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A game changer or a QTWTAIN? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited December 17 in General
A game changer or a QTWTAIN? – politicalbetting.com

Will Elon Musk give Nigel Farage $100m to make him PM?The Tesla boss, who used his immense fortune to help Donald Trump’s campaign, is turning his attention to Britain ??https://t.co/efMWprVZRl

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Probably not.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    A couple of TwiX advertising experts to repeat the Brexit triumph will suffice and the Electoral Commission won't blink at their £200,000 salary.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Is Musk any more pernicious to democracy than Murdoch?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    The Prince Charles Cinema has started its Christmas films series...


    https://princecharlescinema.com/film/114222/die-hard-is-a-christmas-movie/


    Although if the cinema is not to your taste and you prefer a traditional pantomime:-

    https://www.colabtheatre.co.uk/whatson?rdt_cid=4940459070609411292
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    The drug addled Space Clown giving money to Roderick Spode?

    My money would be on him keeling over from cirrhosis before the GE.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Is Musk any more pernicious to democracy than Murdoch?

    Time will tell.
    But he's made an impressive start.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920
    Foxy said:

    The drug addled Space Clown giving money to Roderick Spode?

    My money would be on him keeling over from cirrhosis before the GE.

    Which one?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    ClippP said:

    Foxy said:

    The drug addled Space Clown giving money to Roderick Spode?

    My money would be on him keeling over from cirrhosis before the GE.

    Which one?
    Possibly both, if the Ketamine doesn't get Musk first.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    edited December 2
    How China will make or break Trump’s bromance with Elon Musk
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/02/donald-trump-elon-musk-bromance-china-broker-deal-kissinger/ (£££)

    Tesla builds half its cars in China. Tesla and SpaceX depend on China for Li batteries and other components. Musk could really do without a trade war.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    edited December 2
    ...
    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    They weren't dubious court cases.

    I would add more but the flags for my Trump-critical posts have been coming in too thick and too fast over the last 48 hours.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited December 2
    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    What I don't understand is it is really stupid politics, in at least wait and see what he gets. He might well have gotten a slap on the wrist, but if they had gone hard, then he would have had cover to use the pardon to say this is way OTT.

    But every outgoing Presidents pardons some right old dodgy f##kers (normally people who have donated a lot of money) and yet the system prevails.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited December 2

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    Is Musk any more pernicious to democracy than Murdoch?

    Absolutely.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    Why the Democratss were right to drop Biden: #28 in a series...
  • ...

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    They weren't dubious court cases.

    I would add more but the flags for my Trump-critical posts have been coming in too thick and too fast over the last 48 hours.
    Don\t worry, anyone misusing the flag button will automatically be banned.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    Why the Democratss were right to drop Biden: #28 in a series...
    Only #28?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    “From a human point of view”

    Listen to yourself

    Even the NYT is expressing shame and shock

    “Mr. Biden’s decision to use the extraordinary power of executive clemency to wipe out his son’s convictions on gun and tax charges came despite repeated statements by him and his aides that he would not do so. Just this past summer, after his son was convicted at trial, the president rejected the idea of a pardon and said that “I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process.” The statement he issued on Sunday night made clear he did not accept the outcome or respect the process”
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    I love twitter. It pumps me full of crazy shit but you know what, I am a grown up and able to read critically media of all types including X, the FT, and An Phoblacht.
  • FPT
    ydoethur said:

    Ok, from yesterday, but this is *really* funny:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Speaking of predictions, remember how self-drive cars would never happen? @JosiasJessop?

    "Uber and Lyft drivers say Waymo's robotaxis are hurting their earnings in Phoenix and LA"

    https://archive.is/2024.11.29-132456/https://www.businessinsider.com/waymo-robotaxis-competing-uber-lyft-drivers-phoenix-los-angeles-price-2024-11#selection-1465.0-1465.88

    It's taken longer than many (including me) predicted, but the prediction IS now coming true

    When have I ever said "they would never happen"? Indeed, I hoped (and hope) they will happen, as it would be rather neat for me.

    But these geofenced robotaxis are rather limited compared to what you were claiming.

    Well over ten years have passed, and lorry drivers still exist. In fact, there's no indication they're going away.

    You were wrong. Own it.
    I wasn't wrong, but nor were you. We were both half right. Self driving came later than I predicted and earlier than you did.

    However, where I was entirely right is in machine translation, which -IIRC - you said was basically impossible for machines to truly master. lol

    We now have translators which are literal Babel fish except arguably better
    IIRC, you stated that in ten years, there would be no lorry drivers. You compounded that by saying that it was pointless training to be a lorry driver, as the jobs would go. Those 'predictions' were well over ten years ago.

    And again, show where I said translation was 'basically impossible for machines to truly master'. Go on. Because I'm pretty sure I did not.
    Yeah you did you stupid twat

    Welsh: "Ie, wnest ti, ti'n dwp twp."
    Armenian: "Այո, արեցիր, հիմար ապուշ." (Ayo, arecir, himar apush.)
    Georgian: "ჰო, გააკეთე, შენ სულელი დებილი." (Ho, gaakete, shen suleli debili.)
    Mandarin: "是的,你做了,你这个蠢蛋。" (Shì de, nǐ zuò le, nǐ zhège chǔn dàn.)
    Hebrew: "כן, עשית את זה, טיפש מטומטם." (Ken, asita et ze, tipesh metumtam.)
    How do you know that those are accurate? Though Ydoethur can help with No. 1.
    I just checked: the translations are good
    How did you do that? Ask it?
    Are you really this fucking dim?

    I checked with other, different AI translation devices. eg Google and iTranslate and the like

    Now, maybe they are all conspiring to give us fake translations, even tho they are rival companies with absolutely no cause to do this (quite the opposite), or the translations are good
    Are you really this fucking dim Leon? You checked a translation by computer with another translation by computer?

    The Welsh is meaningless word salad.

    It says 'Affirmative generic, you did small child/sexual partner/intimate friend, stupid stupid.'

    The *actual* translation would be 'siaradoch chi hynna, dyn twp.'

    You will observe exactly one word overlaps.

    The problem with translation features, especially for minority languages, is they translate the words but not the grammar. It's one way in which AI is still a bit rubbish.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    Why the Democratss were right to drop Biden: #28 in a series...
    Hunter's legal travails may be substantial, like a felony conviction for a felon packing a sidearm, but they are mere trifles compared to Tango man's charge sheet.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    I wonder if this is Biden's decision, or if he was steered this way.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited December 2

    I wonder if this is Biden's decision, or if he was steered this way.

    Dr Jill.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, from yesterday, but this is *really* funny:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Speaking of predictions, remember how self-drive cars would never happen? @JosiasJessop?

    "Uber and Lyft drivers say Waymo's robotaxis are hurting their earnings in Phoenix and LA"

    https://archive.is/2024.11.29-132456/https://www.businessinsider.com/waymo-robotaxis-competing-uber-lyft-drivers-phoenix-los-angeles-price-2024-11#selection-1465.0-1465.88

    It's taken longer than many (including me) predicted, but the prediction IS now coming true

    When have I ever said "they would never happen"? Indeed, I hoped (and hope) they will happen, as it would be rather neat for me.

    But these geofenced robotaxis are rather limited compared to what you were claiming.

    Well over ten years have passed, and lorry drivers still exist. In fact, there's no indication they're going away.

    You were wrong. Own it.
    I wasn't wrong, but nor were you. We were both half right. Self driving came later than I predicted and earlier than you did.

    However, where I was entirely right is in machine translation, which -IIRC - you said was basically impossible for machines to truly master. lol

    We now have translators which are literal Babel fish except arguably better
    IIRC, you stated that in ten years, there would be no lorry drivers. You compounded that by saying that it was pointless training to be a lorry driver, as the jobs would go. Those 'predictions' were well over ten years ago.

    And again, show where I said translation was 'basically impossible for machines to truly master'. Go on. Because I'm pretty sure I did not.
    Yeah you did you stupid twat

    Welsh: "Ie, wnest ti, ti'n dwp twp."
    Armenian: "Այո, արեցիր, հիմար ապուշ." (Ayo, arecir, himar apush.)
    Georgian: "ჰო, გააკეთე, შენ სულელი დებილი." (Ho, gaakete, shen suleli debili.)
    Mandarin: "是的,你做了,你这个蠢蛋。" (Shì de, nǐ zuò le, nǐ zhège chǔn dàn.)
    Hebrew: "כן, עשית את זה, טיפש מטומטם." (Ken, asita et ze, tipesh metumtam.)
    How do you know that those are accurate? Though Ydoethur can help with No. 1.
    I just checked: the translations are good
    How did you do that? Ask it?
    Are you really this fucking dim?

    I checked with other, different AI translation devices. eg Google and iTranslate and the like

    Now, maybe they are all conspiring to give us fake translations, even tho they are rival companies with absolutely no cause to do this (quite the opposite), or the translations are good
    Are you really this fucking dim Leon? You checked a translation by computer with another translation by computer?

    The Welsh is meaningless word salad.

    It says 'Affirmative generic, you did small child/sexual partner/intimate friend, stupid stupid.'

    The *actual* translation would be 'siaradoch chi hynna, dyn twp.'

    You will observe exactly one word overlaps.

    The problem with translation features, especially for minority languages, is they translate the words but not the grammar. It's one way in which AI is still a bit rubbish.
    That was funny, and I was hoping the good doctor would respond. :)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    edited December 2

    I wonder if this is Biden's decision, or if he was steered this way.

    He's a father, I suspect he needs no steering, particularly given his tragic family history.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    Why the Democratss were right to drop Biden: #28 in a series...
    Hunter's legal travails may be substantial, like a felony conviction for a felon packing a sidearm, but they are mere trifles compared to Tango man's charge sheet.

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    Why the Democratss were right to drop Biden: #28 in a series...
    Hunter's legal travails may be substantial, like a felony conviction for a felon packing a sidearm, but they are mere trifles compared to Tango man's charge sheet.
    Perhaps Biden is going to clear the decks - and pardon Trump too.

    Would be very funny after all the outrage over Hunter!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,778
    It could conceivably result in another election in which the vote on the right was split more or less evenly between two parties. We know what that means under First Past The Post.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    edited December 2

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    Ok, from yesterday, but this is *really* funny:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Speaking of predictions, remember how self-drive cars would never happen? @JosiasJessop?

    "Uber and Lyft drivers say Waymo's robotaxis are hurting their earnings in Phoenix and LA"

    https://archive.is/2024.11.29-132456/https://www.businessinsider.com/waymo-robotaxis-competing-uber-lyft-drivers-phoenix-los-angeles-price-2024-11#selection-1465.0-1465.88

    It's taken longer than many (including me) predicted, but the prediction IS now coming true

    When have I ever said "they would never happen"? Indeed, I hoped (and hope) they will happen, as it would be rather neat for me.

    But these geofenced robotaxis are rather limited compared to what you were claiming.

    Well over ten years have passed, and lorry drivers still exist. In fact, there's no indication they're going away.

    You were wrong. Own it.
    I wasn't wrong, but nor were you. We were both half right. Self driving came later than I predicted and earlier than you did.

    However, where I was entirely right is in machine translation, which -IIRC - you said was basically impossible for machines to truly master. lol

    We now have translators which are literal Babel fish except arguably better
    IIRC, you stated that in ten years, there would be no lorry drivers. You compounded that by saying that it was pointless training to be a lorry driver, as the jobs would go. Those 'predictions' were well over ten years ago.

    And again, show where I said translation was 'basically impossible for machines to truly master'. Go on. Because I'm pretty sure I did not.
    Yeah you did you stupid twat

    Welsh: "Ie, wnest ti, ti'n dwp twp."
    Armenian: "Այո, արեցիր, հիմար ապուշ." (Ayo, arecir, himar apush.)
    Georgian: "ჰო, გააკეთე, შენ სულელი დებილი." (Ho, gaakete, shen suleli debili.)
    Mandarin: "是的,你做了,你这个蠢蛋。" (Shì de, nǐ zuò le, nǐ zhège chǔn dàn.)
    Hebrew: "כן, עשית את זה, טיפש מטומטם." (Ken, asita et ze, tipesh metumtam.)
    How do you know that those are accurate? Though Ydoethur can help with No. 1.
    I just checked: the translations are good
    How did you do that? Ask it?
    Are you really this fucking dim?

    I checked with other, different AI translation devices. eg Google and iTranslate and the like

    Now, maybe they are all conspiring to give us fake translations, even tho they are rival companies with absolutely no cause to do this (quite the opposite), or the translations are good
    Are you really this fucking dim Leon? You checked a translation by computer with another translation by computer?

    The Welsh is meaningless word salad.

    It says 'Affirmative generic, you did small child/sexual partner/intimate friend, stupid stupid.'

    The *actual* translation would be 'siaradoch chi hynna, dyn twp.'

    You will observe exactly one word overlaps.

    The problem with translation features, especially for minority languages, is they translate the words but not the grammar. It's one way in which AI is still a bit rubbish.
    That was funny, and I was hoping the good doctor would respond. :)
    I know, low IQ Leon once again wrong, this time on his specialist subject.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited December 2
    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    That quite different from as a father, my son has been charged for something minor that was trumped up...its Stinky McStinky....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    On the one hand it's a free country why shouldn't anyone give any party anything. Plenty (well, a few) UK billionaires could do something similar. On the other, he's furrin, innit. So hands off the motherland, sunshine.

    In general I am a huge Elon fan and most anything he does to shake things up/upset the consensus is fine by me.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    JJ, why are even bothering to reply to such confected outrage?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    Stinky McStinky....

    That is probably intended to prevent Kash Patel spending the next four years 'investigating' him.

    The GOP in Congress has spent the last five years going at it, and come up with nothing, but they have quite clearly not given up.

    I think the decision wrong, as I said in the last thread, but I can understand what motivated it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    For those Trump supporters on here get their knickers wet over Biden's pardon for his son, they should look at this list from 2016:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump

    "Of the pardons and commutations that Trump did grant, the vast majority were to persons to whom Trump had a personal or political connection, or persons for whom executive clemency served a political goal.[2][3][4] A significant number had been convicted of fraud or public corruption.[5] The New York Times reported that during the closing days of the Trump presidency, individuals with access to the administration, such as former administration officials, were soliciting fees to lobby for presidential pardons."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    JJ, why are even bothering to reply to such confected outrage?
    I'm just keeping our resident sex tourist entertained in his faut outrage. ;)
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    More on the problems at Nissan

    It looks like this company, which has always been conservative, has really messed up. In spite of being one of the early adapters of EV's with the hopeless Leaf.

    I remember the old Nissan Recovery Plan in the nineties where they demanded 35% cost reductions from suppliers. I wonder if they will do the same now.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/real-reason-for-nissan-collapse-revealed-as-finance-chief-steps-down/ar-AA1v4NtA?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=b89e67ca4a554097a114bf02286499cf&ei=18
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    How China will make or break Trump’s bromance with Elon Musk
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/02/donald-trump-elon-musk-bromance-china-broker-deal-kissinger/ (£££)

    Tesla builds half its cars in China. Tesla and SpaceX depend on China for Li batteries and other components. Musk could really do without a trade war.

    SpaceX doesn’t *depend* on any components from China.

    That’s a combination of ITAR, and a ruthless policy of insourcing where they can.

    There may be some minor stuff that needs to get substituted.

    Tesla does more insourcing than some companies but would be badly hurt by a trade war.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    Why the Democratss were right to drop Biden: #28 in a series...
    Hunter's legal travails may be substantial, like a felony conviction for a felon packing a sidearm, but they are mere trifles compared to Tango man's charge sheet.
    You have no idea whether that's true.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    That quite different from as a father, my son has been charged for something minor that was trumped up...its Stinky McStinky....

    It was obviously designed to protect Hunter Biden from revenge prosecution by the Trump & Co. A big chunk of the MAGA cult fantasy is built on “Get Hunter”.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited December 2

    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    That quite different from as a father, my son has been charged for something minor that was trumped up...its Stinky McStinky....

    Yes exactly. There are loads of other suspicions and charges floating around Hunter Biden. Some of them worse than the charges made so far

    Now he may be innocent or not. But the president has just made him immune from any prosecution for anything. What if it turns out one of the accusations is incontrovertibly true?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    Leon said:

    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    That quite different from as a father, my son has been charged for something minor that was trumped up...its Stinky McStinky....

    Yes exactly. There are loads of other suspicions and charges floating around Hunter Biden. Some of them worse than the charges made so far

    Now he may be innocent or not. But the president has just made him immune from any prosecution for anything. What if it turns out one of the accusations is incontrovertibly true?
    You mean like the accusations against Trump, many of which are undoubtedly true?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    Leon said:

    What if it turns out one of the accusations is incontrovertibly true?

    He will face the same penalty as the Trump family
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,894
    Hunter can now freely cooperate with investigators. I hope he visits his dad inside.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,394
    Leon said:

    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    That quite different from as a father, my son has been charged for something minor that was trumped up...its Stinky McStinky....

    Yes exactly. There are loads of other suspicions and charges floating around Hunter Biden. Some of them worse than the charges made so far

    Now he may be innocent or not. But the president has just made him immune from any prosecution for anything. What if it turns out one of the accusations is incontrovertibly true?
    If it does turn out one of the accusations is incontrovertibly true, no-one will be more surprised than the MAGA prosecutors, and, well, he will need the pardon.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442

    A couple of TwiX advertising experts to repeat the Brexit triumph will suffice and the Electoral Commission won't blink at their £200,000 salary.

    OK, that's a couple of million pounds. Only 98 million to allocate. Very difficult to spend that much when telly advertising isn't allowed.

    The bandying around of absurd large numbers reminds me of that Dr Evil scene on the first Austin Powers movie.

    (Besides, isn't TwiX advertising a bit rubbish? Hence the difficulty of making the thing turn a profit?)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    So the US president is on the same autocratic level as a Medieval English king and that’s all fine unless republicans do it then it’s evil. Got it
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 279
    Musk is a dangerous narcissist who threatens Global Security. Narcissits rarely get on with one another, so we will have to see how long his leve affair with Trump and Farage continues.

    The Political landscape within the UK would suggest that The Tories have probably more to fear from Musk than Labour, despite his obsessive hatred of Starmer. Narcissits hate anyone who will stand up to them.

    Twitter / X is now basically a glorified "bot and hatred" channel.

    Musk's roots are embedded in the hatred of the South African Apartheid system and whilst Farage is very adept at taking money from despots, Putin is the prime example , he may find this affront and direct attack on UK democracy a step too far given the likeliehood that the Tories will be as forceful in their condemnation as Labour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Taz said:

    More on the problems at Nissan

    It looks like this company, which has always been conservative, has really messed up. In spite of being one of the early adapters of EV's with the hopeless Leaf.

    I remember the old Nissan Recovery Plan in the nineties where they demanded 35% cost reductions from suppliers. I wonder if they will do the same now.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/real-reason-for-nissan-collapse-revealed-as-finance-chief-steps-down/ar-AA1v4NtA?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=b89e67ca4a554097a114bf02286499cf&ei=18

    A number of companies took the wrong message from Tesla’s early successes.

    These included getting people to buy a much more expensive car than they normally would, because it was an EV.

    Then they put off investing in battery factories.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Leon said:

    One thing that shouldn't be missed here, he didn't just pardon Hunter Biden for the gun charge and the tax dodging, he pardoned him against any Federal crime that he may committed over a 10 year period, that period where he was on the board of companies taking massive salaries for doing nothing.

    That quite different from as a father, my son has been charged for something minor that was trumped up...its Stinky McStinky....

    Yes exactly. There are loads of other suspicions and charges floating around Hunter Biden. Some of them worse than the charges made so far

    Now he may be innocent or not. But the president has just made him immune from any prosecution for anything. What if it turns out one of the accusations is incontrovertibly true?
    You mean like the accusations against Trump, many of which are undoubtedly true?
    You mean

    1) the accusations of which he has been convicted in court for?
    2) the accusations that he has been charged with, with legal grade evidence presented?
    3) the accusations which have just been stated?

    With Trump and accusations of crime, there’s so many that you need to be specific…
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,676
    I think Biden may pardon Trump of all federal charges "to wipe the slate clean and let the new President focus on his important job".

    If he does this, will Trump be grateful or offended?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    So the US president is on the same autocratic level as a Medieval English king and that’s all fine unless republicans do it then it’s evil. Got it
    A rather long list of countries invest their president with pardon powers.

    Often with no override or veto by anyone else.

    In the U.K., the sovereigns power to pardon was just used by the government to overturn the judicial process for the Post Office convictions. Because it was clear that the permanent system of government would fight to prevent any other avenue of justice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    DavidL said:

    The collapse of the rule of law in the USA is a troubling thing. Compared to the corruption and dishonesty of the Supreme Court Justices (in any properly regulated system Clarence Thomas would have been disbarred by now) and the failure to hold Trump accountable for a riot at the Capitol the pardoning of Hunter Biden is a peccadillo but it is important because it leads to the charge that each is as bad as the other and that both use the criminal justice system for political ends.

    Some of the allegations against Hunter Biden are deeply serious - far from “peccadillos” - and you’d be embarrassed to use that word if you were aware of them, I think

    However he may well be innocent, of course - the more profound allegations themselves may be politically contrived by Trumpites

    But we will now never know because he’s got a blanket pardon from his demented dad. It’s not a great look for America
  • The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I had 2 accounts.

    Have moved ont to Bluesky but the other remains.
  • Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Largely kids and grannies, isn't it?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    If you are saying that the US Constitution is not fit for purpose it would be impossible to disagree. The Electoral College system is a joke. The fact we still don't have the final figures for the House is absurd (as is the concept of an entire House being up for election every 2 years). The weighting of the Senate is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has far too much power for a democracy and not nearly enough oversight. Those founding fathers didn't know their arses from their elbows and pretending that their political fixes should be hallowed in some way shows the fantasy of the whole thing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    A lot of bots responding to bots. And low-IQ individuals. ;)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114

    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Largely kids and grannies, isn't it?
    Russian ones, yes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    The collapse of the rule of law in the USA is a troubling thing. Compared to the corruption and dishonesty of the Supreme Court Justices (in any properly regulated system Clarence Thomas would have been disbarred by now) and the failure to hold Trump accountable for a riot at the Capitol the pardoning of Hunter Biden is a peccadillo but it is important because it leads to the charge that each is as bad as the other and that both use the criminal justice system for political ends.

    Some of the allegations against Hunter Biden are deeply serious - far from “peccadillos” - and you’d be embarrassed to use that word if you were aware of them, I think

    However he may well be innocent, of course - the more profound allegations themselves may be politically contrived by Trumpites

    But we will now never know because he’s got a blanket pardon from his demented dad. It’s not a great look for America
    Oh I agree. The money he was paid by various countries and companies for no obvious reason other than his dad was VP of the USA and then President is as blatant corruption as you can find. But the crimes of Donald Trump, prosecution of which has now been abandoned, are at least equally egregious.

    This is a terrible precedent but perhaps inevitable in a system where Lawfare has become so prevalent. Democrats carry their share of the blame for that.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,465
    edited December 2
    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442
    DavidL said:

    The collapse of the rule of law in the USA is a troubling thing. Compared to the corruption and dishonesty of the Supreme Court Justices (in any properly regulated system Clarence Thomas would have been disbarred by now) and the failure to hold Trump accountable for a riot at the Capitol the pardoning of Hunter Biden is a peccadillo but it is important because it leads to the charge that each is as bad as the other and that both use the criminal justice system for political ends.

    Trouble is- to a significant extent, they do. And have done for quite some time.

    That doesn't mean that one side doesn't push that far harder than the other, that one side is better and the other worse. In fact, that's inevitable, because anyone who went into the gunfight of US politics armed only with the teaspoon of virtue would get killed in the first five seconds.

    But it does allow people who are cleverish (but not that clever and not at all wise) or utterly cynical in their dishonesty to rant about both sides being as bad as each other, rather than bad and worse.

    It's a shame we can't actually revoke US independence, like those memes after the 2000 elections suggested. The current setup is clearly neither providing functionality or enjoyment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    DavidL said:

    The collapse of the rule of law in the USA is a troubling thing. Compared to the corruption and dishonesty of the Supreme Court Justices (in any properly regulated system Clarence Thomas would have been disbarred by now) and the failure to hold Trump accountable for a riot at the Capitol the pardoning of Hunter Biden is a peccadillo but it is important because it leads to the charge that each is as bad as the other and that both use the criminal justice system for political ends.

    It will perpetuate the MAGA fantasy that there was anything of substance left to investigate.

    I'm not sure what Leon's 'deeply serious' allegations are, as the many years of investigation have not actually surfaced any credible ones.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 2
    I don't necessarily think Musk's donation will make Farage win but it is certainly sizeable enough it could help Reform make real inroads in the redwall Leave traditionally Labour seats Boris won in 2019 but Starmer won back in July but which are now unhappy with Starmer and his government.

    I think the Tories are now down to their core vote, Tory voters who were going to go Reform largely did so in July and have stayed with Farage on the whole even after Badenoch took over the Tory leadership (though she has made some slight gains from Labour herself). Reform are now targeting Labour voters, especially white working class Leavers and they have already made some inroads with them, hence Farage's party is now polling close to 20% with the Tories and Labour both on 25-30%
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    I understand Facebook is still very much alive and well and serving its core retired audience pretty well. I’ve been guilty of writing it off in the past but then realised it’s still very widely used.

    There is no social platform where I feel “at home”. I use instagram for marketing purposes, LinkedIn to put out work stuff if I have to, and TwiX to check breaking news. But none feel like natural territory to linger.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Largely kids and grannies, isn't it?
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    The collapse of the rule of law in the USA is a troubling thing. Compared to the corruption and dishonesty of the Supreme Court Justices (in any properly regulated system Clarence Thomas would have been disbarred by now) and the failure to hold Trump accountable for a riot at the Capitol the pardoning of Hunter Biden is a peccadillo but it is important because it leads to the charge that each is as bad as the other and that both use the criminal justice system for political ends.

    Some of the allegations against Hunter Biden are deeply serious - far from “peccadillos” - and you’d be embarrassed to use that word if you were aware of them, I think

    However he may well be innocent, of course - the more profound allegations themselves may be politically contrived by Trumpites

    But we will now never know because he’s got a blanket pardon from his demented dad. It’s not a great look for America
    Oh I agree. The money he was paid by various countries and companies for no obvious reason other than his dad was VP of the USA and then President is as blatant corruption as you can find. But the crimes of Donald Trump, prosecution of which has now been abandoned, are at least equally egregious.

    This is a terrible precedent but perhaps inevitable in a system where Lawfare has become so prevalent. Democrats carry their share of the blame for that.
    I’m afraid there are considerably worse allegations than that. But I don’t want to get into such sleaze (and anything too legally controversial)

    I entirely agree America is now in an absolute mess. Its legal system has basically been trashed by both sides. How do they pull back from this?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    The answer to the headline question may well be: Both. Very large amounts of money obviously make stuff possible, and affect the political weather, but actually election results rest in respect of direct causation 100% of people making crosses on bits of paper, a process which cannot be bought since the introduction of the secret ballot.

    The UK public have resolutely elected a social democrat government in every election since 1945. And I think they will carry on doing so.

    No £trillions would ever make George Galloway prime minister; Farage becoming PM would rest ultimately on enough voters believing that his version of social democracy - a fairly old fashioned sort and even less well costed than the others - is the least worst available. Musk can't make Farage PM, but Kemi and Starmer might.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    Still a lot of scientists, subject specialists, and breaking news stuff on there, amid the general noise.
    It's perfectly possible to filter most of the latter out, even though it's probably 95% of the traffic.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    @rcs1000 and OGH are both regular posters on Facebook
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Community notes destroys Joe Biden

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1863504144277131672?s=61
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    “From a human point of view”

    Listen to yourself

    Even the NYT is expressing shame and shock

    “Mr. Biden’s decision to use the extraordinary power of executive clemency to wipe out his son’s convictions on gun and tax charges came despite repeated statements by him and his aides that he would not do so. Just this past summer, after his son was convicted at trial, the president rejected the idea of a pardon and said that “I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process.” The statement he issued on Sunday night made clear he did not accept the outcome or respect the process”
    Americans re elected Trump despite his criminal conviction and the other charges against the President elect have largely been dropped after the SC ruling on presidential immunity. So Biden I suspect felt he may as well use the same presidential immunity and pardon powers to let his son off especially as he is never running for election again when he leaves the White House and now doesn't give a toss what voters think of him and his family
  • TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    I understand Facebook is still very much alive and well and serving its core retired audience pretty well. I’ve been guilty of writing it off in the past but then realised it’s still very widely used.

    There is no social platform where I feel “at home”. I use instagram for marketing purposes, LinkedIn to put out work stuff if I have to, and TwiX to check breaking news. But none feel like natural territory to linger.
    May I recommend politicalbetting.com

    It has a wide range of informed opinion and is completely authentic (apart from the occasional Russian Bot.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    If you are saying that the US Constitution is not fit for purpose it would be impossible to disagree. The Electoral College system is a joke. The fact we still don't have the final figures for the House is absurd (as is the concept of an entire House being up for election every 2 years). The weighting of the Senate is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has far too much power for a democracy and not nearly enough oversight. Those founding fathers didn't know their arses from their elbows and pretending that their political fixes should be hallowed in some way shows the fantasy of the whole thing.
    I wish we had the 1st Amemdment, however
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Largely kids and grannies, isn't it?
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    The collapse of the rule of law in the USA is a troubling thing. Compared to the corruption and dishonesty of the Supreme Court Justices (in any properly regulated system Clarence Thomas would have been disbarred by now) and the failure to hold Trump accountable for a riot at the Capitol the pardoning of Hunter Biden is a peccadillo but it is important because it leads to the charge that each is as bad as the other and that both use the criminal justice system for political ends.

    Some of the allegations against Hunter Biden are deeply serious - far from “peccadillos” - and you’d be embarrassed to use that word if you were aware of them, I think

    However he may well be innocent, of course - the more profound allegations themselves may be politically contrived by Trumpites

    But we will now never know because he’s got a blanket pardon from his demented dad. It’s not a great look for America
    Oh I agree. The money he was paid by various countries and companies for no obvious reason other than his dad was VP of the USA and then President is as blatant corruption as you can find. But the crimes of Donald Trump, prosecution of which has now been abandoned, are at least equally egregious.

    This is a terrible precedent but perhaps inevitable in a system where Lawfare has become so prevalent. Democrats carry their share of the blame for that.
    I’m afraid there are considerably worse allegations than that. But I don’t want to get into such sleaze (and anything too legally controversial)

    I entirely agree America is now in an absolute mess. Its legal system has basically been trashed by both sides. How do they pull back from this?
    With enormous difficulty but I think that the starting point has to be reform of the Supreme Court, holding Justices to account, imposing term limits on them, restricting their powers to overturn laws passed by Congress and, somehow, making them less political. Of course we can forget any of that in the next 4 years.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,932

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    I understand Facebook is still very much alive and well and serving its core retired audience pretty well. I’ve been guilty of writing it off in the past but then realised it’s still very widely used.

    There is no social platform where I feel “at home”. I use instagram for marketing purposes, LinkedIn to put out work stuff if I have to, and TwiX to check breaking news. But none feel like natural territory to linger.
    May I recommend politicalbetting.com

    It has a wide range of informed opinion and is completely authentic (apart from the occasional Russian Bot.)
    Informed?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    If you are saying that the US Constitution is not fit for purpose it would be impossible to disagree. The Electoral College system is a joke. The fact we still don't have the final figures for the House is absurd (as is the concept of an entire House being up for election every 2 years). The weighting of the Senate is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has far too much power for a democracy and not nearly enough oversight. Those founding fathers didn't know their arses from their elbows and pretending that their political fixes should be hallowed in some way shows the fantasy of the whole thing.
    There are lots of weaknesses in the US Constitution, but a regular pattern in history is for a successful revolt against colonial domination to result in a civil war shortly thereafter. That happened in Ireland. In the US they had nearly 80 years between the conclusion of the war of independence and the civil war, which seems to be pretty good evidence that the constitution did a good job in keeping 13 fractious colonies together - an outcome that was by no means inevitable.

    The main problem the US has now is the extremely deep levels of partisanship, but even there one could argue that the constitution is helping things, as each side is able to block change to the constitution until they trust the other, and each side still has a stake in governance, because of the power that rests at different levels.

    I don't think the British constitution would deal so well with such vitriolic levels of partisanship.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited December 2
    algarkirk said:

    The answer to the headline question may well be: Both. Very large amounts of money obviously make stuff possible, and affect the political weather, but actually election results rest in respect of direct causation 100% of people making crosses on bits of paper, a process which cannot be bought since the introduction of the secret ballot.

    The UK public have resolutely elected a social democrat government in every election since 1945. And I think they will carry on doing so.

    No £trillions would ever make George Galloway prime minister; Farage becoming PM would rest ultimately on enough voters believing that his version of social democracy - a fairly old fashioned sort and even less well costed than the others - is the least worst available. Musk can't make Farage PM, but Kemi and Starmer might.

    Farage isn't a social democrat, he is a Thatcherite who wants to replace much of the NHS with private health insurance and replace the welfare state with contributions based welfare mostly.

    He just pretends to be a bit social democrat when campaigning in the redwall. Johnson was economically quite social democrat and as he called himself 'a Brexity Hezza' but Farage isn't and economically more of a Thatcherite ideologue than Boris ever was
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    “From a human point of view”

    Listen to yourself

    Even the NYT is expressing shame and shock

    “Mr. Biden’s decision to use the extraordinary power of executive clemency to wipe out his son’s convictions on gun and tax charges came despite repeated statements by him and his aides that he would not do so. Just this past summer, after his son was convicted at trial, the president rejected the idea of a pardon and said that “I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process.” The statement he issued on Sunday night made clear he did not accept the outcome or respect the process”
    Americans re elected Trump despite his criminal conviction and the other charges against the President elect have largely been dropped after the SC ruling on presidential immunity. So Biden I suspect felt he may as well use the same presidential immunity and pardon powers to let his son off especially as he is never running for election again when he leaves the White House and now doesn't give a toss what voters think of him and his family
    That's probably as good an explanation as any.
    In any event, given that Leon has judged Biden as demented, there's clearly no prospect of bringing him to justice anyway.
  • kjh said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    I understand Facebook is still very much alive and well and serving its core retired audience pretty well. I’ve been guilty of writing it off in the past but then realised it’s still very widely used.

    There is no social platform where I feel “at home”. I use instagram for marketing purposes, LinkedIn to put out work stuff if I have to, and TwiX to check breaking news. But none feel like natural territory to linger.
    May I recommend politicalbetting.com

    It has a wide range of informed opinion and is completely authentic (apart from the occasional Russian Bot.)
    Informed?
    Sure. Have you never followed the threads on pizza toppings?

    You don't get information like that on Bake Off.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    “From a human point of view”

    Listen to yourself

    Even the NYT is expressing shame and shock

    “Mr. Biden’s decision to use the extraordinary power of executive clemency to wipe out his son’s convictions on gun and tax charges came despite repeated statements by him and his aides that he would not do so. Just this past summer, after his son was convicted at trial, the president rejected the idea of a pardon and said that “I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process.” The statement he issued on Sunday night made clear he did not accept the outcome or respect the process”
    Americans re elected Trump despite his criminal conviction and the other charges against the President elect have largely been dropped after the SC ruling on presidential immunity. So Biden I suspect felt he may as well use the same presidential immunity and pardon powers to let his son off especially as he is never running for election again when he leaves the White House and now doesn't give a toss what voters think of him and his family
    Biden clearly doesn’t give a toss about anything. He’s evidently bitter - when he’s not gaga - that he was shunted aside for Harris. Who then lost comprehensively

    However Biden is damaging the whole Democrat party - and indeed the American polity. How can the Dems now complain about any of Trump’s legal mischief? They can’t



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited December 2
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    “From a human point of view”

    Listen to yourself

    Even the NYT is expressing shame and shock

    “Mr. Biden’s decision to use the extraordinary power of executive clemency to wipe out his son’s convictions on gun and tax charges came despite repeated statements by him and his aides that he would not do so. Just this past summer, after his son was convicted at trial, the president rejected the idea of a pardon and said that “I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process.” The statement he issued on Sunday night made clear he did not accept the outcome or respect the process”
    Americans re elected Trump despite his criminal conviction and the other charges against the President elect have largely been dropped after the SC ruling on presidential immunity. So Biden I suspect felt he may as well use the same presidential immunity and pardon powers to let his son off especially as he is never running for election again when he leaves the White House and now doesn't give a toss what voters think of him and his family
    That's probably as good an explanation as any.
    In any event, given that Leon has judged Biden as demented, there's clearly no prospect of bringing him to justice anyway.
    Well the prosecutor who looked into the fact he had a garage full of classified documents already judged this to be the case.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,465
    edited December 2
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    Does anybody still use Twitter?
    I do.
    But I can't see any of their advertising having much effect on me.
    I'm genuinely interested in what their readership is.

    I've never used it, although I used to click on links that others put up. (I generally regreted doing so.) Now I don't even do that because they insist on knowing my d.o.b. and I won't give them that.

    It's not been any great loss.

    Similar with Facebook, which I haven't visited for years. I have the impression that has degenerated into a wasteland for lonely losers.
    @rcs1000 and OGH are both regular posters on Facebook
    Test
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    The White House spokeswomen 6 months ago


    "No. No. It's a no. It will always be a no. Biden will not pardon his son Hunter."

    https://x.com/richquack/status/1863504826346488110?s=46

    Do the optics get any worse than that?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,505
    edited December 2
    Well that was a fun half an hour as the state of the art LLMs couldn't provide me with the correct ffmpeg settings (if you know, you know), making up flags that don't exist. Long way to go to AGI...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Where're the figures for that?
  • Leon said:

    The White House spokeswomen 6 months ago


    "No. No. It's a no. It will always be a no. Biden will not pardon his son Hunter."

    https://x.com/richquack/status/1863504826346488110?s=46

    Do the optics get any worse than that?

    It's more than optics, it's a shitshow, and it's no excuse to point at Trump.

    Democrats have as much to answer for as the GoP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The utter blistering hypocrisy of Biden and the Democrats

    They spend two years concocting often dubious law cases against Trump - basically trying anything to get him in jail. But that’s ok because the Democrats aren’t criminals and they don’t break the law like Trump so they are allowed to bend the law a bit ahem

    And now Biden flat out pardons his convicted criminal son. There will be an awful lot of Americans feeling very vindicated in their vote for Trump

    And the republicans did all they could to keep Trump out of jail, and will continue to do so now. I don't see any righteous anger from you about that.

    The presidential pardon system is a cancerous ulcer in America's body politic. Politically, Biden should not have done this. But from a human point of view, I see why he did.
    “From a human point of view”

    Listen to yourself

    Even the NYT is expressing shame and shock

    “Mr. Biden’s decision to use the extraordinary power of executive clemency to wipe out his son’s convictions on gun and tax charges came despite repeated statements by him and his aides that he would not do so. Just this past summer, after his son was convicted at trial, the president rejected the idea of a pardon and said that “I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process.” The statement he issued on Sunday night made clear he did not accept the outcome or respect the process”
    Americans re elected Trump despite his criminal conviction and the other charges against the President elect have largely been dropped after the SC ruling on presidential immunity. So Biden I suspect felt he may as well use the same presidential immunity and pardon powers to let his son off especially as he is never running for election again when he leaves the White House and now doesn't give a toss what voters think of him and his family
    Biden clearly doesn’t give a toss about anything. He’s evidently bitter - when he’s not gaga - that he was shunted aside for Harris. Who then lost comprehensively

    However Biden is damaging the whole Democrat party - and indeed the American polity. How can the Dems now complain about any of Trump’s legal mischief? They can’t



    As well he might be, Biden beat Trump, Hillary and Harris were both beaten by Trump, Harris even losing the popular vote to Trump.

    A Biden without dementia may well have narrowly won re election over Trump. However Biden is now focused on his family and given Trump will get no punishment it seems for his criminal conviction why can't Biden ensure the same for Hunter?

    It really won't make much difference to the Dems, Biden will never be their candidate again and how they do in the 2026 midterms depends on the record of Trump's incoming administration on the economy and border control not Biden's pardon of his son today.

    The moment US voters re elected Trump Dems couldn't make anymore of Trump's legal mischief anyway
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Leon said:

    The White House spokeswomen 6 months ago


    "No. No. It's a no. It will always be a no. Biden will not pardon his son Hunter."

    https://x.com/richquack/status/1863504826346488110?s=46

    Do the optics get any worse than that?

    It's more than optics, it's a shitshow, and it's no excuse to point at Trump.

    Democrats have as much to answer for as the GoP.
    I agree, they have, but far too many people (including a few here) are doing exactly that. I thought Trump was supposed to be bad not just used as an excuse to support your own sides bad actions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    If you are saying that the US Constitution is not fit for purpose it would be impossible to disagree. The Electoral College system is a joke. The fact we still don't have the final figures for the House is absurd (as is the concept of an entire House being up for election every 2 years). The weighting of the Senate is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has far too much power for a democracy and not nearly enough oversight. Those founding fathers didn't know their arses from their elbows and pretending that their political fixes should be hallowed in some way shows the fantasy of the whole thing.
    It all went wrong after the US War of Independence then, say what you like about King George III but he obeyed the law himself and for his family and he was anointed by God not some Electoral College system
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Where're the figures for that?
    “Twitter has 421 million monthly active users, adding 20 million in 2023”

    https://www.businessofapps.com/data/twitter-statistics/

    Btw I do not ascribe this to the genius of Musk. He’s mismanaged X quite seriously. From the idiotic name change to the blue tick stuff to the strangling of links. All bad

    I reckon he’s simply benefiting from a charged political environment and a monumental sequence of elections and news events. So people go to TwiX
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,405
    Looks like a FF-FG-LAB gov't in Ireland to me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    So the official presidential Democrat position on the American legal system is “we fully and absolutely respect the due process of law and we always abide by the decisions of our independent judiciary, until they make a decision we don’t like then fuck all that lol”

    Yes, that is how the American constitution is written.

    To understand why, you need to think on what they were doing. To many of the Founding Fathers, they were building England 2.0

    With lots of The Ancient Rights under Magna Carta stuff.

    So, the President was the King, but elected. The Senate was the House of Lords, but nominated* by the States to represent their interests in Washington. The reason that all the minor local functionaries are elected is to try and avoid a Squirearchy. Etc etc…

    The power of pardon is an ancient one. Part of the ultimate power of kings. The idea is that the mechanism of justice can sometimes produce injustice. So the Noble King saves the day, 5 minutes before the play ends.

    *Originally not elected.
    If you are saying that the US Constitution is not fit for purpose it would be impossible to disagree. The Electoral College system is a joke. The fact we still don't have the final figures for the House is absurd (as is the concept of an entire House being up for election every 2 years). The weighting of the Senate is ridiculous. The Supreme Court has far too much power for a democracy and not nearly enough oversight. Those founding fathers didn't know their arses from their elbows and pretending that their political fixes should be hallowed in some way shows the fantasy of the whole thing.
    It all went wrong after the US War of Independence then, say what you like about King George III but he obeyed the law himself and for his family and he was anointed by God not some Electoral College system
    A stone cold classic @HYUFD comment

    Never change, old pal, never change!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited December 2
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The $100m will have less influence than Twitter being used to peddle Farage and attack the "establishment" for the next four years. That will be pivotal.

    It would be if anyone was still on Twitter.
    TwitterX is right now recording some of the highest user numbers in its history. Despite the rise of Bluesky
    Where're the figures for that?
    “Twitter has 421 million monthly active users, adding 20 million in 2023”

    https://www.businessofapps.com/data/twitter-statistics/

    Btw I do not ascribe this to the genius of Musk. He’s mismanaged X quite seriously. From the idiotic name change to the blue tick stuff to the strangling of links. All bad

    I reckon he’s simply benefiting from a charged political environment and a monumental sequence of elections and news events. So people go to TwiX
    I wouldn’t be trusting those figures as it’s not matching what I’m hearing from people who make their money in social media

    Also that’s from mid October before the migration to Bluesky kicked off
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,125
    edited December 2
    Leon said:

    The White House spokeswomen 6 months ago


    "No. No. It's a no. It will always be a no. Biden will not pardon his son Hunter."

    https://x.com/richquack/status/1863504826346488110?s=46

    Do the optics get any worse than that?

    I agree a direct lie doesn't look particularly good, but Clinton's pardons were worse by a long way, both optically and practically.

    At least Hunter Biden is accused of relative trivialities for the most part which aren't even usually prosecuted and everybody can understand a father wanting to help his surviving son but there was no excuse at all for Marc Rich, whose wife had just happened to make large donations to Hilary's Senate campaign.
This discussion has been closed.