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Ayrshire hotelier remains the favourite to win the American presidency – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381
    rcs1000 said:

    This is an interesting Reddit AMA from someone who met Trump when he was working at NATO:\

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1gaf3aw/i_met_donald_when_he_was_president_of_the_united/

    TL;DR

    Not an idiot, can be charming. Tends to be vain and narcissistic.

    Which I realize probably aligns with what many of us already think.

    Certainly no idiot but I don’t detect the charm. Comes over to me as shallow and hackneyed and boorish. No chance of getting my room number. In fact I wouldn't want to stick around if he was anywhere in the vicinity.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,618

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Labour Party staff are now cancelling their trips to help out team Kamala following Trumps complaint.

    Clearly a nothing story !!

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1849144596946682208?s=61

    This activity has been going on since at least 1992. The Conservative Party got into a tiny bit of hot water with Clinton. This furore has been engineered by the Telegraph. Robert Buckland has been campaigning for Harris and said it was something of nothing. Farage on the other hand is outraged as he flew out of Heathrow to offer his shoulder for Trump to cry on*

    * My editorial licence .
    Indeed. Trumpgate is arguably an even weaker Gate than CURRYGATE or - the classic of the genre - Donkeygate.

    But one senses that the PB Tories need a new Gate every day, simply to keep them smiling.
    The trend is your friend. Labour is heading towards Sunak levels of polling over the coming months.
    Who cares?
    Labour MPs?
    Not really. There’s no election for nearly five years. The polling now when Labour are trying to sort out the country is completely irrelevant.
    Except, it's not irrelevant, is it?

    You can't just do whatever the fuck you like to whomever you like in the months after a general election and just assume a good number of those same people will return to your colours 4 years later.

    They might, if you explain why it was necessary, deliver on your manifesto, achieve good results, and you still look like the better alternative come the next election, but there's no law that says that must happen. You must work for it. Hard.

    The more likely default is you just piss off groups of your voting coalition for good.
    Labour will be judged on whether it sorts out housing, health and infrastructure. Not the latest Gate being promoted by a bored and hypocritical media.
    Do you think the last Conservative administration was judged by Partygate?
    Yes, because the PM broke his own law. Can you point me to the law that Labour have broken?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is an interesting Reddit AMA from someone who met Trump when he was working at NATO:\

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1gaf3aw/i_met_donald_when_he_was_president_of_the_united/

    TL;DR

    Not an idiot, can be charming. Tends to be vain and narcissistic.

    Which I realize probably aligns with what many of us already think.

    Certainly no idiot but I don’t detect the charm. Comes over to me as shallow and hackneyed and boorish. No chance of getting my room number. In fact I wouldn't want to stick around if he was anywhere in the vicinity.
    With age the weird gear grinding patter has become much more pronounced.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    I think narcissism basically explains all of Trumps actions, I don't think it goes any deeper than that. It makes him totally unsuitable to be POTUS and why if he wins again I think we will again see these crazy goings on in the White House as people get regularly sacked or leave and bouncing all over the place like a damaged shopping trolley.

    But I am not convinced he has this carefully crafted plan to turn the US into some fascist dictatorship. However, it doesn't mean that his narcissism and unpredictability isn't dangerous, particularly in the world as it is as the moment.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,689
    Regarding a Trump victory, the Tories need to be careful what they wish for. After fourteen years they're finally in a position where they can sit back, relax and attack Sir Keir and Labour. Do they really want to have to divide their time over the next four years defending every weird and wonderful action and utterance of Donald Trump? Better a Kamala victory so, when the time comes, they can run with a (real or imagined) 'the Left has failed wherever it's manifested itself in the western world' narrative.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,618

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    What on Earth are you on about now? Are you pissed or sleep-deprived again?
  • Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Ugh.

    Unions given twice as long to strike as Labour boosts workers’ rights

    Employment Rights Bill would relax restrictions on unions and extends the strike window to 12 months


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/unions-given-twice-as-long-to-strike-as-labour-boosts-workers-rights-9ncvccdk3

    I think it is becoming increasingly likely that Labour aren’t going to do anything much to fix the country or economy, just cater to their special interests and fiddle while Rome burns. I hope I’m wrong.
    I have a real feeling of Buyers remorse. I expected a government in waiting that was going to hit the ground running. What we have is a govt of mediocre middle managers with moderate policies aimed at their own special interest groups.

    It really is continuity Sunak with a man who has even less charisma now running the nation.
    Labour had a good first couple of weeks I thought. The big event is clearly the budget, and always has been. Reeves has been preparing this for years, and Starmer has been backing Reeves at every step for years.

    Who knows if it will make any sense, but I think it's likely to be reasonably ok.

    If it's received well then there's some chance that the clown show that is the cabinet up their game. If received badly then it'll be a very, very long winter for Labour. (Relieved only by the warming bonfire that is the Tories)


    I'm an ex-Tory, so not a Labour backer, but I really don't want to see them crash and burn this early in their run. They are after all running the shop.
    The budget will not be received well.

    Even with all the dooming and glooming they've done to prepare people for the worst there are still threads on mumsnet expecting them to pull something out of the hat and cut taxes.

    Suppose that it's objectively a good budget. It raises only as much money as is needed, from the sources which will do least damage to growth. It makes steps to fixing priority areas of public services, infrastructure and weaknesses in the economy.

    Do you honestly think Reeves and Starmer can sell it?

    Britain could have a budget surplus with debt to GDP low enough to cause the pension industry issues, gleaming infrastructure, a booking economy and efficient public services and I'd still back Starmer and Reeves to bungle the messaging on a giveaway budget.
    They don't have to sell it, they've five years to do stuff that they believe will change the country for the better. They can then be judged on the outcome.

    IMO the absolute worst scenario is they produce a fiscally light, highly constrained budget with the promise of jam for the already jammy in 2029. The nation needs to become more than a retirement home with London bolted on the side..
    They need to sell it, because they need a story to explain to people why pain now is worth it, and what improvements later it will bring. Otherwise they don't get the credit for good things, and people don't understand why the bad things had to happen.
    The point is, it's 5 years to the next election. You don't need to sell it, it should have results inside 5 years. All governments should do the unpopular things in year 1 and not bother to explain.
    That's madness. You think that's how Cameron managed to get re-elected in 2015, simply by having results to show at the end of five years?

    He only managed to scrape a narrow majority because the Tories had a consistent message that they'd been telling from since before the 2010 election - that Labour had wrecked the public finances and the country had to pull together to fix them. Without that story they would have lost.

    Labour need a similar story. The budget is the next - and possibly last - chance for them to start telling such a story. If they leave it until 2029 it will be too late.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,304
    edited October 23

    One thing that has got relatively attention here is the defection of Tulsi Gabbard to the Republicans, which I find rather interesting.

    Hilary Clinton's dismissal of her as a Russian asset is rather unconvincing, in this respect, and there's some interesting signs here and there of Trumo picking up a few anti-war votes that would have been Democrat.two decades ago. I've also several Trunmpists using formulations about the IraqmWar that.actually originate on the U.K left.

    Is it that surprising? During the 2020 primary campaign she was clearly dramatically out of line with her party over... well... everything.

    And let's not forget, she met with Trump - while a Democratic Congresswoman - to pitch to be his Secretary of State. That was back in 2016.

    I think she's been Trump-adjacent for a long time.

    Edit to add: she was also the only Democrat not to vote for Trump's impeachment back in 2019.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,035
    Rumours of another story about to break

    For a guy who claimed "you can grab them by the pussy" it doesn't seem like it would move the needle much
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,035
    @SethAbramson

    Lawsuit incoming, I presume.

    Elon is absolutely *out of control*.

    I have no idea exactly what's going on, but if you told me that there's an ongoing criminal investigation of Musk that he can only avoid if Trump is elected that's just about the only explanation I would believe.

    https://x.com/SethAbramson/status/1849160886218621131
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Musk might own twitter, Xi's CCP has direct control over TikTok....and that is just one small piece of everything they control that has direct impact in the west.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,505
    Nigelb said:

    Kamala Harris’ remarks on Hitler:

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1849137011875061970

    Less adulatory than Trump's, I hope ?
    There is a good analysis on ITV news. Harris' presser was in relation to Republican Generals calling Trump a fascist. It was also suggested that the argument with Labour is a post election defeat counterpoint to Russian interference, in order.to claim an international conspiracy to steal the election. They also put into context Truss and Farage speaking for Trump. Although Farage claimed it was an outrage that Labour have insulted Trump but it is fine for him to bad mouth Harris.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,522
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685
    Trump is a wrecking ball.

    Some, but not all, on the right seem so delighted that he is agitates against their pet hates like ‘woke’, they excuse him and ask us to overlook that he’s also against things they used to care about like democratic transfer of power and nato.

    It is a concern when people turn a blind eye to big things like that. It ends badly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    There are also cooler heads like Bill Ackman also backing Trump,

    33 Reasons to Vote for Trump - Bill Ackman
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLlJmxPS2k

    Personally I don't get it, but Musk isn't a massive outlier, there are wealthy smart people who previously where never Trump, who are now backing him in his election. If I was cynical, it is because they believe a Trump presidency is good for their financial interests, but they didn't go out on a limb like this before.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,618

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Ugh.

    Unions given twice as long to strike as Labour boosts workers’ rights

    Employment Rights Bill would relax restrictions on unions and extends the strike window to 12 months


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/unions-given-twice-as-long-to-strike-as-labour-boosts-workers-rights-9ncvccdk3

    I think it is becoming increasingly likely that Labour aren’t going to do anything much to fix the country or economy, just cater to their special interests and fiddle while Rome burns. I hope I’m wrong.
    I have a real feeling of Buyers remorse. I expected a government in waiting that was going to hit the ground running. What we have is a govt of mediocre middle managers with moderate policies aimed at their own special interest groups.

    It really is continuity Sunak with a man who has even less charisma now running the nation.
    Labour had a good first couple of weeks I thought. The big event is clearly the budget, and always has been. Reeves has been preparing this for years, and Starmer has been backing Reeves at every step for years.

    Who knows if it will make any sense, but I think it's likely to be reasonably ok.

    If it's received well then there's some chance that the clown show that is the cabinet up their game. If received badly then it'll be a very, very long winter for Labour. (Relieved only by the warming bonfire that is the Tories)


    I'm an ex-Tory, so not a Labour backer, but I really don't want to see them crash and burn this early in their run. They are after all running the shop.
    The budget will not be received well.

    Even with all the dooming and glooming they've done to prepare people for the worst there are still threads on mumsnet expecting them to pull something out of the hat and cut taxes.

    Suppose that it's objectively a good budget. It raises only as much money as is needed, from the sources which will do least damage to growth. It makes steps to fixing priority areas of public services, infrastructure and weaknesses in the economy.

    Do you honestly think Reeves and Starmer can sell it?

    Britain could have a budget surplus with debt to GDP low enough to cause the pension industry issues, gleaming infrastructure, a booking economy and efficient public services and I'd still back Starmer and Reeves to bungle the messaging on a giveaway budget.
    They don't have to sell it, they've five years to do stuff that they believe will change the country for the better. They can then be judged on the outcome.

    IMO the absolute worst scenario is they produce a fiscally light, highly constrained budget with the promise of jam for the already jammy in 2029. The nation needs to become more than a retirement home with London bolted on the side..
    They need to sell it, because they need a story to explain to people why pain now is worth it, and what improvements later it will bring. Otherwise they don't get the credit for good things, and people don't understand why the bad things had to happen.
    The point is, it's 5 years to the next election. You don't need to sell it, it should have results inside 5 years. All governments should do the unpopular things in year 1 and not bother to explain.
    That's madness. You think that's how Cameron managed to get re-elected in 2015, simply by having results to show at the end of five years?

    He only managed to scrape a narrow majority because the Tories had a consistent message that they'd been telling from since before the 2010 election - that Labour had wrecked the public finances and the country had to pull together to fix them. Without that story they would have lost.

    Labour need a similar story. The budget is the next - and possibly last - chance for them to start telling such a story. If they leave it until 2029 it will be too late.
    ….
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,194
    edited October 23
    To change the subject for a mo', the PB consensus recently was that Progressive Conservatives lost so many seats in New Brunswick because they were too woke - "go woke, get broke" as the saying has it. But according to this blog post, it appears it was because he was too anti-woke. Do we have any Canadians who can add clarity?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
    There is a streak of bully in me. That’s perceptive

    And sometimes I do it on here - it’s better vented on here than in real life, and besides I get as good as I give (and I never whine) and I have a rule never to pick on someone obviously troubled

    But @SouthamObserver on the prior thread?! Give over. I like @SouthamObserver and

    1. He really was talking corrosive drivel
    2. He can definitely take it anyway
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    As I say, I personally don't see it, but Musk is far from the only rich and powerful person that has decided this time around to go into bat for Trump that didn't in the previous elections. We saw the chart the other day how the donations from tech bros has changed this time around.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,939
    edited October 23
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    He certainly wasn't an idiot when he was younger.

    He lost money, running a casino...

    Genius
    For those interested the rather complicated story of Trump's adventures in Casino land are set out here: https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/heres-how-donald-trump-bankrupted-his-atlantic-city-casinos-but-he-still/2281296/

    The word that they use is pillage. At every stage companies that were losing money hand over fist paid him absurd sums and provided financing for his other ventures. So, his companies never made money but Donald R Trump seems to have done very nicely. Its very much of a piece with the steps for which he has now been convicted in New York.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Mmm sure ... "panties"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,505
    Jonathan said:

    Trump is a wrecking ball.

    Some, but not all, on the right seem so delighted that he is agitates against their pet hates like ‘woke’, they excuse him and ask us to overlook that he’s also against things they used to care about like democratic transfer of power and nato.

    It is a concern when people turn a blind eye to big things like that. It ends badly.

    I believe that to be accurate. I also think you are right that the Supreme Court is a danger to democracy.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,689

    Nigelb said:

    Kamala Harris’ remarks on Hitler:

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1849137011875061970

    Less adulatory than Trump's, I hope ?
    There is a good analysis on ITV news. Harris' presser was in relation to Republican Generals calling Trump a fascist. It was also suggested that the argument with Labour is a post election defeat counterpoint to Russian interference, in order.to claim an international conspiracy to steal the election. They also put into context Truss and Farage speaking for Trump. Although Farage claimed it was an outrage that Labour have insulted Trump but it is fine for him to bad mouth Harris.
    This is worrying. Combine what Trump is saying - Britain is an anti-democratic foreign power - and what Musk propagated during the riots - civil war, emergency detainment camps - and it's clear they intend to portray Sir Keir as Britain Putin. Where will this end? The US aiding Farage in a 'pro-democratic' coup? Is that really wholly fanciful?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,618
    Jonathan said:

    Trump is a wrecking ball.

    Some, but not all, on the right seem so delighted that he is agitates against their pet hates like ‘woke’, they excuse him and ask us to overlook that he’s also against things they used to care about like democratic transfer of power and nato.

    It is a concern when people turn a blind eye to big things like that. It ends badly.

    It’s the “he hates the same people I hate” mentality. A really ugly dynamic: first that you should actively hate people who you perceive might disagree with you, second that you are happy to appoint cowboys like Trump as a standard bearer for that hate. It’s outright weird.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    He certainly wasn't an idiot when he was younger.

    He lost money, running a casino...

    Genius
    For those interested the rather complicated story of Trump's adventures in Casino land are set out here: https://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/heres-how-donald-trump-bankrupted-his-atlantic-city-casinos-but-he-still/2281296/

    The word that they use is pillage. At every stage companies that were losing money hand over fist paid him absurd sums and provided financing for his other ventures. So, his companies never made money but Donald R Trump seems to have done very nicely.
    It is the same with lots of real estate people think he personally put money into because his name is on the building, when it was a brand deal, he got paid and it mattered not what happened there after. It is a bit like Richard Branson in that respect with the Virgin brand.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,505
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
    There were a few Crabbe and Goyle's to Leon's Malfoy this afternoon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,255
    Jonathan said:

    Trump is a wrecking ball.

    Some, but not all, on the right seem so delighted that he is agitates against their pet hates like ‘woke’, they excuse him and ask us to overlook that he’s also against things they used to care about like democratic transfer of power and nato.

    It is a concern when people turn a blind eye to big things like that. It ends badly.

    "Upsets the right people" has always been a spectacularly dumb measure, but people do appear to find it an attractive one on left and right.

    Enjoy someone upsetting the right people, sure, who doesn't like to see their political opponents getting mocked or angered from time to time? I sure do.

    But it can never be the whole of what someone offers, and might not be a good idea if it is the primary reason either - that way lies the kind of 'X attacks Y because they fear Y, and that's why I like them' reasoning that leads to people to think attacks on Corbyn were because of fear he would win, rather than, you know, attacks. Sometimes an attack is just an attack.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,255
    edited October 23
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Well, we will never no counterfactuals.

    But I think this is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    Maybe about 5% of (potential) Republican voters may agree. Hopefully that is enough.

    Americans are a shockingly forgiving bunch, as it turns out.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    What on Earth are you on about now? Are you pissed or sleep-deprived again?
    You wouldn't recognise analysis if it came up and knocked you right on the head, because it's totally alien to you if you don't like it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,522

    Nigelb said:

    Kamala Harris’ remarks on Hitler:

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1849137011875061970

    Less adulatory than Trump's, I hope ?
    There is a good analysis on ITV news. Harris' presser was in relation to Republican Generals calling Trump a fascist. It was also suggested that the argument with Labour is a post election defeat counterpoint to Russian interference, in order.to claim an international conspiracy to steal the election. They also put into context Truss and Farage speaking for Trump. Although Farage claimed it was an outrage that Labour have insulted Trump but it is fine for him to bad mouth Harris.
    This is worrying. Combine what Trump is saying - Britain is an anti-democratic foreign power - and what Musk propagated during the riots - civil war, emergency detainment camps - and it's clear they intend to portray Sir Keir as Britain Putin. Where will this end? The US aiding Farage in a 'pro-democratic' coup? Is that really wholly fanciful?
    Somewhat.

    As is the idea that what's good for half a dozen billionaires is good for the US.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,837
    edited October 23
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632

    I just don't get it. I really don't.

    iirc Trump had really poor favourability ratings through most his presidency.

    Now they want him back?

    He still has bad ratings now. But inflation has meant the vast majority of governments across the democratic world have been kicked out. That it is close is a reflection that Trump is rubbish and unpopular.
    Trump's net approval running up to the 2016 Presidential election was at -21. After his post-election honeymoon, he regained those lows after about a year, but then his rating improved, and by polling day 2020 his net ratings were about -8. Following Jan 6th his ratings tanked again, but actually only down to -20. He's currently at -9.

    This is a good rating for Trump. It's his best score since four years ago. In the whole time that he has been active in politics he's only had a better rating very briefly, at the end of March 2020 at the start of the Covid pandemic, when he reached the giddy heights of -4.

    And, well, if you compare Biden's ratings during his Presidency, with Trump's ratings during his, Trump doesn't do too badly out of the comparison.

    Trump is a lot more popular than people are willing to give him credit for.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Exactly right. China is the iceberg, Musk is the crazy polar bear.

    One of Leon's better ones and it fits here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Well, we will never no counterfactuals.

    But I think this is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    Well, I tend to agree with you

    But you’re missing my point. Musk is one of the most intelligent men of our era. A proper genius. He’s also a flawed, thin skinned, sometimes credulous knobhead

    But which Musk has decided that Trump is a necessary evil? The genius or the knobhead? The guy who calls people pedos on TwiX or the guy that can send us to Mars in five years?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,522
    Jonathan said:

    Trump is a wrecking ball.

    Some, but not all, on the right seem so delighted that he is agitates against their pet hates like ‘woke’, they excuse him and ask us to overlook that he’s also against things they used to care about like democratic transfer of power and nato.

    It is a concern when people turn a blind eye to big things like that. It ends badly.

    He's pulled a neater trick than that.

    He's baited liberal American into attacking him - and persuaded the rest that when he's attacked, that it's an attack on them.

    His 'I'm for the working guy' image is a complete con, but it's an effective one.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Right. Musk is more immediately pressing than Xi because REASONS.

    I doubt you're even convincing yourselves.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,304
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Well, we will never no counterfactuals.

    But I think this is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    Well, I tend to agree with you

    But you’re missing my point. Musk is one of the most intelligent men of our era. A proper genius. He’s also a flawed, thin skinned, sometimes credulous knobhead

    But which Musk has decided that Trump is a necessary evil? The genius or the knobhead? The guy who calls people pedos on TwiX or the guy that can send us to Mars in five years?
    Because one of his children is non-binary, and refuses to speak to him, and now pronouns are a hill to die on?

    I mean even geniuses will occasionally get ridiculous notions.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close. TikTok is nearly 3x as big (and that doesn't include any Chinese users), Telegram is 1.5x as big and far worse for every type of extremist and criminal content. What twitter does has is any oversized importance of those in the Western media and hence why the outrage their twitter has changed for the worse since Musk took over.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    He's a threat, no question. I'm hoping for a downfall a la Robert Maxwell.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Mmm sure ... "panties"
    Wrong chat?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,837

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close.
    It is (or used to be) the one of choice for politics and current affairs.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    This is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    The problem is though, that his simply existing as the other candidate in the system breaks the system, even if he doesn't win.

    Because, as you say, any right-thinking believer in Democracy must vote for whoever is up against Trump, because to do otherwise would be to imperil the Democratic system as a whole. But then that means that the system is already broken, because whatever daft rubbish the other side do, or whatever daft candidate they put up, the good citizen cannot vote against them to get rid of them when the alternative is Trump. They cannot kick out the government.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
    There were a few Crabbe and Goyle's to Leon's Malfoy this afternoon.
    Some people on here get influenced by Leon in a manner that is somewhat pathetic.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,837

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Right. Musk is more immediately pressing than Xi because REASONS.

    I doubt you're even convincing yourselves.
    It is perfectly possible to oppose both Xi and Musk.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,304

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Right. Musk is more immediately pressing than Xi because REASONS.

    I doubt you're even convincing yourselves.
    I don't think Musk is a serious threat to democracy. Or indeed any particular threat to democracy.

    I do increasingly think he's a bit of a think skinned dick, whose commitment to free speech is merely commitment to free speech he happens to agree with. But he owns Twitter, and he's free to do what he wants with it.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 717
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Musk may or may not be a genius but regardless he has his political prejudices like any person. Northcliffe was a business genius but had ridiculous political beliefs about a lot of things.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
    There were a few Crabbe and Goyle's to Leon's Malfoy this afternoon.
    Some people on here get influenced by Leon in a manner that is somewhat pathetic.
    That’s a little harsh on yourself, if I may say so
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,304

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    This is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    The problem is though, that his simply existing as the other candidate in the system breaks the system, even if he doesn't win.

    Because, as you say, any right-thinking believer in Democracy must vote for whoever is up against Trump, because to do otherwise would be to imperil the Democratic system as a whole. But then that means that the system is already broken, because whatever daft rubbish the other side do, or whatever daft candidate they put up, the good citizen cannot vote against them to get rid of them when the alternative is Trump. They cannot kick out the government.
    I don't think that follows. I might be happy to lend my vote to Harris for President, while voting for (say) Rick Scott for the Senate.

    Indeed, we saw that a lot at the midterms, with Trump adjacent candidates often dramatically underperforming their moderate colleagues for state-wide office.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.

    I think this is the simple lens he has always operated. I will hustle and cheat at everything from business to golf.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,565
    Foxy said:

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Right. Musk is more immediately pressing than Xi because REASONS.

    I doubt you're even convincing yourselves.
    It is perfectly possible to oppose both Xi and Musk.
    Total non sequitur.

    It's perfectly possible to oppose SKS and Xi. It's perfectly possible to dislike custard and broccoli. It's perfectly possible to dislike Bake Off and Czech folkdance.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    He's a threat, no question. I'm hoping for a downfall a la Robert Maxwell.
    My grand theory of Musk is that he has a very porous head. He had quite a different outlook on life when he was going out with Grimes, I think he's easily swayed and wants to be loved.

    I hope he gets a nice girlfriend with fun friends and starts hanging around with them instead of the Silicon Valley reactionaries.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,307
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    This is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    And part of the problem with American democracy is that, even without Trump, that "kick them out" mechanism is looking pretty flaky. He's just a (very extreme) symptom.

    How much that's the electoral structure, how much is campaign finance, how much it's "choose your own news" media, I don't know. But the feedback loops that cause defeated political parties to course-correct don't seem to operate in the US. They're slow and lumpy enough over here.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,618

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    What on Earth are you on about now? Are you pissed or sleep-deprived again?
    You wouldn't recognise analysis if it came up and knocked you right on the head, because it's totally alien to you if you don't like it.
    What on Earth are you on about?
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 717
    Foxy said:

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Right. Musk is more immediately pressing than Xi because REASONS.

    I doubt you're even convincing yourselves.
    It is perfectly possible to oppose both Xi and Musk.
    I've said before that the West has to navigate the two different kinds of danger that Xi and Putin represents. Xi wants the west to fall asleep into quiet decline whilst still being stable enough to serve as a market to buy Chinese goods. Putin is an anarchist who wants the west to explode into chaos. Musk seems much more the latter type to me. Maybe people like Musk can be the shot of adrenaline that the West needs to stay vital but equally we need leaders strong enough to make sure that they don't overdose the patient.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    As I say, I personally don't see it, but Musk is far from the only rich and powerful person that has decided this time around to go into bat for Trump that didn't in the previous elections. We saw the chart the other day how the donations from tech bros has changed this time around.
    You don't see much of concern in Musk's political activities? I do.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,795

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close. TikTok is nearly 3x as big (and that doesn't include any Chinese users), Telegram is 1.5x as big and far worse for every type of extremist and criminal content. What twitter does has is any oversized importance of those in the Western media and hence why the outrage their twitter has changed for the worse since Musk took over.
    Well, that's why twitter is still the most important platform. No other place sets the agenda to the same extent, except perhaps reddit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,255
    rcs1000 said:

    Musk is a more immediately pressing issue than Xi because of intertwined British and American everyday cultures, economies avd militaries, as discussed earlier in the day, and the way in which this was demonstrated n August.

    He's also an influence that we may be able to do significantly more about, in the short-term.

    Right. Musk is more immediately pressing than Xi because REASONS.

    I doubt you're even convincing yourselves.
    I don't think Musk is a serious threat to democracy. Or indeed any particular threat to democracy.

    I do increasingly think he's a bit of a think skinned dick, whose commitment to free speech is merely commitment to free speech he happens to agree with. But he owns Twitter, and he's free to do what he wants with it.
    I prefer my billionaire tycoons to be faceless mysteries. Give them a twitter account to sound off and you can see they can be as petty and dumb on occasion as everyone else, which is depressing. I'd like to think at least it was a bunch of ruthless, controlled, masterminds with so much power, rather than a group of weirdo tech bros (who are also ruthless, but less controlled).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    He's a threat, no question. I'm hoping for a downfall a la Robert Maxwell.
    My grand theory of Musk is that he has a very porous head. He had quite a different outlook on life when he was going out with Grimes, I think he's easily swayed and wants to be loved.

    I hope he gets a nice girlfriend with fun friends and starts hanging around with them instead of the Silicon Valley reactionaries.
    Yes I'd settle for that. And that would be nicer than a Maxwell.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close.
    It is (or used to be) the one of choice for politics and current affairs.
    It popular among those who are heavily engaged in the media and in politics. But I think its a bit like the Guardian, in that those in those industries it has this oversized importance, but most people never read it, instead they on the Daily Mail sidebar of shame looking at Jordan's latest boob job...in the case of social media, these days its TikTok for youngsters, Instanta for the gen Z's and Facebook for the oldies far outweigh twitter active users. The extremists are more often than not on Telegram, with it ability to form these giant groups that allow mass broadcasting with even less censorship than twitter.

    That plus the fact twitter has always had a problem knowing their users to be able to target ads to made it a stupid investment.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,505

    Nigelb said:

    Kamala Harris’ remarks on Hitler:

    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1849137011875061970

    Less adulatory than Trump's, I hope ?
    There is a good analysis on ITV news. Harris' presser was in relation to Republican Generals calling Trump a fascist. It was also suggested that the argument with Labour is a post election defeat counterpoint to Russian interference, in order.to claim an international conspiracy to steal the election. They also put into context Truss and Farage speaking for Trump. Although Farage claimed it was an outrage that Labour have insulted Trump but it is fine for him to bad mouth Harris.
    This is worrying. Combine what Trump is saying - Britain is an anti-democratic foreign power - and what Musk propagated during the riots - civil war, emergency detainment camps - and it's clear they intend to portray Sir Keir as Britain Putin. Where will this end? The US aiding Farage in a 'pro-democratic' coup? Is that really wholly fanciful?
    Unlikely, I can't see that without a full scale invasion. If that is on the radar why not carve up Europe with Putin. Britain Ireland, Greenland and Iceland as US protectorates and mainland Europe to Greater Russia?

    Rather far fetched although on a day when 5* Generals are branding Trump a fascist, strange things could come to pass.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Mmm sure ... "panties"
    Wrong chat?
    If only.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,963
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Mmm sure ... "panties"
    "Squirrel Covers"
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    This is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    The problem is though, that his simply existing as the other candidate in the system breaks the system, even if he doesn't win.

    Because, as you say, any right-thinking believer in Democracy must vote for whoever is up against Trump, because to do otherwise would be to imperil the Democratic system as a whole. But then that means that the system is already broken, because whatever daft rubbish the other side do, or whatever daft candidate they put up, the good citizen cannot vote against them to get rid of them when the alternative is Trump. They cannot kick out the government.
    I don't think that follows. I might be happy to lend my vote to Harris for President, while voting for (say) Rick Scott for the Senate.

    Indeed, we saw that a lot at the midterms, with Trump adjacent candidates often dramatically underperforming their moderate colleagues for state-wide office.
    You could still vote for Republicans in the House and Senate, and I guess that does help. But you're still locked into voting for not-Trump in the Presidential election, come what may.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,307
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    Well, we will never no counterfactuals.

    But I think this is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    Well, I tend to agree with you

    But you’re missing my point. Musk is one of the most intelligent men of our era. A proper genius. He’s also a flawed, thin skinned, sometimes credulous knobhead

    But which Musk has decided that Trump is a necessary evil? The genius or the knobhead? The guy who calls people pedos on TwiX or the guy that can send us to Mars in five years?
    When memes were still a newish thing, there was a "should you pay attention to Richard Dawkins?" meme.

    "If he is talking about evolutionary biology: YES.
    If he is talking about anything else: NO."

    Substitute "engineering" for "evolutionary biology", and you can probably apply the same to Musk.

    It's easy to see how his knobheadery transfers over to political discourse. Much harder to see how his genius does.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 717
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
    I think that's true and I can see why that characteristic of Trump can be attractive to US voters. However much we pay lip service to the higher ideal of an international order most of us secretly want our country to come out on top. It's why Mrs Thatcher's rebate went down well with voters whilst making some higher minded folk tut.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close. TikTok is nearly 3x as big (and that doesn't include any Chinese users), Telegram is 1.5x as big and far worse for every type of extremist and criminal content. What twitter does has is any oversized importance of those in the Western media and hence why the outrage their twitter has changed for the worse since Musk took over.
    Well, that's why twitter is still the most important platform. No other place sets the agenda to the same extent, except perhaps reddit.
    It does and it doesn't. Besides the bots, those opinion formers are the really active ones talking to one another in their bubbles, then occasionally they will say look at all this horrid stuff on there, it must be brain washing the masses....Reddit is weirdly where a lot of people get news / current affairs and the masses are on TikTok watching brain rot with the CCP thumb on the scale or Instanta looking at photoshopped fitness models or on Facebook on their community group complaining about the bins. The extremists are on Telegram.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,381
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
    There were a few Crabbe and Goyle's to Leon's Malfoy this afternoon.
    Some people on here get influenced by Leon in a manner that is somewhat pathetic.
    That’s a little harsh on yourself, if I may say so
    Ho ho. You're a drivel monger.

    Anyway "gotta" go now. Late.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
    Trump saw Nordstream as a bad deal for him - because it would lead to Germany buying Russian gas instead of US gas. That's all. You can't honestly think he gave a rat's arse about whether the deal would be good for Germany.

    You're always projecting things onto Trump to convince yourself that there's more to him than there is.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    He's a threat, no question. I'm hoping for a downfall a la Robert Maxwell.
    My grand theory of Musk is that he has a very porous head. He had quite a different outlook on life when he was going out with Grimes, I think he's easily swayed and wants to be loved.

    I hope he gets a nice girlfriend with fun friends and starts hanging around with them instead of the Silicon Valley reactionaries.
    Yes I'd settle for that. And that would be nicer than a Maxwell.
    The liberal countries need to up their game with influence operations instead of leaving all the bold moves to Putin. Talk to the Musk ex-wives and find out what he's into, find a nice lady from Latvian intelligence etc etc.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 717

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
    Trump saw Nordstream as a bad deal for him - because it would lead to Germany buying Russian gas instead of US gas. That's all. You can't honestly think he gave a rat's arse about whether the deal would be good for Germany.

    You're always projecting things onto Trump to convince yourself that there's more to him than there is.
    Isn't that him just doing his job though? He's elected as President of the United States not the President of United Earth.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,731

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    There are also cooler heads like Bill Ackman also backing Trump,

    33 Reasons to Vote for Trump - Bill Ackman
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLlJmxPS2k

    Personally I don't get it, but Musk isn't a massive outlier, there are wealthy smart people who previously where never Trump, who are now backing him in his election. If I was cynical, it is because they believe a Trump presidency is good for their financial interests, but they didn't go out on a limb like this before.
    I think it's right to be cynical and of course some very rich people did go out on a limb. The Koch brothers, the Mercers built entire political machines based around furthering right-wing policies that suited their interests. Not to mention Mr Murdoch. Peter Thiel's involvement in politics predates Trump - and in many ways he's the model Musk's emulating, and they of course have a shared business history.

    For the likes of Musk, Trumpism's mix of libertarianism for me (those with wealth), authoritarianism for thee (those without) and entirely transactional foreign policy hits a sweet spot that suits him personally, and like many of us he conflates what's in his interests with the greater good. There's a fairly long history of businessmen supporting far right political movements or politicians as long as given a free hand to do what they want.

    What arguably has changed since 2016 and 2020 is that the aforementioned billionaires who predated Trump or backed him early didn't care much about their public image and being associated with those culturally we had down as 'the baddies'. Many of them revelled in it in fact. Musk really does care what people think of him - have you ever seen someone so desperate to be liked he'd buy a social network and set fire to it so he could be its King?

    When Trump first came along he was uncouth, bizarre, and was culturally cringe. Supporting him was low status - it was what people who watch Duck Dynasty and marry their cousin did - and he was a losing cause in 2016 until midway through election night. In 2020, thanks to his often bizarre Covid pronouncements it remained low status. So you had to really not care what people thought of you and that you wouldn't be getting fancy gala invites anymore to publicly back him.

    He still is one of the tackiest human beings who ever drew breath. Since then though, thanks to some cultural overreach from progressives, being right-wing in the US at least has gained more cultural cache, as there's now an entire alternative media ecosystem that has its own stars and heroes. So the barrier to supporting Trump has dropped - who cares if Leonardo DiCaprio and George Clooney think you're scum if Joe Rogan and Dana White are partying with you?


  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
    Trump saw Nordstream as a bad deal for him - because it would lead to Germany buying Russian gas instead of US gas. That's all. You can't honestly think he gave a rat's arse about whether the deal would be good for Germany.

    You're always projecting things onto Trump to convince yourself that there's more to him than there is.
    Yawn

    Go watch the video of this famous interaction at the UN. Trump is talking AT the Germans. He’s telling them “you made a stupid deal that I would not have made” - so it’s still all about Trump - but Trump is also making an astute point

    PB’s inability to be objective about the Donald is wearying
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,771
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    SOP for @Leon.
    For an intelligent guy, he can be an utter wanker at times. Streak of bully in him, which he's convinced himself is clever.
    There were a few Crabbe and Goyle's to Leon's Malfoy this afternoon.
    Some people on here get influenced by Leon in a manner that is somewhat pathetic.
    That’s a little harsh on yourself, if I may say so
    Ho ho. You're a drivel monger.

    Anyway "gotta" go now. Late.
    WTF is wrong with you
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,837

    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    He's a threat, no question. I'm hoping for a downfall a la Robert Maxwell.
    My grand theory of Musk is that he has a very porous head. He had quite a different outlook on life when he was going out with Grimes, I think he's easily swayed and wants to be loved.

    I hope he gets a nice girlfriend with fun friends and starts hanging around with them instead of the Silicon Valley reactionaries.
    I think there is more than a grain of truth in this. Billionaires are the same as anyone else, just able to live out their neuroses on a larger stage.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    This is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    And part of the problem with American democracy is that, even without Trump, that "kick them out" mechanism is looking pretty flaky. He's just a (very extreme) symptom.

    How much that's the electoral structure, how much is campaign finance, how much it's "choose your own news" media, I don't know. But the feedback loops that cause defeated political parties to course-correct don't seem to operate in the US. They're slow and lumpy enough over here.
    Interesting counterpoint here: https://nypost.com/2024/10/23/opinion/despite-the-media-caterwauling-voters-arent-buying-that-trump-is-a-threat-to-democracy/

    For me, the Trump as a dictator thing is unlikely for a number of reasons:

    - The constitution blocks him from running for a 3rd term and there are enough Blue states to block any attempt to change the constitution
    - He is 78 now and would be 82 at the end of his term, meaning a decline in health as we have seen with Biden is a real possibility
    - The Dems will likely control the House (and possibly the Senate) after the 2026 mid terms
    - Trump still has to contend with the New York and Georgia legal cases
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    Haaland is an absolute freak of nature,

    https://x.com/footballontnt/status/1849200901585600731
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,685
    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,304
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close. TikTok is nearly 3x as big (and that doesn't include any Chinese users), Telegram is 1.5x as big and far worse for every type of extremist and criminal content. What twitter does has is any oversized importance of those in the Western media and hence why the outrage their twitter has changed for the worse since Musk took over.
    Well, that's why twitter is still the most important platform. No other place sets the agenda to the same extent, except perhaps reddit.
    Reddit.

    Good call.

    Five years ago, I spend 10x the amount of time on Twitter as Reddit. Now I spend 100x as much time on Reddit as Twitter.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Jonathan said:

    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.

    You are thinking about Lozza Fox.

    I have said this before, it is the new mid life crisis for (mildly) famous people. Morgan, Vorderman, Lineker, Fox, to name a few in the UK that have become ever more obsessed with getting engagement on the tw@tter machine and in some cases so far down some rabbit holes they start repeating untruths on a regular basis.
  • MJW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    There are also cooler heads like Bill Ackman also backing Trump,

    33 Reasons to Vote for Trump - Bill Ackman
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLlJmxPS2k

    Personally I don't get it, but Musk isn't a massive outlier, there are wealthy smart people who previously where never Trump, who are now backing him in his election. If I was cynical, it is because they believe a Trump presidency is good for their financial interests, but they didn't go out on a limb like this before.
    I think it's right to be cynical and of course some very rich people did go out on a limb. The Koch brothers, the Mercers built entire political machines based around furthering right-wing policies that suited their interests. Not to mention Mr Murdoch. Peter Thiel's involvement in politics predates Trump - and in many ways he's the model Musk's emulating, and they of course have a shared business history.

    For the likes of Musk, Trumpism's mix of libertarianism for me (those with wealth), authoritarianism for thee (those without) and entirely transactional foreign policy hits a sweet spot that suits him personally, and like many of us he conflates what's in his interests with the greater good. There's a fairly long history of businessmen supporting far right political movements or politicians as long as given a free hand to do what they want.

    What arguably has changed since 2016 and 2020 is that the aforementioned billionaires who predated Trump or backed him early didn't care much about their public image and being associated with those culturally we had down as 'the baddies'. Many of them revelled in it in fact. Musk really does care what people think of him - have you ever seen someone so desperate to be liked he'd buy a social network and set fire to it so he could be its King?

    When Trump first came along he was uncouth, bizarre, and was culturally cringe. Supporting him was low status - it was what people who watch Duck Dynasty and marry their cousin did - and he was a losing cause in 2016 until midway through election night. In 2020, thanks to his often bizarre Covid pronouncements it remained low status. So you had to really not care what people thought of you and that you wouldn't be getting fancy gala invites anymore to publicly back him.

    He still is one of the tackiest human beings who ever drew breath. Since then though, thanks to some cultural overreach from progressives, being right-wing in the US at least has gained more cultural cache, as there's now an entire alternative media ecosystem that has its own stars and heroes. So the barrier to supporting Trump has dropped - who cares if Leonardo DiCaprio and George Clooney think you're scum if Joe Rogan and Dana White are partying with you?


    I think part of the difference with 2016 is Trump's opponent. In 2016, he was up against Clinton who was a serious figure and would likely have made a decent President (certainly in terms of policies). This time around we have had 4 years of Joe Biden, who has been the worst president of my lifetime and the Democrat candidate, Harris doesn't look that impressive either (and has tied herself to Biden).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632
    Stereodog said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
    Trump saw Nordstream as a bad deal for him - because it would lead to Germany buying Russian gas instead of US gas. That's all. You can't honestly think he gave a rat's arse about whether the deal would be good for Germany.

    You're always projecting things onto Trump to convince yourself that there's more to him than there is.
    Isn't that him just doing his job though? He's elected as President of the United States not the President of United Earth.
    I don't make any comment on whether it was the right or wrong judgement for him to make, but only about the reasoning behind it. Leon seems to think it was out of a selfless desire to see the best for Germany. The sweet naive fool.

    I'm pretty sure that Trump often conflates what is good for the US with what is good for him personally. So he'd expect to get a cut personally. Else, what's the point?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,731

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Dear old @SouthamObserver said that Elon Musk was more dangerous and damaging for the UK than China… and Qatar and Saudi

    Pointing out that this is stupendous, embarrassing nonsense is not “bullying”, it is a kindness. Musk Derangement Syndrome is a real thing and it renders the sane tediously insane

    We don’t want a valued PB-er like @SouthamObserver - and he IS valued - to turn into a Musked version of @Scott_xP
    It's because he's seen as a traitor for deserting their side of the argument, so the absolute invective is reserved for him.
    There’s also the possibility that Musk is right about Trump, and that Trump needs to win this election, despite his many flaws. And remember Musk knows these flaws: three years ago Musk was fiercely anti-Trump, two years ago Musk was promoting DeSantis as an acceptable anti-Woke version of Trump

    Musk appears to believe this election is so pivotal the GOP absolutely MUST win even with a terrible candidate like Trump

    And what if Musk is right?

    On the prior thread about “whether musk is a genius/weirdo/chancer” someone correctly described Musk as a “visionary”. That’s precisely right, that’s Musk’s Genius. He can envision things others can’t, he can extrapolate quicker and further

    What if Musk is envisaging something about Trump/this election and he’s correct?

    This thought troubles me. I’m fairly settled in my view that Trump would be a bad president, bad for the USA, the West, the world. I hope he loses

    But, what if Musk is right… again…
    This is terrible simple.

    Only one thing matters, and that is the democratic system and the willingness of politicians to accept the decision of voters. So long as that exists, the system is self correcting.

    In the 1960s we had a Labour government who implemented a 98% tax on unearned income. Absolute madness.

    But you know what happened? The voters realized it and kicked them out.

    Every single place that has truly gone to shit, it's because voters have lost the ability to kick out the government.

    And when Trump attempted to overturn the election in 2020, with his strategy of fake electors, he proved himself unwilling to accept the decision of the voters.

    Irrespective of his policies, whether you like them or not, this disqualifies him from consideration.
    And part of the problem with American democracy is that, even without Trump, that "kick them out" mechanism is looking pretty flaky. He's just a (very extreme) symptom.

    How much that's the electoral structure, how much is campaign finance, how much it's "choose your own news" media, I don't know. But the feedback loops that cause defeated political parties to course-correct don't seem to operate in the US. They're slow and lumpy enough over here.
    Interesting counterpoint here: https://nypost.com/2024/10/23/opinion/despite-the-media-caterwauling-voters-arent-buying-that-trump-is-a-threat-to-democracy/

    For me, the Trump as a dictator thing is unlikely for a number of reasons:

    - The constitution blocks him from running for a 3rd term and there are enough Blue states to block any attempt to change the constitution
    - He is 78 now and would be 82 at the end of his term, meaning a decline in health as we have seen with Biden is a real possibility
    - The Dems will likely control the House (and possibly the Senate) after the 2026 mid terms
    - Trump still has to contend with the New York and Georgia legal cases
    I don't think Trump is focused enough to be a true dictator - though he'd do certain things dictators do like persecuting opponents and endorsing political violence when he benefits. What worries me is that various key supporters and his base very much want him to be one and thus break American politics in a way that will not be able to be fixed, even more so than he's already done.

  • FossFoss Posts: 1,020
    ..

    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France follows Germany and reinstates border controls due to 'serious threats posed by terrorists and migratory flows'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13991651/Now-FRANCE-follows-Germany-reinstates-border-controls-threats-posed-terrorists-migratory-flows-latest-blow-EU-Schengen-scheme.html

    Is Elon Musk destablising things again?
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump the shark quite so badly as @SouthamObserver did on Musk on the last thread.

    I mean, wow.
    Musk is a clear and present danger. Sell the Tesla buy a Taycan.
    The bullying of @SouthamObserver on the last thread was disgraceful.

    Interesting that Putin clearly rates Musk very highly from that Carlson interview, unlike Trump who he clearly despises.
    You must work for the civil service with your definition of bullying. SO made some frankly ridiculous claims about Musk being more dangerous than China and those claims were robustly countered. SO is a big boy and long time poster, I doubt he is bothered by the responses.

    You can think that Musk has been a dick on twitter, but he isn't that big of an outlier in this election supporting Trump e.g Bill Ackman is another incredibly wealthy man doing so. And that doesn't make them Putinists.
    Not sure "dick" quite nails it for someone trying to subvert democracy and deliver the world's most powerful nation into the hands of a far right demagogue.
    Musk is a skilled entrepreneur, and employs good engineers* but is a moral imbecile and in control of the leading Social Media platform in the world with a massive capability for spreading misinformation.

    I wouldn't get involved with ranking moral imbeciles in order of precedence, as who cares about the relative status of a louse and a tapeworm? But @SouthamObserver is right to rank him as a major threat to democracy, and therefore Britain.

    *not sure how much engineering he has done himself.
    Twitter isn't the leading social media platform in the world. Its not even close. TikTok is nearly 3x as big (and that doesn't include any Chinese users), Telegram is 1.5x as big and far worse for every type of extremist and criminal content. What twitter does has is any oversized importance of those in the Western media and hence why the outrage their twitter has changed for the worse since Musk took over.
    Well, that's why twitter is still the most important platform. No other place sets the agenda to the same extent, except perhaps reddit.
    It does and it doesn't. Besides the bots, those opinion formers are the really active ones talking to one another in their bubbles, then occasionally they will say look at all this horrid stuff on there, it must be brain washing the masses....Reddit is weirdly where a lot of people get news / current affairs and the masses are on TikTok watching brain rot with the CCP thumb on the scale or Instanta looking at photoshopped fitness models or on Facebook on their community group complaining about the bins. The extremists are on Telegram.
    Reddit is weird. You end up on a sub which claims to have 30 or 40 million followers and, even during what should be prime US doomscrolling time, it’ll tell you there are only 5 or 10 thousand people there.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,632
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Trump the businessman is again very easy to describe. He is a New York hustler.

    Yes. You’re also right in saying Trump’s key characteristic is his narcissism. He must always be the winner. He’s a quintessential braggart

    The “Fascism” accusation is farcical because I don’t think Trump has a political ideology remotely sophisticated enough to be labelled “Fascist” - or anything else

    Trump is an egotistical deal maker and wants to win and be seen to win, and will cheat rather than lose
    His comment when debating Clinton was the most revealing, she says but you don't pay your taxes, and he instantly replies, that makes me smart.....and then has a very satisfied look on his face. I don't think because he thought that was a zinger, more look at me, I hustle the system that makes me a smarter than you and a winner.
    Yes

    Also, Trump’s rat-like cunning at getting a good deal sometimes makes him a good politician. He could see what a bad deal Nordstream was for Germany - making them reliant on Putin - even as the Germans scoffed at him

    He is also willing to say blunt truths in a businesslike way - eg the virus came from the lab. That’s occasionally refreshing

    But on the whole he’s bad news and I reckon Musk is wrong. Trump needs to lose and I still think he will (albeit with some growing doubts)
    Trump saw Nordstream as a bad deal for him - because it would lead to Germany buying Russian gas instead of US gas. That's all. You can't honestly think he gave a rat's arse about whether the deal would be good for Germany.

    You're always projecting things onto Trump to convince yourself that there's more to him than there is.
    Yawn

    Go watch the video of this famous interaction at the UN. Trump is talking AT the Germans. He’s telling them “you made a stupid deal that I would not have made” - so it’s still all about Trump - but Trump is also making an astute point

    PB’s inability to be objective about the Donald is wearying
    Physician heal thyself.

    You share Trump's obsession with autocratic strongmen and so you're desperate to rationalise this attraction into something that doesn't conflict with your recognition of the value of democracy. This is why you so often reach for blaming the left for your attraction to anti-democrats, as it's an easy way for you to square that circle.

    But of course, you are the objective one and we are all slaves to our subjective bias.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,795

    Jonathan said:

    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.

    You are thinking about Lozza Fox.

    I have said this before, it is the new mid life crisis for (mildly) famous people. Morgan, Vorderman, Lineker, Fox, to name a few in the UK that have become ever more obsessed with getting engagement on the tw@tter machine and in some cases so far down some rabbit holes they start repeating untruths on a regular basis.
    Rowling is the best example. Just a bit too malicious, imo. Trans got Linehan too.

    Right Said Fred love a WEF/vaxx conspiracy theory.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,304
    Eabhal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.

    You are thinking about Lozza Fox.

    I have said this before, it is the new mid life crisis for (mildly) famous people. Morgan, Vorderman, Lineker, Fox, to name a few in the UK that have become ever more obsessed with getting engagement on the tw@tter machine and in some cases so far down some rabbit holes they start repeating untruths on a regular basis.
    Rowling is the best example. Just a bit too malicious, imo. Trans got Linehan too.

    Right Said Fred love a WEF/vaxx conspiracy theory.
    Twitter drives people mad.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,711

    I just don't get it. I really don't.

    iirc Trump had really poor favourability ratings through most his presidency.

    Now they want him back?

    It is odd. Maybe surviving the assassination attempts is the sort of thing that impresses a lot of American voters.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,291
    edited October 23
    Eabhal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.

    You are thinking about Lozza Fox.

    I have said this before, it is the new mid life crisis for (mildly) famous people. Morgan, Vorderman, Lineker, Fox, to name a few in the UK that have become ever more obsessed with getting engagement on the tw@tter machine and in some cases so far down some rabbit holes they start repeating untruths on a regular basis.
    Rowling is the best example. Just a bit too malicious, imo. Trans got Linehan too.

    Right Said Fred love a WEF/vaxx conspiracy theory.
    Rowling certainly has got caught up in twitter world, though I don't know if its for the likes / retweets perhaps in the way some of the other play to their "team". Its a very niche obsession and seems very unhealthy, but others seem to are wanting to caught the engagement and relevant. I am not convinced that is Rowlings motivation.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,795

    Eabhal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.

    You are thinking about Lozza Fox.

    I have said this before, it is the new mid life crisis for (mildly) famous people. Morgan, Vorderman, Lineker, Fox, to name a few in the UK that have become ever more obsessed with getting engagement on the tw@tter machine and in some cases so far down some rabbit holes they start repeating untruths on a regular basis.
    Rowling is the best example. Just a bit too malicious, imo. Trans got Linehan too.

    Right Said Fred love a WEF/vaxx conspiracy theory.
    Rowling certainly has got caught up in twitter world, though I don't know if its for the likes / retweets perhaps in the way some of the other play to their "team". Its a very niche obsession.
    True. And those obsessions are not necessarily a bad thing - look at Feargal Sharkey go.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,837
    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Jonathan said:

    Musk seems to be on a similar journey to other celebrities like that bloke from Sunday night drama Lewis (I forget his name).

    He started shouting opinions on Twitter, got involved in political arguments, fell in with a certain clique and then seemed to want to grab attention by winding other people up with ever more extreme views. The end game when the law of diminishing returns kicks in, was conspiracies.

    He’s not the only one.There’s something about social media that sends some famous people down a destructive path, from which it’s hard to escape.

    The antidote might be to remember is that however successful you are in your professional field , your political opinions are your own. You have one vote and are no more important than anyone else.

    You are thinking about Lozza Fox.

    I have said this before, it is the new mid life crisis for (mildly) famous people. Morgan, Vorderman, Lineker, Fox, to name a few in the UK that have become ever more obsessed with getting engagement on the tw@tter machine and in some cases so far down some rabbit holes they start repeating untruths on a regular basis.
    Rowling is the best example. Just a bit too malicious, imo. Trans got Linehan too.

    Right Said Fred love a WEF/vaxx conspiracy theory.
    Twitter drives people mad.
    Owning Twitter especially so.

    It's like the ring of power.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,711
    rcs1000's tip on Trump winning the popular vote and losing the election is looking more and more enticing.
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