I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
I agree with most of your post, but not your somewhat incongruous contention that they are "terrible politicians". How many "terrible politicians" have masterminded landslides of that scale and inflicted the worst defeat on their prime opponents in history?
(And as for gilt yields, we used to hear updates every five minutes on here from the PB Tories. They have become strangely silent on the matter in recent weeks).
I think Starmer was smart enough to leave the GE strategy to others. But I think a better politician would not have boxed himself in pre-GE in the way that Starmer did, they'd have found a way to retain a lot more flexibility on how and where to raise cash.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I think they should return now, either loan or gift or whatever. There is a linked question however. It is self evident that the UK's first priority in respect of the history of first rate objects mus be to our own. Do we end up caring less in practical terms about our thousands of Grade 1 (and Grade 2*) buildings, and the rest of our artistic heritage than we do about ones we have abstracted, for whatever reason, from other countries?
The heritage at Risk Register makes fairly sobering reading.
Correct me please if I have this wrong but my understanding is that Elgin effectively rescued the marbles. The Greeks weren't interested in them and would probably have ground them into dust to make concrete.*
This doesn't of course mean that they are legally ours, and even if they are I'd have thought it was about time they were handed back, if only as a gesture of goodwill to a friendly democratic nation. The only reason for hesitation would be the matter of encouraging a zillion other claims, mostly spurious too.
Maybe leaseback makes sense.
* Yes, I know I could Google this, but I generally find asking PB is quicker and more accurate.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
In the context of a Trump presidency, Chagos ought to be chucked back at him when he says we're not pulling our weight. Make a virtue of a poor deal.
What proportion of the population have looked at the Marbles?
I have, and frankly found them underwhelming. Unlike (say) Trajan's column, or the fascinating Rosetta Stone.
The issue, as is often the case, is that they are more political than archaeological. if we give them up, in the eyes of many, we lose a little bit of prestige and power. And likewise, the Greeks want them, in part (*), because they have become a symbol.
If this was not the case, one or either could just do with casts.
Therefore any 'solution' has to be one that allows both sides to preserve, and give, a little face.
(*) Or parts...
Yes, it's only partly about the marbles, or whatever artifact nation x chooses to seek or retain as they case may be.
I think the Greeks need to acknowledge the history of the Marbles.
That is, Pericles stole the Treasury of the Athenian League and turned it into the Athenian Empire. Allies became subjects.
He used the money to rebuild Athens, and the Acropolis in particular. To get himself re-elected as Athenian leader.
The result of Athens becoming an imperial state was to kick off a war with Sparta. Which ultimately resulted in Athens being defeated.
So the marbles were paid for with stolen money as a part of a self aggrandising populist regime that ultimate created imperial overstretch and collapse. Oh and the construction of the Parthenon included huge amounts of slave labour. Including some from the Greek islands forced into the Athenian Empire, who rebelled.
The Marbles were the glorification of racist, imperialist colonialists, using stolen money and slave labour.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
I agree with most of your post, but not your somewhat incongruous contention that they are "terrible politicians". How many "terrible politicians" have masterminded landslides of that scale and inflicted the worst defeat on their prime opponents in history?
(And as for gilt yields, we used to hear updates every five minutes on here from the PB Tories. They have become strangely silent on the matter in recent weeks).
I think Starmer was smart enough to leave the GE strategy to others. But I think a better politician would not have boxed himself in pre-GE in the way that Starmer did, they'd have found a way to retain a lot more flexibility on how and where to raise cash.
Well that hardly makes them "terrible politicians". Blair did the same in 1997.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
How does it work with Irish rules- does a government have to have an absolute majority to take office? After seeing what happened to the Greens this time, it's a helluva gamble for any third party joining the government.
(But credit where it's due- we have an incumbent government surviving an election- the only one in 2024?)
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Increase council tax bands? What does that mean - create new higher bands above existing ones?
Some form of wealth tax - well Reeves did this. But only for private sector retirees by dragging DC pensions into the IHT regime. This will make more estates liable for IHT and those already liable will pay more.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
He was raised as a potential leader mere weeks after being elected as an MP for the first time (and I highly doubt he played no part in it being raised), and has been accused by the left of his party of ruthlessly consolidating his power and undermining them.
Charisma and ideas are not necessarily prerequisites of leaders (though are helpful), being a good organiser and plotter can be good for leadership potential too. Or at least lead someone to think they need not give up on leadership dreams just because they lack the former.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Increase council tax bands? What does that mean - create new higher bands above existing ones?
Some form of wealth tax - well Reeves did this. But only for private sector retirees by dragging DC pensions into the IHT regime. This will make more estates liable for IHT and those already liable will pay more.
Yes re council tax bands - they need several more higher bands
I think that the pension tax free sum could be reduced or even eliminated
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
I think Starmer always saw it as a more managerial role than it actually is.
I think we should raise the question of whether the Parthenon was constructed using slave labour. Just to mess with them.
If it was, doesn't that strengthen their case? After all we nowadays should want nothing to do with them
No, as the sculptural elements probably weren't.
Malmesbury reinforces my point. Until Greece makes at least token reparations for Athenian militarism, we should politely decline to return them to their proto-imperialist setting.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. You don't need to be a technical wizard or go to that one dodgy pub in town with the foreign satellite service. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
What is the Saturday 3pm blackout? Not being a football fan, I don't know.
No UK tv rights holder can broadcast live coverage of matches that kick off at 3pm on Saturday (except under the odd exception). But the rights packages sold to foreign broadcasters do include those matches.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
I think Starmer always saw it as a more managerial role than it actually is.
After Boris, Truss and Sunak the Country desperately needs competent management
Like a big Oil Tanker it will take time to turn around.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
He was pretty well suited to the job description as it looked in early 2020; clean up the party, allow the next generation to grow up, lose with dignity in 2023, allow his successor to the the next Labour PM.
It's only because of all of that that he got a sniff of the Premiership. And quite often, that shows. Basically, the political equivalent of Tony Pigott playing one Test for England because he was just about the only uninjured England-qualified bowler in New Zealand during a mid-tour injury crisis.
(To be fair, you can say the same for Kemi Badenoch.)
"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
I refer the right honourable gentleman to a basic principle of international law (well it should be): “no takesy-backsies”.
We acquired them perfectly lawfully at the time, so they are now ours. We acquired some other bits of the museum less lawfully, but they are ours now too. Unless we want to say that every museum in the western world has to send everything back to where it came from.
Blimey, even the Telegraph are saying Sunak/the Tories bequeathed Starmer/Labour a truly dire inheritance than first thought.
Sir Jim Ratcliffe has a lot in common with his fellow knight of the realm Sir Keir Starmer. Both men succeeded wildly unpopular predecessors, both discovered their inheritance was an even more stultifying mess than their worst assumptions predicted and both talked at length of tough times ahead, of difficult decisions needing to be taken to right the ship. But more to the point, thanks to the decisions they have taken to confront the issues they were bequeathed, both have seen their honeymoon periods disappear faster than Gregg Wallace’s television career.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
I know that's a joke, but are you sure we have a working gunboat that could do the job?
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
Not enough of a deterrence . Concede that they would look better in the original setting, and go and take it.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
[Gerard Butler] "Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!" [kicks Casino down the well]
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
The public don't care about many things, doesn't mean they might not be important .
Now, I don't really care on this one either, but that's also why I think we should get something in return for giving them back, since I don't see it as a moral outrage to be addressed, and I doubt Greece or anyone else will treat us any differently out of gratitude if we do just given them back.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
I know that's a joke, but are you sure we have a working gunboat that could do the job?
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
Very good. Were it not for the word 'fuck', I'd be convinced that your account had been hijacked by HYUFD.
I assumed he'd wait until his last day in office to do it, but I guess he wanted to move ahead of sentencing in case his precious little boy had to spend a few months inside.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
He was pretty well suited to the job description as it looked in early 2020; clean up the party, allow the next generation to grow up, lose with dignity in 2023, allow his successor to the the next Labour PM.
It's only because of all of that that he got a sniff of the Premiership. And quite often, that shows. Basically, the political equivalent of Tony Pigott playing one Test for England because he was just about the only uninjured England-qualified bowler in New Zealand during a mid-tour injury crisis.
(To be fair, you can say the same for Kemi Badenoch.)
Bizarre thing, or at least to me, about Pigott, was his name was pronounced Pye-gott
There were some others like him at the time who played test cricket for being in the right place at the right time. Mike Whitney and Eteshamuddin spring to mind. The latter being a man who’s batting prowess was described as modest.
I have no objections to their return or even some form of compromise
I replied to @Taz at the end of the last thread and repeat my comments here
In all honesty I did not expect a Starmer led government to sideline a Blair style government and go left with policies that seriously undermine business in favour of unions and public sector, nor declare war on pensioners, farmers, small businesses and even increase students fees
As I have commented previously the '14 year mantra' worked but the real problems we have today came from covid and the war in Ukraine which has seen most governments fall that were in office during that period
There is no doubt the conservatives were out of time, and whilst I did not expect great things from Starmer his performance together with Reeves since winning the election has been abject and is reflecting in public opinion and business surveys, not least with today's announcement in the fall in consumer spending in November
Furthermore, the IFS publicly rebuked both main parties before the election that they were not acknowledging the state of the economy, and whilst there was a deficit left to Labour nearly half of the 22 billion they repeat daily was a result from the above inflation pay rises to the doctors and train drivers
Starmer, like Sunak, is not a politician and no matter how many relaunches he comes up with, the electorate will not change their mind on him unless and until the changes he promises become apparent and as he says he wants 10 years his problem is the electorate want to see results far quicker
I would just say I do respect the Labour supporters on here who do acknowledge this has been an unexpected poor start and are not in denial, but hope that in time Starmer will be seen more favourable
However, in a few weeks everything is thrown up in the air with the arrival of Trump with unforceable consequences, not just for the UK, but all around the world
When I woke this morning to the news Biden had pardoned his son I just felt a great sense of despair for the US and integrity in politics which has all but vanished, and we will all lose from it
This goes back to my "national hangover" thing. A lot of the problems stinking the nation out at the moment have roots going back years, and many of them are of the sort where it's pretty clear that the previous government didn't have much idea themselves how bad things were. See the huge adjustments to the immigration stats announced last week. Or the billions spent hiding migrants in hotels because the government didn't have a clue what to do with them. Or the pretence that they could get away without public sector pay rises. Et cetera.
Yes, this government has got to show progress on lots of issues by about 4 years' time. Not complete success, but meaningful progress. But people throwing their toys out of the pram because it's not all solved in 4 months... sheesh. Some of what we're experiencing is a hangover, and hangovers aren't meant to be fun.
It may be what the public wants. But I want doesn't get, as my dear grandmother used to say.
I think the budget has defined Labour as one that will have a negative effect on growth, keep interest rates higher for longer, and see rises in unemployment, especially in care and hospitality as the NI increases take effect
We'll see.
If you want to meaningfully reduce immigration without destroying public services - and most people do - then you have to find ways of pushing UK citizens into areas like the NHS, where there are close to one million vacancies that need filling. Making it more expensive to employ low-skilled people in the private sector is one option. In fact, I can't really think of many others. Can you? What's more, we have a significant private sector productivity problem in the UK. How might you encourage that to change? Make it more expensive to hire low-skilled staff. As for interest rates, well let's see. As things stand, UK gilt yields have been falling over the last few weeks. They closed today lower than they were on 1st July.
Starmer and Reeves are terrible politicians and they have made some terrible mistakes, but it is far, far too early to write them off. Here's a fun fact: for this Christmas and the next one and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that there will be a Labour government in office led by Sir Keir. We have forgotten completely what it is like to have that level of stability. It hasn't happened for a generation.
Re your last paragraph the same could be said about Johnson in 2019 but we know how that turned our
The tests facing Starmer are the May 25 locals, the May 26 Scottish and Welsh devolved elections, and then the next election is very much coming into focus
His problem is the terrible budget and I have said previously that my budget would have been very much pro business and growth
Increase taxes to 25% and eliminate NI for all those working
Increase tax allowance to £15,000
Abolish triple lock and change to inflation plus 1%
Reduce corporation tax to 20%
Increase council tax bands
Increase fuel duty
Some form of wealth tax
Yep - Johnson shot himself in the foot and made it impossible for Tory MPs to support him. My guess is that Starmer will not behave as recklessly, but I could be wrong. In May 2026 we will not even be half way through this Parliament. In fact, it won't even be two years' old.
I really don't know why Starmer wanted to be Party Leader. He isn't leadership material; he's top admin bloke, CEO maybe, but not the chap with the ideas and the charisma. For all his faults Corbyn was closer to that.
I think Starmer always saw it as a more managerial role than it actually is.
"I want you all to have a good dream tonight and bring it in with you tomorrow."
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
The public don't care about many things, doesn't mean they might not be important .
Now, I don't really care on this one either, but that's also why I think we should get something in return for giving them back, since I don't see it as a moral outrage to be addressed, and I doubt Greece of anyone else will treat us any differently out of gratitude if we do just given them back.
It's transactional - what's it worth to them?
Not a bad idea. Some negotiation would be sensible.
I don't really care either, but the high emotion of those on both sides, who do, is quite entertaining.
The Marbles question is rather older than the decolonisation arguments, so it may have less bearing on other treasures than people think.
It's basically about high-Victorian Britain being sure it was Ancient Greece, and then a humdrum argument between twentieth-century European allies that began 80 years ago.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
The public don't care about many things, doesn't mean they might not be important .
Now, I don't really care on this one either, but that's also why I think we should get something in return for giving them back, since I don't see it as a moral outrage to be addressed, and I doubt Greece of anyone else will treat us any differently out of gratitude if we do just given them back.
It's transactional - what's it worth to them?
Not a bad idea. Some negotiation would be sensible.
I don't really care either, but the high emotion of those on both sides, who do, is quite entertaining.
Emotive arguments which don't really matter can be entertaining indeed. It would be amusing to see the government take a new approach and cut through the high minded claims and what if arguments and just go 'Look, just give me a number for a lease and let's be done with it'. An outrage to pay for the return, some might say, but it'll be much quicker to be pragmatic about it.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
Denial.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Not really. Any leading question affects the answer.
I think I'd agree. The decision is understandable but wrong. You - if you're a Dem - have to say both those things. If you omit the understandable you look like you're lacking in common empathy for a good man and doing Trump's work for him. If you omit wrong you're giving away too much moral high ground and contributing to the slide away from civilised norms, which also helps Trump.
I think I'd agree. The decision is understandable but wrong. You - if you're a Dem - have to say both those things. If you omit the understandable you look like you're lacking in common empathy for a good man and doing Trump's work for him. If you omit wrong you're giving away too much moral high ground and contributing to the slide away from civilised norms, which also helps Trump.
I did point out in 2020 (edit) when Biden was running in the primaries that the influence-peddling by his son should have made Biden ineligible to be Democratic candidate. Now we've got this shit, which will justify a ton of pardons and antidemocratic bollocks from Trump, on top of Biden screwing up the Dem's chances of beating Trump this year. Totally predictable, and yes 'understandable'. But isn't it a few years too late for Democrats to be condemning this now?
Would any other Dem have beaten Trump in 2020 though?
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
We didn't nick enough.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
I think I'd agree. The decision is understandable but wrong. You - if you're a Dem - have to say both those things. If you omit the understandable you look like you're lacking in common empathy for a good man and doing Trump's work for him. If you omit wrong you're giving away too much moral high ground and contributing to the slide away from civilised norms, which also helps Trump.
I think I'd agree. The decision is understandable but wrong. You - if you're a Dem - have to say both those things. If you omit the understandable you look like you're lacking in common empathy for a good man and doing Trump's work for him. If you omit wrong you're giving away too much moral high ground and contributing to the slide away from civilised norms, which also helps Trump.
I did point out in 2020 (edit) when Biden was running in the primaries that the influence-peddling by his son should have made Biden ineligible to be Democratic candidate. Now we've got this shit, which will justify a ton of pardons and antidemocratic bollocks from Trump, on top of Biden screwing up the Dem's chances of beating Trump this year. Totally predictable, and yes 'understandable'. But isn't it a few years too late for Democrats to be condemning this now?
Would any other Dem have beaten Trump in 2020 though?
Probably not, in any realistic scenario where they might have got the nomination.
You can't just swap a name in, other than in fantasyland.
"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
It may even be true. I've seen the Elgin Marbles but I've no idea of their significance or where precisely they came from, even if I've heard the QI chant, They say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdvD4Fhc_K8
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
...in a late afternoon filing entered the day before Thanksgiving, Stanford misinformation expert Jeff Hancock admits he uses ChatGPT to draft his $600-an-hour expert opinions, and says you should believe them anyway despite containing links to nonexistent sources.. https://x.com/_cingraham/status/1862144092517626242
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
Quinquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir, Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine, With a cargo of ivory, And apes and peacocks, Sandalwood, cedarwood, and sweet white wine.
Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack, Butting through the channel in the mad March days, With a cargo of Tyne coal, Road-rails, pig-lead, Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.
You can see the reason the Nineveh stuff stood out.
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
Isn't the argument that have the Premier League live at 3pm would reduce lower-league gates (rather than gates for the Premier League) as people would stay at home to watch Man United rather than Stockport, Liverpool rather than Tranmere, and Forest rather than Mansfield etc etc?
Given it is trivial to find a restream on tinterweb now, its an irrelevant argument now. Also, if I remember correctly particularly non-league attendances are doing well after COVID.
Internet streams are notoriously time-lagged, unreliable and often of poor quality. I do realise there are illegal firesticks around although they are being cracked down on.
Except they really aren't these days. As for the firestick crackdown, its like saying they are cracking down on drug dealers, they rarely get anywhere near the people who behind the IPTV services. And even when they do find and seize the servers, its whack a mole, just like raiding a trap house.
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Even if this were true, they would still need to fix streaming's fatal flaw: the lag. It is so far behind live that it a) ruins the group experience of watching sport and b) makes betting on sport impossible.
That is why I said service, as Sky / TNT can certainly do that job (although they are increasingly pushing their own IP based streaming services rather than via a dish), and live broadcasts with commentators go out for every game already, just not to the UK.
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
The lag is a real problem for streaming. Anyone with LiveSports on their phone can 'see' the goals before they are shown on screen. It ruins the group experience (i.e. in the pub) and indeed makes streaming useless for betting. Hence why I have stuck with cable and avoided the likes of Sky Glass.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Is that actually a good analogy for how we acquired them? And are the Crown Jewels, made to represent something, analogous to some hunks of stone carved thousands of years before the modern Greek state even existed?
"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
It may even be true. I've seen the Elgin Marbles but I've no idea of their significance or where precisely they came from, even if I've heard the QI chant, They say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdvD4Fhc_K8
I haven't seen your link, but the Greeks were basically interested from around the time they started fighting, which was.about ten years after Elgin took them.
By the eighteenth century they were just Ottoman subjects, but by 1820 Classical ideas were coursing back to the mainland again from the Greek elite.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Is that actually a good analogy for how we acquired them? And are the Crown Jewels, made to represent something, analogous to some hunks of stone carved thousands of years before the modern Greek state even existed?
So if a Greek soldier had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a hypothetical Nazi invasion, and they were currently on display in Athens, you would be perfectly OK with that?
Be all the Bruisers culled from all St. Giles’, That Art and Nature may compare their styles; While brawny brutes in stupid wonder stare, And marvel at his Lordship’s ’stone shop’ there.
This is the abiding problem of the British Museum. Still full of brawny brutes after 200 years.
The key point, continuing on from below, ofcourse is that the Greek elite were already interested in them by the late eighteenth century.
Time to give them back, I think.
I really don't care much either way but if that is the "key" point it seems even less important than the presenter of a cooking show living his life 50 years out of date.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
We didn't nick enough.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
Well that's you and fair enough. But the sort of Britain I feel a part of, the one that has me slipping off into a dreamless 8 hours every night, is one that would not only return those marbles but would do it with a smile.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Is that actually a good analogy for how we acquired them? And are the Crown Jewels, made to represent something, analogous to some hunks of stone carved thousands of years before the modern Greek state even existed?
So if a Greek soldier had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a hypothetical Nazi invasion, and they were currently on display in Athens, you would be perfectly OK with that?
As I asked, is that really a good analogy? The Crown Jewels were created by an existent state to represent something central to the monarchy, and therefore the country. The Elgin/Parthenon Marbles are chunks of badly-damaged stone created by a state a couple of Millennia ago: if they had never been taken, the Greeks probably would not care much for them. Whereas the Crown Jewels symbolise something. Perhaps.
The key point, continuing on from below, ofcourse is that the Greek elite were already interested in them by the late eighteenth century.
Time to give them back, I think.
I really don't care much either way but if that is the "key" point it seems even less important than the presenter of a cooking show living his life 50 years out of date.
Well, it was the British Museum that really claimed that was a key point for decades, by claiming that the Greeks weren't interested in them in 1807..
It's the sort of bias that has undermined the case over the years, rather hiding the damage from the BM's cleaning in the 1930's.
Greece would have to buy them back to acknowledge that they were bought from the technical “owners” at the time. This would help resist the inevitable follow on demands from all and sundry to return x and y.
It does not have to be an eye-watering sum but it needs to be established and accepted by Greece that they are legally owned by the BM.
Maybe throw in free entry to the Parthenon for British passport holders.
They aren’t actually that specitacular to see in the flesh (compared to other objects in the BM in my personal view) and would be better in context with the other parts - for example the Benin Bronzes should ideally all be seen together to understand the whole scale and majesty however I think bits that have been returned relatively recently have disappeared from display now so a good reason to have ironclad conditions on any future returns.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
Denial.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Do we know what national treasures Elon and Clarkson think?
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
We didn't nick enough.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
"enhance.Thurrock.beautifully" - what3words for the arse end of nowhere....
Putin to reject Trump’s opening peace offer, says Russian tycoon
Well duh. Has anyone ever in a negotiation accepted the first offer?
(Actually, I pretty much did once when the solicitor for the wife claimed she wanted £700k as her share of his husband's business. It was worth somewhere north of £7m. Once we had stopped laughing we pretended to haggle for a while so they didn't catch on.)
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
I don’t think Ottoman rule is analogous to a hypothetical German occupation of the UK. Greece was a part of the Ottoman state from the 15th to the 19th centuries, and was recognised as such by other powers. Elgin’s acquisition of the marbles was legal, according to the law as it stood at the time.
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
Denial.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Not really. Any leading question affects the answer.
But even if I didn't I still wouldn't agree.
I'm also quite amused by one of our staunch Brexit defenders making the argument that British public opinion can't be trusted, as it's too easily led.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
We didn't nick enough.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
I think there's actually an argument for spreading treasures (man-made and natural) around the world, where possible. Imagine a disaster where (say) Easter Island is destroyed. Having one or two Easter Island heads on the other side of the world would save those examples for future generations. Ditto Terracotta Warriors, and many other things. Also animals: species that are rare should be spread around in various zoos and parks for preservation purposes (a little like the global seed bank in Svalbard).
Obviously this only works where there are many of something in a small geographical location, and for small items (I cannot see the pyramids being moved...) but these items also have immense cultural soft power as well. My son went through a period of being fascinated by the Terracotta Warriors (enough to make a long trip to visit a tiny museum in Dorchester), and he also became a fan of China as a result.
That would also involve us moving a handful of our typical national treasures as well. How about cricket? Damn, we've already given that. Rugby? Bugger. Tea? We stole that in the first place...
Greece would have to buy them back to acknowledge that they were bought from the technical “owners” at the time. This would help resist the inevitable follow on demands from all and sundry to return x and y.
It does not have to be an eye-watering sum but it needs to be established and accepted by Greece that they are legally owned by the BM.
Maybe throw in free entry to the Parthenon for British passport holders.
They aren’t actually that specitacular to see in the flesh (compared to other objects in the BM in my personal view) and would be better in context with the other parts - for example the Benin Bronzes should ideally all be seen together to understand the whole scale and majesty however I think bits that have been returned relatively recently have disappeared from display now so a good reason to have ironclad conditions on any future returns.
That’s a good shout. Everyone can be a winner. A friendly Greek vote on some EU matter would be handy too.
"The Greeks weren't interested in them" is rather a loaded point redolent of old BM propaganda lines, from a few decades ago.
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
Yes, they became very proud of the imperialist, colonialist, racist, thieving legacy of Athens and her empire.
Oh god. Starmer’s gonna do it. Isn’t he. Like the Chagos
And once the principle is established the entire British Museum will be dispersed and dismantled
It’s not his call.
It’s down to the British Museum led by that fine patriot George Osborne.
But Parliament does have to change the relevant legislation. So back to Westminster. Maybe a Private Member's Bill? But no, someone is bound to talk it out.
Isn’t the workaround we give the marbles to Greece on loan for 999 years so no act is required?
The workaround is to tell the Greeks to fuck off and send a gunboat to shell Sparta for them having the impertinence to ask.
On the grounds that the marbles might disappear soon, I made the trek from the Flatlands earlier in the year to see them, as I'd never been.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
We didn't nick enough.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
"enhance.Thurrock.beautifully" - what3words for the arse end of nowhere....
///enhance.shamrock.beautifully happens to be in the middle of the Amazon. It'd have bene great if it was in Ireland.
As it happens, our house (or a part thereof) has a brilliantly apt w3w address, which I cannot give without telling everyone exactly where I live...
Leading question, and they shouldn't be returned on a matter of principle as this is the tip of the spear for things like decolonisation and geopolitical cuckoldery.
Greeks will live.
The public have spoken - and they don't care.
Leading question
Denial.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Do we know what national treasures Elon and Clarkson think?
Musk would go nuts. He'd call Starmer a cuck and a wimp and a beta if he did a deal on the elgins.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
I suppose a strictly hypothetical flip side would be if, in late 1940 or 1941, Britain had fallen to Naziism, and a Greek Army officer, stationed in Blighty due to the Greeks effectivley joining the Allies in late 1940 with the Italian invasion, had "rescued" the Crown Jewels from a bombed out Tower of London, and he surreptiously takes them back to Greece to be "looked after".
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
Has anyone mentioned to the Turks that the Serpant Column should go back. Arguably a bigger part of Greek history.
Comments
The heritage at Risk Register makes fairly sobering reading.
Just to mess with them.
That is, Pericles stole the Treasury of the Athenian League and turned it into the Athenian Empire. Allies became subjects.
He used the money to rebuild Athens, and the Acropolis in particular. To get himself re-elected as Athenian leader.
The result of Athens becoming an imperial state was to kick off a war with Sparta. Which ultimately resulted in Athens being defeated.
So the marbles were paid for with stolen money as a part of a self aggrandising populist regime that ultimate created imperial overstretch and collapse. Oh and the construction of the Parthenon included huge amounts of slave labour. Including some from the Greek islands forced into the Athenian Empire, who rebelled.
The Marbles were the glorification of racist, imperialist colonialists, using stolen money and slave labour.
With the blackout seen as being increasingly out of date, senior figures in football have said it is unlikely to survive beyond the 2028-29 season
https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/saturday-3pm-blackout-under-threat-tv-deals-r2jlzrswm
About time. Every other major sport has realised that the black out doesn't reduce attendance as you can't replicate the feel of a live game, but with it shown in every other country it is trivial to find a restream of it on the tinterweb.
How does it work with Irish rules- does a government have to have an absolute majority to take office? After seeing what happened to the Greens this time, it's a helluva gamble for any third party joining the government.
(But credit where it's due- we have an incumbent government surviving an election- the only one in 2024?)
Some form of wealth tax - well Reeves did this. But only for private sector retirees by dragging DC pensions into the IHT regime. This will make more estates liable for IHT and those already liable will pay more.
Charisma and ideas are not necessarily prerequisites of leaders (though are helpful), being a good organiser and plotter can be good for leadership potential too. Or at least lead someone to think they need not give up on leadership dreams just because they lack the former.
https://x.com/jaheale/status/1863630260215894038
I think that the pension tax free sum could be reduced or even eliminated
Malmesbury reinforces my point. Until Greece makes at least token reparations for Athenian militarism, we should politely decline to return them to their proto-imperialist setting.
Huntin' with Hunter ?
> Notable figure and family name
> Controversial
> Felony convictions
We found our 2028 Democratic candidate everyone..
https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1863624833273151586
What you have to do is like Spotify, make a great app / service at a reasonable price that provides all the games and nobody bothers with the dodgy stuff.
Like a big Oil Tanker it will take time to turn around.
He will. Judge him in 2 years time.
I have some sympathy with him there. Those sorts of events are always toe-curlingly awkward.
It's only because of all of that that he got a sniff of the Premiership. And quite often, that shows. Basically, the political equivalent of Tony Pigott playing one Test for England because he was just about the only uninjured England-qualified bowler in New Zealand during a mid-tour injury crisis.
(To be fair, you can say the same for Kemi Badenoch.)
The rebel mainlanders weren't particularly bothered at first, but the most educated and ancient kinds Greek communities, who were basically administrators, bankers and diplomats for the Ottomans from the Asia Minor coast, very much were. They later played a key role in the state, and many moved to Greece.
Greeks will live.
We acquired them perfectly lawfully at the time, so they are now ours. We acquired some other bits of the museum less lawfully, but they are ours now too. Unless we want to say that every museum in the western world has to send everything back to where it came from.
Sir Jim Ratcliffe has a lot in common with his fellow knight of the realm Sir Keir Starmer. Both men succeeded wildly unpopular predecessors, both discovered their inheritance was an even more stultifying mess than their worst assumptions predicted and both talked at length of tough times ahead, of difficult decisions needing to be taken to right the ship. But more to the point, thanks to the decisions they have taken to confront the issues they were bequeathed, both have seen their honeymoon periods disappear faster than Gregg Wallace’s television career.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/12/02/sir-jim-ratcliffe-man-utd-fans-ticket-price-rise-protest/
A glorified hostel with capacity for 300 for 700 million quid.
"Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!"
[kicks Casino down the well]
Democratic senator blasts Biden’s pardon of son
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5017720-biden-grants-hunter-pardon/
Now, I don't really care on this one either, but that's also why I think we should get something in return for giving them back, since I don't see it as a moral outrage to be addressed, and I doubt Greece or anyone else will treat us any differently out of gratitude if we do just given them back.
It's transactional - what's it worth to them?
There were some others like him at the time who played test cricket for being in the right place at the right time. Mike Whitney and Eteshamuddin spring to mind. The latter being a man who’s batting prowess was described as modest.
Maybe then I'll think about them having them for a bit.
A simple question: why do the marbles matter? Why do these chunks of carved stone, heavily defaced by man and time, matter any more than any other hunk of marble? Why do we, and the Greeks, treasure them? They're not particularly good, and their context will never be returned as they will never be put back into place. Why would good copies not be good enough for either, or both, of us?
Some negotiation would be sensible.
I don't really care either, but the high emotion of those on both sides, who do, is quite entertaining.
It's basically about high-Victorian Britain being sure it was Ancient Greece, and then a humdrum argument between twentieth-century
European allies that began 80 years ago.
Polling is quite consistent on this, over time.
Not bad, but I did prefer the artifacts from Nineveh. Just as well we nicked those!
Also the lag factor might be a big issue for you, but in the US, most of the major sports have the ability to buy a legitimate season pass of all or nearly all the games via an app. That doesn't seem to bother people there.
But even if I didn't I still wouldn't agree.
The real question should be: what other artefacts should The British Museum demand other countries surrender to us from around the world?
I quite fancy the Statue of Liberty. Because it would really annoy the French and the Americans have fucked it anyway.
It'd look great up the Thames, and enhance Thurrock beautifully.
You can't just swap a name in, other than in fantasyland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdvD4Fhc_K8
For a bit of fun, let's just envisage the fall of Britain means no Nazi invasion of Greece. However, Japan does attack Pearl Harbor, so the US does enter the War, and eventually, Germany is defeated, meaning the liberation of western Europe. So, after ze War, Britain politely asks Greece to hand the Crown Jewels back.
But the Greeks retort, saying "Fuck off! The Jewels look splendid in the Museum of Antiquities in Athens!". Would we in Blighty tolerate that?
I think not!
(Well, last week, actually.)
...in a late afternoon filing entered the day before Thanksgiving, Stanford misinformation expert Jeff Hancock admits he uses ChatGPT to draft his $600-an-hour expert opinions, and says you should believe them anyway despite containing links to nonexistent sources..
https://x.com/_cingraham/status/1862144092517626242
Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine,
With a cargo of ivory,
And apes and peacocks,
Sandalwood, cedarwood, and sweet white wine.
Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack,
Butting through the channel in the mad March days,
With a cargo of Tyne coal,
Road-rails, pig-lead,
Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.
You can see the reason the Nineveh stuff stood out.
By the eighteenth century they were just Ottoman subjects, but by 1820 Classical ideas were coursing back to the mainland again from the Greek elite.
Time to give them back, I think.
https://hellopoetry.com/poem/4299/the-curse-of-minerva/
Here's a sample:
Be all the Bruisers culled from all St. Giles’,
That Art and Nature may compare their styles;
While brawny brutes in stupid wonder stare,
And marvel at his Lordship’s ’stone shop’ there.
This is the abiding problem of the British Museum. Still full of brawny brutes after 200 years.
So again I ask: why do the marbles matter?
Putin to reject Trump’s opening peace offer, says Russian tycoon
It's the sort of bias that has undermined the case over the years, rather hiding the damage from the
BM's cleaning in the 1930's.
It does not have to be an eye-watering sum but it needs to be established and accepted by Greece that they are legally owned by the BM.
Maybe throw in free entry to the Parthenon for British passport holders.
They aren’t actually that specitacular to see in the flesh (compared to other objects in the BM in my personal view) and would be better in context with the other parts - for example the Benin Bronzes should ideally all be seen together to understand the whole scale and majesty however I think bits that have been returned relatively recently have disappeared from display now so a good reason to have ironclad conditions on any future returns.
It is all rather an old argument.
(Actually, I pretty much did once when the solicitor for the wife claimed she wanted £700k as her share of his husband's business. It was worth somewhere north of £7m. Once we had stopped laughing we pretended to haggle for a while so they didn't catch on.)
Obviously this only works where there are many of something in a small geographical location, and for small items (I cannot see the pyramids being moved...) but these items also have immense cultural soft power as well. My son went through a period of being fascinated by the Terracotta Warriors (enough to make a long trip to visit a tiny museum in Dorchester), and he also became a fan of China as a result.
That would also involve us moving a handful of our typical national treasures as well. How about cricket? Damn, we've already given that. Rugby? Bugger. Tea? We stole that in the first place...
And are still flogging it as awesome.
As it happens, our house (or a part thereof) has a brilliantly apt w3w address, which I cannot give without telling everyone exactly where I live...
If the Crown Jewels are NOT our equivalent of the Parthenon Marbles, what would be?
Stonehenge? Something else?