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Why do I keep doing this? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,183
edited November 20 in General
imageWhy do I keep doing this? – politicalbetting.com

We were out before 7am on polling day, putting one final leaflet out in my village. I’ve been at it for an hour, the fine drizzle is starting to get annoying, and then I cut a finger on someone’s gate.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,184
    First (unlike RP!)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,706
    edited November 10
    Tommy Cooper has sage advice on this.

    "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

    "Don't do it then...."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Ha, much of that made me think about my own feelings half the time with F1 betting. Until quite recently, this year was in the red (admittedly, mostly due to a fantastic bet on Piastri in the UK getting screwed by McLaren 'strategy').

    It's probably the same answer: you keep doing something if you like doing it.

    Just try not to cut your finger again.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    Very nice header Rochdale.
  • A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    "A little mad"?

    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”
  • .

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Are you suggesting that had I been a natural Tory rather than a social democrat, I would have had more success?

    Probably…
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,230
    @TOPPING

    I saw your brief post yesterday - can you give us more detail about he Paul v Tyson fight please?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,656
    edited November 10
    Stocky said:

    @TOPPING

    I saw your brief post yesterday - can you give us more detail about he Paul v Tyson fight please?

    It’s on next Friday night, around 1am Saturday UK time, on Netflix.

    Hopefully the old man smacks the sh!t out of the young tw@. Even 58-year-old Mike Tyson, is still Mike Tyson.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,556
    Regarding the farmers, sadly I think the Government has shown (low) cunning its attempt to destroy the family farm. Though I know a farm has to be worth over a million to be viable these days, I think it's a favourable battleground for the Government because peoples' sympathy for millionaires (even theoretical ones) will be limited, and if they start disrupting the food supply, it will quickly become zero. Farmers should stick to eye catching protests in the media, lobbying all the opposition parties to commit to overturning the law, and keep their powder dry. This Government will be lucky to last a term, and will be left a husk at the next election.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,556
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    You are somewhat behind the times. Politician's extra-marital recreational activities are not reported in the press these days - Boris was the exception for some reason. Even if they don't get superinjunctions, judges won't allow publications to publish unless they can show it's in 'the national interest'. So we have a de facto privacy law for the rich and famous.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,068

    .

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Are you suggesting that had I been a natural Tory rather than a social democrat, I would have had more success?

    Probably…
    There are plenty of council seats around the country that Lib Dems can win with ease. Your mistake is living where you live!

    Same here. Lewisham is a Labour one party state, and if any party is likely to threaten that hegemony it’s the Greens. Lib Dems might conceivably have a chance in the far Southern edges around Sydenham, I suppose.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,068
    edited November 10
    Good morning from the Mumbles where I’m 2 days into my South Walean journey and yet to experience the thrill of those phantom 20mph speed limits. It’s like searching for the Beast of Bodmin.

    I did however have to reach into the depths of my wallet just now to pay for a coffee at a…*cash only* cafe!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,858
    Fpt @Casino_Royale you responded to my comment where I demonstrated that LDs aren't Labour's Santa's little helpers with ' Cough.. Tuition fees'.

    Whereas that would not be one of our finest moments for the life of me I can't see how that shows we are Labour's Santa's little helpers. What the heck has tuition fees during the coalition got to do with supporting Labour?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,970
    edited November 10
    Taz said:

    One of our local councillors, a true independent, decided one day in the pub he was going to run as people kept complaining about his shit labour in Durham were and no one did a thing about it. He got elected and re elected and has been great for getting stuff going in the local community as well as helping people when needed. Admirable.

    One of our local councillors (we have five!) is a true independent, interested only in supporting his area and working for his constituents. The first time he stood, he got nowhere. The second time, he was close to being elected. The third time, he was elected, just. Now he is elected with the largest vote in the ward, well above all the other prospective councillors, of all parties and none. He is the first point of call for all residents, irrespective of their party loyalty. The moral of the story is, if at first you don’t succeed… And work hard.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,312

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



  • Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    @TOPPING

    I saw your brief post yesterday - can you give us more detail about he Paul v Tyson fight please?

    It’s on next Friday night, around 1am Saturday UK time, on Netflix.

    Hopefully the old man smacks the sh!t out of the young tw@. Even 58-year-old Mike Tyson, is still Mike Tyson.
    I know it can be faked, but recent YouTube videos on Tyson's training make him look particularly tasty. He looks fast and fit, and his punching looks powerful.
    I genuinely hope he batters Paul.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,910

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Far from it. I am pretty sure that the Trump campaign had vastly more money spent on it than Kamala's did. Officially, Kamala's had more, but when you take into account the vast sums invested off-books in the Trump campagn, by Musk and his gang of oligarchs, I am not sure that that is still the case.

    Furthermore, while the Democrat campaign seems to have generated as vast army of helpers, these arrived far too late to be put to best use. It reminds me of the SDP in the days of the Alliance. Most of these were "political virgins" and thought that a bit of hard work in the last fortnight was enough to win the seat. Where SDP candidates did well, it was where the Liberals had put in the hard slog over the years, in all weathers.

    So keep going, Rochdale Pioneer You may be a bit damp, bloodied and tired, but the final victory will be worth it!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,083
    edited November 10
    At school, university and in working for central government, I met a number of successful politicians. Not in any way to question the author's motives, but people will have different reasons for standing, and in local government especially things aren't always what they seem. But even in national government, to what extent was Trump's decision to stand this year due to burning resentment at 2020, and to what extent because he wanted to cancel the federal criminal cases he's subject to?

    On local government, here's an anecdote of mine if anybody's interested:

    A close relative once stood for a nearly hopeless council seat at the time his party was heavily unpopular nationally. He did it basically to do a favour to a local party bigwig who was a friend, but only on the strict understanding that there was no way he could win.

    Of course, he won, in a massive surprise, and spent a miserable year trying his best for his constituents despite crushing professional and family commitments before he resigned.

    I learned two lessons from that: life often doesn't turn out the way you think, and even an unpaid local government role can be extremely demanding.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,545
    Thanks, Mr RP. As one who in his younger years walked a similar walk, with even less success, I understand, I think, your feelings.
    Even now, in a different area and in old age, I feel the odd stirring when an election draws near.
    I did win a couple of elections to professional organisations, and am gratified that one of my grandchildren is now climbing the greasy pole in hers.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,068
    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,879
    ClippP said:

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Far from it. I am pretty sure that the Trump campaign had vastly more money spent on it than Kamala's did. Officially, Kamala's had more, but when you take into account the vast sums invested off-books in the Trump campagn, by Musk and his gang of oligarchs, I am not sure that that is still the case.

    Furthermore, while the Democrat campaign seems to have generated as vast army of helpers, these arrived far too late to be put to best use. It reminds me of the SDP in the days of the Alliance. Most of these were "political virgins" and thought that a bit of hard work in the last fortnight was enough to win the seat. Where SDP candidates did well, it was where the Liberals had put in the hard slog over the years, in all weathers.

    So keep going, Rochdale Pioneer You may be a bit damp, bloodied and tired, but the final victory will be worth it!
    Where did the Trump campaign money go? What was it spent on?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
    Yes, that's the strange thing, no one who is in politics is ever allowed to change their mind yet they represent parties which change their policies constantly.

    There's a balance between consistency and flexibility and adapting your view to a changing world yet, as you say, when a politician changes their view, we get all the nonsense about "U-turns" and "flip flopping".

    A manifesto is a different thing - if you say you are going to do something in Government and don't do it, you need to explain why (the world changes and commitments in opposition don't always stand in Government etc). As for a defeated party, the manifesto is gone with the defeat - start again, blank sheet of paper. You can put the previous policies in the next manifesto but develop new ones, new ideas, new thinking, that's what Opposition is there for, to give you time to re-think.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,638
    edited November 10
    I suppose the questions that you really need to ask are:

    1. What are you hoping to achieve by being elected to office?
    2. Can you achieve those things if you are elected to the post you are standing for
    3. Can you achieve those things anyway without being elected, in which case is the election process rather wasting some of your precious time (everyone's time is precious as we only have a very limitd amount of it)

    Having chatted with you for many years I am pretty sure you know this and know the answers, hence the reason you still stand. But I do get the impression that many politicians - especially those in the higher tiers of administration, actually don't know the answers and are seeking position and some limited power for its own sake rather than because they have a clear idea of what they want to achieve.

    A former mayor and local minor politician in Newark has been in and out of politics for decades. He is nominally 'Labour' but is actually 'Newark' to his core. The amount he has achieved for the town and for its people - at least ona local scale - has been immense and most of it was doen whilst he was out of office. Being elected mayor was simply a route to publicise, promote and further the many causes he was pursuing and he used it to great effect. Even his political opponents recognise that he has done all he has done for the very best of reasons and as a result he has become a real Newark treasure.

    There is another councillor on the Tory side of the divide who, whilst more successful politically and being more of a recognisable politician at District and County level is doing similar things for the causes he believes are important. Little of what he does within elected positions relates to those causes and he could probably still achieve as much without being elected but it does give him a position from which to make his voice heard.

    Both men deserve great praise for what they do but very little of it needed public office.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,888
    TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
  • TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
    And the comparisons with China would be rife.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,083

    TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
    And the comparisons with China would be rife.
    And people would find substitutes for Twitter, making the whole exercise a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling.

    So yes, the EU is almost certain to do it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
    I know it might be sensitive but have you had any issues with being an Englishman

    My own experience indicated a degree of this as a problem [though I am half English-half Welsh] when I first travelled from Edinburgh to Lossiemouth to meet my expansive future family with one Aunt recounting that it was said 'he is English, but very nice'

    I must say once married and became very much part of the family this issue disappeared
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381
    Well done Rochdale. It's a great thing to participate actively. Democracy dies otherwise. I myself was slated to go out canvassing in our GE this summer. However the night before my agreed day of action a blood vessel burst in my left eye. Not at all serious but it left me looking like something from the Thriller video. I knew immediately that if I went ahead with the canvassing I'd be repelling the voters and possibly putting a safe Labour seat at risk. So I took one for the team and cried off. My judgement was vindicated, Labour duly won, and it was satisfying to have played a part in it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,468
    Thank you the header, Rochdale.

    I've always been interested, and debate and participate here and in other places. That is one form of involvement.

    I will not be standing for a seat in Ashfield, however. There are limits to the shark-infested custards I will go for a swim within. My call is that doing that I would be tipping my life away running up an avalanche; there are better ways to add value to my community.
  • I suppose the questions that you really need to ask are:

    1. What are you hoping to achieve by being elected to office?
    2. Can you achieve those things if you are elected to the post you are standing for
    3. Can you achieve those things anyway without being elected, in which case is the election process rather wasting some of your precious time (everyone's time is precious as we only have a very limitd amount of it)

    Having chatted with you for many years I am pretty sure you know this and know the answers, hence the reason you still stand. But I do get the impression that many politicians - especially those in the higher tiers of administration, actually don't know the answers and are seeking position and some limited power for its own sake rather than because they have a clear idea of what they want to achieve.

    A former mayor and local minor politician in Newark has been in and out of politics for decades. He is nominally 'Labour' but is actually 'Newark' to his core. The amount he has achieved for the town and for its people - at least ona local scale - has been immense and most of it was doen whilst he was out of office. Being elected mayor was simply a route to publicise, promote and further the many causes he was pursuing and he used it to great effect. Even his political opponents recognise that he has done all he has done for the very best of reasons and as a result he has become a real Newark treasure.

    There is another councillor on the Tory side of the divide who, whilst more successful politically and being more of a recognisable politician at District and County level is doing similar things for the causes he believes are important. Little of what he does within elected positions relates to those causes and he could probably still achieve as much without being elected but it does give him a position from which to make his voice heard.

    Both men deserve great praise for what they do but very little of it needed public office.

    Let me answer your questions with regards to my recent run for council:

    1) To cut the bullshit. Local politics bores me. Tit for tat political point scoring whilst very little gets done. Aberdeenshire council is broke (and I openly said so in my campaign) so money needs to be spent smartly on actually doing stuff. I also love the blank sheet of paper approach - don’t worry bout where we re now, why does good look like? And once you draw that on the blank sheet of paper, adjust course in the lived reality to stop compromising for the sake of it and start building the good.
    One example - most villages in the ward have crap bus services. No point throwing money at it as the few that run are mostly empty, running odd routes at odd times. The solution is already enacted for my kids - a network of services running spokes to a central hub: the school. My son on a Friday takes the bus to school then another bus to college. Hub and spoke. A complete reimagining of bus service provision so that you can get anywhere to anywhere with one change.
    2) Partially. LibDems are Tories are in coalition, albeit with the Tories heavily in charge especially after picking up 3 seats. The successful Tory is a nice guy - genuinely. But despite giving lip service in the campaign seems uninterested in stuff for the little people. Being on the council gives me a platform to build alliances cross party and start finding areas of common ground. Sadly so much of what is reported back to me is political first and delivery focused second. I would have pissed my LD colleagues off.
    3) Doubtful. The council is so big and its budget cuts so large that the only guarantee is cuts followed by cuts. Having someone fight both for best value for the cash and it spent in the right place is critical. Can’t happen on the outside.

    I’m sure it’s the same south of the wall, but the malign reach of the Scottish government is absurd, dictating that x has to be bundled with y but not actually funding y this ensuring that x doesn’t happen either. Not spending money costs even more money in crisis management of z. The conclusion? Nothing happens other than cash being burnt whilst local political popinjays denounce the failure of others to deliver the impossible situation they created specifically to ensure failure and blame.

    Kinnock once denounced the Labour Party conference that a Labour council (a LABOUR council) shouldn’t play politics with people’s jobs and services. The SNP haven’t learned that lesson. And are getting smashed for it. And yet they lay the blame at the voters for not being patriotic.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,285
    edited November 10
    TimS said:

    Good morning from the Mumbles where I’m 2 days into my South Walean journey and yet to experience the thrill of those phantom 20mph speed limits. It’s like searching for the Beast of Bodmin.

    I did however have to reach into the depths of my wallet just now to pay for a coffee at a…*cash only* cafe!

    There is nothing phantom about them with hundreds of Welsh roads going through reassessment and being returned to their previous speed limits, all at the behest of the Welsh Labour government and local authorities

    There are parts of Wales, including Gwynedd , where you would experience similar road conditions but travel through Conwy, Denbighshire, and Flintshire together with Wrexham where you would see why it has been recognised by the people actually living here, and the Welsh government, that it needed change and that is what has happened

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,312
    Fishing said:

    TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
    And the comparisons with China would be rife.
    And people would find substitutes for Twitter, making the whole exercise a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling.

    So yes, the EU is almost certain to do it.
    Gosh, that quickly went from assessing Trump's gung ho signalling the banning of all content moderation, which clearly has wide implications, to "aren't the EU awful for not rolling over and letting America just do what the hell they want"
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,581

    Taz said:

    One of our local councillors, a true independent, decided one day in the pub he was going to run as people kept complaining about his shit labour in Durham were and no one did a thing about it. He got elected and re elected and has been great for getting stuff going in the local community as well as helping people when needed. Admirable.

    One of our local councillors (we have five!) is a true independent, interested only in supporting his area and working for his constituents. The first time he stood, he got nowhere. The second time, he was close to being elected. The third time, he was elected, just. Now he is elected with the largest vote in the ward, well above all the other prospective councillors, of all parties and none. He is the first point of call for all residents, irrespective of their party loyalty. The moral of the story is, if at first you don’t succeed… And work hard.
    Yes it absolutely is and it also shows people can make a difference at a local level and improve their local community.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,888
    Pro_Rata said:

    Fishing said:

    TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
    And the comparisons with China would be rife.
    And people would find substitutes for Twitter, making the whole exercise a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling.

    So yes, the EU is almost certain to do it.
    Gosh, that quickly went from assessing Trump's gung ho signalling the banning of all content moderation, which clearly has wide implications, to "aren't the EU awful for not rolling over and letting America just do what the hell they want"
    Wanting to be the global regulator of American companies while depending on American protection is an incoherent position.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
    I know it might be sensitive but have you had any issues with being an Englishman

    My own experience indicated a degree of this as a problem [though I am half English-half Welsh] when I first travelled from Edinburgh to Lossiemouth to meet my expansive future family with one Aunt recounting that it was said 'he is English, but very nice'

    I must say once married and became very much part of the family this issue disappeared
    Issues? Sure - the cybernats attack me for being English. Lots of comments telling to go back home. The comedy is that the SNP government supported by said keyboard warrior impotents has a pro migration policy where migrants to Scotland who move here and live here and pay taxes here are “new Scots”. Unless they disagree with independence apparently.

    I didn’t lose because I am English. I lost because my party doesn’t have enough local support. I could have won as an “English man” had I been Tory. And the more the cybernats abuse me for being English, the more they upset the locals. Genuinely. They’re horrified and appalled. They tell me so.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,576
    ClippP said:

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Far from it. I am pretty sure that the Trump campaign had vastly more money spent on it than Kamala's did. Officially, Kamala's had more, but when you take into account the vast sums invested off-books in the Trump campagn, by Musk and his gang of oligarchs, I am not sure that that is still the case.

    Furthermore, while the Democrat campaign seems to have generated as vast army of helpers, these arrived far too late to be put to best use. It reminds me of the SDP in the days of the Alliance. Most of these were "political virgins" and thought that a bit of hard work in the last fortnight was enough to win the seat. Where SDP candidates did well, it was where the Liberals had put in the hard slog over the years, in all weathers.

    So keep going, Rochdale Pioneer You may be a bit damp, bloodied and tired, but the final victory will be worth it!
    I think you’ll find that the Democrats were ahead in fund raising, even for Super PACs and dark money, this year.

    According to my American relatives - NY Democrats since the year dot - the campaign and turnout machine were going great.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,949

    Pro_Rata said:

    Fishing said:

    TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
    And the comparisons with China would be rife.
    And people would find substitutes for Twitter, making the whole exercise a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling.

    So yes, the EU is almost certain to do it.
    Gosh, that quickly went from assessing Trump's gung ho signalling the banning of all content moderation, which clearly has wide implications, to "aren't the EU awful for not rolling over and letting America just do what the hell they want"
    Wanting to be the global regulator of American companies while depending on American protection is an incoherent position.
    Shall we insist Ladbrokes are free to trade across the USA?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,285
    edited November 10

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
    I know it might be sensitive but have you had any issues with being an Englishman

    My own experience indicated a degree of this as a problem [though I am half English-half Welsh] when I first travelled from Edinburgh to Lossiemouth to meet my expansive future family with one Aunt recounting that it was said 'he is English, but very nice'

    I must say once married and became very much part of the family this issue disappeared
    Issues? Sure - the cybernats attack me for being English. Lots of comments telling to go back home. The comedy is that the SNP government supported by said keyboard warrior impotents has a pro migration policy where migrants to Scotland who move here and live here and pay taxes here are “new Scots”. Unless they disagree with independence apparently.

    I didn’t lose because I am English. I lost because my party doesn’t have enough local support. I could have won as an “English man” had I been Tory. And the more the cybernats abuse me for being English, the more they upset the locals. Genuinely. They’re horrified and appalled. They tell me so.
    Thank you for that and I was interested if it was still the case as it was when I first went to the NE of Scotland in 1962

    But of course they did not have social media in those days
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,888

    Pro_Rata said:

    Fishing said:

    TimS said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?



    It’s all bluster. The EU will simply block sites that do not have content moderation, and the UK will continue to enable libel suits.

    If Trump wants to pick a fight with the EU then doing so on consumer regulation and data privacy is just about the stupidest possible decision. He’d basically be launching a frontal attack on the bloc’s most powerful forces.
    If the EU banned Twitter/X, the ban would be widely flouted, including by EU politicians.
    And the comparisons with China would be rife.
    And people would find substitutes for Twitter, making the whole exercise a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling.

    So yes, the EU is almost certain to do it.
    Gosh, that quickly went from assessing Trump's gung ho signalling the banning of all content moderation, which clearly has wide implications, to "aren't the EU awful for not rolling over and letting America just do what the hell they want"
    Wanting to be the global regulator of American companies while depending on American protection is an incoherent position.
    Shall we insist Ladbrokes are free to trade across the USA?
    If the US relied on us to defend itself against Mexico, that might not be unreasonable.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,581

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
    I know it might be sensitive but have you had any issues with being an Englishman

    My own experience indicated a degree of this as a problem [though I am half English-half Welsh] when I first travelled from Edinburgh to Lossiemouth to meet my expansive future family with one Aunt recounting that it was said 'he is English, but very nice'

    I must say once married and became very much part of the family this issue disappeared
    Issues? Sure - the cybernats attack me for being English. Lots of comments telling to go back home. The comedy is that the SNP government supported by said keyboard warrior impotents has a pro migration policy where migrants to Scotland who move here and live here and pay taxes here are “new Scots”. Unless they disagree with independence apparently.

    I didn’t lose because I am English. I lost because my party doesn’t have enough local support. I could have won as an “English man” had I been Tory. And the more the cybernats abuse me for being English, the more they upset the locals. Genuinely. They’re horrified and appalled. They tell me so.
    Were you expecting this sort of thing ?

    Cybernats on social media like X are known to be rather enthusiastic in their support for their cause after a all.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,444
    edited November 10
    Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    Out of those 2 Beamish would be more fun with a greater variety of options although the only roles available at the moment s costumed...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,067
    The consistent message I hear from local councillors is that they didn't appreciate how much of their time the role would take up.

    For anyone working full time, it is a huge undertaking.
  • On the US election, it has been said that Harris and the Democrats hugely misunderstood the US electorate by the use of celebrities on stage singing Harris praise and Obama's plea to elect her, that there was no message as to what she would do as President

    Looking back at Brexit, Obama made the same mistake when he said the UK would go to the back of the queue in any trade deal
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,581
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    Out of those 2 Beamish would be more fun with a greater variety of options although the only roles available at the moment s costumed...
    It won’t be til early spring anyway.

    The one I saw at Gibside a few months ago was sitting on a lawn mower all day. That sounded quite fun to be honest.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,576
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    Beamish is fantastic. Visited a few years ago. Extraordinary - and very humbling - to actually be able to walk into the homes of people who lived over a century ago. It rather made me realise how good we have it now, even when we're poor.
  • Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    Throughout my working life I involved myself in various organisations including chair of the PTA, chair of the group scout council, and secretary of the community centre committee all non political but serving the community
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,468
    edited November 10

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    On topic: grateful to those who stand and campaign and to the PB team who contribute by providing this forum and through it the wider political discourse.

    FPT: which leads me on to ask about the
    potential legal implications to PB of a US law
    effectively crippling moderation.

    Does this have the potential to end PB as a discussion forum? It has a US based moderator, but more than that it has Vanilla as a forum provider, a .com address and so forth. Any US exposure potentially runs counter to it being able to comply with the moderation required to meet UK libel law, doesn't it? Any PB lawyers care to comment on the extent of the headache here?


    It's a collation of self-serving, meaningless bullshit, as is normal for Trump. It's also 2 years old, so the Twitter poster's claim that it is an "announcement" is a lie. It doesn't actually define anything he doesn't like; it's a word salad to let him go for whoever is today's opponent.

    Here's the original announcement from December 2022, with transcript. It's Trump reading out a bit of his platform:

    https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/president-donald-j-trump-free-speech-policy-initiative

    Musk's orgasmic "YES!" is interesting, because if it does what Trump says Musk's everyday practices are in the crosshairs eg:
    Reforming Section 230 protections to hold tech giants accountable for biased content moderation.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,468
    edited November 10
    Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    My suggestion is something short term that is relatively easy, so you see a quick and cotinuous results or contributions (eg in one field CAB or Samaritans volunteer), and something long-term (ie 5-10 years, eg helping organise a project to create a new public footpath or park) so you stay interested and thinking. If you want to do something NT they are starting to look for local property coordinators to promote better walking, wheeling, cycling access - which in many places will take several decades to turn it around entirely.

    Depending on your area, one thing that can really be difficult is finding professional type people to be trustees and officers of organisations. So that is a good one for PB-type people. My area really struggles for that.

    If you like, that's a battle and a war !
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543

    The consistent message I hear from local councillors is that they didn't appreciate how much of their time the role would take up.

    For anyone working full time, it is a huge undertaking.

    Interesting piece by RP, and of course the same applies to voting, which is a small amount of hassle and probably has no effect at all. But if we're interested, why not? What wlould we be doing that was more important?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,468
    edited November 10
    (De-borked version)

    Trump’s announcement on free speech is an indication that he intends to hit the ground running:

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1855119856649355729

    It's a collation of self-serving, meaningless bullshit, as is normal for Trump. It's also 2 years old, so the Twitter poster's claim that it is an "announcement" is a lie. It doesn't actually define anything he doesn't like; it's a word salad to let him go for whoever is today's opponent.

    Here's the original announcement from December 2022, with transcript. It's Trump reading out a bit of his platform:

    https://www.donaldjtrump.com/agenda47/president-donald-j-trump-free-speech-policy-initiative

    Musk's orgasmic "YES!" is interesting, because if it does what Trump says Musk's everyday practices are in the crosshairs eg:
    Reforming Section 230 protections to hold tech giants accountable for biased content moderation.

  • A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    72 LD MPs to 5 Reform suggest it wasn't wasted time.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,581
    kyf_100 said:

    Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    Beamish is fantastic. Visited a few years ago. Extraordinary - and very humbling - to actually be able to walk into the homes of people who lived over a century ago. It rather made me realise how good we have it now, even when we're poor.
    You should come back as they have now fifties housing and shops. Still a work in progress but fascinating all the same.

    As an engineer with a background in the motor industry I always make a beeline for the buses and also the garage in the 1910’s street.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    OMFG the CHAOS of Manila
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,910
    A different tier, but my mother in law was a parish councillor for many years. Her view was 'somebody's got to do it'. I suspect while she didn't want to do it, she found doing it less irritating than she would find any of her neighbours doing it.
  • stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    There is one very angry local cybernat who rails against me, complete with “damning” screenshots of social media a decade ago where I was telling people to vote Labour.

    Guilty as charged. As a Labour Party member / activist / organiser / candidate I was advocating that people vote for my party.

    Said cybernat threatened to “go to STV” with said screenshots. Someone pointed out that (a) it was a decade go and (b) he himself is demanding that people change their political minds vs a decade ago to now support yes having voted no and for some reason it all got a little fraught.
    I know it might be sensitive but have you had any issues with being an Englishman

    My own experience indicated a degree of this as a problem [though I am half English-half Welsh] when I first travelled from Edinburgh to Lossiemouth to meet my expansive future family with one Aunt recounting that it was said 'he is English, but very nice'

    I must say once married and became very much part of the family this issue disappeared
    I have only ever run as a "paperless" candidate so being English never came into it one way or the other.
    But in everyday conversations "It's all the fault of the bloody English, oh, no offence, Alan"
    hence my handle.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,710
    Whoops, GB News had a high pitched tone playing during the 2 minute silence.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    HM The King looks very emotional.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,949
    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?
    Is it one short of builders, construction workers and nurses?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,710
    Leon said:

    OMFG the CHAOS of Manila

    Have you been there before?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,910

    ClippP said:

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Far from it. I am pretty sure that the Trump campaign had vastly more money spent on it than Kamala's did. Officially, Kamala's had more, but when you take into account the vast sums invested off-books in the Trump campagn, by Musk and his gang of oligarchs, I am not sure that that is still the case.

    Furthermore, while the Democrat campaign seems to have generated as vast army of helpers, these arrived far too late to be put to best use. It reminds me of the SDP in the days of the Alliance. Most of these were "political virgins" and thought that a bit of hard work in the last fortnight was enough to win the seat. Where SDP candidates did well, it was where the Liberals had put in the hard slog over the years, in all weathers.

    So keep going, Rochdale Pioneer You may be a bit damp, bloodied and tired, but the final victory will be worth it!
    Where did the Trump campaign money go? What was it spent on?
    Not real money, I think. Free advertising, I would imagine. Real money sounds as though it went on Lawyers' fees.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,879
    Europe should come up with a Ukraine funding plan to provide military and financial support (the £300bn frozen assets?) if Trump proceeds with his immediate peace plan initiative. It would at least show that we are prepared to continue offering support and gives Zelensky some cards to play at the negotiating table. We should also make it clear that we want Ukraine to be able to strike Russian military targets inside Russia with our weapons. Put the ball in the Trump administration's court to see if they refuse.

    Putin seems to be escalating to the maximum now in preparation for Trump's arrival. Going slow on Ukraine support for the next two months would be unbelievably stupid and unforgivable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    OMFG the CHAOS of Manila

    Have you been there before?
    Nope. And so far I’m never coming again

    An 80 minute queue for immigration then total anarchy getting a taxi. Like Bangkok 30 years ago but with more guns

    On the other hand they might have bars where you can drink without needing to buy an entire fermented sting ray
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    Pretty sure I just paid $40 a 7 minute cab ride
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Taz said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Taz said:

    When I retire in the new year I’d like to do some stuff to put back into the local community. I’ve been looking at volunteering possibly at Gibside or Beamish. I don’t want to run for election but I’d like to put back into a local community I’m proud to be a part of.

    Beamish is fantastic. Visited a few years ago. Extraordinary - and very humbling - to actually be able to walk into the homes of people who lived over a century ago. It rather made me realise how good we have it now, even when we're poor.
    You should come back as they have now fifties housing and shops. Still a work in progress but fascinating all the same.

    As an engineer with a background in the motor industry I always make a beeline for the buses and also the garage in the 1910’s street.
    I must confess when I was there I made a beeline for the pub!

    While it was all amazing - the things that really stayed in my mind were the mine, the miner's cottage and the school in the mining village.

    I could go to the boozer, the dentist, the high street shop, the mechanic, even the bank, and if I squinted hard enough, it was comparable to modern life, albeit ye-olde-world compared to the places we visit today.

    But visiting the mining village made me realise just how different life was three or four generations ago. As I say, cracking place, and I will definitely be back at some point.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,879
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Far from it. I am pretty sure that the Trump campaign had vastly more money spent on it than Kamala's did. Officially, Kamala's had more, but when you take into account the vast sums invested off-books in the Trump campagn, by Musk and his gang of oligarchs, I am not sure that that is still the case.

    Furthermore, while the Democrat campaign seems to have generated as vast army of helpers, these arrived far too late to be put to best use. It reminds me of the SDP in the days of the Alliance. Most of these were "political virgins" and thought that a bit of hard work in the last fortnight was enough to win the seat. Where SDP candidates did well, it was where the Liberals had put in the hard slog over the years, in all weathers.

    So keep going, Rochdale Pioneer You may be a bit damp, bloodied and tired, but the final victory will be worth it!
    Where did the Trump campaign money go? What was it spent on?
    Not real money, I think. Free advertising, I would imagine. Real money sounds as though it went on Lawyers' fees.
    Okay but where's the evidence? Unless people can provide it, these claims are just wishful thinking.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,710
    "Nowhere is the impact of the pandemic clearer than in Pendle, the rural district in east Lancashire where Ali grew up. It is the epicentre of the national worklessness crisis.

    In the four years between March 2020 and March 2024, the employment rate in Pendle plunged from 74pc to 47.9pc – a fall of 26.1pc and the biggest drop recorded in any of the 329 local authorities across England and Wales, analysis shows.

    The employment rate has recovered to 58.3pc since, but for a time less than half the local population was in work.

    This is not because of a large rise in unemployment but rather because of a jump in the proportion of people who are economically inactive, meaning they are neither employed nor looking for a job."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/11/10/how-lockdown-left-britain-broke/
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,910

    HM The King looks very emotional.

    Well done king, but it doesn't look right having a male monarch. He looks just like everyone else. When the queen was doing it, this tiny woman amongst a lot of men in uniform and suits was quite clearly the main player.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,576

    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?
    Is it one short of builders, construction workers and nurses?
    We deliberately limit training of medical staff to below replacement.

    We also have large numbers of people unemployed (not seeking work) or semi unemployed (16 hours)

    We could do something crazy, like rework the tax system and training to help them become productive.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,920
    kyf_100 said:

    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?

    Exactly. The NHS operates at near capacity, we have a terrible housing stock and low rate of new building, our infrastructure projects are an absolute joke. Only someone who has lost their marbles would think that a rapidly expanding population, mainly due to immigration, would be a good thing in such circumstances. But that's where the UK has been for essentially 25+ years now. So it's no surprise that a lot of problems have got worse.

    You Super Simple idea might not be entirely practical but it is definitely along the lines of what we should be doing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,576
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    A better question might be: why do you do what you do in the way that you do it?

    Because on most of the conventional metrics, Kamala should have won. She had more money than Trump's campaign; a stronger ground game with more activists; more adverts.

    And here in July, Reform picked up more votes than the LibDems despite a shambolic campaign.

    So maybe you are wasting time as well as blood delivering leaflets.

    Far from it. I am pretty sure that the Trump campaign had vastly more money spent on it than Kamala's did. Officially, Kamala's had more, but when you take into account the vast sums invested off-books in the Trump campagn, by Musk and his gang of oligarchs, I am not sure that that is still the case.

    Furthermore, while the Democrat campaign seems to have generated as vast army of helpers, these arrived far too late to be put to best use. It reminds me of the SDP in the days of the Alliance. Most of these were "political virgins" and thought that a bit of hard work in the last fortnight was enough to win the seat. Where SDP candidates did well, it was where the Liberals had put in the hard slog over the years, in all weathers.

    So keep going, Rochdale Pioneer You may be a bit damp, bloodied and tired, but the final victory will be worth it!
    Where did the Trump campaign money go? What was it spent on?
    Not real money, I think. Free advertising, I would imagine. Real money sounds as though it went on Lawyers' fees.
    As @rcs1000 pointed out, the ad spend, by both sides, pushed whole sectors out of advertising. Especially in the swing states.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,558
    edited November 10
    Andy_JS said:

    "Nowhere is the impact of the pandemic clearer than in Pendle, the rural district in east Lancashire where Ali grew up. It is the epicentre of the national worklessness crisis.

    In the four years between March 2020 and March 2024, the employment rate in Pendle plunged from 74pc to 47.9pc – a fall of 26.1pc and the biggest drop recorded in any of the 329 local authorities across England and Wales, analysis shows.

    The employment rate has recovered to 58.3pc since, but for a time less than half the local population was in work.

    This is not because of a large rise in unemployment but rather because of a jump in the proportion of people who are economically inactive, meaning they are neither employed nor looking for a job."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/11/10/how-lockdown-left-britain-broke/

    Could be that, because Pendle has a high proportion of religious people, this is in fact due to their failure to "lockdown" because of insisting of gathering together for prayer meetings, resulting in more health problems than if they had obeyed Boris's rules.

    Edit: Does the Telegraph say which local authority had the lowest drop in economic activity?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    Leon said:

    OMFG the CHAOS of Manila

    OMFG the CHAGOS of Mauritius
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,885
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    OMFG the CHAOS of Manila

    Have you been there before?
    Nope. And so far I’m never coming again

    An 80 minute queue for immigration then total anarchy getting a taxi. Like Bangkok 30 years ago but with more guns

    On the other hand they might have bars where you can drink without needing to buy an entire fermented sting ray
    Manila is a shit hole. Get out ASAP.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,468
    edited November 10
    FPT:

    Interesting that the Times shock ! horror ! £1bn Budget Bill for Tesco headline/subheadline had been through the standard UK media "turn everything to bullshit" filter, and does not mention that it is a cost over 5 years of the Parliament, not one year. Mentioned in the text and not put on social media, of course.

    For those who follow, it sticks out because the Sainsbury Bill is £120-150m per annum, and Tesco is not 7-8 times bigger than Sainsbury.

    (No comment on PB's answer to Lord Frith.)

    For those who still think I’m totally wrong what I argued earlier, and rubbish at economics, tonight’s Sunday Times is for you. And it’s all so simple and Black and White.



    I still know we don’t have to swallow such games and large figures bounded around as fact. Lady Thatcher taught me that by her bravest actions.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,879
    edited November 10

    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?
    Is it one short of builders, construction workers and nurses?
    We deliberately limit training of medical staff to below replacement.

    We also have large numbers of people unemployed (not seeking work) or semi unemployed (16 hours)

    We could do something crazy, like rework the tax system and training to help them become productive.
    I'm a civil servant and work with a lot of part time people. Most are mothers with children or those 60 plus and winding down perhaps already claiming a pension. Remember retiring at 60 used to be fairly common even for men.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,710
    Great news for ordinary people in London trying to find affordable property.

    "Ultra-wealthy Democrats race to buy London boltholes after Trump win
    Enquiries from American buyers seeking ‘safety net’ second homes have doubled, says removals boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/11/10/rich-democrats-race-to-buy-london-boltholes-after-trump-win/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,949

    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?
    Is it one short of builders, construction workers and nurses?
    We deliberately limit training of medical staff to below replacement.

    We also have large numbers of people unemployed (not seeking work) or semi unemployed (16 hours)

    We could do something crazy, like rework the tax system and training to help them become productive.
    National house building scheme, training people in trades and construction to replace the lost right to buy properties would solve a lot. Won't happen as too many can't imagine the state making a success of it.
  • I stood as a paper candidate a few years ago for Craven District Council. My 'campaign' consisted of a pitch to voters published in the local paper (all candidates had the opportunity to write one) , with zero visits to the ward I was standing in.

    As planned, I lost comfortably. However, standing on the stage for our declaration gave me a sense of being part of something that matters - without me standing, the ward would have been uncontested, and I don't think that is good for democracy.

    Another lamentable thing about US elections is how many are uncontested.

    Aside from being bad for democracy it makes it impossible to total the party votes for a state.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,885
    I just watched Trump's all out war on the cartels speech. This is why Americans voted for him, fundamentally he's pledging to keep them safe in a way that Kamala would never have done.
  • CJohnCJohn Posts: 14
    On topic: that looks like a decent result for you, given you might have been squeezed. There must be potential for your party locally?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,949
    Andy_JS said:

    Great news for ordinary people in London trying to find affordable property.

    "Ultra-wealthy Democrats race to buy London boltholes after Trump win
    Enquiries from American buyers seeking ‘safety net’ second homes have doubled, says removals boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/11/10/rich-democrats-race-to-buy-london-boltholes-after-trump-win/

    Its alright they can just swap with all the elites apparently leaving because CGT for higher rate taxpayers has moved from 20% to 24%. Probably a net win to have less moaners here.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,576

    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Thank you, @RochdalePioneers for the article and for flying the flag at an election. I've stood three times but as a paper candidate each time so the "shock" would have been victory.

    There is and has been a constant anti-politician undercurrent (even an anti-politics one on occasion). Politicians are held to standards most wouldn't hold themselves to - the slightest foible (lovely word) is exaggerated into a national scandal. Everything someone said 10 or 20 years is regurgitated and weaponised - yes, they thought that then but do they think it now?

    In other countries, a politician having an affair is barely worth a mention - here it's a "scandal". Political opportunism dressed up as neo-puritanism. As Mr Goddard once offered "don't drink, don't smoke, what do you do?".

    Whether MPs or Councillors, elected representatives are in a strange existence - are they "public servants"? To a point but they aren't Council officers or civil servants though they work with them a lot. They have to do a lot themselves and I suspect the individual parties don't help as much as is neededso it becomes a calling for those with money and time which automatically excludes a large amount of potential from public office of any kind.

    Councils are businesses, often very complex ones, but it's also about dealing with constituents on an individual level and I dread to think how much casework Stephen Timms for example has but all MPs will be the same. It's a constant treadmill of casework, visits, attending Parliament (which can be a significant logistical undertaking for those like Andrew George who aren;t exactly near London).

    It's a system which you wouldn't start from if you are developing a democratic/parliamentary culture from scratch but we are where we are - with a Parliament building that will fall down in time (and, architectural marvel and tourist attraction notwithstanding), we need a legislative chamber for the 21st century not the 19th.

    Two questions.

    Is the contempt for politicians worse than in the past? It's always been present, but it does feel worse now. Starmer's dismal honeymoon is noteworthy, but it's been a while since a new PM has floated in on a tide of national goodwill.

    If it is different, why? One thing I'd want to probe is the Paxman doctrine- "why is this lying (bad word) lying to me?" Often deserved, but a bad default setting. The other is that we've had fifteen or so years where our assumption that things would get noticeably better most years have been tested and failed that test. And the people in charge have got the blame. In which case, where's the problem- their failure or our flawed assumptions?
    Answer to the first - not in the Press certainly (the old Punch cartoons weren't kind). Among the electorate, who were largely voiceless (except at elections) it may just be the old deference has gone. Look at X and some of the language used about individuals is horrendous.

    Second, to an extent, if everything is going well and people feel things are getting better each year and they are getting richer, they'll be more tolerant of Government failure or incompetence (as they were in the Thatcher and Balir administrations, both of which had their share of scandal and disaster but presided over periods of growth and prosperity). When th,ings aren't going well, people look to Government for solutions (even if in a global economy there's probably little individual Governments can do) and when they don't see them, they look elsewhere.

    I'm actually fairly gloomy - on immigration, for example, let's say you bring in a quota or points-based system to reduce the numbers, tighten up the legal routes and close down the illegal routes (assuming you could), the anti-immigration position would shift to deportations of those already here. That's the problem - if you run to the extremes, the extremes will run quicker and further away from you. That's the price of populism.
    You seem to be assuming that any reduction in immigration is “extreme”.

    Why is that?

    We have a simple issue in the U.K. either we are a growing population. Or not. If we are a growing population, we require growth in accommodation and services. Or we have a non growing population and do not.

    Trying to have the cake and eat it - arguing that there is actually enough accommodation and services etc - is just as populist.

    In fact, I would say that the definition of a “populist policy” might run like this -

    - it claims to have no bad effects for “decent people”
    - “Elites don’t want you to know this one trick…” the policy is claimed to be simple and obvious.
    - It is claimed to solve the problem 100%
    My Super Simple (TM) idea for immigration is to create a cap based on three key factors. You could call it a "triple lock" if you like.

    The rule is simple - immigration can never exceed the following:

    New houses built (absolute)
    Proportion of beds available in the NHS expressed as a percentage of the general population
    % Increase in transport capacity

    So if we build 300,000 new homes in 2025, the maximum amount of immigration in 2025 is 300,000.

    But. If NHS capacity only rises by 0.1%, immigration would be capped at 0.1% of the current population, so 68,000.

    Same for transport. Which I've picked as it takes time and planning and works as a proxy for 'general levels of infrastructure spending needed to support a growing population'.

    Such a policy would please the likes of Reform voters, as they would imagine it would bring immigration down to, say, 68,000. I happen to believe the opposite is the case - we'd start building a f--kton more houses, hospitals, and roads.

    And for anybody who thinks this idea is bonkers, I put the opposite to you:

    What kind of madness leads a country to welcome hundreds of thousands of new immigrants each year while building a fraction of the number of houses, hospitals and roads needed to support them?
    Is it one short of builders, construction workers and nurses?
    We deliberately limit training of medical staff to below replacement.

    We also have large numbers of people unemployed (not seeking work) or semi unemployed (16 hours)

    We could do something crazy, like rework the tax system and training to help them become productive.
    I'm a civil servant and work with a lot of part time people. Most are mothers with children or those 60 plus and winding down perhaps already claiming a pension. Remember retiring at 60 used to be fairly common even for men.
    That’s one group of the part time employed. The winding down to retirement, in well paid office jobs.

    There is a serious problem in the work force at large. People getting trapped in the 16 hours thing by insane marginal (effective) rates of tax.

    So they are stuck in low quality, dead end jobs. No promotion because shift leaders and supervisors need to do more hours.
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