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Trump as Corbyn, Biden as May, and Harris as Johnson? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,049
edited 1:13PM in General
Trump as Corbyn, Biden as May, and Harris as Johnson? – politicalbetting.com

Reminds me of the 2019 polling before and after Tories replaced May with Johnson https://t.co/2U96GseW5M

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    I mean the shape is broadly the same, but the y-axis was scaled by a factor of 5-10x in the earlier UK case.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    edited 1:18PM
    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate

    Stronger than Harris it would seem.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289
    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,567
    Or going back a bit, Thatcher/Major/Kinnock in 1990.

    Maybe that's the answer to the "how to get unpopular but necessary stuff done" conundrum. Let a decent old codger on the way out anyway do the grunt work, replace them with someone smiley and new a bit before the election.

    If it happens here in 2028 or so (Lou Haigh maybe?) bagsy the modesty rights.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,871
    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because they had compromised Hezbollah and its leadership and knew where they were.

    For Hamas, they didn't/haven't or if they did know their location, Hama leaders were hiding in a hotel in Dubai which is less easy to carpet bomb (lots of western citizens as collateral damage).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050

    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate

    Stronger than Harris it would seem.
    At the moment Harris is polling better than Hillary 2016 in swing states but worse than Biden 2020, so it looks very close
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    I can also see how Israel would find it much easier to get 'assets' in Lebanon than Gaza. Hasn't the UK military been doing some training there?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,708
    Fpt:
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    'The wife of Tory leadership frontrunner Robert Jenrick advised oligarchs sanctioned in the wake of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we can reveal.'

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-favourite-robert-jenricks-33774378

    I'm liking him more and more. Hopefully he will lead a Government that attracts wealth, rather than repels it.
    Some policy from Jenrick too 'We need to free British workers from the reams of bureaucracy that get in the way.

    There is no reason for small businesses or sole traders to be saddled with the same regulation as big corporations with huge back-office teams.

    We need a tax system that rewards risk-takers, not punishes them. We should take advantage of our Brexit freedoms and change the VAT thresholds so that small businesses can keep and invest more of the money they make.

    We should increase the thresholds to £100,000, as recommended by the Federation of Small Businesses, which would allow tens of thousands of businesses to have an additional untaxed turnover of £10,000.

    That would allow them to hire more staff and invest in equipment that boosts our productivity.

    The state does have an important role to play in all of this. But we need a small state that works, not a big state that fails.

    So instead of the taxpayer subsidising low-value degrees, we should be funding the real skills of the future.

    That’s why I am calling to redirect funding away from the worst performing 10 per cent of universities towards the biggest expansion in technical colleges and apprenticeships in a generation.

    We should never again be in the position where we are reliant on foreign labour for brickies, plumbers and welders that help make this country what it is.

    These are important and well-paid jobs that Brits should be doing.

    And we need an energy policy that prioritises reliably cheap energy. Since 2000 our electricity prices have trebled. That has crippled British industry and tipped many businesses over the edge.

    It means a fundamentally different energy policy where we are pragmatic about reaching net zero. There are no prizes for reaching net zero first.

    I refuse to pursue net zero off the backs of working people. Instead of throwing more money at expensive renewables, we need a baseload of reliable energy from nuclear and gas that keeps bills lower for businesses and consumers.'
    And none of it is anything but the truth.

    And I can't think of anyone sensible, let alone Conservative, who could disagree.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    That’s the worst thing ever said about Harris, and I’m including everything Trump has said about her in my assessment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553

    That’s the worst thing ever said about Harris, and I’m including everything Trump has said about her in my assessment.

    So you're saying I am worse than Donald Trump?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256

    That’s the worst thing ever said about Harris, and I’m including everything Trump has said about her in my assessment.

    So you're saying I am worse than Donald Trump?
    Readers can draw their own conclusion.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate

    Stronger than Harris it would seem.
    At the moment Harris is polling better than Hillary 2016 in swing states but worse than Biden 2020, so it looks very close
    The Democrats plainly had multiple governors who were better candidates than Harris. If she loses they should hang their heads in shame at their decision to sit it out and wait for a better opportunity whilst Trump seeks to bring down the great republic.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,354
    Does anyone know when the Tory leadership contenders have to pay the £50K to perform at the Conference and the extra £150K to be put to the membership? Are they already committed?

    These are large sums. It wouldn't surprise me if one or more contenders drop out to avoid the bill if they are fairly sure that they are going to lose.

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215

    Fpt:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    'The wife of Tory leadership frontrunner Robert Jenrick advised oligarchs sanctioned in the wake of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we can reveal.'

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-favourite-robert-jenricks-33774378

    I'm liking him more and more. Hopefully he will lead a Government that attracts wealth, rather than repels it.
    Some policy from Jenrick too 'We need to free British workers from the reams of bureaucracy that get in the way.

    There is no reason for small businesses or sole traders to be saddled with the same regulation as big corporations with huge back-office teams.

    We need a tax system that rewards risk-takers, not punishes them. We should take advantage of our Brexit freedoms and change the VAT thresholds so that small businesses can keep and invest more of the money they make.

    We should increase the thresholds to £100,000, as recommended by the Federation of Small Businesses, which would allow tens of thousands of businesses to have an additional untaxed turnover of £10,000.

    That would allow them to hire more staff and invest in equipment that boosts our productivity.

    The state does have an important role to play in all of this. But we need a small state that works, not a big state that fails.

    So instead of the taxpayer subsidising low-value degrees, we should be funding the real skills of the future.

    That’s why I am calling to redirect funding away from the worst performing 10 per cent of universities towards the biggest expansion in technical colleges and apprenticeships in a generation.

    We should never again be in the position where we are reliant on foreign labour for brickies, plumbers and welders that help make this country what it is.

    These are important and well-paid jobs that Brits should be doing.

    And we need an energy policy that prioritises reliably cheap energy. Since 2000 our electricity prices have trebled. That has crippled British industry and tipped many businesses over the edge.

    It means a fundamentally different energy policy where we are pragmatic about reaching net zero. There are no prizes for reaching net zero first.

    I refuse to pursue net zero off the backs of working people. Instead of throwing more money at expensive renewables, we need a baseload of reliable energy from nuclear and gas that keeps bills lower for businesses and consumers.'
    And none of it is anything but the truth.

    And I can't think of anyone sensible, let alone Conservative, who could disagree.
    There is an incoherance about the VAT policy.
    It is unlikely that a company under the VAT threshold could employ anyone in the first place- an extra 10k turnover is not going to put them in a position to 'hire more staff'.
    Isn't the problem that the VAT threshold disincentivises expansion? - IE you can't employ anyone as it will take you over the VAT threshold thus destroying your competitiveness as your prices go up 20%.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    Turns out Hezbollah’s internal security had more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,781
    The comparison is OK, so far as it goes.
    But note Biden’s hitherto underwater approval rating just turned positive.

    That’s exactly not May, just ahead of the 2019 election.
    Different narrative.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553

    Turns out Hezbollah’s internal security had more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

    I wonder if Mossad have their own Stakeknife inside Hezbollah.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,781
    Says guy still in the trap.

    Trump: All the stupid people said I fell into her trap. They said I fell into her trap. She can’t set a mental trap. I didn’t fall into her trap. There is no trap. I didn’t fall into her trap
    https://x.com/KamalaHQ/status/1840121367670251818
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,708
    darkage said:

    Fpt:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    'The wife of Tory leadership frontrunner Robert Jenrick advised oligarchs sanctioned in the wake of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we can reveal.'

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-favourite-robert-jenricks-33774378

    I'm liking him more and more. Hopefully he will lead a Government that attracts wealth, rather than repels it.
    Some policy from Jenrick too 'We need to free British workers from the reams of bureaucracy that get in the way.

    There is no reason for small businesses or sole traders to be saddled with the same regulation as big corporations with huge back-office teams.

    We need a tax system that rewards risk-takers, not punishes them. We should take advantage of our Brexit freedoms and change the VAT thresholds so that small businesses can keep and invest more of the money they make.

    We should increase the thresholds to £100,000, as recommended by the Federation of Small Businesses, which would allow tens of thousands of businesses to have an additional untaxed turnover of £10,000.

    That would allow them to hire more staff and invest in equipment that boosts our productivity.

    The state does have an important role to play in all of this. But we need a small state that works, not a big state that fails.

    So instead of the taxpayer subsidising low-value degrees, we should be funding the real skills of the future.

    That’s why I am calling to redirect funding away from the worst performing 10 per cent of universities towards the biggest expansion in technical colleges and apprenticeships in a generation.

    We should never again be in the position where we are reliant on foreign labour for brickies, plumbers and welders that help make this country what it is.

    These are important and well-paid jobs that Brits should be doing.

    And we need an energy policy that prioritises reliably cheap energy. Since 2000 our electricity prices have trebled. That has crippled British industry and tipped many businesses over the edge.

    It means a fundamentally different energy policy where we are pragmatic about reaching net zero. There are no prizes for reaching net zero first.

    I refuse to pursue net zero off the backs of working people. Instead of throwing more money at expensive renewables, we need a baseload of reliable energy from nuclear and gas that keeps bills lower for businesses and consumers.'
    And none of it is anything but the truth.

    And I can't think of anyone sensible, let alone Conservative, who could disagree.
    There is an incoherance about the VAT policy.
    It is unlikely that a company under the VAT threshold could employ anyone in the first place- an extra 10k turnover is not going to put them in a position to 'hire more staff'.
    Isn't the problem that the VAT threshold disincentivises expansion? - IE you can't employ anyone as it will take you over the VAT threshold thus destroying your competitiveness as your prices go up 20%.

    For a small B&B, being allowed to earn an extra £10,000 before VAT kicked in would certainly result in less closure (or informal cash-in-hand bookings) and could certainly result in more staff being needed to clean the rooms and prepare the breakfasts. That's just one example.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

    Short term rubbish on both parts. Firstly, Rishi will do fine in opposing the budget. He is good at that sort of thing and can think on his feet about it. And, ultimately, who the hell cares what the Tories think right now anyway?

    Secondly, I really don't see the new Tory leader getting much impact whenever he or she is announced. And that is ok because we are a very long way from any future election and there will be years to make that impression. Someone who is not so stupid as to indicate that they would prefer Trump in the run up to the US election or the inevitable litigation wars that will follow it would be a bonus though. Trump's unpopularity in the UK makes him look like the King of New York. If the new leader really thinks that they might want to keep it to themselves.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    As strategic blunders go Hamas attacking Israel on October 7th is up there with the Empire of Japan attacking the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbour to keep the Yanks out of the war or Carthage attacking Rome in the Second Punic War.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    DavidL said:

    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

    Short term rubbish on both parts. Firstly, Rishi will do fine in opposing the budget. He is good at that sort of thing and can think on his feet about it. And, ultimately, who the hell cares what the Tories think right now anyway?

    Secondly, I really don't see the new Tory leader getting much impact whenever he or she is announced. And that is ok because we are a very long way from any future election and there will be years to make that impression. Someone who is not so stupid as to indicate that they would prefer Trump in the run up to the US election or the inevitable litigation wars that will follow it would be a bonus though. Trump's unpopularity in the UK makes him look like the King of New York. If the new leader really thinks that they might want to keep it to themselves.
    Spare a thought about me.

    I am not sure I have the energy to cover the Tory leadership result and the American election in the space of three days.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
    It already was anyway largely, the West Bank however was perfectly liveable in
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,367
    Why do people think most of the attempts to seriously dent Trump's support haven't worked?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    edited 1:49PM
    DavidL said:

    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

    Short term rubbish on both parts. Firstly, Rishi will do fine in opposing the budget. He is good at that sort of thing and can think on his feet about it. And, ultimately, who the hell cares what the Tories think right now anyway?

    Secondly, I really don't see the new Tory leader getting much impact whenever he or she is announced. And that is ok because we are a very long way from any future election and there will be years to make that impression. Someone who is not so stupid as to indicate that they would prefer Trump in the run up to the US election or the inevitable litigation wars that will follow it would be a bonus though. Trump's unpopularity in the UK makes him look like the King of New York. If the new leader really thinks that they might want to keep it to themselves.
    Not all UK voters hate Trump, polls show most Reform voters back Trump over Harris for instance
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,478

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,507

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I can think of another politician who said Israel was justified in shutting off water and power to Gaza to aid freeing the hostages. However I believe he now says he ‘misspoke’.
  • CosmicCosmic Posts: 31
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate

    Stronger than Harris it would seem.
    At the moment Harris is polling better than Hillary 2016 in swing states but worse than Biden 2020, so it looks very close
    Is that better than opinion polls Hillary or better than her actual results?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,708
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

    Short term rubbish on both parts. Firstly, Rishi will do fine in opposing the budget. He is good at that sort of thing and can think on his feet about it. And, ultimately, who the hell cares what the Tories think right now anyway?

    Secondly, I really don't see the new Tory leader getting much impact whenever he or she is announced. And that is ok because we are a very long way from any future election and there will be years to make that impression. Someone who is not so stupid as to indicate that they would prefer Trump in the run up to the US election or the inevitable litigation wars that will follow it would be a bonus though. Trump's unpopularity in the UK makes him look like the King of New York. If the new leader really thinks that they might want to keep it to themselves.
    Not all UK voters hate Trump, polls show most Reform voters back Trump over Harris for instance
    Jenrick seems to have a relatively neutral stance on Trump. I'd be surprised if all the Tory candidates aren't the same - it would seem extremely foolish to express a firm preference in either direction.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
    It already was anyway largely, the West Bank however was perfectly liveable in
    I don’t think the Israelis care any more. After October 7 they want to expel all Palestinians because they see them as an existential threat to Jews (and the October 7 attackers made it very clear they wanted to kill every Jew they encountered)

    The logic is pretty brutal if you’re an Israeli. Israel can only continue if “Palestine” is extinguished. Hence Gaza. At the same time Israel is now securing its northern border with Lebanon and maybe even taking out the Iranian leadership: might as well get it all done in one go

    This all makes perfect sense IF your overwhelming concern is the survival of Israel as a Jewish ethno-state. It is also horrendously cruel
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,708
    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    Why are you being so dramatic about it - she has one opinion that you don't agree with and she is 'unfit to be leader'? Do you expect to agree with every opinion?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    The threat to Israel from Gaza is largely due to the support of Iran. A different government in Iran would largely solve the issue? Prior to 7 October lots of Gazans were going into Israel on a daily basis and we had the Abraham Accords. Your tendency to dystopia might be getting the better of you again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    They are re-broadcasting it on the BBC on October 9. I shall not be watching for a 2nd time
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    edited 1:59PM
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
    It already was anyway largely, the West Bank however was perfectly liveable in
    I don’t think the Israelis care any more. After October 7 they want to expel all Palestinians because they see them as an existential threat to Jews (and the October 7 attackers made it very clear they wanted to kill every Jew they encountered)

    The logic is pretty brutal if you’re an Israeli. Israel can only continue if “Palestine” is extinguished. Hence Gaza. At the same time Israel is now securing its northern border with Lebanon and maybe even taking out the Iranian leadership: might as well get it all done in one go

    This all makes perfect sense IF your overwhelming concern is the survival of Israel as a Jewish ethno-state. It is also horrendously cruel
    It is also disastrous, if they kill lots of Palestinians, many of them innocent of any terrorist links and add lots of innocent Lebanese to the death toll too they will be creating generations of pro Hamas and pro Hezbollah terrorists who weren't there before.

    We also need to remember 30% of the population of Lebanon are Christian and 6% of Palestinians are Christian too, they should be naturally pro Israel but won't be if all their churches are bombed and their families driven from their homes
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,481
    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    Only two audiences matter at the moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    Cosmic said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate

    Stronger than Harris it would seem.
    At the moment Harris is polling better than Hillary 2016 in swing states but worse than Biden 2020, so it looks very close
    Is that better than opinion polls Hillary or better than her actual results?
    Better in swing states polls than Hillary, worse in national polls
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,553
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    They are re-broadcasting it on the BBC on October 9. I shall not be watching for a 2nd time
    You snowflakes get triggered so easily.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480
    A lot of good news coming from the Middle East at the minute it seems.

    Hopefully Israel can continue to press its advantage and defeat Hezbollah and Hamas and then we might finally be able to break the cycle of violence and have peace.

    If the evil Iranian regime falls too, all the better.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    The threat to Israel from Gaza is largely due to the support of Iran. A different government in Iran would largely solve the issue? Prior to 7 October lots of Gazans were going into Israel on a daily basis and we had the Abraham Accords. Your tendency to dystopia might be getting the better of you again.
    “Prior to October 7” is like saying “prior to Hiroshima” or “prior to the Battle of Hastings”

    October 7 was an inflection point. The world changed - certainly for Israel and sadly for many many innocent Palestinians

    To be clear I’m not trying to moralise either way. I’m trying to calmly analyse what Israel is doing and why. And they seem to be intent on destroying Gaza forever
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

    Short term rubbish on both parts. Firstly, Rishi will do fine in opposing the budget. He is good at that sort of thing and can think on his feet about it. And, ultimately, who the hell cares what the Tories think right now anyway?

    Secondly, I really don't see the new Tory leader getting much impact whenever he or she is announced. And that is ok because we are a very long way from any future election and there will be years to make that impression. Someone who is not so stupid as to indicate that they would prefer Trump in the run up to the US election or the inevitable litigation wars that will follow it would be a bonus though. Trump's unpopularity in the UK makes him look like the King of New York. If the new leader really thinks that they might want to keep it to themselves.
    Spare a thought about me.

    I am not sure I have the energy to cover the Tory leadership result and the American election in the space of three days.
    Given the closeness of so many of the States and the inevitable legal disputes I suspect that it may be at least a week before we have a declared result in the US. I hope i am wrong but I fear that this could make 2000 look like a dry run.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
    It already was anyway largely, the West Bank however was perfectly liveable in
    I don’t think the Israelis care any more. After October 7 they want to expel all Palestinians because they see them as an existential threat to Jews (and the October 7 attackers made it very clear they wanted to kill every Jew they encountered)

    The logic is pretty brutal if you’re an Israeli. Israel can only continue if “Palestine” is extinguished. Hence Gaza. At the same time Israel is now securing its northern border with Lebanon and maybe even taking out the Iranian leadership: might as well get it all done in one go

    This all makes perfect sense IF your overwhelming concern is the survival of Israel as a Jewish ethno-state. It is also horrendously cruel
    It is also disastrous, if they kill lots of Palestinians, many of them innocent of any terrorist links and add lots of innocent Lebanese to the death toll too they will be creating generations of pro Hamas and pro Hezbollah terrorists who weren't there before.

    We also need to remember 30% of the population of Lebanon are Christian and 6% of Palestinians are Christian too, they should be naturally pro Israel but won't be if all their churches are bombed and their families driven from their homes
    Israel has already crunched the numbers and decided: so be it
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,727
    Andy_JS said:

    Why do people think most of the attempts to seriously dent Trump's support haven't worked?

    Think Trump`s character flaws are built into the polls now. There is nothing `too shocking` about him that`s going to move the polls. May keep the Democrat turnout up though!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    edited 2:04PM

    A lot of good news coming from the Middle East at the minute it seems.

    Hopefully Israel can continue to press its advantage and defeat Hezbollah and Hamas and then we might finally be able to break the cycle of violence and have peace.

    If the evil Iranian regime falls too, all the better.

    They aren't going to defeat Hezbollah and Hamas if they bomb Lebanon and the West Bank and Gaza to smithereens, they will end up just creating even more terrorists.

    They should be focused on freeing the hostages by force with special forces and then working for a firm 2 state solution in Israel and Palestine and supporting reformers in Iran
  • FossFoss Posts: 899

    Foss said:

    Foss said:

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Labour to decriminalise non payment of the license fee.

    Apparently doing it for ‘women’

    Next step abolish the license fee and let the BBC raise its own funds rather than extorting it from the public.

    https://x.com/paullewismoney/status/1840265644652003486?s=61

    When you are a public service broadcaster, then being funded by the public is not such a bad idea. A bit like that way we fund schools and hospitals, extorting all that cash out of the people who never use them.

    There are reasons why the taxpayer isn't on the line for BBC funding - some good, some less so - and so some other way of 'extorting' the public has been found.

    Once you are a subscription model, you are owned politically by those who choose to subscribe. (Nothing wrong with that - Speccie, NS, Economist all use that model). But that isn't right for 'public service broadcasting.

    I almost never watch telly but have a licence, but BBC Radio/Sounds (R4, R3, World Service, R5, News) is worth way more than I pay.
    Last year the average Brit watched about 46 minutes of BBC content a day (inc catchup), down from about 70 minutes in 2016. Once that gets below below a certain level - perhaps 20 or 10 minutes a day - forced funding of it really does look unviable.
    Many countries have television licences. They are not unique to Britain or the BBC.
    If few end up watching it then it’s just overpaid make-work for people who couldn’t hack it in the regular market.
    Apparently, there’s a faction in the BBC that wants to move to an ISP tax. X per Gb of data provided in the U.K.
    And I bet they fancy a couple of unicorns as well…
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,478

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    Leon's reaction to the sun rising is always fairly spectacular. He seems almost surprised by it. Every day... ;)
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    They won’t occupy. They will just make Gaza an unliveable wasteland
    It already was anyway largely, the West Bank however was perfectly liveable in
    I don’t think the Israelis care any more. After October 7 they want to expel all Palestinians because they see them as an existential threat to Jews (and the October 7 attackers made it very clear they wanted to kill every Jew they encountered)

    The logic is pretty brutal if you’re an Israeli. Israel can only continue if “Palestine” is extinguished. Hence Gaza. At the same time Israel is now securing its northern border with Lebanon and maybe even taking out the Iranian leadership: might as well get it all done in one go

    This all makes perfect sense IF your overwhelming concern is the survival of Israel as a Jewish ethno-state. It is also horrendously cruel
    It is also disastrous, if they kill lots of Palestinians, many of them innocent of any terrorist links and add lots of innocent Lebanese to the death toll too they will be creating generations of pro Hamas and pro Hezbollah terrorists who weren't there before.

    We also need to remember 30% of the population of Lebanon are Christian and 6% of Palestinians are Christian too, they should be naturally pro Israel but won't be if all their churches are bombed and their families driven from their homes
    Cut the crap, as long as Hamas and Hezbollah exist there will always be more people joining Hamas and Hezbollah.

    As long as they exist, those regions will be blockaded and impoverished and as long as people are impoverished the only way out of poverty or to have any hope is to unfortunately join with Hamas and Hezbollah respectively.

    The only way to end the cycle of violence is to metaphorically stuff people's faces with gold, the Marshall Plan works, but the prerequisite of that even being an option is to end the threat from Hamas and Hezbollah.

    Not reduce it, not a temporary ceasefire, but to end the threat by destroying those organisations completely.

    If that is done the cycle of violence can end, but if there's a ceasefire then it is inevitable that the fighting will resume as without a lasting peace, without development, without opportunities people will see no alternative but to continue the violence.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,727

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet Biden 2020 still won more swing states and had a bigger national poll lead over Trump than Harris has now. Biden with dementia was his problem, a fully fit Biden would still have been the Democrats strongest candidate

    Stronger than Harris it would seem.
    At the moment Harris is polling better than Hillary 2016 in swing states but worse than Biden 2020, so it looks very close
    The Democrats plainly had multiple governors who were better candidates than Harris. If she loses they should hang their heads in shame at their decision to sit it out and wait for a better opportunity whilst Trump seeks to bring down the great republic.
    Trump said in one his speeches that the Democrats went for the politically correct option. Think he meant if the Democrats sidelined Kamala, there would have been questions whether it was because of her race.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555

    A lot of good news coming from the Middle East at the minute it seems.

    Hopefully Israel can continue to press its advantage and defeat Hezbollah and Hamas and then we might finally be able to break the cycle of violence and have peace.

    If the evil Iranian regime falls too, all the better.

    The more I learn about the situation the clearer it seems than Iran is not the cheerleader it is the conductor.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,349
    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,289

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    Ethnic cleansing also ends historic conflicts. Cf Turkey/Greece

    This is what Israel is pursuing. They just can’t say it
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    Leon's reaction to the sun rising is always fairly spectacular. He seems almost surprised by it. Every day... ;)
    To be fair, if you take a certain amount of drugs and alcohol then seeing another sunrise might be a relief.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,162

    Two Tory leadership candidates, Robert Jenrick and Tom Tugendhat, have publicly called for the party to cut short the contest, a move that is opposed by rival Kemi Badenoch.

    Senior Conservatives were reported to be in talks about bringing forward the announcement by a week, according to the Mail, but the party said on Sunday that there are currently no plans to change the date, despite calls from candidates.

    The contest is scheduled to run until 2 November, which will mean no Tory leader is in place before the 30 October budget – which the leader of the opposition responds to in parliament. Rishi Sunak, the former prime minister, will have to respond to Rachel Reeves under the current timing. He would then step down as leader three days later.

    There is also disquiet that the result of the Tory leadership on Saturday 2 November will be hugely overshadowed by the final days of the US election, which is the following Tuesday.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/29/jenrick-and-tugendhat-call-for-tories-to-cut-leadership-contest-short?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

    I think that's a good idea.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    Only two audiences matter at the moment.
    Yes though the first should at least be conscious that wider support is needed.

    How much does Starmer need to declare as a benefit in kind for the Tory Conference? It must run to millions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
    Or more women stay at home and increased maternity pay and leave?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,567

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    Leon's reaction to the sun rising is always fairly spectacular. He seems almost surprised by it. Every day... ;)
    To be fair, if you take a certain amount of drugs and alcohol then seeing another sunrise might be a relief.
    Though in my much more limited experience, the following sunset is a lot more welcome than the sunrise.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,162
    darkage said:

    Fpt:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    'The wife of Tory leadership frontrunner Robert Jenrick advised oligarchs sanctioned in the wake of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we can reveal.'

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-favourite-robert-jenricks-33774378

    I'm liking him more and more. Hopefully he will lead a Government that attracts wealth, rather than repels it.
    Some policy from Jenrick too 'We need to free British workers from the reams of bureaucracy that get in the way.

    There is no reason for small businesses or sole traders to be saddled with the same regulation as big corporations with huge back-office teams.

    We need a tax system that rewards risk-takers, not punishes them. We should take advantage of our Brexit freedoms and change the VAT thresholds so that small businesses can keep and invest more of the money they make.

    We should increase the thresholds to £100,000, as recommended by the Federation of Small Businesses, which would allow tens of thousands of businesses to have an additional untaxed turnover of £10,000.

    That would allow them to hire more staff and invest in equipment that boosts our productivity.

    The state does have an important role to play in all of this. But we need a small state that works, not a big state that fails.

    So instead of the taxpayer subsidising low-value degrees, we should be funding the real skills of the future.

    That’s why I am calling to redirect funding away from the worst performing 10 per cent of universities towards the biggest expansion in technical colleges and apprenticeships in a generation.

    We should never again be in the position where we are reliant on foreign labour for brickies, plumbers and welders that help make this country what it is.

    These are important and well-paid jobs that Brits should be doing.

    And we need an energy policy that prioritises reliably cheap energy. Since 2000 our electricity prices have trebled. That has crippled British industry and tipped many businesses over the edge.

    It means a fundamentally different energy policy where we are pragmatic about reaching net zero. There are no prizes for reaching net zero first.

    I refuse to pursue net zero off the backs of working people. Instead of throwing more money at expensive renewables, we need a baseload of reliable energy from nuclear and gas that keeps bills lower for businesses and consumers.'
    And none of it is anything but the truth.

    And I can't think of anyone sensible, let alone Conservative, who could disagree.
    There is an incoherance about the VAT policy.
    It is unlikely that a company under the VAT threshold could employ anyone in the first place- an extra 10k turnover is not going to put them in a position to 'hire more staff'.
    Isn't the problem that the VAT threshold disincentivises expansion? - IE you can't employ anyone as it will take you over the VAT threshold thus destroying your competitiveness as your prices go up 20%.

    You're saying that Labour makes catastrophic choices when it comes to VAT policy?

    Say it isn't so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    The Nazis and Japanese led a nation state, they weren't terrorists. Even if we had invaded Ireland and occupied Dublin we still would not have defeated the IRA.

    The Tamils were internal terrorists within Sri Lanka
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,781

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    Leon's reaction to the sun rising is always fairly spectacular. He seems almost surprised by it. Every day... ;)
    TBF, with our weather…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,781
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    Ethnic cleansing also ends historic conflicts. Cf Turkey/Greece

    This is what Israel is pursuing. They just can’t say it
    This is arguably more like Turkey/Armenia.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    The threat to Israel from Gaza is largely due to the support of Iran. A different government in Iran would largely solve the issue? Prior to 7 October lots of Gazans were going into Israel on a daily basis and we had the Abraham Accords. Your tendency to dystopia might be getting the better of you again.
    “Prior to October 7” is like saying “prior to Hiroshima” or “prior to the Battle of Hastings”

    October 7 was an inflection point. The world changed - certainly for Israel and sadly for many many innocent Palestinians

    To be clear I’m not trying to moralise either way. I’m trying to calmly analyse what Israel is doing and why. And they seem to be intent on destroying Gaza forever
    I think we have to remember that there is not a single Israel pursuing a single coherent policy. There are many different Israelis with lots of different motivations.

    There are those intent on pursuing the elimination or expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank as a resolution to the conflict. But I don't think that's Netanyahu's motivation. Once the last Palestinian dies or is expelled from Gaza, and the war against Hamas that started last October ends, he faces some difficult legal issues. The last thing he wants is a resolution to the issue. On the contrary, he needs to prolong the conflict for as long as possible.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    The Nazis and Japanese led a nation state, they weren't terrorists. Even if we had invaded Ireland and occupied Dublin we still would not have defeated the IRA.

    The Tamils were internal terrorists within Sri Lanka
    Hamas and Hezbollah are both quasi-leaders of a nation state too, running effectively Gaza and Lebanon respectively de facto if not de jure.

    Defeating terrorists militarily by pursuing them aggressively until they surrender unconditionally has happened many times, the idea it can't happen is a complete fallacy that is belied by history.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    Ethnic cleansing also ends historic conflicts. Cf Turkey/Greece

    This is what Israel is pursuing. They just can’t say it
    Ethnic cleansing PLUS employment opportunities for those cleansed. Someone yesterday made the point about the significant ethnic cleansing in Central Europe in the 1940’s. That resulted in work for the ‘cleansed’ and consequently not, yet anyway, in riots.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,596
    Unlike yesterday, I noticed this morning that the incoming tide is being overwhelmed by the amount of water coming down the river from the Carolinas, and it's flowing strongly towards the sea. And water levels are rising. Sure enough, there's now a flood warning for here.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,763
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
    Or more women stay at home and increased maternity pay and leave?
    Why women maybe more men should stay at home....you don't seem to do anything useful except being a councillor....maybe your wife should be the breadwinner and you can do the hoovering
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,367
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
    Or less migration.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,100
    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The best fix for larger family sizes is to sort the housing market, so buying a decent house doesn't require both parents to be out at work and the child dumped in childcare from 6 months old.

    Maternity pay is a side-show compared to this.

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,762
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
    Or more women stay at home and increased maternity pay and leave?
    Edit: beaten to it by @Pagan2.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    The Nazis and Japanese led a nation state, they weren't terrorists. Even if we had invaded Ireland and occupied Dublin we still would not have defeated the IRA.

    The Tamils were internal terrorists within Sri Lanka
    Hamas and Hezbollah are both quasi-leaders of a nation state too, running effectively Gaza and Lebanon respectively de facto if not de jure.

    Defeating terrorists militarily by pursuing them aggressively until they surrender unconditionally has happened many times, the idea it can't happen is a complete fallacy that is belied by history.

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    The Nazis and Japanese led a nation state, they weren't terrorists. Even if we had invaded Ireland and occupied Dublin we still would not have defeated the IRA.

    The Tamils were internal terrorists within Sri Lanka
    Hamas and Hezbollah are both quasi-leaders of a nation state too, running effectively Gaza and Lebanon respectively de facto if not de jure.

    Defeating terrorists militarily by pursuing them aggressively until they surrender unconditionally has happened many times, the idea it can't happen is a complete fallacy that is belied by history.
    Where’s JackW and his fellow Jacobites when you need them?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,362
    @GavinBarwell
    Today's Conservative Party:

    "Immigration is too high"

    "But our population is ageing, we need immigration"

    "Nah, women need to have more kids"

    "And we should encourage mums to stay at home to look after their kids"

    "Yeah and slash maternity pay"


    @Number10cat
    If Badenoch gets elected as Tory leader every Labour MP is going to have to register it as a gift


    @MrHarryCole
    Kemi camp in full damage control mode now:

    Source; “Infighting and internal conflicts helped take our party to an historic defeat. We need to be better, we need our politics to be better. Kemi obviously supports maternity pay and was making a case for lower regulation - something she always aimed for as business secretary. For other leadership campaigns to be seeking to use selective quotes from an interview to score political hits, shows they’re still wedded to the old politics and simply aren’t serious about getting back to government.”
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Going back to 7 October Hezbollah was seen as the much more dangerous adversary than Hamas. Perhaps Israel had been focusing much more on infiltrating Hezbollah than Hamas - who Bibi may have seen as useful idiots and which is much less centrally linked to Tehran.
    Hmm maybe. If so that was a tragic error. Israel has clearly developed incredible skill at taking out people with precision. The pagers!

    Every leader in Iran must be quietly terrified
    Just a reminder, Threads started off as a war in Iran.
    And 'Red Storm Rising' started as an oil refinery fire in Russia.

    It's this thing called fiction. You know, it's not real.
    Leon's reaction to watching Threads is one of those things I'll never forget.
    They are re-broadcasting it on the BBC on October 9. I shall not be watching for a 2nd time
    The BFI released War Game on DVD a few years back. I found that more traumatic, bizarrely, especially the scene where they were speaking about peoples eyes melting.

    Worth catching too.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480
    HYUFD said:

    A lot of good news coming from the Middle East at the minute it seems.

    Hopefully Israel can continue to press its advantage and defeat Hezbollah and Hamas and then we might finally be able to break the cycle of violence and have peace.

    If the evil Iranian regime falls too, all the better.

    They aren't going to defeat Hezbollah and Hamas if they bomb Lebanon and the West Bank and Gaza to smithereens, they will end up just creating even more terrorists.

    They should be focused on freeing the hostages by force with special forces and then working for a firm 2 state solution in Israel and Palestine and supporting reformers in Iran
    There is an endless supply of "even more terrorists" as long as Hamas exist in Gaza and Hezbollah exist in Lebanon.

    As long as they exist there is absolutely zero chance of a 2 state solution since Hamas can not be allowed to have a state.

    If Hamas are destroyed then and only then is there a chance of a 2 state solution. Then and only then can Gaza be rebuilt with Marshall-style aid. Then and only then can the cycle of violence be broken.

    But the sine qua non is the unconditional surrender of Hamas and Hezbollah. If that happens, then peace is possible, but if it doesn't then there will be more terrorists no matter what Israel does.

    A ceasefire today with Gaza left in the hands of Hamas, left blockaded, left with no hope and left in ruins just guarantees more hate, more terrorism and a return to violence as a matter of when, not if.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,781
    Former Arizona Senator Jeff Flake (GOP) just endorsed Harris.
    Highest profile Mormon to do so, I think.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,051
    theProle said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The best fix for larger family sizes is to sort the housing market, so buying a decent house doesn't require both parents to be out at work and the child dumped in childcare from 6 months old.

    Maternity pay is a side-show compared to this.

    Educated women want to use their education.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,741

    Fpt:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    'The wife of Tory leadership frontrunner Robert Jenrick advised oligarchs sanctioned in the wake of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we can reveal.'

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-favourite-robert-jenricks-33774378

    I'm liking him more and more. Hopefully he will lead a Government that attracts wealth, rather than repels it.
    Some policy from Jenrick too 'We need to free British workers from the reams of bureaucracy that get in the way.

    There is no reason for small businesses or sole traders to be saddled with the same regulation as big corporations with huge back-office teams.

    We need a tax system that rewards risk-takers, not punishes them. We should take advantage of our Brexit freedoms and change the VAT thresholds so that small businesses can keep and invest more of the money they make.

    We should increase the thresholds to £100,000, as recommended by the Federation of Small Businesses, which would allow tens of thousands of businesses to have an additional untaxed turnover of £10,000.

    That would allow them to hire more staff and invest in equipment that boosts our productivity.

    The state does have an important role to play in all of this. But we need a small state that works, not a big state that fails.

    So instead of the taxpayer subsidising low-value degrees, we should be funding the real skills of the future.

    That’s why I am calling to redirect funding away from the worst performing 10 per cent of universities towards the biggest expansion in technical colleges and apprenticeships in a generation.

    We should never again be in the position where we are reliant on foreign labour for brickies, plumbers and welders that help make this country what it is.

    These are important and well-paid jobs that Brits should be doing.

    And we need an energy policy that prioritises reliably cheap energy. Since 2000 our electricity prices have trebled. That has crippled British industry and tipped many businesses over the edge.

    It means a fundamentally different energy policy where we are pragmatic about reaching net zero. There are no prizes for reaching net zero first.

    I refuse to pursue net zero off the backs of working people. Instead of throwing more money at expensive renewables, we need a baseload of reliable energy from nuclear and gas that keeps bills lower for businesses and consumers.'
    And none of it is anything but the truth.

    And I can't think of anyone sensible, let alone Conservative, who could disagree.
    Baseload of tidal, not stupidly expensive nuclear. Build tidal at a quarter the price and lasting three times as long.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,480
    Andy_JS said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
    Or less migration.
    No because we have too few houses for the people here in this country today even without migration.

    Unless you deport or kill about 10 million people, we need millions more houses either way.

    Migration just means we need millions more plus an extra hundred thousand plus per annum on top of that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Israel has just killed ANOTHER Hezbollah leader

    War is horrific, but as horrors go this is impressively efficient

    But it also begs the question: why was this chilling accuracy not used against Hamas, why instead did they carpet bomb civilians?

    Because Bibi wants to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories, if you follow that, he's not interested in a greater Israel.
    Yes, that is my suspicion
    If you look at some of the stuff his cabinet have said publicly, such as the below, you can only imagine what they say/do in private.

    The EU, France and UK have condemned a senior Israeli minister for suggesting it might be “justified and moral” to starve people in Gaza.

    Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked international outrage after he said on Wednesday: “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”

    Separately on Wednesday, Israel’s Channel 12 broadcasted security camera footage that reportedly showed the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee from Gaza at Sde Teiman military detention camp. Last week, the detention of the soldiers accused of involvement in the alleged abuse sparked violent riots.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments
    I said at the beginning I suspected this of Israel. It’s the only logic behind their behaviour in Gaza - a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem. Just cleanse them entirely: make Gaza uninhabitable and terrify them out of the West Bank

    And if you’re an Israeli looking at October 7 I can see why you might feel that way. The Jewish state cannot tolerate the mere possibility it might happen again - it is existential. AND if you’re going to do this you have to get it done before Iran acquires nukes

    So: this will end either with the elimination of any Palestinian homeland or the destruction of Israel
    Israel can't defeat Hamas by invading and occupying the Palestinian Authority any more than the UK could defeat the IRA by invading and occupying the Republic of Ireland and West Belfast
    Of course they can, if they press their advantages until the enemies surrender unconditionally.

    Just as we pressed our advantages until the Nazis surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Americans pressed theirs until the Japanese surrendered unconditionally.
    Just as the Sri Lankans pressed theirs until the Tamil Tigers surrendered unconditionally.

    Unconditional surrender ends wars.
    Ethnic cleansing also ends historic conflicts. Cf Turkey/Greece

    This is what Israel is pursuing. They just can’t say it
    Indeed they can’t.

    The Gaza Strip would make for some first class seaside real estate when redeveloped.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,367
    "If Starmer, Lammy and Miliband are the best our elites can produce, Britain is surely ripe for revolution.
    Tom Slater"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/09/28/led-by-pygmies/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,050
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The ability to buy a house and survive on a single average salary in most parts of the country, is way more important than the provision of maternity leave.

    As ever, the solution is millions more houses.
    Or more women stay at home and increased maternity pay and leave?
    Why women maybe more men should stay at home....you don't seem to do anything useful except being a councillor....maybe your wife should be the breadwinner and you can do the hoovering
    My wife works too although I earn more than her at the moment (I am also not a councillor now). Though yes either parent could stay home with children if the other does the paid work and that would also reduce house prices
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,162
    Andy_JS said:

    "If Starmer, Lammy and Miliband are the best our elites can produce, Britain is surely ripe for revolution.
    Tom Slater"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/09/28/led-by-pygmies/

    That's the very last thing we need, and what scares me the most.

    I can see situations when I'm forced to defend or even vote Labour to stop it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    theProle said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think Kemi is unfit to be leader having just read her comments on maternity leave/pay. It's absolutely idiotic, in a country where we have a birth rate lower than the replacement rate we need for families to have an extra child, not have fewer because they can't afford the time off.

    If anything maternity pay and early years childcare funding needs to go up substantially so that parents don't feel as though they can't have 2 kids instead of 1 or decide that 2 is enough and not go for a third one etc...

    I don't know if it plays well with members, perhaps it does because they're all old fuckers who "didn't have that in our day and we raised a family of 17 on a single salary" but this shows she doesn't understand the major demographic issue facing the nation and a big driver of migration in the last 10 years.

    The best fix for larger family sizes is to sort the housing market, so buying a decent house doesn't require both parents to be out at work and the child dumped in childcare from 6 months old.

    Maternity pay is a side-show compared to this.
    There's some evidence that the main reason women don't have more children is that it takes them too long to find the right person they want to have children with. So you can approach this in, I think, three different ways.

    1. You could make it easier for women to have children on their own, without having a man around. Perhaps some sort of mutually supportive living arrangement for single mothers?
    2. You could provide incentives to men to encourage them to settle down and have a family earlier. What about providing a pension boost to people who have contributed to creating the future generations that will provide for old people in their retirement?
    3. You could provide incentives to encourage online dating sites to help people to form lasting relationships with other people, rather than a lasting commercial relationship with an online dating site. What if you were to provide maternity pay to online dating websites?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,781
    I would not have been standing there filming that. Dude is lucky still to be alive.

    Massive debris flow traveling at lightning speed in eastern TN! The preceding drought conditions followed by days of rain ahead of Hurricane Helene set the stage. This is incredibly rapid for a debris flow.
    https://x.com/ReedTimmerUSA/status/1840090638718579055
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,508
    @Leon

    Because of the hostages embedded with Hamas and the tunnel system under civilian areas.

    Is why they can't "do a Hezbollah" in Gaza.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    In optimistic news this wet Sunday, my wife has recently discovered Italians who share their recipes on Instagram.
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