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The public ‘prefer’ Jenrick to the even more unpopular Badenoch – politicalbetting.com

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  • glwglw Posts: 9,919
    RobD said:

    JohnO said:

    BMG reporting the first Tory lead since 1754 with:

    Con 29
    Lab 28
    Reform 17
    LDs 13
    Greens 8

    Blue dawn.
    What is the record for a previous government winning a huge majority to trailing in the polls?

    Keir's no Teflon Tony is he?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    edited November 1

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    Pity that had wasn't good at being PM. He was dealt a bad hand, but he still played it atrociously.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,882
    Jonathan said:

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    We Brits love a loser.
    Especially if it involves getting caught in a heavy shower without a brolly.
  • The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    He'll soon be competing with John Major for best-loved ex-PM. Both like cricket: maybe something to do with it?
    His love of silicon valley and New York investment banks. He is no fool.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685

    Jonathan said:

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    We Brits love a loser.
    Especially if it involves getting caught in a heavy shower without a brolly.
    It’s interesting how he gets it right in a way Truss doesn’t. Politics is complicated. She takes herself far too seriously to become a national treasure.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,848

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    He was a crap PM though.

    Perhaps if he’d had time to build his skills and profile, work out what he really stood for, and been able to put together his own team, he might have been OK. Perhaps timing did for Rishi and we will mourn for what could have been. But I am a little doubtful. I think he was a decent, middle ranking politician who was overpromoted.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    He was a crap PM though.

    Perhaps if he’d had time to build his skills and profile, work out what he really stood for, and been able to put together his own team, he might have been OK. Perhaps timing did for Rishi and we will mourn for what could have been. But I am a little doubtful. I think he was a decent, middle ranking politician who was overpromoted.
    Definitely fast tracked to oblivion. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477
    glw said:

    RobD said:

    JohnO said:

    BMG reporting the first Tory lead since 1754 with:

    Con 29
    Lab 28
    Reform 17
    LDs 13
    Greens 8

    Blue dawn.
    What is the record for a previous government winning a huge majority to trailing in the polls?

    Keir's no Teflon Tony is he?
    I suspect Johnson's awful behaviour changed the media narrative forever.

    The focus now is only ever bad news. Same for Liz and Rishi as Starmer.

    There is no balanced analysis of the budget unless that means having lefties on to harp about the failure to implement a wealth tax, alongside Farmers and private school operators banging on about how unfair the budget was to them.

    For what it's worth it was a piss poor budget and I am standing shoulder to shoulder with the lefties.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    edited November 1

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    What is the view now of the budget response?

    I thought he was a bit like Tweedledum trying to create a fight, but Tweedledee was not in the building.

    But TBF Rachel Reeves had been quite disdainfully rude about him en passant.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701
    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    He was a crap PM though.

    Perhaps if he’d had time to build his skills and profile, work out what he really stood for, and been able to put together his own team, he might have been OK. Perhaps timing did for Rishi and we will mourn for what could have been. But I am a little doubtful. I think he was a decent, middle ranking politician who was overpromoted.
    The only PM who has had less time as a regular MP than Sunak before becoming PM is...Starmer.

    Starmer has been an MP for 9 years, and was almost immediately a shadow minister, and on the Opposition front bench after a year. Sunak was an MP for 7 years, becoming a junior minister after 3 years, and a senior minister after 4 years. Cameron was an MP for 9 years, becoming a shadow minister after 3 years and senior shadow minister after 4/5 years.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701
    Cookie said:

    JohnO said:

    BMG reporting the first Tory lead since 1754 with:

    Con 29
    Lab 28
    Reform 17
    LDs 13
    Greens 8

    That strikes me as an unusually low Lab+LD share.
    I wonder why?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    We Brits love a loser.
    Especially if it involves getting caught in a heavy shower without a brolly.
    It’s interesting how he gets it right in a way Truss doesn’t. Politics is complicated. She takes herself far too seriously to become a national treasure.
    Not sure she has a sense of humour.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701
    Jonathan said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice
    Free regular pepsi max
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    That's fantastic news for you. Well done!
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    He's not about, but I think we can find TSE's favourite new Tory MP, at least one one front.

    My interview with the youngest new Tory MP @ShivaniRaja_LE

    🗳️Why she almost didn’t vote in the leadership election
    ⚖️ ‘Yes, why not’ explore leaving the ECHR
    😍 Crush on David Cameron: ‘he’s just so charismatic and charming’

    https://nitter.poast.org/harriet_symonds/status/1851965918022148179#m
  • kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Watch this CNN report on Trump/Cheney. The deliberate misreading of his comments is so blatant.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/01/politics/donald-trump-liz-cheney-war-hawk-battle/index.html

    what about your deliberate misreading earlier? where you inserted the words "if" and "how would" she feel, when Trump used no 'if' or 'would'?

    "Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, okay? Let's see how she feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on her face."
    Let's translate it into a UK context. If you said, "Tony Blair is a war hawk when he's sitting in a nice building in London. Let's give him a rifle and see how he feels when the guns are trained on his face," would that be a call to execute Tony Blair, or a colourful way of calling out his enthusiasm for putting other people in the line of fire?
    Your brain added 'if' and 'would' to Trump's statement where there were none, maybe you should think about that.

    Clearly how acceptable it is to say "let's put Tony Blair with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at him, okay? Let's see how he feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on his face" would depend on who's saying it. I would find it pretty unacceptable had Corbyn said it while campaigning in a general election where he had a good chance of becoming Prime Minister. In the context of someone who has talked about using the military against the 'enemy within', and sees himself as completely above the law it is far worse.
    Do you think it's literally a call to conscript her and send her to war? Do you give Biden a pass for talking about putting Trump in a bullseye?
    Ignore all the mad shit, the misogyny, the racism, inciting a coup, the racketeering, the draft dodging. When Trump suggested guns should be pointed at the face of Liz Cheney (and he was very specific) his words were "taken out of context".

    Of course they were William.
    It's possible they could be a bit, without it really mattering on his awfulness at all because of the even wider context of what he has often said very clearly and directly, so i don't think the 'out of context' defence really works much.
    I think if he had said this in Macdonalds tucking into a whopper it would have been more convincing.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,692

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
  • kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Watch this CNN report on Trump/Cheney. The deliberate misreading of his comments is so blatant.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/01/politics/donald-trump-liz-cheney-war-hawk-battle/index.html

    what about your deliberate misreading earlier? where you inserted the words "if" and "how would" she feel, when Trump used no 'if' or 'would'?

    "Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, okay? Let's see how she feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on her face."
    Let's translate it into a UK context. If you said, "Tony Blair is a war hawk when he's sitting in a nice building in London. Let's give him a rifle and see how he feels when the guns are trained on his face," would that be a call to execute Tony Blair, or a colourful way of calling out his enthusiasm for putting other people in the line of fire?
    Your brain added 'if' and 'would' to Trump's statement where there were none, maybe you should think about that.

    Clearly how acceptable it is to say "let's put Tony Blair with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at him, okay? Let's see how he feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on his face" would depend on who's saying it. I would find it pretty unacceptable had Corbyn said it while campaigning in a general election where he had a good chance of becoming Prime Minister. In the context of someone who has talked about using the military against the 'enemy within', and sees himself as completely above the law it is far worse.
    Do you think it's literally a call to conscript her and send her to war? Do you give Biden a pass for talking about putting Trump in a bullseye?
    Ignore all the mad shit, the misogyny, the racism, inciting a coup, the racketeering, the draft dodging. When Trump suggested guns should be pointed at the face of Liz Cheney (and he was very specific) his words were "taken out of context".

    Of course they were William.
    It's possible they could be a bit, without it really mattering on his awfulness at all because of the even wider context of what he has often said very clearly and directly, so i don't think the 'out of context' defence really works much.
    I think if he had said this in Macdonalds tucking into a whopper it would have been more convincing.
    Quarter pounder!
  • The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    Both PMQs and his response to the budget were his best moments maybe due to the release of responsibility
  • The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    Both PMQs and his response to the budget were his best moments maybe due to the release of responsibility
    Oscar winning performance he put in over the budget!
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,557
    Jonathan said:

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    We Brits love a loser.
    Very true

    But a gallant loser is still a loser
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    There is talk that if Sunak, Dowden and one other apply to the Chiltern Hundreds, Mogg, Shapps and Mordaunt return to the Commons tout suite.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,186
    edited November 1
    That putative whale who is squatting on Polymarket has spoken to the WSJ. Apparently he noticed that Trump overperformed his polls in 2016 and 2020 and if it's close and the same thing happens again, he'll win! Amazing! Science! There was me just throwing poo at the walls and drawing bulls-eyes around them. Well that's told me and no mistake. :lol:

    https://nitter.poast.org/Domahhhh/status/1852422106102776290#m
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685
    edited November 1

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    Both PMQs and his response to the budget were his best moments maybe due to the release of responsibility
    I got a sense for the first time he realised what he’d done. It hurt.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    There is talk that if Sunak, Dowden and one other apply to the Chiltern Hundreds, Mogg, Shapps and Mordaunt return to the Commons tout suite.
    Not Mogg. No please no more. Its over.
  • The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    Both PMQs and his response to the budget were his best moments maybe due to the release of responsibility
    Nothing in his time in office became him like the leaving it.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,020
    Some Scottish polling would be very interesting right now.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    But before getting too excited Techne on the same dates gives Labour +7



  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    The tragedy of Rishi Sunak is he trashed his image by adopting the faux Boris Mr Angry persona instead of remaining the calm, reasonable guy he'd seemed up to then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    They should have gone with my suggestion of going into the General Election with no confirmed party leader so people could imagine the leader they wanted!
  • Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    But before getting too excited Techne on the same dates gives Labour +7



    Yes. With no leader they would do better in the polls!
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
  • kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    They should have gone with my suggestion of going into the General Election with no confirmed party leader so people could imagine the leader they wanted!
    A dummy. A third of it would be Johnson. The Next third Sunak. The last part May.
  • kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
  • The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    The tragedy of Rishi Sunak is he trashed his image by adopting the faux Boris Mr Angry persona instead of remaining the calm, reasonable guy he'd seemed up to then.
    Yes. The My angry from Purley act did not seem very authentic.
  • The remarkable change for Sunak in BMG poll

    Starmer -26
    Sunak - 5 having gone into the election at -42

    By tomorrow morning, we will miss him already.

    He was very good at PMQs this week too.
    The tragedy of Rishi Sunak is he trashed his image by adopting the faux Boris Mr Angry persona instead of remaining the calm, reasonable guy he'd seemed up to then.
    Yes. The My angry from Purley act did not seem very authentic.
    Mr Angry.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,237
    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    That Reform broke through with a decent handful of MPs may make a big difference. Even with a good voteshare they could be seen as mere spoilers if they had none, or a couple, but 5? It feels a bit weightier, they will still be significant so long as they do not implode.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,596
    LOL.
  • kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Watch this CNN report on Trump/Cheney. The deliberate misreading of his comments is so blatant.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/01/politics/donald-trump-liz-cheney-war-hawk-battle/index.html

    what about your deliberate misreading earlier? where you inserted the words "if" and "how would" she feel, when Trump used no 'if' or 'would'?

    "Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, okay? Let's see how she feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on her face."
    Let's translate it into a UK context. If you said, "Tony Blair is a war hawk when he's sitting in a nice building in London. Let's give him a rifle and see how he feels when the guns are trained on his face," would that be a call to execute Tony Blair, or a colourful way of calling out his enthusiasm for putting other people in the line of fire?
    Your brain added 'if' and 'would' to Trump's statement where there were none, maybe you should think about that.

    Clearly how acceptable it is to say "let's put Tony Blair with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at him, okay? Let's see how he feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on his face" would depend on who's saying it. I would find it pretty unacceptable had Corbyn said it while campaigning in a general election where he had a good chance of becoming Prime Minister. In the context of someone who has talked about using the military against the 'enemy within', and sees himself as completely above the law it is far worse.
    Do you think it's literally a call to conscript her and send her to war? Do you give Biden a pass for talking about putting Trump in a bullseye?
    Ignore all the mad shit, the misogyny, the racism, inciting a coup, the racketeering, the draft dodging. When Trump suggested guns should be pointed at the face of Liz Cheney (and he was very specific) his words were "taken out of context".

    Of course they were William.
    It's possible they could be a bit, without it really mattering on his awfulness at all because of the even wider context of what he has often said very clearly and directly, so i don't think the 'out of context' defence really works much.
    I think if he had said this in Macdonalds tucking into a whopper it would have been more convincing.
    Quarter pounder!
    Royale with cheese.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab7eVVG3I8s
  • Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    But before getting too excited Techne on the same dates gives Labour +7



    Rather than just look at the figures read BMG report which seems about right on present public opinion
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,957

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    First Tory poll lead since Redfield 6th December 2021!
  • kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Watch this CNN report on Trump/Cheney. The deliberate misreading of his comments is so blatant.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/01/politics/donald-trump-liz-cheney-war-hawk-battle/index.html

    what about your deliberate misreading earlier? where you inserted the words "if" and "how would" she feel, when Trump used no 'if' or 'would'?

    "Let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, okay? Let's see how she feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on her face."
    Let's translate it into a UK context. If you said, "Tony Blair is a war hawk when he's sitting in a nice building in London. Let's give him a rifle and see how he feels when the guns are trained on his face," would that be a call to execute Tony Blair, or a colourful way of calling out his enthusiasm for putting other people in the line of fire?
    Your brain added 'if' and 'would' to Trump's statement where there were none, maybe you should think about that.

    Clearly how acceptable it is to say "let's put Tony Blair with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at him, okay? Let's see how he feels about it, you know, when the guns are trained on his face" would depend on who's saying it. I would find it pretty unacceptable had Corbyn said it while campaigning in a general election where he had a good chance of becoming Prime Minister. In the context of someone who has talked about using the military against the 'enemy within', and sees himself as completely above the law it is far worse.
    Do you think it's literally a call to conscript her and send her to war? Do you give Biden a pass for talking about putting Trump in a bullseye?
    Ignore all the mad shit, the misogyny, the racism, inciting a coup, the racketeering, the draft dodging. When Trump suggested guns should be pointed at the face of Liz Cheney (and he was very specific) his words were "taken out of context".

    Of course they were William.
    It's possible they could be a bit, without it really mattering on his awfulness at all because of the even wider context of what he has often said very clearly and directly, so i don't think the 'out of context' defence really works much.
    I think if he had said this in Macdonalds tucking into a whopper it would have been more convincing.
    Quarter pounder!
    Royale with cheese.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab7eVVG3I8s
    That is True!
  • kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Farage. A deal with the devil.
  • kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    Which is why the last Government got kicked out.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477
    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
  • ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
    That never worried your government over the last 14 years. Certainly since Brexit.
  • ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
    That never worried your government over the last 14 years. Certainly since Brexit.
    Prior to Sunak became Chancellor the Government had ten consecutive years of falling budget deficits.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,968
    edited November 1

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
    That never worried your government over the last 14 years. Certainly since Brexit.
    Prior to Sunak became Chancellor the Government had ten consecutive years of falling budget deficits.
    Back in my day we had a Long Term Economic Plan.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565


    James Heale
    @JAHeale
    ·
    11m
    What a feat by Rishi Sunak, turning around a Labour lead of 20 points in just two short years

    Lol
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,301

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    And that's what makes it difficult. Electors want multiple things, some of which contradict each other.

    Blooming electors.

    (On the BMG poll, if it is partially a Sunak Sympathy Snog from the voters, that spells trouble for the Conservatives. Neither of his potential replacements looks that sympathetic.)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    That's fantastic news for you. Well done!
    87% voting for neoliberalism
    8% for progressive policies

    Not good news imo
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    edited November 1
    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    Cross over klaxon!



  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477


    James Heale
    @JAHeale
    ·
    11m
    What a feat by Rishi Sunak, turning around a Labour lead of 20 points in just two short years

    Lol
    If only Rishi had hung on until January. We'd have seen an unprecedented fifth term.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477
    RobD said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
    That never worried your government over the last 14 years. Certainly since Brexit.
    Prior to Sunak became Chancellor the Government had ten consecutive years of falling budget deficits.
    Back in my day we had a Long Term Economic Plan.
    At an outrageous cost to public services. You Tories! You know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    But before getting too excited Techne on the same dates gives Labour +7



    You're going down.

    Going down to Chinatown.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    SKSICIPM
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,968

    RobD said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
    That never worried your government over the last 14 years. Certainly since Brexit.
    Prior to Sunak became Chancellor the Government had ten consecutive years of falling budget deficits.
    Back in my day we had a Long Term Economic Plan.
    At an outrageous cost to public services. You Tories! You know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
    Would have been worse had Darling had his way.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,792
    edited November 1

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    I wish this government was unpopular for the right reasons. Massive tax, spending and borrowing, sure - but also NICs/IT consolidation, triple lock in the bin, fuel duty back to sanity (or a proper reform of motoring tax), a full council tax reform based on house prices (and double it!), public health investment, hospital spending freeze, HS2 to Manchester, sort our devolution settlements and push more to the north of England - basically anything Red in the political RAG rating.

    Might as well, pensioners and landlords hate them anyway.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565


    James Heale
    @JAHeale
    ·
    11m
    What a feat by Rishi Sunak, turning around a Labour lead of 20 points in just two short years

    Lol
    If only Rishi had hung on until January. We'd have seen an unprecedented fifth term.
    Tbh, I wish he had.

    We didn't have to have this shower for another 6 months.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Baxtered:

    Con 229
    Lab 304
    Lib 66
    Ref 7

    Labour 22 short of a majority.

    Like it or not, the Tories have a Reform problem. Attracting those voters is probably going to be the key to making this a 1 term Labour government.

    My hope is they focus on economics and not the culture wars stuff. Reeves' first budget was completely economically illiterate, transferring wealth from the private to the public sector, at the cost of permanently low growth.

    If the Tories take a business friendly approach in 2029 they'll have my vote, if they double down on culture wars stuff I'll sit on my hands again and not vote.
    Higher taxes, higher borrowing, higher spending rarely sits comfortably with voters
    I think voters quite like higher spending on stuff they like.
    Indeed if it is affordable
    That never worried your government over the last 14 years. Certainly since Brexit.
    Prior to Sunak became Chancellor the Government had ten consecutive years of falling budget deficits.
    Back in my day we had a Long Term Economic Plan.
    At an outrageous cost to public services. You Tories! You know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
    Would have been worse had Darling had his way.
    Al darling. Those were the days!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,301

    Roger said:

    Andy_JS said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    The first poll putting the Tories ahead for a very long time.
    They obviously prefer a Party without a leader.

    But before getting too excited Techne on the same dates gives Labour +7



    You're going down.

    Going down to Chinatown.
    The debate (like the Starmer government) looks set to drag on.
  • Eabhal said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    I wish this government was unpopular for the right reasons. Massive tax, spending and borrowing, sure - but also NICs/IT consolidation, triple lock in the bin, fuel duty back to sanity (or a proper reform of motoring tax), a full council tax reform based on house prices (and double it!), public health investment, hospital spending freeze, HS2 to Manchester, sort our devolution settlements and push more to the north of England - basically anything Red in the political RAG rating.

    Might as well, pensioners and landlords hate them anyway.
    You may not believe me but I agree largely with your first paragraph
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    Eabhal said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    I wish this government was unpopular for the right reasons. Massive tax, spending and borrowing, sure - but also NICs/IT consolidation, triple lock in the bin, fuel duty back to sanity (or a proper reform of motoring tax), a full council tax reform based on house prices (and double it!), public health investment, hospital spending freeze, HS2 to Manchester, sort our devolution settlements and push more to the north of England - basically anything Red in the political RAG rating.

    Might as well, pensioners and landlords hate them anyway.
    If you did all that and pumped it into the economy in just 1-2 years it would lead to a massive spike in inflation, though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    SKSICIPM
    Yep, for another 4 1/2 years at least.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,792

    Eabhal said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    I wish this government was unpopular for the right reasons. Massive tax, spending and borrowing, sure - but also NICs/IT consolidation, triple lock in the bin, fuel duty back to sanity (or a proper reform of motoring tax), a full council tax reform based on house prices (and double it!), public health investment, hospital spending freeze, HS2 to Manchester, sort our devolution settlements and push more to the north of England - basically anything Red in the political RAG rating.

    Might as well, pensioners and landlords hate them anyway.
    You may not believe me but I agree largely with your first paragraph
    Fair enough! I think PB Tories should accept that we elected a left-wing goverment, and that means higher taxes and higher spending.

    But I also think PB Lefties should hold them to the same standards that we did the Conservatives; for example, not re-igniting something like HS2 is just as bad as cancelling it, particularly when you've loosened the fiscal rules "for investment".
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 890
    edited November 1

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    That's fantastic news for you. Well done!
    87% voting for neoliberalism
    8% for progressive policies

    Not good news imo
    Do we think the budget was neoliberal?

    From Wiki:

    Neoliberal policies center around economic liberalization, including reductions to trade barriers and other policies meant to increase free trade, deregulation of industry, privatization of state-owned enterprises, reductions in government spending, and monetarism. Neoliberal theory contends that free markets encourage economic efficiency, economic growth, and technological innovation. State intervention, even if aimed at encouraging these phenomena, is generally believed to worsen economic performance.
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    I wish this government was unpopular for the right reasons. Massive tax, spending and borrowing, sure - but also NICs/IT consolidation, triple lock in the bin, fuel duty back to sanity (or a proper reform of motoring tax), a full council tax reform based on house prices (and double it!), public health investment, hospital spending freeze, HS2 to Manchester, sort our devolution settlements and push more to the north of England - basically anything Red in the political RAG rating.

    Might as well, pensioners and landlords hate them anyway.
    You may not believe me but I agree largely with your first paragraph
    Fair enough! I think PB Tories should accept that we elected a left-wing goverment, and that means higher taxes and higher spending.

    But I also think PB Lefties should hold them to the same standards that we did the Conservatives; for example, not re-igniting something like HS2 is just as bad as cancelling it, particularly when you've loosened the fiscal rules "for investment".
    I really couldn't find anything that isn't common sense in your comments but my concern is that we are heading for lower growth and higher inflation with higher mortgage rates

    The 10 year gilt closed at 4.461 tonight which must be a concern for borrowing cost but maybe it will settle lower but it is a concern
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,792

    Eabhal said:

    📊 Conservative lead at 1pt
    Westminster voting intention

    CON: 29% (+4)
    LAB: 28% (-2)
    REF: 17% (-3)
    LDEM: 13% (-)
    GRN: 8% (+1)

    via @BMGResearch, 30 - 31 Oct

    SKS fans please explain

    Tbh, at last SKS fans do have some explaining to do.

    Bloke is crap.
    I wish this government was unpopular for the right reasons. Massive tax, spending and borrowing, sure - but also NICs/IT consolidation, triple lock in the bin, fuel duty back to sanity (or a proper reform of motoring tax), a full council tax reform based on house prices (and double it!), public health investment, hospital spending freeze, HS2 to Manchester, sort our devolution settlements and push more to the north of England - basically anything Red in the political RAG rating.

    Might as well, pensioners and landlords hate them anyway.
    If you did all that and pumped it into the economy in just 1-2 years it would lead to a massive spike in inflation, though.
    Have you seen the spending plans?! Massively front-loaded - I think there is a risk of high inflation just from that. And politically a bit odd, because the growth will come so much later (in theory).

    The budget wasn't a disaster. Not a roaring success either, and I do think the IFS comment about the next one is interesting - they are basically giving Labour one more chance. Stuff like NICs/income tax, council tax reform takes years - they need to get on with it.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,792

    I do hope public sector workers have now stfu from justifying the enormous ENIC increase

    The entire twenty-five billion employment tax is coming from the private sector

    That's £25b of redundancies, and of cancelled payrises and future hires

    And businesses folding

    It looks like an anti-growth economic plan to me

    I think the private:public sector thing is a red herring. I appreciate that's kinda your thing, but the real issue that this is a tax on "working people" whether they are sorting the bins out for the council or making soy lattes for a private sector business.

    The OBR have set out their expectations about pass-through to employment, wages, hours worked and so on - most of it to wages. It's chunky.There are interesting interactions at the bottom - the minimum wage cannot be squeezed so that must impact on employment and hours instead.

    And the change in the secondary threshold means the impact is much, much higher for part-time workers earning in and around £10,000 - that's single parents etc.

    The change in the employment allowance is great for very small businesses.

    But my challenge to you and others: if employer NICs is so pernicious, why do we have it all? And why didn't the Tories abolish it?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,792
    Box wine is dangerous
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477
    ...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    If Sunak and Dowden bow out we could see Mogg AND Truss.back in the saddle.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,062

    I do hope public sector workers have now stfu from justifying the enormous ENIC increase

    The entire twenty-five billion employment tax is coming from the private sector

    That's £25b of redundancies, and of cancelled payrises and future hires

    And businesses folding

    It looks like an anti-growth economic plan to me

    Let’s not forget international context here. We still have one of the lowest rates of employers NI in the rich world. Netherlands 23%, Germany 20%, Poland 22%, everyone’s favourite Meloni’s Italy 30%, Spain 30%, France up to 50%. Even Singapore 17%. Puts our 15% in perspective. It’s pretty much bang on the global average.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,968
    Eabhal said:

    Box wine is dangerous

    Dangerously good value, you mean?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,358
    edited November 1

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    If Sunak and Dowden bow out we could see Mogg AND Truss.back in the saddle.
    No, Truss is gone had her day. Mogg however is certainly a possible future Tory leader and on tonight's BMG poll would win his seat back.

    Just as students, public sector workers and trade unionists and pacifists loved singing 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn', one can easily imagine farmers, small businessmen, army officers and hardcore Brexiteers singing 'Three cheers for the Mogg!'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,358
    'Charles finally cuts off Andrew's cash: King severs brother's '£1million-a-year' allowance - plus read more Harry and Meghan revelations in landmark new book serialised exclusively by the Mail'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14030397/Charles-Andrews-cash-King-Harry-Meghan-revelations-book-Mail.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820
    edited November 1
    Eabhal said:

    I do hope public sector workers have now stfu from justifying the enormous ENIC increase

    The entire twenty-five billion employment tax is coming from the private sector

    That's £25b of redundancies, and of cancelled payrises and future hires

    And businesses folding

    It looks like an anti-growth economic plan to me

    I think the private:public sector thing is a red herring. I appreciate that's kinda your thing, but the real issue that this is a tax on "working people" whether they are sorting the bins out for the council or making soy lattes for a private sector business.

    The OBR have set out their expectations about pass-through to employment, wages, hours worked and so on - most of it to wages. It's chunky.There are interesting interactions at the bottom - the minimum wage cannot be squeezed so that must impact on employment and hours instead.

    And the change in the secondary threshold means the impact is much, much higher for part-time workers earning in and around £10,000 - that's single parents etc.

    The change in the employment allowance is great for very small businesses.

    But my challenge to you and others: if employer NICs is so pernicious, why do we have it all? And why didn't the Tories abolish it?
    The Tories chose to reduce employee NI and left employer NI unchanged. The net effect of the last 2 budgets is that NI overall is unchanged, but there has been a compulsory pay rise enforced on employers of 2% for their workers.
  • TimS said:

    I do hope public sector workers have now stfu from justifying the enormous ENIC increase

    The entire twenty-five billion employment tax is coming from the private sector

    That's £25b of redundancies, and of cancelled payrises and future hires

    And businesses folding

    It looks like an anti-growth economic plan to me

    Let’s not forget international context here. We still have one of the lowest rates of employers NI in the rich world. Netherlands 23%, Germany 20%, Poland 22%, everyone’s favourite Meloni’s Italy 30%, Spain 30%, France up to 50%. Even Singapore 17%. Puts our 15% in perspective. It’s pretty much bang on the global average.

    What is the employee rate in these countries?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477


    James Heale
    @JAHeale
    ·
    11m
    What a feat by Rishi Sunak, turning around a Labour lead of 20 points in just two short years

    Lol
    If only Rishi had hung on until January. We'd have seen an unprecedented fifth term.
    Tbh, I wish he had.

    We didn't have to have this shower for another 6 months.
    But we'd have had another six months of the last shower.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,477
    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    If Sunak and Dowden bow out we could see Mogg AND Truss.back in the saddle.
    No, Truss is gone had her day. Mogg however is certainly a possible future Tory leader and on tonight's BMG poll would win his seat back
    I was joking. They say the returnees are Mogg, Mordaunt and Shapps.
  • HYUFD said:

    'Charles finally cuts off Andrew's cash: King severs brother's '£1million-a-year' allowance - plus read more Harry and Meghan revelations in landmark new book serialised exclusively by the Mail'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14030397/Charles-Andrews-cash-King-Harry-Meghan-revelations-book-Mail.html

    No thank you - who cares ?
  • TimS said:

    I do hope public sector workers have now stfu from justifying the enormous ENIC increase

    The entire twenty-five billion employment tax is coming from the private sector

    That's £25b of redundancies, and of cancelled payrises and future hires

    And businesses folding

    It looks like an anti-growth economic plan to me

    Let’s not forget international context here. We still have one of the lowest rates of employers NI in the rich world. Netherlands 23%, Germany 20%, Poland 22%, everyone’s favourite Meloni’s Italy 30%, Spain 30%, France up to 50%. Even Singapore 17%. Puts our 15% in perspective. It’s pretty much bang on the global average.

    Interesting cherrypick of examples.

    Victoria, Australia 4.85% (and this is not the lowest rate in Australia, I just chose it as where I used to live).

    USA Federal 7.65%
  • HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    If Sunak and Dowden bow out we could see Mogg AND Truss.back in the saddle.
    No, Truss is gone had her day. Mogg however is certainly a possible future Tory leader and on tonight's BMG poll would win his seat back.

    Just as students, public sector workers and trade unionists and pacifists loved singing 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn', one can easily imagine farmers, small businessmen, army officers and hardcore Brexiteers singing 'Three cheers for the Mogg!'
    Only in your mind and a few other right wingers is Mogg the answer to anything
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,358
    Foss said:

    Some Scottish polling would be very interesting right now.

    The last Holyrood poll has the SNP with most seats but needing Tory confidence and supply for a majority
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820
    RobD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Box wine is dangerous

    Dangerously good value, you mean?
    Yes, in theory it keeps for weeks when open, in practice it is gone in no more than 2.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,820
    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    If Sunak and Dowden bow out we could see Mogg AND Truss.back in the saddle.
    No, Truss is gone had her day. Mogg however is certainly a possible future Tory leader and on tonight's BMG poll would win his seat back.

    Just as students, public sector workers and trade unionists and pacifists loved singing 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn', one can easily imagine farmers, small businessmen, army officers and hardcore Brexiteers singing 'Three cheers for the Mogg!'
    Have we reached peak @HYUFD or is there more?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,692
    FA Cup 1st round

    Tamworth 1
    Huddersfield 0
    44 mins
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,358
    'Spreadsheet man' Rishi Sunak ran the Tory train into the buffers - he's to blame for the Conservative Party's worst defeat in two centuries, writes LIZ TRUSS

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/mailplus/article-14030145/Spreadsheet-man-Rishi-Sunak-ran-Tory-train-buffers-hes-blame-Conservative-Partys-worst-defeat-two-centuries-writes-LIZ-TRUSS.html
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,442
    edited November 1
    Eabhal said:

    I do hope public sector workers have now stfu from justifying the enormous ENIC increase

    The entire twenty-five billion employment tax is coming from the private sector

    That's £25b of redundancies, and of cancelled payrises and future hires

    And businesses folding

    It looks like an anti-growth economic plan to me

    I think the private:public sector thing is a red herring. I appreciate that's kinda your thing, but the real issue that this is a tax on "working people" whether they are sorting the bins out for the council or making soy lattes for a private sector business.

    The OBR have set out their expectations about pass-through to employment, wages, hours worked and so on - most of it to wages. It's chunky.There are interesting interactions at the bottom - the minimum wage cannot be squeezed so that must impact on employment and hours instead.

    And the change in the secondary threshold means the impact is much, much higher for part-time workers earning in and around £10,000 - that's single parents etc.

    The change in the employment allowance is great for very small businesses.

    But my challenge to you and others: if employer NICs is so pernicious, why do we have it all? And why didn't the Tories abolish it?
    TLDR: We have it because Governments want to effectively boost Income Tax without the appearance of boosting income tax. Ditto for Corporation Tax. Ditto the Tories.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    RobD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Box wine is dangerous

    Dangerously good value, you mean?
    As I understand it, the older crowd like it because when they put their bins out the neighbours don't see a ton of empty wine bottles in the recycling.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,358
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Uniform swing, so you know the song... But it does highlight the right's problem.

    There is a Lib-Lab split, but (at least for now) it's a helpful efficient split; the two parties don't trip over each other in many places.

    The RefCon split just hurts each party. And I don't see how they get even as far as non-aggression without a slice of centrish-right votes peeling off the Conservatives.
    There are few centre right swing voters left to peel off the Tories, they are down to their core vote. Indeed arguably if Badenoch or Jenrick doesn't work out at the next GE they might even be better with Rees Mogg, he really would unite the Right and collapse the Reform vote to the Tories and with a Labour vote already under 30% would have a shot at PM even with FPTP. Rees Mogg would regain his Somerset seat on the BMG poll today.

    Remember too many centrists mocked Jezza but they weren't laughing on election night 2017 when he united the left behind Labour and got 40% of the vote, a hung parliament and 262 Labour MPs.

    Even in 2019 when he lost heavily Labour got a higher voteshare under Corbyn than it had under Brown or Ed Miliband
    Rees Mogg is a dinosaur and not an mp anyway
    If Sunak and Dowden bow out we could see Mogg AND Truss.back in the saddle.
    No, Truss is gone had her day. Mogg however is certainly a possible future Tory leader and on tonight's BMG poll would win his seat back.

    Just as students, public sector workers and trade unionists and pacifists loved singing 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn', one can easily imagine farmers, small businessmen, army officers and hardcore Brexiteers singing 'Three cheers for the Mogg!'
    Have we reached peak @HYUFD or is there more?
    Win or lose rightwingers would have great fun with Mogg as leader while centre left centrists go in full panic mode.

    Much as leftwingers had great fun under Corbyn while centre right centrists were in full panic mode and Corbyn to be fair to him even managed a hung parliament in 2017
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685
    HYUFD said:

    'Spreadsheet man' Rishi Sunak ran the Tory train into the buffers - he's to blame for the Conservative Party's worst defeat in two centuries, writes LIZ TRUSS

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/mailplus/article-14030145/Spreadsheet-man-Rishi-Sunak-ran-Tory-train-buffers-hes-blame-Conservative-Partys-worst-defeat-two-centuries-writes-LIZ-TRUSS.html

    Isn’t it amazing she still has the capacity to do harm. Isn’t there someone in her life who could have a quiet word?
This discussion has been closed.