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Oh, the humanities – politicalbetting.com

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  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    Ted bundy for example studied a humanities degree, psychology....not sure it did much to stop him killing women
    Ted Bundy was also a Republican Party activist in WA State. Knew couple of folks who actually worked with him, including one guy for whom Bundy was his campaign manager. In that case, the candidate was a well-know advocate for Asian communities in Seattle's Internation District/Chinatown.

    Who was pissed off with the Democratic establishment, and decided to run for the legislature as a GOPer; when he requested assistance, the state Republican Party sent Ted Bundy to help out. The candidate lost, but then he never expected to win, just to send a message to the Dems.

    Both of my sources - extremely prominent in WA State politics then & for decades afterwards, told me that Ted Bundy was very competent AND (came across as) a nice guy.

    In interests of balance, will also point out that notorious serial killer John Wayne Gacey was a Democratic activist in Chicago, indeed a precinct captain for the Cook Co. Democratic organization.
    I don't think either your political proclivities or what you study makes a difference personally and wasn't the one arguing it. An arsehole is an arsehole who ever they vote for or what they study
    Wasn't arguing against you. That is, was NOT playing intellectual ping-pong with you, just making a totally tangential comment from the peanut gallery!

    Just noting these particular circumstances re: Ted Bundy who(m) you brought up in passing. Which blew my cotton-picking mind, when I heard about it and to this day.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    Ted bundy for example studied a humanities degree, psychology....not sure it did much to stop him killing women
    Ted Bundy was also a Republican Party activist in WA State. Knew couple of folks who actually worked with him, including one guy for whom Bundy was his campaign manager. In that case, the candidate was a well-know advocate for Asian communities in Seattle's Internation District/Chinatown.

    Who was pissed off with the Democratic establishment, and decided to run for the legislature as a GOPer; when he requested assistance, the state Republican Party sent Ted Bundy to help out. The candidate lost, but then he never expected to win, just to send a message to the Dems.

    Both of my sources - extremely prominent in WA State politics then & for decades afterwards, told me that Ted Bundy was very competent AND (came across as) a nice guy.

    In interests of balance, will also point out that notorious serial killer John Wayne Gacey was a Democratic activist in Chicago, indeed a precinct captain for the Cook Co. Democratic organization.
    Says all you need to know about political activists of any stripe, really.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    I did Highers and A-levels, including maths, further maths, physics and chemistry.

    None were easy. Chemistry was the hardest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    And General Studies. The pub quiz of A-levels.

    Lol.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    Musk's purchase of Twitter is about making the best of a bad job after he was held to a bid he made at two or three times a reasonable price while pissed and/or stoned one night. There is no deviously clever rationale behind it.
    My head canon insists it's because his then wife Grimes had an affair with Chelsea Manning, the latter of which then went on Twitter to mock him. If memory serves somebody in that Twitter thread pointed out how stupid that was as Musk could just buy Twitter. Everybody laughed. Some time later...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250
    edited August 20
    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    What Elon Musk has been successful at is not so much solving engineering problems - but running organisations that can move things up this chart



    For example -



    A Full Flow Staged Combustion engine (FFSC) was long talked off as the holy grail of liquid rocket engines. Not invented by SpaceX - but they bolted them to a rocket and flew. Also mass produced, like airliner jet engines. TRL1-3 moved to TRL-9

    The version above, looks weirdly incomplete, to someone who knows rocket engines. To the point where a respected expert thought the engine was incomplete when the first pictures were shown.

    It doesn’t have a tangle of small tube and accessories around the power head (the top bit). They aren’t gone. Instead, using 3D printing, they are buried in the metal of the engine itself.

    This was long speculated as an advantage of using 3D printing in metal - easier to cool, protect from vibration damage, protected from the environment around engine. More efficient in many ways, including weight.

    Again, SpaceX didn’t invent 3D printing in metal. They didn’t invent 3D printing rocket engine parts. They didn’t invent accessory piping within engine parts - see the Fairy Monarch double engine of 1940.

    What they did was to put these ideas together and productionise them. TRL1-3 has become TRL-9
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    edited August 20

    I did Highers and A-levels, including maths, further maths, physics and chemistry.

    None were easy. Chemistry was the hardest.

    I was the same. I'm very poor at retaining information but very good at retaining knowledge.

    So I was/am poor at languages, history, geography, chemistry but excellent at maths and physics.

    Information is one-off facts. For example I had to learn by heart από ξηρά και από θάλασσα for my Greek -O Level (though I still remember it because I made such an effort and scrambled a pass). History facts, Geography facts. Chemistry facts. Really difficult to remember. I'm hopeless at remembering faces and names.

    Knowledge is re-usable abstractions - principles, models, heuristics, rules, equations. I can remember them and delight in exploiting them.

    I think of my neural network as a Xmas tree with information as baubles (not securely attached) and knowledge as strings (much more securely attached and accessible)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Hitler was a soldier and artist, Mao was a librarian iirc, Stalin was a priest, Putin has law and economics degrees.

    Harold Wilson was a statistician. Thatcher was a chemist.

    STEM grads rock. 😎
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    The summary of the A-levels story seems to be that kids are taking fewer A-levels, and it's harder to have a mix within 3 than a mix within 4. That makes sense because there's not much evidence of plummeting uni admissions. However, it's the kind of thing one would expect a high-powered data team to pick up on. Maybe if they'd studied humanities rather than letters! (To use my 1 pedantry per day.)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    AP (via Seattle Times) - RFK Jr. shows up too late to testify in court against Democrats’ ballot challenge in Pennsylvania

    HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — Robert F. Kennedy Jr. showed up too late to testify Tuesday in a court case in Pennsylvania where Democratic activists are trying to bar him from the ballot for president in the premier battleground state, prompting testy exchanges between the judge and Kennedy’s lawyer.

    Lawyers for the two Democratic activists who filed the challenge say Kennedy’s candidacy paperwork states a fake home address — an allegation being aired in other state courts — and falls short of the signature-gathering requirement applied by state law to third-party candidates.

    Kennedy showed up an hour and 40 minutes late, blaming a canceled flight from Massachusetts to Harrisburg, and never testified after Commonwealth Court Judge Lori Dumas chose to proceed without him as a witness. . . .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited August 20

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive DNC bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    Barnesian said:

    I did Highers and A-levels, including maths, further maths, physics and chemistry.

    None were easy. Chemistry was the hardest.

    I was the same. I'm very poor at retaining information but very good at retaining knowledge.

    So I was/am poor at languages, history, geography, chemistry but excellent at maths and physics.

    Information is one-off facts. For example I had to learn by heart από ξηρά και από θάλασσα for my Greek -O Level (though I still remember it because I made such an effort and scrambled a pass). History facts, Geography facts. Chemistry facts. Really difficult to remember. I'm hopeless at remembering faces and names.

    Knowledge is re-usable abstractions - principles, models, heuristics, rules, equations. I can remember them and delight in exploiting them.
    These days I just Google like a bastich. My entire professional life is built on stealing stuff from smarter people and summarizing it. CoPilot is a godsend, although you do have to check it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited August 20
    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    Ted bundy for example studied a humanities degree, psychology....not sure it did much to stop him killing women
    Ted Bundy was also a Republican Party activist in WA State. Knew couple of folks who actually worked with him, including one guy for whom Bundy was his campaign manager. In that case, the candidate was a well-know advocate for Asian communities in Seattle's Internation District/Chinatown.

    Who was pissed off with the Democratic establishment, and decided to run for the legislature as a GOPer; when he requested assistance, the state Republican Party sent Ted Bundy to help out. The candidate lost, but then he never expected to win, just to send a message to the Dems.

    Both of my sources - extremely prominent in WA State politics then & for decades afterwards, told me that Ted Bundy was very competent AND (came across as) a nice guy.

    In interests of balance, will also point out that notorious serial killer John Wayne Gacey was a Democratic activist in Chicago, indeed a precinct captain for the Cook Co. Democratic organization.
    Says all you need to know about political activists of any stripe, really.
    You REALLY believe that most political activists are active (or retired or eventual) serial killers?

    It'a a view - a stupid view IMHO.

    ADDENDUM - OR perhaps you neglected to sound the PB irony klaxon?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Every aspiring politician should watch these interviews. Every one a masterclass.

    Fox News just re-learned why you can’t come for Pete Buttigieg with a gotcha question.

    This is incredible to watch.

    https://x.com/buttigiegwins/status/1825949321981997297
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 435
    edited August 20
    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    So if ANYONE can cite just ONE of "the worst people in living memory" who was NOT a "humanities student" then your argument is ipso facto WRONG?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    What do Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have in common?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    See, you have a distinct advantage as a Historian, but yes, when someone points out the right answer, it's obvious.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    So if ANYONE can cite just ONE of "the worst people in living memory" who was NOT a "humanities student" then your argument is ipso facto WRONG?
    Adam Britton read zoology if that helps.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    What do Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have in common?
    Neither understood the concept of Ahimsa?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    What do Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have in common?
    Where does one begin?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Nigelb said:

    Every aspiring politician should watch these interviews. Every one a masterclass.

    Fox News just re-learned why you can’t come for Pete Buttigieg with a gotcha question.

    This is incredible to watch.

    https://x.com/buttigiegwins/status/1825949321981997297

    The sheer hypocrisy of that interviewer, demanding Buttigieg 'let me finish' and then constantly interrupting his answers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Hitler was a soldier and artist, Mao was a librarian iirc, Stalin was a priest, Putin has law and economics degrees.

    Harold Wilson was a statistician. Thatcher was a chemist.

    STEM grads rock. 😎
    It's probably true that you're less likely to be a demagogue if you're good at maths. That feels right to me as a statement.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Er no. My argument is based on experience and recognising nuance.

    You can't argue that everyone is like Hitler, or that your sample of about 6 of "the worst people in history" are a statistically significant representation of humanity.

    Anyhoo - I'm not doing logic chopping, so have a good evening :smile: .
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    What do Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have in common?
    AI says:

    ...both Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have been part of discussions related to law enforcement and policing, albeit in very different ways.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Hitler was a soldier and artist, Mao was a librarian iirc, Stalin was a priest, Putin has law and economics degrees.

    Harold Wilson was a statistician. Thatcher was a chemist.

    STEM grads rock. 😎
    Mao was a teacher, not a librarian.

    Stalin was never a priest although he was educated (as a boy) at a seminary.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    What do Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have in common?
    AI says:

    ...both Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have been part of discussions related to law enforcement and policing, albeit in very different ways.
    One was brought to justice and one continues to evade it?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited August 20

    AP (via Seattle Times) - RFK Jr. shows up too late to testify in court against Democrats’ ballot challenge in Pennsylvania

    HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — Robert F. Kennedy Jr. showed up too late to testify Tuesday in a court case in Pennsylvania where Democratic activists are trying to bar him from the ballot for president in the premier battleground state, prompting testy exchanges between the judge and Kennedy’s lawyer.

    Lawyers for the two Democratic activists who filed the challenge say Kennedy’s candidacy paperwork states a fake home address — an allegation being aired in other state courts — and falls short of the signature-gathering requirement applied by state law to third-party candidates.

    Kennedy showed up an hour and 40 minutes late, blaming a canceled flight from Massachusetts to Harrisburg, and never testified after Commonwealth Court Judge Lori Dumas chose to proceed without him as a witness. . . .

    This requires the standard answer for Must Get In Front - "But I need to overtake" hooligans.

    So start out a bit earlier, darling.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695
    DavidL said:

    When I was in 5th year at school (16) I did 6 highers. Most people in my school did 5. I did physics, chemistry and maths, English, Latin and history.

    The only reason I could do 6 was because the classics department were willing to fit me in whenever I had a spare period, they were great and Latin was probably my favourite, closely followed by chemistry. It was, I thought at the time and since, a proper rounded education.

    Move forward 40 odd years and Advanced highers were the thing. My son did 4, also an unusual thing. They were Maths, statistics, modern studies and economics. He did modern studies from scratch, not having done it at either Nat 5s or Higher but he wanted to show he could do an essay based subject for PPE.

    Both of these seem to me to offer a proper mix of both maths and the arts, mine perhaps more than my son's. I completely agree with the thread header that is a good thing.

    Modern Studies is a fantastic subject and it's always boggled my mind that there seems to be no equivalent in English schools.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Hitler was a soldier and artist, Mao was a librarian iirc, Stalin was a priest, Putin has law and economics degrees.

    Harold Wilson was a statistician. Thatcher was a chemist.

    STEM grads rock. 😎
    Mao was a teacher, not a librarian.

    Stalin was never a priest although he was educated (as a boy) at a seminary.
    Although briefly, and not at the highest level, Mao was indeed a librarian. Not your full ook, more somebody who collected the newspapers, but yes he was.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Hitler was a soldier and artist, Mao was a librarian iirc, Stalin was a priest, Putin has law and economics degrees.

    Harold Wilson was a statistician. Thatcher was a chemist.

    STEM grads rock. 😎
    Mao was a teacher, not a librarian.

    Stalin was never a priest although he was educated (as a boy) at a seminary.
    Although briefly, and not at the highest level, Mao was indeed a librarian. Not your full ook, more somebody who collected the newspapers, but yes he was.
    By that logic, so am I. But I would definitely call myself a teacher, not a librarian.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    I note that a number of solar panels were destroyed by a SC 500 Luftwaffe bomb today in Belfast. Bet you won't find that risk in the cost-benefit analysis for net zero.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,578
    Usual disclaimers apply:

    "Some Russian channels are warning about Ukrainian forces becoming active in Zaporizhzhia oblast."

    https://x.com/RALee85/status/1825980178796826945
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Eabhal said:

    I note that a number of solar panels were destroyed by a SC 500 Luftwaffe bomb today in Belfast. Bet you won't find that risk in the cost-benefit analysis for net zero.

    Er...were they?

    Do you have a link?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,421
    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,075

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Dems are drifting - out to 2.08 (bf). Any ideas what's driving this? Reps 1.92.

    End of the honeymoon period for Harris and Walz.
    I suspect and hope you are wrong, particularly as we are in the midst of a very positive Dem bunfight. However, perhaps you are right.

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Hitler, Johnson, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Napoleon. Spot the odd one out.
    I hate difficult multiple choice exam questions when all the answers seem plausible. No, just can't spot the odd one out.
    Oh comes on, that's easy.

    Pol Pot was the only one who wasn't a creepy sex pest.
    What do Pol Pot and Suella Braverman have in common?
    Both have names that are longer/shorter than the originals: "SueEllen" for Suella, "Pol" for Pol Pot?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    Apart from the huge numbers of them killed that is.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    A greater percentage of the population of the British Isles died in the Civil War than died in the First World War - 5% in Great Britain, maybe as much as 20% of the population of Ireland. The First World War was 2.6%.

    https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-civil-wars

    You might be thinking of the Wars of the Roses, which with the rather dramatic exceptions of Towton, Barnet and Tewkesbury were much less impactful on the lives of ordinary people.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    So if ANYONE can cite just ONE of "the worst people in living memory" who was NOT a "humanities student" then your argument is ipso facto WRONG?
    I pointed out all the worst people in living memory have been humanites students, mao, hitler,pol pot, stalin....who did I miss out...also pointed out napolean, johnson and bundy....between them all they have been responsible for probably 100 million dead, seems a fairly comprehensive list to me
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    So if ANYONE can cite just ONE of "the worst people in living memory" who was NOT a "humanities student" then your argument is ipso facto WRONG?
    I pointed out all the worst people in living memory have been humanites students, mao, hitler,pol pot, stalin....who did I miss out...also pointed out napolean, johnson and bundy....between them all they have been responsible for probably 100 million dead, seems a fairly comprehensive list to me
    Napoleon was an artillery man. Definitely a scientist.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250

    Usual disclaimers apply:

    "Some Russian channels are warning about Ukrainian forces becoming active in Zaporizhzhia oblast."

    https://x.com/RALee85/status/1825980178796826945

    I’ve heard that the Ukrainian forces in Russia are looking for the famous Red Lines. But haven’t found any yet…
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited August 20
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    So if ANYONE can cite just ONE of "the worst people in living memory" who was NOT a "humanities student" then your argument is ipso facto WRONG?
    I pointed out all the worst people in living memory have been humanites students, mao, hitler,pol pot, stalin....who did I miss out...also pointed out napolean, johnson and bundy....between them all they have been responsible for probably 100 million dead, seems a fairly comprehensive list to me
    Napoleon was an artillery man. Definitely a scientist.
    At the time of his education? No such thing as a 'scientist', I think? A mathematician or a natural philosopher, perhaps.

    Edit: Military academy, tops in maths and good at history (!) and geography.

    Not surprising for an artilleryman.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Follow-up: I walked by the MAGA House -- on my way to pick up my weekly NYT -- and saw a blue Tesla parked on the property.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    ydoethur said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    So if ANYONE can cite just ONE of "the worst people in living memory" who was NOT a "humanities student" then your argument is ipso facto WRONG?
    I pointed out all the worst people in living memory have been humanites students, mao, hitler,pol pot, stalin....who did I miss out...also pointed out napolean, johnson and bundy....between them all they have been responsible for probably 100 million dead, seems a fairly comprehensive list to me
    Napoleon was an artillery man. Definitely a scientist.
    He read geography, history and lit at l'ecole francais...the fact he could do fairly basic maths and artillery is fairly basic maths is beside the point
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,421
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    A greater percentage of the population of the British Isles died in the Civil War than died in the First World War - 5% in Great Britain, maybe as much as 20% of the population of Ireland. The First World War was 2.6%.

    https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-civil-wars

    You might be thinking of the Wars of the Roses, which with the rather dramatic exceptions of Towton, Barnet and Tewkesbury were much less impactful on the lives of ordinary people.
    Well, I wasn't actually including events in Scotland or Wales, just the bit between Charles trying to arrest people and losing. But I take your point.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited August 20
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    A greater percentage of the population of the British Isles died in the Civil War than died in the First World War - 5% in Great Britain, maybe as much as 20% of the population of Ireland. The First World War was 2.6%.

    https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-civil-wars

    You might be thinking of the Wars of the Roses, which with the rather dramatic exceptions of Towton, Barnet and Tewkesbury were much less impactful on the lives of ordinary people.
    Worryingly parochial that source - "British", and "Civil Wars" both highly narrow. The civil wars of Britain and Ireland lasted from 1639 [edit!] to 1746, not 1642 to 1651.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    If anyone wants a crazy statistic on Civil Wars v World Wars, how's this for one:

    US casualties (dead) WW2: 407,316
    Us Casualties (dead) WW1: 116,708
    US Casualties (dead) Civil War: 620,000

    Even on the most conservative estimate, over 50% of all US military fatalities occurred in the Civil War until the time of Vietnam.

    Which is quite a thought.

    And that doesn't include civilian casualties in the south especially during Sherman's rampage.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019
    dixiedean said:
    I liked two and four. Since then they've been pulling away from what I want and seven doesn't look to be reverting.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    1h

    Trump currently live from Howell, Michigan. Rambling, tired, dispirited, low energy drivel, no theme, no purpose, no point, no sign he has a clue how to reboot his campaign.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited August 20
    Eabhal said:

    I note that a number of solar panels were destroyed by a SC 500 Luftwaffe bomb today in Belfast. Bet you won't find that risk in the cost-benefit analysis for net zero.

    Bloody hell - didn't anyone tell that Junkers Ju 88 crew the war is over?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited August 20
    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Trump media stock tanking.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar

    Trump claims you can't walk across the street to get a loaf of bread without getting raped and shot
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Trump media stock tanking.

    I am not sure I can take any more good news.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Trump is now fav (just) on BF.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    The last point has been debated endlessly for weeks now by various analysts and economists and pol types. It's a pretty dry area of policy and all about technicalities.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    edited August 20


    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar

    Trump claims you can't walk across the street to get a loaf of bread without getting raped and shot

    Is he getting kneady?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Foss said:

    dixiedean said:
    I liked two and four. Since then they've been pulling away from what I want and seven doesn't look to be reverting.
    Three was my favourite.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    "Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

    The Guardian is saying this is news?? Jeez...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    "Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

    The Guardian is saying this is news?? Jeez...
    What about a 230,000,000% tax on second homes in Tuscany owned by Guardian columnists?

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    WTF. 4% of the population were casualties.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    "Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

    The Guardian is saying this is news?? Jeez...
    CGT rates to be same as IT nailed on

    Rachel possibly won't increase the ISA limit either!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    WTF. 4% of the population were casualties.
    It also rather ignores the general dislocation of war. The looting of food, destruction of property and so on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Yes arts subjects give you good language and communication skills and STEM subjects good logic and reasoning skills. The EBacc the last government introduced also ensures schools which see students get good GCSEs in humanities as well as Maths and the sciences are rewarded
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    1h

    Trump currently live from Howell, Michigan. Rambling, tired, dispirited, low energy drivel, no theme, no purpose, no point, no sign he has a clue how to reboot his campaign.

    Sometimes I love Twitter.

    Someone has posted that it is all going to be all right because Farage is flying out there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Er no. My argument is based on experience and recognising nuance.

    You can't argue that everyone is like Hitler, or that your sample of about 6 of "the worst people in history" are a statistically significant representation of humanity.

    Anyhoo - I'm not doing logic chopping, so have a good evening :smile: .
    There’s Mengele, of course.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    ydoethur said:

    If anyone wants a crazy statistic on Civil Wars v World Wars, how's this for one:

    US casualties (dead) WW2: 407,316
    Us Casualties (dead) WW1: 116,708
    US Casualties (dead) Civil War: 620,000

    Even on the most conservative estimate, over 50% of all US military fatalities occurred in the Civil War until the time of Vietnam.

    Which is quite a thought.

    And that doesn't include civilian casualties in the south especially during Sherman's rampage.

    US had a very cheap ww1 vs UK nearly 900,000 and a pretty cheap ww2, about the same as UK but proportionally less. Soviet losses were just awesome. 27 million of which about 10 million military. Stalin was bang on the money about time money and blood.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Trump is now fav (just) on BF.

    I think that happened as Hillary Clinton was speaking at the DNC. Punters got confused for a second.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    Yet more Labour tax rises on the way then, especially hitting home owners and their children and entrepreneurs
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Hitler was a soldier and artist, Mao was a librarian iirc, Stalin was a priest, Putin has law and economics degrees.

    Harold Wilson was a statistician. Thatcher was a chemist.

    STEM grads rock. 😎
    Osama Bin Laden studied civil engineering and computing
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821


    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar

    Trump claims you can't walk across the street to get a loaf of bread without getting raped and shot

    Dough!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    HYUFD said:

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    Yet more Labour tax rises on the way then, especially hitting home owners and their children and entrepreneurs
    'Yet more'? Which ones have they introduced so far?
  • HYUFD said:

    Yes arts subjects give you good language and communication skills and STEM subjects good logic and reasoning skills. The EBacc the last government introduced also ensures schools which see students get good GCSEs in humanities as well as Maths and the sciences are rewarded

    The Ebacc just highlights how broken the system is.

    To get a proper baccalaureate you take the full variety of subjects until 18.

    Pupils not getting an Ebacc are dropping those elements at 14.

    14 is far too early to be saying "I won't do that".
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    HYUFD said:

    Yes arts subjects give you good language and communication skills and STEM subjects good logic and reasoning skills. The EBacc the last government introduced also ensures schools which see students get good GCSEs in humanities as well as Maths and the sciences are rewarded

    Not really true. Maths is maths not logic (you can reduce it to logic but it's bloody hard work, see under Peano), physics is about as illogical as it gets, etc. History and languages require at least as much routine logic. Philosophy itself including philosophical logic is regarded as an arts subject.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    HYUFD said:

    Yes arts subjects give you good language and communication skills and STEM subjects good logic and reasoning skills. The EBacc the last government introduced also ensures schools which see students get good GCSEs in humanities as well as Maths and the sciences are rewarded

    Do arts subjects 'give' you good language and communication skills? I would argue here that correlation does not necessarily equal causation.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited August 20
    HYUFD said:

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    Yet more Labour tax rises on the way then, especially hitting home owners and their children and entrepreneurs
    It has been obvious both before the election and after Reeves was going to increase taxes, no doubt causing upset in those who are affected

    On another subject 70% in Wales oppose 20mph policy according to YouGov

    https://news.sky.com/story/seven-in-10-oppose-default-20mph-speed-limit-in-wales-new-poll-finds-as-welsh-government-vows-to-listen-to-concerns-13200258
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes arts subjects give you good language and communication skills and STEM subjects good logic and reasoning skills. The EBacc the last government introduced also ensures schools which see students get good GCSEs in humanities as well as Maths and the sciences are rewarded

    Do arts subjects 'give' you good language and communication skills? I would argue here that correlation does not necessarily equal causation.
    In terms of being able to write fluently and in an engaging manner yes
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    I did Highers and A-levels, including maths, further maths, physics and chemistry.

    None were easy. Chemistry was the hardest.

    I did maths and the three sciences with a view to studying medicine, after I bombed out in AS year that dream ended (after 5 years of being in an all boys school sixth form was joint with the girls school, unsurprisingly lots of us did quite badly at exams in our first year of A-Levels). I'm quite glad it died though, I can't imagine being a doctor today, I think I'd hate it. Though I am a good analyst so I'd probably do pretty well at diagnosing patients.

    I found biology the worst of the four but held onto it because of the 3 day field trip to Swanage joint with girls school. I managed to scrape through with good grades but because I had loads of January resits I didn't get into any medicine courses and had to go for my backup choice of Chemistry.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    HYUFD said:

    Yes arts subjects give you good language and communication skills and STEM subjects good logic and reasoning skills. The EBacc the last government introduced also ensures schools which see students get good GCSEs in humanities as well as Maths and the sciences are rewarded

    The Ebacc just highlights how broken the system is.

    To get a proper baccalaureate you take the full variety of subjects until 18.

    Pupils not getting an Ebacc are dropping those elements at 14.

    14 is far too early to be saying "I won't do that".
    And it was even worse before the EBacc, at least the EBacc means league tables reward those taking History and Geography, Science and languages to GCSE not just those doing English and Maths
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    mercator said:

    ydoethur said:

    If anyone wants a crazy statistic on Civil Wars v World Wars, how's this for one:

    US casualties (dead) WW2: 407,316
    Us Casualties (dead) WW1: 116,708
    US Casualties (dead) Civil War: 620,000

    Even on the most conservative estimate, over 50% of all US military fatalities occurred in the Civil War until the time of Vietnam.

    Which is quite a thought.

    And that doesn't include civilian casualties in the south especially during Sherman's rampage.

    US had a very cheap ww1 vs UK nearly 900,000 and a pretty cheap ww2, about the same as UK but proportionally less. Soviet losses were just awesome. 27 million of which about 10 million military. Stalin was bang on the money about time money and blood.
    Stalin also conveniently forgot how much lendlease had gone to the USSR. There were US jeeps at Stalingrad, for instance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited August 20

    HYUFD said:

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    Yet more Labour tax rises on the way then, especially hitting home owners and their children and entrepreneurs
    'Yet more'? Which ones have they introduced so far?
    They have scrapped the planned social care cap and indirectly introduced effectively a winter fuel tax for most pensioners by ending the allowance
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    MattW said:

    Pagan2 said:

    EPG said:

    MJW said:

    If you want an example of how and why the humanities - when taught well - are important and have their place there's a great one in Elon Musk's (Physics and Economics) disastrous running of Twitter.

    He's had tremendous success in fields that were essentially about cracking an engineering problem and marketing it. It's undoubtedly true that it takes a degree of genius to spot that if you can solve an engineering problem like getting the performance electric cars in line with ICE ones, or cheaper space travel, then doing it, there'll be huge demand.

    But social media is a different problem, in that once you've built the underlying tech - not all that difficult these days, as we've seen with recent Twitter clones - it's more like managing a delicate ecosystem and understanding how to manage communities in a way that makes them first desirable to users and then advertisers/sellers.

    Which is where the humanities comes in. History, philosophy, literature, and the more thorough branches of cultural and social studies (admittedly there's been some dreck) can give you a far better idea of the human consequences of doing certain things to your online ecosystem than treating everything as a problem that can be 'hardcored' by adding features you can charge for.

    Musk's purchase of Twitter is likely about buying political influence rather than making money from ads or building a pristine managed community for bored journalists.
    True, but Twitter only provides political influence if it keeps its users and keeps its advertisers. Musk's cack handed stewardship of the platform is a threat to this, and I agree with the poster quoted that Musk is by nature a sociopath who thinks people make decisions by logic flow
    Do you believe having a humanities degree would have made him less of a sociopath?
    It's possible that he could have been redirected from being some version of an incel if he had had chance to deal with people, rather than computers ... if that's what happened to him.

    Art and similar is known to be effective in some cases for rehabilitation, or education to help in some conditions. I have a young relative who's parents helped considerably by sending him to Stagecoach for a number of years.
    Well plenty of humanities style people it hasn't helped, for example hitler dabbled as a painter, johnson was an humanities student, Stalin was training as a priest, mao studies both law and economics, pol pot was in a buddhist monastery studying for a year, napolean read widely in geography , history and literature at the ecole francaise......humanities works out so well
    Indeed. That's why we talk about "some" and "possible".
    Positing humanities would have helped musk when most of the most vicious dictators in living memory have been humanites type people is a reach
    I don't think so.

    You seem to be arguing that environment has no effect. I disagree.
    Disagree all you like but 100% of the worst people in living memory have been humanities students....sorry doesn't give your argument credence....your argument is based on hopium
    Er no. My argument is based on experience and recognising nuance.

    You can't argue that everyone is like Hitler, or that your sample of about 6 of "the worst people in history" are a statistically significant representation of humanity.

    Anyhoo - I'm not doing logic chopping, so have a good evening :smile: .
    There’s Mengele, of course.
    Shipman another Bad Doctor.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    mercator said:

    ydoethur said:

    If anyone wants a crazy statistic on Civil Wars v World Wars, how's this for one:

    US casualties (dead) WW2: 407,316
    Us Casualties (dead) WW1: 116,708
    US Casualties (dead) Civil War: 620,000

    Even on the most conservative estimate, over 50% of all US military fatalities occurred in the Civil War until the time of Vietnam.

    Which is quite a thought.

    And that doesn't include civilian casualties in the south especially during Sherman's rampage.

    US had a very cheap ww1 vs UK nearly 900,000 and a pretty cheap ww2, about the same as UK but proportionally less. Soviet losses were just awesome. 27 million of which about 10 million military. Stalin was bang on the money about time money and blood.
    Apart from helping Hitler start the slaughter in the first place.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Is the "reclassification of BoE debt" in this article the one pushed by John Redwood et al? I had assumed it was nutjob stuff...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Four hours ago people were talking about what A-levels they did at school.

    Pop back in. They still are.

    Bring back Catman Leon. All is forgiven.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    HYUFD said:

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    Yet more Labour tax rises on the way then, especially hitting home owners and their children and entrepreneurs
    It has been obvious both before the election and after Reeves was going to increase taxes, no doubt causing upset in those who are affected

    On another subject 70% in Wales oppose 20mph policy according to YouGov

    https://news.sky.com/story/seven-in-10-oppose-default-20mph-speed-limit-in-wales-new-poll-finds-as-welsh-government-vows-to-listen-to-concerns-13200258
    20MPH
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    "Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

    The Guardian is saying this is news?? Jeez...
    CGT rates to be same as IT nailed on

    Rachel possibly won't increase the ISA limit either!
    ISA is bloody ridiculous. Far too high an amount per year.

    Encourage small amounts of saving by ordinary folks not a vehicle for the rich to escape tax.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited August 20
    kinabalu said:

    Trump is now fav (just) on BF.

    I think that happened as Hillary Clinton was speaking at the DNC. Punters got confused for a second.
    I thought Hillary spoke very well last night, it is a pity she is such a poor campaigner (even though she did win the popular vote) as she would have been a very tough and competent President. Foreign leaders would have respected her even if not always liked her in a way they don't really with Biden and likely won't with Harris and didn't even with Obama by the end of his term despite their mostly warm initial welcome for him and they just mostly see Trump as mad
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250

    viewcode said:

    On the talk of civil war: I just don't think it's particularly credible.

    Our political system and institutions have been through a period of immense stress over the last decade, at least, and, while painful for everyone, remain intact and are in some ways stronger as a result.

    People are critical, and want them improved. They don't want them torn down.

    And British people really hate political violence, mobs and vigilantism.

    I think Tim Shipman's *out* series of books is likely to pretty much bookend the crisis period.

    There are 15million pensioners in the UK. Pensioners aren't revolutionaries. We are not going to have a civil war.
    The last English civil war didn't really involve the people that much.
    WTF. 4% of the population were casualties.
    It also rather ignores the general dislocation of war. The looting of food, destruction of property and so on.
    In the Goode Olde Days, a war would often kill several times more civilians from disturbing agriculture than the simple military deaths.

    There has been some scholarship to suggest that deaths in the South during the American Civil War spiked massively. Due to economic collapse, large numbers of able bodied men in the military… in some areas people were literally starving.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Four hours ago people were talking about what A-levels they did at school.

    Pop back in. They still are.

    Bring back Catman Leon. All is forgiven.

    I did Chemistry, Physics and Biology. Predicted ABB, but got AAB instead.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    ydoethur said:

    If anyone wants a crazy statistic on Civil Wars v World Wars, how's this for one:

    US casualties (dead) WW2: 407,316
    Us Casualties (dead) WW1: 116,708
    US Casualties (dead) Civil War: 620,000

    Even on the most conservative estimate, over 50% of all US military fatalities occurred in the Civil War until the time of Vietnam.

    Which is quite a thought.

    And that doesn't include civilian casualties in the south especially during Sherman's rampage.

    US had a very cheap ww1 vs UK nearly 900,000 and a pretty cheap ww2, about the same as UK but proportionally less. Soviet losses were just awesome. 27 million of which about 10 million military. Stalin was bang on the money about time money and blood.
    Stalin also conveniently forgot how much lendlease had gone to the USSR. There were US jeeps at Stalingrad, for instance.
    He said the US provided the money which I think in the context includes jeeps.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    edited August 20

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    "Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

    The Guardian is saying this is news?? Jeez...
    CGT rates to be same as IT nailed on

    Rachel possibly won't increase the ISA limit either!
    ISA is bloody ridiculous. Far too high an amount per year.

    Encourage small amounts of saving by ordinary folks not a vehicle for the rich to escape tax.
    The rich will find ways of escaping tax anyway and ultimately in this modern world they can live anywhere and take their taxes with them

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Black hole update:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/20/rachel-reeves-planning-to-raise-taxes-and-cut-spending-in-october-budget

    Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax.
    - Sticking to plans for a 1% increase in public spending even though it would involve cuts for some Whitehall departments.
    - Rejecting pressure to scrap the two-child benefit cap.
    - Changing the way debt is measured to exclude the Bank of England.


    Forgive my ignorance, is that last point the same one that Luckyguy and others have been promoting?

    "Among the changes Reeves is believed to be considering are:

    - Raising more money from inheritance tax and capital gains tax."

    The Guardian is saying this is news?? Jeez...
    CGT rates to be same as IT nailed on

    Rachel possibly won't increase the ISA limit either!
    ISA is bloody ridiculous. Far too high an amount per year.

    Encourage small amounts of saving by ordinary folks not a vehicle for the rich to escape tax.
    I think there's a fair chance the limit will be reduced to £10,000pa from 2025.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Nigelb said:

    mercator said:

    ydoethur said:

    If anyone wants a crazy statistic on Civil Wars v World Wars, how's this for one:

    US casualties (dead) WW2: 407,316
    Us Casualties (dead) WW1: 116,708
    US Casualties (dead) Civil War: 620,000

    Even on the most conservative estimate, over 50% of all US military fatalities occurred in the Civil War until the time of Vietnam.

    Which is quite a thought.

    And that doesn't include civilian casualties in the south especially during Sherman's rampage.

    US had a very cheap ww1 vs UK nearly 900,000 and a pretty cheap ww2, about the same as UK but proportionally less. Soviet losses were just awesome. 27 million of which about 10 million military. Stalin was bang on the money about time money and blood.
    Apart from helping Hitler start the slaughter in the first place.
    I don't think that affects his point
This discussion has been closed.