"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
Yes, they became very proud of the imperialist, colonialist, racist, thieving legacy of Athens and her empire.
And are still flogging it as awesome.
Well, there was that. But there was also all the cultural achievements, and the Asia Minor Greeks knew that they were basically Ionians.
Greece would have to buy them back to acknowledge that they were bought from the technical “owners” at the time. This would help resist the inevitable follow on demands from all and sundry to return x and y.
It does not have to be an eye-watering sum but it needs to be established and accepted by Greece that they are legally owned by the BM.
Maybe throw in free entry to the Parthenon for British passport holders.
They aren’t actually that specitacular to see in the flesh (compared to other objects in the BM in my personal view) and would be better in context with the other parts - for example the Benin Bronzes should ideally all be seen together to understand the whole scale and majesty however I think bits that have been returned relatively recently have disappeared from display now so a good reason to have ironclad conditions on any future returns.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
We didn't nick enough.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
I think there's actually an argument for spreading treasures (man-made and natural) around the world, where possible. Imagine a disaster where (say) Easter Island is destroyed. Having one or two Easter Island heads on the other side of the world would save those examples for future generations. Ditto Terracotta Warriors, and many other things. Also animals: species that are rare should be spread around in various zoos and parks for preservation purposes (a little like the global seed bank in Svalbard).
Obviously this only works where there are many of something in a small geographical location, and for small items (I cannot see the pyramids being moved...) but these items also have immense cultural soft power as well. My son went through a period of being fascinated by the Terracotta Warriors (enough to make a long trip to visit a tiny museum in Dorchester), and he also became a fan of China as a result.
That would also involve us moving a handful of our typical national treasures as well. How about cricket? Damn, we've already given that. Rugby? Bugger. Tea? We stole that in the first place...
We did that in the 19th and 20th centuries. We split the good stuff between Paris, London, and New York….
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
A better analogy might be if Rockefeller has privately purchased the Lindisfarne Gospels on the quiet, though that misses out the foreign occupation element, and passed them on to the Library of Congress.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
Monumentally boring ?
Not boring, I just found something more intrinsically interesting about stuff from biblical times.
They are also not in brilliant condition.
The best piece is of course the horse of Selene, which I realised straight away that I had seen before.
Staunton must have copied it for the standard chess set.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
Monumentally boring ?
Not boring, I found something more intrinsically interesting about stuff from biblical times.
They are also not in brilliant condition.
The best piece is of course the horse of Selene, which I realised straight away that I had seen before.
Staunton must have copied it for the standard chess set.
♘f3
It was just a pun. I found them quite moving for much the same reason, FWIW.
If the Crown Jewels are NOT our equivalent of the Parthenon Marbles, what would be?
Stonehenge? Something else?
Don't be ridiculous - if we ever had any national treasure stolen, say women by the barbary pirates, we'd just downgrade their importance.
Last year we had a fab holiday in Kent. In one of the small villages overlooking the sea there was a Saxon church and about 1200 the French came across and stole the church's bells along with the odd maiden etc. The following year the men of the village and a couple of neighbouring villages went over to France and took them back. It was a great story and a fascinating building.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Actually that is barely cared for. Just sits rather forlornly. (Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of)
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
How is it a leading question? You need some context because most people probably don't know what the marbles are. I hadn't heard of them before this became political!
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
Denial.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Do we know what national treasures Elon and Clarkson think?
Musk would go nuts. He'd call Starmer a cuck and a wimp and a beta if he did a deal on the elgins.
He is already nuts and will call Starmer a cuck, beta and a wimp regardless.
Why don't we put the Marbles up in Elgin. Would avoid a lot of confusion, could be the centrepiece of a new A96 bypass, already on the whisky tourist trail.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
Arguably that's actually ignoring all the basics.
As a matter of interest, what would you say are the basics then?
If the Crown Jewels are NOT our equivalent of the Parthenon Marbles, what would be?
Stonehenge? Something else?
Don't be ridiculous - if we ever had any national treasure stolen, say women by the barbary pirates, we'd just downgrade their importance.
Last year we had a fab holiday in Kent. In one of the small villages overlooking the sea there was a Saxon church and about 1200 the French came across and stole the church's bells along with the odd maiden etc. The following year the men of the village and a couple of neighbouring villages went over to France and took them back. It was a great story and a fascinating building.
Its odd that Kentish skirmishes with the French aren't more known. Tales of the seafarers of the South-West seem much more common. I really can't think beyond the odd mention here and there.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
I think Starmer always saw it as a more managerial role than it actually is.
After Boris, Truss and Sunak the Country desperately needs competent management
Like a big Oil Tanker it will take time to turn around.
He will. Judge him in 2 years time.
It takes less than 5 minutes to turn a (very) big Oil Tanker around !
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
A better analogy might be if Rockefeller has privately purchased the Lindisfarne Gospels on the quiet, though that misses out the foreign occupation element, and passed them on to the Library of Congress.
There are of course many artefacts owned abroad that would ideally be in the UK but we accept that if they were sold under the law of the time then it’s unfortunate but fair.
This armour for example should be in the UK, it’s not, but can’t get overly cross.
I’m most surprised how little noise is made by the Italians with regard to the staggering amount of loot taken by Napoleon’s armies in Italy - it that was returned the Louvre and other French museums would be left with the things Napoleon’s armies took from Egypt.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
A better analogy might be if Rockefeller has privately purchased the Lindisfarne Gospels on the quiet, though that misses out the foreign occupation element, and passed them on to the Library of Congress.
There are of course many artefacts owned abroad that would ideally be in the UK but we accept that if they were sold under the law of the time then it’s unfortunate but fair.
This armour for example should be in the UK, it’s not, but can’t get overly cross.
I’m most surprised how little noise is made by the Italians with regard to the staggering amount of loot taken by Napoleon’s armies in Italy - it that was returned the Louvre and other French museums would be left with the things Napoleon’s armies took from Egypt.
Those pieces of armour are examples of what I mentioned though: they are not rare. The Tower of London is stuffed to the gunnels with spectacular armour, much of it belonging to one king or another, as are other museums.
Having a handful of pieces around the world is, IMV, good for this country, as it is a little bit of soft power. Some young kid with imagination might go into the Met, see the armour, ask questions, then dream.
"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
Yes, they became very proud of the imperialist, colonialist, racist, thieving legacy of Athens and her empire.
And are still flogging it as awesome.
Well, there was that. But there was also all the cultural achievements, and the Asia Minor Greeks knew that they were basically Ionians.
If someone started banging on to you about the cultural achievements of the British Empire, as justification, would you be impressed?
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
In the context of a Trump presidency, Chagos ought to be chucked back at him when he says we're not pulling our weight. Make a virtue of a poor deal.
What proportion of the population have looked at the Marbles?
That's a bit of a non sequitur to my comment, Nick.
But from last year: ...77% of the British public have never seen the Parthenon Sculptures in the British Museum while seven out of ten say that their return to Athens would not have an impact on their interest in visiting the British Museum...
The fact that 23% of us have is really quite astounding. Barely credible in fact.
The British Museum had nearly six million visitors last year. Now, sure, large numbers will be foreign tourists, and repeat visitors, but half a million first-time British visitors a year is possible. Would add up to 15 million in 30 years.
So you wouldn't even need as many as 500,000 first-time British visitors a year.
You start running into repeats though on that timescale - mum or grandpa with the children, or on their own.
Yes. There will be repeat visitors. Obviously members who might come several times a year for exhibitions, and some of the people who live or work nearby might pop in regularly.
But you need less than 10% of visitors to be first-time British visitors. That doesn't seem implausible.
Given how useless the BM has been at looking after its stuff, the Greeks could probably buy the marbles off eBay for £42.38 without the museum noticing.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
A better analogy might be if Rockefeller has privately purchased the Lindisfarne Gospels on the quiet, though that misses out the foreign occupation element, and passed them on to the Library of Congress.
There are of course many artefacts owned abroad that would ideally be in the UK but we accept that if they were sold under the law of the time then it’s unfortunate but fair.
This armour for example should be in the UK, it’s not, but can’t get overly cross.
I’m most surprised how little noise is made by the Italians with regard to the staggering amount of loot taken by Napoleon’s armies in Italy - it that was returned the Louvre and other French museums would be left with the things Napoleon’s armies took from Egypt.
Those pieces of armour are examples of what I mentioned though: they are not rare. The Tower of London is stuffed to the gunnels with spectacular armour, much of it belonging to one king or another, as are other museums.
Having a handful of pieces around the world is, IMV, good for this country, as it is a little bit of soft power. Some young kid with imagination might go into the Met, see the armour, ask questions, then dream.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Actually that is barely cared for. Just sits rather forlornly. (Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of)
Indeed.
Siting outside. It is one of the oldest artefacts that we have a definite provenance for. 478BC
"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
Yes, they became very proud of the imperialist, colonialist, racist, thieving legacy of Athens and her empire.
And are still flogging it as awesome.
Well, there was that. But there was also all the cultural achievements, and the Asia Minor Greeks knew that they were basically Ionians.
If someone started banging on to you about the cultural achievements of the British Empire, as justification, would you be impressed?
I would say it's more about historical claims than achievements, in this area
If someone like the BM disputes a historical claim, naturally someone like a Greek wifh a millennium-old name like Economidis from Asia Minor will make a counter-claim.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
A better analogy might be if Rockefeller has privately purchased the Lindisfarne Gospels on the quiet, though that misses out the foreign occupation element, and passed them on to the Library of Congress.
There are of course many artefacts owned abroad that would ideally be in the UK but we accept that if they were sold under the law of the time then it’s unfortunate but fair.
This armour for example should be in the UK, it’s not, but can’t get overly cross.
I’m most surprised how little noise is made by the Italians with regard to the staggering amount of loot taken by Napoleon’s armies in Italy - it that was returned the Louvre and other French museums would be left with the things Napoleon’s armies took from Egypt.
On a similar note, I'm quite interested in the lack of noise from Egypt about Cleopatra's pincushion - made up of the many Egyptian obelisks which were nicked and taken to Rome. There are eight.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
Arguably that's actually ignoring all the basics.
As a matter of interest, what would you say are the basics then?
I think it turns on perceptions, symbols, the place in the national psyche, implications for other artefacts, and so on. That all needs to be navigated.
Saying it is about chunks of stone is - choosing an analogy - perhaps like burning a USA flag outside the White House, then explaining to the police that it was OK because the pollution was minimal and there was no fire risk.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Actually that is barely cared for. Just sits rather forlornly. (Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of)
Indeed.
Siting outside. It is one of the oldest artefacts that we have a definite provenance for. 478BC
And it’s left outside, in the weather.
I raise you three Pyramids sitting outside Cairo...
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Actually that is barely cared for. Just sits rather forlornly. (Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of)
Indeed.
Siting outside. It is one of the oldest artefacts that we have a definite provenance for. 478BC
And it’s left outside, in the weather.
The good thing now is that whatever the keeping we have records of these things. I've always been in awe of the tales of the Great Library in Alexandria - is it better that I'm that way, or would it be actually better if I could today read a whole load of shipping manuscripts and bad poetry?
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
Denial.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Do we know what national treasures Elon and Clarkson think?
Musk would go nuts. He'd call Starmer a cuck and a wimp and a beta if he did a deal on the elgins.
He is already nuts and will call Starmer a cuck, beta and a wimp regardless.
Every time I think of Melon Musk I get this song in my head... seems pretty appropriate since Breyten Breytenbach died last week... https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x64b8uq
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Actually that is barely cared for. Just sits rather forlornly. (Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of)
Indeed.
Siting outside. It is one of the oldest artefacts that we have a definite provenance for. 478BC
And it’s left outside, in the weather.
I raise you three Pyramids sitting outside Cairo...
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
The lag is a real problem for streaming. Anyone with LiveSports on their phone can 'see' the goals before they are shown on screen. It ruins the group experience (i.e. in the pub) and indeed makes streaming useless for betting. Hence why I have stuck with cable and avoided the likes of Sky Glass.
In play betting is a mugs game regardless of over the air or streaming. Its like trying to day trade from a home internet. I used to make a decent chunk of my income from in-play betting of cricket totals, but as soon as I found out about court-siding syndicates, absolutely not going near it.
Mostly about european countries, but more interesting to me for the USA figure. If you meet someone foreign-born in the US, there is a 25% chance they are there illegally:
No they haven't. They've damaged their brand by making profound marketing and product development mistakes. They have 'new coked' their brand. To 'Ratner' their brand, they would have had to publicly acknowledge that their successful brand was (and I quote) 'crap', thus demolishing their brand overnight. Very few people except Gerald Ratner have ever ratnered a brand.
I'm not so sure that they have. Dress it up in pink and it's striking, and it's only ever going to look better in other colours.
At 130k the engineering is going to have to be the best in the world though. I don't think they can deliver that, but I guess they get to have a go.
They are a laughing stock, Matt the latest to nail them, and the market they are targeting don't have 100k+ to spend on a car.
I don't know. Seeing the unmentionable hideousness that footballers, footballers' WAGs, and oil money billionaires do to Rolls Royces and Ferraris, there's probably a very ready market.
But I'll restate what I said the other day: jaguars problem is that they're not mass market enough, or not high-end enough. They're in a very narrow middle ground.
If the Crown Jewels are NOT our equivalent of the Parthenon Marbles, what would be?
Stonehenge? Something else?
Tracey Emin's unmade bed.
BTW, off to Ashington on the 15th then, Sunil?
Nope
a) It'll be bloody dark by the time I get there from London.
b) Four of the six stations are still being built! Moth-eaten line or what
I'll wait until the spring or summer.
That's my plan too. Using a Northern free ticket to go via Carlisle, so want the daylight for the scenery.
Call yourself enthusiasts!!!! You should be there on the first train on the first day, and also waiting at every station to see the first train through, and driving the train.
I'm not so sure that they have. Dress it up in pink and it's striking, and it's only ever going to look better in other colours.
At 130k the engineering is going to have to be the best in the world though. I don't think they can deliver that, but I guess they get to have a go.
They are a laughing stock, Matt the latest to nail them, and the market they are targeting don't have 100k+ to spend on a car.
I don't know. Seeing the unmentionable hideousness that footballers, footballers' WAGs, and oil money billionaires do to Rolls Royces and Ferraris, there's probably a very ready market.
But I'll restate what I said the other day: jaguars problem is that they're not mass market enough, or not high-end enough. They're in a very narrow middle ground.
That's a fair point, highly modded Lamborghini Anus and the Mercedes Wank Wagon are footballer favs.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
The lag is a real problem for streaming. Anyone with LiveSports on their phone can 'see' the goals before they are shown on screen. It ruins the group experience (i.e. in the pub) and indeed makes streaming useless for betting. Hence why I have stuck with cable and avoided the likes of Sky Glass.
In play betting is a mugs game regardless of over the air or streaming. Its like trying to day trade from a home internet. I used to make a decent chunk of my income from in-play betting of cricket totals, but as soon as I found out about court-siding syndicates, absolutely not going near it.
My mate makes a fair living from in-running betting on the horses, but not the six-figure sums boasted of by the drone users. I have another friend who made a few quid on football but there is not the volume of events to make it more than a leisure activity (for him at least).
If the Crown Jewels are NOT our equivalent of the Parthenon Marbles, what would be?
Stonehenge? Something else?
Tracey Emin's unmade bed.
BTW, off to Ashington on the 15th then, Sunil?
Nope
a) It'll be bloody dark by the time I get there from London.
b) Four of the six stations are still being built! Moth-eaten line or what
I'll wait until the spring or summer.
That's my plan too. Using a Northern free ticket to go via Carlisle, so want the daylight for the scenery.
Call yourself enthusiasts!!!! You should be there on the first train on the first day, and also waiting at every station to see the first train through, and driving the train.
Bloody slackers!
He could also drop down to the superb Tanfield heritage railway line while up here.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
The lag is a real problem for streaming. Anyone with LiveSports on their phone can 'see' the goals before they are shown on screen. It ruins the group experience (i.e. in the pub) and indeed makes streaming useless for betting. Hence why I have stuck with cable and avoided the likes of Sky Glass.
In play betting is a mugs game regardless of over the air or streaming. Its like trying to day trade from a home internet. I used to make a decent chunk of my income from in-play betting of cricket totals, but as soon as I found out about court-siding syndicates, absolutely not going near it.
My mate makes a fair living from in-running betting on the horses, but not the six-figure sums boasted of by the drone users. I have another friend who made a few quid on football but there is not the volume of events to make it more than a leisure activity (for him at least).
Betting on football full stop is a fools errand. Tony Bloom, compete with 100+ PhDs and the best mathematical models in the business, supposedly makes an ROI of ~2% in a good year....it is a highly efficient market.
Haralabos Voulgaris is a great guy to listen to about the reality of being a top level sports sharp. His insights were so advanced in the end he got hired by an NBA to show them all the things they do wrong.
I'm not so sure that they have. Dress it up in pink and it's striking, and it's only ever going to look better in other colours.
At 130k the engineering is going to have to be the best in the world though. I don't think they can deliver that, but I guess they get to have a go.
I agree
I was on a long drive yesterday and was struck (again) by just how ugly Tesla's are.
The jaG is not ugly
White Teslas are the worst. They look East German circa 1970. My mate has a blue one whose door handles are unintuitive, that rattles because nothing is screwed or glued properly, and has the turning circle of a London bus. It is probably fine on those wide, straight American roads.
Following up on my previous post: I thin jaguar are/were pretty much doomed as an 'independent' carmaker. The market's changed too much, their potential market is being squeezed from both ends, and there is a revolution occurring in the change to EVs that they are ill-equipped to take advantage of.
Given that, I can see why they might try something radically different. If you're doomed anyway, why not just try something different? You may speed your death up, but there's a small chance you might also survive.
Following up on my previous post: I thin jaguar are/were pretty much doomed as an 'independent' carmaker. The market's changed too much, their potential market is being squeezed from both ends, and there is a revolution occurring in the change to EVs that they are ill-equipped to take advantage of.
Given that, I can see why they might try something radically different. If you're doomed anyway, why not just try something different? You may speed your death up, but there's a small chance you might also survive.
Its interesting that the other half of JLR have managed to transcend from farmer mobile to the car all the cool kids want (without the need for extreme rebranding ads). I mean the fact they can be nicked by a toddler and they break down all the time is another matter, the brand is so strong people still want them despite the fact that the insurance is through the roof (if you can get it) and they aren't as good as other cars costing the same amount.
I'm with the majority of the British public on this one.
The Parthenon marbles are of immense historical significance, Greece has been an ally of ours since it became a state again, and we can be confident that the marbles would be looked after very carefully and would be on permanent display and in context. It would be a great present to celebrate 200 years of anglo-Greek friendship.
It needn't set a precedent for other treasures. The Benin bronzes are much more recent origin, and also a product of the Triangular trade, as the bronze that they are formed from was a key commodity exported to West Africa, even if the artistry was more local. With such difficulty visiting Nigeria they are better displayed to the world in London, though occasional exhibitions of them in Nigeria should be arranged.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
The lag is a real problem for streaming. Anyone with LiveSports on their phone can 'see' the goals before they are shown on screen. It ruins the group experience (i.e. in the pub) and indeed makes streaming useless for betting. Hence why I have stuck with cable and avoided the likes of Sky Glass.
In play betting is a mugs game regardless of over the air or streaming. Its like trying to day trade from a home internet. I used to make a decent chunk of my income from in-play betting of cricket totals, but as soon as I found out about court-siding syndicates, absolutely not going near it.
My mate makes a fair living from in-running betting on the horses, but not the six-figure sums boasted of by the drone users. I have another friend who made a few quid on football but there is not the volume of events to make it more than a leisure activity (for him at least).
Betting on football full stop is a fools errand. Tony Bloom, compete with 100+ PhDs and the best mathematical models in the business, supposedly makes an ROI of ~2% in a good year....it is a highly efficient market.
Haralabos Voulgaris is a great guy to listen to about the reality of being a top level sports sharp. His insights were so advanced in the end he got hired by an NBA to show them all the things they do wrong.
Michael Lewis (Moneyball, The Big Short etc) has been podcasting about sports betting recently, although I have not got round to listening.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
The lag is a real problem for streaming. Anyone with LiveSports on their phone can 'see' the goals before they are shown on screen. It ruins the group experience (i.e. in the pub) and indeed makes streaming useless for betting. Hence why I have stuck with cable and avoided the likes of Sky Glass.
In play betting is a mugs game regardless of over the air or streaming. Its like trying to day trade from a home internet. I used to make a decent chunk of my income from in-play betting of cricket totals, but as soon as I found out about court-siding syndicates, absolutely not going near it.
My mate makes a fair living from in-running betting on the horses, but not the six-figure sums boasted of by the drone users. I have another friend who made a few quid on football but there is not the volume of events to make it more than a leisure activity (for him at least).
Betting on football full stop is a fools errand. Tony Bloom, compete with 100+ PhDs and the best mathematical models in the business, supposedly makes an ROI of ~2% in a good year....it is a highly efficient market.
Haralabos Voulgaris is a great guy to listen to about the reality of being a top level sports sharp. His insights were so advanced in the end he got hired by an NBA to show them all the things they do wrong.
Michael Lewis (Moneyball, The Big Short etc) has been podcasting about sports betting recently, although I have not got round to listening.
Bob's story is fascinating, super smart guy, drove a cab to get his bankroll and transitioned from finding an edge to do with basketball half time scores to employing teams of PhDs to build highly advanced mathematical models, while in the trenches trying to get money on. So many crazy crazy stories of how you actually get money on when you are a known mega sharp, how you get stiffed all the time every which way, how to deal with the dodgiest people, etc.
I am always interested how Tony Bloom still gets money on in the size that he bets. He gets millions on every game, totalling billions over a season. We know its pretty much all in Asia, but how he gets that money into those markets I don't know. Even somebody like a Pinnacle who will take sharps money, won't take that much money.
As far as a I know one of the reasons Haralabos transitioned into a regular job was he couldn't actually get the action on anymore, and he is an arrogant so and so who wanted to show the NBA that they were wrong about lots of things.
Now he owns a football team in Spain and finding success with that already.
Very off-topic, but does anyone have any boiler insurance recommendations? I am currently with Hometree and they are dreadful. After explaining to them I'm not available for the next two weeks I had a text from a previous gas engineer I told them explicitly I didn't ever want to visit again that he'd be here 'sometime tomorrow' but couldn't give a time as 'he has a busy day'.
(Last year he visited - said the boiler was all ok, then the boiler failed about 10 days later, Hometree said it was too late to claim, charged me to call out some other engineers, who pointed out the previous guy (as in the one I said I never want to visit who is now wanting to come tomorrow) had fecked the boiler and also missed a manufacturer recall on some of the parts as they were extremely dangerous).
Very off-topic, but does anyone have any boiler insurance recommendations? I am currently with Hometree and they are dreadful. After explaining to them I'm not available for the next two weeks I had a text from a previous gas engineer I told them explicitly I didn't ever want to visit again that he'd be here 'sometime tomorrow' but couldn't give a time as 'he has a busy day'.
(Last year he visited - said the boiler was all ok, then the boiler failed about 10 days later, Hometree said it was too late to claim, charged me to call out some other engineers, who pointed out the previous guy (as in the one I said I never want to visit who is now wanting to come tomorrow) had fecked the boiler and also missed a manufacturer recall on some of the parts as they were extremely dangerous).
Very off-topic, but does anyone have any boiler insurance recommendations? I am currently with Hometree and they are dreadful. After explaining to them I'm not available for the next two weeks I had a text from a previous gas engineer I told them explicitly I didn't ever want to visit again that he'd be here 'sometime tomorrow' but couldn't give a time as 'he has a busy day'.
(Last year he visited - said the boiler was all ok, then the boiler failed about 10 days later, Hometree said it was too late to claim, charged me to call out some other engineers, who pointed out the previous guy (as in the one I said I never want to visit who is now wanting to come tomorrow) had fecked the boiler and also missed a manufacturer recall on some of the parts as they were extremely dangerous).
No! You're annoyed!...
British Gas are running adverts on the radio at the moment saying that they will come at the same speed whether you are a member or not. So if you're insuring purely for fast service - rather than as a financial tool to spread costs - maybe you don't need it?
"Over the past few weeks, I’ve been making a documentary about this for Channel 4. Britain’s Benefits Scandal hears from some of those affected – people who are often missing from the debate. We have 3.2 million trapped in a system in which they are given a decent payout – some I spoke to said about £1,300 a month, some significantly more – but who want to get back to work. Yet they risk losing everything if they attempt to do so. Even training for a new trade puts you at risk of being reassessed."
No they haven't. They've damaged their brand by making profound marketing and product development mistakes. They have 'new coked' their brand. To 'Ratner' their brand, they would have had to publicly acknowledge that their successful brand was (and I quote) 'crap', thus demolishing their brand overnight. Very few people except Gerald Ratner have ever ratnered a brand.
A true Ratner moment needs you to simultaneously trash your products and insult your customers, which is not easy.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Actually that is barely cared for. Just sits rather forlornly. (Assuming it's the one I'm thinking of)
Indeed.
Siting outside. It is one of the oldest artefacts that we have a definite provenance for. 478BC
And it’s left outside, in the weather.
The good thing now is that whatever the keeping we have records of these things. I've always been in awe of the tales of the Great Library in Alexandria - is it better that I'm that way, or would it be actually better if I could today read a whole load of shipping manuscripts and bad poetry?
Depends if you want a Bachelor of Arts and a £40grand debt. You get to make polite chit-chat at dinner parties in return. If you're undecided.
No they haven't. They've damaged their brand by making profound marketing and product development mistakes. They have 'new coked' their brand. To 'Ratner' their brand, they would have had to publicly acknowledge that their successful brand was (and I quote) 'crap', thus demolishing their brand overnight. Very few people except Gerald Ratner have ever ratnered a brand.
A true Ratner moment needs you to simultaneously trash your products and insult your customers, which is not easy.
Following up on my previous post: I thin jaguar are/were pretty much doomed as an 'independent' carmaker. The market's changed too much, their potential market is being squeezed from both ends, and there is a revolution occurring in the change to EVs that they are ill-equipped to take advantage of.
Given that, I can see why they might try something radically different. If you're doomed anyway, why not just try something different? You may speed your death up, but there's a small chance you might also survive.
Lots of decent people with a social conscience won't buy a Tesla now because of Musk so there's an opportunity there for someone and why not jaguar? Perhaps this explains the radical switch in their marketing.
Celebrity Chef and TV cookery show presenter, Tom Kerridge, who was one of 120 people who signed a letter of support for labour prior to the election finds life comes at you fast.
Very off-topic, but does anyone have any boiler insurance recommendations? I am currently with Hometree and they are dreadful. After explaining to them I'm not available for the next two weeks I had a text from a previous gas engineer I told them explicitly I didn't ever want to visit again that he'd be here 'sometime tomorrow' but couldn't give a time as 'he has a busy day'.
(Last year he visited - said the boiler was all ok, then the boiler failed about 10 days later, Hometree said it was too late to claim, charged me to call out some other engineers, who pointed out the previous guy (as in the one I said I never want to visit who is now wanting to come tomorrow) had fecked the boiler and also missed a manufacturer recall on some of the parts as they were extremely dangerous).
No! You're annoyed!...
We use Gas Sure (James Frew), and are very happy with them.
"Over the past few weeks, I’ve been making a documentary about this for Channel 4. Britain’s Benefits Scandal hears from some of those affected – people who are often missing from the debate. We have 3.2 million trapped in a system in which they are given a decent payout – some I spoke to said about £1,300 a month, some significantly more – but who want to get back to work. Yet they risk losing everything if they attempt to do so. Even training for a new trade puts you at risk of being reassessed."
There was a really interested thread on my local reddit recently. Someone asking if others struggled to move up the job ladder.
Lots of comments from people struggling to get off benefits for fear of losing roof over their heads, people who had to give up jobs because of transport costs (or non-existent/unreliable public transport), or people who couldn't take up better jobs for the same. People wanting to work a second job, but finding they would be poorer due to tax/transport, wanting to retrain/re-educate - similar.
Over and over - people wanting to do better, but one way or another being tripped up by processes and systems outwith their control.
It was quite disheartening. Especially knowing that they'll just be bundled into the 'low productivity! what can possibly be done with the feckless!?' pile.
I'm not so sure that they have. Dress it up in pink and it's striking, and it's only ever going to look better in other colours.
At 130k the engineering is going to have to be the best in the world though. I don't think they can deliver that, but I guess they get to have a go.
I agree
I was on a long drive yesterday and was struck (again) by just how ugly Tesla's are.
The jaG is not ugly
The Tesla Cybertruck is the most beautiful vehicle ever constructed and I want one.
Nothing compares to the Hillman Imp, even with the design flaws.
My parents had a Hillman Hunter. I still remember my childhood fascination of watching the tarmac whizz by under the car through the rusty holes in the floor.
Very off-topic, but does anyone have any boiler insurance recommendations? I am currently with Hometree and they are dreadful. After explaining to them I'm not available for the next two weeks I had a text from a previous gas engineer I told them explicitly I didn't ever want to visit again that he'd be here 'sometime tomorrow' but couldn't give a time as 'he has a busy day'.
(Last year he visited - said the boiler was all ok, then the boiler failed about 10 days later, Hometree said it was too late to claim, charged me to call out some other engineers, who pointed out the previous guy (as in the one I said I never want to visit who is now wanting to come tomorrow) had fecked the boiler and also missed a manufacturer recall on some of the parts as they were extremely dangerous).
No! You're annoyed!...
We use Gas Sure (James Frew), and are very happy with them.
We had a new combi boiler fitted earlier this year and it is amazing when compared with the one it replaced
We used to have homeserve, but found a local plumber who is excellent and far cheaper than homeserve and we can text him and he will attend very quickly not least as he lives 400 yards away
Comments
But there was also all the cultural achievements, and the Asia Minor Greeks knew that they were basically Ionians.
Isn't this a bit like Hitler and Stalin? The only relevant question was who would break their word first.
They are also not in brilliant condition.
The best piece is of course the horse of Selene, which I realised straight away that I had seen before.
Staunton must have copied it for the standard chess set.
♘f3
If they get to rewrite history and claim they were always on the side of the good guys then fine, it’s all in a just cause.
I found them quite moving for much the same reason, FWIW.
It's the biggest load of junk outside of a Damien Hirst exhibition.
A very interesting hippie folk band playing, and a beautiful women dancing. I reject the return of the Henge to Scotland.
I thought we did that one recently.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0022skj
This armour for example should be in the UK, it’s not, but can’t get overly cross.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/23936
And this
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22741
I’m most surprised how little noise is made by the Italians with regard to the staggering amount of loot taken by Napoleon’s armies in Italy - it that was returned the Louvre and other French museums would be left with the things Napoleon’s armies took from Egypt.
Having a handful of pieces around the world is, IMV, good for this country, as it is a little bit of soft power. Some young kid with imagination might go into the Met, see the armour, ask questions, then dream.
But you need less than 10% of visitors to be first-time British visitors. That doesn't seem implausible.
There’s one in Australia that is a very high reproduction, IIRC
Siting outside. It is one of the oldest artefacts that we have a definite provenance for. 478BC
And it’s left outside, in the weather.
If someone like the BM disputes a historical claim, naturally someone like a Greek wifh a millennium-old name like Economidis from Asia Minor will make a counter-claim.
Saying it is about chunks of stone is - choosing an analogy - perhaps like burning a USA flag outside the White House, then explaining to the police that it was OK because the pollution was minimal and there was no fire risk.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2024/12/02/TELEMMGLPICT000403838369_17331616021810_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.jpeg?imwidth=1280&imdensity=2
BTW, off to Ashington on the 15th then, Sunil?
a) It'll be bloody dark by the time I get there from London.
b) Four of the six stations are still being built! Moth-eaten line or what
I'll wait until the spring or summer.
At 130k the engineering is going to have to be the best in the world though. I don't think they can deliver that, but I guess they get to have a go.
French government faces no-confidence vote on Wednesday
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/02/french-pm-michel-barnier-risk-toppled-hostile-parliament
I was on a long drive yesterday and was struck (again) by just how ugly Tesla's are.
The jaG is not ugly
(Comparison, UK 10-13%)
Source: Page 31, https://irregularmigration.eu/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/MIRREM-Kierans-and-Vargas-Silva-2024-Irregular-Migrant-Population-in-Europe-v1.pdf
Though I do prefer British Racing Green to Barbie pastel pink.
But I'll restate what I said the other day: jaguars problem is that they're not mass market enough, or not high-end enough. They're in a very narrow middle ground.
Bloody slackers!
Haralabos Voulgaris is a great guy to listen to about the reality of being a top level sports sharp. His insights were so advanced in the end he got hired by an NBA to show them all the things they do wrong.
'The Welsh are revolting and Badenoch should be worried.'
Is based on the YouGov Senedd poll showing the Tories in fourth place.
Following up on my previous post: I thin jaguar are/were pretty much doomed as an 'independent' carmaker. The market's changed too much, their potential market is being squeezed from both ends, and there is a revolution occurring in the change to EVs that they are ill-equipped to take advantage of.
Given that, I can see why they might try something radically different. If you're doomed anyway, why not just try something different? You may speed your death up, but there's a small chance you might also survive.
The Parthenon marbles are of immense historical significance, Greece has been an ally of ours since it became a state again, and we can be confident that the marbles would be looked after very carefully and would be on permanent display and in context. It would be a great present to celebrate 200 years of anglo-Greek friendship.
It needn't set a precedent for other treasures. The Benin bronzes are much more recent origin, and also a product of the Triangular trade, as the bronze that they are formed from was a key commodity exported to West Africa, even if the artistry was more local. With such difficulty visiting Nigeria they are better displayed to the world in London, though occasional exhibitions of them in Nigeria should be arranged.
I am always interested how Tony Bloom still gets money on in the size that he bets. He gets millions on every game, totalling billions over a season. We know its pretty much all in Asia, but how he gets that money into those markets I don't know. Even somebody like a Pinnacle who will take sharps money, won't take that much money.
As far as a I know one of the reasons Haralabos transitioned into a regular job was he couldn't actually get the action on anymore, and he is an arrogant so and so who wanted to show the NBA that they were wrong about lots of things.
Now he owns a football team in Spain and finding success with that already.
(Last year he visited - said the boiler was all ok, then the boiler failed about 10 days later, Hometree said it was too late to claim, charged me to call out some other engineers, who pointed out the previous guy (as in the one I said I never want to visit who is now wanting to come tomorrow) had fecked the boiler and also missed a manufacturer recall on some of the parts as they were extremely dangerous).
No! You're annoyed!...
They service the boiler every year and so far it hasn't let me down. Both my neighbours had theirs replaced (and both of them had leaks afterwards).
"Over the past few weeks, I’ve been making a documentary about this for Channel 4. Britain’s Benefits Scandal hears from some of those affected – people who are often missing from the debate. We have 3.2 million trapped in a system in which they are given a decent payout – some I spoke to said about £1,300 a month, some significantly more – but who want to get back to work. Yet they risk losing everything if they attempt to do so. Even training for a new trade puts you at risk of being reassessed."
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sickness-benefit-trap/
Among its first conclusions:
“COVID-19 ORIGINS
A lab-related incident involving dangerous gain-of-function research in China is the most likely origin of the COVID-19 pandemic.
EcoHealth Alliance Inc. used U.S. taxpayer dollars to facilitate gain-of-function research in Wuhan, China. READ MORE⬇️”
https://x.com/covidselect/status/1863637371624862163?s=46
Now we need to see people in court, on trial. 30 million humans died, entire economies were wrecked
https://x.com/sophyridgesky/status/1863677095345324454?s=61
God, they're annoying. Constant calls and texts and always trying to get me to buy a full case (nothing else will do) at measly 15% discounts.
I was putting £15 a month in for the occasional splash out but I'm tempted to cancel now.
Lots of comments from people struggling to get off benefits for fear of losing roof over their heads, people who had to give up jobs because of transport costs (or non-existent/unreliable public transport), or people who couldn't take up better jobs for the same. People wanting to work a second job, but finding they would be poorer due to tax/transport, wanting to retrain/re-educate - similar.
Over and over - people wanting to do better, but one way or another being tripped up by processes and systems outwith their control.
It was quite disheartening. Especially knowing that they'll just be bundled into the 'low productivity! what can possibly be done with the feckless!?' pile.
We used to have homeserve, but found a local plumber who is excellent and far cheaper than homeserve and we can text him and he will attend very quickly not least as he lives 400 yards away