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The Democrats are losing their enthusiasm – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited September 29 in General
The Democrats are losing their enthusiasm – politicalbetting.com

NEW Economist/YouGov Poll, September 21-24% who are extremely or very enthusiastic about voting for president in NovemberRepublicans: 62%Democrats: 61%https://t.co/vISj7yilza pic.twitter.com/dVbPSmZhHL

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    We will see.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    "German Green leaders resign after dismal election results
    The party is mired in “the deepest crisis” it has faced in a decade, one of its outgoing leaders said."

    https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-greens-leaders-resign-dismal-election-results-omid-nouripour-ricarda-lang/
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335
    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1
  • Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    So long as Sue's not at the football too; we don't want Ange running the country
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    edited September 25
    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    In the interests of Full Disclosure, both OGH and I have been invited to the Director's Box at Brighton in the past.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    On topic.
    Good article, which I trust doesn't breach PB's ban on illegitimate disparaging of pollsters ?

    The Polling Imperilment
    Presidential polls are no more reliable than they were a century ago. So why do they consume our political lives?
    https://prospect.org/politics/2024-09-25-polling-imperilment/
    In 2016, I experienced the desolation of my candidate for president losing after the most respected polling experts told me she had a 71.4 percent, 85 percent, 98.2 percent, and even 99 percent chance of winning. As a historian, I was studying how Ronald Reagan’s runaway landslide in 1980 was proceeded by every pollster but one supremely confident that the race was just about tied. I’ve just finished a fine book published in 2020 that confirms an intuition I’ve been chewing on since then. It turns out this is practically the historical norm. W. Joseph Campbell’s Lost in a Gallup: Polling Failure in U.S. Presidential Elections demonstrates—for the first time, strangely enough, given the robust persuasiveness of its conclusions—that presidential polls are almost always wrong, consistently, in deeply patterned ways...

    ...POLLSTERS TEND NOT TO INTERPRET THIS all as a spur to humility. Reading Campbell’s book, I found myself creating a section of my notes headed “Assholes.” Like George Gallup in ’48 giving the excuse that his mistakes were his audience’s fault: “Most laymen see no difference between forecasting an election and picking the winner of a horse race. In due time these people will be educated to the difference.” Or John Zogby in 2004, when he had joined the herd who said John Kerry had it in the bag. This was so taken for granted that on Election Day, senior adviser Bob Shrum said to Kerry, “May I be the first to call you Mr. President?” When this proved wrong, Zogby whined, “I don’t know that anyone was hospitalized over my prediction.”

    The spin’s the thing. Admitting the enterprise’s fallibility is bad for business...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    Kamala Harris needs to start talking to people who will challenge her, rather than soft-soap ‘vibes’ with Oprah.

    Sadly, I think the majority of the US media are so scared of Trump that they’re happy to let her walk to the election with no actual challenge.

    Swing voters actually notice this stuff.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Funny thing is, I've had arguments on Twitter with people telling me that Starmer absolutely could not be seated in the directors' box because of reasons.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    So long as Sue's not at the football too; we don't want Ange running the country
    They were both at Spurs the weekend before last, sitting next to the PR lady for the breakaway Euro Prem League.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13877225/Sir-Shameless-PM-Sue-Gray-enjoy-Spurs-freebie-lobbyist-backed-breakaway-football-super-league-advises-tax-avoiding-tech-giants.html
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,471
    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    It’s huge, invitation only, and full of people opposed to the new Football Governance Bill. Why on Earth would they want the PM to be there?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,980
    edited September 25
    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    So long as Sue's not at the football too; we don't want Ange running the country
    They were both at Spurs the weekend before last, sitting next to the PR lady for the breakaway Euro Prem League.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13877225/Sir-Shameless-PM-Sue-Gray-enjoy-Spurs-freebie-lobbyist-backed-breakaway-football-super-league-advises-tax-avoiding-tech-giants.html
    Did big bad Dom get free tickets to football?

    Presumably she was "working" as civil servants can't accept gifts like politicians can?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    It would have been slightly ridiculous if Pie hadn't criticised them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Taz said:

    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.

    Will it ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    So not gifted a box which costs £8,600 a game then.

    If what you say is all it is I cannot see how anyone can object to that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335
    Sandpit said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    It’s huge, invitation only, and full of people opposed to the new Football Governance Bill. Why on Earth would they want the PM to be there?
    That is a fair criticism, but if he’s going to attend football matches (which isn’t an unreasonable thing for a PM to want to do!) it’s probably the most cost-efficient way for the tax-payer.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Andy_JS said:

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    It would have been slightly ridiculous if Pie hadn't criticised them.
    Still waiting for GLP and LedbyDonkeys to.

    Vorderman, to her credit, has, even though her new book has had mixed reviews.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Taz said:

    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.

    But - as posted in previous thread: Harris has a 6% lead overall, leads by 2% in North Carolina and Georgia and is only 1% behind in FLORIDA.

    Pays money, takes choice...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Genuine LOL.

    Guido’s properly on to this now. If Starmer was there on election night as suggested, he’s got to be in real trouble with the Parliamentary authorities if he declared it as simply a place for his son to study. Potential campaign finance violations etc.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Does this really matter ?

    IS this nothing more than mischief making in this case ?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,984
    Taz said:

    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.

    I'm not quite sure how a comment like that helps and we've seen one or two of these claiming no one will argue a positive for Trump (I'm not stopping anyone) and no one will post polls which are positive for Trump (@HYUFD does and so do others).

    I'm also not sure who the "Kamala fanatics" are and why you have an issue with them. I'm happy to hear why a Trump second Presidency would be of benefit to America and the world - put the argument up.

    I'm not sure at this point this poll makes a lot of odds - 62 vs 61 is hardly a massive enthusiasm gasp in all honesty and IF the Democratic ground game is as good as is widely claimed, it'll be just as easy to get their voters to vote as it will be Republicans and there may be more of them (or there may not).

    We all know Harris piling up majorities in Delaware and Oregon and Trump piling up majorities in Kentucky and Utah isn't what this is about so again the enthusiasm numbers matter a lot less at this stage - the time to ask this would be this time next month and in the crucial marginal states.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Taz said:

    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.

    But - as posted in previous thread: Harris has a 6% lead overall, leads by 2% in North Carolina and Georgia and is only 1% behind in FLORIDA.

    Pays money, takes choice...
    Depends if the trend continues or not ?
  • Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Genuine LOL.

    Guido’s properly on to this now. If Starmer was there on election night as suggested, he’s got to be in real trouble with the Parliamentary authorities if he declared it as simply a place for his son to study. Potential campaign finance violations etc.
    Didn't he stay/work in the flat so his son could study/pepare in peace at home?

    I'm obviously not pro Keir, it just seems logical..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    OT - Harris got a nomination bounce. And a bounce after she picked her VP. These have faded.

    This is my opinion - no hard data to back it up.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Does this really matter ?

    IS this nothing more than mischief making in this case ?
    It's the hypocrisy, Starmer was saying one thing in public and condemning the government and supporting tough rules for the public while he was skirting the edges of the very same rules himself. He raised the bar and now is failing to meet it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Taz said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    So not gifted a box which costs £8,600 a game then.

    If what you say is all it is I cannot see how anyone can object to that.
    It's an absolute nothing burger of epic proportions, including the football and the frocks. ALL politicians of ALL parties accept gifts, some large, some small. The point is they declare them. The fact that a few obsessives on PB spend every waking hour in self-frisson about this stuff is irrelevant.

    Were they previously unaware of the register of interests?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Genuine LOL.

    Guido’s properly on to this now. If Starmer was there on election night as suggested, he’s got to be in real trouble with the Parliamentary authorities if he declared it as simply a place for his son to study. Potential campaign finance violations etc.
    Didn't he stay/work in the flat so his son could study/pepare in peace at home?

    I'm obviously not pro Keir, it just seems logical..
    The declaration was that the flat was for his son to use, as a quiet place to study.

    If he was working himself in the flat, he would need to show the expenditure in the returns to the Electoral Commission, rather than to Parliamentary authorities as a BIK donation.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Who TF is Jonathan Pie? Is he important in some way?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Taz said:

    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.

    Who are these Kamala fanatics? Can you name names?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Genuine LOL.

    Guido’s properly on to this now. If Starmer was there on election night as suggested, he’s got to be in real trouble with the Parliamentary authorities if he declared it as simply a place for his son to study. Potential campaign finance violations etc.
    Didn't he stay/work in the flat so his son could study/pepare in peace at home?

    I'm obviously not pro Keir, it just seems logical..
    It's not actually clear what the arrangement was:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9d17ljlvro

    Sounds like they all moved out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    edited September 25

    Who TF is Jonathan Pie? Is he important in some way?

    He’s a comedian who does a lot of funny political commentary and satire.

    Many people are upset with him, that following the change of government he’s still ripping the piss out of the incumbents.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    edited September 25
    Starmer's dilemma is one all working people can sympathise with.

    "I had to take freebies for my son, says Starmer
    Labour leader defends decision to use Lord Alli’s £18m penthouse and take free football tickets"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/25/keir-starmer-lord-alli-accommodation-son-gcses/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
    Does he then sell the seats through the Arsenal secondary market, recouping - IIRC - 80% of face?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Ooops, that will upset the Kamala fanatics who post here.

    But - as posted in previous thread: Harris has a 6% lead overall, leads by 2% in North Carolina and Georgia and is only 1% behind in FLORIDA.

    Pays money, takes choice...
    Depends if the trend continues or not ?
    Depends how good the pollster is too. Current trend still has Harris with a lead that wins the EC regardless.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Starmer's dilemma is one all working people can well understand.

    "I had to take freebies for my son, says Starmer
    Labour leader defends decision to use Lord Alli’s £18m penthouse and take free football tickets"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/25/keir-starmer-lord-alli-accommodation-son-gcses/

    Without wishing to sound like Andrea Leadsom, as a parent….
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Sandpit said:

    Who TF is Jonathan Pie? Is he important in some way?

    He’s a comedian who does a lot of funny political commentary and satire.

    Many people are upset with him, that following the change of government he’s still ripping the piss out of the incumbents.
    Never heard of the guy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Taz said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    So not gifted a box which costs £8,600 a game then.

    If what you say is all it is I cannot see how anyone can object to that.
    I suspect that most MPs who are football fans - irrespective of their political hue - will have watched a game from the Director's Box at one point or another.

    So - if it's as @Phil says - then it's an order of magnitude less damning that a £8,600/game box (which works out at about £200,000 for the season).

    In the interests of Full Disclosure, I will be watching the US Open Cup final this evening between LAFC and and Sporting Kansas City from a box. Albeit one that me and my friends paid for.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kenObi said:

    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say the expectation of work and work assessments for people on sickness benefits is the first Labour policy I support. The Tories should have done this in 2022. We also need to move to independent work assessments rather than GPs.

    I remember someone at my old workplace worked out it would need ~4.5k centrally contracted doctors to give everyone on sickness benefits one 30 minute work assessment every 90 days but it would also take a significant chunk out of GP appointment schedules freeing up resource for people who are sick and looking to get better rather than people who are chronically sick and won't get better or people who aren't sick and just want to get signed off by scamming and pretending they are.

    There's probably 1.5m people that can be pushed into the lesser unemployment benefits or back into work if this is done right and that will result in a ~£10bn saving at least.

    It's rare we agree on anything but I'm happy to agree with you on this.

    It's difficult and there are undoubtedly genuine cases of people who cannot work because of long-term debilitating or chronic conditions and I've every sympathy for those individuals.

    Mental health is one of those areas where the Coalition did some very good work - stress is a thing, I saw it many times in my working life and people react to it in different ways, some relish it, others don't. Helping those for whom stress is a negative experience get back to work is something all thoughtful employers should be and are about.

    That said, there are unquestionably a number who are playing the system to get sickness benefit in lieu of working for a living and that has to be the target. Whether that number is 1.5 million or not I don't know.
    Are there 1.5m jobs for them out there, though?
    In a past life I had a part in recruiting a lot of close to minimum wage staff. Warehouse picking etc
    Some permanent, some on short term contracts.
    This is a comparatively poor area with low employment.

    The success rate was decidely mixed.
    Some would turn up for interview, with no intention of working. But proof to job centre they were looking.

    A significant minority wanted no more than 3 days a week - after that child support would mean a very high effective tax rate. Its rational not to work a 4th or 5th day if you are coming out with an extra £10 a day.

    Absenteeism was high on a monday.
    Some would be great - absolute diamonds, capable of better, quick to learn and qualify to use a forklift (so paid 50p - £1 an hour more), quickly became team leaders etc

    A lot wanted to be paid weekly - what do you do if you start work on the 23rd of a month but don't get paid until say the 18th of the next month.

    One consistent theme was that if you could get people to turn up for 6 weeks - 3 months, they would by fine.
    High attrition rate in those early weeks.
    Work is a habit and takes time to learn or re-learn.
    Employers could offer more support, we offered pretty little I'm ashamed to say.
    Fantastic post. A lot of this is usually conveyed by anecdote (a friend tried to hire....) rather than actual experience.

    PB isn't the best place to find insights into the world of the low paid, manual workforce so this is super useful. Thx.
    This matches what I see in the low skilled end of the construction industry.

    The absurd cliff edges in employment vs benefits are a disaster.

    If someone is low skilled, there are two reasons ( usually )

    One is that they have been working for about 10 minutes. You'd have to work at *not* acquiring skills on a building site, though.

    The other is that they don't have the intellectual toolbox to learn skills, beyond basic things. This doesn't mean that they are dumb. It means that they haven't learnt (or been taught) how to learn. So they can't move up the ladder.
    Indeed: the failure of politicians of all hues to understand that benefit withdrawal cliff edges act as massive disincentives to working (and - of course - drive up demand for immigrants) is astonishing.

    And this is doubly important because getting people into consistent patterns of work isn't just good for the economy, it's good for their mental and physical health. We all benefit from routine, and work provides that.
  • OT. I wouldn't look at specific polls @MarqueeMark seems to have done to determine the outcome of the race - CNN has Harris today at +1 nationally and Quinnipac has the race tied. So should we say Harris has a +6 lead or doesn't have a lead at all? That is even more the case with the state polls.

    Probably better indicators are how consumers are feeling about specific topics and who would be best to fix them and that looks grim for Harris. Gallup had the GOP leading on 9 of the top 10 indicators and on the most important factors. Pew said the same recently.

    If you also look at the trends that are happening in the polls (if you believe them), it seems like AZ and GA are moving slowly but surely to be considered strong possibilities for Trump. NC is more at risk because of Robinson but that may suggest what will happen next with this bid for Governor. PA is tied. WI is marginal Harris but the WI polls have tended to massively overstate the Democrats' lead in 2016 and 2020.

    One final point - you might want to consider that high-profile Democrat Governors like Shapiro, Whitmer, Pritzker and Newsom have not exactly been banging the drum at 100% volume for Harris. There are a lot of big Democrat names who would see a Harris victory in 2024 as a block to their Presidential bids in 2028.
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 211
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    kenObi said:

    kyf_100 said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Have to say the expectation of work and work assessments for people on sickness benefits is the first Labour policy I support. The Tories should have done this in 2022. We also need to move to independent work assessments rather than GPs.

    I remember someone at my old workplace worked out it would need ~4.5k centrally contracted doctors to give everyone on sickness benefits one 30 minute work assessment every 90 days but it would also take a significant chunk out of GP appointment schedules freeing up resource for people who are sick and looking to get better rather than people who are chronically sick and won't get better or people who aren't sick and just want to get signed off by scamming and pretending they are.

    There's probably 1.5m people that can be pushed into the lesser unemployment benefits or back into work if this is done right and that will result in a ~£10bn saving at least.

    It's rare we agree on anything but I'm happy to agree with you on this.

    It's difficult and there are undoubtedly genuine cases of people who cannot work because of long-term debilitating or chronic conditions and I've every sympathy for those individuals.

    Mental health is one of those areas where the Coalition did some very good work - stress is a thing, I saw it many times in my working life and people react to it in different ways, some relish it, others don't. Helping those for whom stress is a negative experience get back to work is something all thoughtful employers should be and are about.

    That said, there are unquestionably a number who are playing the system to get sickness benefit in lieu of working for a living and that has to be the target. Whether that number is 1.5 million or not I don't know.
    Are there 1.5m jobs for them out there, though?
    In a past life I had a part in recruiting a lot of close to minimum wage staff. Warehouse picking etc
    Some permanent, some on short term contracts.
    This is a comparatively poor area with low employment.

    The success rate was decidely mixed.
    Some would turn up for interview, with no intention of working. But proof to job centre they were looking.

    A significant minority wanted no more than 3 days a week - after that child support would mean a very high effective tax rate. Its rational not to work a 4th or 5th day if you are coming out with an extra £10 a day.

    Absenteeism was high on a monday.
    Some would be great - absolute diamonds, capable of better, quick to learn and qualify to use a forklift (so paid 50p - £1 an hour more), quickly became team leaders etc

    A lot wanted to be paid weekly - what do you do if you start work on the 23rd of a month but don't get paid until say the 18th of the next month.

    One consistent theme was that if you could get people to turn up for 6 weeks - 3 months, they would by fine.
    High attrition rate in those early weeks.
    Work is a habit and takes time to learn or re-learn.
    Employers could offer more support, we offered pretty little I'm ashamed to say.
    Fantastic post. A lot of this is usually conveyed by anecdote (a friend tried to hire....) rather than actual experience.

    PB isn't the best place to find insights into the world of the low paid, manual workforce so this is super useful. Thx.
    I'd also add that many employers are stone age in their thinking (at least we were).

    How many mums with kids at school (even senior school) want to work 6am to 2pm, which is a frequent shift pattern ?
    They want to get their kids fed and dressed and be certain they are on the way to school.


    9 - 3pm, or 4pm or 5pm would work.
    They know education is the way out - they aren't daft.

    No harm in working 30, 32.5 or whatever rather than 37.5 hours a week.

    Don't crucify people if they need to take a kid to Doctors or go into school to sort a problem out. Things that are very difficult to do outside 8:30am - 4:30pm for most.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    rcs1000 said:

    Errr: using Lord Alli's flat for a Covid broadcast is by far the least damning thing he's done, because that actually is - you know - work.
    Yeah, but does working from home include working from someone else's home?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620

    Sandpit said:

    Who TF is Jonathan Pie? Is he important in some way?

    He’s a comedian who does a lot of funny political commentary and satire.

    Many people are upset with him, that following the change of government he’s still ripping the piss out of the incumbents.
    Never heard of the guy.
    He can be very funny, a lot of Youtube and a R4 series
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951

    Who TF is Jonathan Pie? Is he important in some way?

    He's a guy who's made a ten year career out of repeatedly doing Howard Beale's 'mad as hell' bit from the movie Network.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFzlm9wQ4MI

    vs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29MG_8gALko

    The reason he's been able to stretch his rants out ten years, of course, is that he's right.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    You've got to laugh, lol! 😂
  • rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
    Does he then sell the seats through the Arsenal secondary market, recouping - IIRC - 80% of face?
    He doesn't have a season ticket any more. It's another one of his vague lawyerly mistruths that he has allowed to continue, to let people use as reasoning to support his actions.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    OT. I wouldn't look at specific polls @MarqueeMark seems to have done to determine the outcome of the race - CNN has Harris today at +1 nationally and Quinnipac has the race tied. So should we say Harris has a +6 lead or doesn't have a lead at all? That is even more the case with the state polls.

    Probably better indicators are how consumers are feeling about specific topics and who would be best to fix them and that looks grim for Harris. Gallup had the GOP leading on 9 of the top 10 indicators and on the most important factors. Pew said the same recently.

    If you also look at the trends that are happening in the polls (if you believe them), it seems like AZ and GA are moving slowly but surely to be considered strong possibilities for Trump. NC is more at risk because of Robinson but that may suggest what will happen next with this bid for Governor. PA is tied. WI is marginal Harris but the WI polls have tended to massively overstate the Democrats' lead in 2016 and 2020.

    One final point - you might want to consider that high-profile Democrat Governors like Shapiro, Whitmer, Pritzker and Newsom have not exactly been banging the drum at 100% volume for Harris. There are a lot of big Democrat names who would see a Harris victory in 2024 as a block to their Presidential bids in 2028.

    In the interests of full disclosure, Gallup was the only pollster in 2020 to have Trump's favorables ahead of Biden's (46 v 44).

    I agree that AZ should be an easy pickup for Trump, but he does face two headwinds there: one is the abortion referendum, and two is the weakness of the Republican's Senatorial candidate.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Andy_JS said:

    Starmer's dilemma is one all working people can well understand.

    "I had to take freebies for my son, says Starmer
    Labour leader defends decision to use Lord Alli’s £18m penthouse and take free football tickets"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/09/25/keir-starmer-lord-alli-accommodation-son-gcses/

    Without wishing to sound like Andrea Leadsom, as a parent….
    Andrea Leadsom to believe she was a mother, as I recall
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
    Does he then sell the seats through the Arsenal secondary market, recouping - IIRC - 80% of face?
    He doesn't have a season ticket any more. It's another one of his vague lawyerly mistruths that he has allowed to continue, to let people use as reasoning to support his actions.
    Why would he give up his season ticket? Arsenal allows you to recoup almost the entire face value of a ticket by selling it back to the club on a game-by-game basis. Given how difficult getting new Arsenal season tickets is, he'd have to be pretty short sighted not to continue.
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 211
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://order-order.com/2024/09/25/starmer-pretended-lord-allis-penthouse-was-his-home-for-covid-broadcast/

    The video was broadcast on BBC One at 7 p.m, 13th December. Five days prior to Starmer’s message the government announced the entirety of England would be moved to Plan B rules in response to the fast spread of Omicron. According to the regulations those who could were meant to work from home. ‘Mr Rules’ even said in the video message:

    “It will be easy to let the festivities we’ve all been looking forward to divert us from our national duty. Getting jabbed, wearing masks, and working from home if we can really will help prevent infections and help prevent the NHS being overwhelmed.”

    Guido’s not sure working from home rules included working from someone else’s home. Must have been nice to head up to the massive roof terrace after that was done though…

    Genuine LOL.

    Guido’s properly on to this now. If Starmer was there on election night as suggested, he’s got to be in real trouble with the Parliamentary authorities if he declared it as simply a place for his son to study. Potential campaign finance violations etc.
    Didn't he stay/work in the flat so his son could study/pepare in peace at home?

    I'm obviously not pro Keir, it just seems logical..
    The declaration was that the flat was for his son to use, as a quiet place to study.

    If he was working himself in the flat, he would need to show the expenditure in the returns to the Electoral Commission, rather than to Parliamentary authorities as a BIK donation.
    Nope.
    The declaration merely states the value , the donor and the dates.

    The explanation was his son needing to study. I don't think anyone believe that he was there alone.

    The statement that he would need to show the expenditure in the returns to the Electoral Commission, RATHER than to Parliamentary authorities is flat wrong.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,521

    OT. I wouldn't look at specific polls @MarqueeMark seems to have done to determine the outcome of the race - CNN has Harris today at +1 nationally and Quinnipac has the race tied. So should we say Harris has a +6 lead or doesn't have a lead at all? That is even more the case with the state polls.

    Probably better indicators are how consumers are feeling about specific topics and who would be best to fix them and that looks grim for Harris. Gallup had the GOP leading on 9 of the top 10 indicators and on the most important factors. Pew said the same recently.

    If you also look at the trends that are happening in the polls (if you believe them), it seems like AZ and GA are moving slowly but surely to be considered strong possibilities for Trump. NC is more at risk because of Robinson but that may suggest what will happen next with this bid for Governor. PA is tied. WI is marginal Harris but the WI polls have tended to massively overstate the Democrats' lead in 2016 and 2020.

    One final point - you might want to consider that high-profile Democrat Governors like Shapiro, Whitmer, Pritzker and Newsom have not exactly been banging the drum at 100% volume for Harris. There are a lot of big Democrat names who would see a Harris victory in 2024 as a block to their Presidential bids in 2028.

    If (as seems probable right now), Trump picks up Arizona and Georgia, that puts him on 259 EC votes. That leaves Pennsylvania as the key.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    This is Trump's to lose, now
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Dopermean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Who TF is Jonathan Pie? Is he important in some way?

    He’s a comedian who does a lot of funny political commentary and satire.

    Many people are upset with him, that following the change of government he’s still ripping the piss out of the incumbents.
    Never heard of the guy.
    He can be very funny, a lot of Youtube and a R4 series
    He's not that funny unless you're a left-winger.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Errr: using Lord Alli's flat for a Covid broadcast is by far the least damning thing he's done, because that actually is - you know - work.
    Yeah, but does working from home include working from someone else's home?
    Unless he was living there. If he wasn't living there, why would he film the broadcast there? I can understand why he might not want to do to it from his real home - but then you do if from the office. Doing it from a "fake" home is a bit off - even if legal.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835
    edited September 25
    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    https://x.com/HCH_Hill/status/1838964596498931793

    @HCH_Hill
    At least Ed Miliband's functional kitchenette was his own functional kitchenette.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
    The failure of mainstream parties to get a grip on all this is like paving the road for the Far Right, and then giving them a new Ferrari to drive down it

    We will end up with Le Pen in power in France. the AfD in Germany, Meloni in Italy, and so on, and so forth; all painfully predictable
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
    Does he then sell the seats through the Arsenal secondary market, recouping - IIRC - 80% of face?
    He doesn't have a season ticket any more. It's another one of his vague lawyerly mistruths that he has allowed to continue, to let people use as reasoning to support his actions.
    Why would he give up his season ticket? Arsenal allows you to recoup almost the entire face value of a ticket by selling it back to the club on a game-by-game basis. Given how difficult getting new Arsenal season tickets is, he'd have to be pretty short sighted not to continue.
    That would depend on when he gave it up (if he did give it up, that is, of course).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,984
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
    The failure of mainstream parties to get a grip on all this is like paving the road for the Far Right, and then giving them a new Ferrari to drive down it

    We will end up with Le Pen in power in France. the AfD in Germany, Meloni in Italy, and so on, and so forth; all painfully predictable
    And when they equally predictably fail, what then?

    Wagenknecht in Germany, Melenchon in France ?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
    That was a big failing of our last government, failing to deport, though Cooper has quietly ramped it up.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420
    Sandpit said:

    Kamala Harris needs to start talking to people who will challenge her, rather than soft-soap ‘vibes’ with Oprah.

    Sadly, I think the majority of the US media are so scared of Trump that they’re happy to let her walk to the election with no actual challenge.

    Swing voters actually notice this stuff.

    Donald Trump doesn’t talk to people who will challenge him (and is avoiding a second debate with Harris). That strategy seems to work fine for Trump. Why wouldn’t it work for Harris?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
    The failure of mainstream parties to get a grip on all this is like paving the road for the Far Right, and then giving them a new Ferrari to drive down it

    We will end up with Le Pen in power in France. the AfD in Germany, Meloni in Italy, and so on, and so forth; all painfully predictable
    And when they equally predictably fail, what then?

    Wagenknecht in Germany, Melenchon in France ?
    They will likely succeed in their anti-migrant/deportation attempts, it's all the other damage they will do to democracy that is worrying

    Australia shows that this can be done if you're ruthless enough. Oz was also lucky in being a continent to itself with tiny islands to use as offshore destinations. European governments will have to be even more brutal but there is no doubt it can be done

    I expect a deconstruction of the ECHR and Eurojust powers over this, they will be eviscerated
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Leon said:

    This is Trump's to lose, now

    Just take a step back from the individuals involved and that has kinda obviously always been the case.

    The public are unhappy with the state of the economy. They are mad about immigration. The incumbent has been forced to pull out at a relatively late stage to be replaced by their deputy.

    The opposition should sweep the board in these circumstances.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    Indeed. This Pie character sounds like a bell-end.
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 211

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
    Does he then sell the seats through the Arsenal secondary market, recouping - IIRC - 80% of face?
    He doesn't have a season ticket any more. It's another one of his vague lawyerly mistruths that he has allowed to continue, to let people use as reasoning to support his actions.
    Any evidence of this ?

    Most football fans hold on to season tickets like limpets particularly at the likes of Arsenal, United, Liverpool and even Everton, and which is why some season ticket holders at Liverpool are rumoured to have reached the ripe old age of 107

    They can get face value back from the club without difficulty.

    When he's left office and on the ex PM speech gravy train, I'd be pretty certain his son would prefer to sit in his normal spec. with people he has probably known for 5 years+ than with some twats in a box.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
    The failure of mainstream parties to get a grip on all this is like paving the road for the Far Right, and then giving them a new Ferrari to drive down it

    We will end up with Le Pen in power in France. the AfD in Germany, Meloni in Italy, and so on, and so forth; all painfully predictable
    Why painful? I thought you wanted those people in power?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    edited September 25
    Is that it from Guido. Zzzzzzz

    Really , is this supposed to be a big deal.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited September 25

    Leon said:

    This is Trump's to lose, now

    Just take a step back from the individuals involved and that has kinda obviously always been the case.

    The public are unhappy with the state of the economy. They are mad about immigration. The incumbent has been forced to pull out at a relatively late stage to be replaced by their deputy.

    The opposition should sweep the board in these circumstances.
    Yes, tho in truth I only typed that out to freak out the PB Trump-hating bedwetterati
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Why are petrol prices falling so much at the moment?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,980
    edited September 25

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    Indeed. This Pie character sounds like a bell-end.
    I don't think you can fit even the end of a bell graph into a pie chart
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Sandpit said:

    Kamala Harris needs to start talking to people who will challenge her, rather than soft-soap ‘vibes’ with Oprah.

    Sadly, I think the majority of the US media are so scared of Trump that they’re happy to let her walk to the election with no actual challenge.

    Swing voters actually notice this stuff.

    Donald Trump doesn’t talk to people who will challenge him (and is avoiding a second debate with Harris). That strategy seems to work fine for Trump. Why wouldn’t it work for Harris?
    Or Clinton?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    Andy_JS said:

    Why are petrol prices falling so much at the moment?

    Sterling is up against the dollar and oil prices are steady ~$72-74.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    Indeed. This Pie character sounds like a bell-end.
    I don't think you can fit even the end of a bell graph into a pie chart
    Reads like a ChatGPT 'joke'
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    Indeed. This Pie character sounds like a bell-end.
    He’s very funny and really ripped into the Tories so it’s only fair that he does the same to the new government.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    I suspect @CharlieShark isn't long for this site.
  • nico679 said:

    Is that it from Guido. Zzzzzzz

    Really , is this supposed to be a big deal.

    It is part of a picture that some journalists are trying to paint not dissimilar to the days of Johnson

    I would venture to suggest that this is only the start of attempts to destabilise Starmer but in all honesty he and his cabinet colleagues have made it rather easy
  • Who's the highest ranked StarmTrooper: Anajobby, MexicanPeat or the Cambridge lawyer?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    This is going viral on TwiX. Is it true? I have never used Manc airport


    "The experience of arriving at Manchester Airport from Singapore is the nearest we can get to experiencing actual time travel from the future to the past, or to approximate viscerally the feeling of what it was like to return to East Germany from the West"

    https://x.com/MatthewLBishop/status/1838506530234126557

    Two points. He is comparing it to Changi which is probably the best airport in the world, and in one of the richest cities in the world. And I went through Edinburgh airport recently and I thought it was OK for a regional European airport, about the same as you'd get in Spain or Germany, a bit less flash than France

    But is Manc really that bad?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Andy_JS said:

    Why are petrol prices falling so much at the moment?

    Crude oil prices are down due to reduced demand from China. The Chinese economy is a bit weak due to the property debt unwinding.

    The Chinese government is attempting a large stimulus to get things moving again, but until people see evidence of increased demand they aren't convinced, so the oil price has fallen by about 15% in six months.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    carnforth said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "France to expel illegal immigrants who have ‘broken in’ to country
    Bruno Retailleau vows to ‘restore’ order as he begins tenure as new interior minister"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/24/france-expel-illegal-immigrants-broken-in-bruno-retailleau/

    Sounds like there is plenty to get a grip of. They're not even deporting criminals at the end of their sentences:

    "Murder of Paris student fuels anger at failed deportation"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly650vk317o

    "Currently fewer than 10% of French expulsion orders are carried out, according to government figures."
    Nor are we:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13875417/ugandan-killer-murdering-man-wont-deported-judge-rules-breach-human-rights.html
  • Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    Indeed. This Pie character sounds like a bell-end.
    I don't think you can fit even the end of a bell graph into a pie chart
    Reads like a ChatGPT 'joke'
    I thought it sufficiently good to match your lyrical TRUSS, bourbons are shit, Pie sounds like a bellend, prose
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    Leon said:

    This is going viral on TwiX. Is it true? I have never used Manc airport


    "The experience of arriving at Manchester Airport from Singapore is the nearest we can get to experiencing actual time travel from the future to the past, or to approximate viscerally the feeling of what it was like to return to East Germany from the West"

    https://x.com/MatthewLBishop/status/1838506530234126557

    Two points. He is comparing it to Changi which is probably the best airport in the world, and in one of the richest cities in the world. And I went through Edinburgh airport recently and I thought it was OK for a regional European airport, about the same as you'd get in Spain or Germany, a bit less flash than France

    But is Manc really that bad?

    It's been okay when I've used it, which isn't since about 2018. Wasn't too busy when I was there.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    Leon said:

    This is going viral on TwiX. Is it true? I have never used Manc airport


    "The experience of arriving at Manchester Airport from Singapore is the nearest we can get to experiencing actual time travel from the future to the past, or to approximate viscerally the feeling of what it was like to return to East Germany from the West"

    https://x.com/MatthewLBishop/status/1838506530234126557

    Two points. He is comparing it to Changi which is probably the best airport in the world, and in one of the richest cities in the world. And I went through Edinburgh airport recently and I thought it was OK for a regional European airport, about the same as you'd get in Spain or Germany, a bit less flash than France

    But is Manc really that bad?

    I haven't used it for about 18 months. But it's fine. It's like an airport in the present.
    There have been various issues with staffing over the past two or three years, same as other airports. But the actual fabric is fine. Like you'd expect tge third biggest airport in the UK to be.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    kenObi said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Phil said:

    NB. It seems the whole “Starmer is getting a box at Arsenal for free” is something of a misunderstanding - he’s being seated in the Director’s box, alongside all the other guests. The Director’s box is a) huge and b) invitation only, which presumably allows his security to vet the guest list. Similarly Sunak was seated in the Director’s box when he attended Southampton matches I believe.

    Much of the Starmer freebies story is a massive own goal of spectacular proportions, but this one seems reasonable?

    Source: https://x.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1838881435672871142/photo/1

    Starmer also continues to pay for his Arsenal season ticket.
    Does he then sell the seats through the Arsenal secondary market, recouping - IIRC - 80% of face?
    He doesn't have a season ticket any more. It's another one of his vague lawyerly mistruths that he has allowed to continue, to let people use as reasoning to support his actions.
    Any evidence of this ?

    Most football fans hold on to season tickets like limpets particularly at the likes of Arsenal, United, Liverpool and even Everton, and which is why some season ticket holders at Liverpool are rumoured to have reached the ripe old age of 107

    They can get face value back from the club without difficulty.

    When he's left office and on the ex PM speech gravy train, I'd be pretty certain his son would prefer to sit in his normal spec. with people he has probably known for 5 years+ than with some twats in a box.
    That's not true of Arsenal. I joined the season ticket waiting list in 2008 and got one in 2013. If you joined the list now, you're not going to be getting one any time soon. Point is, it all depends on the perception of the fans. At the moment, they've "got their Arsenal back". A bad season and we'll be back to loads of empty seats and it impossible to sell on the exchange.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Leon said:

    This is going viral on TwiX. Is it true? I have never used Manc airport


    "The experience of arriving at Manchester Airport from Singapore is the nearest we can get to experiencing actual time travel from the future to the past, or to approximate viscerally the feeling of what it was like to return to East Germany from the West"

    https://x.com/MatthewLBishop/status/1838506530234126557

    Two points. He is comparing it to Changi which is probably the best airport in the world, and in one of the richest cities in the world. And I went through Edinburgh airport recently and I thought it was OK for a regional European airport, about the same as you'd get in Spain or Germany, a bit less flash than France

    But is Manc really that bad?

    I last went through Manchester Airport ten or more years ago, and I was only ever airside of security (on a weird stopping service by Flybe from Exeter to Edinburgh), and I had the distinct impression of a crowded, chaotic and poorly laid out terminal.

    Edinburgh is superior, albeit it doesn't have to cope with as much traffic.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    nico679 said:

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    Indeed. This Pie character sounds like a bell-end.
    He’s very funny and really ripped into the Tories so it’s only fair that he does the same to the new government.
    To be fair to Pie, while he is probably on the left, he mocked twattery wherever he saw it - he was never that tribal. He's certainly no Centrist Dad.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Even “Jonathan Pie” has turned on Labour.

    https://x.com/jonathanpienews/status/1838902692065734876

    You can’t be in opposition for 14 years, criticising the Tories for accepting ‘gifts’, and certain privileges, then act surprised when the public call you out for doing the same thing.
    From Angela Rayner’s ‘But everybody does it’ excuse, to Starmer saying ‘It was the right thing to do’, Labour needs to sort their shit out ASAP, because as Honeymoon periods go, this one has been an absolute car crash.

    Labour are being criticised for things that they DIDN’T criticise the Tories for.
    I'd say the closest equivalent under the Tories was wallpapergate.
    Which they absolutely ripped into the Tories for.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Leon said:

    This is going viral on TwiX. Is it true? I have never used Manc airport


    "The experience of arriving at Manchester Airport from Singapore is the nearest we can get to experiencing actual time travel from the future to the past, or to approximate viscerally the feeling of what it was like to return to East Germany from the West"

    https://x.com/MatthewLBishop/status/1838506530234126557

    Two points. He is comparing it to Changi which is probably the best airport in the world, and in one of the richest cities in the world. And I went through Edinburgh airport recently and I thought it was OK for a regional European airport, about the same as you'd get in Spain or Germany, a bit less flash than France

    But is Manc really that bad?

    It's awful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    This is going viral on TwiX. Is it true? I have never used Manc airport


    "The experience of arriving at Manchester Airport from Singapore is the nearest we can get to experiencing actual time travel from the future to the past, or to approximate viscerally the feeling of what it was like to return to East Germany from the West"

    https://x.com/MatthewLBishop/status/1838506530234126557

    Two points. He is comparing it to Changi which is probably the best airport in the world, and in one of the richest cities in the world. And I went through Edinburgh airport recently and I thought it was OK for a regional European airport, about the same as you'd get in Spain or Germany, a bit less flash than France

    But is Manc really that bad?

    I last went through Manchester Airport ten or more years ago, and I was only ever airside of security (on a weird stopping service by Flybe from Exeter to Edinburgh), and I had the distinct impression of a crowded, chaotic and poorly laid out terminal.

    Edinburgh is superior, albeit it doesn't have to cope with as much traffic.
    My favourite regional airport in the UK is Foula island. Which is literally a grass strip, and a small hut

    Shetland has some weird tiny ones as well, and isn't there a beach airport in the Outer Hebrides

    For actual airport airports, Newquay has a picayune charm, right by the Cornish cliffs
  • I've replaced the scrunched up newspaper in my walking shoes five times and they're still not dry
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    A 1% lead for Trump in terms of party enthusiasm for voting for their candidate in November is good news for Trump. However, if Harris wins Independents that would be more important as they are the key swing voters and if the African American vote turns out for her in swing states like NC and Georgia that would also boost her
This discussion has been closed.