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The State of the Union, Week 4 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,158
edited September 29 in General
imageThe State of the Union, Week 4 – politicalbetting.com

Slight – very slight – movements to Harris at national level for everyone, but it’s still finely balanced. PEC has moved enough to make Harris a slight favourite.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,390
    First
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited September 23
    EC looks likely to come down to Pennsylvania and NC, Harris needs to win one of them and Trump both.

    House looks close too, Senate likely goes GOP as even if they only gain WV and Montana they take control
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,390
    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,176

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    Too close to call. Especially with election interference from the Trumpets.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    All roads run through Pennsylvania, where the polling has been 51/49 in either direction for the last couple of months.

    It’s looking like a repeat of Florida 2000, but with much more inflammatory language used by both main parties, let’s hope it all plays out somewhere close to peacefully.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    If Trump wins we will point to the polling on the economy and say that it was always obvious that he would win.

    If Harris wins we'll be so quick to criticise her for accepting free tickets to an Oasis concert that we won't have time to consider why she won the election.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
  • HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    There will be a firestorm of litigation from DJT starting on election night if it looks like he's lost.

    His core vote are too fat, old and stupid to sustain an armed insurrection. They are not exactly the Mahdi Army so the courts are their best hope of over-turning a Harris win.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,049
    Nigelb said:

    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857

    "Specific gravity" is a ratio between the density of two objects. He meant "absolute gravity".
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362
    edited September 23

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    He was listening to Andrew Gilligan and Policy Exchange who Rishi thought had a clue rather than the bunch of clueless chancers who had hit lucky that they really were.

    an interesting later issue is that they are vaguely right about Manchester - that needs to be thought through with careful attention on how to implement it in a way that NPR could use it going forward rather than the current project which was solved the getting into Piccadilly solution by creating a longer term issue..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    Dura_Ace said:

    There will be a firestorm of litigation from DJT starting on election night if it looks like he's lost.

    His core vote are too fat, old and stupid to sustain an armed insurrection. They are not exactly the Mahdi Army so the courts are their best hope of over-turning a Harris win.

    Not sure that is entirely true, Trump polls better with white non college educated middle aged males than pensioners, even if he leads with both
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    What the hell was Sunak thinking?

    Where's that box I use to climb into my helicopter?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    If Trump wins we will point to the polling on the economy and say that it was always obvious that he would win.

    If Harris wins we'll be so quick to criticise her for accepting free tickets to an Oasis concert that we won't have time to consider why she won the election.
    Here's a cunning ruse: perhaps she will actually do some stuff in her first 100 days, and that will deflect attention from the tickets?

    She at least can't connect fictions about the mess her predecessor left and didn't tell her about.
  • viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857

    "Specific gravity" is a ratio between the density of two objects. He meant "absolute gravity".
    I don't know.

    Those who let Trump into the Republican ecosystem in 2016 were pretty dense to do so.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,579
    HYUFD said:

    EC looks likely to come down to Pennsylvania and NC, Harris needs to win one of them and Trump both.

    House looks close too, Senate likely goes GOP as even if they only gain WV and Montana they take control

    GOP will get WV. Senate hinges on Montana.

    In Montana, Sheehy (R) is 5% ahead of Tester (D) but there are no recent polls.
    If Montana goes for Tester, Kamala still has to win so that Walz is VP and Chair of the new Senate with the casting vote for Dems to control the Senate.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,049
    Dura_Ace said:

    There will be a firestorm of litigation from DJT starting on election night if it looks like he's lost.

    His core vote are too fat, old and stupid to sustain an armed insurrection. They are not exactly the Mahdi Army so the courts are their best hope of over-turning a Harris win.

    We're lucky the GOP don't have any lawyers and a track record of intimidating election counters then. Ooops. :(
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    This is an interesting point.
    Musk is now paying posters of his website whose posts have a high number of reader engagement. Does that make him a publisher ?

    The fact that Twitter continues to promote, and in fact rewards, this account (and others like it) even as it routinely spreads invented, defamatory lies does make you wonder whether social-media platforms should have total immunity from libel lawsuits.
    https://x.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1837882539484082299
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 224

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    no
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339
    edited September 23
    mercator said:

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    If Trump wins we will point to the polling on the economy and say that it was always obvious that he would win.

    If Harris wins we'll be so quick to criticise her for accepting free tickets to an Oasis concert that we won't have time to consider why she won the election.
    Here's a cunning ruse: perhaps she will actually do some stuff in her first 100 days, and that will deflect attention from the tickets?

    She at least can't connect fictions about the mess her predecessor left and didn't tell her about.
    It's having expectations and being optimistic that leads to being disappointed.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    mercator said:

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    If Trump wins we will point to the polling on the economy and say that it was always obvious that he would win.

    If Harris wins we'll be so quick to criticise her for accepting free tickets to an Oasis concert that we won't have time to consider why she won the election.
    Here's a cunning ruse: perhaps she will actually do some stuff in her first 100 days, and that will deflect attention from the tickets?

    She at least can't connect fictions about the mess her predecessor left and didn't tell her about.
    I think I preferred @IshmaelZ v1.0 which got drunk at approximately 4pm every day then proceeded to spout vitriol at innocent bystanders on PB in an increasingly creepy and disturbing way. Yes, you were sinister and unpleasant then. Now you are predictable and boring, which is arguably worse.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    He wasn't thinking.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    If Trump wins we will point to the polling on the economy and say that it was always obvious that he would win.

    If Harris wins we'll be so quick to criticise her for accepting free tickets to an Oasis concert that we won't have time to consider why she won the election.
    Here's a cunning ruse: perhaps she will actually do some stuff in her first 100 days, and that will deflect attention from the tickets?

    She at least can't connect fictions about the mess her predecessor left and didn't tell her about.
    I think I preferred @IshmaelZ v1.0 which got drunk at approximately 4pm every day then proceeded to spout vitriol at innocent bystanders on PB in an increasingly creepy and disturbing way. Yes, you were sinister and unpleasant then. Now you are predictable and boring, which is arguably worse.
    Not sure what you are on about, but you're apparently past denial and not yet at bargaining. Carry on.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    mercator said:

    Really should be doing some work rather than wasting time on PB. On topic. Does anyone really have a Scooby who is going to to win?

    If Trump wins we will point to the polling on the economy and say that it was always obvious that he would win.

    If Harris wins we'll be so quick to criticise her for accepting free tickets to an Oasis concert that we won't have time to consider why she won the election.
    Here's a cunning ruse: perhaps she will actually do some stuff in her first 100 days, and that will deflect attention from the tickets?

    She at least can't connect fictions about the mess her predecessor left and didn't tell her about.
    Confect fictions.
  • Renegade_pollsterRenegade_pollster Posts: 187
    edited September 23
    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    Dura_Ace said:

    There will be a firestorm of litigation from DJT starting on election night if it looks like he's lost.

    His core vote are too fat, old and stupid to sustain an armed insurrection. They are not exactly the Mahdi Army so the courts are their best hope of over-turning a Harris win.

    The firestorm of litigation already started.
    Unless it's very close, it will make no difference at all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    EC looks likely to come down to Pennsylvania and NC, Harris needs to win one of them and Trump both.

    House looks close too, Senate likely goes GOP as even if they only gain WV and Montana they take control

    GOP will get WV. Senate hinges on Montana.

    In Montana, Sheehy (R) is 5% ahead of Tester (D) but there are no recent polls.
    If Montana goes for Tester, Kamala still has to win so that Walz is VP and Chair of the new Senate with the casting vote for Dems to control the Senate.
    There are also Florida and Texas to consider.
    Which are long odds, but genuine chances for the Democrats to pick up a Senate seat.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,176
    MattW said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    He wasn't thinking.
    The collective capacity for thought among our "leading politicians" is pretty low.

    "leading politicians" as a phrase reminds me of something... googles...


    We class schools, you see, into four grades: Leading School, First-rate School, Good School, and School. Frankly,' said Mr Levy, 'School is pretty bad.....'

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857

    "Specific gravity" is a ratio between the density of two objects. He meant "absolute gravity".
    I don't know.

    Those who let Trump into the Republican ecosystem in 2016 were pretty dense to do so.
    It was already tending in that direction. He just seized the opportunity - and then steadily marginalised the more traditional Republicans.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    This is wild, in an election year.

    X/Twitter user numbers now down by almost a third over the last year in the UK, and by almost a fifth in the US.
    https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1838194949847654712
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093
    Nigelb said:

    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857

    It's like how the Tories sold themselves to/for Brexit. Except the degree of difference is so vast that it isn't very like that.

    America always does things bigger and bolder and 'major party being corrupted and infantilized by something rotten' is no exception.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362
    Nigelb said:

    This is wild, in an election year.

    X/Twitter user numbers now down by almost a third over the last year in the UK, and by almost a fifth in the US.
    https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1838194949847654712

    That's not surprising - if the people you follow on twitter leave twitter, you may well move to the site they have moved to..
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098
    Dura_Ace said:

    There will be a firestorm of litigation from DJT starting on election night if it looks like he's lost.

    His core vote are too fat, old and stupid to sustain an armed insurrection. They are not exactly the Mahdi Army so the courts are their best hope of over-turning a Harris win.

    One problem with that may be that he hasn't got many lawyers any more.

    Some of them are disbarred, a few are in prison, some of them have stopped doing stuff for him because he doesn't pay any bills, and some have flipped as cooperating witnesses. Not sure on the numbers. Habba-Dabba-Doo seems to have been put back into a PR-lady role after losing him hundreds of millions in judgements.

    Some of his movement to me bear a certain resemblance to Eugène Terre'Blanche's 'Afrikaner Resistance Movement' who were going to overturn the new South Africa.

    Remember him?

    IIRC the AWB were all mouth and some actions, then seemed to stop being so front foot when three of them were shot dead by a policeman. TBF the shooting was in questionable circumstances (summary killing after a shooting incident, and the allegedly rogue black cop said 'war situation'.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    edited September 23
    Century for Trump, what a great start to his campaign!!!




    We’re all watching the British Open snooker from Cheltenham, right?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,566

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    Termination at Old Oak Common was a suggested option taken seriously at several points of the development of HS2, if I remember correctly. Falling back to it now may be a short-sighted money-saving exercise, but it's not out of left field.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    It was his 'making tough commonsense decisions' phase iirc. Lasted a couple of weeks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    I was going to mention them: that's a very solid set of polls for Trump from Siena, which is an extremely well regarded poster.

    It could be that Harris's post debate surge is subsiding.
  • viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857

    "Specific gravity" is a ratio between the density of two objects. He meant "absolute gravity".
    I don't know.

    Those who let Trump into the Republican ecosystem in 2016 were pretty dense to do so.
    Trump was only the ological progression (I won't say endpoint, but I hope it to be so) of how the Republican Party had devolved over the previous decades: racism, isolationism, denial of facts and wilful ignorance. These were already part of the party's DNA before DJT arrived - it it hadn't been so, he couldn't have seized the party so quickly.
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 179

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    Ditched ?

    He has to withdraw and absentee ballots wnt out last Friday.

    He's been under immense pressure to pull out, but seems determined not to.

    Time is not on the side of GOP here.
  • MattW said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    He wasn't thinking.
    HS1 was commissioned cancelled re-commissioned, threatened with cancellation and then went ahead. Maybe I use it more than some but I much prefer Eurostar to any other means of crossing the Channel. The fact it is more expensive than flying implies a lot feel the same way as I do.

    There is more venom than honesty when we talk about trains. By my own experience trains are never late in New Zealand. FACT - explanation a train which arrives the same day as it sets off is defined as on time in New Zealand.

    Actually for non-essential travel for those of us who are over 60 trains in the UK are bloody good. Certainly better than flying from Manchester to Heathrow in my view.

    The biggest problem for me and other West Coast Main Line users is dragging my cases from Euston to Saint Pancras was much better when the y went from Waterloo. The greatest improvement which we could have well done without at Euston was replacing the excellent lists of all departing trains in the main concourse with fucking adverts for air freshner.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    Harris' worst poll since the debate.
    Add it to the averages.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093
    Dura_Ace said:

    There will be a firestorm of litigation from DJT starting on election night if it looks like he's lost.

    His core vote are too fat, old and stupid to sustain an armed insurrection. They are not exactly the Mahdi Army so the courts are their best hope of over-turning a Harris win.

    What if they go around sitting on people though? That could get nasty.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ken Burns...

    The GOP has "morphed" into an "incredibly dangerous" party, says
    @KenBurns
    "It's going to be difficult for the Republican Party to figure out a way to escape the specific gravity of the darkness that engulfs it.”

    https://x.com/AliVelshi/status/1837906220037873857

    "Specific gravity" is a ratio between the density of two objects. He meant "absolute gravity".
    I don't know.

    Those who let Trump into the Republican ecosystem in 2016 were pretty dense to do so.
    Trump was only the ological progression (I won't say endpoint, but I hope it to be so) of how the Republican Party had devolved over the previous decades: racism, isolationism, denial of facts and wilful ignorance. These were already part of the party's DNA before DJT arrived - it it hadn't been so, he couldn't have seized the party so quickly.
    Logical ? Ontological ? Oological (surely not) ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    rcs1000 said:

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    I was going to mention them: that's a very solid set of polls for Trump from Siena, which is an extremely well regarded poster.

    It could be that Harris's post debate surge is subsiding.
    Or it could be an outlier. No real way to know,

    I think Siena polls have tended in Trump's favour this cycle ? They might be right, or they might have a methodological bias.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093
    rcs1000 said:

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    I was going to mention them: that's a very solid set of polls for Trump from Siena, which is an extremely well regarded poster.

    It could be that Harris's post debate surge is subsiding.
    Or it could be an 'off' one. Those numbers don't scan well with how the nationals have been looking recently.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093
    Sandpit said:

    Century for Trump, what a great start to his campaign!!!

    We’re all watching the British Open snooker from Cheltenham, right?

    I'm a fan of that Trump. I do wish he'd change his name though. Bit disappointing that he hasn't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    This looks like an interesting book (written a couple of decades back).

    Thread with excerpts from “The Affirmative Action Empire: Nations and Nationalism in the Soviet Union, 1923-1939” by Terry Martin
    https://x.com/Peter_Nimitz/status/1557561006439923713

    Explains quite a bit about the Soviet determined aspects of the relationship between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,686
    carnforth said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    Termination at Old Oak Common was a suggested option taken seriously at several points of the development of HS2, if I remember correctly. Falling back to it now may be a short-sighted money-saving exercise, but it's not out of left field.
    My view - Either connect it directly to St Pancras and the international trains or it doesn't matter where in London as long as plenty of tube/Crossrail links.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,481
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Century for Trump, what a great start to his campaign!!!

    We’re all watching the British Open snooker from Cheltenham, right?

    I'm a fan of that Trump. I do wish he'd change his name though. Bit disappointing that he hasn't.
    From Judd to Donald?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362

    carnforth said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    Termination at Old Oak Common was a suggested option taken seriously at several points of the development of HS2, if I remember correctly. Falling back to it now may be a short-sighted money-saving exercise, but it's not out of left field.
    My view - Either connect it directly to St Pancras and the international trains or it doesn't matter where in London as long as plenty of tube/Crossrail links.
    Crossrail is already running at capacity but that's not getting much publicity for want to triggering Crossrail 2 and 3.

    One big part of the cost of Euston is expanding underground capacity there..

    the number of people going to the Eurostar is actually irrelevant to the issue because I doubt it's that many people at all..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,224

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    Yes, I understand "sunk cost fallacy" but really, I think Macbeth is more germane now:


    I am in blood
    Stepped in so far that, should I wade no more,
    Returning were as tedious as go o’er


    Just finish the damn thing

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,224
    Nigelb said:

    This is wild, in an election year.

    X/Twitter user numbers now down by almost a third over the last year in the UK, and by almost a fifth in the US.
    https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1838194949847654712

    A lot of it is bot-purging, apparently
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,390
    Leon said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    Yes, I understand "sunk cost fallacy" but really, I think Macbeth is more germane now:


    I am in blood
    Stepped in so far that, should I wade no more,
    Returning were as tedious as go o’er


    Just finish the damn thing

    Bon Jovi had it better.

    "Ooh, oh, we're halfway there.
    Ooh, oh, livin' on a prayer"
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,098
    edited September 23
    Interest little 7 minute video from cycling-urbanist Youtuber Shifter who has been to the "Worst Cycle Lane in the World" aka The Giant Slalom (Franz Klammer would love it) on Leith Walk in Edinburgh.

    He's a bit naif and Yankee about it, and makes the mistake of swallowing what he has been told about the Council & the politics (like the Dodgy Landlord in Parliament they blame the contractor, having signed the bloody contract themselves).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mOMe-ZXeoY
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,579
    Nigelb said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    EC looks likely to come down to Pennsylvania and NC, Harris needs to win one of them and Trump both.

    House looks close too, Senate likely goes GOP as even if they only gain WV and Montana they take control

    GOP will get WV. Senate hinges on Montana.

    In Montana, Sheehy (R) is 5% ahead of Tester (D) but there are no recent polls.
    If Montana goes for Tester, Kamala still has to win so that Walz is VP and Chair of the new Senate with the casting vote for Dems to control the Senate.
    There are also Florida and Texas to consider.
    Which are long odds, but genuine chances for the Democrats to pick up a Senate seat.
    You're right. 4% or 5% GOP leads in each state, similar to Montana.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 224
    rcs1000 said:

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    I was going to mention them: that's a very solid set of polls for Trump from Siena, which is an extremely well regarded poster.

    It could be that Harris's post debate surge is subsiding.
    or she has a particular weakness in the sunbelt since she had a good poll in PA a few days ago with the same pollster. Trump seems to be doing well with Black and Hispanic voters again.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,579
    rcs1000 said:

    Not sure if the new NYT /Siena state polls have been discussed but:

    GA - Trump +4
    NC - Trump +2
    AZ - Trump +5

    With NC, it looks like Robinson is going to be ditched as the GOP candidate. Remember NC's early voting was delayed for most voters to Sep 24th because of the ruling on Kennedy's name coming off the ballot.

    I was going to mention them: that's a very solid set of polls for Trump from Siena, which is an extremely well regarded poster.

    It could be that Harris's post debate surge is subsiding.
    There is no sign of her lead subsiding in the EMA of national polls. The latest was the CBS YouGov poll (18-20 Sep). If it's subsiding it's very recent but there haven't been any significant recent events.



  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    edited September 23
    Had a board meeting this morning. Midlands manufacturers give Reeves the thumbs down.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,224
    HS2 seems to be one of the few things that unites virtually all of PB

    Get. It. Finished
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

    Cool thing which I did not know about - compact between 17 states and DC to award their EC votes to the PV winner (but not in effect till more states, not sure how many, sign up, which seems unlikely)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,176
    mercator said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

    Cool thing which I did not know about - compact between 17 states and DC to award their EC votes to the PV winner (but not in effect till more states, not sure how many, sign up, which seems unlikely)

    Republicans are trying to unwind this - for certain states....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012
    Barnesian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    EC looks likely to come down to Pennsylvania and NC, Harris needs to win one of them and Trump both.

    House looks close too, Senate likely goes GOP as even if they only gain WV and Montana they take control

    GOP will get WV. Senate hinges on Montana.

    In Montana, Sheehy (R) is 5% ahead of Tester (D) but there are no recent polls.
    If Montana goes for Tester, Kamala still has to win so that Walz is VP and Chair of the new Senate with the casting vote for Dems to control the Senate.
    There are also Florida and Texas to consider.
    Which are long odds, but genuine chances for the Democrats to pick up a Senate seat.
    You're right. 4% or 5% GOP leads in each state, similar to Montana.
    With one recent poll in Texas showing a tie.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 929
    Staring to look like a continual steady drift to Harris, Trump has mentioned the possibility of defeat twice in the last few days. By the time of election day the Electoral College may look like a bit of landslide for Harris and the Democrats.
    Trouble with US polling is that some organisations involved are favourable to one side or the other. Yet even there Trafalgar have been showing Harris just ahead nationally and very close or a tie in some spots Georgia etc.
    Harris has the momentum and betting on Trump is probably a distinct loser.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    mercator said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

    Cool thing which I did not know about - compact between 17 states and DC to award their EC votes to the PV winner (but not in effect till more states, not sure how many, sign up, which seems unlikely)

    That’s been talked about for two decades, the idea that the States abandon the Electoral College system in favour of a “Popular Vote for President”. It’s probably too partisan to get anywhere now though.

    In order to avoid the courts knocking it down, it would probably need to be a constitutional amendment, which is very unlikely to happen.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 492
    MattW said:

    Interest little 7 minute video from cycling-urbanist Youtuber Shifter who has been to the "Worst Cycle Lane in the World" aka The Giant Slalom (Franz Klammer would love it) on Leith Walk in Edinburgh.

    He's a bit naif and Yankee about it, and makes the mistake of swallowing what he has been told about the Council & the politics (like the Dodgy Landlord in Parliament they blame the contractor, having signed the bloody contract themselves).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mOMe-ZXeoY

    There are some really shit cycle lanes, one near me shifts from being at road level to slightly above to pavement level, with a tiny beveled kerb for the just above road level stretch. It is very difficult to discern visually and could easily result in losing the front wheel and crashing in front of a motor vehicle while doing sweet FA to deter cars from driving onto the cycle lane.
    As a confident cyclist I'm much happier with a bit of paint on the road than most of the "safer" cycle lanes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    Century for Trump, what a great start to his campaign!!!

    We’re all watching the British Open snooker from Cheltenham, right?

    I'm a fan of that Trump. I do wish he'd change his name though. Bit disappointing that he hasn't.
    If his career really takes off he might end up being the more famous of the two Trumps, just as Cristiano went on to eclipse that other fella who had the same name and played for Brazil back in the day.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Had a board meeting this morning. Midlands manufacturers give Reeves the thumbs down.

    Based.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    The Siena /New York Times for Arizona poll looks questionable.

    The last poll was done before the debate which Harris clearly won , she was leading 50-45 in Arizona .

    Now those figures are reversed .

    In terms of NC it’s the turnout weighting which gives Trump a lead . In terms of NC and Robinson , if he withdraws then a new candidate won’t be named on the ballot , so voters will have to understand that a vote for Robinson is for the new candidate.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339
    mercator said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

    Cool thing which I did not know about - compact between 17 states and DC to award their EC votes to the PV winner (but not in effect till more states, not sure how many, sign up, which seems unlikely)

    In effect when the states signed up have a majority of the EC votes, and so the compact then determines the winner.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,393
    nico679 said:

    The Siena /New York Times for Arizona poll looks questionable.

    The last poll was done before the debate which Harris clearly won , she was leading 50-45 in Arizona .

    Now those figures are reversed .

    In terms of NC it’s the turnout weighting which gives Trump a lead . In terms of NC and Robinson , if he withdraws then a new candidate won’t be named on the ballot , so voters will have to understand that a vote for Robinson is for the new candidate.

    Trump has plenty of quiet support, and potentially in all the right places.
  • Reuters - Liechtenstein votes to join IMF in referendum

    Liechtenstein voted to join the International Monetary Fund in a referendum on Sunday in a move aimed at integrating the tiny principality more deeply into multilateral affairs and creating a backstop for potential emergencies.

    By a margin of 55.8% to 44.2%, voters in the wealthy country sandwiched between Switzerland and Austria backed becoming the 191st member of the Washington-based fund, according to an official government tally.

    Membership was backed by Prince Alois, the acting head of state and heir to the throne, who said earlier this month it would underpin the financial stability of Liechtenstein and provide access to liquidity in the event of any emergency.

    Foreign Minister Dominique Hasler said the country had opted for the IMF after careful consideration in order to pursue an active foreign policy and do it in a multilateral organization that made sense for a nation of its size.

    Membership also offered an additional layer of security in case of potential crises, she told Reuters.

    "Because we've seen in the past that even countries that are doing well can benefit from being an IMF member," she said.

    Hasler said Liechtenstein would formally become a member after sealing its accession with the IMF on Oct. 21.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/liechtenstein-votes-join-imf-referendum-2024-09-22/

    For official results see:
    https://www.abstimmungen.li/resultat/33

    SSI - Note that IMF membership won majority of those voting in every community, with highest approval in Vaduz, capital of Liechtenstein (61.5%) and lowest in Treisen (50.1%).

    BTW (and maybe FYI) for those PBers who have NOT been keeping score at home, yesterday's vote was the 6th referendum in the Principality this year, with #7 scheduled for end of October - BOO!

    21 January (67.9% turnout) of 20,950 registered)
    > Mandatory photovoltaic panels on non-residential buildings = 66.6% Against
    > Reform of the energy efficiency standards = 65.2% Against
    > Electronic health records opt-in = 53.9% Against

    25 February (66.5% turnout)
    > Direct election of the members of government = 68.0% Against

    16 June (67.0% turnout)
    > Building a new state hospital = 53.7% For

    22 September (60.0% turnout)
    > Accession to the International Monetary Fund = 55.8% For

    AND next month
    27 October
    > Privatization of Radio Liechtenstein

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Liechtenstein_referendums
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,012

    nico679 said:

    The Siena /New York Times for Arizona poll looks questionable.

    The last poll was done before the debate which Harris clearly won , she was leading 50-45 in Arizona .

    Now those figures are reversed .

    In terms of NC it’s the turnout weighting which gives Trump a lead . In terms of NC and Robinson , if he withdraws then a new candidate won’t be named on the ballot , so voters will have to understand that a vote for Robinson is for the new candidate.

    Trump has plenty of quiet support, and potentially in all the right places.
    How do you know ?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,630
    Dopermean said:

    MattW said:

    Interest little 7 minute video from cycling-urbanist Youtuber Shifter who has been to the "Worst Cycle Lane in the World" aka The Giant Slalom (Franz Klammer would love it) on Leith Walk in Edinburgh.

    He's a bit naif and Yankee about it, and makes the mistake of swallowing what he has been told about the Council & the politics (like the Dodgy Landlord in Parliament they blame the contractor, having signed the bloody contract themselves).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mOMe-ZXeoY

    There are some really shit cycle lanes, one near me shifts from being at road level to slightly above to pavement level, with a tiny beveled kerb for the just above road level stretch. It is very difficult to discern visually and could easily result in losing the front wheel and crashing in front of a motor vehicle while doing sweet FA to deter cars from driving onto the cycle lane.
    As a confident cyclist I'm much happier with a bit of paint on the road than most of the "safer" cycle lanes.
    Problems aside, Edinburgh's segregated cycle lanes have induced a big increase in cycling and reduced the number of casualties where they are present.

    I think Active Travel England (MattW will confirm I'm sure) have some evidence that painted cycle lanes actually increase the number of casualties. I assume that's because they induce a "my lane, your lane" response from drivers, leading to more close passes. Certainly my experience.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,339
    theakes said:

    Staring to look like a continual steady drift to Harris, Trump has mentioned the possibility of defeat twice in the last few days. By the time of election day the Electoral College may look like a bit of landslide for Harris and the Democrats.
    Trouble with US polling is that some organisations involved are favourable to one side or the other. Yet even there Trafalgar have been showing Harris just ahead nationally and very close or a tie in some spots Georgia etc.
    Harris has the momentum and betting on Trump is probably a distinct loser.

    How do you define an electoral college landslide?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,224
    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    Dura_Ace said:

    Had a board meeting this morning. Midlands manufacturers give Reeves the thumbs down.

    Based.
    We have factories in exciting places such as Hull and Hartlepool and the Board has LD and Labour on it. So biased in so far as she is shit and should go.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,630

    Dura_Ace said:

    Had a board meeting this morning. Midlands manufacturers give Reeves the thumbs down.

    Based.
    We have factories in exciting places such as Hull and Hartlepool and the Board has LD and Labour on it. So biased in so far as she is shit and should go.
    That wasn't a typo from DA. He was being sarcastic.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    edited September 23
    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,224

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    “Cashmere or silk?”
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    I'm waiting for the budget - but I expect to be seriously disappointed..
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 179

    carnforth said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    Termination at Old Oak Common was a suggested option taken seriously at several points of the development of HS2, if I remember correctly. Falling back to it now may be a short-sighted money-saving exercise, but it's not out of left field.
    My view - Either connect it directly to St Pancras and the international trains or it doesn't matter where in London as long as plenty of tube/Crossrail links.
    It would be lovely but as a percentage of demand, onward travel to Europe, and remember you are still changing, going through immigration etc, would be tiny.
    It's hard to imagine how they would find the space at St Pancras either unless they were planning on knocking the British Library down.

    The plan was always (within reason) Old Oak Common AND Euston, it was not an either or.

    Rough numbers were 1/3 disembark at OOC and the rest on to Euston. I think that over egged the OOC numbers due to Heathrow which is in itself out of capacity.

    If it doesn't go to Euston then what was the point of making it high speed ?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    I'm waiting for the budget - but I expect to be seriously disappointed..
    She's trying to be upbeat about austerity.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,393
    Nigelb said:

    nico679 said:

    The Siena /New York Times for Arizona poll looks questionable.

    The last poll was done before the debate which Harris clearly won , she was leading 50-45 in Arizona .

    Now those figures are reversed .

    In terms of NC it’s the turnout weighting which gives Trump a lead . In terms of NC and Robinson , if he withdraws then a new candidate won’t be named on the ballot , so voters will have to understand that a vote for Robinson is for the new candidate.

    Trump has plenty of quiet support, and potentially in all the right places.
    How do you know ?
    The latest polling in some of the sunshine states, and the tightness of Pennsylvania.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,004
    edited September 23

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    New

    Reeves enjoyed a week holiday in Padstow in July gifted to her by Richard Parker, Labour donor and now mayor of West Midlands and while logging her stay, she omitted her family members enjoyed the stay which benefit has to be declared
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274

    Nigelb said:

    nico679 said:

    The Siena /New York Times for Arizona poll looks questionable.

    The last poll was done before the debate which Harris clearly won , she was leading 50-45 in Arizona .

    Now those figures are reversed .

    In terms of NC it’s the turnout weighting which gives Trump a lead . In terms of NC and Robinson , if he withdraws then a new candidate won’t be named on the ballot , so voters will have to understand that a vote for Robinson is for the new candidate.

    Trump has plenty of quiet support, and potentially in all the right places.
    How do you know ?
    The latest polling in some of the sunshine states, and the tightness of Pennsylvania.
    In 2020 in general pollsters under estimated Trump in the swing states , in 2022 they under estimated the Dems .

    So hard to know what’s going to happen this time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,224

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    New

    Reeves enjoyed a week holiday in Padstow in July gifted to her by Richard Parker, Labour donor and now mayor of West Midlands and while logging her stay, she omitted her family members enjoyed the stay which benefit has to be declared
    This is possibly going to end in resignations
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,864

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    New

    Reeves enjoyed a week holiday in Padstow in July gifted to her by Richard Parker, Labour donor and now mayor of West Midlands and while logging her stay, she omitted her family members enjoyed the stay which benefit has to be declared
    Hardly a hanging offence in all honesty. I didn't realise family members had to be included in the register of MP's expenses. I'm not entirely sure why.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,630
    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    The budget is massive. The frustration of 14 years opposition and this stuttering start in government will explode if it's anything but a banger.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    New

    Reeves enjoyed a week holiday in Padstow in July gifted to her by Richard Parker, Labour donor and now mayor of West Midlands and while logging her stay, she omitted her family members enjoyed the stay which benefit has to be declared
    Padstow.

    The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

    The laid off HS2 workers will be installing the ZiL lanes London so desperately needs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    Okay, so it looks like these “Russian teens got offered money on Telegram to set fire to helicopters” stories from a couple of weeks ago, might be spreading around the country.

    https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1838223973051404409

    Ukranian infiltration of Russian social media channels?

    The suggestion is that they’re paying Russian kids somewhere in the $10k range, through some sort of crypto transaction, to sabotage military aircraft at their local airfield. But that yes they are paying it, so more kids are signing up to Puck Futin.
  • kenObikenObi Posts: 179
    carnforth said:

    HS2 makes no sense without at least Euston and Phase 2a.

    If HMG aren't going to do either they may as well down tools today and blow up the tunnels and viaducts already built because the rest is a total waste of time.

    You're closer to it than I am, both politically and professionally.

    What the hell was Sunak thinking?
    Termination at Old Oak Common was a suggested option taken seriously at several points of the development of HS2, if I remember correctly. Falling back to it now may be a short-sighted money-saving exercise, but it's not out of left field.
    Old Oak Common has some good points, connection to Heathrow (10-15 mins), West End (10 mins), Liverpool Street (20 mins), however here is a little prediction to revisit sometime in the 2030's...

    The Elizabeth Line will not be able to cope with the volume of passengers if HS2 terminates at Old Oak Common.

    We will be doing the okey cokey with exhortations to return to offices over home working, just to relieve the pressure. Which puts the cart in from of the horse somewhat.
  • stodge said:

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    New

    Reeves enjoyed a week holiday in Padstow in July gifted to her by Richard Parker, Labour donor and now mayor of West Midlands and while logging her stay, she omitted her family members enjoyed the stay which benefit has to be declared
    Hardly a hanging offence in all honesty. I didn't realise family members had to be included in the register of MP's expenses. I'm not entirely sure why.
    Seems it is similar to Rayner who didn't declare Sam Tarry stayed with her in New York
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,764
    On Old Oak Common (1 of 2) - this article from the i last year was a good summary of the situation:

    https://inews.co.uk/news/hs2-journey-times-route-scaled-back-london-longer-elizabeth-line-2111667

    It’s worth reflecting that while this would be bad for journey times from Manchester to Central London, it would be worse for journey times from commuter locations east of Old Oak Common, for whom Elizabeth Line trains would likely be too full to board; and perhaps for commuters from places like Reading and Swindon interchanging to the Elizabeth Line at Paddington, for the same reason.
  • stodge said:

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    " difficult decisions" Rachel Reeves has taken

    -should I get the dress or the trouser suit ?
    - should I ask Lord Alli to buy the shoes too ?
    New

    Reeves enjoyed a week holiday in Padstow in July gifted to her by Richard Parker, Labour donor and now mayor of West Midlands and while logging her stay, she omitted her family members enjoyed the stay which benefit has to be declared
    Hardly a hanging offence in all honesty. I didn't realise family members had to be included in the register of MP's expenses. I'm not entirely sure why.
    I do agree but then the rules are the rules and it just adds to the freebie stories
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    mercator said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The PB lefties seem to be taking the Total Shittiness of the Starmer Government quite badly

    I guess it must be painful tho. 14 years of hope and waiting and all that patiently invested faith, and then… THIS

    It's not that bad because I didn't have high hopes going in to it.

    Also, so far, the largest decision of substance has been on cutting WFA, and given where I think the country is at the moment - budget deficit too large, but need to increase investment spending - that definitely has the air of a decision that was so right it should have been done years ago.

    Obviously it's great that PB Righties have been able to take to the pleasures of opposition so quickly and with so much enthusiasm. Right-wingers railing at a Labour government just feels like the natural order of things. You Righties were desperate to be in opposition for years.
    Yes some truth in that. Being in opposition is quite fun - you can really put the boot in. And Labour present quite the target

    I’m still surprised by the tantrum-throwing despondency of some PB lefties, however
    Their plight is explained by Kubler Ross on stages of grief. KR is about responses to SHOCK, not death. It's about how people in their 40s with no apparent health issues respond to "I wouldn't start reading any long novels" diagnoses. That's not the Tory party, which died in a hospice in July, to almost everyone's relief, after 3 years in and out of hospital. Not a shock. Starmer and Co's couldn't-make-it-up levels of cynical incompetence: huge shock, not just to the left but to anyone who was sort of hoping to be competently governed for five minutes. But the non-left have the compensation of at least getting a good laugh out of it.
    Yes, you could be right

    Also I am getting serious anger at HMG from my lefty friends. Last night (as I mentioned on here) one of my oldest Labour-voting friends was spitting venom about the stupidity of Starmer and Co, he didn't even wait for me to tease him about it: he launched right in. And a glimpse at the BTL comments on the Guardian, today, beneath the rolling blog about Reeves, offers quite the spectacle. The Labour lefties are furious about the austerity and WFA and all that, and the Blairities are furious about the grift and incompetence
    The budget is massive. The frustration of 14 years opposition and this stuttering start in government will explode if it's anything but a banger.
    Very good !!!!!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392


    Ed Miliband

    "We believe the British people have the right to own and benefit from our natural resources "

    which is why were closing down the North Sea

    War is peace, freedom is slavery , ignorance is strength
This discussion has been closed.