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Why you shouldn’t read too much into small unweighted subsamples – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited October 12 in General
Why you shouldn’t read too much into small unweighted subsamples – politicalbetting.com

Here are our two polls of KY-06, the district where we closed out live polling at KY-06.Look at the difference, by chance, at n=100! These are two *weighted* samples with a net-30 point difference. In the end, totally the same. pic.twitter.com/P4m7Lh8sko

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    I approve this message.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Politically contentious, but it would have saved many billions on infrastructure.
    The devil would be in the detail. As a general principle, it's a good idea, so long as competing interests aren't completely ignored.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    How often do pollsters separately weight sub samples to be statistically meaningful ?
    I assume it's pretty rare.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Hmm. Semiconductor manufacture uses some really nasty chemicals and the bill specifically aims to prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from investigating possible pollution incidents or getting the companies to carry out proper cleanups on contaminated land. Given there have been issues with some of these chemicals penetrating the groundwaters in California it is probably not a good idea getting rid of these protections.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Nigelb said:

    How often do pollsters separately weight sub samples to be statistically meaningful ?
    I assume it's pretty rare.

    I have a vague recollection of one UK pollster doing it notably more often, but forget the details.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    edited October 3

    Nigelb said:

    How often do pollsters separately weight sub samples to be statistically meaningful ?
    I assume it's pretty rare.

    I have a vague recollection of one UK pollster doing it notably more often, but forget the details.
    YouGov do or rather try to.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Hmm. Semiconductor manufacture uses some really nasty chemicals and the bill specifically aims to prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from investigating possible pollution incidents or getting the companies to carry out proper cleanups on contaminated land. Given there have been issues with some of these chemicals penetrating the groundwaters in California it is probably not a good idea getting rid of these protections.
    The amount of water that chip fabs require is also somewhat surprisingly vast.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Hmm. Semiconductor manufacture uses some really nasty chemicals and the bill specifically aims to prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from investigating possible pollution incidents or getting the companies to carry out proper cleanups on contaminated land. Given there have been issues with some of these chemicals penetrating the groundwaters in California it is probably not a good idea getting rid of these protections.
    I'd have to read the bill in detail to fully comment, but the rubric suggests this is about speeding construction rather than completely exempting from EPA investigation once in operation.

    ...This bill modifies and limits the review of certain semiconductor (i.e., microchip) projects under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA) and the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA).

    Specifically, the bill exempts from NEPA and NHPA specified semiconductor projects that receive financial assistance under the William M. (Mac) Thornberry National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021.

    Next, the bill allows the Department of Commerce to serve as the lead agency for the review of a semiconductor project that receives such financial assistance but is not exempted from review under NEPA. A single environmental document and joint record of decision must be prepared for a semiconductor project. In completing the environmental review, Commerce may adopt a prior study or decision under certain circumstances. The bill also allows a state to assume the responsibility of an environmental review under NEPA for a semiconductor project.

    Finally, the bill sets a statute of limitations for certain claims under NEPA...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    As an aside, NEPA is one of the few pieces of environmental legislation which predates Biden's tenure in Congress.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,609
    edited October 3
    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Hmm. Semiconductor manufacture uses some really nasty chemicals and the bill specifically aims to prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from investigating possible pollution incidents or getting the companies to carry out proper cleanups on contaminated land. Given there have been issues with some of these chemicals penetrating the groundwaters in California it is probably not a good idea getting rid of these protections.
    The amount of water that chip fabs require is also somewhat surprisingly vast.
    Nearly 5m gallons a day.
    https://ide-tech.com/en/blog/why-water-sustainability-is-vital-for-the-semiconductor-industry/
    Though there is considerable recycling.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    edited October 3

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a new president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    A new president Trump? Not keen if it's one of the Donald's kids, but we could try that snooker player...

    ETA: Also, it's important to know, if Trump is the answer, what the question is!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a new president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    We know that the Saudis have bought him once already. So that's not a surprise.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,609
    edited October 3
    Selebian said:

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a new president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    A new president Trump? Not keen if it's one of the Donald's kids, but we could try that snooker player...
    Thanks and I did not express that well !!!

    Have edited it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    Did she say why they thought that ?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    That certainly would not be the official line of those governments .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,609
    edited October 3
    Taz said:

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    Did she say why they thought that ?
    No - She just came out of the blue with it
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767
    100! is a small number !!
    The number of atoms in the observable universe (~ 10^80) is minuscule compared to that !!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    nico679 said:

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    That certainly would not be the official line of those governments .
    I'm pretty sure MBS is in favour of a president who can be bought.
    Though allowing someone who has US citizens chopped up to have any input into whom the US elects seems sub-optimal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    "Do you like or dislike (X) as a person?"

    Harris:
    Like: 42%
    Dislike: 34%
    Neutral: 18%

    Trump:
    Dislike: 51%
    Like: 32%
    Neutral: 15%

    YouGov / Oct 1, 2024 / n=1638

    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1841567740324413781
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    Because, unless tech comes to our rescue there won’t be nearly enough young to look after the old, pay their pensions, etc

    And highly productive nations like Korea are on the cusp of disappearing entirely

    Upside: much cheaper houses
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    It’s always a warning sign in a poll if there’s been a large upweighting in a particular demographic group .

    That’s why pollsters do everything possible to not have to do that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Dopermean, a thousand years ago when I was writing fiction, I accidentally sent a beta reader a copy of a draft containing my own notes (which tend to be very sarcastically critical "Remove this apostrophe then cut your own hands off" etc). Luckily, it was an amusing rather than serious screw up.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    It could also be that the world’s so shit that people don’t want to bring children into it.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    The problem is lack of research time if you want questions on topics that Boris doesn't have stock replies for.

    I find it hilarious that Bozo is losing 30 minutes / 1 hour of TV time during which he would remind people he existed and has a book to sell.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    Depends on the cause. If it is just a societal/choice thing then it is only, as you say, an issue of economics - although for developed nations a very nasty one. If it is a result of some underlying fertility issues as increasingly seems to be the case, then yes it is a problem. At least for humanity if not for the wider natural world.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    The problem is lack of research time if you want questions on topics that Boris doesn't have stock replies for.

    I find it hilarious that Bozo is losing 30 minutes / 1 hour of TV time during which he would remind people he existed and has a book to sell.
    And to remind Tory MPs what they've lost as they vote on the fantastic four.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    edited October 3
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Hmm. Semiconductor manufacture uses some really nasty chemicals and the bill specifically aims to prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from investigating possible pollution incidents or getting the companies to carry out proper cleanups on contaminated land. Given there have been issues with some of these chemicals penetrating the groundwaters in California it is probably not a good idea getting rid of these protections.
    I'd have to read the bill in detail to fully comment, but the rubric suggests this is about speeding construction rather than completely exempting from EPA investigation once in operation.

    ...This bill modifies and limits the review of certain semiconductor (i.e., microchip) projects under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA) and the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA).

    Specifically, the bill exempts from NEPA and NHPA specified semiconductor projects that receive financial assistance under the William M. (Mac) Thornberry National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021.

    Next, the bill allows the Department of Commerce to serve as the lead agency for the review of a semiconductor project that receives such financial assistance but is not exempted from review under NEPA. A single environmental document and joint record of decision must be prepared for a semiconductor project. In completing the environmental review, Commerce may adopt a prior study or decision under certain circumstances. The bill also allows a state to assume the responsibility of an environmental review under NEPA for a semiconductor project.

    Finally, the bill sets a statute of limitations for certain claims under NEPA...
    The ony counterpoint I have been able to find so far - in a very quick scan - is this:

    https://democrats-science.house.gov/news/press-releases/ranking-member-lofgren-floor-statement-for-the-record-on-consideration-of-s-2228-the-building-chips-in-america-act

    Of course the problem is that if you are not doing the proper reviews before hand then you have to deal with the pollution afterwards.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Dopermean said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    The problem is lack of research time if you want questions on topics that Boris doesn't have stock replies for.

    I find it hilarious that Bozo is losing 30 minutes / 1 hour of TV time during which he would remind people he existed and has a book to sell.
    And to remind Tory MPs what they've lost as they vote on the fantastic four.
    Carrie is backing Jenrick. Who would put Boris back on the parliamentary candidates list I
    suspect if he did consider a return to frontline politics
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    I agree with this entirely. But it's a fool's victory* - he's solving his own terrible demographics by importing people from a neighbouring culture with terrible demographics. He's got the same problem, just on a slightly bigger scale.


    *I don't think this is a phrase. Maybe there is a better one.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,122
    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    We'd have to expand the prisons to cope with green protesters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    It could also be that the world’s so shit that people don’t want to bring children into it.
    People managed to have children at the time of the Black Death, the civil war, after the world wars and when most of the population rented and with no NHS and little to no welfare state. Though of course most women didn't work full time and didn't really even enter the workplace at all until the industrial revolution and no women went to university either until the late 19th century but got married and looked after the home and children
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    As are his brain-drain of the brightest and best.

    As are his killing or maiming of two-thirds of a million breeding-age males.

    Mother Russia is barren. 19th century Mormonism might get a foothold in Putin's Russia, as able bodied men get themselves multiple wives.

    Or else Islam.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    Dictators like a wannabe-dictator who likes dictators (and is squeamish about violence when they're not). Shock.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
    The MAGA sickness is now affecting the UK population.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    Also Korea like much of the west is largely secular now whereas Africa has far higher fertility rates with its adults of child bearing age from 16 to 50 much more religious
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    I don't think we know who cancelled the interview, the BBC or Boris Johnson having read the notes
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    If they keep killing each other it will become even less white
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    nico679 said:

    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
    The MAGA sickness is now affecting the UK population.
    The public like simple answers; complex answers are difficult and messy. If you want to get ahead, feed the public the simple answers.

    A decade ago, it was that it's all the EU's fault.
    Now, it's all the fault of immigrants.

    Simple answers that are not really answers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited October 3
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    You say that, but birth rates in the Baltic states are even lower than in Russia. Heading south at a remarkable clip - soon you’ll be below 1 child per woman, like Taiwan or Macao

    Why are the Balts disappearing?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Nigelb said:

    nico679 said:

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    That certainly would not be the official line of those governments .
    I'm pretty sure MBS is in favour of a president who can be bought.
    Though allowing someone who has US citizens chopped up to have any input into whom the US elects seems sub-optimal.
    Ah, tyrannophobia. Since that MBS has a sun tan, that's probably racist as well.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited October 3
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    Good morning

    Sky reporting Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, and UAE have said a president Trump would be the answer for the middle east

    No idea of source but certainly that is what Kay Burley said in an interview just now

    Iran and Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority notably not in that list
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    On topic, yes.

    Also, methodology. You have to select a theoretically representative sample in the first place, even before the vagaries of random chance in the opinions of those people come into play. This is always difficult, and particularly so in the US where state contests vary over 2-/4-/6-year cycles, where turnout and registration are crucial and are also not consistent over time, and where access to voting varies considerably from place to place and year to year.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    nico679 said:

    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
    The MAGA sickness is now affecting the UK population.
    The public like simple answers; complex answers are difficult and messy. If you want to get ahead, feed the public the simple answers.

    A decade ago, it was that it's all the EU's fault.
    Now, it's all the fault of immigrants.

    Simple answers that are not really answers.
    Even better feed them simple answers that pray on their pre-existing racist overtones..
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920
    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    It could also be that the world’s so shit that people don’t want to bring children into it.
    People managed to have children at the time of the Black Death, the civil war, after the world wars and when most of the population rented and with no NHS and little to no welfare state. Though of course most women didn't work full time and didn't really even enter the workplace at all until the industrial revolution and no women went to university either until the late 19th century but got married and looked after the home and children
    The good old days, eh HY?

    Which of your leadership candidates is standing on that platform?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114

    nico679 said:

    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
    The MAGA sickness is now affecting the UK population.
    The public like simple answers; complex answers are difficult and messy. If you want to get ahead, feed the public the simple answers.

    A decade ago, it was that it's all the EU's fault.
    Now, it's all the fault of immigrants.

    Simple answers that are not really answers.
    Happening all over europe. Not just MAGA sickness in UK.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
    A colleague went to work for a while with a rather well-known South Korean tech company, which is pretty much a city of its own. He claimed that the South Koreans didn't work quite as hard as people made out; that their hours were long, but so were long breaks in the middle of the day and other time outs.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
    A colleague went to work for a while with a rather well-known South Korean tech company, which is pretty much a city of its own. He claimed that the South Koreans didn't work quite as hard as people made out; that their hours were long, but so were long breaks in the middle of the day and other time outs.
    The hours are the issue more than anything else - if you are tied to the office for x hours you can't exactly go home and shift the washing round as you make a coffee.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    Also Korea like much of the west is largely secular now whereas Africa has far higher fertility rates with its adults of child bearing age from 16 to 50 much more religious
    Religion is a partial explanation, perhaps. Eg Israel
    (and Palestine) have notably healthy TFRs. Egypt is high (but falling fast)

    But many other Islamic countries are way below 2.1: Iran, Malaysia, Azerbaijan - all dwindling
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    You say that, but birth rates in the Baltic states are even lower than in Russia. Heading south at a remarkable clip - soon you’ll be below 1 child per woman, like Taiwan or Macao

    Why are the Balts disappearing?
    What's the methodology on that? Are women actually having fewer births there per person, or is it that the birth-per-unit-population is unusually low? Because the latter could well be down to large-scale economic migration among younger adults. Both will have the same effect on population change but the reason matters too.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    It could also be that the world’s so shit that people don’t want to bring children into it.
    People managed to have children at the time of the Black Death, the civil war, after the world wars and when most of the population rented and with no NHS and little to no welfare state. Though of course most women didn't work full time and didn't really even enter the workplace at all until the industrial revolution and no women went to university either until the late 19th century but got married and looked after the home and children
    The good old days, eh HY?

    Which of your leadership candidates is standing on that platform?
    Badenoch's next tweet.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,585
    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    When you and I were born, Leon, the world's population was less than 4 billion. Now it is twice that, a long way to go yet.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Yes, I agree. This has consequences for everything.

    Most immediately, the imminent collapse in China's population means that their fighting age population will also collapse, which will increase the sense of urgency in Beijing to use the military strength their economic strength has given them before it melts away.

    But once the world was a whole is shrinking the consequences become even larger.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    You say that, but birth rates in the Baltic states are even lower than in Russia. Heading south at a remarkable clip - soon you’ll be below 1 child per woman, like Taiwan or Macao

    Why are the Balts disappearing?
    What's the methodology on that? Are women actually having fewer births there per person, or is it that the birth-per-unit-population is unusually low? Because the latter could well be down to large-scale economic migration among younger adults. Both will have the same effect on population change but the reason matters too.
    A fair point and I have no immediate answer

    I do know that Poland has stopped exporting so many people but it still has horrendous demographics - some of the worst in Europe. Forecast TFR of 1.10
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    HYUFD said:

    Dopermean said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    The problem is lack of research time if you want questions on topics that Boris doesn't have stock replies for.

    I find it hilarious that Bozo is losing 30 minutes / 1 hour of TV time during which he would remind people he existed and has a book to sell.
    And to remind Tory MPs what they've lost as they vote on the fantastic four.
    Carrie is backing Jenrick. Who would put Boris back on the parliamentary candidates list I
    suspect if he did consider a return to frontline politics
    Carrie has - how shall we put it? - dubious judgement when it comes to men :wink:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    And this one. Big deal for the US chip industry.

    On Wednesday, October 2, 2024, the President signed into law:

    S. 2228, the “Building Chips in America Act of 2023,” which exempts certain projects relating to the production of semiconductors from environmental reviews under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969.
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/legislation/2024/10/02/bill-signed-s-2228/

    I wonder what the practicalities would be of the UK adopting a similar approach for critical infrastructure and projects ?
    Hmm. Semiconductor manufacture uses some really nasty chemicals and the bill specifically aims to prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from investigating possible pollution incidents or getting the companies to carry out proper cleanups on contaminated land. Given there have been issues with some of these chemicals penetrating the groundwaters in California it is probably not a good idea getting rid of these protections.
    I'd have to read the bill in detail to fully comment, but the rubric suggests this is about speeding construction rather than completely exempting from EPA investigation once in operation.

    ...This bill modifies and limits the review of certain semiconductor (i.e., microchip) projects under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA) and the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA).

    Specifically, the bill exempts from NEPA and NHPA specified semiconductor projects that receive financial assistance under the William M. (Mac) Thornberry National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021.

    Next, the bill allows the Department of Commerce to serve as the lead agency for the review of a semiconductor project that receives such financial assistance but is not exempted from review under NEPA. A single environmental document and joint record of decision must be prepared for a semiconductor project. In completing the environmental review, Commerce may adopt a prior study or decision under certain circumstances. The bill also allows a state to assume the responsibility of an environmental review under NEPA for a semiconductor project.

    Finally, the bill sets a statute of limitations for certain claims under NEPA...
    The ony counterpoint I have been able to find so far - in a very quick scan - is this:

    https://democrats-science.house.gov/news/press-releases/ranking-member-lofgren-floor-statement-for-the-record-on-consideration-of-s-2228-the-building-chips-in-america-act

    Of course the problem is that if you are not doing the proper reviews before hand then you have to deal with the pollution afterwards.
    Note the declared intention in the bill - "A single environmental document and joint record of decision must be prepared for a semiconductor project".

    The problem is really how this will be done and enforced. One of the big problems in the US is the intersection between multiple Federal, State and local agencies. These often allow problems to slip through the cracks.

    They also can result in serious legal barriers - a chap Texas had a fun one. Essentially a new pond of water had formed on a bit of his land. Under one set of rules/laws (local) he had to drain it, for public health reasons. If he did, he was potentially prosecutable under federal rules for wetlands. Oh, and if he drained it, where the water went was a whole other bag of fun.

    Not dissimilar stuff impedes big projects in the UK.

    It is of interest that, for offshore wind, the streamlining wasn't about removing all regulation. It was setting out, very clearly, exactly what needed to be done, to make a decision on the project. Line up all the reports and surveys for ship wrecks, fish habitat etc etc. Get all your ducks lined up in a nice row - and you have a decision. Further, a decision that wasn't subjectable to automatic legal challenge.

    As a member of the Enquiry Industrial Complex put it to me (slightly abbreviated) "It's unfair - there is nothing we can use to delay a project".
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    If a low fertility rate becomes entrenched as a cultural norm - as appears to be the case in China - it becomes very hard to change. Then the human population tends to zero.

    I find that quite sad.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,143
    nico679 said:

    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
    The MAGA sickness is now affecting the UK population.
    I am quite surprised Farage hasn't embraced MEGA for England.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    If they keep killing each other it will become even less white
    Putin has been very careful to bolster his army so far with criminals, mercenaries and volunteers from the back end of beyond - none of which matter very much to him or indeed the Russian people in general. But that well is running dry. Russia will have to change strategy soon, or mobilise more visible parts of the population, or win. At the moment, he's banking on winning, via political pressure from DC after January.

    But yes, he's been obsessed with Russia's demographics for a long time. Indeed, a core part of his nationalist-authoritarian philosophy comes from the collapse in Russia's birth rate through the chaos and uncertainties of the 1990s.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    When you and I were born, Leon, the world's population was less than 4 billion. Now it is twice that, a long way to go yet.
    Yes indeed. There are, simply, far too many humans now, for this one planet

    So maybe this is Gaia, rebalancing herself naturally. But we don’t want humans to disappear entirely

    We need to somehow go back to a world of 2-3bn humans but at the same time start settling other planets
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
    A colleague went to work for a while with a rather well-known South Korean tech company, which is pretty much a city of its own. He claimed that the South Koreans didn't work quite as hard as people made out; that their hours were long, but so were long breaks in the middle of the day and other time outs.
    The hours are the issue more than anything else - if you are tied to the office for x hours you can't exactly go home and shift the washing round as you make a coffee.
    Yes. His view (and admittedly this anecdote is from one engineer) is that it was a crazy way to run things. I got the impression the management saw the hours people were in/around the office/campus as being a sign of their work. In reality, the engineers were using lots of the lovely staff incentives during the work hours. Which was fair enough from their perspective.

    Whereas in the west, we often don't like hanging around the office as much as we would like.

    The guy was a crazy hardworker himself (in the pre-marriage and pre-kids phase of his work...) so he knew a little about working hard.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    I find this subject totally fascinating.

    My headline view is that the very big problems of demographic decline are rather smaller than the very big problems of untramelled demographic growth. So on a global scale there's that to be cheery about. But there's no doubt they are big problems.
    The wikipedia page on Chinese demographics has a little animation of their projected age/sex pyramid, which is quite startling.


    The interesting thing is that demographic decline seems to happen everywhere in the developed or almost-developed world, regardless of local culture and politics. It's easy to blame housing costs, and housing costs are certainly a problem, but globally, poverty clearly doesn't stop people having children - all the really high birth rates are in really poor places. It's easy to blame the choices people make, but this seems to hold true across all cultures - and in any case, I think it's the case that people continue to want children in the same numbers they always did. The number of childless women who get to their mid-40s and wish they'd had children is about 90% of the number of childless women who get to their mid-40s. The number of people who wish they'd had more children is almost infinitely higher than the proportion who wish they'd had fewer.

    There are all sorts of reasons why children don't happen, but my theory is that they have a common root: across all developed and almost-developed societies, there are many more old people than there used to be, and the more old people you have, the more resources you have to put into looking after that generation, so the less you have for the next generation. Low birth rates are to a large extent a feature of high birth rates a generation or two ago: the steeper the population growth a generation or two ago (e.g. East Asia), the steeper the decline now.
    This doesn't hold for sub-Saharan Africa because so few people make it to old age. But when they start doing so, we'll see the same pattern there.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Will we see at least one Cleverly/Jenrick BF cross-over before next Wednesday?
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,585
    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    And housing like rabbit hutches doesn't help.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
    A colleague went to work for a while with a rather well-known South Korean tech company, which is pretty much a city of its own. He claimed that the South Koreans didn't work quite as hard as people made out; that their hours were long, but so were long breaks in the middle of the day and other time outs.
    The hours are the issue more than anything else - if you are tied to the office for x hours you can't exactly go home and shift the washing round as you make a coffee.
    Yes. His view (and admittedly this anecdote is from one engineer) is that it was a crazy way to run things. I got the impression the management saw the hours people were in/around the office/campus as being a sign of their work. In reality, the engineers were using lots of the lovely staff incentives during the work hours. Which was fair enough from their perspective.

    Whereas in the west, we often don't like hanging around the office as much as we would like.

    The guy was a crazy hardworker himself (in the pre-marriage and pre-kids phase of his work...) so he knew a little about working hard.
    The thing I most remember when I was working in Denmark is walking out of a meeting at 4:40 into a completely empty office as everyone had gone home.



  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,405
    edited October 3
    Heading off 1.59% at the start of March onto 3.79% for another 5 years (Locked in now & potentially lower) - with all the inflation and tumult over the last few years that definitely feels like a win on the remortgage front.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    You say that, but birth rates in the Baltic states are even lower than in Russia. Heading south at a remarkable clip - soon you’ll be below 1 child per woman, like Taiwan or Macao

    Why are the Balts disappearing?
    What's the methodology on that? Are women actually having fewer births there per person, or is it that the birth-per-unit-population is unusually low? Because the latter could well be down to large-scale economic migration among younger adults. Both will have the same effect on population change but the reason matters too.
    A fair point and I have no immediate answer

    I do know that Poland has stopped exporting so many people but it still has horrendous demographics - some of the worst in Europe. Forecast TFR of 1.10
    Most of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union saw an apparent collapse in birth rates when the wall came down.

    A chap I worked with, while working on the finances of the ex-Soviet oil industry, found a fun example of how to tell lies with statistics. His idea of fun was figures - got talking to some people in the local medical care system in the 'stans. It turned out that under the Soviet regime, birth rate was a Target. The system was obsessed with having enough soldiers in the next generation - shades of WWII etc. So people lied, as they lied with all the other figures.

    It seemed that because of a lack of birth control (medicine), abortion was high in the good old USSR. So the management types counted pregnancies - before the abortions! - in their returns to Moscow as "children on the way".

    Makes you wonder how many countries that was true for.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
    A colleague went to work for a while with a rather well-known South Korean tech company, which is pretty much a city of its own. He claimed that the South Koreans didn't work quite as hard as people made out; that their hours were long, but so were long breaks in the middle of the day and other time outs.
    The hours are the issue more than anything else - if you are tied to the office for x hours you can't exactly go home and shift the washing round as you make a coffee.
    Yes. His view (and admittedly this anecdote is from one engineer) is that it was a crazy way to run things. I got the impression the management saw the hours people were in/around the office/campus as being a sign of their work. In reality, the engineers were using lots of the lovely staff incentives during the work hours. Which was fair enough from their perspective.

    Whereas in the west, we often don't like hanging around the office as much as we would like.

    The guy was a crazy hardworker himself (in the pre-marriage and pre-kids phase of his work...) so he knew a little about working hard.
    The thing I most remember when I was working in Denmark is walking out of a meeting at 4:40 into a completely empty office as everyone had gone home.



    3.30 in Norway. We used to sit in the Ops room overlooking the main entrance at Talisman in Stavanger and by about 3.40 the whole building was empty.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Cookie said:

    I find this subject totally fascinating.

    My headline view is that the very big problems of demographic decline are rather smaller than the very big problems of untramelled demographic growth. So on a global scale there's that to be cheery about. But there's no doubt they are big problems.
    The wikipedia page on Chinese demographics has a little animation of their projected age/sex pyramid, which is quite startling.


    The interesting thing is that demographic decline seems to happen everywhere in the developed or almost-developed world, regardless of local culture and politics. It's easy to blame housing costs, and housing costs are certainly a problem, but globally, poverty clearly doesn't stop people having children - all the really high birth rates are in really poor places. It's easy to blame the choices people make, but this seems to hold true across all cultures - and in any case, I think it's the case that people continue to want children in the same numbers they always did. The number of childless women who get to their mid-40s and wish they'd had children is about 90% of the number of childless women who get to their mid-40s. The number of people who wish they'd had more children is almost infinitely higher than the proportion who wish they'd had fewer.

    There are all sorts of reasons why children don't happen, but my theory is that they have a common root: across all developed and almost-developed societies, there are many more old people than there used to be, and the more old people you have, the more resources you have to put into looking after that generation, so the less you have for the next generation. Low birth rates are to a large extent a feature of high birth rates a generation or two ago: the steeper the population growth a generation or two ago (e.g. East Asia), the steeper the decline now.
    This doesn't hold for sub-Saharan Africa because so few people make it to old age. But when they start doing so, we'll see the same pattern there.

    At least you’ve done your bit!

    I’ve managed two but without going into details it could/should have been several more

    When I count my acquaintances it is striking how many are childless (and now going to stay that way). Sadly, I do think most of them regret it
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Will we see at least one Cleverly/Jenrick BF cross-over before next Wednesday?

    Be fine as long as it is by the result...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    If they keep killing each other it will become even less white
    Putin has been very careful to bolster his army so far with criminals, mercenaries and volunteers from the back end of beyond - none of which matter very much to him or indeed the Russian people in general. But that well is running dry. Russia will have to change strategy soon, or mobilise more visible parts of the population, or win. At the moment, he's banking on winning, via political pressure from DC after January.

    But yes, he's been obsessed with Russia's demographics for a long time. Indeed, a core part of his nationalist-authoritarian philosophy comes from the collapse in Russia's birth rate through the chaos and uncertainties of the 1990s.
    Part of his obsession with Ukraine (and the other Russian ultra-nationalists) is lots of "Russian culture/race" (as they see it) people. To add to the empire.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    In South Korea women are expected to have a job of equal status to her husband, work the same insanely long (to western eyes) hours and be the chief caregiver for any children.

    It's not surprising that most Women avoid marriage https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-marriages-birthrate-b2507149.html#:~:text=And age-wise, a significant,lowest fertility rate at 0.55.
    A colleague went to work for a while with a rather well-known South Korean tech company, which is pretty much a city of its own. He claimed that the South Koreans didn't work quite as hard as people made out; that their hours were long, but so were long breaks in the middle of the day and other time outs.
    The hours are the issue more than anything else - if you are tied to the office for x hours you can't exactly go home and shift the washing round as you make a coffee.
    Yes. His view (and admittedly this anecdote is from one engineer) is that it was a crazy way to run things. I got the impression the management saw the hours people were in/around the office/campus as being a sign of their work. In reality, the engineers were using lots of the lovely staff incentives during the work hours. Which was fair enough from their perspective.

    Whereas in the west, we often don't like hanging around the office as much as we would like.

    The guy was a crazy hardworker himself (in the pre-marriage and pre-kids phase of his work...) so he knew a little about working hard.
    The thing I most remember when I was working in Denmark is walking out of a meeting at 4:40 into a completely empty office as everyone had gone home.



    It's still like that.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Governments will have to approach warfare differently, when they no longer have vast numbers of young men to use as cannon fodder. Soldiers' lives are now a lot more precious. You can see that happening in advanced armies, with increasing use of drones and robotics.

    Back in the day when birthrates were well above replacement level, commanders could afford to be profligate with their soldiers' lives, secure in the knowledge that the population of young men would bounce back, after the war.

    Putin's generals haven't yet woken up to the fact that human wave tactics are destroying Russia.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    And housing like rabbit hutches doesn't help.
    Also, can the family live easily and well on one salary?

    The reaction to this question is always interesting, in the UK.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,944
    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dopermean said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    The problem is lack of research time if you want questions on topics that Boris doesn't have stock replies for.

    I find it hilarious that Bozo is losing 30 minutes / 1 hour of TV time during which he would remind people he existed and has a book to sell.
    And to remind Tory MPs what they've lost as they vote on the fantastic four.
    Carrie is backing Jenrick. Who would put Boris back on the parliamentary candidates list I
    suspect if he did consider a return to frontline politics
    Carrie has - how shall we put it? - dubious judgement when it comes to men :wink:
    I don't know about that. She's done very well out of her relationship with the grifter in chief.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited October 3

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    We don’t talk about this enough. The global collapse in fertility. It will soon have real impact on politics, everywhere

    https://x.com/birthgauge/status/1832726932552572974?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    There are some really startling stats in there

    Live births in Chile fell from 90,000 to 70,000 in one half year. A 22% fall. Chile’s Total Fertility Rate is 0.88 - less than one child per woman. Chile is also the richest, most developed nation in S America. But it is running out of Chileans

    East Asia is a horror show of course. Korea is dying. China is not far behind. I had no idea Thailand is similar - when you go there you see kids everywhere but that’s probably because I mainly go to youthful Bangkok

    Schools worldwide will start closing down

    Is this a problem, in the wider view of things? If so, why?

    (It is a problem from a perpetual-growth viewpoint that our politicians and economists like. But from the viewpoint of the future of mankind?)
    It's a problem whenever you have TFR significantly above or below 2.1 (assuming no migration), because you end up with a age distribution with peaks and troughs.

    It wouldn't so matter so much at 1.9, 1.8, but when you're down at 1.3 like Scotland... It also depends on why. If it's because women (and indeed men) have more opportunities to work, travel and study, that's great. If it's because housing is so expensive that young couples don't feel they can't afford to have kids (or at least until you run into fertility issues) - terrible.

    Housing is a big problem, but I suspect the former reason is much more important than we like to admit.
    Yep. And this is definitely true for east Asia. Korea seems to have a particularly toxic mix of patriarchal society and highly educated women who rebel against this and go on fertility-strike
    And housing like rabbit hutches doesn't help.
    Also, can the family live easily and well on one salary?

    The reaction to this question is always interesting, in the UK.
    It's just about possible but it does mean I'm retiring at 67 rather than 10 years earlier...

    Equally to show how had it is, I don't have an expensive house (the better options are in way worse locations) and I earn well over the average wage..
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    FF43 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW: Voters now say Tories would be better at managing the economy, first CON lead since mid-2022.

    🟦 CON 27% (+6)
    🟥 LAB 26% (-6)

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 30 Sep (+/- vs 22 July)
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841508920323457249

    [Snip]

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%

    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    I don't take comfort in Charlatan-in-Chief being the most popular leader right now.
    The Starmer-Corbyn crossover will be funny though...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521
    Cookie said:

    I find this subject totally fascinating.

    My headline view is that the very big problems of demographic decline are rather smaller than the very big problems of untramelled demographic growth. So on a global scale there's that to be cheery about. But there's no doubt they are big problems.
    The wikipedia page on Chinese demographics has a little animation of their projected age/sex pyramid, which is quite startling.


    The interesting thing is that demographic decline seems to happen everywhere in the developed or almost-developed world, regardless of local culture and politics. It's easy to blame housing costs, and housing costs are certainly a problem, but globally, poverty clearly doesn't stop people having children - all the really high birth rates are in really poor places. It's easy to blame the choices people make, but this seems to hold true across all cultures - and in any case, I think it's the case that people continue to want children in the same numbers they always did. The number of childless women who get to their mid-40s and wish they'd had children is about 90% of the number of childless women who get to their mid-40s. The number of people who wish they'd had more children is almost infinitely higher than the proportion who wish they'd had fewer.

    There are all sorts of reasons why children don't happen, but my theory is that they have a common root: across all developed and almost-developed societies, there are many more old people than there used to be, and the more old people you have, the more resources you have to put into looking after that generation, so the less you have for the next generation. Low birth rates are to a large extent a feature of high birth rates a generation or two ago: the steeper the population growth a generation or two ago (e.g. East Asia), the steeper the decline now.
    This doesn't hold for sub-Saharan Africa because so few people make it to old age. But when they start doing so, we'll see the same pattern there.

    Even in Africa, birthrates are falling very rapidly. I'd say that a very big driver of high birthrates was (as you say) few people surviving to old age, but also very high infant mortality, and high rates of deaths in childbirth. Child mortality rates are now much lower, everywhere, as are deaths in childbirth. Famine is also much less common too, and children always suffer the worst in famines.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    You say that, but birth rates in the Baltic states are even lower than in Russia. Heading south at a remarkable clip - soon you’ll be below 1 child per woman, like Taiwan or Macao

    Why are the Balts disappearing?
    What's the methodology on that? Are women actually having fewer births there per person, or is it that the birth-per-unit-population is unusually low? Because the latter could well be down to large-scale economic migration among younger adults. Both will have the same effect on population change but the reason matters too.
    A fair point and I have no immediate answer

    I do know that Poland has stopped exporting so many people but it still has horrendous demographics - some of the worst in Europe. Forecast TFR of 1.10
    Most of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union saw an apparent collapse in birth rates when the wall came down.

    A chap I worked with, while working on the finances of the ex-Soviet oil industry, found a fun example of how to tell lies with statistics. His idea of fun was figures - got talking to some people in the local medical care system in the 'stans. It turned out that under the Soviet regime, birth rate was a Target. The system was obsessed with having enough soldiers in the next generation - shades of WWII etc. So people lied, as they lied with all the other figures.

    It seemed that because of a lack of birth control (medicine), abortion was high in the good old USSR. So the management types counted pregnancies - before the abortions! - in their returns to Moscow as "children on the way".

    Makes you wonder how many countries that was true for.
    Peter Zeihan has done an informative series on demographics - typically doom-laden but I don't think unreasonably so. Based on what Zeihan says, the number of abortions in the old Soviet Union (and also, I believe, in Serbia) is reputed to be absolutely horrific. It's the most common form of contraception. Having 7+ abortions in your lifetime is not uncommon (which presumably does nothing for your ability to conceive as/when you choose to do so).
    That said, I can't find the stats to back this up, and Wikipedia gives some very different stats.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Just on Egypt, the number, as noted, of replacement is high but declining. However, Egypt also suffers from not having nearly enough food and has been hit especially hard by the food export/import impact of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dopermean said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    That photo of Boris looks as though he's borrowed one of Fabricant's wigs.

    BBC cancels Boris Johnson interview after Laura Kuenssberg message gaffe
    Briefing notes mistakenly being sent to ex-PM meant it was ‘not right for the interview to go ahead’, says presenter
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/03/bbc-cancels-boris-johnson-interview-laura-kuenssberg-briefing-notes

    Poor Laura. Who hasn't accidentally cced the whole team on an email meant for just one person and then realised with horror that they won't be able to recall before at least one has read it.
    Why can't they re-arrange the interview with someone else from BBC.

    How about Mishal Husian?

    The problem is lack of research time if you want questions on topics that Boris doesn't have stock replies for.

    I find it hilarious that Bozo is losing 30 minutes / 1 hour of TV time during which he would remind people he existed and has a book to sell.
    And to remind Tory MPs what they've lost as they vote on the fantastic four.
    Carrie is backing Jenrick. Who would put Boris back on the parliamentary candidates list I
    suspect if he did consider a return to frontline politics
    Carrie has - how shall we put it? - dubious judgement when it comes to men :wink:
    I don't know about that. She's done very well out of her relationship with the grifter in chief.
    Hang on, we're not supposed to be discussing any rumours about Starmer on here! :wink:
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916
    Andrew Bailey now creating a hostage to fortune by saying rates could come down quickly.

    If we have an Israel-Iran war, they’re likely not coming down at all!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    There are 220 million Nigerians.

    With 5.24 births per woman.

    The 22nd Century belongs to Nigeria.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I wonder if Russia-Ukraine is - amongst other things - the first of The Fertility Wars. Russia has really bad demographics. It only sustains its overall population stats by importing people from ex-Soviet central Asian states. But they are very different from the ideal white, “Christian” Slav that, I imagine, Putin has in mind when he thinks of “a Russian”

    However Ukrainians do fit this template. By absorbing much or all of Ukraine Putin solves Russia’s demographic problems, and makes it more Slavic, at least for the medium term

    The Ukrainians would, quite literally, rather die.

    Putin has failed in his war aims, and things over time will only get worse for him, even if he were somehow to eke out some kind of "victory" in the short/medium term. It is more likely that Ukrainian tanks will end up in Rostov than Russian ones in Lviv. As for Russian demographics, Putin already knows he is staring disaster in the face. Hi repressive attempts to increase the birth rate are almost laughable.
    You say that, but birth rates in the Baltic states are even lower than in Russia. Heading south at a remarkable clip - soon you’ll be below 1 child per woman, like Taiwan or Macao

    Why are the Balts disappearing?
    What's the methodology on that? Are women actually having fewer births there per person, or is it that the birth-per-unit-population is unusually low? Because the latter could well be down to large-scale economic migration among younger adults. Both will have the same effect on population change but the reason matters too.
    The TFR is low-ish in the Baltics - roughly the same as ours. So if the birth rate is exceptionally low, that's due to emigration, not fertility rates.

    There is probably a bit of interaction between the two if women who are more likely to have children are more likely to move abroad. Or the opposite.
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