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Oh, the humanities – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited August 26 in General
Oh, the humanities – politicalbetting.com

In today’s @thetimes I’ve written a data-led defence of studying the humanities. Today’s children have a clear line of sight to their future careers, and are shunning humanities subjects as a result. I think that’s a bad idea.https://t.co/mVaplSUl2X pic.twitter.com/EyeSuNpVUq

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Comments

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    first!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Second like Kamala.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Historians should be able to spot my subtle historical reference/pun in the headline.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    edited August 20

    Historians should be able to spot my subtle historical reference/pun in the headline.

    To be honest, it went down about as quick and as much in flames....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    Historians should be able to spot my subtle historical reference/pun in the headline.

    We've long wondered why you are still working.
  • 16 is too young in my humble opinion for pupils to be narrowing down what they want to learn, but that's a flaw with the A-Level system whereby you only take 3-4 subjects.

    When I did my International Baccalaureate you have to take 6 subjects. Main language (English), second language (I took French), Maths, science (Physics), social science/humanities (Economics) and a second science/humanities/social science (Computer Science).

    Continuing a varied education to 18 does make people well rounded I think, but the English setup is rather designed to narrow things down at 16.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    Historians should be able to spot my subtle historical reference/pun in the headline.

    Lindhurst, New Jersey, May 6, 1937 - LZ 129 Hindenburg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7Ly1Oh-xvs
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Most humanities subject people can study as a hobby, you don't need university to teach you about poetry just pick some poetry books up. Art is subjective by its very nature, I feel teaching it in someways funnels people very much into this is how you should interpret it forget how it makes you feel because we are right and if you don't feel that you are wrong.

    Some may read a poem and it makes them happy, others it makes them cry. Thats ok people see different things in the same piece of art whether is happy/sad, hope/pessimism. I hated english lit because it was all this is how you should see this poem not how do you feel about this poem
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    I almost chose History as my fourth A-Level, but went for Chemistry in the end (With Maths, Further Maths and Physics).

    The great advantage of my choice is that it threw me into a readymade friendship group of the few of us who had done the same, and so had identical timetables.

    I'd have been pretty lost if I'd been the lone Maths/Further Maths/Physics student who combined that with History.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    Nigelb said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    Lucy Letby is an interesting phenomenon. Seems she's now being politically weaponized by the British Right as a way to bash the NHS.

    Letby truthers are really very odd but it is not just the British right. Private Eye too has been questioning of it.
    And Owen Jones. About the only tweets he's doing these days about anything other than Gaza are on Letby.
    I do wonder how much support Ms Letby would get were she not - to put it bluntly - an attractive young lady. We're all suckers for beautiful people.
    I wouldn’t classify her as beautiful and I don’t think many would TBH. Personally, I think a key reason she got convicted was her behaviour / demeanour at trial which came across as emotionally detached / weird.

    I haven’t followed things too closely but there certainly seems enough questions to ask given the issues raised, doubts raised by experts about evidence etc.

    Someone on here mentioned that there is an interest on the Right to imply Letby has been framed. That is maybe true but, conversely, there is an incentive on those invested in the NHS to put the blame of so many deaths on a rogue and evil nurse rather than look into more fundamental issues. Both sides have a vested interest in pushing their views on this one.
    If people are asked to assess how honest and trustworthy they are based on a photo, then they will tend to give much higher marks to better looking people. I don't really think that is a contraversial point. Nor do I think it controversial to claim that - if all 70 million people in the UK were ranked in order of attractiveness - she would be comfortably in the top quarter.

    This does not make her innocent or guilty; I am merely pointing out there is cold, hard scientific fact that we (as humans) are suckers for physical appearance. And I find it odd that you doubt this.
    Don’t think I did dispute that physical appearance influences things (it’s certainly not in my post) but more her personality may also have had more of an impact and / or she wasn’t particularly stunning enough to influence the outcome.

    I’m not an expert on the case but there feels enough odd to suggest it should be looked at more.
    I think the fear is that we have had some serious miscarriages of justice before based on mathematical models, the SID cases being the most obvious example.

    Very few lawyers, and even fewer jurors, have any real understanding of mathematics. To give you an idea I am considered unusually numerate amongst my cohort and yet I have lost count (ha) of the number of times I have made basic errors on here.

    I think we are right to look at the modelling critically but we should not ignore the other evidence whilst doing so. My hesitation, at the risk of setting another haggis running, is why I would never support capital punishment. If we had it she would have been a prime candidate.
    The mathematics is bollocks (or, not bollocks, but not relevant). Who cares if it's mathematically unlikely to be someone else than her (under various assumptions that probably don't hold). Even if the maths is correct, unlikely things happen all the time. People win lotteries, get struck by lightning, elect Donald Trump...

    Maybe worth a thread header on the use and misuse of statistics in cases like this?
    I don't know how good DNA sampling is nowadays but it certainly used to be the case that if you trawled the country for someone matching DNA at a crime scene you'd expect to find about 10 people.

    A supposed "5 million to 1 chance" suddenly becomes a "1 in 10 chance" unless you have some additional evidence.

    I never understood the police asked for people to be sampled so as to "eliminate them from enquiries". Or at least, I never understood why anyone would volunteer.
    The standard probability calculated when there is an adequate supply of DNA is described as a likelihood of not less than 1 in a billion. This is calculated by the number of branches on the DNA found that match the accused. It has been explained to me that in most cases the chances of a false match are significantly less than 1 in a billion but that is the highest ratio they use in their reports.

    There are some exceptions to this. If the sample is very small or if the accused comes from an ethnic minority which has comparatively few contributors to the data base measured against then the likelihood of the sample not being from you is much lower but as a generality if you know you didn't do something the risks of giving a DNA sample for elimination purposes is vastly lower than the risks of going to a jury trial.

    And, of course, the police are entitled to take a sample from you anyway if you don't volunteer.
    Thanks - I think my figures are probably going back 20 years at least.

    Would the police really get permission to sample everyone in a town?
    No, but they routinely take a DNA swab from someone who is in custody for any reason.

    I had a particularly smart Jury question recently. They asked, how did they know to check the DNA of the accused?
    The answer, of course, is that the DNA tested had matched an entry in the DNA database because the accused had been previously convicted. Of course the Judge did not tell them that but someone on the jury had worked it out.
    It is worth remembering that whenever you submit DNA for one of those "profiling companies" to see whether you are susceptible to skin cancer or dementia or supporting Reform or whatever, then the default tick box allows the the lab to share the results with law enforcement. (In the US at least.)

    What this means is that when they get DNA at a crime scene, they can usually find a couple of people who are cousins of the accused. This can really help them narrow down where they should be looking.
    Well a) only idiots go with profiling services, b) law enforcement should only be keeping records of those found guilty....I don't want harrassment because some own cousin does something bad
    Are you telling me that noone in your extended family has gotten a DNA test? These days, it's increasingly common. Heck, your Aunt Dorothy might have gotten one as part of her cancer treatment, to see which of the various chemotherapy treatments she is most likely to be able to bear. That now means that if the police find your DNA at a crime scene, they will be able to work out that it's one of Dorothy's cousins.

    "Dorothy," they'll say, "can you think of any of your relations, probably a nephew of yours, who might torch an Apple store?" And at the very least, they'll be able to look at her family tree, and you'll be recieving a call from Plid.

    Every year, there are more DNA samples being collected and stored, and that means your ability to remain below the authorities radar screens is diminishing by the day.
    Well I don't really have an extended family
    I have "double second cousins". My mother had "double cousins".
    A result of a small village post-WWI where 2 brothers from one family married two sisters from another.
    7 Brides for 7 Brothers...
    7 Strides for 7 Badenochs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    16 is too young in my humble opinion for pupils to be narrowing down what they want to learn, but that's a flaw with the A-Level system whereby you only take 3-4 subjects.

    When I did my International Baccalaureate you have to take 6 subjects. Main language (English), second language (I took French), Maths, science (Physics), social science/humanities (Economics) and a second science/humanities/social science (Computer Science).

    Continuing a varied education to 18 does make people well rounded I think, but the English setup is rather designed to narrow things down at 16.

    My half-Thai granddaughters have done/are doing the IB. Very similar but they weren't allowed to do Thai as their foreign language...... the school teaches in English.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,598
    Pagan2 said:

    Most humanities subject people can study as a hobby, you don't need university to teach you about poetry just pick some poetry books up. Art is subjective by its very nature, I feel teaching it in someways funnels people very much into this is how you should interpret it forget how it makes you feel because we are right and if you don't feel that you are wrong.

    Some may read a poem and it makes them happy, others it makes them cry. Thats ok people see different things in the same piece of art whether is happy/sad, hope/pessimism. I hated english lit because it was all this is how you should see this poem not how do you feel about this poem

    I have a U in English Lit, which I'm quite proud of.

    Admittely there was some kind of marking error or lost paper problem in that 30% of the school year also got a U, but I kind of liked it as a sign of what I thought of the subject.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    16 is too young in my humble opinion for pupils to be narrowing down what they want to learn, but that's a flaw with the A-Level system whereby you only take 3-4 subjects.

    When I did my International Baccalaureate you have to take 6 subjects. Main language (English), second language (I took French), Maths, science (Physics), social science/humanities (Economics) and a second science/humanities/social science (Computer Science).

    Continuing a varied education to 18 does make people well rounded I think, but the English setup is rather designed to narrow things down at 16.

    It used to be 4 AS levels narrowed to 3 A2 levels, but Gove thought he knew better.

    That made continuing a mix for longer possible.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Pagan2 said:

    Most humanities subject people can study as a hobby, you don't need university to teach you about poetry just pick some poetry books up. Art is subjective by its very nature, I feel teaching it in someways funnels people very much into this is how you should interpret it forget how it makes you feel because we are right and if you don't feel that you are wrong.

    Some may read a poem and it makes them happy, others it makes them cry. Thats ok people see different things in the same piece of art whether is happy/sad, hope/pessimism. I hated english lit because it was all this is how you should see this poem not how do you feel about this poem

    I have a U in English Lit, which I'm quite proud of.

    Admittely there was some kind of marking error or lost paper problem in that 30% of the school year also got a U, but I kind of liked it as a sign of what I thought of the subject.
    I've got one art O-Level, it did nothing for me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    stodge said:

    Historians should be able to spot my subtle historical reference/pun in the headline.

    To be honest, it went down about as quick and as much in flames....
    True


    I saw a Oh, the Hugh Grantity one of those once, but can't find it.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,787

    stodge said:

    Historians should be able to spot my subtle historical reference/pun in the headline.

    To be honest, it went down about as quick and as much in flames....
    True


    I saw a Oh, the Hugh Grantity one of those once, but can't find it.
    https://coilhouse.net/2008/11/drgblz/

    I'll let someone else post the picture...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    Read the bible....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    I did MPC at A level - STEM city - and probably it would have been better to have mixed in some arts and crafts. But, you know, you can always add further strings to your bow in your own time. Not everything has to happen at school.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    I wasn't trying to insinuate humanities are either worthless or unimportant. I just remain unconvinced that teaching how things should be seen, rather than letting people make up their own minds what they think is a good thing. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.
  • Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
  • Ally_B1Ally_B1 Posts: 49

    I almost chose History as my fourth A-Level, but went for Chemistry in the end (With Maths, Further Maths and Physics).
    The great advantage of my choice is that it threw me into a readymade friendship group of the few of us who had done the same, and so had identical timetables.
    I'd have been pretty lost if I'd been the lone Maths/Further Maths/Physics student who combined that with History.

    The Grammar School I attended 50 years ago didn't allow one to mix A levels in that way because of timetabling. I suspect History was probably taught at the same time as say Chemistry or Physics. If you did Science subjects then you couldn't do History so I did the same as you.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    As a humanities graduate doing a technical job, I agree.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    I wasn't trying to insinuate humanities are either worthless or unimportant. I just remain unconvinced that teaching how things should be seen, rather than letting people make up their own minds what they think is a good thing. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
    It's the way that subjects are taught that's important; in the humanities, AIUI anyway, one is much more likely to have to deal with the how and why rather than simply accept the facts, as in Science.
    Certainly the way I was taught science, anyway, but I did my A levels in 1957. (Botany, Zoology, Chemistry and Physics.)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    I wasn't trying to insinuate humanities are either worthless or unimportant. I just remain unconvinced that teaching how things should be seen, rather than letting people make up their own minds what they think is a good thing. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
    What you’re describing sounds more like the arts than the humanities. Or are we working with different definitions, like with “woke”?

    When someone says humanities I think Geography, History, Economics, Religious studies etc.

    I did geography for my degree. Great subject for all rounders and people who can’t quite decide if they’re scientific or arty or a bit of both.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    Foxy said:

    16 is too young in my humble opinion for pupils to be narrowing down what they want to learn, but that's a flaw with the A-Level system whereby you only take 3-4 subjects.

    When I did my International Baccalaureate you have to take 6 subjects. Main language (English), second language (I took French), Maths, science (Physics), social science/humanities (Economics) and a second science/humanities/social science (Computer Science).

    Continuing a varied education to 18 does make people well rounded I think, but the English setup is rather designed to narrow things down at 16.

    It used to be 4 AS levels narrowed to 3 A2 levels, but Gove thought he knew better.

    That made continuing a mix for longer possible.
    In theory, AS courses and exams still exist. Two other Govoid Ideas killed off the 4-3 model.

    One is that there's a lot of content in the current A Levels; doing three subjects well is towards the limit of what many sixth formers can cope with.

    The other is that schools and colleges adapted to austerity by squeezing the number of teaching hours students get- getting rid of that fourth subject in Year 12 was an important part of that.

    When the original AS courses came in in the 1990s, the hope was that 2 A Levels + 2 AS would become the norm... But it never quite worked like that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    I wasn't trying to insinuate humanities are either worthless or unimportant. I just remain unconvinced that teaching how things should be seen, rather than letting people make up their own minds what they think is a good thing. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
    One of my favourite bits of Social Media is the film site Letterboxd, and I learn a lot from the more thoughtful reviewers there with their different perspectives on a piece. Often I see the film quite differently as a result and appreciate different perspectives. How others view these things alters my own perspective.

    As we get into higher education, the courses become more about approaches to a piece than the formulaic "correct answer" expected at GCSE.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,455
    Fascinating view behind the curtain of the tw@tter obsessed state of the media,

    Konstantin Kisin vs. NBC Journalist on Elon, UK Riots and Civil War
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pObVw7z6hog
  • I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,167
    "How Ukraine blew up the Nord Stream pipeline

    UnHerd"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVEx-jIh4vQ
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874
    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    The rest of us are glad that your career, and that of your colleagues, has been concentrating on how should WE live.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    David Packard got into computing at Cambridge, England writing programs to analyse grammatical cc constructions in Lucretius. He now funds the Packard humanities institute which does searchable databases of ancient inscriptions and Latin literature when he's not making WiFi printers which can't find a network.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Michael Gove was famously keen on humanities. It is an odd quirk that what the Americans call a liberal arts education is seen as left wing over there, but right wing over here.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    When I was at grammar school, two of our three PE teachers also taught Geography. The other taught French.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Ally_B1 said:

    I almost chose History as my fourth A-Level, but went for Chemistry in the end (With Maths, Further Maths and Physics).
    The great advantage of my choice is that it threw me into a readymade friendship group of the few of us who had done the same, and so had identical timetables.
    I'd have been pretty lost if I'd been the lone Maths/Further Maths/Physics student who combined that with History.

    The Grammar School I attended 50 years ago didn't allow one to mix A levels in that way because of timetabling. I suspect History was probably taught at the same time as say Chemistry or Physics. If you did Science subjects then you couldn't do History so I did the same as you.
    I can't fully remember (long time passing) but I think that might have been the case with me too. You couldn't just pick what you fancied. It had to be deemed to make sense as a combo.
  • Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    They are almost certainly better than the Geography PhD who taught me geography for two years. He lost control of the class of six Year 10 pupils that I was in…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,167

    Fascinating view behind the curtain of the tw@tter obsessed state of the media,

    Konstantin Kisin vs. NBC Journalist on Elon, UK Riots and Civil War
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pObVw7z6hog

    I hope Konstantin Kisin eventually ends up in the House of Commons. (Not bothered what party).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    It’s teaching 16 and 17 year olds to do pub quizzes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    I wasn't trying to insinuate humanities are either worthless or unimportant. I just remain unconvinced that teaching how things should be seen, rather than letting people make up their own minds what they think is a good thing. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
    What you’re describing sounds more like the arts than the humanities. Or are we working with different definitions, like with “woke”?

    When someone says humanities I think Geography, History, Economics, Religious studies etc.

    I did geography for my degree. Great subject for all rounders and people who can’t quite decide if they’re scientific or arty or a bit of both.
    Well I didn't mention woke at all but yes I guess, Geography in some respects is hard science its the odd one out, glaciaction ox bow lakes etc...hard science, social geography such as why do towns exist where they do more humanities.

    History and religous studies are definitely subjective to a certain extent with an establishment view of this means x. However x changes over time as research continues so subjective.....as for economics well thats just the science of explaining what we predicted would happen last year didn't happen....its more astrology than science
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,958
    FPT: A little bit of data, possibly, on Musk. In my area (well-off Seattle suburbs), as far as I can tell most Teslas were owned by nice folks worried about global warming. If anything, they seem to be more careful around the pedestrians than the average driver here.

    Not everyone here shares those sentiments about global warming and pedestrians, of course.
    For years I have been walking by a very large and expensive house that has been backing Trump with many, many signs.

    Yesterday, I again saw two Teslas parked in front of it, one red, one blue.

    I don't want to make too much of this. The cars may not even belong to the owners of the MAGA House (as I have been calling it). But I have begun to wonder whether those Teslas were there to make a political point.

    (I'll try to find a photo of the MAGA House to share with you by the end of this week, or possibly even earlier.)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    My A-Level general studies paper was a blast. There was a section where you had to name the place from a photograph. I think I had the Taj Mahal and Iguazu falls among other things. The sort of thing you can now do in online quizzes like where-taken.

    And I remember a great lesson (with videos) on the eras of music and art and how they reflected the same fashions: baroque, romantic, modernist, impressionist etc. I particularly liked Matisse dancers to the soundtrack of Stravinsky’s rite of spring. One of those eye opening moments that stick in the mind forever.

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    Ally_B1 said:

    I almost chose History as my fourth A-Level, but went for Chemistry in the end (With Maths, Further Maths and Physics).
    The great advantage of my choice is that it threw me into a readymade friendship group of the few of us who had done the same, and so had identical timetables.
    I'd have been pretty lost if I'd been the lone Maths/Further Maths/Physics student who combined that with History.

    The Grammar School I attended 50 years ago didn't allow one to mix A levels in that way because of timetabling. I suspect History was probably taught at the same time as say Chemistry or Physics. If you did Science subjects then you couldn't do History so I did the same as you.
    That could have been a valid excuse (resources are finite) but it could also have been lazy or inexperienced timetablers.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    https://bsky.app/profile/dianebolet.bsky.social/post/3l22vwy6zt422

    Exposure to an interview of Tommy Robinson leads people to think extreme right views are common and to agree with them. Exposure to an one in which the interviewer challenges his views leads to the former, but not the latter. Interesting study with implications for how the media should cover.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    When I was at grammar school, two of our three PE teachers also taught Geography. The other taught French.
    I don't think the PE teacher at my grammar taught anything. He took us for PE but I don't recall being taught anything.
  • Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    It’s teaching 16 and 17 year olds to do pub quizzes.
    I think only the Joint Matriculation Board offered it. Of my five A Levels it is probably the most useful one. The Foreign Language Paper stuffed by fellow science sixth formers who were crap at languages. That was really easy. And the History part was really Syllabus C History O Level. British Social and Economic.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720

    FPT: A little bit of data, possibly, on Musk. In my area (well-off Seattle suburbs), as far as I can tell most Teslas were owned by nice folks worried about global warming. If anything, they seem to be more careful around the pedestrians than the average driver here.

    Not everyone here shares those sentiments about global warming and pedestrians, of course.
    For years I have been walking by a very large and expensive house that has been backing Trump with many, many signs.

    Yesterday, I again saw two Teslas parked in front of it, one red, one blue.

    I don't want to make too much of this. The cars may not even belong to the owners of the MAGA House (as I have been calling it). But I have begun to wonder whether those Teslas were there to make a political point.

    (I'll try to find a photo of the MAGA House to share with you by the end of this week, or possibly even earlier.)

    To this and @williamglenn comment earlier, we were discussing the point as a family yesterday. Musk is probably the only person who could get American right wingers driving EVs. He may single-handedly have prevented electric cars from becoming a culture war flashpoint. Credit where credit is due.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    mercator said:

    David Packard got into computing at Cambridge, England writing programs to analyse grammatical cc constructions in Lucretius. He now funds the Packard humanities institute which does searchable databases of ancient inscriptions and Latin literature when he's not making WiFi printers which can't find a network.

    He also gives lots of money to charity. He used to fund my stepmum. (No jokes please.)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,167
    edited August 20
    MaxPB said:

    If you're asking young people to graduate with £50k worth of debt then the consequence of that will be the laser focus on future earnings when picking their degree. I think this is an intended consequence of the policy introduced by Labour when they increased fees the first time.

    I have no issue with young people shunning degree choices that won't result in a high earning career path, I think what needs to be addressed is why people with humanities degrees struggle to find higher paid jobs even 5-10 years after graduating. This has generally been my experience too among my friends from school and uni, those of us who chose STEM degrees or did medicine all had very well paid jobs within 5 years of graduating, those who chose arts or humanities were still stuck in various account management, call centre or other functionary job.

    The key here is to figure out why the current jobs market doesn't value the skillset being taught in those degrees and how universities need to update the courses to start teaching those skills that are in demand within the context of what is being learned. History is the classic example for me, my wife studied history at UCL and she's now a lead AML investigator in financial services which on the face of it seems like something that would need a skillset from maths or law, but her history degree gave her the skills to be a brilliant investigator and spot needles in haystacks to protect her company from adverse regulatory outcomes.

    If humanities and arts courses had properly kept up with the jobs market this wouldn't be an issue, I also think a lot of the jobs that people might get after a degree in one of those subjects are only available in closed shops like policy advice, think tanks, journalism etc... which heavily rely on who you know or who your parents/relatives know which puts off people who don't have that on their side. I think young people know that if they pick a course that has hard skills then they will only need to rely on themselves to get their first opening and that they won't be up against Olivia whose uncle knows the Editor and plays golf with him on the weekends etc...

    TL;DR - it's rational

    I still don't know why there wasn't a proper debate at the time between the only two possible options for university education: don't increase the numbers and continue with the grant system, or increase the numbers and have most students going into debt to pay their loans. There was a lot of magical thinking going on whereby you could increase students numbers and somehow the government would be able to pay for them all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    They are almost certainly better than the Geography PhD who taught me geography for two years. He lost control of the class of six Year 10 pupils that I was in…
    Should have made them do press ups when they talked back.

    PE teachers are infamous sadists, so not to be crossed.
  • strawbrickstrawbrick Posts: 22
    For a bit of historical context (i.e how things used to be), when I went to Cotham Grammar School in 1963, for the first year we were split into four forms by alphabetical order. We all did Maths, English, English Literature 1, Physics, Chemistry, Geography, French, Art, Music, History, Wood/Metalwork, Religious Education and PE. At the end of each academic year your total marks in English, French and Maths determined which form (stream) A, B, C or D you were in the for the next year. Latin was added for the A & B streams. Art and Music were dropped in the 3rd Year. Some subjects were dropped in the 4th Year, in my case History and also Physics and Chemistry were combined into Physics with Chemistry. In the 5th Year we were split into Arts and Science streams based on your overall marks in the end of 4th Year exams. In my case I was put into the Arts stream even though I wanted to be a Mechanical Engineer. The 6th Forms almost always carried on the previous streaming. There was a much reduced syllabus, in my case we did Maths, Physics, Chemistry, RE, PE with Greek Civilisation in one year and English Literature 2 the next.
    There was never any personal choice of subject or which Stream you went into - it was all decided for you on the basis of your exam marks.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    When I was at grammar school, two of our three PE teachers also taught Geography. The other taught French.
    I don't think the PE teacher at my grammar taught anything. He took us for PE but I don't recall being taught anything.
    In USA in most public schools - certainly my own circa 1970 - PE aka "Phys Ed" teachers are required to teach some other subject as well. Often pretty poorly, but that depends on the individual.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Michael Gove was famously keen on humanities. It is an odd quirk that what the Americans call a liberal arts education is seen as left wing over there, but right wing over here.

    Same goes for theological colleges!
  • Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    That looks like an Oxbridge Entrance Paper to me. You can hear Endeavour Morse asking these questions of Sargeant Lewis. A version of 7, "Is youth wasted on the young ?" is a staple of Young Farmers debating contests
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Pagan2 said:

    TimS said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    I wasn't trying to insinuate humanities are either worthless or unimportant. I just remain unconvinced that teaching how things should be seen, rather than letting people make up their own minds what they think is a good thing. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
    What you’re describing sounds more like the arts than the humanities. Or are we working with different definitions, like with “woke”?

    When someone says humanities I think Geography, History, Economics, Religious studies etc.

    I did geography for my degree. Great subject for all rounders and people who can’t quite decide if they’re scientific or arty or a bit of both.
    Well I didn't mention woke at all but yes I guess, Geography in some respects is hard science its the odd one out, glaciaction ox bow lakes etc...hard science, social geography such as why do towns exist where they do more humanities.

    History and religous studies are definitely subjective to a certain extent with an establishment view of this means x. However x changes over time as research continues so subjective.....as for economics well thats just the science of explaining what we predicted would happen last year didn't happen....its more astrology than science
    Economics at university level is very hard mathematics applied to very questionable assumptions and flaky data.

    History has too many options at A-level (maybe even GCSE) so that what is taught and even which countries' histories are taught vary widely from school to school. It is as if the English syllabus required an in-depth study of whichever books caught the teacher's fancy as they wandered through Smiths. I have some sympathy for those who would return to ambling gently through time from the stone age to last week.

    (Someone posted recently that if Back to the Future were to be remade with the same timescales, Marty would travel back all the way to 1994.)

  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,363
    edited August 20
    TimS said:

    FPT: A little bit of data, possibly, on Musk. In my area (well-off Seattle suburbs), as far as I can tell most Teslas were owned by nice folks worried about global warming. If anything, they seem to be more careful around the pedestrians than the average driver here.

    Not everyone here shares those sentiments about global warming and pedestrians, of course.
    For years I have been walking by a very large and expensive house that has been backing Trump with many, many signs.

    Yesterday, I again saw two Teslas parked in front of it, one red, one blue.

    I don't want to make too much of this. The cars may not even belong to the owners of the MAGA House (as I have been calling it). But I have begun to wonder whether those Teslas were there to make a political point.

    (I'll try to find a photo of the MAGA House to share with you by the end of this week, or possibly even earlier.)

    To this and @williamglenn comment earlier, we were discussing the point as a family yesterday. Musk is probably the only person who could get American right wingers driving EVs. He may single-handedly have prevented electric cars from becoming a culture war flashpoint. Credit where credit is due.
    I had also wondered if that was the method behind Musk's apparent madness. He's already got the libs driving EVs; now he's playing to the right-wing gallery in order to get the rednecks on board too. That would really be a masterful plan, so long as he doesn't actually go and get Trump reelected.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    They are almost certainly better than the Geography PhD who taught me geography for two years. He lost control of the class of six Year 10 pupils that I was in…
    Should have made them do press ups when they talked back.

    PE teachers are infamous sadists, so not to be crossed.
    One of the problems with discussing teaching is that everybody thinks they are an expert because they went to school, even if that experience was decades ago.
    Similarly health care and the NHS, because everyone has been poorly at some point. We are all subject to anecdata bias.
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 134



    I have a U in English Lit, which I'm quite proud of.

    Conversely I got an A in the subject, without even properly reading the set texts.

    I wrote a bunch of twatty stuff about themes of racism and sexism in Shakespeare for my main coursework, assuming cynically (and correctly) that the examiners would lap it up.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Foxy said:

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    They are almost certainly better than the Geography PhD who taught me geography for two years. He lost control of the class of six Year 10 pupils that I was in…
    Should have made them do press ups when they talked back.

    PE teachers are infamous sadists, so not to be crossed.
    One of the problems with discussing teaching is that everybody thinks they are an expert because they went to school, even if that experience was decades ago.
    My father, qualified as a teacher in 1934, then spent 5 years as an armourer in the RAF went back to teaching in 1945 but gave up to help his wife in her business in 1950.
    He remained an 'expert' on teaching and indeed education pretty well to the end of his days.
    Caused my sister and myself no end of grief.
  • I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    When I was at grammar school, two of our three PE teachers also taught Geography. The other taught French.
    I don't think the PE teacher at my grammar taught anything. He took us for PE but I don't recall being taught anything.
    In USA in most public schools - certainly my own circa 1970 - PE aka "Phys Ed" teachers are required to teach some other subject as well. Often pretty poorly, but that depends on the individual.
    The male PE Teacher for my first two years taught Physics and Chemistry better than the proper teachers. Not sure what his successor taught, certainly not me.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Nigel Farage jets off to US AGAIN for second time in seven weeks since he became Clacton MP
    Nigel Farage is the keynote speaker at Saturday’s “Keep Arizona Free Summit”

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage-jets-again-bags-33502237
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    That looks like an Oxbridge Entrance Paper to me. You can hear Endeavour Morse asking these questions of Sargeant Lewis. A version of 7, "Is youth wasted on the young ?" is a staple of Young Farmers debating contests
    The best essay questions allow candidates to show what they know and how well they can argue at a wide range of ability levels.

    What level do you think this paper was?


    ESSAYS.

    Write an Essay on one of the following subjects :
    Livery and Uniform.
    The Alps in History.
    Diplomacy:
    Historical Impartiality.
    Poetry and Politics.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    When I was at grammar school, two of our three PE teachers also taught Geography. The other taught French.
    I don't think the PE teacher at my grammar taught anything. He took us for PE but I don't recall being taught anything.
    In USA in most public schools - certainly my own circa 1970 - PE aka "Phys Ed" teachers are required to teach some other subject as well. Often pretty poorly, but that depends on the individual.
    Yes, when I was at High School in Atlanta, we had "Coaches" teaching subjects like Geography, civics and sex Ed. Sport was quite a big thing there so they were treated with awe, even when they were pants at their subject. One coach taught us Geography by getting us to play Risk. Even now there must be Rednecks in Georgia that can locate Kamchatka on the map.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    What you study is unimportant.

    It's how you study which creates future benefits - research, analysis, the ability to write coherently and to put forward a concise evidence-based argument are the tools you need in many administrative and non-administrative roles.

    Learning those disciplines should prepare you for some of the aspects of work though not all. Workplace cultures vary significantly from organisation to organisation. The skills required are adaptability and flexibility so it hurts to have too rigid a mindset.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    When I was at grammar school, two of our three PE teachers also taught Geography. The other taught French.
    I don't think the PE teacher at my grammar taught anything. He took us for PE but I don't recall being taught anything.
    In USA in most public schools - certainly my own circa 1970 - PE aka "Phys Ed" teachers are required to teach some other subject as well. Often pretty poorly, but that depends on the individual.
    One of my PE teachers taught geography, the other did history.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    If you're asking young people to graduate with £50k worth of debt then the consequence of that will be the laser focus on future earnings when picking their degree. I think this is an intended consequence of the policy introduced by Labour when they increased fees the first time.

    I have no issue with young people shunning degree choices that won't result in a high earning career path, I think what needs to be addressed is why people with humanities degrees struggle to find higher paid jobs even 5-10 years after graduating. This has generally been my experience too among my friends from school and uni, those of us who chose STEM degrees or did medicine all had very well paid jobs within 5 years of graduating, those who chose arts or humanities were still stuck in various account management, call centre or other functionary job.

    The key here is to figure out why the current jobs market doesn't value the skillset being taught in those degrees and how universities need to update the courses to start teaching those skills that are in demand within the context of what is being learned. History is the classic example for me, my wife studied history at UCL and she's now a lead AML investigator in financial services which on the face of it seems like something that would need a skillset from maths or law, but her history degree gave her the skills to be a brilliant investigator and spot needles in haystacks to protect her company from adverse regulatory outcomes.

    If humanities and arts courses had properly kept up with the jobs market this wouldn't be an issue, I also think a lot of the jobs that people might get after a degree in one of those subjects are only available in closed shops like policy advice, think tanks, journalism etc... which heavily rely on who you know or who your parents/relatives know which puts off people who don't have that on their side. I think young people know that if they pick a course that has hard skills then they will only need to rely on themselves to get their first opening and that they won't be up against Olivia whose uncle knows the Editor and plays golf with him on the weekends etc...

    TL;DR - it's rational

    I still don't know why there wasn't a proper debate at the time between the only two possible options for university education: don't increase the numbers and continue with the grant system, or increase the numbers and have most students going into debt to pay their loans. There was a lot of magical thinking going on whereby you could increase students numbers and somehow the government would be able to pay for them all.
    Graduates earn more than non-graduates, so if we increase the number of graduates, more people will earn more money, thus expanding the economy and paying more tax which will pay for universities. It is a virtuous circle.

    That is the magical thinking. It is not wholly without merit but, well, shades of Lucy Letby.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Andy_JS said:

    Fascinating view behind the curtain of the tw@tter obsessed state of the media,

    Konstantin Kisin vs. NBC Journalist on Elon, UK Riots and Civil War
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pObVw7z6hog

    I hope Konstantin Kisin eventually ends up in the House of Commons. (Not bothered what party).
    Not sure he would ever want to be a partisan MP, and he can make much better money as a self-employed member of the media; but he’s exactly the sort of person who would be very useful in the Lords, the guy who would research the actual issues behind a Bill and come prepared to argue both sides.
  • Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Foxy said:

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    They are almost certainly better than the Geography PhD who taught me geography for two years. He lost control of the class of six Year 10 pupils that I was in…
    Should have made them do press ups when they talked back.

    PE teachers are infamous sadists, so not to be crossed.
    One of the problems with discussing teaching is that everybody thinks they are an expert because they went to school, even if that experience was decades ago.
    Unless they do a stint as a school governor, by the end of which they sometimes realise the depth of their ignorance.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,924
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    My A-Level general studies paper was a blast. There was a section where you had to name the place from a photograph. I think I had the Taj Mahal and Iguazu falls among other things. The sort of thing you can now do in online quizzes like where-taken.

    And I remember a great lesson (with videos) on the eras of music and art and how they reflected the same fashions: baroque, romantic, modernist, impressionist etc. I particularly liked Matisse dancers to the soundtrack of Stravinsky’s rite of spring. One of those eye opening moments that stick in the mind forever.

    I am eternally grateful for A Level General Studies, without which I would never have gone to Cambridge.

    I will always remember the map of the Middle East where you needed to name the countries. Indeed, I would suggest that the only exam that people should do should be General Studies.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    Modern PE teachers are probably teaching Sport Science when not actually standing in a muddy field or sports hall.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
    I did Nuffield Physics and Nuffield Chemistry. Loads of experiments to make it fun, but pretty taxing too.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
    Killed off by the brutal coursework requirements: marking it was a nightmare.
  • Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    I’d be interested to see how the mix has changed over a longer time period. I’m fairly sure that when I was doing my A-levels back in the eighties there was almost no mixing with the possible exception of Geography which didn’t seem to know if it were a humanity or science.

    One thing that has changed at the school I teach at over the last decade or so is that pupils are no longer asked to pick one subject from pre-populated columns, but rather they list their chosen three or four subjects and it is my job to put them into four groups that can be timetabled such that as many as possible can do what they want: we normally get about 99% satisfied.

    From my very brief spell as a trainee teacher, I got the impression that Geography was invented in order to provide PE teachers with an academic subject.
    They are almost certainly better than the Geography PhD who taught me geography for two years. He lost control of the class of six Year 10 pupils that I was in…
    Should have made them do press ups when they talked back.

    PE teachers are infamous sadists, so not to be crossed.
    One of the problems with discussing teaching is that everybody thinks they are an expert because they went to school, even if that experience was decades ago.
    Unless they do a stint as a school governor, by the end of which they sometimes realise the depth of their ignorance.
    And yet we are happy to have people who have never been in industry or worked on a farm running Industrial Policy or Agricultural Policy.

    Not far from here we have a retired teaching couple who have come to show us all how to farm. so far, D minus
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,167
    A reminder of this, (from March this year).

    "Police solve no burglaries in half of the country
    Charging rate across England and Wales continues to fall despite forces’ pledge to attend every scene"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/03/police-fail-to-solve-single-burglary-in-half-of-country
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Scotland's drug deaths still worst in Europe after 12% rise
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y5ll3ler7o
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    If you're asking young people to graduate with £50k worth of debt then the consequence of that will be the laser focus on future earnings when picking their degree. I think this is an intended consequence of the policy introduced by Labour when they increased fees the first time.

    I have no issue with young people shunning degree choices that won't result in a high earning career path, I think what needs to be addressed is why people with humanities degrees struggle to find higher paid jobs even 5-10 years after graduating. This has generally been my experience too among my friends from school and uni, those of us who chose STEM degrees or did medicine all had very well paid jobs within 5 years of graduating, those who chose arts or humanities were still stuck in various account management, call centre or other functionary job.

    The key here is to figure out why the current jobs market doesn't value the skillset being taught in those degrees and how universities need to update the courses to start teaching those skills that are in demand within the context of what is being learned. History is the classic example for me, my wife studied history at UCL and she's now a lead AML investigator in financial services which on the face of it seems like something that would need a skillset from maths or law, but her history degree gave her the skills to be a brilliant investigator and spot needles in haystacks to protect her company from adverse regulatory outcomes.

    If humanities and arts courses had properly kept up with the jobs market this wouldn't be an issue, I also think a lot of the jobs that people might get after a degree in one of those subjects are only available in closed shops like policy advice, think tanks, journalism etc... which heavily rely on who you know or who your parents/relatives know which puts off people who don't have that on their side. I think young people know that if they pick a course that has hard skills then they will only need to rely on themselves to get their first opening and that they won't be up against Olivia whose uncle knows the Editor and plays golf with him on the weekends etc...

    TL;DR - it's rational

    I still don't know why there wasn't a proper debate at the time between the only two possible options for university education: don't increase the numbers and continue with the grant system, or increase the numbers and have most students going into debt to pay their loans. There was a lot of magical thinking going on whereby you could increase students numbers and somehow the government would be able to pay for them all.
    Graduates earn more than non-graduates, so if we increase the number of graduates, more people will earn more money, thus expanding the economy and paying more tax which will pay for universities. It is a virtuous circle.

    That is the magical thinking. It is not wholly without merit but, well, shades of Lucy Letby.
    An educated workforce is a spur to economic growth, provided of course that the education was good quality.

    Though rather as a sports team improves by working on its worst players skills, our national education system should put effort into our worst performers.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 637
    Interesting header...

    At my school back in the mists of time (1980s) the timetable restricted what you could mix. For some reason my (boys only) school churned out a production line of dull Maths Physics and Chemistry A level students (well over half) but you could take English, French or Geography with Maths and Physics or Maths with the Humanities but otherwise you had to decide which side of the fence you were on. And no chance of doing 4 A Levels unless one was Further Maths. In fact my school wouldn't let you study English, History and Geography together as it the workload was considered too heavy for anyone to pass all three successfully.

    I ended up doing Geography; the ability to see the whole landscape as well as being able to drill down to the detail where needed has given me exactly the right skill set as an IT Project Manager, after a somewhat circuitous start to my career until I found what I was good at.
  • Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    That looks like an Oxbridge Entrance Paper to me. You can hear Endeavour Morse asking these questions of Sargeant Lewis. A version of 7, "Is youth wasted on the young ?" is a staple of Young Farmers debating contests
    The best essay questions allow candidates to show what they know and how well they can argue at a wide range of ability levels.

    What level do you think this paper was?


    ESSAYS.

    Write an Essay on one of the following subjects :
    Livery and Uniform.
    The Alps in History.
    Diplomacy:
    Historical Impartiality.
    Poetry and Politics.
    I guess that would be post grad
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    If you're asking young people to graduate with £50k worth of debt then the consequence of that will be the laser focus on future earnings when picking their degree. I think this is an intended consequence of the policy introduced by Labour when they increased fees the first time.

    I have no issue with young people shunning degree choices that won't result in a high earning career path, I think what needs to be addressed is why people with humanities degrees struggle to find higher paid jobs even 5-10 years after graduating. This has generally been my experience too among my friends from school and uni, those of us who chose STEM degrees or did medicine all had very well paid jobs within 5 years of graduating, those who chose arts or humanities were still stuck in various account management, call centre or other functionary job.

    The key here is to figure out why the current jobs market doesn't value the skillset being taught in those degrees and how universities need to update the courses to start teaching those skills that are in demand within the context of what is being learned. History is the classic example for me, my wife studied history at UCL and she's now a lead AML investigator in financial services which on the face of it seems like something that would need a skillset from maths or law, but her history degree gave her the skills to be a brilliant investigator and spot needles in haystacks to protect her company from adverse regulatory outcomes.

    If humanities and arts courses had properly kept up with the jobs market this wouldn't be an issue, I also think a lot of the jobs that people might get after a degree in one of those subjects are only available in closed shops like policy advice, think tanks, journalism etc... which heavily rely on who you know or who your parents/relatives know which puts off people who don't have that on their side. I think young people know that if they pick a course that has hard skills then they will only need to rely on themselves to get their first opening and that they won't be up against Olivia whose uncle knows the Editor and plays golf with him on the weekends etc...

    TL;DR - it's rational

    I still don't know why there wasn't a proper debate at the time between the only two possible options for university education: don't increase the numbers and continue with the grant system, or increase the numbers and have most students going into debt to pay their loans. There was a lot of magical thinking going on whereby you could increase students numbers and somehow the government would be able to pay for them all.
    Graduates earn more than non-graduates, so if we increase the number of graduates, more people will earn more money, thus expanding the economy and paying more tax which will pay for universities. It is a virtuous circle.

    That is the magical thinking. It is not wholly without merit but, well, shades of Lucy Letby.
    The trouble is it means a lot of jobs that were done by school leavers with either o levels or a levels now look for degrees. The jobs didn't get more complex to do just the educational bar was raised. Last job I had floor below us was an insurance company...most of those I chatted to outside in the break area were there to read a script and fill out a form....they all had degrees
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    edited August 20

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    That looks like an Oxbridge Entrance Paper to me. You can hear Endeavour Morse asking these questions of Sargeant Lewis. A version of 7, "Is youth wasted on the young ?" is a staple of Young Farmers debating contests
    The best essay questions allow candidates to show what they know and how well they can argue at a wide range of ability levels.

    What level do you think this paper was?


    ESSAYS.

    Write an Essay on one of the following subjects :
    Livery and Uniform.
    The Alps in History.
    Diplomacy:
    Historical Impartiality.
    Poetry and Politics.
    I guess that would be post grad
    Here is the full version:
    ESSAYS.
    THE VICTORIA UNIVERSITY OF MANCHESTER.
    HONOURS SCHOOL OF HISTORY.
    PART II.
    V.
    June 7th, 1929, 9-45-12-45.
    Write an Essay on one of the following subjects :
    Livery and Uniform.
    The Alps in History.
    Diplomacy:
    Historical Impartiality.
    Poetry and Politics.

    It was one of my grandmother’s finals papers.

    Edit: and yes, that is the whole three hour paper.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    If you're asking young people to graduate with £50k worth of debt then the consequence of that will be the laser focus on future earnings when picking their degree. I think this is an intended consequence of the policy introduced by Labour when they increased fees the first time.

    I have no issue with young people shunning degree choices that won't result in a high earning career path, I think what needs to be addressed is why people with humanities degrees struggle to find higher paid jobs even 5-10 years after graduating. This has generally been my experience too among my friends from school and uni, those of us who chose STEM degrees or did medicine all had very well paid jobs within 5 years of graduating, those who chose arts or humanities were still stuck in various account management, call centre or other functionary job.

    The key here is to figure out why the current jobs market doesn't value the skillset being taught in those degrees and how universities need to update the courses to start teaching those skills that are in demand within the context of what is being learned. History is the classic example for me, my wife studied history at UCL and she's now a lead AML investigator in financial services which on the face of it seems like something that would need a skillset from maths or law, but her history degree gave her the skills to be a brilliant investigator and spot needles in haystacks to protect her company from adverse regulatory outcomes.

    If humanities and arts courses had properly kept up with the jobs market this wouldn't be an issue, I also think a lot of the jobs that people might get after a degree in one of those subjects are only available in closed shops like policy advice, think tanks, journalism etc... which heavily rely on who you know or who your parents/relatives know which puts off people who don't have that on their side. I think young people know that if they pick a course that has hard skills then they will only need to rely on themselves to get their first opening and that they won't be up against Olivia whose uncle knows the Editor and plays golf with him on the weekends etc...

    TL;DR - it's rational

    I still don't know why there wasn't a proper debate at the time between the only two possible options for university education: don't increase the numbers and continue with the grant system, or increase the numbers and have most students going into debt to pay their loans. There was a lot of magical thinking going on whereby you could increase students numbers and somehow the government would be able to pay for them all.
    There is a breed of PB Tories who are very concerned at the debt incurred by other people's children. So what is their solution to this concern they have? Obviously, make higher education exclusively elite and free at the point of delivery for their children.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Wish I had a proper choice. So long ago that there wasnt much six form at my school and it was almost impossible due to timetabling and teacher availability to do an "odd" combination like history, physics and maths. There were basically two streams - all STEM or all Humanities.

    I reluctantly dropped history and did another STEM.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
    Some of their spirit morphed into projects like Slaters Chemistry, Advancing Physics at A Level and 21st Century Science at GCSE. My impression is that they are all struggling for numbers these days. They're all a bit quirky, and schools tend to prefer something they can get students through more reliably. They're also quite practical-heavy, which makes them expensive to run.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Andy_JS said:

    A reminder of this, (from March this year).

    "Police solve no burglaries in half of the country
    Charging rate across England and Wales continues to fall despite forces’ pledge to attend every scene"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/03/police-fail-to-solve-single-burglary-in-half-of-country

    Can't get past the pay wall, but are the Telegraph aware of who was in government in March?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Wish I had a proper choice. So long ago that there wasnt much six form at my school and it was almost impossible due to timetabling and teacher availability to do an "odd" combination like history, physics and maths. There were basically two streams - all STEM or all Humanities.

    I reluctantly dropped history and did another STEM.

    One of the disadvantages of small schools, particularly small sixth-forms.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
    I did Nuffield Physics and Nuffield Chemistry. Loads of experiments to make it fun, but pretty taxing too.
    I did Nuffield physics. We all thought a lot of it was bonkers at the time. I remember thought experiments involving elephants on roller skates. But the teacher was one of our best.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548

    Nigel Farage jets off to US AGAIN for second time in seven weeks since he became Clacton MP
    Nigel Farage is the keynote speaker at Saturday’s “Keep Arizona Free Summit”

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage-jets-again-bags-33502237

    Is Nigel Farage's role, to make a certifiable nutjob like Kari Lake appear the Voice of Reason by comparison?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Nigel Farage jets off to US AGAIN for second time in seven weeks since he became Clacton MP
    Nigel Farage is the keynote speaker at Saturday’s “Keep Arizona Free Summit”

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage-jets-again-bags-33502237

    I'm guessing all this US shite was arranged months ago before he decided to become Clacton's MP in a last minute change of plans.

    If Sunak had waited until October to call election then there is no way Farage would have been free to run and Reform would have half the vote they got.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Walking Tour of the Democratic National Convention at United Center in Chicago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISkI1YdA3AI
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited August 20

    Scotland's drug deaths still worst in Europe after 12% rise
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y5ll3ler7o

    One notable feature - the average age has gone up by more than a decade since 2000. Average drug death is now at the age of 45.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24529497.five-key-points-scottish-drugs-deaths-figures/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    rcs1000 said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    So did I. GS was the most bizarre subject - an apparently completely random mix of topics - but a pleasant diversion from the sciences.
    We had a General Paper as part of O-Level History. Here are some of the questions:


    2 Why does the British government insist that some of its records must be kept secret for up to eighty years? Can this policy be justified?
    3 The Romans kept slaves and enjoyed watching criminals being eaten alive by wild animals. Is it right that historians should speak of Roman civilisation?
    4 Are famines caused by men or nature?
    5 What has marine archaeology contributed to our knowledge of the past?
    6 A fine suit of armour, made by a medieval Italian craftsman for a German prince, was taken from his descendant's castle by one of Napoleon's generals and conveyed to Paris. Fifty years later it was sold to an English collector whose grandson now wishes to sell it to an American museum. Is it part of Britain's heritage? If not, whose?
    7 Is childhood happier today than in the past?
    8 What have popular films done for the appreciation of history?
    9 History contains many unsolved mysteries. Give an account of one or more and offer your own solution.
    10 "Those who live by the sword, shall perish by the sword.' Do they?
    11
    Explain two of the following and show their historical importance: pacifism; the class war; racialism; terrorism; minority rights; inflation; religious intolerance; the Third World.
    12 Describe a country house which you have visited. What does its design, fittings and surroundings tell you about the lives of the people who lived there?

    We had to do three in two hours.
    My A-Level general studies paper was a blast. There was a section where you had to name the place from a photograph. I think I had the Taj Mahal and Iguazu falls among other things. The sort of thing you can now do in online quizzes like where-taken.

    And I remember a great lesson (with videos) on the eras of music and art and how they reflected the same fashions: baroque, romantic, modernist, impressionist etc. I particularly liked Matisse dancers to the soundtrack of Stravinsky’s rite of spring. One of those eye opening moments that stick in the mind forever.

    I am eternally grateful for A Level General Studies, without which I would never have gone to Cambridge.

    I will always remember the map of the Middle East where you needed to name the countries. Indeed, I would suggest that the only exam that people should do should be General Studies.
    I sarcastically told the teacher in charge of six form studies that General Studies was simply a test of middle-classness which cemented my reputation of being a sarky pain in the arse.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited August 20

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
    Some of their spirit morphed into projects like Slaters Chemistry, Advancing Physics at A Level and 21st Century Science at GCSE. My impression is that they are all struggling for numbers these days. They're all a bit quirky, and schools tend to prefer something they can get students through more reliably. They're also quite practical-heavy, which makes them expensive to run.
    I dimly recall a letter in Chemistry in Britain hoping that Baron Mercedes and Viscount Datsun were likewise damaging science education for our competitors.

    ETA for younger PBers, Nuffield Science came from the thinktank of Lord Nuffield aka Morris cars.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Wish I had a proper choice. So long ago that there wasnt much six form at my school and it was almost impossible due to timetabling and teacher availability to do an "odd" combination like history, physics and maths. There were basically two streams - all STEM or all Humanities.

    I reluctantly dropped history and did another STEM.

    One of the disadvantages of small schools, particularly small sixth-forms.

    It was a huge comprehensive with a small six form as everyone left at 16 in them days to work in the factories.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Foxy said:

    I did Maths, Physics and Chemistry, and General Studies. GS was like a qualification via a pub quiz.

    It did mean that my love of history, sociology, geography, theology, literature, film, music and art were unspoiled by having to write essays or take examinations. I could just follow my interests.

    As I near retirement I realise how important the humanities are in answering the only question in life which needs serious consideration: "How should we live?"

    In 1978 I did five A Levels along with two others at a Grammar School, now a Comprehensive. I did Maths, Further Maths, Traditional Physics, Nuffield Chemistry and General Studies - B, C, A, A and A. I also did S Level Maths getting a 2 and Use of English, a B I think. Then I became a Farmer and History Researcher, amateur but serious. I have often been told I am better at history research because I didn't do History A Level.
    As we are being discursive about school subjects today, what ever happened to Nuffield Sciences ?
    Killed off by the brutal coursework requirements: marking it was a nightmare.
    I don't remember loads of coursework. I did Nuffield Physics in v early 80s. Maybe I have just forgotten?
This discussion has been closed.