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A new addition (or two) to the ever growing republican movement – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,445

    I've never heard a republican argument that wouldn't put the average voter into a coma. No upside for the average person for it to be a massive vote winner. It's an obsession of people with no joy in their lives.

    King Harry and Queen Meghan.
    Simples.

    Monarchy is by Divine Right.

    Every now and again, it turns out that the Divine Right to be King has been bestowed on another house.

    Often immigrant.

    Come on, as a Conservative, you are supposed to know these traditions…
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246

    The most dangerous moment for the monarchy was the 1936 abdication crisis.

    Were it not for that we'd have had a delinquent Nazi-sympathising King on the throne, who couldn't control his behaviour or keep his gob shut, and the Attlee government would have abolished the monarchy in their post 1945 administration.

    Had Camilla and Charles' son been heir to the throne that would also have been a danger.

    Ruthlessly though QE2 recognised Camilla was not glamorous or charismatic enough to produce an heir for the 21st century TV and digital age and ensured Charles married the much more beautiful and charismatic Diana who produced William (and Harry).

    Only once Camilla was over 50 and past childbearing age and Diana had sadly passed away did the late Queen allow Charles to marry her
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,758
    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    GBP72m seems quite a good deal given all the stuff associated with the coronation.

    Doesn't it depend on how you account for indirect costs?

    For example, how much does an extra Bank Holiday cost in terms of GDP?

    The Coronation was on a Saturday, so there was no real point to the extra Bank Holiday
    But many people will have valued the extra day off - what matters in cost-benefit analyses is welfare, not GDP, and when the two clash, usually because of non-quantifiable metrics the former wins.

    Also not all the £72m will be lost to the country - it's not like climate aid. Much of it will be spent on goods and services in the UK stimulating the economy, and much of that will come back to the government in extra tax revenue.

    And so on and so on and so on. Basically you can come to whatever answer you want.

    But what isn't contestable is that it's an utterly trivial amount for a once-in-a-generation ceremony and if we really want to cut public spending, there are plenty of juicier and less justifiable targets to go after.
    Yeah, I don't particularly object to the expense. If we are to keep the Monarchy then we have to accept the occasional event as part of the running costs.

    I think it a lot of pompous nonsense myself, but a fair number seemed to enjoy Ms Mordaunt weilding a sword, and it seems a fairly harmless pleasure. Those of us who want to ignore it can.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    I for one would be very sad and quite concerned if we got rid of the monarchy. The Westminster System depends on it and it provides a logical basis for law. You can't take the keystone out of the arch.

    MattW said:

    I think that this could be quite a can of worms.

    We could end up like the French with the Government spending more on the Presidency than we do on the Monarchy, and more on maintaining the Disestablished Church Buildings than we prviously did on grants etc to the church institution.

    For all my grumbling I think our system works pretty well despite failure to address some key problems (for which changing the governing system would not address, since it is a political issue not a result of the system), and so further fudges and tweaks can achieve some good ends without ostensibly dramatic changes which I doubt would have as much effect on things like general equality or meritocratic advancement as compared to now.

    It's silly in its ceremonial aspect, naturally, but I've yet to be persuaded its such a big deal that we need big changes in that area. Not many of our problems could not be addressed without tackling it.

    I would expect remaining Caribbean monarchies to end fairly soon (some have been working on it for seemingly decades, it's surprising more have not done so already), and possibly only your UK/Canada/Australia ones in the medium term, but I presently expect the monarchy to last my lifetime here.

    However, these things can be more brittle than expected - if people don't really care to change it can continue on without much enthusiasm (eg Canada), but equally support can erode quickly if the wrong monarch messed up in a big way.
    I keep thinking the monarchy must be doomed in places like Australia, and then I see positive polling that surprises me.
    In Australia I think it is partly a desire from rural and suburban and small town Australia to tell the leftist liberal urban big city elite who want a republic and despise the Australian white working class who rejected the Voice for indigenous Australians last year to sod off
    This is partly true, but I also have a big-city, liberal-ish, Australian friend, whose family love Kate and William.

    There's actually still quite a lot of support for them there across the board, I think. Canada and New Zealand I don't know about.
    New Zealand is similar and as you say once William and Kate replace Charles and Camilla will increase further.

    Canada both the Liberals and Tories back the monarchy, only the minor NDP and BQ oppose it, so it is less than an issue than in Australia and NZ where Labor and Labour want a republic
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,782
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"

    Ah, they got rid of your luncheon vouchers?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    I for one would be very sad and quite concerned if we got rid of the monarchy. The Westminster System depends on it and it provides a logical basis for law. You can't take the keystone out of the arch.

    MattW said:

    I think that this could be quite a can of worms.

    We could end up like the French with the Government spending more on the Presidency than we do on the Monarchy, and more on maintaining the Disestablished Church Buildings than we prviously did on grants etc to the church institution.

    For all my grumbling I think our system works pretty well despite failure to address some key problems (for which changing the governing system would not address, since it is a political issue not a result of the system), and so further fudges and tweaks can achieve some good ends without ostensibly dramatic changes which I doubt would have as much effect on things like general equality or meritocratic advancement as compared to now.

    It's silly in its ceremonial aspect, naturally, but I've yet to be persuaded its such a big deal that we need big changes in that area. Not many of our problems could not be addressed without tackling it.

    I would expect remaining Caribbean monarchies to end fairly soon (some have been working on it for seemingly decades, it's surprising more have not done so already), and possibly only your UK/Canada/Australia ones in the medium term, but I presently expect the monarchy to last my lifetime here.

    However, these things can be more brittle than expected - if people don't really care to change it can continue on without much enthusiasm (eg Canada), but equally support can erode quickly if the wrong monarch messed up in a big way.
    I keep thinking the monarchy must be doomed in places like Australia, and then I see positive polling that surprises me.
    In Australia I think it is partly a desire from rural and suburban and small town Australia to tell the leftist liberal urban big city elite who want a republic and despise the Australian white working class who rejected the Voice last year to sod off
    Yep. As happened in New Zealand on the flag referendum. The revenge of the overlooked
    Indeed, see also Trump, Brexit, Meloni etc
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246

    I've never heard a republican argument that wouldn't put the average voter into a coma. No upside for the average person for it to be a massive vote winner. It's an obsession of people with no joy in their lives.

    King Harry and Queen Meghan.
    For under 30s that wouldn't be a problem either
  • Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet another tedious anti monarchy republican rant of an article by Liberal Radical non Tory TSE.

    The Daily Star is a leftwing tabloid rag of a paper which hardly anybody reads nowadays and AN Wilson is just a historian who occasionally comments in the Daily Mail and likes being contrarian.

    The fact is the coronation raised far more in tourist revenue than it cost, indeed when we went up to London for the spectacular event there were tourists from Europe, America and all over the world with us who had come specifically to the UK to watch it. It is not as if Presidents don't have costly inaugrations either, US presidential inaugrations cost over $100 milliion every 4 years and they don't even have an NHS at all as a bottomless pit to pour endless billions of taxpayers money into but a mostly private health insurance system

    Why should our taxes be poured into the London tourist industry's pockets? Even if your assertion is correct.

    Unless the London tourist industry had so many extra tourists *over and above a normal period at the same time of year* that the extra tax amounted to markedly more than £72M over and above the additional take.

    According to the CEBR the coronation was worth an additional £337 million to the UK economy. I would suggest the tax take from that would have comfortably coveerd the £72 million cost.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246

    HYUFD said:

    Yet another tedious anti monarchy republican rant of an article by Liberal Radical non Tory TSE.

    The Daily Star is a leftwing tabloid rag of a paper which hardly anybody reads nowadays and AN Wilson is just a historian who occasionally comments in the Daily Mail and likes being contrarian.

    The fact is the coronation raised far more in tourist revenue than it cost, indeed when we went up to London for the spectacular event there were tourists from Europe, America and all over the world with us who had come specifically to the UK to watch it. It is not as if Presidents don't have costly inaugrations either, US presidential inaugrations cost over $100 milliion every 4 years and they don't even have an NHS at all as a bottomless pit to pour endless billions of taxpayers money into but a mostly private health insurance system

    I am ambivalent about the monarchy but in the absence of an alternative then it will continue

    I have no respect for subservience and bowing which I would refuse to do but treated with equal respect then OK

    I expect in time the monarchy will lose most of the commonwealth to republics
    Most of the Commonwealth already are republics or have their own heads of state, it is the white majority Commonwealth that comprises the majority of the population of the remaining Commonwealth realms
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"

    Indeed. Survival of the best adapted to new conditions. That does not necessarily mean ever upward.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    edited November 23
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet another tedious anti monarchy republican rant of an article by Liberal Radical non Tory TSE.

    The Daily Star is a leftwing tabloid rag of a paper which hardly anybody reads nowadays and AN Wilson is just a historian who occasionally comments in the Daily Mail and likes being contrarian.

    The fact is the coronation raised far more in tourist revenue than it cost, indeed when we went up to London for the spectacular event there were tourists from Europe, America and all over the world with us who had come specifically to the UK to watch it. It is not as if Presidents don't have costly inaugrations either, US presidential inaugrations cost over $100 milliion every 4 years and they don't even have an NHS at all as a bottomless pit to pour endless billions of taxpayers money into but a mostly private health insurance system

    Why should our taxes be poured into the London tourist industry's pockets? Even if your assertion is correct.

    Unless the London tourist industry had so many extra tourists *over and above a normal period at the same time of year* that the extra tax amounted to markedly more than £72M over and above the additional take.

    It probably did given the number of foreign tourists staying in hotels and eating in London restaurants specifically to view the coronation
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,758
    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    It's called de-evolution.

    Are we not Men?

    We are Devo

    https://youtu.be/5JdS-sSKsBc?feature=shared
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,450
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    It's called de-evolution.

    Are we not Men?

    We are Devo

    https://youtu.be/5JdS-sSKsBc?feature=shared
    That's the Senedd.
  • The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,238

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"

    Indeed. Survival of the best adapted to new conditions. That does not necessarily mean ever upward.
    And it's precisely when a dramatic change in conditions arises that random mutations can confer the greatest advantages so are most likely to proliferate.

    Still, we rarely care about the individual when discussing evolution, so we the next few hundred years may be fairly brutal.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,712
    edited November 23

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    I think I'll apply for that, it is a job suited my skill set.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,450
    edited November 23

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    I think I'll apply for that, it is a job suited my skillset.
    You mean, it calls for subtlety and modesty?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,680

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    Excellent news. Lots of work to do there.
  • Fishing said:

    The most dangerous moment for the monarchy was the 1936 abdication crisis.

    Were it not for that we'd have had a delinquent Nazi-sympathising King on the throne, who couldn't control his behaviour or keep his gob shut, and the Attlee government would have abolished the monarchy in their post 1945 administration.

    We'd be better off if they'd abolished the monarchy instead of creating the NHS. Discuss.
    Yes I am able to discuss it... but only because I am alive, which without the NHS I undoubtedly would not be.
    Why on earth not?

    No other country has the NHS, and few have anything much like it. Other countries do have healthcare systems though, many considerably better than ours. If we hadn't created the NHS we might have something more like the French or German systems. And my guess is you'd probably still be around.
    Indeed. Most of the Health Services of Europe are better than ours - unless your measure is control of paper clip distribution.
    And they spend more on them.
    We spent far more during the Blair era. It never got us anywhere near within touching distance of the rest of Europe. I know you hate to hear it but no matter how much we spend on the NHS it will never, ever be fit for purpose. It is designed to suck in money and produce a very basic, just about passable, sometimes failing, never brilliant, service.

    We could learn vast amounts from the rest of Europe about how to run a health servcice but we won't because the NHS is a religion and has way to many fanatical acolytes.

    I do actually think Wes Streeting might have the balls to make some radical changes but I suspect he will be unable to do so because of the fanatics and vested interests.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,777

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    I think I'll apply for that, it is a job suited my skill set.
    The job description is clearly written with David Cameron in mind.
  • maxh said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"

    Indeed. Survival of the best adapted to new conditions. That does not necessarily mean ever upward.
    And it's precisely when a dramatic change in conditions arises that random mutations can confer the greatest advantages so are most likely to proliferate.

    Still, we rarely care about the individual when discussing evolution, so we the next few hundred years may be fairly brutal.
    Ah, I see you are a fellow fan of punctuated equilibrium. :smile:
  • ydoethur said:

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    I think I'll apply for that, it is a job suited my skillset.
    You mean, it calls for subtlety and modesty?
    Yes, plus I can speak French* and German.

    *I sound like Officer Crabtree Ted Heath these days when I speak French.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283
    edited November 23
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,063

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    Surely unnecessary? I remember being told on here before the election that the new government would have three quick and easy wins - relations with the EU, housebuilding and stopping the small boats. These alone would ensure an easy ride from the new government for its first couple of years.

    These turned out as accurate as other left-liberal myths - e.g. Trump's criminal convictions barring him from the White House, Remain being a dead cert and America's increasing diversity meaning that the Republicans would never win the popular vote again.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,176
    edited November 23
    City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    lol
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898

    City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy

    Pep is the Alex Ferguson of his generation, simply the best. But I think he needs a break, a year or so out of the game to regroup. This is extraordinary.
  • The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    I think I'll apply for that, it is a job suited my skill set.
    Sue Gray is at a loose end....
  • DavidL said:

    City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy

    Pep is the Alex Ferguson of his generation, simply the best. But I think he needs a break, a year or so out of the game to regroup. This is extraordinary.
    Hasn't he just signed for another 2 years ?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,782

    The UK government is hiring a new negotiator to help deliver a “reset” of relations with Europe.

    The job posting says the role will lead the government's relationship with the European Union and negotiations with the EU "on key UK interests", with mentions of trade, security and border policy.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0xngdj2jo

    I think I'll apply for that, it is a job suited my skill set.
    Sue Gray is at a loose end....
    He could learn new skills
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,324
    edited November 23
    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    GBP72m seems quite a good deal given all the stuff associated with the coronation.

    Doesn't it depend on how you account for indirect costs?

    For example, how much does an extra Bank Holiday cost in terms of GDP?

    The Coronation was on a Saturday, so there was no real point to the extra Bank Holiday
    But many people will have valued the extra day off - what matters in cost-benefit analyses is welfare, not GDP, and when the two clash, usually because of non-quantifiable metrics the former wins.

    Also not all the £72m will be lost to the country - it's not like climate aid. Much of it will be spent on goods and services in the UK stimulating the economy, and much of that will come back to the government in extra tax revenue.

    And so on and so on and so on. Basically you can come to whatever answer you want.

    But what isn't contestable is that it's an utterly trivial amount for a once-in-a-generation ceremony and if we really want to cut public spending, there are plenty of juicier and less justifiable targets to go after.
    Yeah, I don't particularly object to the expense. If we are to keep the Monarchy then we have to accept the occasional event as part of the running costs.

    I think it a lot of pompous nonsense myself, but a fair number seemed to enjoy Ms Mordaunt weilding a sword, and it seems a fairly harmless pleasure. Those of us who want to ignore it can.
    I do think that we are ready for a further step of reform.

    I'd perhaps look at the status of the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, for one, and the blanket exemptions from some taxes since time immemorial.

    A start might be to bring them into line with other estates - a 6% tax once a decade would be a good step, as applies to other Trusts.

    But then I'd reform the Estates Tax (whatever it is called - is it part of IHT?) and make it perhaps 8%.

    We're good at doing things about100-500 years behind others. Let's maintain best practice :smile:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898

    DavidL said:

    City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy

    Pep is the Alex Ferguson of his generation, simply the best. But I think he needs a break, a year or so out of the game to regroup. This is extraordinary.
    Hasn't he just signed for another 2 years ?
    Yes, but he's mentally exhausted. He needs a break,
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,884
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I think you've got left populism the wrong way around. It'll keep the xenophobia but will be lefty in economics. Like, basically, LePenism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
  • ydoethur said:

    I've never heard a republican argument that wouldn't put the average voter into a coma. No upside for the average person for it to be a massive vote winner. It's an obsession of people with no joy in their lives.

    King Andrew I?
    Always gets outweighed by President Thatcher. ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    Wales still in this, incredibly
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,782
    I just got an email from the editor of the Times to thank me for subscribing. It didn't even bother to have the text of thank you and his 'yours sincerely' and his name. Just a link to an image.

    Having dispensed with the Telegraph given their increasing desire to rant right, I was hoping that the Times would offer something better. At first evidence it seems that I'm going to have to be newspaperless in the future.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,324
    edited November 23
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    GBP72m seems quite a good deal given all the stuff associated with the coronation.

    Doesn't it depend on how you account for indirect costs?

    For example, how much does an extra Bank Holiday cost in terms of GDP?

    The Coronation was on a Saturday, so there was no real point to the extra Bank Holiday
    But many people will have valued the extra day off - what matters in cost-benefit analyses is welfare, not GDP, and when the two clash, usually because of non-quantifiable metrics the former wins.

    Also not all the £72m will be lost to the country - it's not like climate aid. Much of it will be spent on goods and services in the UK stimulating the economy, and much of that will come back to the government in extra tax revenue.

    And so on and so on and so on. Basically you can come to whatever answer you want.

    But what isn't contestable is that it's an utterly trivial amount for a once-in-a-generation ceremony and if we really want to cut public spending, there are plenty of juicier and less justifiable targets to go after.
    Yeah, I don't particularly object to the expense. If we are to keep the Monarchy then we have to accept the occasional event as part of the running costs.

    I think it a lot of pompous nonsense myself, but a fair number seemed to enjoy Ms Mordaunt weilding a sword, and it seems a fairly harmless pleasure. Those of us who want to ignore it can.
    I do think that we are ready for a further step of reform.

    I'd perhaps look at the status of the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, for one, and the blanket exemptions from some taxes since time immemorial.

    A start might be to bring them into line with other estates - a 6% tax once a decade would be a good step, as applies to other Trusts.

    But then I'd reform the Estates Tax (whatever it is called - is it part of IHT?) and make it perhaps 8%.

    We're good at doing things about 100-500 years behind others. Let's maintain best practice :smile:
    Have asked AI, those combined assets are stated as around £1.8bn. So it's £120m or so once a decade at current rates.

    I might be tempted to make the whole thing an annual levy of 0.8% instead.

    I'd also have a good look at Bona Vacantia.

    But this is hardly my specialism.

    (It's hardly Republic's specialism either - they often tell fairy stories.)
  • kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    You asked where the 'adults in the room' meme came from.

    A Labour frontbencher has insisted there will still be opposition in the House of Commons despite the Conservatives suffering a “historic” loss at last weeks election, as Labour engages with the proper scrutiny procedures.

    “The adults are back in the room”, Darren Jones, chief secretary to the Treasury, added.


    https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2024/07/08/labour-frontbencher-darren-jones-the-adults-are-back-in-the-room/

    It didn't need long for its usage to change from smugness to mockery.
  • Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    A demise of undemocratic international "cooperation" is not necessarily a bad thing.

    Democracy, not internationalism, has been the bulwark of both progress and accountability.

    However governments have attempted to move ideas as being beyond the electorate by international agreements. That brings a well-deserved backlash.

    Good ideas should survive democratic rigor.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898
    Leon said:

    Wales still in this, incredibly

    IANAE of the game with the oddly shaped balls but they look miles behind to me.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,884
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    A German party which is both nationalist AND socialist. What could go wrong?
  • Fishing said:

    The most dangerous moment for the monarchy was the 1936 abdication crisis.

    Were it not for that we'd have had a delinquent Nazi-sympathising King on the throne, who couldn't control his behaviour or keep his gob shut, and the Attlee government would have abolished the monarchy in their post 1945 administration.

    We'd be better off if they'd abolished the monarchy instead of creating the NHS. Discuss.
    Yes I am able to discuss it... but only because I am alive, which without the NHS I undoubtedly would not be.
    Why on earth not?

    No other country has the NHS, and few have anything much like it. Other countries do have healthcare systems though, many considerably better than ours. If we hadn't created the NHS we might have something more like the French or German systems. And my guess is you'd probably still be around.
    Indeed. Most of the Health Services of Europe are better than ours - unless your measure is control of paper clip distribution.
    And they spend more on them.
    We spent far more during the Blair era. It never got us anywhere near within touching distance of the rest of Europe. I know you hate to hear it but no matter how much we spend on the NHS it will never, ever be fit for purpose. It is designed to suck in money and produce a very basic, just about passable, sometimes failing, never brilliant, service.

    We could learn vast amounts from the rest of Europe about how to run a health servcice but we won't because the NHS is a religion and has way to many fanatical acolytes.

    I do actually think Wes Streeting might have the balls to make some radical changes but I suspect he will be unable to do so because of the fanatics and vested interests.
    Wes Streeting, based on everything he has said and done so far, is just New Labour redux: follow Lord Darzi's recommendations, privatise a bit, and pay for it by selling patient data to America.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,859
    AN Wilson has exposed his ignorance on the war in Ukraine. I don't know whether he's more knowledgeable on more provincial matters. TSE does seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with the Monarchy. Support was always going to drop after HMQ died due to her sheer length of service and the link to WW2, Churchill etc. It's not democratic but have they had as much influence over our politics in recent decades as say Rupert Murdoch? I think not. Is TSE bothered about that?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,859
    Leon said:

    Wales still in this, incredibly

    I stopped watching before half time. Another hammering.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    You asked where the 'adults in the room' meme came from.

    A Labour frontbencher has insisted there will still be opposition in the House of Commons despite the Conservatives suffering a “historic” loss at last weeks election, as Labour engages with the proper scrutiny procedures.

    “The adults are back in the room”, Darren Jones, chief secretary to the Treasury, added.


    https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2024/07/08/labour-frontbencher-darren-jones-the-adults-are-back-in-the-room/

    It didn't need long for its usage to change from smugness to mockery.
    They should have said "the adults are back in the room, but the room belongs to Lord Alli, and we're only pretending it is Keir's home, because Keir's wife refuses to let Keir back in the room, until he gets Lord Alli to buy her lingerie. I hope that's clear"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,176
    edited November 23
    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,758
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy

    Pep is the Alex Ferguson of his generation, simply the best. But I think he needs a break, a year or so out of the game to regroup. This is extraordinary.
    Hasn't he just signed for another 2 years ?
    Yes, but he's mentally exhausted. He needs a break,
    Enzo Maresca may well overtake him soon, his former deputy.

    Not that I thought Chelsea particularly good today, even my pisspoor team pushed them at times.

    If Maresca signs our goalie (he brought him to Leicester) then his jigsaw will be complete.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    You asked where the 'adults in the room' meme came from.

    A Labour frontbencher has insisted there will still be opposition in the House of Commons despite the Conservatives suffering a “historic” loss at last weeks election, as Labour engages with the proper scrutiny procedures.

    “The adults are back in the room”, Darren Jones, chief secretary to the Treasury, added.


    https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2024/07/08/labour-frontbencher-darren-jones-the-adults-are-back-in-the-room/

    It didn't need long for its usage to change from smugness to mockery.
    I don't like that phrase myself tbh. It's off-putting.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,758

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    edited November 23
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Wales still in this, incredibly

    IANAE of the game with the oddly shaped balls but they look miles behind to me.
    I said that after the Welsh kept SA at bay for a brilliant 7 mins at the beginning of half 2. Then that ended

    Still, I don't think SA will put 50 points on them, unlike Australia. It's a painful drubbing but it's not quite apocalyptic
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Means the tractor tax and WFA cuts would be dead though as Labour would need LD confidence and supply to stay in office and the LDs reject the tractor tax and WFA cuts
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
  • Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Early days but the trend is not favouring Labour at present
  • City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy

    COYS! :grin:

    Hopefully City's run of form can continue through to Anfield next Sunday.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    That's what you WISH, but it's Utopian nonsense
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I think you've got left populism the wrong way around. It'll keep the xenophobia but will be lefty in economics. Like, basically, LePenism.
    I'm not in for that. That's not the way.
  • City 0 Spurs 3

    Liverpool must be in ecstacy

    COYS! :grin:

    Hopefully City's run of form can continue through to Anfield next Sunday.
    They are poor today
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283
    edited November 23
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
    Too old fashioned. 70s throwbacks. We need something contemporary.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,898
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Wales still in this, incredibly

    IANAE of the game with the oddly shaped balls but they look miles behind to me.
    I said that after the Welsh kept SA at bay for a brilliant 7 mins at the beginning of half 2. Then that ended

    Still, I don't think SA will put 50 points on them, unlike Australia. It's a painful drubbing but it's not quite apocalyptic
    Not entirely confident of that. I am watching the football but Wales must be exhausted and the Springboks seem hungry for more.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,777
    edited November 23
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    The variable seems to be your level of acceptance rather than the policies themselves.

    The same level of brutality will suddenly become acceptable as soon as it comes under the banner of international cooperation and has a nice EU or UN flag attached to it instead of an ugly British one.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,815
    A bit of Saturday night diversion as I wait for a nice fish supper delivery:


    All The Right Movies
    @ATRightMovies
    Some of the many actresses who audititoned to play Princess Leia in STAR WARS, including Carrie Fisher.

    https://x.com/ATRightMovies/status/1860065722849804503
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Means the tractor tax and WFA cuts would be dead though as Labour would need LD confidence and supply to stay in office and the LDs reject the tractor tax and WFA cuts
    The tractor tax yes but not the WFP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    edited November 23

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Means the tractor tax and WFA cuts would be dead though as Labour would need LD confidence and supply to stay in office and the LDs reject the tractor tax and WFA cuts
    The tractor tax yes but not the WFP
    No, both (LDs rarely miss the oppportunity to jump on a populist bandwagon against an unpopular government or council policy, see also their local Nimbyism). The LDs would also want closer alignment to the EEA


    https://www.libdems.org.uk/press/release/winter-fuel-allowance-govt-must-reverse-course-immediately
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I think you've got left populism the wrong way around. It'll keep the xenophobia but will be lefty in economics. Like, basically, LePenism.
    I'm not in for that. That's not the way.
    It's the only choice for the Left. Voters will not support a welfare state if they know they have to share it - a decreasing pie - with a never ending influx of migrants who have not even contributed to it

    It's that basic. Economists have noted this phenomenon for decades, it is now becoming reality

    America is a rightwing country because it is a country with high immigration. European countries could be much more leftwing because they had low immigration; not any more
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,176
    edited November 23
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Means the tractor tax and WFA cuts would be dead though as Labour would need LD confidence and supply to stay in office and the LDs reject the tractor tax and WFA cuts
    The tractor tax yes but not the WFP
    No, both. The LDs would also want closer alignment to the EEA


    https://www.libdems.org.uk/press/release/winter-fuel-allowance-govt-must-reverse-course-immediately
    No - the WFP will not be resurrected in 4 years, there will be far more important demands on the economy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
    Too old fashioned. 70s throwbacks. We need something contemporary.
    Either you believe in socialism or you don't, it is religion like Christianity and Islam basically
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,176
    edited November 23
    Here's something that will meet with @TSE approval

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860017728465383821?t=8hMRUSJXfWQe-HLhrDWw5g&s=19

    I think Reform were using it to claim they would win Yvette Cooper's seat
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,399
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
    Too old fashioned. 70s throwbacks. We need something contemporary.
    Surely, Left Populism is something akin to the Danish Social Democrats. They are genuinely Left, but they have Europe’s most stringent immigration policies, and are unyielding in support of Ukraine (Denmark’s military aid, per capita is the highest of any country).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,884
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I think you've got left populism the wrong way around. It'll keep the xenophobia but will be lefty in economics. Like, basically, LePenism.
    I'm not in for that. That's not the way.
    No, you're not - but that's what Left Populism will be like.

    What you're hoping for is left unpopulism. Which is basically what we have right now.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,777
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
    Too old fashioned. 70s throwbacks. We need something contemporary.
    Your political pinup girl should be the Danish social democrat Mette Frederiksen.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    The variable seems to be your level of acceptance rather than the policies themselves.

    The same level of brutality will suddenly become acceptable as soon as it comes under the banner of international cooperation and has a nice EU or UN flag attached to it instead of an ugly British one.
    This implies I'm shallow. Uncalled for.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
    Too old fashioned. 70s throwbacks. We need something contemporary.
    Surely, Left Populism is something akin to the Danish Social Democrats. They are genuinely Left, but they have Europe’s most stringent immigration policies, and are unyielding in support of Ukraine (Denmark’s military aid, per capita is the highest of any country).
    And, notably, they are electorally successful. They just won an election

    Which proves that the Left CAN win (as I say) but only if they adopt hard right policies on migration and asylum
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,859
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    Pie in the sky idealism. Not saying it won't happen but then many other things could happen as well.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    The variable seems to be your level of acceptance rather than the policies themselves.

    The same level of brutality will suddenly become acceptable as soon as it comes under the banner of international cooperation and has a nice EU or UN flag attached to it instead of an ugly British one.
    This implies I'm shallow. Uncalled for.
    Entirely called for.

    Nothing is more acceptable because its "internationalist" in nature.

    The USSR was "internationalist" - it was also an oppressive, repressive, backwards dictatorship.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,169
    edited November 23
    Who are the best 2 teams in the world rugby at the moment....

    South Africa and South Africa Reserves

    I think their 3rd team probably in with a good shout as well.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,283
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    That's what you WISH, but it's Utopian nonsense
    Of course it isn't. Enlightened self-interest via collective cooperation is one of human history's defining forces. We'd be nothing without it.
  • City 0 Spurs 4

    Would you believe it !!!!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,450
    Omnium said:

    I just got an email from the editor of the Times to thank me for subscribing. It didn't even bother to have the text of thank you and his 'yours sincerely' and his name. Just a link to an image.

    Having dispensed with the Telegraph given their increasing desire to rant right, I was hoping that the Times would offer something better. At first evidence it seems that I'm going to have to be newspaperless in the future.

    I've been paperless 20 years and I don't miss it.

    You get more news more quickly from PB, and the commentary is usually better informed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538

    Who are the best 2 teams in the world rugby at the moment....

    South Africa and South Africa Reserves

    I think their 3rd team probably in with a good shout as well.

    I disagree, I think the Aussies are suddenly showing real promise

    What is truly depressing is that the entire northern hemisphere has gone backwards, with the possible exception of France, but even they only scraped a win at home against the Kiwis

  • City been beaten 5 times in a row, first time under Pep
  • City 0 Spurs 4

    Would you believe it !!!!

    Five points, a game in hand and 10 goal difference lead too.

    I'll take that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,777
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    That's what you WISH, but it's Utopian nonsense
    Of course it isn't. Enlightened self-interest via collective cooperation is one of human history's defining forces. We'd be nothing without it.
    At the end of the day there are always intractable conflicting interests, no matter how much you might want to wish them away.
  • City been beaten 5 times in a row, first time under Pep

    They're probably lucky that they have a European fixture midweek or there's a very big chance that'd become 6.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    City 0 Spurs 4

    Would you believe it !!!!

    The best thing about a big home defeat is the away fans singing

    "Is There A Fire Drill?"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    It already has, see Corbyn, Melenchon and Sanders and Lula
    Too old fashioned. 70s throwbacks. We need something contemporary.
    Surely, Left Populism is something akin to the Danish Social Democrats. They are genuinely Left, but they have Europe’s most stringent immigration policies, and are unyielding in support of Ukraine (Denmark’s military aid, per capita is the highest of any country).
    And, notably, they are electorally successful. They just won an election

    Which proves that the Left CAN win (as I say) but only if they adopt hard right policies on migration and asylum
    Yes most western voters want protectionism, even tariffs, slashed immigration, more public spending on health and education and the police and key public services and tax cuts for them but not the rich or big corporates and less woke.

    What they mostly don't want is free market globalism and woke at the moment
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,169
    edited November 23
    Leon said:

    Who are the best 2 teams in the world rugby at the moment....

    South Africa and South Africa Reserves

    I think their 3rd team probably in with a good shout as well.

    I disagree, I think the Aussies are suddenly showing real promise

    What is truly depressing is that the entire northern hemisphere has gone backwards, with the possible exception of France, but even they only scraped a win at home against the Kiwis

    You are forgetting a) this wasn't the full strength SA team that came over and b) they mixed and matched in each game....

    Their strength is depth is so strong the best centre in the Gallagher Premiership doesn't even get anywhere near the squad. There are calls to get Benhard Janse van Rensburg in the England as soon as he qualifies.

    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/rugby-union/article/benhard-janse-van-rensburg-england-bristol-bears-gpnkx0r0g
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,238
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I have seen you suggest this a couple of times and I don't really get it. Left populism would be an utter disaster for all of us (see Venezuela for an obvious example).

    Populism is the enemy of progress, both of the left and right variety, and I think of you as a progressive. What's going on?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,246

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Means the tractor tax and WFA cuts would be dead though as Labour would need LD confidence and supply to stay in office and the LDs reject the tractor tax and WFA cuts
    The tractor tax yes but not the WFP
    No, both. The LDs would also want closer alignment to the EEA


    https://www.libdems.org.uk/press/release/winter-fuel-allowance-govt-must-reverse-course-immediately
    No - the WFP will not be resurrected in 4 years, there will be far more important demands on the economy
    It will given on that poll the LDs will have Starmer's head over a barrel if he wants to stay in power and pass any laws
  • Omnium said:

    I just got an email from the editor of the Times to thank me for subscribing. It didn't even bother to have the text of thank you and his 'yours sincerely' and his name. Just a link to an image.

    Having dispensed with the Telegraph given their increasing desire to rant right, I was hoping that the Times would offer something better. At first evidence it seems that I'm going to have to be newspaperless in the future.

    The only news site you need is FT.com
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538

    Leon said:

    Who are the best 2 teams in the world rugby at the moment....

    South Africa and South Africa Reserves

    I think their 3rd team probably in with a good shout as well.

    I disagree, I think the Aussies are suddenly showing real promise

    What is truly depressing is that the entire northern hemisphere has gone backwards, with the possible exception of France, but even they only scraped a win at home against the Kiwis

    You are forgetting a) this wasn't the full strength SA team that came over and b) they mixed and matched in each game....

    Their strength is depth is so strong the best centre in the Gallagher Premiership doesn't even get anywhere near the team.
    I'm not denying they are formidable. Given their culture and talent-pool they threaten to become the new All Blacks, winning everything for a decade or two
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538
    maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I have seen you suggest this a couple of times and I don't really get it. Left populism would be an utter disaster for all of us (see Venezuela for an obvious example).

    Populism is the enemy of progress, both of the left and right variety, and I think of you as a progressive. What's going on?
    @kinabalu is in despair that Starmer's Labour are so obviously shite. And that Trump has won

    I can sympathise, it's a nasty double blow
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Who are the best 2 teams in the world rugby at the moment....

    South Africa and South Africa Reserves

    I think their 3rd team probably in with a good shout as well.

    I disagree, I think the Aussies are suddenly showing real promise

    What is truly depressing is that the entire northern hemisphere has gone backwards, with the possible exception of France, but even they only scraped a win at home against the Kiwis

    You are forgetting a) this wasn't the full strength SA team that came over and b) they mixed and matched in each game....

    Their strength is depth is so strong the best centre in the Gallagher Premiership doesn't even get anywhere near the team.
    I'm not denying they are formidable. Given their culture and talent-pool they threaten to become the new All Blacks, winning everything for a decade or two
    And the small matter of the best coach in world rugby.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Election Maps sees Labour projected to lose its majorly for the first time

    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1860397952432239094?t=X7Xpr44lWLEX4PVG1LHJ8w&s=19

    A long way short for the Tories though.
    Means the tractor tax and WFA cuts would be dead though as Labour would need LD confidence and supply to stay in office and the LDs reject the tractor tax and WFA cuts
    The tractor tax yes but not the WFP
    No, both. The LDs would also want closer alignment to the EEA


    https://www.libdems.org.uk/press/release/winter-fuel-allowance-govt-must-reverse-course-immediately
    No - the WFP will not be resurrected in 4 years, there will be far more important demands on the economy
    It will given on that poll the LDs will have Starmer's head over a barrel if he wants to stay in power and pass any laws
    It's nearly 5 years away and there will be other priorities

    You have a problem assuming polls and opinions will survive the passage of time, even years, when they won't
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,538

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Who are the best 2 teams in the world rugby at the moment....

    South Africa and South Africa Reserves

    I think their 3rd team probably in with a good shout as well.

    I disagree, I think the Aussies are suddenly showing real promise

    What is truly depressing is that the entire northern hemisphere has gone backwards, with the possible exception of France, but even they only scraped a win at home against the Kiwis

    You are forgetting a) this wasn't the full strength SA team that came over and b) they mixed and matched in each game....

    Their strength is depth is so strong the best centre in the Gallagher Premiership doesn't even get anywhere near the team.
    I'm not denying they are formidable. Given their culture and talent-pool they threaten to become the new All Blacks, winning everything for a decade or two
    And the small matter of the best coach in world rugby.
    The only countries that might challenge them medium term are England and France, because they have the money and depth of talent. But England are drifting with a dire coach and France are sporadic (as ever)
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,238

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    Actually, to further the debate, and to reward you for doing your earnest if not impressive best, you do have half a point

    There really is room for a new Left Populism, and it will come. But I doubt you will like it. Because, to prosper, it will have to be really rightwing on migration and asylum, that's the only way it will work

    Once it has made that compromise with the voters, there is room for a New Left to be radical on taxes, state ownership, and all the other stuff you like. It could win. See the success of this new German left party

    "The Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance – Reason and Justice (German: Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht – Vernunft und Gerechtigkeit [beː.ɛsˈveː], BSW) is a political party in Germany founded on 8 January 2024. It has been described as left-wing populist, left-wing nationalist, socialist, culturally conservative, socially conservative and Eurosceptic"
    No, it will need to be internationalist. That's the only way to solve people movement without unacceptable brutality. Enlightened cooperation between countries.
    That's what you WISH, but it's Utopian nonsense
    Of course it isn't. Enlightened self-interest via collective cooperation is one of human history's defining forces. We'd be nothing without it.
    At the end of the day there are always intractable conflicting interests, no matter how much you might want to wish them away.
    No, on this Kinabalu is right.
    We'll get to a point where we accept that global cooperation on migration and climate adaptation (and these will increasingly merge as policy areas) benefits us all.
    I suspect we'll have a big war before we realise this, though.
  • maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Are international institutions breaking down?

    COP29, which started badly with plenty of no shows, is now on the verge of a complete breakdown, and that's on top of the Commonwealth hustle and FUBAR last month:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c8jykpdgr08t

    If they are, and I fear they may well be, then our descendants are basically fucked. The high point of international cooperation has been and gone, and the future is one of nationalist insanity and environmental destruction.
    Darwin got it all wrong. We're regressing.
    Evolution is not teleological. Darwin never said it always means "progress or improvement"
    Yes, things can zig zag. I know that.

    Anyway, as I now keep saying to all and sundry, Left Populism is coming. A radical economic offer for the struggling classes without the tacky xenophobic nostalgia that defines the right wing version.

    It won't get funded by billionaires (for obvious reasons) but that won't matter once it gets rolling. I'm in. ✊️🕺

    (please refrain from the very tedious "lol" if you choose to reply, which you shouldn't feel you have to)
    I have seen you suggest this a couple of times and I don't really get it. Left populism would be an utter disaster for all of us (see Venezuela for an obvious example).

    Populism is the enemy of progress, both of the left and right variety, and I think of you as a progressive. What's going on?
    It depends what is meant by this.
    I don't think Bernie Sanders would be a disaster, for instance. He"s a very bright populist, with vision.
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