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I am speechless, utterly speechless – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,179
edited September 29 in General
I am speechless, utterly speechless – politicalbetting.com

An incredible claim in Sir Anthony Seldon's biography of Liz Truss:She, according to the book, considered "stopping cancer treatment on the NHS" as a way of filling the financial blackholeAn adviser is said to have replied, "is she being serious?”https://t.co/xRhY7kDbr2 pic.twitter.com/8zDJfJrlio

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Comments

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    And I am first
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,536
    edited August 28
    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209
    The good thing about Liz Truss is she only lasted 49 days before being swept into the dustbin of history.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474
    edited August 28
    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    On topic, why are you shocked? Truss is incredibly stupid and has no empathy at all. You can just imagine she would think shoring up her position as PM to reverse a disaster she had caused would be more important than a load of people she didn't know and she would assume would die anyway soon.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,847
    @Luckyguy1983 is going to be livid with you @TheScreamingEagles 😮
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    FF43 said:

    The good thing about Liz Truss is she only lasted 49 days before being swept into the dustbin of history.

    Hurrah for the Tory party and the markets.

    It gives me great reassurance that if Starmer comes up with some truly idiotic economic policies the markets will put him back in his box.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    On topic, usually I'd say I doubt this is true, and politically motivated, particularly since civil servants do put forth crazy options, but with Truss who knows.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,074
    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    Read the small print in your cone-tract
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    Is there a market on the number of PBers with a poster of Liz Truss on their bedroom wall?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,536
    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    I picked up all of the BBC Shakespeare DVD for pennies on eBay. Plan to watch them once I retire at the end of the year
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,405
    It’s not a bad idea, really.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the number of PBers with a poster of Liz Truss on their bedroom wall?

    Including or excluding the ones using it as a dartboard?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,030
    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the number of PBers with a poster of Liz Truss on their bedroom wall?

    And how many of them are Sean
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    Question: why is it commentators who are most agitated about free speech, that are also most keen on governments that allow their citizens essentially no free speech?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474
    edited August 28

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    Thing about Thatcher was, she believed in hard work and she believed in understanding the subject before she made a decision. Which meant, even if some of her decisions were not perhaps very wise decisions, at least they had been thought through and were not usually completely catastrophic.

    She was also willing to listen to reasoned advice as long as it was based on facts and evidence, even if it wasn't what she intended to do to start with.

    Liz Truss, by contrast, was completely ignorant of every brief she ever had in government, never bothered to learn a subject before she threw herself bodily into it, and appears to have been extremely lazy and ill prepared for everything she did (remember the Rostov fiasco? Or the cheese nonsense)?

    Anyone comparing Truss to Thatcher has not bothered to look hard enough at what Truss was really like.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    Sean_F said:

    It’s not a bad idea, really.

    You are Aldous Huxley, and I claim my £5.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    Nigelb said:

    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.

    Actually... You're Aldous Huxley.

    Damn it, they're everywhere.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474
    Nigelb said:

    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.

    Even if it was meant just as a 'think the unthinkable' piece of idiocy, it was still a piece of idiocy. For the very good and obvious reason that somebody would inevitably leak it and she would look like a complete twit.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    It's like pop music; whatever happens in your teenage years is formative. For Generation Truss, that was late Thatcher. Tax cuts, being brought down by traitors, increasing Euroscepticism.

    Early Thatcher- tax rises to balance the budget, pragmatism about giving unions what they demanded, the Single Market- that was all ancient history for aged squares.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    Trump's asked Brian Kemp to cement their new Bromance by going everywhere with him?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Sargeant out, Colapinto in:
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/breaking-f2-racer-colapinto-replaces-sargeant-at-williams-for-rest-of-2024.2CghqWgB0vxJoZK8wWoMPj

    I've seen a few comments hoping that anyone he makes contact with doesn't suffer death threats, as apparently happened in F2.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    edited August 28

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    It's like pop music; whatever happens in your teenage years is formative. For Generation Truss, that was late Thatcher. Tax cuts, being brought down by traitors, increasing Euroscepticism.

    Early Thatcher- tax rises to balance the budget, pragmatism about giving unions what they demanded, the Single Market- that was all ancient history for aged squares.
    Though concern about environmental issues was also late Thatcher, and that bit is also conveniently forgotten.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    Stopping NHS cancer treatment would be an extreme example of Truss' ultra libertarian philosophy and desire to slash the state. Would have been immoral and hugely unpopular as I am sure even she would ultimately have realised
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    FF43 said:

    The good thing about Liz Truss is she only lasted 49 days before being swept into the dustbin of history.

    She also even lost her seat on the biggest swing this century
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Sargeant out, Colapinto in:
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/breaking-f2-racer-colapinto-replaces-sargeant-at-williams-for-rest-of-2024.2CghqWgB0vxJoZK8wWoMPj

    I've seen a few comments hoping that anyone he makes contact with doesn't suffer death threats, as apparently happened in F2.

    To be fair Nicholas Latifi received quite a few death threats for his part in the disgrace of Abu Dhabi 2021,
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Sargeant out, Colapinto in:
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/breaking-f2-racer-colapinto-replaces-sargeant-at-williams-for-rest-of-2024.2CghqWgB0vxJoZK8wWoMPj

    I've seen a few comments hoping that anyone he makes contact with doesn't suffer death threats, as apparently happened in F2.

    I've little idea why Williams chose Colapinto; he wasn't really on my radar as an F1 prospect. It is money, I assume.

    But I don't think I've seen such negativity over a newly-signed driver since Marzipan signed for Haas. In the latter case, the negative ninnies were correct.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 28
    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Mr. Eagles, which is also nuts.

    If he'd made the crash a few laps earlier then the same result would've happened, without the controversial/wrong decision on the restart. Mercedes did get the strategy wrong.

    Mr. Jessop, someone I know elsewhere suggested that Sargeant would be axed and replaced with Antonelli, which would seem to make more sense.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Sargeant out, Colapinto in:
    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/breaking-f2-racer-colapinto-replaces-sargeant-at-williams-for-rest-of-2024.2CghqWgB0vxJoZK8wWoMPj

    I've seen a few comments hoping that anyone he makes contact with doesn't suffer death threats, as apparently happened in F2.

    I've little idea why Williams chose Colapinto; he wasn't really on my radar as an F1 prospect. It is money, I assume.

    But I don't think I've seen such negativity over a newly-signed driver since Marzipan signed for Haas. In the latter case, the negative ninnies were correct.
    He did run one practice session for Williams at Silverstone a couple of months ago, but he didn’t really seem to be on anyone’s radar before the announcement. Fair play to team boss James Vowles for taking a risk on a rookie though, good to see a new name coming up from F2.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the number of PBers with a poster of Liz Truss on their bedroom wall?

    And how many of them are Sean
    LuckyGuy you mean
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.

    Even if it was meant just as a 'think the unthinkable' piece of idiocy, it was still a piece of idiocy. For the very good and obvious reason that somebody would inevitably leak it and she would look like a complete twit.
    Oh, I'm not defending any of it.
    Just musing about whether or not the story is in the slightest bit credible.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.

    Even if it was meant just as a 'think the unthinkable' piece of idiocy, it was still a piece of idiocy. For the very good and obvious reason that somebody would inevitably leak it and she would look like a complete twit.
    Selling a couple of nuclear subs to North Korea would make more electoral sense.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    'Journalist' ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    kjh said:

    @Luckyguy1983 is going to be livid with you @TheScreamingEagles 😮

    Not at all.
    It's a chance to put the story to bed once and for all. I'm sure he'll be very grateful.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    Looking forward, one of the challenges the Conservatives have is coming up with a shared story about the Truss days. At the moment, the gap between those who think the disaster was electing her and those who think the disaster was dumping her is just too big.

    Going back to Thatcher, hardly anyone holds a candle for the Community Charge now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.

    Even if it was meant just as a 'think the unthinkable' piece of idiocy, it was still a piece of idiocy. For the very good and obvious reason that somebody would inevitably leak it and she would look like a complete twit.
    Oh, I'm not defending any of it.
    Just musing about whether or not the story is in the slightest bit credible.
    The fact she's so ****ing incompetent and politically naive is the main reason it is credible. She seems to be one of these people who has all the answers, and doesn't care if people tell her they're stupid answers. She is right, and they're wrong.

    Witness the way she's behaved since she left No. 10.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Stopping NHS cancer treatment would be an extreme example of Truss' ultra libertarian philosophy and desire to slash the state. Would have been immoral and hugely unpopular as I am sure even she would ultimately have realised

    It may have taken a large number of resignations from the cabinet to get it through to her though.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,433
    edited August 28

    Looking forward, one of the challenges the Conservatives have is coming up with a shared story about the Truss days. At the moment, the gap between those who think the disaster was electing her and those who think the disaster was dumping her is just too big.

    Going back to Thatcher, hardly anyone holds a candle for the Community Charge now.

    But you can see why the community charge was decided upon, revaluing rates was a massive complex job so a cheaper solution was sought. And the idea had some (albeit not much) rational behind it, more people in a house more people should pay their share.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    The third is that people who take a serious amateur* interest in politics tend to be weird and quite unrepresentative of those who just vote for the slate.

    I mean, look at PB…

    *the professionals are often just as bad, on the other hand.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    Indeed the first years of Thatcherism included tax rises, tight spending, and pay rises for the public sector. Tax cuts, deregulation of the City and the Single Market were late features. Of course history doesn't repeat, but she did the hard stuff first.

    We are suffering now from the mendacious campaign run by both major parties, both the Tories unfunded NI cuts, and the pledges on Triple Lock, income tax etc. Neither party was being realistic and stupid to tie the hands of the next CoE. It means that they are left fiddling with added complexity rather than the straightforward.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cancer treatment is somewhere between 5 and 6% of NHS spending.
    So the numbers fit. But the story sounds ridiculous. How would you go about stopping it ?
    No diagnosis ?
    That would mean letting people die of easy and relatively cheap to treat cancers.
    No treatment also means no research; goodbye another sector of the Pharma industry.
    No palliative care ? Really ?

    It would be far easier, be about as ethical - and save far more money - to just bring in a blanket euthanasia policy for the sick elderly.

    I guess it's just about possible that she raised it as a metaphorical prompt to think the unthinkable, without meaning it literally. Which would be very odd, but just about believable.
    But as a serious suggestion ? I call BS.

    Even if it was meant just as a 'think the unthinkable' piece of idiocy, it was still a piece of idiocy. For the very good and obvious reason that somebody would inevitably leak it and she would look like a complete twit.
    Oh, I'm not defending any of it.
    Just musing about whether or not the story is in the slightest bit credible.
    The fact she's so ****ing incompetent and politically naive is the main reason it is credible. She seems to be one of these people who has all the answers, and doesn't care if people tell her they're stupid answers. She is right, and they're wrong.

    Witness the way she's behaved since she left No. 10.
    she is of course right that there are two sides to every argument.

    There is a Truss side.

    And there is the right side.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    'Journalist' ?
    She actually has a pretty impressive CV

    Spent a decade practising law, then worked for ABC, Fox, and NBC news channels, now has a daily show on SiriusXM

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megyn_Kelly
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    'Journalist' ?
    She's such a snowflake.

    Megyn Kelly freaks out over column calling Kamala Harris’s husband a ‘sex symbol’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/megyn-kelly-kamala-harris-doug-emhoff-b2602421.html
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    It's no 'Tampon Tim' or 'Kamabla'.
    She should leave it to the master.
  • ajbajb Posts: 147
    It sounds almost like the civil servants had twigged how dumb she was, and wanted her to "fail fast".

    The mind boggles as to what might have happened if such a policy had been announced. At the very least I would have expected large spontaneous demonstrations at no 10.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474
    As a matter of urgency, the Republicans need to get someone into interviews with Trump.

    He's now claiming he won California but a false result was entered.

    https://x.com/harris_wins/status/1828605704405688478
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    HYUFD said:

    Stopping NHS cancer treatment would be an extreme example of Truss' ultra libertarian philosophy and desire to slash the state. Would have been immoral and hugely unpopular as I am sure even she would ultimately have realised

    Everyone has to die sometime as one PBer opined about COVID struck crinklies.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    They make a great double act, with real chemistry. Harris is right to get the maximum mileage from him.

    Anyone who can go viral talking of guttering is a star:

    https://x.com/Tim_Walz/status/1828550176488722635?t=Qmwdmn8hoC7uhILd5571kQ&s=19
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,030

    Looking forward, one of the challenges the Conservatives have is coming up with a shared story about the Truss days. At the moment, the gap between those who think the disaster was electing her and those who think the disaster was dumping her is just too big.

    The same is true of BoZo.

    Cameron knew he would be a disaster.

    Nadine still pines for him.

    Cameron was right. The party hasn't caught up yet.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,030
    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    There is a parallel with Truss and Trump

    Republican politicians don't want him, know he is a liability, but the people who vote in the primaries want him for some reason.

    Truss was cosplaying Thatcher.

    Trump is cosplaying what, exactly???
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Foxy said:

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    Indeed the first years of Thatcherism included tax rises, tight spending, and pay rises for the public sector. Tax cuts, deregulation of the City and the Single Market were late features. Of course history doesn't repeat, but she did the hard stuff first.

    We are suffering now from the mendacious campaign run by both major parties, both the Tories unfunded NI cuts, and the pledges on Triple Lock, income tax etc. Neither party was being realistic and stupid to tie the hands of the next CoE. It means that they are left fiddling with added complexity rather than the straightforward.
    There were some things she did early - scrapping exchange controls in 1979, for instance.
    Just as Labour might legislate significant planning reform this year.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,176
    "We've been told that..." is hearsay, not evidence. Much as I dislike Truss it is difficult to believe she would consider such a thing. But I am looking forward to reading the book to find out. :)
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,847
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sorry to go off topic, but overnight Harris has booked her first interview. Will be with CNN in Georgia, tomorrow, a joint effort with Walz as part of their tour.

    Biden also to campaign with her in Pennsylvania next week.

    Conservative journalist Megyn Kelly managed to get “emotional support governor” trending in the US.

    https://x.com/megynkelly/status/1828126826905899515
    They make a great double act, with real chemistry. Harris is right to get the maximum mileage from him.

    Anyone who can go viral talking of guttering is a star:

    https://x.com/Tim_Walz/status/1828550176488722635?t=Qmwdmn8hoC7uhILd5571kQ&s=19
    That is very good. He really was a good pick.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,074

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    There is a parallel with Truss and Trump

    Republican politicians don't want him, know he is a liability, but the people who vote in the primaries want him for some reason.

    Truss was cosplaying Thatcher.

    Trump is cosplaying what, exactly???
    Mussolini ?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    There is a parallel with Truss and Trump

    Republican politicians don't want him, know he is a liability, but the people who vote in the primaries want him for some reason.

    Truss was cosplaying Thatcher.

    Trump is cosplaying what, exactly???
    Mussolini?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809
    There's always a tweet, and this one deserves another outing:


  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    There is a parallel with Truss and Trump

    Republican politicians don't want him, know he is a liability, but the people who vote in the primaries want him for some reason.

    Truss was cosplaying Thatcher.

    Trump is cosplaying what, exactly???
    Trump isn't cosplaying. He is Trump, for worse or worse.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    The fly episode is what happens when you’ve totally blown your budget and are an episode short, you need to produce a really cheap hour of TV somehow. Two actors, one camera, one existing location…
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the number of PBers with a poster of Liz Truss on their bedroom wall?

    Does it correlate well with the amount of posters who play darts in their bedroom perhaps?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209
    viewcode said:

    "We've been told that..." is hearsay, not evidence. Much as I dislike Truss it is difficult to believe she would consider such a thing. But I am looking forward to reading the book to find out. :)

    To be fair to @Luckyguy1983 we don't know how serious Liz Truss was about cutting cancer care despite credible reporting she did discuss it. I suspect not very serious. But she seems to have been very serious about suddenly and drastically cutting public expenditure. The suggested cancer care cuts illustrate the impossibility of doing this without severe consequences. Truss never seems to have accepted this consequence, as evidenced by her comments since.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Fascinating thread by NYT Pitchbot guy (who apparently works in academia).

    https://x.com/DougJBalloon/status/1828611337783595071
    ...Nearly all of the administrators who have taken the side of my narcissistic sociopath coworker are liberals. Some work in DEI. Many give their pronouns. They all listen to NPR. The whole nine.

    So why do they take the side of a narcissistic sociopath with a long history of abuse and harassment? Part of it is that they believe in the principle of both sides.

    I was once at a meeting with one where the sociopath told a series of lies that the administrated nodded along with and expressed sympathy for. After the meeting, I asked the administrator why he had had gone a long with a series of things I had told him earlier were false.

    He answered that it was because he was trained in a kind of a conflict resolution technique where you “affirmed” (his words) everything anyone said. I asked him if he thought that was appropriate with someone who was a pathological liar.

    He said he had never thought about it but that maybe it wasn’t. That’s how deep the bothsiding ran, it was literally part of the process that this administrator ran on every conflict, regardless of the facts and the personalities involved.

    Another reason the administration takes the sociopath’s side is that they don’t feel they can do anything about him. So it’s easier to decide he’s not really as bad as we say..




  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    There is a parallel with Truss and Trump

    Republican politicians don't want him, know he is a liability, but the people who vote in the primaries want him for some reason.

    Truss was cosplaying Thatcher.

    Trump is cosplaying what, exactly???
    Trump isn't cosplaying. He is Trump, for worse or worse.
    If you play a role for long enough, you tend to become it, though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    HYUFD said:

    Stopping NHS cancer treatment would be an extreme example of Truss' ultra libertarian philosophy and desire to slash the state. Would have been immoral and hugely unpopular as I am sure even she would ultimately have realised

    Everyone has to die sometime as one PBer opined about COVID struck crinklies.
    Well, you can see where HYUFD's client vote lies. Or lay.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007
    edited August 28

    ydoethur said:

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    Thing about Thatcher was, she believed in hard work and she believed in understanding the subject before she made a decision. Which meant, even if some of her decisions were not perhaps very wise decisions, at least they had been thought through and were not usually completely catastrophic.

    She was also willing to listen to reasoned advice as long as it was based on facts and evidence, even if it wasn't what she intended to do to start with.

    Liz Truss, by contrast, was completely ignorant of every brief she ever had in government, never bothered to learn a subject before she threw herself bodily into it, and appears to have been extremely lazy and ill prepared for everything she did (remember the Rostov fiasco? Or the cheese nonsense)?

    Anyone comparing Truss to Thatcher has not bothered to look hard enough at what Truss was really like.
    I go back to the AIDS crisis.

    Thatcher wanted it to be a moral campaign, Norman Fowler wanted it to be a practical campaign.

    The cabinet outvoted Thatcher and she accepted it and backed the policy both publicly and privately.

    I cannot see Liz Truss doing that.
    Same with the ozone layer. Though I rather think (memory is dim) she didn't need the initial diversion into morality, tbf.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    Which shows how dumb they were.

    The biggest problem we have is we don't have MPs of the calibre of her and her cabinet in politics anymore.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    The fly episode is what happens when you’ve totally blown your budget and are an episode short, you need to produce a really cheap hour of TV somehow. Two actors, one camera, one existing location…
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BottleEpisode
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    I'd have sworn ‘revenge is a dish best served cold’ was from Shakespeare.

    I'm genuinely shocked that he missed creating that phrase; what a second-rater, eh?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,411
    viewcode said:

    "We've been told that..." is hearsay, not evidence. Much as I dislike Truss it is difficult to believe she would consider such a thing. But I am looking forward to reading the book to find out. :)

    I'd tend to analyse that he other way !

    Liz Truss is such a fruitloop that it is *exactly* the kind of thing she would try and do. That it is inconceivable in the UK, utterly impractical politically, and impossible due to no mechanism existing all being entirely irrelevant.

    If it was 1961 LT would fly to the moon by fiat; she would simply issue a press release containing an Executive Decision that it she had done it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    rcs1000 said:

    Is there a market on the number of PBers with a poster of Liz Truss on their bedroom wall?

    Including or excluding the ones using it as a dartboard?
    And do bedsits count?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,896
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557

    Looking forward, one of the challenges the Conservatives have is coming up with a shared story about the Truss days. At the moment, the gap between those who think the disaster was electing her and those who think the disaster was dumping her is just too big.

    Going back to Thatcher, hardly anyone holds a candle for the Community Charge now.

    The Community Charge would be fine, were it a very low amount.

    The TV licence is effectively a poll tax, as are many bills and basic subscriptions, but it doesn't wash when it gets substantial.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007
    MattW said:

    viewcode said:

    "We've been told that..." is hearsay, not evidence. Much as I dislike Truss it is difficult to believe she would consider such a thing. But I am looking forward to reading the book to find out. :)

    I'd tend to analyse that he other way !

    Liz Truss is such a fruitloop that it is *exactly* the kind of thing she would try and do. That it is inconceivable in the UK, utterly impractical politically, and impossible due to no mechanism existing all being entirely irrelevant.

    If it was 1961 LT would fly to the moon by fiat; she would simply issue a press release containing an Executive Decision that it she had done it.
    Though she'd benefit from having Blue Streak and the Woomera launchpads already preparing, thanks to the previous administration. Admittedly the ELDO space launcher version would have been scrapped because European.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    Never seen it. I get bored of long series like that.

    Watched first five seasons of 24 and then gave up when it got very silly and the twists became predictable.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,169
    Wait. Liz Truss had a plan to cure cancer? Truly the Messiah.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    Morning all :)

    It's an interesting discussion - not Truss of course - but the truth that Margaret Thatcher of all people introduced tax rises (VAT) in 1981 while reducing direct taxation (income tax cut from 33% to 30%) as well as maintaining and even extending the draconian spending cuts forced on Healey by the IMF.

    Reducing the deficit is too often portrayed simply as cutting spending with cutting taxes argued by the Lafferites as a rationale for economic growth (basically Truss/Kwarteng).

    Given the latter won't fly in the 2020s, we have the former. The scope of VAT has changed since its initial introduction as a "luxury goods tax" (extending into Services now of course). Its issues for those having to act as unpaid tax collectors for the Government are well known and perhaps it's time to stop calling a spade a garden implement and have a proper discussion about its scope and value.

    If Howe (and even Osborne) saw the benefit of raising VAT could we see 25% VAT in the near future?

    Getting the balance right between tax increases (which nobody likes) and spending cuts (which nobody likes) is why Chancellors are rarely popular political figures - Rishi Sunak (who apparently one or two miss having as Prime Minister, there's always someone who yearns for the "good old days") achieved popularitym by throwing money like confetti and is a big part of where we are now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    Nigelb said:

    Fascinating thread by NYT Pitchbot guy (who apparently works in academia).

    https://x.com/DougJBalloon/status/1828611337783595071
    ...Nearly all of the administrators who have taken the side of my narcissistic sociopath coworker are liberals. Some work in DEI. Many give their pronouns. They all listen to NPR. The whole nine.

    So why do they take the side of a narcissistic sociopath with a long history of abuse and harassment? Part of it is that they believe in the principle of both sides.

    I was once at a meeting with one where the sociopath told a series of lies that the administrated nodded along with and expressed sympathy for. After the meeting, I asked the administrator why he had had gone a long with a series of things I had told him earlier were false.

    He answered that it was because he was trained in a kind of a conflict resolution technique where you “affirmed” (his words) everything anyone said. I asked him if he thought that was appropriate with someone who was a pathological liar.

    He said he had never thought about it but that maybe it wasn’t. That’s how deep the bothsiding ran, it was literally part of the process that this administrator ran on every conflict, regardless of the facts and the personalities involved.

    Another reason the administration takes the sociopath’s side is that they don’t feel they can do anything about him. So it’s easier to decide he’s not really as bad as we say..

    There are several assumptions there. Firstly, that the poster is correct that the coworker really is narcissistic and sociopathic. Secondly, that the people he is talking about are actually liberals, and not just people he classes as 'liberals' because he evidently doesn't like some of the things they say or do.

    The post reeks of : "I really don't like this guy, and anyone who doesn't agree with me about him is a LIBERAL!!!!!"

    It might just be that the 'bothsiding' is happening because he is in the wrong, not his target.

    Yes, I am, in a way, bothsiding this. ;)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    Sort of on topic, the real savings are probably in the types of treatment and care than extend, say, the life of a 85 year old in poor health by 18-24 months in slightly less poor health but with chronic conditions and in some pain, before they diminish again and die. And that won't be just cancer treatment, and nor will it be cheap.

    I'm not sure how you'd quantity that, though, or deprioritise over a childhood or mainstream working adult cancer because you then start to go against the hypocratic oath.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    Never seen it. I get bored of long series like that.

    Watched first five seasons of 24 and then gave up when it got very silly and the twists became predictable.
    The first few seasons of 24 were some of the best TV ever made up to that point.

    It did all get a little silly towards the end though, as so often happens with popular shows.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Truss is another reason why leadership of the Parliamentary parties should not be outsourced to the wider membership of any party.

    The first reason is it’s essentially unconstitutional. The PM is supposed to be the person who commands the confidence of the majority of the House. Truss didn’t. (Neither did Corbyn have the confidence of his Parliamentary party but failed to get a majority even against TMay).

    The second reason is that people who pay however much it costs to join a political party (any party) tend to represent a narrow part of public opinion.

    There is a parallel with Truss and Trump

    Republican politicians don't want him, know he is a liability, but the people who vote in the primaries want him for some reason.

    Truss was cosplaying Thatcher.

    Trump is cosplaying what, exactly???
    Trump isn't cosplaying. He is Trump, for worse or worse.
    If you play a role for long enough, you tend to become it, though.
    Nah, its not a role he is playing, just him. He has always been a narcissistic, annoying, spoilt, bullying toddler. Some people, many people even, say he is the most narcissistic, annoying, spoilt toddler EVER.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    Never seen it. I get bored of long series like that.

    Watched first five seasons of 24 and then gave up when it got very silly and the twists became predictable.
    With you on that Casino. A lot of these shows have a good first series, then they just go on and on. I soon get to the stage where I really don't give a shit what happens.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,169
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It's an interesting discussion - not Truss of course - but the truth that Margaret Thatcher of all people introduced tax rises (VAT) in 1981 while reducing direct taxation (income tax cut from 33% to 30%) as well as maintaining and even extending the draconian spending cuts forced on Healey by the IMF.

    Reducing the deficit is too often portrayed simply as cutting spending with cutting taxes argued by the Lafferites as a rationale for economic growth (basically Truss/Kwarteng).

    Given the latter won't fly in the 2020s, we have the former. The scope of VAT has changed since its initial introduction as a "luxury goods tax" (extending into Services now of course). Its issues for those having to act as unpaid tax collectors for the Government are well known and perhaps it's time to stop calling a spade a garden implement and have a proper discussion about its scope and value.

    If Howe (and even Osborne) saw the benefit of raising VAT could we see 25% VAT in the near future?

    Getting the balance right between tax increases (which nobody likes) and spending cuts (which nobody likes) is why Chancellors are rarely popular political figures - Rishi Sunak (who apparently one or two miss having as Prime Minister, there's always someone who yearns for the "good old days") achieved popularitym by throwing money like confetti and is a big part of where we are now.

    An argument can be made for (a reformed form of) VAT as the ultimate in progressive taxation. And tax avoidance is hard if you hold the retailer responsible, now we mostly use electronic transactions.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    The fly episode is what happens when you’ve totally blown your budget and are an episode short, you need to produce a really cheap hour of TV somehow. Two actors, one camera, one existing location…
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BottleEpisode
    Bottle episodes are still better than clip shows.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    biggles said:

    Wait. Liz Truss had a plan to cure cancer? Truly the Messiah.

    Once the medics had all their funding cut for cancer treatment, they'd soon have come up with a simple cure.

    It's a bit like cutting taxes for bankers to make them work harder.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,169

    Sort of on topic, the real savings are probably in the types of treatment and care than extend, say, the life of a 85 year old in poor health by 18-24 months in slightly less poor health but with chronic conditions and in some pain, before they diminish again and die. And that won't be just cancer treatment, and nor will it be cheap.

    I'm not sure how you'd quantity that, though, or deprioritise over a childhood or mainstream working adult cancer because you then start to go against the hypocratic oath.

    A combination of Logan’s Run and Soylent Green would fix this problem, address climate change, and make us self sufficient in food.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    Is the drug kingpin industry known to be an equal opportunities one?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    Is the drug kingpin industry known to be an equal opportunities one?
    Pablo Escobar : "The only man I was ever afraid of was a woman named Griselda Blanco."
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293

    Looking forward, one of the challenges the Conservatives have is coming up with a shared story about the Truss days. At the moment, the gap between those who think the disaster was electing her and those who think the disaster was dumping her is just too big.

    Going back to Thatcher, hardly anyone holds a candle for the Community Charge now.

    The Community Charge would be fine, were it a very low amount.

    The TV licence is effectively a poll tax, as are many bills and basic subscriptions, but it doesn't wash when it gets substantial.
    One of the poignant "what if?"s is what would have happened had there not been the inflation spurt around the time of introduction. Because the tax was the gap between spending and government grant, the bills spiralled massively out of control.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861

    biggles said:

    Wait. Liz Truss had a plan to cure cancer? Truly the Messiah.

    Once the medics had all their funding cut for cancer treatment, they'd soon have come up with a simple cure.

    It's a bit like cutting taxes for bankers to make them work harder.
    Let's for a moment consider it as a real proposal: stop all cancer treatment.

    To see how deluded and frankly stark raving bonkers Truss had to be to propose this thinking she and her government could make it happen. How? Which lever in Downing Street is she going to pull to stop treatment in hundreds of hospitals across the country?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Sort of on topic, the real savings are probably in the types of treatment and care than extend, say, the life of a 85 year old in poor health by 18-24 months in slightly less poor health but with chronic conditions and in some pain, before they diminish again and die. And that won't be just cancer treatment, and nor will it be cheap.

    I'm not sure how you'd quantity that, though, or deprioritise over a childhood or mainstream working adult cancer because you then start to go against the hypocratic oath.

    The entire discipline of health economics is predicated on that dilemma.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    edited August 28

    biggles said:

    Wait. Liz Truss had a plan to cure cancer? Truly the Messiah.

    Once the medics had all their funding cut for cancer treatment, they'd soon have come up with a simple cure.

    It's a bit like cutting taxes for bankers to make them work harder.
    Let's for a moment consider it as a real proposal: stop all cancer treatment.

    To see how deluded and frankly stark raving bonkers Truss had to be to propose this thinking she and her government could make it happen. How? Which lever in Downing Street is she going to pull to stop treatment in hundreds of hospitals across the country?
    Sounds almost as ludicrous as paying a billion pounds to send 4 volunteer asylum seekers to Rwanda. Impossible.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    You don't sound it. I Wish you were.

    (An Alan Partridge quote for the morning, no less)

    I did Twelfth Night at School. It was pretty good.

    I also did 12N at school. Never liked his romcoms though - always preferred the grittier plays like Macbeth and Henry V.

    For the record I also preferred Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad to Friends and Sex and the City.
    Breaking Bad is the greatest TV show ever after Chernobyl.
    BB isn't all brilliant.

    Some of the plot twists were pretty unbelievable.

    There was the notorious episode with the fly.

    The female characters, as usual in these shows, are basically just a kind of nagging chorus at the back while the men get on with the serious business of drug dealing and murder.

    But overall yes it was amazing.
    The fly episode was great.

    And I think you're wrong about the female characters, Skyler in particular, in the later series.
    Granted they tend to be backgrounded, but that's after all fairly close to the reality of the criminal world.

    In any event, they made up for it with Kim Wexler, in Better Call Saul.
  • Foxy said:

    The other thing from the Seldon book that many PBers said at the time, Truss and her supporters were cosplaying Thatcher, it really was a case of Thatcher cut taxes therefore we shall do it.

    Anyone who pointed out that Thatcher first stabilised the public finances by putting up taxes such as VAT was shouted down.

    Indeed the first years of Thatcherism included tax rises, tight spending, and pay rises for the public sector. Tax cuts, deregulation of the City and the Single Market were late features. Of course history doesn't repeat, but she did the hard stuff first.

    We are suffering now from the mendacious campaign run by both major parties, both the Tories unfunded NI cuts, and the pledges on Triple Lock, income tax etc. Neither party was being realistic and stupid to tie the hands of the next CoE. It means that they are left fiddling with added complexity rather than the straightforward.
    The Tories NI cut was part of a fully funded tax rise overall.

    If Labour wants to raise taxes further they should do the same, freeze the thresholds money in part to cut NI rates to reduce the disincentive on working while keeping the rest of the money as a tax rise.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,234
    Cookie said:
    Just astonishing really.
This discussion has been closed.