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Will the Ayatollahs decide the US election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,179
edited August 26 in General
imageWill the Ayatollahs decide the US election? – politicalbetting.com

The smart money seems to be moving to Kamala Harris as she rides a wave of Democratic party enthusiasm and her polling shows an edge in key swing states. Although one should always remember the old adage that no ordinary voter switches on to the candidates before Labor Day, there’s a feeling building that this may well be Trump’s last stand. A successful convention this week and a big speech by the Vice President may further secure the polls.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    The Russians are probably also pressing the Iranians to kick something (else) off in the Middle East to distract attention from Ukraine. That's bound to weigh on the Ayatollahs given they are very reliant on Russian support to survive.

    The other thing to remember is Khamanei is 85 (birthday yesterday, indeed) and is rumoured to have cancer. With Raisi's death the succession is very much up in the air and there may be much jockeying for position.

    All that said, however, one thought that does occur to me is if Iran attacks Israel, even through Hizbollah, that might help US politics. It then becomes about Israel fighting for survival and not about them blowing up random Gazans. And ultimately it's hard to see most voters in the US, even the Democratic Muslim vote, siding with Iran in such circumstances.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,375
    Real first
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    malcolmg said:

    Real first

    Ah, like the SNP after the next Scottish elections? :wink:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258

    It'll be really Shi'ite if the Iranians are responsible for Donald Trump winning this November.

    Thanks for the piece Rotten Borough.

    That piece is no ray of Sunni shine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    QTWTAIN
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Though they might try.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701
    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    edited August 20
    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    Rich people did pay more, my tax rate went from 40% to 45%.

    My personal allowance was also stolen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war not 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    I don't think anyone expects them to send troops, but they are obliged to send weapons.

    https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-israel/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    edited August 20
    ydoethur said:

    The Russians are probably also pressing the Iranians to kick something (else) off in the Middle East to distract attention from Ukraine. That's bound to weigh on the Ayatollahs given they are very reliant on Russian support to survive.

    The other thing to remember is Khamanei is 85 (birthday yesterday, indeed) and is rumoured to have cancer. With Raisi's death the succession is very much up in the air and there may be much jockeying for position.

    All that said, however, one thought that does occur to me is if Iran attacks Israel, even through Hizbollah, that might help US politics. It then becomes about Israel fighting for survival and not about them blowing up random Gazans. And ultimately it's hard to see most voters in the US, even the Democratic Muslim vote, siding with Iran in such circumstances.

    It seems unlikely that an Iranian attack will be existential for Israel. Iran isn’t going to (and can’t) launch a full-scale invasion. An Iranian attack will, rather, be what we’ve seen before, maybe a few rockets, a bunch of drones, and then Israel will do the same back again.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    There hasn't been much to get excited about with the new government (for me) so far, but this sounds promising: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/aug/20/labour-investment-cycling-walking-unprecedented-louise-haigh?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    The Conservative's boost in walking/cycling funding in 2020 was one of the more long-sighted things they did during a public health crisis. The 50% cut in 2022 the opposite.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701
    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,701

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,545
    rcs1000 said:

    It'll be really Shi'ite if the Iranians are responsible for Donald Trump winning this November.

    Thanks for the piece Rotten Borough.

    That piece is no ray of Sunni shine.
    Hopefully Kamala Harris doesn't have a hubristic Sheffield Rally moment where she starts yelling "We're Al-awite! We're Al-awite!"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Good morning, everyone.

    There's a man, in Iran...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iPgOBoqsaQ
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    Amazing what they can do with AI nowadays isn't it?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    No spin required I think. Dementia sufferers are not always demented particularly in the early stages. What is now clear is that Biden needed to go anyway whatever his state of health because his sheer age shielded 78 year old trump from age related attack.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
    Anyone who uses London City Airport.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    mercator said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    No spin required I think. Dementia sufferers are not always demented particularly in the early stages. What is now clear is that Biden needed to go anyway whatever his state of health because his sheer age shielded 78 year old trump from age related attack.
    Biden demonstrated he is still a great deal sharper than Trump, who went off on one about electricity again yesterday.

    But they're both too old, and his decision to withdraw even if made for the wrong reasons was the right decision.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    edited August 20
    Interesting piece @rottenborough, thanks. However, I think (hope) you are worrying too much over this one.

    Other black swans are also available of course but arguably we've already had two this summer- Trump's assassination attempt and Biden stepping down. Enough already.
  • ArchvaldorArchvaldor Posts: 18
    "The smart money seems to be moving to Kamala Harris as she rides a wave of Democratic party enthusiasm and her polling shows an edge in key swing states" Smart money doesn't simply follow polling and whatever other people are betting on. You have to have information other people don't by definition to prosper from betting.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    The 40,000 pro-Palestinian DNC protesters seems somewhat diminished:

    A crowd of close to 3,000 people from more than 270 different organizations came together to form the coalition to protest.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-march-dnc/

    So, fewer than 3,000.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
    Anyone who uses London City Airport.
    Anyone who earns five grand a year more than somebody on an NHS pension?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Mr. Valdor, welcome to PB.

    Blind luck and good judgement help too. One of my favourite winning bets was fairly long odds on Perez to be top 6 at some race a decade or so ago. I didn't realise he had a grid penalty, thus explaining the long odds. Utter fluke, but he ended up getting the result I needed anyway.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861

    It'll be really Shi'ite if the Iranians are responsible for Donald Trump winning this November.

    Thanks for the piece Rotten Borough.

    Thanks @TSE

    Even war may not be enough to rescue Trump if his personal meltdown continues. But let's hope the Iranian choose a way to demonstrate a response without pulling the whole shooting match down on the middle east.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    ydoethur said:

    mercator said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    No spin required I think. Dementia sufferers are not always demented particularly in the early stages. What is now clear is that Biden needed to go anyway whatever his state of health because his sheer age shielded 78 year old trump from age related attack.
    Biden demonstrated he is still a great deal sharper than Trump, who went off on one about electricity again yesterday.

    But they're both too old, and his decision to withdraw even if made for the wrong reasons was the right decision.
    That was clear right after the debate.

    But it's also clear that he's capable of discharging the office, and likely to remain so until the end of his term.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861
    ydoethur said:

    The Russians are probably also pressing the Iranians to kick something (else) off in the Middle East to distract attention from Ukraine. That's bound to weigh on the Ayatollahs given they are very reliant on Russian support to survive.

    The other thing to remember is Khamanei is 85 (birthday yesterday, indeed) and is rumoured to have cancer. With Raisi's death the succession is very much up in the air and there may be much jockeying for position.

    All that said, however, one thought that does occur to me is if Iran attacks Israel, even through Hizbollah, that might help US politics. It then becomes about Israel fighting for survival and not about them blowing up random Gazans. And ultimately it's hard to see most voters in the US, even the Democratic Muslim vote, siding with Iran in such circumstances.

    Indeed, thay may stay their hand. Iranian recent record has been to demonstrate they are pissed off at something Israel have done but to do it in a way that doesn't actually kick a war off. So far...
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    I must be in a small minority who think William Hague's campaign to "save the pound" at the 2001 election was logical based on the evidence available at the time, that a 2nd Labour term would probably lead us into joining the Euro.

    It failed for the same reasons the Liberal Democrats did with their "Stop Brexit" manifesto in 2019, and because Blair promised a referendum on joining the Euro in any event.

    That doesn't mean strategically it was a bad move: it could easily have yielded 20-30 extra seats on a different day, and the alternative might have been to lose seats and get virtually no votes at all.

    There wasn't a huge amount else for Hague for run on at the time given he was nowhere near a serious challenger for an alternative administration.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861
    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    Can't see US troops being on the ground but plenty of air action and long range missile support perhaps.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Indeed, once she takes office things might be different, but not before.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    The 40,000 pro-Palestinian DNC protesters seems somewhat diminished:

    A crowd of close to 3,000 people from more than 270 different organizations came together to form the coalition to protest.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-march-dnc/

    So, fewer than 3,000.

    Gosh.

    That's barely enough for a Donald Trump mass rally.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,536
    edited August 20
    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Not if they risk losing office as a result, Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP if he put boots on the ground in Israel
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,622
    edited August 20

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
    Anyone who uses London City Airport.
    Whereas "very rich" is anyone who takes the helicopter to Marshalls in Cambridge, and picks up the private Dreamliner to wherever from there.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    edited August 20

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
    Considerably richer than yow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex45znGdECE
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    edited August 20
    ydoethur said:

    The 40,000 pro-Palestinian DNC protesters seems somewhat diminished:

    A crowd of close to 3,000 people from more than 270 different organizations came together to form the coalition to protest.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-march-dnc/

    So, fewer than 3,000.

    Gosh.

    That's barely enough for a Donald Trump mass rally.
    Trump: "Krazy Kackling Kamala couldn't even raise a crowd 3,000 at her Chicago rally."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,449
    edited August 20
    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    Surely we don't have to invite him back for a farewell tour, but just reminisce his greatest hits. Don't you remember post after post after post of bile laden invective following Biden's unfortunate debate with Trump? And if you can't remember you could always ask ChatGPT to write you a series of gloriously unempathetic narratives in the great man's style that you could keep for posterity.

    Anyway, how do you know he isn't already back incognito, and just limbering up for another lengthy campaign of breakfast photography and right-wing tomfoolery?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,536
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Indeed they do. Dubya came in as quite isolationist. 911 changed that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    The government will argue about how much of the pay rise given to train drivers, will come back as Labour Party donations from the RMT?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809
    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Not if they risk losing office as a result, Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP if he put boots on the ground in Israel
    Neither of those events is going to happen.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209
    ydoethur said:

    The Russians are probably also pressing the Iranians to kick something (else) off in the Middle East to distract attention from Ukraine. That's bound to weigh on the Ayatollahs given they are very reliant on Russian support to survive.

    The other thing to remember is Khamanei is 85 (birthday yesterday, indeed) and is rumoured to have cancer. With Raisi's death the succession is very much up in the air and there may be much jockeying for position.

    All that said, however, one thought that does occur to me is if Iran attacks Israel, even through Hizbollah, that might help US politics. It then becomes about Israel fighting for survival and not about them blowing up random Gazans. And ultimately it's hard to see most voters in the US, even the Democratic Muslim vote, siding with Iran in such circumstances.

    I suspect the power balance is on the other foot. Iran has been supplying Russia with weapons at some cost to its other interests. They have favours they can call in. Russia is generally in with Israel on for example Syria but the new Iran connection complicates things for them.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    mercator said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    No spin required I think. Dementia sufferers are not always demented particularly in the early stages. What is now clear is that Biden needed to go anyway whatever his state of health because his sheer age shielded 78 year old trump from age related attack.
    Biden demonstrated he is still a great deal sharper than Trump, who went off on one about electricity again yesterday.

    But they're both too old, and his decision to withdraw even if made for the wrong reasons was the right decision.
    That was clear right after the debate.

    But it's also clear that he's capable of discharging the office, and likely to remain so until the end of his term.
    Quite. And that's good news for the Dems as it counters any claim that he has been demented for ages and they were covering it up.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809
    Interesting that Sweden has brought down its number of asylum seekers drastically while being in Shengen and not shipping people to Rwanda.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/19/sweden-negative-net-immigration-figure-record-low-asylum-application-global-displacement
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Not if they risk losing office as a result, Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP if he put boots on the ground in Israel
    Neither of those events is going to happen.
    "Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP"

    Really?

    I don't think so.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,545

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    I believe they said something similar about the Danes.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    mwadams said:

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
    Anyone who uses London City Airport.
    Whereas "very rich" is anyone who takes the helicopter to Marshalls in Cambridge, and picks up the private Dreamliner to wherever from there.
    A mate of mine once got a helicopter to Marshalls, then dropped in to see me at my workplace on Newmarket Road, just down the road. But he was on a business trip with BAE, so he wasn't paying for the 'copter.

    (I always wanted to see a 747 come in to Marshalls, but never managed it.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    Talking of October surprises… Does anyone remember Harald Malmgren from the 60s and 70s? He’s been tweeting that he was briefed by CIA bigwig Richard Bissell about “otherworld technologies” when he was working on the nuclear programme / nuclear defence shield.

    Says there’s no point keeping the secret any longer because “the dam has broken / the writing is on the wall”.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    Once it becomes clear that one side in a dispute can sustain strikes more-or-less indefinitely, the other side pretty much has to sue for peace, and the sooner the better.

    In the 1980s, the government had enough prep in place that the miners were mainly hurting themselves.

    Right now, roles are reversed. Rail and NHS strikes hurt the public and the government more than the relevant unions.

    It's not about strength of will- that's just a story that people tell about the old days. It's about a judgement of reality. Which Maggie was actually pretty good at, until she stated believing her own hype.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,449
    ...
    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Not if they risk losing office as a result, Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP if he put boots on the ground in Israel
    Have you thought of a career writing political sitcoms or psychodramas?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755
    Foxy said:

    Interesting that Sweden has brought down its number of asylum seekers drastically while being in Shengen and not shipping people to Rwanda.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/19/sweden-negative-net-immigration-figure-record-low-asylum-application-global-displacement

    Must be fake news - Rwanda is the only protection against an open border as every right-wing zealot knows.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,755

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Not if they risk losing office as a result, Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP if he put boots on the ground in Israel
    Have you thought of a career writing political sitcoms or psychodramas?
    If so, don't; some degree of plausibility is required.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861
    moonshine said:

    Talking of October surprises… Does anyone remember Harald Malmgren from the 60s and 70s? He’s been tweeting that he was briefed by CIA bigwig Richard Bissell about “otherworld technologies” when he was working on the nuclear programme / nuclear defence shield.

    Says there’s no point keeping the secret any longer because “the dam has broken / the writing is on the wall”.

    Are you sure it isn't @Leon ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,449
    edited August 20

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755

    moonshine said:

    Talking of October surprises… Does anyone remember Harald Malmgren from the 60s and 70s? He’s been tweeting that he was briefed by CIA bigwig Richard Bissell about “otherworld technologies” when he was working on the nuclear programme / nuclear defence shield.

    Says there’s no point keeping the secret any longer because “the dam has broken / the writing is on the wall”.

    Are you sure it isn't @Leon ?
    I gather he was a fairly respected senior advisor from JFK through to Ford, rather than a novel writer.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Foxy said:

    Interesting that Sweden has brought down its number of asylum seekers drastically while being in Shengen and not shipping people to Rwanda.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/19/sweden-negative-net-immigration-figure-record-low-asylum-application-global-displacement

    Must be fake news - Rwanda is the only protection against an open border as every right-wing zealot knows.
    What the article actually says is that Sweden's far right have engineered the reduction by making Sweden so unpleasant for asylum seekers that it might as well be Rwanda, and they are going elsewhere. In other words an unqualified success for the Southport approach.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    Talking of October surprises… Does anyone remember Harald Malmgren from the 60s and 70s? He’s been tweeting that he was briefed by CIA bigwig Richard Bissell about “otherworld technologies” when he was working on the nuclear programme / nuclear defence shield.

    Says there’s no point keeping the secret any longer because “the dam has broken / the writing is on the wall”.

    Are you sure it isn't @Leon ?
    I gather he was a fairly respected senior advisor from JFK through to Ford, rather than a novel writer.
    Nah, he knaps dildos out of flint.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    Is it giving them the horn?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,545

    I must be in a small minority who think William Hague's campaign to "save the pound" at the 2001 election was logical based on the evidence available at the time, that a 2nd Labour term would probably lead us into joining the Euro.

    It failed for the same reasons the Liberal Democrats did with their "Stop Brexit" manifesto in 2019, and because Blair promised a referendum on joining the Euro in any event.

    That doesn't mean strategically it was a bad move: it could easily have yielded 20-30 extra seats on a different day, and the alternative might have been to lose seats and get virtually no votes at all.

    There wasn't a huge amount else for Hague for run on at the time given he was nowhere near a serious challenger for an alternative administration.

    I think Governments lose elections, rather than oppositions winning them. There was really very little Hague could have done - he could have been a little less bald and lent himself to satire a bit less ably, but it would have made a marginal difference.

    Actually what Labour was doing with the economy was really bad, but the outworkings of it were nowhere near apparent, let alone affecting quality of life significantly.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433

    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476


    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/

    Because multi-hour commutes and open plan offices are really, really great for productivity.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    ROFL yes back in the days when people called Starmer and Reeves competent

    We no longer see that now, oh for the olden days.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433
    ydoethur said:


    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/

    Because multi-hour commutes and open plan offices are really, really great for productivity.
    There are a whole CBI full of people who might not agree with you.

    But on the other hand if theyre all going to work at home we can remove London allowances, that might pepe the place up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    ydoethur said:


    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/

    Because multi-hour commutes and open plan offices are really, really great for productivity.
    There are a whole CBI full of people who might not agree with you.

    But on the other hand if theyre all going to work at home we can remove London allowances, that might pepe the place up.
    Getting rid of a lot of managers in London would certainly improve productivity.

    Many of them, coincidentally, senior figures in the CBI.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/

    Because multi-hour commutes and open plan offices are really, really great for productivity.
    There are a whole CBI full of people who might not agree with you.

    But on the other hand if theyre all going to work at home we can remove London allowances, that might pepe the place up.
    Getting rid of a lot of managers in London would certainly improve productivity.

    Many of them, coincidentally, senior figures in the CBI.
    couldnt agree more

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    edited August 20

    "The smart money seems to be moving to Kamala Harris as she rides a wave of Democratic party enthusiasm and her polling shows an edge in key swing states" Smart money doesn't simply follow polling and whatever other people are betting on. You have to have information other people don't by definition to prosper from betting.

    Ummm:

    That's not necessarily true. Anybody who wasn't a complete idiot was able to see that neither Michelle Obama or Hilary Clinton was going to be the Democratic nominee.

    Ka'ching.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007
    edited August 20
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/aug/20/pension-credit-winter-fuel-payments

    Very sensible approach, but I wonder how well it will work after decades of Tory and right wing media brainwashing about how immoral and shameful it is to accept "benefits" even in such a situation. (Which is why it's not a trivial matter that the State Pension is commonly seen as something that one has paid for in national insurance, by the way.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Would the US send significant military support to Israel even in the event of an Iranian attack? I doubt it, it didn't send troops to Israel in the Yom Kippur war nor 1948 wars and hasn't sent troops to Ukraine either despite the Russian invasion. Harris as VP would also block it as Muslim and leftwing Democrat activists would be opposed and Israel can defend itself anyway, certainly just if a conflict with Hezbollah as Iranian proxy.

    Trump might though as his evangelical base would want stronger support for Israel.

    Good start meanwhile for the Democrats in Chicago with strong speeches last night from Biden and Hillary Clinton for Harris

    The US assisted Israel militarily when Iran attacked in April. It would presumably do the same. So, support, but not “significant” support. However, there is always the danger of US casualties, and then what?
    There will be no US boots on the ground, Harris would block it and the Democrat left would not turn out in November if there were
    Events have a habit of forcing PMs and Presidents to do the opposite of what they believed in before they took office
    Not if they risk losing office as a result, Harris would likely resign as Biden's VP if he put boots on the ground in Israel
    Have you thought of a career writing political sitcoms or psychodramas?
    If so, don't; some degree of plausibility is required.
    That didn't stop the writers of The Diplomat.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    I must be in a small minority who think William Hague's campaign to "save the pound" at the 2001 election was logical based on the evidence available at the time, that a 2nd Labour term would probably lead us into joining the Euro.

    It failed for the same reasons the Liberal Democrats did with their "Stop Brexit" manifesto in 2019, and because Blair promised a referendum on joining the Euro in any event.

    That doesn't mean strategically it was a bad move: it could easily have yielded 20-30 extra seats on a different day, and the alternative might have been to lose seats and get virtually no votes at all.

    There wasn't a huge amount else for Hague for run on at the time given he was nowhere near a serious challenger for an alternative administration.

    Of course Hague's save the pound campaign was damn stupid. Gordon Brown had already killed off any prospect of joining the Euro with his five tests, and voters knew that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    Yes. But I'm saying that the *way* they've ended is bad news. Obvs. ;)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,861
    rcs1000 said:

    "The smart money seems to be moving to Kamala Harris as she rides a wave of Democratic party enthusiasm and her polling shows an edge in key swing states" Smart money doesn't simply follow polling and whatever other people are betting on. You have to have information other people don't by definition to prosper from betting.

    Ummm:

    That's not necessarily true. Anybody who wasn't a complete idiot was able to see that neither Michelle Obama or Hilary Clinton was going to be the Democratic nominee.

    Ka'ching.
    I like to think that we on PB are more likely to be smart money bettors under @Archvaldor 's definition - thanks to reading this blog every day!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,258
    mwadams said:

    ydoethur said:

    SKS fans can you pass this on to austerity Reeves.
    Austerity measures don’t work.
    The last round ended up tripling the national debt.
    Any serious legitimate effort to ‘balance the books’ would involve rich people paying more.
    Austerity hits only the poor and has zero positive effect.

    My personal allowance was stolen.
    You would have been able to report that to the police had austerity not cut all those police officers
    I thought you approved of defunding the police?
    No
    I am in favour of defunding the rich though
    Define 'rich'.
    Anyone who uses London City Airport.
    Whereas "very rich" is anyone who takes the helicopter to Marshalls in Cambridge, and picks up the private Dreamliner to wherever from there.
    I think that's just well off, rather than actually rich, no?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    R4 had a good try.
    Justin Webb: the Dems hid Biden away from prime time.
    Sara Smith: Biden sounded angry and ungracious.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,838
    Betting Post

    F1: backed Hamilton each way in the Netherlands at 9.5.

    He was very good there back in 2022 when the Mercedes was a dog and should've won it (had horrendous safety car luck). Both his form and fortune are better now. Bad weather played a part last year but he still rose from 13th to 6th or so.

    And, for those who didn't see earlier yesterday, I've backed Piastri to be winner without Verstappen at 8. Might be a little available. Should be around 3-4 or so.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    ROFL yes back in the days when people called Starmer and Reeves competent

    We no longer see that now, oh for the olden days.
    Come off it. I'm not exactly a SKS fan, but it's far too early to say this government's bad, failed, or the people in it incompetent. They've done things I don't particularly like, and promise to do more; but given the mess they inherited, something had to give.

    Writing them off after only a few weeks is a bit silly IMO.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 657
    ydoethur said:


    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/

    Because multi-hour commutes and open plan offices are really, really great for productivity.
    Why do you think WFH is automatically a bad thing? Where I'm currently working I now have to spend 2 days a week in the office. It's entirely pointless. None of my project team, nor my manager, nor her manager are based in London, where I am. I just have to sit in a noisy open plan office and get distracted from my work.

    Sure it's useful to be there sometimes, there are other people on the fringes of my project it's worth catching up with occasionally, but let me decide on how often that warrants going in. Don't pretend being in the office is, by itself, "productive".

    (Rant over - and to work, 2 minutes late!)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    PJH said:

    ydoethur said:


    Greeting from Hamburg as Starmer drives yet another nail in UK productivity

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/19/keir-starmer-backs-working-from-home-culture-presenteeism/

    Because multi-hour commutes and open plan offices are really, really great for productivity.
    Why do you think WFH is automatically a bad thing? Where I'm currently working I now have to spend 2 days a week in the office. It's entirely pointless. None of my project team, nor my manager, nor her manager are based in London, where I am. I just have to sit in a noisy open plan office and get distracted from my work.

    Sure it's useful to be there sometimes, there are other people on the fringes of my project it's worth catching up with occasionally, but let me decide on how often that warrants going in. Don't pretend being in the office is, by itself, "productive".

    (Rant over - and to work, 2 minutes late!)
    I don't. Did you reply to the wrong comment?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,755
    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    I hadn’t realised @leon had left. What happened?
  • Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    Once it becomes clear that one side in a dispute can sustain strikes more-or-less indefinitely, the other side pretty much has to sue for peace, and the sooner the better.

    In the 1980s, the government had enough prep in place that the miners were mainly hurting themselves.

    Right now, roles are reversed. Rail and NHS strikes hurt the public and the government more than the relevant unions.

    It's not about strength of will- that's just a story that people tell about the old days. It's about a judgement of reality. Which Maggie was actually pretty good at, until she stated believing her own hype.
    Rail workers should be allowed to strike indefinitely, just get in your car and drive yourself to where you need to be.

    Abolishing state involvement in rails, including abolishing subsidies and ensuring rail fares covered train drivers wages would ensure that strikes only worked if passengers were willing to pay more.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007
    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    I hadn’t realised @leon had left. What happened?
    Got into a cat-fight.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,449

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    ROFL yes back in the days when people called Starmer and Reeves competent

    We no longer see that now, oh for the olden days.
    Come off it. I'm not exactly a SKS fan, but it's far too early to say this government's bad, failed, or the people in it incompetent. They've done things I don't particularly like, and promise to do more; but given the mess they inherited, something had to give.

    Writing them off after only a few weeks is a bit silly IMO.
    The Field Marshal didn't need weeks. His critique was in full swing by opening business on 5th July.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,449
    Carnyx said:

    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    One of the minor disappointments associated with Leon leaving the site, is that we won't have the pleasure of watching him trying to spin this.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4836277-democratic-national-convention-biden-harris/
    ...Biden had a difficult task in an emotionally tough moment.
    He understandably wanted to defend his own record while at the same time making the case for Harris — and striking a tone that was not too melancholy nor mawkish.
    He pulled it off in an address that lasted almost 50 minutes.
    He cast his own presidency as a recovery period from the twin traumas of the Capitol Riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the COVID-19 pandemic. He wove Harris into his own preferred narrative of recovery, citing her tie-breaking vote to pass the Inflation Reduction Act as one example. When the crowd broke out into a chant of “Thank you, Joe,” Biden responded, “Thank you Kamala too.”
    There were plenty of attacks on Trump — as a danger to democracy, a candidate who takes a fundamentally pessimistic view of the United States, and a selfish person who killed a bipartisan border deal earlier this year for political gain.
    The timing of the speech was hardly in Biden’s favor. By the time he started speaking, it was 11:30 p.m. on the East Coast. He finished well after midnight...>/i>

    I hadn’t realised @leon had left. What happened?
    Got into a cat-fight.
    I thought the penny dropped that we were all too thick to engage with such genius.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,433

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    ROFL yes back in the days when people called Starmer and Reeves competent

    We no longer see that now, oh for the olden days.
    Come off it. I'm not exactly a SKS fan, but it's far too early to say this government's bad, failed, or the people in it incompetent. They've done things I don't particularly like, and promise to do more; but given the mess they inherited, something had to give.

    Writing them off after only a few weeks is a bit silly IMO.
    It may be they are going down a steep learning curve and will come back. October will be a key month. But one can see a lot of things which are creating problems for the future or heading in the opposite direction of what they sought.
  • Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    ROFL yes back in the days when people called Starmer and Reeves competent

    We no longer see that now, oh for the olden days.
    Come off it. I'm not exactly a SKS fan, but it's far too early to say this government's bad, failed, or the people in it incompetent. They've done things I don't particularly like, and promise to do more; but given the mess they inherited, something had to give.

    Writing them off after only a few weeks is a bit silly IMO.
    When the main grumble seems to be about an absurd non-universal bit of welfare to some of the wealthiest who don't need it being scrapped, then its kind of ridiculous.

    Welfare should either be universal (to avoid the poverty trap) or targeted only those who need it, spaffing money on people who don't need it just because they vote is a pathetic way to waste taxpayers money.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,194
    Isn't Musk's public embracing of Trump a bit, well, stupid? Twitter would be more a effective propaganda tool if he kept on pretending to be in favour of free-speech, while letting his platform flood everyone with pro-Trump bullshit.

    The only logical explanation is that Trump really needs Musk's cash, and Musk really is donating substantial sums. But neither of them does much logic so who knows?
  • I must be in a small minority who think William Hague's campaign to "save the pound" at the 2001 election was logical based on the evidence available at the time, that a 2nd Labour term would probably lead us into joining the Euro.

    It failed for the same reasons the Liberal Democrats did with their "Stop Brexit" manifesto in 2019, and because Blair promised a referendum on joining the Euro in any event.

    That doesn't mean strategically it was a bad move: it could easily have yielded 20-30 extra seats on a different day, and the alternative might have been to lose seats and get virtually no votes at all.

    There wasn't a huge amount else for Hague for run on at the time given he was nowhere near a serious challenger for an alternative administration.

    Of course Hague's save the pound campaign was damn stupid. Gordon Brown had already killed off any prospect of joining the Euro with his five tests, and voters knew that.
    Oh don't be silly. The five tests were so subjective Brown could just say "yes they've been met" and we could have joined the Euro, with catastrophic results when the 2007 recession hit combining that with Brown's overspending.

    It was when Blair promised a referendum, not Brown's tests, that our prospects of joining the Euro faded.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293

    Taz said:

    The govt and RMT are about to open negotiations.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg49v5k771o

    Another capitulation awaits.

    Interesting spin from the Labour lobby fodder MP's yesterday on their taking money from Unions. Taking money from the Unions is okay as it is not Frank Hester. Slightly desperate from the whips office that one.

    Yeah, strikes ending = bad news obvs.

    "Bring back the Tories for more industrial disruption!"
    They're not ending the strikes, though. They're ending *these* strikes. We're already seeing more strikes follow.
    I didn't say ending all strikes. Are *these* strikes that are ending, not strikes?
    It's nice that the PB faithful are reminiscing the unicorn-grazing good times pre-July 5th.
    ROFL yes back in the days when people called Starmer and Reeves competent

    We no longer see that now, oh for the olden days.
    Come off it. I'm not exactly a SKS fan, but it's far too early to say this government's bad, failed, or the people in it incompetent. They've done things I don't particularly like, and promise to do more; but given the mess they inherited, something had to give.

    Writing them off after only a few weeks is a bit silly IMO.
    It also risks making the same mistake that Remainers made after 2016.

    Maybe Starmer's government will turn out to be terrible. Maybe it will turn out to be terrible in ways that those on the right have already predicted. But right now, The People Have Spoken. Rishi asked them Who Governs Britain, and they said "definitely not you, so it will have to be the other bloke." It will be a while before they are prepared to revisit that decision. See this from Ipsos yesterday;

    Although his net rating has fallen to 0 from a rating of +7 immediately after the election, Keir Starmer remains the most popular politician asked about. 38% have a favourable opinion towards the Prime Minister (-2 from Jul ’24), whilst 38% are unfavourable (+5). This compares to a net rating of -10 for Rishi Sunak in his second month as Prime Minister (November 2022), and a net rating of -8 for Boris Johnson in January 2020.
    40% said they were favourable towards the Labour Party (N/C), compared to 37% who were unfavourable (+3). This net rating of +3 compares with -32 for the Conservative Party in November 2022, and -14 for the Conservatives in January 2020.


    https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/moderate-honeymoon-continues-for-labour-and-keir-starmer
This discussion has been closed.