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Bobby J’s choice of middle name isn’t very popular

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Comments

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,987
    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The Times is BREAKING the news that the USA "privately" warned Starmer AGAINST doing this

    If that is the case, it gets worse for Skyr Toolmakersson

    To be fair there might be something to be said for the government finally refusing to do what USA tells them to do...
    Except, in this case the Labour PM has ignored the USA and instead decided to make the worst geopolitical deal in British history, delivering British territory into foreign hands, and we have to pay for it, and all for a group of people who - it turns out- will not benefit and were excluded from the talks

    Have I missed anything?

    Labour have mightily fucked up, here
    They've freed up some Foreign Office brainpower to f*ck something else up. So there's that on the upside.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited October 3
    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,987

    Apparently Israel targeted Iranian and Syrian ammo near the main Russian base in Syria and the Russians tried shooting down the Israeli missiles. Given their flagging support in the west could I suggest it would be quite magnificent for Israel to destroy the Russian base in Syria. I'd pay good money to watch the video.

    If they take out all the Russian munitions around Ukraine for good measure - it'd keep geopolitics peeps busy for years.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    I'd pay good money to watch the video.

    How delightful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Eabhal said:

    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.

    I rather think it is, actually

    This is causing such a storm, and it is headline news, and his hands are also on this appalling deal, which benefits mainly China, not the Chagossians, and which costs you and me money coz we have to pay Mauritius to take the territory

    It's fucking stupefying
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The Times is BREAKING the news that the USA "privately" warned Starmer AGAINST doing this

    If that is the case, it gets worse for Skyr Toolmakersson

    To be fair there might be something to be said for the government finally refusing to do what USA tells them to do...
    Given the extent to which we depend on them for security in the West, I'm struggling to think of a dumber thing to do than to give away the land underneath a US military base to a Chinese proxy without the approval of the US...
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mautitius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    When then did the last government want to do it too? I agree that it's very odd; the only explanation I can think of is that the ICJ judgment was going to cause HMG some serious ongoing issues.

    Maybe this is just one part of some other deal?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The Times is BREAKING the news that the USA "privately" warned Starmer AGAINST doing this

    If that is the case, it gets worse for Skyr Toolmakersson

    To be fair there might be something to be said for the government finally refusing to do what USA tells them to do...
    Except, in this case the Labour PM has ignored the USA and instead decided to make the worst geopolitical deal in British history, delivering British territory into foreign hands, and we have to pay for it, and all for a group of people who - it turns out- will not benefit and were excluded from the talks

    Have I missed anything?

    Labour have mightily fucked up, here
    Well you've missed the fact that all of the benefits of this are not even going to land on Mauritius but on the f****** Chinese.

    If I was India I would be tempted to invade to stop this stupidity and the inevitable creation of a Chinese base in the Indian ocean.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    Can someone tell me why I should give a fig about the Chagos Islands ? Or is all the pearl clutching by some just another excuse to have a moan about Starmer.

    There is that - there's definitely that - but also with many on the right of politics (both traditional and populist variety) there is a strong instinctive fondness for the notion of us still having far-flung colonial possessions. Hence much effort is expended to come up with justifications for it. More than you'd have thought it merited.
    Doesn't this fall under the category of 'selling the family silver' - which the left are normally fairly critical of? Or is it ok because we're not actually selling it, we're just giving it away to someone who'll give it to the Chinese?

    It's not that I particularly like the Chagos Islands. I'd just rather see a good deal for 1) Britain, and 2) the Chagos Islanders than a bad one. This seems to fit neither criterion.
    That's Macmillan on privatisation iirc?

    As for this being a 'bad' deal - I have no great opinion on that. I was just commenting on why a certain type of brain chemistry will have a strong (and adverse) opinion on it. It won't be because they've run the rule over the detail. It'll be their attachment to the idea of residual Empire Britannica.

    People are forever coming out with their little diagnoses of the leftist mindset. Just returning the favour. I try not to make a habit of it - analysing why people say things rather than what they say - because I know it irritates and it's also a bit of a conversational dead end. But the aroma is particularly strong on this one.
    Not unreasonable, but I'd say the mirror image is also true - there's a certain type of British left wing brain chemistry that is triggered by Britain having overseas territories, which Really Ought To Be Given To Someone Else. Because Empire, or something. David Lammy is certainly one of these, it looks like SKS is too. It's certainly not clear what the advantage to Britain is of this deal, nor whether this was a consideration. I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest. I don't think that's a right-wing view. I think that would be the view of most people in most countries.
    I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest.

    Out of interest, why?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree yours is not a right wing view but a very common one.

    But what makes you care more about, say, a Cornish fishermen than a Breton fisherman? What makes you want the British government to prioritise British interests per se rather than e.g. seek to reduce global inequality?

    Genuine question - I find you often talk sense and am interested in how you (or others) justify nationalism.
    Politicians represent their voters. They don’t represent humanity in general.

    Think of it as being like a trustee. You’re there to advance the interests of the beneficiaries. You can’t hand out the trust’s assets to people who are not beneficiaries.
    Good analogy, thanks.

    But, to extend it, how do you feel about donkey sanctuaries?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-abuse-donkey-charity-funding-b2607499.html

    ETA: Oops, posted too quickly! My point is that, if I were a trustee of a donkey sanctuary, I'd be arguing strongly that we should try to encourage our donors to look elsewhere.

    The UK is like a donkey sanctuary where, if we were willing to forego the gold plated hooves, we could ensure everyone who needs malaria drugs gets them.
    That’s straightforward. You can’t fulfil your ethical and legal obligations to The Donkey Sanctuary, so you ought not accept the role of Trustee.

    Since we were discussing fantasy series yesterday, I’ll give the example of Tyrion, in Game of Thrones. He gives consistently dreadful military advice to Daenerys, costing thousands of her soldiers’ lives, because he’s desperate to protect his siblings, who are her enemies. But, he had no business taking the role of chief military adviser, to her, if he was so conflicted.

    If you face a conflict of interest, you either decline to take the role that produces that conflict or you resign. Failing to do so makes you a traitor to the person or body that you are meant to be serving.
    I think that only works if you are convinced that the particular model (trusteeship in this case) is sacrosanct.

    I can absolutely understand a belief that might underlie your point of view along the lines of: moving away from the current model of nationalism (or, in the analogy, trustees whose only job is to advocate for their charity) risks unintended negative consequences and so whilst our current model isn't perfect we should defend it to the death.

    Is that your view?
    My view is that you can’t easily promote the interests of multiple competing parties.

    So, you must promote the interests of those parties who have appointed/elected you to your position.

    And, if you have an ethical objection to that, then you find another role, such as working for an NGO
    Okay thanks. I guess I'm trying to ask whether you think that are any limits either to the idea of promoting only the interests of those you represent, or limits to the applicability of the analogy to nationalism.

    To my mind it doesn't need to be the absolute you're suggesting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mautitius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    When then did the last government want to do it too? I agree that it's very odd; the only explanation I can think of is that the ICJ judgment was going to cause HMG some serious ongoing issues.

    Maybe this is just one part of some other deal?
    No, they are just very stupid, and they despise "the British national interest" as a relic of Empire, or whatever

    They are dumb and treacherous. That's it
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,987
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/caribbean-leaders-hope-new-uk-government-is-open-talks-slavery-reparations-2024-10-03/

    Caribbean leaders hope that Britain under its new Labour government might shift its long-standing position on slavery reparations and agree to discuss how to address past wrongs and their current day legacy.

    Consecutive British governments have rejected calls for reparations but the chairman of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) reparations commission, Hilary Beckles, said this stance might change under the new Labour administration.

    Britain's new foreign minister David Lammy is of Caribbean descent and often refers to himself as a descendant of enslaved people. In an interview, opens new tab with The Guardian newspaper before the election, Lammy said his family history would inform his work.

    "(Lammy) has been a supporter of the (reparations) discourse while he was in opposition," Beckles said. "The question is whether he would be given a free hand in his government... to take the matter to a higher level."

    A Farage, Reform and Jenrick wet dream if Starmer and Lammy were stupid enough to do that. You can imagine the posters and ads 'Labour take money from our NHS and your granny's heating in winter to fund woke reparations for sunny Jamaica and Barbados for something which happened before even your great granddad was born!'

    What next, do we ask for reparations from Denmark for the Viking raids?
    I think we should demand reparations from the Italians, Austrians, Germans, Russians and Turks for the Roman Empire.

    As all five states have claimed descent from the Roman Empire at one time or another, at least one of them should stump up.
    I still think the Beaker People owe us a shilling or two. Or a beaker at least. A good one, mind.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    Cleverley price walking out - kicking off the process for today's sell out doesn't look great
  • ManOfGwentManOfGwent Posts: 108
    edited October 3
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mautitius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    When then did the last government want to do it too? I agree that it's very odd; the only explanation I can think of is that the ICJ judgment was going to cause HMG some serious ongoing issues.

    Maybe this is just one part of some other deal?
    The last government under Cameron stopped the talks as the ICJ judgment made no sense in terms of decolonisation. For it to make sense the deal had to be done with the displaced islanders, not a country that only has a tangential link to the territory.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mautitius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    When then did the last government want to do it too? I agree that it's very odd; the only explanation I can think of is that the ICJ judgment was going to cause HMG some serious ongoing issues.

    Maybe this is just one part of some other deal?
    No, they are just very stupid, and they despise "the British national interest" as a relic of Empire, or whatever

    They are dumb and treacherous. That's it
    Sunak too? Say what you like about him but I don't think it's in his, or Johnson's or May's or even Truss' character to give up a UK interest that easily.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mautitius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    When then did the last government want to do it too? I agree that it's very odd; the only explanation I can think of is that the ICJ judgment was going to cause HMG some serious ongoing issues.

    Maybe this is just one part of some other deal?
    The last government under Cameron stopped the talks as the ICJ judgment made no sense in terms of decolonisation. For it to make sense the deal had to be done with the displaced islanders, not a country that only has a tangential link to the territory.
    Maybe Cameron is only the person who actually gets it on these kind of issues.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.

    I rather think it is, actually

    This is causing such a storm, and it is headline news, and his hands are also on this appalling deal, which benefits mainly China, not the Chagossians, and which costs you and me money coz we have to pay Mauritius to take the territory

    It's fucking stupefying
    Perhaps in Starmer, we’ve got our equivalent of Gerhard Schroder.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Cleverly is fucked by this
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,733
    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    Can someone tell me why I should give a fig about the Chagos Islands ? Or is all the pearl clutching by some just another excuse to have a moan about Starmer.

    There is that - there's definitely that - but also with many on the right of politics (both traditional and populist variety) there is a strong instinctive fondness for the notion of us still having far-flung colonial possessions. Hence much effort is expended to come up with justifications for it. More than you'd have thought it merited.
    Doesn't this fall under the category of 'selling the family silver' - which the left are normally fairly critical of? Or is it ok because we're not actually selling it, we're just giving it away to someone who'll give it to the Chinese?

    It's not that I particularly like the Chagos Islands. I'd just rather see a good deal for 1) Britain, and 2) the Chagos Islanders than a bad one. This seems to fit neither criterion.
    That's Macmillan on privatisation iirc?

    As for this being a 'bad' deal - I have no great opinion on that. I was just commenting on why a certain type of brain chemistry will have a strong (and adverse) opinion on it. It won't be because they've run the rule over the detail. It'll be their attachment to the idea of residual Empire Britannica.

    People are forever coming out with their little diagnoses of the leftist mindset. Just returning the favour. I try not to make a habit of it - analysing why people say things rather than what they say - because I know it irritates and it's also a bit of a conversational dead end. But the aroma is particularly strong on this one.
    Not unreasonable, but I'd say the mirror image is also true - there's a certain type of British left wing brain chemistry that is triggered by Britain having overseas territories, which Really Ought To Be Given To Someone Else. Because Empire, or something. David Lammy is certainly one of these, it looks like SKS is too. It's certainly not clear what the advantage to Britain is of this deal, nor whether this was a consideration. I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest. I don't think that's a right-wing view. I think that would be the view of most people in most countries.
    I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest.

    Out of interest, why?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree yours is not a right wing view but a very common one.

    But what makes you care more about, say, a Cornish fishermen than a Breton fisherman? What makes you want the British government to prioritise British interests per se rather than e.g. seek to reduce global inequality?

    Genuine question - I find you often talk sense and am interested in how you (or others) justify nationalism.
    Politicians represent their voters. They don’t represent humanity in general.

    Think of it as being like a trustee. You’re there to advance the interests of the beneficiaries. You can’t hand out the trust’s assets to people who are not beneficiaries.
    Good analogy, thanks.

    But, to extend it, how do you feel about donkey sanctuaries?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-abuse-donkey-charity-funding-b2607499.html

    ETA: Oops, posted too quickly! My point is that, if I were a trustee of a donkey sanctuary, I'd be arguing strongly that we should try to encourage our donors to look elsewhere.

    The UK is like a donkey sanctuary where, if we were willing to forego the gold plated hooves, we could ensure everyone who needs malaria drugs gets them.
    That’s straightforward. You can’t fulfil your ethical and legal obligations to The Donkey Sanctuary, so you ought not accept the role of Trustee.

    Since we were discussing fantasy series yesterday, I’ll give the example of Tyrion, in Game of Thrones. He gives consistently dreadful military advice to Daenerys, costing thousands of her soldiers’ lives, because he’s desperate to protect his siblings, who are her enemies. But, he had no business taking the role of chief military adviser, to her, if he was so conflicted.

    If you face a conflict of interest, you either decline to take the role that produces that conflict or you resign. Failing to do so makes you a traitor to the person or body that you are meant to be serving.
    Isn't one point here, to extend the analogy, that while the primary aim maybe to ensure the wellbeing of the main beneficiaries, if there's a surfeit of cash to meet plausible needs, it may make sense to direct some of that funding to partner charities with similar interests? As long as it's agreed. It may also be in your long-term interest, as your PR spiel to donors will be much stronger than the alternative option of the gold-plated hooves.

    And that's how it can work with diplomacy and aid. The difficulty is in judging when there's a mutual benefit or longer term interest that may override immediate self-interest. Or when you're just chucking money or influence away.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Was he a Cambridge lawyer, perchance ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.

    I rather think it is, actually

    This is causing such a storm, and it is headline news, and his hands are also on this appalling deal, which benefits mainly China, not the Chagossians, and which costs you and me money coz we have to pay Mauritius to take the territory

    It's fucking stupefying
    Perhaps in Starmer, we’ve got our equivalent of Gerhard Schroder.
    Or Erik Tan Hag, he muttered bitterly.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Maybe Starmer announced this today to sink Cleverly and thereby help see one of the nutjobs win the Tory leadership contest !
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Now that's an allegation. I had some thoughts of my own but in this cynical age I think it is sometimes best to withhold them.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.

    I rather think it is, actually

    This is causing such a storm, and it is headline news, and his hands are also on this appalling deal, which benefits mainly China, not the Chagossians, and which costs you and me money coz we have to pay Mauritius to take the territory

    It's fucking stupefying
    James Cleverly's total supine attitude to the threat of China has been well-documented and discussed here, by me amongst others, repeatedly.

    Blithely ignoring all that, 'PB-shrewdies' have relentlessly ramped Cleverly as 'the only half-sensible choice' - the sole qualification for this honour seemingly being that he's wetter than an otter's pocket(tm) - a disposition that apparently instantly qualifies you as sensible, efficient, showing excellent judgement and being born to rule - even if you're a complete f****g idiot like this Prime Minister and the last.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    nico679 said:

    Maybe Starmer announced this today to sink Cleverly and thereby help see one of the nutjobs win the Tory leadership contest !

    A cunning plan that Baldrick could have produced.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    Today the UK has reached an agreement with Mauritius, securing the vital military base on Diego Garcia.

    Our deal, supported by our US partners, will protect international security, close a potential illegal migration route, and avert threats to peace and prosperity in the Indian Ocean.

    https://x.com/DavidLammy/status/1841792390719271406

    None of those claims would seem to be true as near as I can tell.
    https://x.com/MarkGaleotti/status/1841861195260633437

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    MJW said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    Can someone tell me why I should give a fig about the Chagos Islands ? Or is all the pearl clutching by some just another excuse to have a moan about Starmer.

    There is that - there's definitely that - but also with many on the right of politics (both traditional and populist variety) there is a strong instinctive fondness for the notion of us still having far-flung colonial possessions. Hence much effort is expended to come up with justifications for it. More than you'd have thought it merited.
    Doesn't this fall under the category of 'selling the family silver' - which the left are normally fairly critical of? Or is it ok because we're not actually selling it, we're just giving it away to someone who'll give it to the Chinese?

    It's not that I particularly like the Chagos Islands. I'd just rather see a good deal for 1) Britain, and 2) the Chagos Islanders than a bad one. This seems to fit neither criterion.
    That's Macmillan on privatisation iirc?

    As for this being a 'bad' deal - I have no great opinion on that. I was just commenting on why a certain type of brain chemistry will have a strong (and adverse) opinion on it. It won't be because they've run the rule over the detail. It'll be their attachment to the idea of residual Empire Britannica.

    People are forever coming out with their little diagnoses of the leftist mindset. Just returning the favour. I try not to make a habit of it - analysing why people say things rather than what they say - because I know it irritates and it's also a bit of a conversational dead end. But the aroma is particularly strong on this one.
    Not unreasonable, but I'd say the mirror image is also true - there's a certain type of British left wing brain chemistry that is triggered by Britain having overseas territories, which Really Ought To Be Given To Someone Else. Because Empire, or something. David Lammy is certainly one of these, it looks like SKS is too. It's certainly not clear what the advantage to Britain is of this deal, nor whether this was a consideration. I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest. I don't think that's a right-wing view. I think that would be the view of most people in most countries.
    I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest.

    Out of interest, why?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree yours is not a right wing view but a very common one.

    But what makes you care more about, say, a Cornish fishermen than a Breton fisherman? What makes you want the British government to prioritise British interests per se rather than e.g. seek to reduce global inequality?

    Genuine question - I find you often talk sense and am interested in how you (or others) justify nationalism.
    Politicians represent their voters. They don’t represent humanity in general.

    Think of it as being like a trustee. You’re there to advance the interests of the beneficiaries. You can’t hand out the trust’s assets to people who are not beneficiaries.
    Good analogy, thanks.

    But, to extend it, how do you feel about donkey sanctuaries?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-abuse-donkey-charity-funding-b2607499.html

    ETA: Oops, posted too quickly! My point is that, if I were a trustee of a donkey sanctuary, I'd be arguing strongly that we should try to encourage our donors to look elsewhere.

    The UK is like a donkey sanctuary where, if we were willing to forego the gold plated hooves, we could ensure everyone who needs malaria drugs gets them.
    That’s straightforward. You can’t fulfil your ethical and legal obligations to The Donkey Sanctuary, so you ought not accept the role of Trustee.

    Since we were discussing fantasy series yesterday, I’ll give the example of Tyrion, in Game of Thrones. He gives consistently dreadful military advice to Daenerys, costing thousands of her soldiers’ lives, because he’s desperate to protect his siblings, who are her enemies. But, he had no business taking the role of chief military adviser, to her, if he was so conflicted.

    If you face a conflict of interest, you either decline to take the role that produces that conflict or you resign. Failing to do so makes you a traitor to the person or body that you are meant to be serving.
    Isn't one point here, to extend the analogy, that while the primary aim maybe to ensure the wellbeing of the main beneficiaries, if there's a surfeit of cash to meet plausible needs, it may make sense to direct some of that funding to partner charities with similar interests? As long as it's agreed. It may also be in your long-term interest, as your PR spiel to donors will be much stronger than the alternative option of the gold-plated hooves.

    And that's how it can work with diplomacy and aid. The difficulty is in judging when there's a mutual benefit or longer term interest that may override immediate self-interest. Or when you're just chucking money or influence away.
    Enlightened self-interest is a very different thing. That may be entirely sensible.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The Times is BREAKING the news that the USA "privately" warned Starmer AGAINST doing this

    If that is the case, it gets worse for Skyr Toolmakersson

    To be fair there might be something to be said for the government finally refusing to do what USA tells them to do...
    Except, in this case the Labour PM has ignored the USA and instead decided to make the worst geopolitical deal in British history, delivering British territory into foreign hands, and we have to pay for it, and all for a group of people who - it turns out- will not benefit and were excluded from the talks

    Have I missed anything?

    Labour have mightily fucked up, here
    When Starmer went to see Biden, it was heavily trailed that he was seeking permission to let Ukraine use long-range missiles, but Biden refused. It would be bizarre if this were a way to spite him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,144
    edited October 3
    US port strike update: Further to my post of a couple of days’ back, CNN is now running a piece reassuring people there isn’t going to be a shortage of toilet paper. This is going to end well….
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.

    I rather think it is, actually

    This is causing such a storm, and it is headline news, and his hands are also on this appalling deal, which benefits mainly China, not the Chagossians, and which costs you and me money coz we have to pay Mauritius to take the territory

    It's fucking stupefying
    Perhaps in Starmer, we’ve got our equivalent of Gerhard Schroder.
    Now steady on. My own feeling was that ultimately the man wants to be able to walk around north London with his head held high.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    maaarsh said:

    BREAKING NEWS: Sir Sheer Wanker agrees to give the Spanish Gibraltar in exchange for their recipe for paella, a prime place at the Tomatina next year, and €5million per annum for the next 73 years.

    Typo, we're paying the 5 mil
    Well, it's not, because it's we agree to give this, this, and this.

    Admittedly the sentence is long, but you can only blame SSW for that.
    I think that is in reference to the fact that for some reason the UK is paying Mauritius to take the islands.
    It does seem to be a rather bad deal. Mauritius has played a blinder presenting something pretty transactional as something more moral.

    Can we get their negotiating team to help us with future deals with others?
    And done by clever lefty lawyers in London. The UK evinces quite exceptional levels of self harm
    While you're indulging in your usual hyperbole (and possibly letting of some missed flight steam ?), we do seem to have made a fairly shit job of the transaction.
    Well, yes

    Apparently we have agreed to pay Mauritius for the entire 99 year lease - we will be paying for our own humiliation for a century

    I think this could damage Labour badly. Not because many people care about Diego Garcia (tho actually I do for reasons cited) but because it’s so obviously a terrible deal - and anyone can see that. Adds to the notion of Labour as bungling fools with a hint of treachery
    Inside their limited minds, they'll view that as social justice and reparations.
    As Hollywood is currently finding out the audience for that kind of mindset is actually tiny, just because they turn out to protest for BLM or Palestine it doesn't mean you can build a big voter coalition on policies that appeal only to them.

    I expect as this gets digested it will be seen as an extremely unpopular move and it also opens the door to Argentina asking for the Falklands which Labour will end up opening talks on now when the UN make some bullshit ruling or other.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835
    edited October 3
    What's Lord Alli's position on the Chagos Islands? I think we should be told.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    edited October 3
    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Now that's an allegation. I had some thoughts of my own but in this cynical age I think it is sometimes best to withhold them.
    Well who the hell else talked this plonker into this? It appears everyone else he should have been listening to was saying no.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Now that's an allegation. I had some thoughts of my own but in this cynical age I think it is sometimes best to withhold them.
    Free holidays in Mauritius for life for the Starmers?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    Interesting to see Nigel was right on the US view after an afternoon of the clever people pointing to the boiler plate PR statements released on Biden's behalf
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The Times is BREAKING the news that the USA "privately" warned Starmer AGAINST doing this

    If that is the case, it gets worse for Skyr Toolmakersson

    To be fair there might be something to be said for the government finally refusing to do what USA tells them to do...
    Except, in this case the Labour PM has ignored the USA and instead decided to make the worst geopolitical deal in British history, delivering British territory into foreign hands, and we have to pay for it, and all for a group of people who - it turns out- will not benefit and were excluded from the talks

    Have I missed anything?

    Labour have mightily fucked up, here
    When Starmer went to see Biden, it was heavily trailed that he was seeking permission to let Ukraine use long-range missiles, but Biden refused. It would be bizarre if this were a way to spite him.
    They’ve still got their base there . Maybe Starmer can jettison the sponging Falklanders next and put the money towards new attire for Labour MPs . We could have uniforms for the parties like airlines have !
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Now that's an allegation. I had some thoughts of my own but in this cynical age I think it is sometimes best to withhold them.
    Free holidays in Mauritius for life for the Starmers?
    A job on the Chinese government’s payroll?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    That is not what that sentence says.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Leon said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The Times is BREAKING the news that the USA "privately" warned Starmer AGAINST doing this

    If that is the case, it gets worse for Skyr Toolmakersson

    To be fair there might be something to be said for the government finally refusing to do what USA tells them to do...
    Except, in this case the Labour PM has ignored the USA and instead decided to make the worst geopolitical deal in British history, delivering British territory into foreign hands, and we have to pay for it, and all for a group of people who - it turns out- will not benefit and were excluded from the talks

    Have I missed anything?

    Labour have mightily fucked up, here
    When Starmer went to see Biden, it was heavily trailed that he was seeking permission to let Ukraine use long-range missiles, but Biden refused. It would be bizarre if this were a way to spite him.
    Man's been watching too much Love Actually
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Now that's an allegation. I had some thoughts of my own but in this cynical age I think it is sometimes best to withhold them.
    Free holidays in Mauritius for life for the Starmers?
    A job on the Chinese government’s payroll?
    Man's got to think of the future...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Marcus Rashford best Man U player in the first half. Scores a goal, creates a second. Quick, get him off!

    The man is a lunatic.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    That is not what that sentence says.
    It says that negotiations were agreed to at the UN General Assembly meeting, otherwise why else would it have been mentioned in the context of the negotiations starting?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Times:


    "One official said of the US position "They were saying that we would rather you didn't do this"

    Also Whitehall itself is perplexed:

    "British officials are also said to have "actively warned against the deal", citing strategic need.... "it's baffling that this has happened given that we're effectively in a cold war with China", a Whitehall source said"

    So, the USA didn't want this
    The MoD didn't want this
    Whitehall didn't want this
    The Chagossians didn't want this

    Nonetheless Starmer went ahead and handed over sovereign British territory to China, sorry, Mauritius and he asked if we could pay for the privilege, and so it is, we are paying

    Stone cold treachery?

    His pal who was acting for the Mauritians wanted it. Is that not enough?
    Now that's an allegation. I had some thoughts of my own but in this cynical age I think it is sometimes best to withhold them.
    Free holidays in Mauritius for life for the Starmers?
    A job on the Chinese government’s payroll?
    Now come on. One minute you're comparing him to Gerhard Schroder, the next it's Danny Alexander.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Lol. Unbelievable

    T

    R


    [MODERATED]
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    carnforth said:

    What's Lord Alli's position on the Chagos Islands? I think we should be told.

    The House of Lords are anxious to learn about quite a number of his interests but he is not telling. Apparently.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Tina Peters, former Colorado county clerk, was sentenced to nine years behind bars for leading a voting system data breach scheme as part of a pro-Trump plot to steal the 2020 election

    LAW & ORDER!

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1841925889975844926
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    That is not what that sentence says.
    It says that negotiations were agreed to at the UN General Assembly meeting, otherwise why else would it have been mentioned in the context of the negotiations starting?
    But as you have now realised, it doesn't say that, it does just mention the two things together. It is actually quite clear that the decision taken to open negotiations is taking place after Truss has left office.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,883
    edited October 3
    Taz said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    Can someone tell me why I should give a fig about the Chagos Islands ? Or is all the pearl clutching by some just another excuse to have a moan about Starmer.

    There is that - there's definitely that - but also with many on the right of politics (both traditional and populist variety) there is a strong instinctive fondness for the notion of us still having far-flung colonial possessions. Hence much effort is expended to come up with justifications for it. More than you'd have thought it merited.
    Doesn't this fall under the category of 'selling the family silver' - which the left are normally fairly critical of? Or is it ok because we're not actually selling it, we're just giving it away to someone who'll give it to the Chinese?

    It's not that I particularly like the Chagos Islands. I'd just rather see a good deal for 1) Britain, and 2) the Chagos Islanders than a bad one. This seems to fit neither criterion.
    That's Macmillan on privatisation iirc?

    As for this being a 'bad' deal - I have no great opinion on that. I was just commenting on why a certain type of brain chemistry will have a strong (and adverse) opinion on it. It won't be because they've run the rule over the detail. It'll be their attachment to the idea of residual Empire Britannica.

    People are forever coming out with their little diagnoses of the leftist mindset. Just returning the favour. I try not to make a habit of it - analysing why people say things rather than what they say - because I know it irritates and it's also a bit of a conversational dead end. But the aroma is particularly strong on this one.
    Not unreasonable, but I'd say the mirror image is also true - there's a certain type of British left wing brain chemistry that is triggered by Britain having overseas territories, which Really Ought To Be Given To Someone Else. Because Empire, or something. David Lammy is certainly one of these, it looks like SKS is too. It's certainly not clear what the advantage to Britain is of this deal, nor whether this was a consideration. I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest. I don't think that's a right-wing view. I think that would be the view of most people in most countries.
    I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest.

    Out of interest, why?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree yours is not a right wing view but a very common one.

    But what makes you care more about, say, a Cornish fishermen than a Breton fisherman? What makes you want the British government to prioritise British interests per se rather than e.g. seek to reduce global inequality?

    Genuine question - I find you often talk sense and am interested in how you (or others) justify nationalism.
    Politicians represent their voters. They don’t represent humanity in general.

    Think of it as being like a trustee. You’re there to advance the interests of the beneficiaries. You can’t hand out the trust’s assets to people who are not beneficiaries.
    Good analogy, thanks.

    But, to extend it, how do you feel about donkey sanctuaries?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-abuse-donkey-charity-funding-b2607499.html
    Eeyore, eeyore, eeyore to know better.
    Do donkeys make good mince?

    That place gets £50m+ per annum. It's a tax on British sentimentality around animals.

    Like the Dogs from Kabul nonsense.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    That is not what that sentence says.
    It says that negotiations were agreed to at the UN General Assembly meeting, otherwise why else would it have been mentioned in the context of the negotiations starting?
    But as you have now realised, it doesn't say that, it does just mention the two things together. It is actually quite clear that the decision taken to open negotiations is taking place after Truss has left office.
    It causally links them together with the word "following", otherwise they would have been irrelevant to the formal opening of negotiations.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,883
    Cookie said:

    viewcode said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    To add to the national humiliation I have just missed my fucking flight

    Feel sorry for the guy at the other end who will be aimlessly hanging around an emptying airport forlornly holding a droopy piece of card with "Sean Twat" written on it.
    On the other hand a good night for airport bartenders mixing pink Gins for our very own Colonel Blimp, albeit one who despises his own country.
    Not sure I despise Britain. Too strong

    Underneath my normal hyperbole my attitude to Britain is uncannily similar - and increasingly so - to my attitude to my poor demented Mum

    I mean, I love her. She’s my mum. Britain is my motherland. But I don’t exactly seek out her company, it’s all a bit depressing and I don’t call
    that often TBF

    Also if someone actually nuked my mum I’d probably say “ah well that’s sad, at least it was swift and she had a good run. Lunch?”
    You're good at coining words - there should be a word for this. Putting aside strong emotion, and just getting on with normality. (I've no suggestions)
    Try this

    Keep Calm And Carry On

    Grelief. A mixture of grief and relief.
    Well done. Feels poignant, that.
    Traditionally it would be "stiff upper lip". Perhaps obdurate or dogged is close, but misses the ignoring of strong emotion.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited October 3
    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Minor alert: First instagram post from a friend about the destruction of the MPA.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    edited October 3
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    Can someone tell me why I should give a fig about the Chagos Islands ? Or is all the pearl clutching by some just another excuse to have a moan about Starmer.

    There is that - there's definitely that - but also with many on the right of politics (both traditional and populist variety) there is a strong instinctive fondness for the notion of us still having far-flung colonial possessions. Hence much effort is expended to come up with justifications for it. More than you'd have thought it merited.
    Doesn't this fall under the category of 'selling the family silver' - which the left are normally fairly critical of? Or is it ok because we're not actually selling it, we're just giving it away to someone who'll give it to the Chinese?

    It's not that I particularly like the Chagos Islands. I'd just rather see a good deal for 1) Britain, and 2) the Chagos Islanders than a bad one. This seems to fit neither criterion.
    That's Macmillan on privatisation iirc?

    As for this being a 'bad' deal - I have no great opinion on that. I was just commenting on why a certain type of brain chemistry will have a strong (and adverse) opinion on it. It won't be because they've run the rule over the detail. It'll be their attachment to the idea of residual Empire Britannica.

    People are forever coming out with their little diagnoses of the leftist mindset. Just returning the favour. I try not to make a habit of it - analysing why people say things rather than what they say - because I know it irritates and it's also a bit of a conversational dead end. But the aroma is particularly strong on this one.
    Not unreasonable, but I'd say the mirror image is also true - there's a certain type of British left wing brain chemistry that is triggered by Britain having overseas territories, which Really Ought To Be Given To Someone Else. Because Empire, or something. David Lammy is certainly one of these, it looks like SKS is too. It's certainly not clear what the advantage to Britain is of this deal, nor whether this was a consideration. I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest. I don't think that's a right-wing view. I think that would be the view of most people in most countries.
    I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest.

    Out of interest, why?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree yours is not a right wing view but a very common one.

    But what makes you care more about, say, a Cornish fishermen than a Breton fisherman? What makes you want the British government to prioritise British interests per se rather than e.g. seek to reduce global inequality?

    Genuine question - I find you often talk sense and am interested in how you (or others) justify nationalism.
    Politicians represent their voters. They don’t represent humanity in general.

    Think of it as being like a trustee. You’re there to advance the interests of the beneficiaries. You can’t hand out the trust’s assets to people who are not beneficiaries.
    Good analogy, thanks.

    But, to extend it, how do you feel about donkey sanctuaries?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-abuse-donkey-charity-funding-b2607499.html
    Eeyore, eeyore, eeyore to know better.
    Do donkeys make good mince?

    That place gets £50m+ per annum. It's a tax on British sentimentality around animals.
    I was once at a charities’ function where the Legacy Officer for a medical charity said the donkeys should be made into salami.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Eabhal said:

    Well, I think that's Cleverly's candidacy sunk.

    Tugandoggle doesn't have the MPs, so looks like it's going to Bobby J Vs Kemi with the membership?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Leon said:

    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn

    The most troubling thing is that they are just getting started.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    viewcode said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    To add to the national humiliation I have just missed my fucking flight

    Feel sorry for the guy at the other end who will be aimlessly hanging around an emptying airport forlornly holding a droopy piece of card with "Sean Twat" written on it.
    On the other hand a good night for airport bartenders mixing pink Gins for our very own Colonel Blimp, albeit one who despises his own country.
    Not sure I despise Britain. Too strong

    Underneath my normal hyperbole my attitude to Britain is uncannily similar - and increasingly so - to my attitude to my poor demented Mum

    I mean, I love her. She’s my mum. Britain is my motherland. But I don’t exactly seek out her company, it’s all a bit depressing and I don’t call
    that often TBF

    Also if someone actually nuked my mum I’d probably say “ah well that’s sad, at least it was swift and she had a good run. Lunch?”
    You're good at coining words - there should be a word for this. Putting aside strong emotion, and just getting on with normality. (I've no suggestions)
    Try this

    Keep Calm And Carry On

    Grelief. A mixture of grief and relief.
    Demoralysis

    Paralysed through being demoralised.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Eabhal said:

    Minor alert: First instagram post from a friend about the destruction of the MPA.

    I wonder what Charles will think of it?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    Leon said:

    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn

    They’ve exceeded expectations, for sure.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    Sean_F said:

    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    maxh said:

    Sean_F said:

    maxh said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    Can someone tell me why I should give a fig about the Chagos Islands ? Or is all the pearl clutching by some just another excuse to have a moan about Starmer.

    There is that - there's definitely that - but also with many on the right of politics (both traditional and populist variety) there is a strong instinctive fondness for the notion of us still having far-flung colonial possessions. Hence much effort is expended to come up with justifications for it. More than you'd have thought it merited.
    Doesn't this fall under the category of 'selling the family silver' - which the left are normally fairly critical of? Or is it ok because we're not actually selling it, we're just giving it away to someone who'll give it to the Chinese?

    It's not that I particularly like the Chagos Islands. I'd just rather see a good deal for 1) Britain, and 2) the Chagos Islanders than a bad one. This seems to fit neither criterion.
    That's Macmillan on privatisation iirc?

    As for this being a 'bad' deal - I have no great opinion on that. I was just commenting on why a certain type of brain chemistry will have a strong (and adverse) opinion on it. It won't be because they've run the rule over the detail. It'll be their attachment to the idea of residual Empire Britannica.

    People are forever coming out with their little diagnoses of the leftist mindset. Just returning the favour. I try not to make a habit of it - analysing why people say things rather than what they say - because I know it irritates and it's also a bit of a conversational dead end. But the aroma is particularly strong on this one.
    Not unreasonable, but I'd say the mirror image is also true - there's a certain type of British left wing brain chemistry that is triggered by Britain having overseas territories, which Really Ought To Be Given To Someone Else. Because Empire, or something. David Lammy is certainly one of these, it looks like SKS is too. It's certainly not clear what the advantage to Britain is of this deal, nor whether this was a consideration. I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest. I don't think that's a right-wing view. I think that would be the view of most people in most countries.
    I'd rather the British government tried to do diplomacy in the British interest.

    Out of interest, why?

    Don't get me wrong, I agree yours is not a right wing view but a very common one.

    But what makes you care more about, say, a Cornish fishermen than a Breton fisherman? What makes you want the British government to prioritise British interests per se rather than e.g. seek to reduce global inequality?

    Genuine question - I find you often talk sense and am interested in how you (or others) justify nationalism.
    Politicians represent their voters. They don’t represent humanity in general.

    Think of it as being like a trustee. You’re there to advance the interests of the beneficiaries. You can’t hand out the trust’s assets to people who are not beneficiaries.
    Good analogy, thanks.

    But, to extend it, how do you feel about donkey sanctuaries?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-abuse-donkey-charity-funding-b2607499.html
    Eeyore, eeyore, eeyore to know better.
    Do donkeys make good mince?

    That place gets £50m+ per annum. It's a tax on British sentimentality around animals.
    I was once at a charities’ function where the Legacy Officer for a medical charity said the donkeys would be made into salami.

    Is it vegan???
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    That is not what that sentence says.
    It says that negotiations were agreed to at the UN General Assembly meeting, otherwise why else would it have been mentioned in the context of the negotiations starting?
    But as you have now realised, it doesn't say that, it does just mention the two things together. It is actually quite clear that the decision taken to open negotiations is taking place after Truss has left office.
    It causally links them together with the word "following", otherwise they would have been irrelevant to the formal opening of negotiations.
    No it doesn't, "following" is not an indication of causality, though it is an attempt to indicate continuity. How could it possibly indicate causality anyway? Truss was out of office, so who the fuck was going to give Mauritius the Chagos Islands on her say so?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Scott_xP said:

    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Tina Peters, former Colorado county clerk, was sentenced to nine years behind bars for leading a voting system data breach scheme as part of a pro-Trump plot to steal the 2020 election

    LAW & ORDER!

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1841925889975844926

    Wow. The judge's comments on sentencing.

    Get in!!!

    "I am convinced you would do it all again. You are as defiant a defendant as this court has ever seen..."
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    edited October 3
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,030
    edited October 3
    RobD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Minor alert: First instagram post from a friend about the destruction of the MPA.

    I wonder what Charles will think of it?
    I wonder if they even told him beforehand?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    edited October 3
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,708
    Leon said:

    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn

    I'm wondering if Sir Keir pencilled in the Chagos stuff for now because he assumed he'd still be basking in honeymoon sunshine - there'd be some grumbles but it would generally go unnoticed. Unfortunately, such has been the explosion of his reputation that everything he does is now being put under the most intense scrutiny with no one giving him any leeway whatsoever. So it's just one PR disaster after another. He desperately needs to do something no one actively dislikes to claw back a bit of good will. But what?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    Leon said:

    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn

    I'm wondering if Sir Keir pencilled in the Chagos stuff for now because he assumed he'd still be basking in honeymoon sunshine - there'd be some grumbles but it would generally go unnoticed. Unfortunately, such has been the explosion of his reputation that everything he does is now being put under the most intense scrutiny with no one giving him any leeway whatsoever. So it's just one PR disaster after another. He desperately needs to do something no one actively dislikes to claw back a bit of good will. But what?
    Resign?

    I'll get my coat.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    So....
    Jenrick odds on, Cleverly under 4 and likely to be runner up, Harris / Trump evens and too close to call.
    Are there any value punts left or is it sit tight and pick the moment to cash out?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,808
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    Quite. And the decision to open negotiations on the future of the Chagos Islands was, the evidence for which you unfortunately provided us with in your quote, taken after she left office.

    I've never met anyone like Truss for attracting strange accusations. I'm sure we had a Tweet here the other day saying she blamed transgender conspirators for her downfall. Before that it was 'storming off the stage instead of making a concession speech' when the losers don't make speeches in that constituency.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    ohnotnow said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/caribbean-leaders-hope-new-uk-government-is-open-talks-slavery-reparations-2024-10-03/

    Caribbean leaders hope that Britain under its new Labour government might shift its long-standing position on slavery reparations and agree to discuss how to address past wrongs and their current day legacy.

    Consecutive British governments have rejected calls for reparations but the chairman of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) reparations commission, Hilary Beckles, said this stance might change under the new Labour administration.

    Britain's new foreign minister David Lammy is of Caribbean descent and often refers to himself as a descendant of enslaved people. In an interview, opens new tab with The Guardian newspaper before the election, Lammy said his family history would inform his work.

    "(Lammy) has been a supporter of the (reparations) discourse while he was in opposition," Beckles said. "The question is whether he would be given a free hand in his government... to take the matter to a higher level."

    A Farage, Reform and Jenrick wet dream if Starmer and Lammy were stupid enough to do that. You can imagine the posters and ads 'Labour take money from our NHS and your granny's heating in winter to fund woke reparations for sunny Jamaica and Barbados for something which happened before even your great granddad was born!'

    What next, do we ask for reparations from Denmark for the Viking raids?
    I think we should demand reparations from the Italians, Austrians, Germans, Russians and Turks for the Roman Empire.

    As all five states have claimed descent from the Roman Empire at one time or another, at least one of them should stump up.
    I still think the Beaker People owe us a shilling or two. Or a beaker at least. A good one, mind.
    They took us for mugs...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Except those who have been wronged were not involved in the discussion, and are not actually getting anything back. Instead, the islands are passing to a third party.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    Dopermean said:

    So....
    Jenrick odds on, Cleverly under 4 and likely to be runner up, Harris / Trump evens and too close to call.
    Are there any value punts left or is it sit tight and pick the moment to cash out?

    How about Phillies for the World Series?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Leon said:

    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn

    I'm wondering if Sir Keir pencilled in the Chagos stuff for now because he assumed he'd still be basking in honeymoon sunshine - there'd be some grumbles but it would generally go unnoticed. Unfortunately, such has been the explosion of his reputation that everything he does is now being put under the most intense scrutiny with no one giving him any leeway whatsoever. So it's just one PR disaster after another. He desperately needs to do something no one actively dislikes to claw back a bit of good will. But what?
    Calais.

    Get us Calais back.

    Then we can have British bobbies on the beach beat.
  • ManOfGwentManOfGwent Posts: 108
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Returning to who? People who have no claim to them. Certainly not the people who used to live there.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,709
    Dopermean said:

    So....
    Jenrick odds on, Cleverly under 4 and likely to be runner up, Harris / Trump evens and too close to call.
    Are there any value punts left or is it sit tight and pick the moment to cash out?

    Indie to win Nebraska senate race.

    Cruz to lose in Texas.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    ydoethur said:

    Dopermean said:

    So....
    Jenrick odds on, Cleverly under 4 and likely to be runner up, Harris / Trump evens and too close to call.
    Are there any value punts left or is it sit tight and pick the moment to cash out?

    Indie to win Nebraska senate race.

    Cruz to lose in Texas.
    Debbie Mucarsel-Powell to win for the Dems in the Florida Senate race.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Crawley Labour MP says

    'This is very disappointing. The decision over the future of the islands belongs the Chagossian people, it's not for the UK to bargain away. 60 years on from their exile, they've been let down again.

    UK will give sovereignty of Chagos Islands to Mauritius'
    https://x.com/PeterKLamb/status/1841804859294597173

    Along with the money WE are paying, this is the other inexplicable fatuity of this terrible terrible deal. Its not good for the Chagossians

    All we’ve done is sign a truly shite deal handing over sovereign uk territory to a country chancing its arm from 1,300 miles away and all at the obvious behest of China. I imagine they cannot believe that we have so spinelessly agreed

    And of course now every other tiny nation will have a go at ludicrous cowardly Britain under Labour
    Although doesn’t it set a precedent that Crimea belongs to Ukraine? Most recent sovereign power.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Returning to who? People who have no claim to them. Certainly not the people who used to live there.
    That's not what what the ICJ decided.

    https://www.icj-cij.org/case/169

    The Chagos were part of Mauritius territory, illegally removed. Indeed that's why we deported the Chaggossians to Mauritius rather than anywhere else.

    Mauritius is one of the most democratic countries in the world and a member of the Commonwealth, not some despotic dictatorship.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Those who were wronged were not allowed to participate in the negotiations.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115

    ohnotnow said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/caribbean-leaders-hope-new-uk-government-is-open-talks-slavery-reparations-2024-10-03/

    Caribbean leaders hope that Britain under its new Labour government might shift its long-standing position on slavery reparations and agree to discuss how to address past wrongs and their current day legacy.

    Consecutive British governments have rejected calls for reparations but the chairman of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) reparations commission, Hilary Beckles, said this stance might change under the new Labour administration.

    Britain's new foreign minister David Lammy is of Caribbean descent and often refers to himself as a descendant of enslaved people. In an interview, opens new tab with The Guardian newspaper before the election, Lammy said his family history would inform his work.

    "(Lammy) has been a supporter of the (reparations) discourse while he was in opposition," Beckles said. "The question is whether he would be given a free hand in his government... to take the matter to a higher level."

    A Farage, Reform and Jenrick wet dream if Starmer and Lammy were stupid enough to do that. You can imagine the posters and ads 'Labour take money from our NHS and your granny's heating in winter to fund woke reparations for sunny Jamaica and Barbados for something which happened before even your great granddad was born!'

    What next, do we ask for reparations from Denmark for the Viking raids?
    I think we should demand reparations from the Italians, Austrians, Germans, Russians and Turks for the Roman Empire.

    As all five states have claimed descent from the Roman Empire at one time or another, at least one of them should stump up.
    I still think the Beaker People owe us a shilling or two. Or a beaker at least. A good one, mind.
    They took us for mugs...
    I think you must be in your cups.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    edited October 3
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Returning to who? People who have no claim to them. Certainly not the people who used to live there.
    That's not what what the ICJ decided.

    https://www.icj-cij.org/case/169

    The Chagos were part of Mauritius territory, illegally removed. Indeed that's why we deported the Chaggossians to Mauritius rather than anywhere else.

    Mauritius is one of the most democratic countries in the world and a member of the Commonwealth, not some despotic dictatorship.
    Mauritius is a Chinese vassal.

    The opinion of the ICJ is … of interest, but in no sense binding.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    The Good Lord speaks:

    Lord Ashcroft
    @LordAshcroft
    I believe I’m one of the few visitors who have been to the Chagos Islands which the uk has just agreed to transfer sovereignty to Mauritius. I doubt more than a handful of Parliamentarians have ever visited let alone any current Foreign Minister. This transfer is a strategic mistake. Next will be Pitcairn to New Zealand which the last Labour Government was considering when last in office. Will our sovereign base in Cyprus also be returned…and so on …
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Those who were wronged were not allowed to participate in the negotiations.
    And those it has been "returned" to never owned it.

    But, apart from that....genius.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    ydoethur said:

    Dopermean said:

    So....
    Jenrick odds on, Cleverly under 4 and likely to be runner up, Harris / Trump evens and too close to call.
    Are there any value punts left or is it sit tight and pick the moment to cash out?

    Indie to win Nebraska senate race.

    Cruz to lose in Texas.
    Cheers, will have a look.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Returning to who? People who have no claim to them. Certainly not the people who used to live there.
    That's not what what the ICJ decided.

    https://www.icj-cij.org/case/169

    The Chagos were part of Mauritius territory, illegally removed. Indeed that's why we deported the Chaggossians to Mauritius rather than anywhere else.

    Mauritius is one of the most democratic countries in the world and a member of the Commonwealth, not some despotic dictatorship.
    But will the actual remaining Chagossians benefit? Or is this just like switching out the name of the owner and switching around who gets paid for rent eventually?

    I'm not really seeing the high morality at play here regardless of the rights or wrongs of the decision, support or oppose it seems to have little to do with those removed, as far as we, the USA, or Mauritius are concerned.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    Come on, did anyone think Labour would be THIS bad after just 3 months?

    Literally handing over chunks of British territory to China in a deal where WE pay? And thereby angering the USA?

    As far as I can see the only British politician applauding this (outside starmer & co) is… Jeremy Corbyn

    I'm wondering if Sir Keir pencilled in the Chagos stuff for now because he assumed he'd still be basking in honeymoon sunshine - there'd be some grumbles but it would generally go unnoticed. Unfortunately, such has been the explosion of his reputation that everything he does is now being put under the most intense scrutiny with no one giving him any leeway whatsoever. So it's just one PR disaster after another. He desperately needs to do something no one actively dislikes to claw back a bit of good will. But what?
    That occurred to me

    I don't think they expected the brutal backlash over Winter Fuel, ditto Freebiegate, and ditto this -

    And all entirely unforced errors, with the forced choices - the Budget - yet to come

    The particular problem here is that the TV news is not pictures of cheering Chagossians going home to their stolen islands, they are not happy. It's Jeremy Corbyn tweeting his pious approval as the West suffers a strategic blow
  • ManOfGwentManOfGwent Posts: 108
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Returning to who? People who have no claim to them. Certainly not the people who used to live there.
    That's not what what the ICJ decided.

    https://www.icj-cij.org/case/169

    The Chagos were part of Mauritius territory, illegally removed. Indeed that's why we deported the Chaggossians to Mauritius rather than anywhere else.

    Mauritius is one of the most democratic countries in the world and a member of the Commonwealth, not some despotic dictatorship.
    Yes a moronic decision that gives no care to the people who lived there and all the weight to the fact someone decided for a brief period of time the islands should be for some purposes, not all, be administered as a grouping.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Except those who have been wronged were not involved in the discussion, and are not actually getting anything back. Instead, the islands are passing to a third party.
    Chagosians now have the right of return (except Diego Garcia) for the first time in a half century. The Chagossians and their descendents in Mauritius seem to support the deal.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Except those who have been wronged were not involved in the discussion, and are not actually getting anything back. Instead, the islands are passing to a third party.
    Chagosians now have the right of return (except Diego Garcia) for the first time in a half century. The Chagossians and their descendents in Mauritius seem to support the deal.

    No they don't. Their LABOUR MP in Crawley is up in arms
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,115
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cleverly opened negotiations re Chagos?

    Seems like it was Truss who opened negotiations after meeting the Mauritian PM at a UN meeting. Any other unexploded bombs from her tenure as PM?

    Following the meeting between the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly, the UK and Mauritius have decided to begin negotiations on the exercise of sovereignty over the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT)/Chagos archipelago.
    Perhaps she thought there was a trade deal in it?
    The sentence doesn't say that Truss opened negotiations. It is quite explicit that the decision to open negotiations happens after Truss has left power.
    Ms Truss was Foreign Sec at the time. The PM referred to is Mauritian.
    No, she met with the Mauritian PM at the UN General Assembly during her momentary tenure as PM.
    The negotiations started in 2022.
    Yes, "following" a discussion between Truss and Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly in October 2022, when she was PM.

    e.g. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9673/CBP-9673.pdf

    This announcement followed bilateral talks between the UK Prime Minister, Liz Truss, and Prime Minister Jugnauth at the UN General Assembly earlier in 2022.
    Yes, good move by her.

    Returning the islands is righting a historical wrong.
    Those who were wronged were not allowed to participate in the negotiations.
    And those it has been "returned" to never owned it.

    But, apart from that....genius.
    That's not what the ICJ said.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Northern Ireland already returned?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Promising "reparations" (i.e, tax payers money) for Cromwells Conquest?
This discussion has been closed.