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That’s Life? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,179
edited November 20 in General
imageThat’s Life? – politicalbetting.com

In Britain since the 1961 Suicide Act, a person can choose the time and manner of their death without being criminalised (if they fail). Plenty (mostly men) do so: 6,069 suicides in 2023, up on 5,642 in 2022, the highest rate since 1999. The data and analysis can be found here and here. There are some people who are unable to do so because of their almost total physical incapacity. Worth noting that all the very sad court cases brought to change the law have involved such people seeking legal approval for someone to do to them what they are unable to do for themselves. Not for those with the ability to commit suicide.

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Comments

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    First like Trump.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Miss Cyclefree, thanks for this interesting article.

    I'm broadly in favour of the concept of assisted dying, but the fact there's a vote without knowing the details is not reassuring.
  • You say there's an unseemly rush but vote won't be for third reading, will it?

    There are things that I'd like to see amended from this Bill, like the absurd 6 month restriction. Anyone for any reason, like those living in chronic conditions that could last for years, ought to be able to choose to end their life with dignity if that is their choice of their own free will.

    But there's no reason why this shouldn't proceed at second reading and through the amendment process within Parliament to be improved upon.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,545
    Interesting header, thanks.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,183
    It's great to have @Cyclefree back. The cynic in me wonders if Labour are rushing this through because they don't want to risk spending a lot of time on it only to lose. This way, Starmer can say to Rantzen, "we tried..."
  • I'd make two points on this troubling topic:

    1) I enjoy life. I enjoy going out, walking, running, visiting places. I enjoy reading, watching TV, and having fun with my family. If I get myself into such a state that I can no longer do these things, where I am in pain, where I cannot wipe my own bum, or move, and there is minimal chance of recovery, then I would choose death.

    2) When animals are in pain and are suffering, we put them down compassionately. We are far less compassionate towards people's suffering.

    Under the current situation we actively want people to suffer. That is, in my view, immoral. I also suspect it puts doctors into a rather difficult situation, and causes some to end suffering.

    That's not to say that this bill is the right one, and there are not big potential issues with assisted dying. But there are massive moral issues with forcing people who are suffering with no chance of recovery, often in pain, to live in that pain. And no, pain relief often doesn't work that well.

    Well said.

    As a nation of animal lovers we treat our pets, who can not communicate their choice, with more dignity in death than we do our fellow men and women who can communicate their own desires.
  • I also don't agree with comparing suicide and assisted dying. There are often similarities, but often big differences. They are distinct.

    Well said again.

    Suicide attempts are often a cry for help, or a break in a moment.

    Assisted dying is completely different and being regulated has essentially a built in cooling off period to ensure this is actually somebodies desired will.

    If you want to (fallaciously) compare the two then getting people from unregulated taking actions in their own way through to a thoughtful, considered process with a cooling off period is essentially a part of suicide prevention, not it's antithesis.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.
  • Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Young people in this country choose to end it all, not just Canada.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    It's also a topic where religion needs to keep its nose well out.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    FPT…
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    MPs have voted by 378 votes to just 41 to keep C of E Bishops in the Lords and defeat Williamson's amendment.

    Sadly though the Government's Bill to remove the hereditary peers was passed by a majority of 362
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/11/12/bishops-justin-welby-house-of-lords/

    In general I tend to prefer contributions from the hereditary peers to the appointed members of the HoL.
    That’s interesting. Maybe there should be some way where your preference could input into deciding who goes into the HoL. What about if we had a bunch of people who might go to the Lords and you, me and everyone else got to indicate who we would prefer?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    Yes that’s all very well - and I do take Ms @Cyclefree’s cogent points about sanctifying life and protecting the vulnerable - but the fact is, in the last hour here in Surigao island in the southern Philippines I literally just invented a cocktail. Literally. About 25 minutes ago and now I’m sipping it in a £6000 designer hammock staring at a palm tree

    Honestly sometimes PB is a such a navel gazing self obsessed freakshow. A clucking henhouse of narcissists. Sometimes - like me - you have to go far around the world to glamorous hotels and invent cocktails - like I just did, literally, just now - to see how petty PB is, and how egocentric

    I’m sorry to be blunt but sometimes the bitter truth is the only medicine. Or maybe a really good clever new cocktail
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,405
    A thoughtful header.

    Assisted dying is something that sounds humane, but which is not, in practice.
  • FPT: @cyclefree @BatteryCorrectHorse - summary of the "What is a woman?" supreme court case: https://knowingius.org/p/uk-supreme-court-to-decide-what-is
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    edited November 13

    It's also a topic where religion needs to keep its nose well out.

    Not many topics left where religion should have its collective hooter anywhere near really. The form of ritual when ‘our’ newly coronated monarch abases himself before the great fairy in the sky? Pious waffling on R4?
    Certainly not oversight of the care of vulnerable people and kids.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209

    I'd make two points on this troubling topic:

    1) I enjoy life. I enjoy going out, walking, running, visiting places. I enjoy reading, watching TV, and having fun with my family. If I get myself into such a state that I can no longer do these things, where I am in pain, where I cannot wipe my own bum, or move, and there is minimal chance of recovery, then I would choose death.

    2) When animals are in pain and are suffering, we put them down compassionately. We are far less compassionate towards people's suffering.

    Under the current situation we actively want people to suffer. That is, in my view, immoral. I also suspect it puts doctors into a rather difficult situation, and causes some to end suffering.

    That's not to say that this bill is the right one, and there are not big potential issues with assisted dying. But there are massive moral issues with forcing people who are suffering with no chance of recovery, often in pain, to live in that pain. And no, pain relief often doesn't work that well.

    Life is complicated and there are lots of different ways our lives can end. However, many of the people in the situation you describe, particularly those who are days or less away from death, currently come under the existing compromise, the doctrine of double effect. That is, they are given high doses of opioids as pain killers, but in the knowledge that those drugs will also hasten the individual’s death. We pretend the latter is an unintended but acceptable side-effect of the former, although in practice it is often very much intended.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    Sean_F said:

    A thoughtful header.

    Assisted dying is something that sounds humane, but which is not, in practice.

    I disagree, especially when you consider that the current situation is far from humane.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    The vote on Friday is a second reading. The real question is how much time would then be given by the government to allow a detailed committee stage with plenty of time for revisals and considered adjustments. I fear that the answer to that is not much. This is legislation by gimmick and the danger is that it is then rushed through its later stages.

    In principle, I am in favour of assisted dying. I don't really agree with the point that this bill only relates to those who are unable to do it to themselves. Many would rightly fear making a mess of it or causing unnecessary stress in others, such as the poor train drivers. I also have less concerns than many about those feeling a burden. Pointless, painful ongoing life is a burden not just on those with the moral duty of caring but on the person themselves.

    In short, if I was an MP and assured that there will be time for proper scrutiny I would be inclined to vote yes but if I did not get that assurance (and very little has been said about it so far, at least as far as I have seen) I would vote no.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    I support assisted dying and hope the bill passes. It's a step in the right direction but just a small step as, from the header, 'must be likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor' limits its use massively. This is the key point.

    Worries about coercion seems overdone when lifespan is so short anyway. And what of quality of life within those six months? We keep people alive for the sake of it.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    I'd make two points on this troubling topic:

    1) I enjoy life. I enjoy going out, walking, running, visiting places. I enjoy reading, watching TV, and having fun with my family. If I get myself into such a state that I can no longer do these things, where I am in pain, where I cannot wipe my own bum, or move, and there is minimal chance of recovery, then I would choose death.

    2) When animals are in pain and are suffering, we put them down compassionately. We are far less compassionate towards people's suffering.

    Under the current situation we actively want people to suffer. That is, in my view, immoral. I also suspect it puts doctors into a rather difficult situation, and causes some to end suffering.

    That's not to say that this bill is the right one, and there are not big potential issues with assisted dying. But there are massive moral issues with forcing people who are suffering with no chance of recovery, often in pain, to live in that pain. And no, pain relief often doesn't work that well.

    Life is complicated and there are lots of different ways our lives can end. However, many of the people in the situation you describe, particularly those who are days or less away from death, currently come under the existing compromise, the doctrine of double effect. That is, they are given high doses of opioids as pain killers, but in the knowledge that those drugs will also hasten the individual’s death. We pretend the latter is an unintended but acceptable side-effect of the former, although in practice it is often very much intended.
    Don't doctors risk being charged with murder or manslaughter in that situation?

    I'd much rather what they do in that situation to be formalised and under due process, than doctors decide on their own.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    @Cyclefree You are against this bill but are you against assisted dying in principle? As a liberal I would have assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you would supportive if drafting and safeguards were better?
  • Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Correct, Sandy. There are also some disturbing cases involving the wish to avoid IHT.

    It's a superb piece by Cyclefree, and if nothing else indicates the need to pause,and think, and make careful decisions.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,607
    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    edited November 13
    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557

    End of hereditary peers:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0rg98rl9p2o

    I'd sooner toss hundreds of political appointees out, but there we are.

    A sad day. Many of the hereditaries do an excellent job.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    They'll find 'efficiencies' that give them and their friends lots of money, and which hurts millions of poorer people, the environment, and the country.

    In other words, it'll be theft on a massive scale.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230

    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.

    This bill limits use to someone who is likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor. It's for the terminally ill, not the same as suicide.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,300
    edited November 13
    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    On topic, I'm not sure what I think about this issue, but I don't like the bill as drafted. If it is to go through it needs extensive review and debate over many months. It's that important.

    I am worried about placing a duty on the NHS to make this service available, and one wonders how much NHS and social care budget pressures might be passively influencing its urgency.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,949
    Can't be just disestablish the CofE, and be rid of it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    If not now, when ?

    The header is effectively a well argued case for the long grass. Something of which Cyclefree is not regularly a fan.

    The Lords is one of the largest revising chambers in the world. I would guess there are a couple of bodies on their benches capable of addressing some of the admirably detailed lacunae in the bill.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Wasn’t the original abortion legislation designed to be very limited and rare?

    Now we see a quarter of a million abortions every year in the UK.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/470890/legal-abortions-performed-in-england-and-wales/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    One government initiative I welcome - revenue protection are unfriendly and aggressive, and often try and entrap passengers just trying to do the right thing rather than target serial offenders - which makes me wonder if they have "targets" to catch a certain number of "faredodgers" and are incentivised accordingly:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg0l8r3zy1o
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 716
    This is a brilliant header and one I entirely agree with. My own view is that it should be a basic tenant of our society that we don't kill other people. Once you remove that or hedge it with caveats then you place a value on life. Suicide is not the same thing as that is killing ones self.

    I think that the current system is in the right place in that we assume that killing someone else is wrong but don't tend to prosecute people who do it at the request of a terminally I'll person. Maybe there's a way to further codify that understanding.

    My grandmother is elderly and in pain with her hip but she's all there, much loved by all her relatives who see her regularly. She's terrified of being a burden to other people and would be highly suggestible to any doctor who even mentioned assisted suicide.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    Stocky said:

    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.

    This bill limits use to someone who is likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor. It's for the terminally ill, not the same as suicide.
    Yes, the suicide framing is a little disingenuous.
  • It is not really clear what is the basis of the objection in the header, at least on principle, other than that the practical details have not been nailed down.

    That a private member's bill is badly drafted is almost a given since many government bills are badly drafted, at least if the number of amendments is any guide.

    If suicide and attempted suicide are legal, what is the principled objection to assisted suicide? To placing the metaphorical pearl-handled revolver by the hospital bed? Are we to ban the infirm from travel to Switzerland, just in case?

    But yes, I have no real answer to the questions around coercion, or how to judge imminent death (although in practice, many doctors do this every day with varying and probably unmeasured degrees of accuracy: most of us will have experienced that call to come and visit our relatives whose death is thought to be imminent) or how to allow staff to opt out.

    What worries me more in immediate practical terms is that doctors, especially in this post-Shipman age, might be withholding adequate pain relief where death is a possible side effect.

    Afaics ‘assisted suicide’ is already present in treatment, in certain forms anyway. My friend with MND whose life came to end almost exactly two years ago had an assisted death in everything but name. He discussed with his care team exactly what would happen months before his death, that is being taken into a hospice, withdrawal from his respirator which he was completely dependent upon by that point, and whatever heroic amounts of sedation would be needed to reduce discomfort as he asphyxiated. The whole process took less than 36 hours.

    The crime of this bill is that it challenges the great British vice of hypocrisy, attempting to formalise something that everyone knows goes on but would rather avert their eyes from.
    It's not hypocrisy that is the vice here, but the pretence that prolonging someone's death is the same as prolonging their life.
  • Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    They'll find 'efficiencies' that give them and their friends lots of money, and which hurts millions of poorer people, the environment, and the country.

    In other words, it'll be theft on a massive scale.
    Musk said there would be hardship which the media made little of . Of course there will be money to give tax cuts which overwhelmingly favour the rich and add another trillion plus dollars to the debt. The GOP only care about the debt when a Dem is in the WH .
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 542
    Another well-written piece. I'd suggest that unassisted suicide is generally the choice of those who are suffering mental rather than physical health issues (stress, depression etc) hence why there are suicide prevention programmes.
    On the bill the 6 month terminal diagnosis leaves some other groups without recourse.
    1) those in chronic pain that cannot be relieved
    2) those with dementia who contract a secondary serious health condition

    By the latter, I envisage an increasing number of dementia patients who contract cancer, but are not able to remember that and are very distressed by / refuse treatment. Are they to be left to die slowly and painfully from the cancer or forcibly treated when it makes them feel ill?

    A very difficult moral area.
  • End of hereditary peers:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0rg98rl9p2o

    I'd sooner toss hundreds of political appointees out, but there we are.

    A small step in taking back control from our unelected rulers.

    Would you accept hereditary doctors? If not, then you shouldn't accept hereditary parliamentarians.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    https://www.latintimes.com/republican-polo-accident-medical-expenses-obamacare-repeal-michael-grimm-565480

    Disgraced Republican Who Voted to Repeal Obamacare Now Needs Money For Medical Expenses After Polo Accident
  • On topic, is the analogy with the Abortion Act (also a Private Member's Bill, and in the grey area where it wasn't government policy but it wasn't opposed by the government either) relevant?

    How much drafting, redrafting and scrutiny did that get?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,433

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
    You seem to think this is 2 businessmen looking at everything line by line as to whether it's required.

    It's actually going to be 2 businessmen looking at everything line by line as to how to privatise it so they (or their mates) can profit from it...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209

    End of hereditary peers:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0rg98rl9p2o

    I'd sooner toss hundreds of political appointees out, but there we are.

    Hereditary peers are just the great-great grandsons of political appointees.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    Stereodog said:

    This is a brilliant header and one I entirely agree with. My own view is that it should be a basic tenant of our society that we don't kill other people. (Snip)

    You would get rid of the military then? Their entire purpose is to, if necessary, kill other people.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 716
    Stocky said:

    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.

    This bill limits use to someone who is likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor. It's for the terminally ill, not the same as suicide.
    Yes but how long will it stay like that when the principle is established? We've already seen in Canada and Holland that assisted suicide is being extended to those with mental illnesses.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230

    End of hereditary peers:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0rg98rl9p2o

    I'd sooner toss hundreds of political appointees out, but there we are.

    A small step in taking back control from our unelected rulers.

    Would you accept hereditary doctors? If not, then you shouldn't accept hereditary parliamentarians.
    Poor argument. Do you accept a hereditary monarchy?
  • One government initiative I welcome - revenue protection are unfriendly and aggressive, and often try and entrap passengers just trying to do the right thing rather than target serial offenders - which makes me wonder if they have "targets" to catch a certain number of "faredodgers" and are incentivised accordingly:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg0l8r3zy1o

    The ones at Manchester Piccadilly are utter arseholes.

    Northern Trains are often late/cancelled so people have legitimately bought an off peak ticket but arrive at peak time due to delays/cancellations.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,433
    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Actually my point is that it needs time now for an actual debate to sanity check the bill.

    Then we need scrutiny in a year or so time when the revised bill is reintroduced into Parliament.

    This is a private members bill and an important private members bill - it doesn't need to be pushed through in year one of a new Parliament...

  • Stocky said:

    End of hereditary peers:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0rg98rl9p2o

    I'd sooner toss hundreds of political appointees out, but there we are.

    A small step in taking back control from our unelected rulers.

    Would you accept hereditary doctors? If not, then you shouldn't accept hereditary parliamentarians.
    Poor argument. Do you accept a hereditary monarchy?
    I do not.

    I concede I hide my republicanism well.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Mr. Eagles, do you think our current Parliamentarians have, on average, the same degree of intelligence and quality of training for their roles as doctors?

    Do you believe the quality of the Lords will be improved by removing members who owe no favours to party leaders?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Correct, Sandy. There are also some disturbing cases involving the wish to avoid IHT.

    It's a superb piece by Cyclefree, and if nothing else indicates the need to pause,and think, and make careful decisions.
    As she points out, though, we've been doing that for a quarter of a century.

    I can understand outright opposition to the bill, but advocating the long grass seems to me effectively to be the same thing, without saying so.
  • Mr. Eagles, do you think our current Parliamentarians have, on average, the same degree of intelligence and quality of training for their roles as doctors?

    Do you believe the quality of the Lords will be improved by removing members who owe no favours to party leaders?

    If they owe no favours to party leaders why do so many of the hereditaries take the Tory whip?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
    With two billionaires with no experience of public administration running the cost cutting effort, as a part time job, what could possibly go wrong ?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    Stereodog said:

    Stocky said:

    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.

    This bill limits use to someone who is likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor. It's for the terminally ill, not the same as suicide.
    Yes but how long will it stay like that when the principle is established? We've already seen in Canada and Holland that assisted suicide is being extended to those with mental illnesses.
    And so it should. I have a parent with vascular dementia and the other with Alzheimer's. It should be about quality of life not quantity and compliance with a person's wishes. I know what my parent's wishes are (or rather 'were' - when they had mental capacity). And their personal wishes are not being complied with. My mother cannot move, has to be hoisted everywhere, is doubly incontinent, cannot feed herself, cannot speak and almost certainly recognises no-one. Yet she is being prescribed every medication under the sum to prolong her life for as long as possible.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209

    I'd make two points on this troubling topic:

    1) I enjoy life. I enjoy going out, walking, running, visiting places. I enjoy reading, watching TV, and having fun with my family. If I get myself into such a state that I can no longer do these things, where I am in pain, where I cannot wipe my own bum, or move, and there is minimal chance of recovery, then I would choose death.

    2) When animals are in pain and are suffering, we put them down compassionately. We are far less compassionate towards people's suffering.

    Under the current situation we actively want people to suffer. That is, in my view, immoral. I also suspect it puts doctors into a rather difficult situation, and causes some to end suffering.

    That's not to say that this bill is the right one, and there are not big potential issues with assisted dying. But there are massive moral issues with forcing people who are suffering with no chance of recovery, often in pain, to live in that pain. And no, pain relief often doesn't work that well.

    Life is complicated and there are lots of different ways our lives can end. However, many of the people in the situation you describe, particularly those who are days or less away from death, currently come under the existing compromise, the doctrine of double effect. That is, they are given high doses of opioids as pain killers, but in the knowledge that those drugs will also hasten the individual’s death. We pretend the latter is an unintended but acceptable side-effect of the former, although in practice it is often very much intended.
    Don't doctors risk being charged with murder or manslaughter in that situation?

    I'd much rather what they do in that situation to be formalised and under due process, than doctors decide on their own.
    It is very, very commonly done and doctors are very, very rarely charged. There was a 1999 case where the doctor was acquitted, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1115701/ , but that was unusual where the doctor administered a lethal dose all at once. But greater clarity on the law would be welcome.

    Double effect pain medication is somewhat formalised. Doctors don’t decide on their own: they are in discussion with the patient or their relatives if the patient is unconscious.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    edited November 13

    One government initiative I welcome - revenue protection are unfriendly and aggressive, and often try and entrap passengers just trying to do the right thing rather than target serial offenders - which makes me wonder if they have "targets" to catch a certain number of "faredodgers" and are incentivised accordingly:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg0l8r3zy1o

    The ones at Manchester Piccadilly are utter arseholes.

    Northern Trains are often late/cancelled so people have legitimately bought an off peak ticket but arrive at peak time due to delays/cancellations.
    An issue with increasing enforcement is that staff tend to go for the easiest pickings (and I don't blame them, tbh).

    If you're a quiet asian student who hasn't maanged to read all the T&Cs on the railcard - big fine. If you're a 6ft 4in white man in a suit - not checked. If you're a 20-year old jumping the barrier, a blind eye too.

    They seem to exclusively target tourists on the Highland Main Line.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    I'd make two points on this troubling topic:

    1) I enjoy life. I enjoy going out, walking, running, visiting places. I enjoy reading, watching TV, and having fun with my family. If I get myself into such a state that I can no longer do these things, where I am in pain, where I cannot wipe my own bum, or move, and there is minimal chance of recovery, then I would choose death.

    2) When animals are in pain and are suffering, we put them down compassionately. We are far less compassionate towards people's suffering.

    Under the current situation we actively want people to suffer. That is, in my view, immoral. I also suspect it puts doctors into a rather difficult situation, and causes some to end suffering.

    That's not to say that this bill is the right one, and there are not big potential issues with assisted dying. But there are massive moral issues with forcing people who are suffering with no chance of recovery, often in pain, to live in that pain. And no, pain relief often doesn't work that well.

    Life is complicated and there are lots of different ways our lives can end. However, many of the people in the situation you describe, particularly those who are days or less away from death, currently come under the existing compromise, the doctrine of double effect. That is, they are given high doses of opioids as pain killers, but in the knowledge that those drugs will also hasten the individual’s death. We pretend the latter is an unintended but acceptable side-effect of the former, although in practice it is often very much intended.
    Don't doctors risk being charged with murder or manslaughter in that situation?

    I'd much rather what they do in that situation to be formalised and under due process, than doctors decide on their own.
    It is very, very commonly done and doctors are very, very rarely charged. There was a 1999 case where the doctor was acquitted, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1115701/ , but that was unusual where the doctor administered a lethal dose all at once. But greater clarity on the law would be welcome.

    Double effect pain medication is somewhat formalised. Doctors don’t decide on their own: they are in discussion with the patient or their relatives if the patient is unconscious.
    Your last paragraph seems to contain many of the 'problems' that people against assisted dying use against it.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,433

    Mr. Eagles, do you think our current Parliamentarians have, on average, the same degree of intelligence and quality of training for their roles as doctors?

    Do you believe the quality of the Lords will be improved by removing members who owe no favours to party leaders?

    They aren't being asked to be doctors with this act they are being asked to act as lay decision makers for their constituents - it will be a free vote...

    I'm also sure that many constituents will highlight their view points to their MPs and those viewpoints will influence the MPs vote...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,744
    Excellent header and a fully persuasive argument to stop and think
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 716

    Stereodog said:

    This is a brilliant header and one I entirely agree with. My own view is that it should be a basic tenant of our society that we don't kill other people. (Snip)

    You would get rid of the military then? Their entire purpose is to, if necessary, kill other people.
    Fair point. I suppose I'll add 'other than in self defense' to my statement.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Wasn’t the original abortion legislation designed to be very limited and rare?

    Now we see a quarter of a million abortions every year in the UK.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/470890/legal-abortions-performed-in-england-and-wales/
    No. The original abortion legislation was not designed to be very limited and rare. Source: talking to the people who wrote it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,324
    eek said:

    This feels like a time when Christopher Chope will actually be of service as he and his mates talk the bill out of time.

    The idea is a good one but it needs a year of refinement and discussion before going through Parliament, And if it is talked out rather than voted on that would allow it to be refined and reintroduced later..

    That’s what’s odd.

    Why not do what has been done in the past:

    An independent bill, but in government time and will the drafting support of the civil service.

    That way you get a bill that is considered.

    I really don’t like the argument “vote for this even if you disagree and we will fix it later”
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
    I think that Trump is more intent on governing as he campaigned this time, than he was last time.

    Yes, the Department of Education is a big item, given that schools are run by the States themselves and the DoE supplies a small amount of funding in exchange for the schools pushing the DEI agenda. Better to just give the same money they spend now to the States, remove the Washington bureaucracy and reduce the paperwork required by the schools.

    There’s probably a handful of these, where the scope of government can be reduced, but they’ll also need to find many more of the smaller items and hope they all add up to something meaningful.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Regarding your last paragraph,have you missed that this bill is only for people likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor?

    On care costs - my own view is that if I get to the state that permanent care is required then I want to die rather than incurring the expensive care costs that you refer to. Why can't my choice be respected by medical professionals (which need not be the NHS) rather than me having to take matters into my own hands?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,433

    eek said:

    This feels like a time when Christopher Chope will actually be of service as he and his mates talk the bill out of time.

    The idea is a good one but it needs a year of refinement and discussion before going through Parliament, And if it is talked out rather than voted on that would allow it to be refined and reintroduced later..

    That’s what’s odd.

    Why not do what has been done in the past:

    An independent bill, but in government time and will the drafting support of the civil service.

    That way you get a bill that is considered.

    I really don’t like the argument “vote for this even if you disagree and we will fix it later”
    You aren't the only one
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Wasn’t the original abortion legislation designed to be very limited and rare?

    Now we see a quarter of a million abortions every year in the UK.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/470890/legal-abortions-performed-in-england-and-wales/
    No. The original abortion legislation was not designed to be very limited and rare. Source: talking to the people who wrote it.
    That Bill Clinton election soundbite has entered the collective consciousness. That it was never given legislative form doesn't register.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045

    It is not really clear what is the basis of the objection in the header, at least on principle, other than that the practical details have not been nailed down.

    That a private member's bill is badly drafted is almost a given since many government bills are badly drafted, at least if the number of amendments is any guide.

    If suicide and attempted suicide are legal, what is the principled objection to assisted suicide? To placing the metaphorical pearl-handled revolver by the hospital bed? Are we to ban the infirm from travel to Switzerland, just in case?

    But yes, I have no real answer to the questions around coercion, or how to judge imminent death (although in practice, many doctors do this every day with varying and probably unmeasured degrees of accuracy: most of us will have experienced that call to come and visit our relatives whose death is thought to be imminent) or how to allow staff to opt out.

    What worries me more in immediate practical terms is that doctors, especially in this post-Shipman age, might be withholding adequate pain relief where death is a possible side effect.

    Afaics ‘assisted suicide’ is already present in treatment, in certain forms anyway. My friend with MND whose life came to end almost exactly two years ago had an assisted death in everything but name. He discussed with his care team exactly what would happen months before his death, that is being taken into a hospice, withdrawal from his respirator which he was completely dependent upon by that point, and whatever heroic amounts of sedation would be needed to reduce discomfort as he asphyxiated. The whole process took less than 36 hours.

    The crime of this bill is that it challenges the great British vice of hypocrisy, attempting to formalise something that everyone knows goes on but would rather avert their eyes from.
    It's not hypocrisy that is the vice here, but the pretence that prolonging someone's death is the same as prolonging their life.
    I’d argue that this is a kind of hypocrisy, but yes.
    As with so much of what goes on nowadays, it’s become about the personal and the feels. I get eg why disabled people might feel uncomfortable about any such legislation and noisily oppose it, but is their discomfort a valid reason for imposing their view on everyone? Since the proposition is that assistance would only be given when illness is terminal within 6 months, I don’t see why anyone with a lifelong or long term disability would be affected. The argument seems to be that this is the thin end of the wedge which is always a crap argument against anything.
  • Lots of thoughtful and intelligent posts on PB this morning. Much food for thought, especially for those of us who have given the matter a little thought, but not enough. Sadly I have some work to do to day so must opt out for a bit.

    Laters.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
    I think that Trump is more intent on governing as he campaigned this time, than he was last time.

    Yes, the Department of Education is a big item, given that schools are run by the States themselves and the DoE supplies a small amount of funding in exchange for the schools pushing the DEI agenda. Better to just give the same money they spend now to the States, remove the Washington bureaucracy and reduce the paperwork required by the schools.

    There’s probably a handful of these, where the scope of government can be reduced, but they’ll also need to find many more of the smaller items and hope they all add up to something meaningful.
    “Pushing the DEI agenda”? You’re still reading MAGA propaganda.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557

    One government initiative I welcome - revenue protection are unfriendly and aggressive, and often try and entrap passengers just trying to do the right thing rather than target serial offenders - which makes me wonder if they have "targets" to catch a certain number of "faredodgers" and are incentivised accordingly:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg0l8r3zy1o

    The ones at Manchester Piccadilly are utter arseholes.

    Northern Trains are often late/cancelled so people have legitimately bought an off peak ticket but arrive at peak time due to delays/cancellations.
    One commuter once clicked his heels together in front of them and said, "Ausweis Bitte!"

    I must admit I did laugh at that and it coaxed a smile out of one or two others too.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
    I think that Trump is more intent on governing as he campaigned this time, than he was last time.

    Yes, the Department of Education is a big item, given that schools are run by the States themselves and the DoE supplies a small amount of funding in exchange for the schools pushing the DEI agenda. Better to just give the same money they spend now to the States, remove the Washington bureaucracy and reduce the paperwork required by the schools.

    There’s probably a handful of these, where the scope of government can be reduced, but they’ll also need to find many more of the smaller items and hope they all add up to something meaningful.
    The news we have so far suggest that his appointments are based largely on personal loyalty to Trump.
    Something which runs counter to the US oath of office, which stipulates loyalty only to the constitution.

    The same principle seems to be about to be applied to the military.

    Trump draft executive order would set up board to oust generals en masse

    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4987537-trump-draft-executive-order-would-set-up-board-to-oust-generals-report/
    The transition team for President-elect Trump is working on an executive order that would speed up the firing of top military brass if signed, The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday.
    The draft executive order would set up a “warrior board” of retired generals and noncommissioned officers given power to review three- and four-star officers and to recommend anyone “lacking in requisite leadership qualities,” according to the document, reviewed by the Journal.
    If signed by Trump once he takes office, it could allow the quick removal of generals and admirals and purge the ranks of those the future commander-in-chief takes issue with for whatever reason...

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    geoffw said:

    Excellent header and a fully persuasive argument to stop and think

    About this Bill, maybe, but what of the principle?

    I repeat - this is only for those with life expectancies of a max of six months. I'm really surprised that so many are against it. I would have expected a slam-duck with the exception of those who are religiously inclined.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    edited November 13
    geoffw said:

    Excellent header and a fully persuasive argument to stop and think

    It is well argued, but am not fully persuaded.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    edited November 13
    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Regarding your last paragraph,have you missed that this bill is only for people likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor?

    On care costs - my own view is that if I get to the state that permanent care is required then I want to die rather than incurring the expensive care costs that you refer to. Why can't my choice be respected by medical professionals (which need not be the NHS) rather than me having to take matters into my own hands?
    The last 12 months of life are certainly the most expensive, from a fiscal perspective. That's why demographic factors aren't quite as important as you might expect - you only die once, as it were.

    But that's also why I don't think assisted dying (6 month rule) would save much. Many of the end-of-life costs that are incurred would remain, with the addition of the legal issues that would come with it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    edited November 13

    It is not really clear what is the basis of the objection in the header, at least on principle, other than that the practical details have not been nailed down.

    That a private member's bill is badly drafted is almost a given since many government bills are badly drafted, at least if the number of amendments is any guide.

    If suicide and attempted suicide are legal, what is the principled objection to assisted suicide? To placing the metaphorical pearl-handled revolver by the hospital bed? Are we to ban the infirm from travel to Switzerland, just in case?

    But yes, I have no real answer to the questions around coercion, or how to judge imminent death (although in practice, many doctors do this every day with varying and probably unmeasured degrees of accuracy: most of us will have experienced that call to come and visit our relatives whose death is thought to be imminent) or how to allow staff to opt out.

    What worries me more in immediate practical terms is that doctors, especially in this post-Shipman age, might be withholding adequate pain relief where death is a possible side effect.

    Afaics ‘assisted suicide’ is already present in treatment, in certain forms anyway. My friend with MND whose life came to end almost exactly two years ago had an assisted death in everything but name. He discussed with his care team exactly what would happen months before his death, that is being taken into a hospice, withdrawal from his respirator which he was completely dependent upon by that point, and whatever heroic amounts of sedation would be needed to reduce discomfort as he asphyxiated. The whole process took less than 36 hours.

    The crime of this bill is that it challenges the great British vice of hypocrisy, attempting to formalise something that everyone knows goes on but would rather avert their eyes from.
    It's not hypocrisy that is the vice here, but the pretence that prolonging someone's death is the same as prolonging their life.
    I’d argue that this is a kind of hypocrisy, but yes.
    As with so much of what goes on nowadays, it’s become about the personal and the feels. I get eg why disabled people might feel uncomfortable about any such legislation and noisily oppose it, but is their discomfort a valid reason for imposing their view on everyone? Since the proposition is that assistance would only be given when illness is terminal within 6 months, I don’t see why anyone with a lifelong or long term disability would be affected. The argument seems to be that this is the thin end of the wedge which is always a crap argument against anything.
    As cyclefree noted, we can’t tell reliably tell who is terminal within 6 months. My aunt was diagnosed as terminal within 6 months about 5 years ago, for example, and she is doing fine. I don’t see this as an insuperable problem, but we need to be conscious of it.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 716
    Stocky said:

    Stereodog said:

    Stocky said:

    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.

    This bill limits use to someone who is likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor. It's for the terminally ill, not the same as suicide.
    Yes but how long will it stay like that when the principle is established? We've already seen in Canada and Holland that assisted suicide is being extended to those with mental illnesses.
    And so it should. I have a parent with vascular dementia and the other with Alzheimer's. It should be about quality of life not quantity and compliance with a person's wishes. I know what my parent's wishes are (or rather 'were' - when they had mental capacity). And their personal wishes are not being complied with. My mother cannot move, has to be hoisted everywhere, is doubly incontinent, cannot feed herself, cannot speak and almost certainly recognises no-one. Yet she is being prescribed every medication under the sum to prolong her life for as long as possible.
    I'm very sorry to hear that Stocky and I suppose our own experiences with loved ones colour our views on this debate.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Wasn’t the original abortion legislation designed to be very limited and rare?

    Now we see a quarter of a million abortions every year in the UK.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/470890/legal-abortions-performed-in-england-and-wales/
    No. The original abortion legislation was not designed to be very limited and rare. Source: talking to the people who wrote it.
    That Bill Clinton election soundbite has entered the collective consciousness. That it was never given legislative form doesn't register.
    ?? I and Sandpit were discussing the UK situation. What Clinton soundbite do you mean?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Wasn’t the original abortion legislation designed to be very limited and rare?

    Now we see a quarter of a million abortions every year in the UK.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/470890/legal-abortions-performed-in-england-and-wales/
    No. The original abortion legislation was not designed to be very limited and rare. Source: talking to the people who wrote it.
    That Bill Clinton election soundbite has entered the collective consciousness. That it was never given legislative form doesn't register.
    ?? I and Sandpit were discussing the UK situation. What Clinton soundbite do you mean?
    "Safe, legal and rare" - regularly rolled out here.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    Stereodog said:

    Stocky said:

    Stereodog said:

    Stocky said:

    There have been a few times in my life when I have felt so bad that I have wanted to die. When I felt that I did not deserve to live, that the world would be improved by removing myself from it.

    One of the factors that prevented me from following through on this was struggling to think of how to die without being even more troublesome to the world I would leave behind. Suicide inevitably creates a mess.

    One thing that makes me incredibly nervous about assisted dying is that it would open up an avenue where those problems would be dealt with. I could imagine feeling some relief at accepting the offer of an assisted death, and having professionals to help me with it. This makes me feel very unsafe.

    This bill limits use to someone who is likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor. It's for the terminally ill, not the same as suicide.
    Yes but how long will it stay like that when the principle is established? We've already seen in Canada and Holland that assisted suicide is being extended to those with mental illnesses.
    And so it should. I have a parent with vascular dementia and the other with Alzheimer's. It should be about quality of life not quantity and compliance with a person's wishes. I know what my parent's wishes are (or rather 'were' - when they had mental capacity). And their personal wishes are not being complied with. My mother cannot move, has to be hoisted everywhere, is doubly incontinent, cannot feed herself, cannot speak and almost certainly recognises no-one. Yet she is being prescribed every medication under the sum to prolong her life for as long as possible.
    I'm very sorry to hear that Stocky and I suppose our own experiences with loved ones colour our views on this debate.
    Thanks but not really. My beliefs on assisted dying (in favour) were held well before our personal tragedies.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 716

    It is not really clear what is the basis of the objection in the header, at least on principle, other than that the practical details have not been nailed down.

    That a private member's bill is badly drafted is almost a given since many government bills are badly drafted, at least if the number of amendments is any guide.

    If suicide and attempted suicide are legal, what is the principled objection to assisted suicide? To placing the metaphorical pearl-handled revolver by the hospital bed? Are we to ban the infirm from travel to Switzerland, just in case?

    But yes, I have no real answer to the questions around coercion, or how to judge imminent death (although in practice, many doctors do this every day with varying and probably unmeasured degrees of accuracy: most of us will have experienced that call to come and visit our relatives whose death is thought to be imminent) or how to allow staff to opt out.

    What worries me more in immediate practical terms is that doctors, especially in this post-Shipman age, might be withholding adequate pain relief where death is a possible side effect.

    Afaics ‘assisted suicide’ is already present in treatment, in certain forms anyway. My friend with MND whose life came to end almost exactly two years ago had an assisted death in everything but name. He discussed with his care team exactly what would happen months before his death, that is being taken into a hospice, withdrawal from his respirator which he was completely dependent upon by that point, and whatever heroic amounts of sedation would be needed to reduce discomfort as he asphyxiated. The whole process took less than 36 hours.

    The crime of this bill is that it challenges the great British vice of hypocrisy, attempting to formalise something that everyone knows goes on but would rather avert their eyes from.
    It's not hypocrisy that is the vice here, but the pretence that prolonging someone's death is the same as prolonging their life.
    I’d argue that this is a kind of hypocrisy, but yes.
    As with so much of what goes on nowadays, it’s become about the personal and the feels. I get eg why disabled people might feel uncomfortable about any such legislation and noisily oppose it, but is their discomfort a valid reason for imposing their view on everyone? Since the proposition is that assistance would only be given when illness is terminal within 6 months, I don’t see why anyone with a lifelong or long term disability would be affected. The argument seems to be that this is the thin end of the wedge which is always a crap argument against anything.
    As cyclefree noted, we can’t tell reliably tell who is terminal within 6 months. My aunt was diagnosed as terminal within 6 months about 5 years ago, for example. I don’t see this as an insuperable problem, but we need to be conscious of it.
    Also does that 6 months principle extend to the very elderly? There's probably a good chance that an 89 year old could die within 6 months or they might live to be 100.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    An excellent header.

    In theory, assisted dying is good thing.

    Having personally encountered a member of hospital staff who believed that terminally ill patients should die immediately, to save bother… regardless of the wishes of the patient…. I wonder what advice she would be giving the patients on her ward.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Thanks Cyclefree. I'd be persuadable by a very limited, designed for rare use assisted dying law, but your framing here does influence my thinking on this proposal.

    As Eek says, I think this needs time and thorough scrutiny.

    I've seen a few people now approach their end, weak, with decent palliative care and drifting in and out of awareness with their family around, and I would probably choose not to go down an assisted dying route if B this were my own end. Assisted dying should not be disentangled from palliative care obligations.

    Wasn’t the original abortion legislation designed to be very limited and rare?

    Now we see a quarter of a million abortions every year in the UK.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/470890/legal-abortions-performed-in-england-and-wales/
    No. The original abortion legislation was not designed to be very limited and rare. Source: talking to the people who wrote it.
    That Bill Clinton election soundbite has entered the collective consciousness. That it was never given legislative form doesn't register.
    ?? I and Sandpit were discussing the UK situation. What Clinton soundbite do you mean?
    "Safe, legal and rare" - regularly rolled out here.
    Oh, OK.

    That was a quarter of a century after England & Wales legalisation.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,074

    Mr. Eagles, do you think our current Parliamentarians have, on average, the same degree of intelligence and quality of training for their roles as doctors?

    Do you believe the quality of the Lords will be improved by removing members who owe no favours to party leaders?

    If they owe no favours to party leaders why do so many of the hereditaries take the Tory whip?
    Because they believe in Conservative policies rather than because Conservative endorsement gets them elected and its withdrawal would cause them to lose their seats?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    Around two-thirds of the US Federal Budget is made up is Mandatory Spending, that is "locked in" unless Congress passes laws to actually change it. This is Interest ($1trn), Social Security ($1.4trn), Medicare & Medicaid ($1.5trn), and support for welfare programs for low income Americans, such as SNAP and Earned Income Tax Credit ($1.1trn).

    That's close to $5bn of the Federal Government's spending that is Mandatory and would require laws passed by Congress to change.

    The rest of spending is theoretically Discretionary in nature: Defense ($773bn), Veteran's Affairs ($303bn), Energy ($45bn), Education ($80bn), NASA ($25bn), the FDA ($7bn) and the like,

    The reality is that a lot of the Discretionary Spending is essentially untouchable. Veteran's Affairs is healthcare and pensions for ex-servicemen and their families. There is literally no way that can be touched. And I'm not sure that Defense can easily be signifcantly reduced either.

    One could, of course, close down the Departments of Energy and Education (although I suspect there might be some impacts from that), but the total saved would be tiny - $125bn out of a budget of $6.8 trillion or just 2% of the total. The FDA could likewise be shuttered, albeit its duties are mandated by Congress, and its budget is miniscule.

    In other words, I think we can reasonably assume that getting massive savings from the Federal Government without cutting into Mandatory Spending is going to be next to impossible.

    And here's the kicker: the US like other countries is getting older. That means that the amount that is due to be spent on Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security and Veterans Affairs will grow faster than the economy going forward almost irrespective of what the government does.

    Given I'm also not convinced that Republican lawmakers are going to be lining up to cut payments to their constituents, I think Elon Musk and Donald Trump face an extremely uphill battle in substantially reducing US Government expenditure.

    ---

    On the subject of interest, it does bear mentioning that the effective (real) value of US national debt falls by inflation every year. So if your budget deficit each year is just the interest payment, then in inflation adjusted terms, the value of your debt does not fall. If you consider the value of the national debt relative to GDP, then (as the economy usually grows) in this scenario national debt as a percentage of GDP would decline. So: I wouldn't worry *too much* about interest payments.
    It is worth noting that half the FDA's budget comes directly from pharmaceutical companies, so closing it down would (net) result in only a $3.5bn saving.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,433

    One government initiative I welcome - revenue protection are unfriendly and aggressive, and often try and entrap passengers just trying to do the right thing rather than target serial offenders - which makes me wonder if they have "targets" to catch a certain number of "faredodgers" and are incentivised accordingly:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg0l8r3zy1o

    The ones at Manchester Piccadilly are utter arseholes.

    Northern Trains are often late/cancelled so people have legitimately bought an off peak ticket but arrive at peak time due to delays/cancellations.
    HTF is it possible to arrive at a peak time. In London for as long as I've known (so mid 80s) the evening peak fate is for people leaving London during peak hours
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    Eabhal said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Regarding your last paragraph,have you missed that this bill is only for people likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor?

    On care costs - my own view is that if I get to the state that permanent care is required then I want to die rather than incurring the expensive care costs that you refer to. Why can't my choice be respected by medical professionals (which need not be the NHS) rather than me having to take matters into my own hands?
    The last 12 months of life are certainly the most expensive, from a fiscal perspective. That's why demographic factors aren't quite as important as you might expect - you only die once, as it were.

    But that's also why I don't think assisted dying (6 month rule) would save much. Many of the end-of-life costs that are incurred would remain, with the addition of the legal issues that would come with it.
    12 months? My mother has been in a care home for 7 years with no end in sight. She still would not qualify under the six months rule despite her abysmal condition.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    Stereodog said:

    It is not really clear what is the basis of the objection in the header, at least on principle, other than that the practical details have not been nailed down.

    That a private member's bill is badly drafted is almost a given since many government bills are badly drafted, at least if the number of amendments is any guide.

    If suicide and attempted suicide are legal, what is the principled objection to assisted suicide? To placing the metaphorical pearl-handled revolver by the hospital bed? Are we to ban the infirm from travel to Switzerland, just in case?

    But yes, I have no real answer to the questions around coercion, or how to judge imminent death (although in practice, many doctors do this every day with varying and probably unmeasured degrees of accuracy: most of us will have experienced that call to come and visit our relatives whose death is thought to be imminent) or how to allow staff to opt out.

    What worries me more in immediate practical terms is that doctors, especially in this post-Shipman age, might be withholding adequate pain relief where death is a possible side effect.

    Afaics ‘assisted suicide’ is already present in treatment, in certain forms anyway. My friend with MND whose life came to end almost exactly two years ago had an assisted death in everything but name. He discussed with his care team exactly what would happen months before his death, that is being taken into a hospice, withdrawal from his respirator which he was completely dependent upon by that point, and whatever heroic amounts of sedation would be needed to reduce discomfort as he asphyxiated. The whole process took less than 36 hours.

    The crime of this bill is that it challenges the great British vice of hypocrisy, attempting to formalise something that everyone knows goes on but would rather avert their eyes from.
    It's not hypocrisy that is the vice here, but the pretence that prolonging someone's death is the same as prolonging their life.
    I’d argue that this is a kind of hypocrisy, but yes.
    As with so much of what goes on nowadays, it’s become about the personal and the feels. I get eg why disabled people might feel uncomfortable about any such legislation and noisily oppose it, but is their discomfort a valid reason for imposing their view on everyone? Since the proposition is that assistance would only be given when illness is terminal within 6 months, I don’t see why anyone with a lifelong or long term disability would be affected. The argument seems to be that this is the thin end of the wedge which is always a crap argument against anything.
    As cyclefree noted, we can’t tell reliably tell who is terminal within 6 months. My aunt was diagnosed as terminal within 6 months about 5 years ago, for example. I don’t see this as an insuperable problem, but we need to be conscious of it.
    Also does that 6 months principle extend to the very elderly? There's probably a good chance that an 89 year old could die within 6 months or they might live to be 100.
    Actually quite a low chance. Life expectancy at 90 for a woman is 4.6 years, at 3.9 years for a man.

    Even at age 100, average life expectancy is 2 years.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, how much efficiency saving do we think the US government can actually find, by giving two businessmen the task of looking through the budget line by line to find things that are surplus to requirements?

    The current US Federal budget is around $6.8trn, and the deficit $1.8trn per year. More than $1trn is spent annually on debt interest, which is now higher than the defence budget.

    There’s loads of examples of a few million here and there on silly projects or academic studies, but can they actually find trillions when they’re all added up, and can they convince Congress to pass the appropriate legislation against the wishes of the many donors and lobbyists in Washington?

    One of the questions is whether they will look line-by-line, or just announce things like "We don't need a Department of Education".

    Like a lot of things, it depends on whether the Trump administration governs as it campaigned.
    I think that Trump is more intent on governing as he campaigned this time, than he was last time.

    Yes, the Department of Education is a big item, given that schools are run by the States themselves and the DoE supplies a small amount of funding in exchange for the schools pushing the DEI agenda. Better to just give the same money they spend now to the States, remove the Washington bureaucracy and reduce the paperwork required by the schools.

    There’s probably a handful of these, where the scope of government can be reduced, but they’ll also need to find many more of the smaller items and hope they all add up to something meaningful.
    The news we have so far suggest that his appointments are based largely on personal loyalty to Trump.
    Something which runs counter to the US oath of office, which stipulates loyalty only to the constitution.

    The same principle seems to be about to be applied to the military.

    Trump draft executive order would set up board to oust generals en masse

    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4987537-trump-draft-executive-order-would-set-up-board-to-oust-generals-report/
    The transition team for President-elect Trump is working on an executive order that would speed up the firing of top military brass if signed, The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday.
    The draft executive order would set up a “warrior board” of retired generals and noncommissioned officers given power to review three- and four-star officers and to recommend anyone “lacking in requisite leadership qualities,” according to the document, reviewed by the Journal.
    If signed by Trump once he takes office, it could allow the quick removal of generals and admirals and purge the ranks of those the future commander-in-chief takes issue with for whatever reason...

    I’ve not been keeping up with relationships within the junta-in-waiting, is General Flynn still on the Trump train? Him being appointed to any responsible position would sure be a statement of disastrous intent, though there’s going to be stiff competition in that area.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,074
    edited November 13
    By the way, the images of the mass cycling movement in China are crazy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21FHnC57R9g

    Protest takes odd forms when people are denied free expression and redress of grievances.

    Hope it doesn't end with another Tiananmen.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    edited November 13
    Stocky said:

    Eabhal said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another very good piece from Mrs Cyclefree.

    There appears to have been little thought put into how this law would work in practice, and how to deal with the many ethical dilemmas that it introduces.

    Other countries that have enacted similar laws, such as Canada, have seen some distrurbing cases such as people who are young and depressed choosing to end it all rather than take councelling, and elderly people ‘encouraged’ by family to avoid prolonged and expensive care costs.

    Regarding your last paragraph,have you missed that this bill is only for people likely to die within 6 months according to a doctor?

    On care costs - my own view is that if I get to the state that permanent care is required then I want to die rather than incurring the expensive care costs that you refer to. Why can't my choice be respected by medical professionals (which need not be the NHS) rather than me having to take matters into my own hands?
    The last 12 months of life are certainly the most expensive, from a fiscal perspective. That's why demographic factors aren't quite as important as you might expect - you only die once, as it were.

    But that's also why I don't think assisted dying (6 month rule) would save much. Many of the end-of-life costs that are incurred would remain, with the addition of the legal issues that would come with it.
    12 months? My mother has been in a care home for 7 years with no end in sight. She still would not qualify under the six months rule despite her abysmal condition.
    Yes, on average - and it's a rule of thumb representing the escalating costs of healthcare as you approach death, regardless of age.

    It's a lottery though, your mother's situation reflects that of 2/4 of my grandparents, who were in care of some sort for over a decade.
This discussion has been closed.