting an unfair benefit.

    Example: in my ward, a landowner wants to work with the LA on a sizeable plot, intended to provide attractive homes, a big chunk of affordable homes, some self-build plots, and integrate seamlessly with the local infrastructure. It's taken years and is still going through early stages, because we have no short-cuts and much less funding than the big developers.

    Good article.

    What Andy is proposing is something I have gone on about for a long time on here - the Dutch system. Councils buy the land, put in all the services and then sell the plots to individuals for them to either self build or get a builder to do it for them. It undercuts the developers, stops land banking and prevents land speculation. Developers can still buy a tranch of plots but they will then be insentivised to build on them ASAP as they will already have paid out for the prepared land and can't hold out to force the council to give planning permission for land outside the scheme.

    There are other huge benefits to this way, many of which won't be readily apparent at a glance.

    Firstly: the taking-the-piss element goes away (largely). In my examples of externalities, one stands out: the open-cast mine example. That's because that is the only one I haven't personally encountered on planning in my LA.

    Secondly: conditions become meaningful if the LA operates them. We issue a bunch of conditions on most large planning approvals (operate at certain times, have a car-park on site so you don't seize up the local roads, don't block people in, don't dig up the archaeological barrow, that sort of thing). Developers have a habit of ignoring these, and when we try to enforce them, we have to "show all reasonable endeavours" to come to a non-legal resolution. By which time, they've finished, because that takes years. If the LA owns the site, they can enforce the conditions.

    Thirdly: no need for management companies and payments for the public open spaces. These are becoming a bane, up there with the developers themselves. Residents are getting shafted and are rightly angry about it, and there's nothing we can do; we have no authority. The LA would own and operate the public open spaces, which is what people tend to expect. If the LA shaft the residents, the residents get to demonstrate their anger at the ballot box, and quite right, too.

    Fourthly: if the infrastructure comes in under the LA's control, they can ensure roads get built to adoptable standards, sewerage is upgraded ahead of time, sports facilities are built on schedule (all of these examples from my own ward of NOT happening with developers, and with us having no power to do anything about it).

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    The solution is surely to extend free school meals? :wink:

    (Does your typical fee-paying day school include lunch in the fee or is that an extra?)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    President-elect Donald Trump has nominated businessman Warren Stephens to serve as America’s ambassador to the United Kingdom.

    “Warren has always dreamed of serving the United States full time,” Trump said in a statement on Truth Social. “I am thrilled that he will now have that opportunity as the top diplomat, representing the USA to one of America’s most cherished and beloved allies.”

    Stephens, who is CEO of private Arkansas-based investment bank Stephens Inc, donated millions to Trump’s re-election campaign this year.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20e79nlpe6o
  • Is the stated cost of the Rwanda scheme all money that we gave to Rwanda, or do does it include the cost of fighting legal challenges to the scheme?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,378
    FPT

    It’s Retro Futurism - it’s the DeKhotinsky Sixteen Special (Roadster) from The Vortex Blaster.

    In the Gemsbeck Continuum, in 1980 something, William Gibson pointed out that this was a vision of the future that had “All the sinister fruitiness of Hitler Youth propaganda”. 100% white, blond people….


    I bought The Vortex Blaster under its alternate title of "Masters of the Vortex". I still have a copy but it's too old to pick up now.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    boulay said:

    The struggle is real, please donate generously to food banks.

    Private school group starts hardship fund for parents after VAT raid

    Erskine Stewart’s Melville Schools says some families will use food banks as they try to keep their children at the school when the charge starts next month


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/private-school-starts-hardship-fund-for-parents-after-vat-raid-hp9pbqqrc

    I don't know if VAT on private education is a good or bad thing, but if you can't afford to feed the kids to keep them at that school, then you really shouldn't be sending the kids to that school.
    To be fair, a lot of these parents have made sacrifices to afford private schools, if you've got two kids, you've got to find maybe £3,000 a term due to the increase.
    I just despise the idea of opportunity being bought at a discounted price (i.e. tax free). I find the idea of state selection to grammar schools almost as appalling, but at least in that system there is some merit in passing an exam aged eleven.

    Perhaps wealthy thick kids being promoted at the expense of smart poor ones is why we find that governance and economic activity has been so ineffective over the last couple of decades.

    Take the rebranding of Jaguar, I bet the thick twats who thought this was marketing genius were all indulged in a (probably low rent) private education.
    That will be Gerry McGovern -Chief Creative Officer of JLR who was educated at state schools.

    You've blown my argument out of the water.
    The NU10K are *superficially diverse*

    That is, Sir Jasper Quigley*, these days, may be a state educated, half Peruvian, half Welsh, second generation immigrant, but he is fundamentally the same.

    *In the novel “The Day of The Jackal”, Sir Jasper is a civil servant in the Foreign Office. Who has got every single decision wrong in his career. But because he was a Sound Chap…
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Starmer looks towards Zelensky engaging in negotiations but from a strong position at his Mansion House speech last night as President elect Trump prepares to take office next January

    "So we must continue to back Ukraine and do what it takes to support their self-defence for as long as it takes.

    "To put Ukraine in the strongest possible position for negotiations so they can secure a just and lasting peace on their terms that guarantees their security, independence, and right to choose their own future."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy89x13xle5o
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    viewcode said:

    FPT

    It’s Retro Futurism - it’s the DeKhotinsky Sixteen Special (Roadster) from The Vortex Blaster.

    In the Gemsbeck Continuum, in 1980 something, William Gibson pointed out that this was a vision of the future that had “All the sinister fruitiness of Hitler Youth propaganda”. 100% white, blond people….


    I bought The Vortex Blaster under its alternate title of "Masters of the Vortex". I still have a copy but it's too old to pick up now.

    Full text (legally) at the Gutenberg Project

    https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/22629/pg22629-images.html

  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 92

    AnthonyT said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    It took a while, after 1947, for the crud to accumulate. Bit like a stick in a drain pipe - it’s not the stick blocking the water, but the leaves etc..

    In 1948, say, no one would have presumed that not building anything was as option. That would have been considered insane and/or criminal wrecking.
    A lot of it is down to lack of trust in professionals (we see this in teaching, medicine etc). Pretty much every profession except lawyers. You’re right not to trust lawyers.

    But I’m getting distracted. You need to empower planning officials to make decisions that are sensible. If you go down the route of restricting their judgement you create a rules based environment rather than a principles based approach
    Discretion is now a dirty word. In the Process State, discretion, judgement and morality are superseded by Process.
    Are you surprised given the sort of people we have in charge? Who'd want to trust the judgment of a Paula Vennells, for instance?
    An amoral system attracts amoral people and repels the moral.
    Chris Wormald, the new Head of the Civil Service, was the head civil servant and Accounting Officer (ie the person ultimately responsible) at the Department of Health during Covid when all those dodgy & allegedly corrupt contracts were given out by the Department of Health.

    So the chats between the new corruption commissar and him should be interesting. I wonder which junior official will be scapegoated instead.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    edited December 3
    At least they've started tunnelling HS2 from Old Oak to Euston!
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Stupid person makes stupid decision and regrets it. It's the governments fault apparently.

    Even by the Telegraphs standards this is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/labour-made-me-raid-my-pension-in-a-panic-now-i-can-t-reverse-my-decision/ar-AA1vaWCL?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=ba9a7206f5b943458e011f8d0477d360&ei=18
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    This highlights the poor pay of public servants , life is tough in the civil service
    Top Nicola Sturgeon civil servant who destroyed covid WhatsApp messages retired on £1.4m pension

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/top-nicola-sturgeon-civil-servant-34229739

    They work so hard for so little.

    I am so happy they will move to 4 days a week for no loss of pay. It is what they deserve for their hard work and diligence.
    If you are on a four day week it’s because they are part time or doing compressed hours.

    The only councils looking at 4 day weeks are doing so because it’s the only way they can recruit
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    kjh said:

    Good article.

    What Andy is proposing is something I have gone on about for a long time on here - the Dutch system. Councils buy the land, put in all the services and then sell the plots to individuals for them to either self build or get a builder to do it for them. It undercuts the developers, stops land banking and prevents land speculation. Developers can still buy a tranch of plots but they will then be insentivised to build on them ASAP as they will already have paid out for the prepared land and can't hold out to force the council to give planning permission for land outside the scheme.

    Excellent article @Andy_Cooke. I also like @Richard_Tyndall suggestion above, although I say that without putting any thought into it, but on the face of it, it makes sense.

    One of the things Andy shows, as with all complex things, it is dead easy for us here (and some of us here are much worse than this that others, @leon I am looking at you) to rant and rave about stuff and spout simple solutions, when in reality (for those that know the detail rather than reading about it on some blog) know it is far far, far more difficult.

    Living in a village that was recently taken out of the Green belt and consequently has had a little boom in house building which although not wanted has gone quite well. However it seems noticeable that houses are built without the consequential infrastructure. In the case here there is nowhere for the children to go to school. Although it was pointed out by many it was ignored. It is difficult to believe those making the decisions can be that stupid so the conclusion I come to is building a new junior and secondary school was just a bridge to far at the early stages. Wait until it becomes an emergency and then it has to be done. Am I being cynical?

    PS falling rolls doesn't cut it. When you add all the villages together taken out of the green belt plus a new small town without a single new school place in an area already over subscribed it is a obvious problem.
    Since 2010 new schools are not a problem for local councils they are an issue for the department of education
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561

    Fishing said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Very good article, thanks Andy Cooke.

    On A_View_From_Cumbria's point, if 1947 is the touch point, I don't think it was immediate that housing went wrong - housebuilding was a strong driver of people "never having it so good" in the 50s and 60s, so what went wrong? Was it all Andy's accrual of precedent?

    ...
    Another question is why it wasn't such an issue in the 70s and 80s. I think it didn't matter too much when this country's population was broadly stable or slightly increasing, at least once the postwar housing shortage had been addressed. But when the population started soaring with uncontrolled immigration under Blair, we suddenly needed hundreds of thousands of new houses a year just to stand still.


    One element is that more and more restrictions have been placed on the flexibility of LAs and a second is reduced funding. It was indeed much easier in the past for LAs to self-issue planning permissions. These days, every single hoop has to be jumped through and more - to demonstrate you're not getting an unfair benefit.

    Example: in my ward, a landowner wants to work with the LA on a sizeable plot, intended to provide attractive homes, a big chunk of affordable homes, some self-build plots, and integrate seamlessly with the local infrastructure. It's taken years and is still going through early stages, because we have no short-cuts and much less funding than the big developers.

    Good article.

    What Andy is proposing is something I have gone on about for a long time on here - the Dutch system. Councils buy the land, put in all the services and then sell the plots to individuals for them to either self build or get a builder to do it for them. It undercuts the developers, stops land banking and prevents land speculation. Developers can still buy a tranch of plots but they will then be insentivised to build on them ASAP as they will already have paid out for the prepared land and can't hold out to force the council to give planning permission for land outside the scheme.

    There are other huge benefits to this way, many of which won't be readily apparent at a glance.

    Firstly: the taking-the-piss element goes away (largely). In my examples of externalities, one stands out: the open-cast mine example. That's because that is the only one I haven't personally encountered on planning in my LA.

    Secondly: conditions become meaningful if the LA operates them. We issue a bunch of conditions on most large planning approvals (operate at certain times, have a car-park on site so you don't seize up the local roads, don't block people in, don't dig up the archaeological barrow, that sort of thing). Developers have a habit of ignoring these, and when we try to enforce them, we have to "show all reasonable endeavours" to come to a non-legal resolution. By which time, they've finished, because that takes years. If the LA owns the site, they can enforce the conditions.

    Thirdly: no need for management companies and payments for the public open spaces. These are becoming a bane, up there with the developers themselves. Residents are getting shafted and are rightly angry about it, and there's nothing we can do; we have no authority. The LA would own and operate the public open spaces, which is what people tend to expect. If the LA shaft the residents, the residents get to demonstrate their anger at the ballot box, and quite right, too.

    Fourthly: if the infrastructure comes in under the LA's control, they can ensure roads get built to adoptable standards, sewerage is upgraded ahead of time, sports facilities are built on schedule (all of these examples from my own ward of NOT happening with developers, and with us having no power to do anything about it).

    Convincing article on an obvious unsolved problem. I hope Andy will get his MP to take it up.
This discussion has been closed.