Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
If Goodwin could perhaps demonstrate somewhere else that followed alternative policies, and which was thriving, then I would take his prognostications a lot more seriously.
But here's the thing: there are countries that are thriving and have lots of immigration (Singapore, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Australia); there are also countries with very low levels of immigration that are really struggling (like Japan).
Every country needs to - in the long-run - pay its way. When Goodwin rails against globalization, what would he suggest? The UK is a small country, that is highly dependent on the imports of basic materials (food, fertilizer, energy, metals) to keep the lights on and everybody fed. That means we're dependent on exports to pay for those imports. How is Mr Goodwin planning on rolling back globalization, while somehow managing to export enough to pay for the basic raw material imports the country needs?
It's absurd and ridiculous and hyperbolic, and it makes it seem like complex problems have simple solutions. And he should be better than that.
Goodwin is commenting on the gap between how 'liberal elites' view the world and how 'ordinary people' view the world, a well known problem common to all countries, to a varying degree.
The error he seems to be making in his recent comments is that he seems to suggest the riots have some popular support. In fact the rioting is a small group causing disproportionate amounts of damage and conflict, they aren't popular at all, that is clear from all the polls, even the ones he is quoting.
He is right though that there is some sympathy with the underlying problem (concern about immigration and multiculturalism)., and elites are not very good at dealing with that, which is likely to push people towards more radical positions over time. He is warning about this, as many others have done before, and the problems prevail.
I strongly suspect if many of these areas weren’t run down, declining relics of their former selves and there was a degree of wealth and prosperity, levelling up as was, in them then Migration would not be an issue at all, or would be a far lesser issue.
Labour leadership are reluctant to discuss the causes of the riots for fear of legitimising them, which is okay, but they do need to try to address the causes anyway.
Octopus have emailed me offering to upgrade my first generation smart meter. Worth doing?
I'd like to move to Octopus but they can't find my address on their system. The bungalow has only been here for about 70 years ...... which admittedly is new for this town.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
Plenty of people want the Orwellian. The accidental crushing of a percentage of people under the State's wheels is perfectly acceptable to quite a few at the Home Office. Or in the police.
See people dragged through the courts over cloned number plates. The attitude seems to be "We have evidence that *could* connect you to a crime. Therefore we will go after you as if we have proved it beyond all doubt."
There are, most certainly, risks to the populace in the Authorities having information and power, and the benefits must exceed those risks for it to be justified. No argument there.
Pre-Cog tech is no different in this respect. It will need rigorous due diligence before being implemented. I think we'd all agree with that.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
If Goodwin could perhaps demonstrate somewhere else that followed alternative policies, and which was thriving, then I would take his prognostications a lot more seriously.
But here's the thing: there are countries that are thriving and have lots of immigration (Singapore, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Australia); there are also countries with very low levels of immigration that are really struggling (like Japan).
Every country needs to - in the long-run - pay its way. When Goodwin rails against globalization, what would he suggest? The UK is a small country, that is highly dependent on the imports of basic materials (food, fertilizer, energy, metals) to keep the lights on and everybody fed. That means we're dependent on exports to pay for those imports. How is Mr Goodwin planning on rolling back globalization, while somehow managing to export enough to pay for the basic raw material imports the country needs?
It's absurd and ridiculous and hyperbolic, and it makes it seem like complex problems have simple solutions. And he should be better than that.
Goodwin is commenting on the gap between how 'liberal elites' view the world and how 'ordinary people' view the world, a well known problem common to all countries, to a varying degree.
The error he seems to be making in his recent comments is that he seems to suggest the riots have some popular support. In fact the rioting is a small group causing disproportionate amounts of damage and conflict, they aren't popular at all, that is clear from all the polls, even the ones he is quoting.
He is right though that there is some sympathy with the underlying problem (concern about immigration and multiculturalism)., and elites are not very good at dealing with that, which is likely to push people towards more radical positions over time. He is warning about this, as many others have done before, and the problems prevail.
I agree with some of what you say, but Goodwin is part of the liberal elite. His claim to speak for the ordinary people is as credible as, say, Keir Starmer's. At some point, he confused his views with what his data might have told him.
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes.
And No.
They should get a medal. But they also destroyed German property. So, they will have committed a criminal offence, no matter how positive their actions were.
Does the pipeline belong to germany I believe Gazprom paid more than 50% of it so its a russian asset
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
If Goodwin could perhaps demonstrate somewhere else that followed alternative policies, and which was thriving, then I would take his prognostications a lot more seriously.
But here's the thing: there are countries that are thriving and have lots of immigration (Singapore, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Australia); there are also countries with very low levels of immigration that are really struggling (like Japan).
Every country needs to - in the long-run - pay its way. When Goodwin rails against globalization, what would he suggest? The UK is a small country, that is highly dependent on the imports of basic materials (food, fertilizer, energy, metals) to keep the lights on and everybody fed. That means we're dependent on exports to pay for those imports. How is Mr Goodwin planning on rolling back globalization, while somehow managing to export enough to pay for the basic raw material imports the country needs?
It's absurd and ridiculous and hyperbolic, and it makes it seem like complex problems have simple solutions. And he should be better than that.
Goodwin is commenting on the gap between how 'liberal elites' view the world and how 'ordinary people' view the world, a well known problem common to all countries, to a varying degree.
The error he seems to be making in his recent comments is that he seems to suggest the riots have some popular support. In fact the rioting is a small group causing disproportionate amounts of damage and conflict, they aren't popular at all, that is clear from all the polls, even the ones he is quoting.
He is right though that there is some sympathy with the underlying problem (concern about immigration and multiculturalism)., and elites are not very good at dealing with that, which is likely to push people towards more radical positions over time. He is warning about this, as many others have done before, and the problems prevail.
I strongly suspect if many of these areas weren’t run down, declining relics of their former selves and there was a degree of wealth and prosperity, levelling up as was, in them then Migration would not be an issue at all, or would be a far lesser issue.
Labour leadership are reluctant to discuss the causes of the riots for fear of legitimising them, which is okay, but they do need to try to address the causes anyway.
But are the causes run down areas, or are the causes Russian disinformation, and far right agitators like Tommy Robinson?
Octopus have emailed me offering to upgrade my first generation smart meter. Worth doing?
I'd like to move to Octopus but they can't find my address on their system. The bungalow has only been here for about 70 years ...... which admittedly is new for this town.
I was just moved to them last year after being a First Utility and then Shell Energy customer.
So far quite happy with them though. They seem quite fair with their pricing and recently recommended I reduce my monthly payment by £10.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
No community has been "decimated" by globalisation, immigration and deindustrialisation.
Nor did Boris promise to lower immigration.
There are places, lots of them, that have lost their original purpose. Faded seaside resorts, military bases, towns based on one industry that we don't need so much any more, market towns where the market has moved online or elsewhere. The place I grew up is struggling with the first two, and the place I live now has aspects of the last one.
And transitioning to something else is painful. Especially for older dogs who don't particularly want to learn new tricks. That's your core RefUK demographic, both geographically and socially.
So yes, there's a real problem, probably made worse by austerity reducing the money that can cushion the blow. But where Goodwin is utterly wrong is seeing an elite conspiracy.
Take seaside resorts. They're not struggling because of schemes in sinister offices. Their problem is that abroad is nicer for holidays; more interesting, better weather, better value. If people can go to Corfu easily, why the hell would they want to go to Clacton? And that's globalisation in a nutshell.
I would take Goodwin seriously on this if he dropped the "Elite conspiracy" stuff. He does have a point about the left behind communities and globalisation has had an impact on communities as old manufacturing jobs have moved to lower cost economies. The problem is not so much globalisation such as the moving of high labour intensive jobs overseas, the problem is what replaced it was very often minimum wage jobs in call centres and warehouses rather than higher skilled, better paying jobs.
The problem for him is that all of that started way back in the 80s (which was when he was born, incidentally) and it’s just not possible to wind back that much history quickly, if it’s possible at all. And obsessing over immigration isn’t how you start doing it.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
No community has been "decimated" by globalisation, immigration and deindustrialisation.
Nor did Boris promise to lower immigration.
Indeed, Johnson explained that when the Eastern Europeans returned home after Brexit we could fill vacancies with "our friends from the Indian Subcontinent". Johnson, for once, told the truth.
There has to be a name for a true statement that everyone ignores because the person saying it is such a well-known and fluent liar.
Immigration policy was one of the dividing lines between Johnson and Hunt in the leadership election. Hunt said it would be a betrayal if they didn’t cut immigration and Johnson just talked about control but wouldn’t commit to reducing it. Hunt was right.
If Johnson was still PM how do you think he would be handling the complaints about high levels of net migration?
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes.
And No.
They should get a medal. But they also destroyed German property. So, they will have committed a criminal offence, no matter how positive their actions were.
Does the pipeline belong to germany I believe Gazprom paid more than 50% of it so its a russian asset
The pipeline is owned by a German company, called Nord Stream AG. This in turn is owned by five companies (Gazprom 51%, Wintedshall 15.5%, E.ON 15.5%, Gasunie 9%, Engie 9%).
From a legal perspective, it is German (because it owned by a German company), but you can make a case that it is 51% Russian if you like.
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
There's Westminster polling from BMG taken between the 5th and 7th of August:
Lab 33% Con 24% Ref 18% LD 12% Grn 8% SNP 2%
Isn't that more or less the GE with a slight uptick for Ref. ?
Methodology for the Labour figure has been been furiously back pedaled by the looks of it.
Do we know of any methodology changes? It could be explained by false recall being less of an effect, for example.
After an election the pollsters recalibrate their weights. The numbers the polls produce are changed by the pollsters using "weights": multipliers designed to fix their unbalanced responses to match the population and to change the output by turnout. Weights are intelligent guesses based on the past but they are guesses and are usually wrong. Sometimes they are wrong by a lot, sometimes by a little, but either way they need fixing. Elections provide a good test of the weights so when elections happen the weights are recalibrated.
So they should be getting more accurate? Or do the 'weights' vary randomly each time?
If people's behavior was constant over time than yes, they would get more accurate over time. And in certain periods it is - I think 83-87 was one such, and 97-01 (97-05?) was another. Let's call them "zones of certainty". But life is a bit more unstable these days...
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes the AfD are fairly pro-Putin. Try to keep up.
I know they're pro-Putin and shame on them for that.
The electorate should not be and should be punishing them for their pro-Putinism, not letting them "have a field day".
Nor should the prosecution service be pandering to them by issuing arrest warrants for Ukrainians defending their country by destroying the invaders infrastructure.
Well done to the attackers.
Shame on Germany.
Germany has been trying to pretend they have no idea who did the attack for quite some time, but it's not sustainable. The government could have put an end to the investigation and tried to suppress the truth I guess, but probably would have only fuelled conspiracy theories.
Blowing up a pipeline that wasn't being used was a fucking stupid thing to do. The attackers were morons.
You've been an apologist for Germany and pro-Russian antics since the war began so I'm not surprised at you being on the wrong side of history here today either.
I'll give you 50 quid if you can find a single example of me being an apologist for pro-Russian antics. In return if you can't find one you promise to stop telling lies about me you lying piece of shit. Deal?
The fact is blowing up Nord Stream was against Ukrainian interests. But your number one priority is saying shame on Germany whenever you can. Did a German once piss on your cornflakes or something?
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
I'd argue its Twitter, not Brexit, that has driven him mad.
He's not the only one to be driven mad by that swamp.
Octopus have emailed me offering to upgrade my first generation smart meter. Worth doing?
I'd like to move to Octopus but they can't find my address on their system. The bungalow has only been here for about 70 years ...... which admittedly is new for this town.
I was just moved to them last year after being a First Utility and then Shell Energy customer.
So far quite happy with them though. They seem quite fair with their pricing and recently recommended I reduce my monthly payment by £10.
Quite. I hear good reports of them, but at the moment I seem stuck. So I signed up for another year with Eon.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
If Goodwin could perhaps demonstrate somewhere else that followed alternative policies, and which was thriving, then I would take his prognostications a lot more seriously.
But here's the thing: there are countries that are thriving and have lots of immigration (Singapore, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Australia); there are also countries with very low levels of immigration that are really struggling (like Japan).
Every country needs to - in the long-run - pay its way. When Goodwin rails against globalization, what would he suggest? The UK is a small country, that is highly dependent on the imports of basic materials (food, fertilizer, energy, metals) to keep the lights on and everybody fed. That means we're dependent on exports to pay for those imports. How is Mr Goodwin planning on rolling back globalization, while somehow managing to export enough to pay for the basic raw material imports the country needs?
It's absurd and ridiculous and hyperbolic, and it makes it seem like complex problems have simple solutions. And he should be better than that.
Goodwin is commenting on the gap between how 'liberal elites' view the world and how 'ordinary people' view the world, a well known problem common to all countries, to a varying degree.
The error he seems to be making in his recent comments is that he seems to suggest the riots have some popular support. In fact the rioting is a small group causing disproportionate amounts of damage and conflict, they aren't popular at all, that is clear from all the polls, even the ones he is quoting.
He is right though that there is some sympathy with the underlying problem (concern about immigration and multiculturalism)., and elites are not very good at dealing with that, which is likely to push people towards more radical positions over time. He is warning about this, as many others have done before, and the problems prevail.
Sure: but he mixes globalization (trade) in with immigration, when the two are very different. And - when you are a medium sized country with few natural resources - then there is no "you know what, let's not bother with this whole trade malarky" option.
Where there does need to be discussions is about the impact of globalization on communities, and how the government can best support people and improve outcomes. But Goodwin seems remarkably uninterested the moment any topic gets away from a simplistic "blame the elites" narrative.
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
I'd argue its Twitter, not Brexit, that has driven him mad.
He's not the only one to be driven mad by that swamp.
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
No, his problem is that he uses some shocking polling questions and general logic defying assumptions.
He really isn’t an evidence based person any more.
He also lies/deletes his predictions/stuff to make himself look good.
Octopus have emailed me offering to upgrade my first generation smart meter. Worth doing?
I'd like to move to Octopus but they can't find my address on their system. The bungalow has only been here for about 70 years ...... which admittedly is new for this town.
I was just moved to them last year after being a First Utility and then Shell Energy customer.
So far quite happy with them though. They seem quite fair with their pricing and recently recommended I reduce my monthly payment by £10.
Quite. I hear good reports of them, but at the moment I seem stuck. So I signed up for another year with Eon.
Eon can be terrible. Hope you manage to change soon. 👍
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
Because @kinabalu finds it an attractive proposition he'd like, rather than a dystopian nightmare to avoid.
I find the idea of marrying Taylor Swift an attractive proposition, but it's not going to happen!
If one wants to engage with kinabalu's position, surely the only sensible approach is in terms of literary criticism. kinabalu, you concur that Dick, and the film adapters, were putting forth what they intended to be a dystopia. So, how does your perception of the vision as "benign" interact with the narrative's intention?
I think the easy answer is that one person's utopia is another persons dystopia
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
I'd argue its Twitter, not Brexit, that has driven him mad.
He's not the only one to be driven mad by that swamp.
JK Rowling and Elon Musk wave Hello!
Do we need a Chinese firewall with a British-only walled garden?
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
Because @kinabalu finds it an attractive proposition he'd like, rather than a dystopian nightmare to avoid.
I find the idea of marrying Taylor Swift an attractive proposition, but it's not going to happen!
If one wants to engage with kinabalu's position, surely the only sensible approach is in terms of literary criticism. kinabalu, you concur that Dick, and the film adapters, were putting forth what they intended to be a dystopia. So, how does your perception of the vision as "benign" interact with the narrative's intention?
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
In any event, we evidently can’t even deal with post crime.
Posted upthread… https://x.com/DrRebeccaTidy/status/1823618910102388771 These 2 Plymouth rioters have been convicted of 209 previous offences + they told the police they were rioting because immigrants cost the taxpayer too much money.
Judge Linford made them work out how much their offending had cost Britain's taxpayers over the last 38 years.
Theft; arson; taking cars; handling stolen goods; burglary; criminal damage; drug dealing; robbery; etc.
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
No, his problem is that he uses some shocking polling questions and general logic defying assumptions.
He really isn’t an evidence based person any more.
He also lies/deletes his predictions/stuff to make himself look good.
You can't be a thought guru if your historic posts reveal you to be the idiot you really are...
Case in point Goodwin said he was one of the few people who predicted Leave would win and a Trump win in 2016.
Except in front of audience of academics on referendum day he predicted a 2% Remain victory and also said a few months later that Trump would fail to win.
In 2020/21 he deleted all his tweets saying Trump would win.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
Because @kinabalu finds it an attractive proposition he'd like, rather than a dystopian nightmare to avoid.
I find the idea of marrying Taylor Swift an attractive proposition, but it's not going to happen!
If one wants to engage with kinabalu's position, surely the only sensible approach is in terms of literary criticism. kinabalu, you concur that Dick, and the film adapters, were putting forth what they intended to be a dystopia. So, how does your perception of the vision as "benign" interact with the narrative's intention?
Really? I hear she's a pretty terrible cook.
(JOKE. IT WAS A JOKE.)
I heard she was like amber heard between the sheets
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes the AfD are fairly pro-Putin. Try to keep up.
I know they're pro-Putin and shame on them for that.
The electorate should not be and should be punishing them for their pro-Putinism, not letting them "have a field day".
Nor should the prosecution service be pandering to them by issuing arrest warrants for Ukrainians defending their country by destroying the invaders infrastructure.
Well done to the attackers.
Shame on Germany.
Germany has been trying to pretend they have no idea who did the attack for quite some time, but it's not sustainable. The government could have put an end to the investigation and tried to suppress the truth I guess, but probably would have only fuelled conspiracy theories.
Blowing up a pipeline that wasn't being used was a fucking stupid thing to do. The attackers were morons.
You've been an apologist for Germany and pro-Russian antics since the war began so I'm not surprised at you being on the wrong side of history here today either.
I'll give you 50 quid if you can find a single example of me being an apologist for pro-Russian antics. In return if you can't find one you promise to stop telling lies about me you lying piece of shit. Deal?
The fact is blowing up Nord Stream was against Ukrainian interests. But your number one priority is saying shame on Germany whenever you can. Did a German once piss on your cornflakes or something?
You're being an apologist for pro-Russian antics today, siding with the AfD while you do so.
How do you want to send me that £50?
Blowing up Nord Stream was absolutely in Ukraine's interests. Closing the door on the possibility that Ukraine would be sold out rapidly (as many wanted) in order to get Nord Stream flowing again was absolutely a material victory in the war.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
If Goodwin could perhaps demonstrate somewhere else that followed alternative policies, and which was thriving, then I would take his prognostications a lot more seriously.
But here's the thing: there are countries that are thriving and have lots of immigration (Singapore, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Australia); there are also countries with very low levels of immigration that are really struggling (like Japan).
Every country needs to - in the long-run - pay its way. When Goodwin rails against globalization, what would he suggest? The UK is a small country, that is highly dependent on the imports of basic materials (food, fertilizer, energy, metals) to keep the lights on and everybody fed. That means we're dependent on exports to pay for those imports. How is Mr Goodwin planning on rolling back globalization, while somehow managing to export enough to pay for the basic raw material imports the country needs?
It's absurd and ridiculous and hyperbolic, and it makes it seem like complex problems have simple solutions. And he should be better than that.
Goodwin is commenting on the gap between how 'liberal elites' view the world and how 'ordinary people' view the world, a well known problem common to all countries, to a varying degree.
The error he seems to be making in his recent comments is that he seems to suggest the riots have some popular support. In fact the rioting is a small group causing disproportionate amounts of damage and conflict, they aren't popular at all, that is clear from all the polls, even the ones he is quoting.
He is right though that there is some sympathy with the underlying problem (concern about immigration and multiculturalism)., and elites are not very good at dealing with that, which is likely to push people towards more radical positions over time. He is warning about this, as many others have done before, and the problems prevail.
I strongly suspect if many of these areas weren’t run down, declining relics of their former selves and there was a degree of wealth and prosperity, levelling up as was, in them then Migration would not be an issue at all, or would be a far lesser issue.
Labour leadership are reluctant to discuss the causes of the riots for fear of legitimising them, which is okay, but they do need to try to address the causes anyway.
They rightly castigated their predecessors for failing miserably with “levelling up”. They need to show that they can do better.
As you say, prosperity would make much of the current obsessions disappear.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
Because @kinabalu finds it an attractive proposition he'd like, rather than a dystopian nightmare to avoid.
I find the idea of marrying Taylor Swift an attractive proposition, but it's not going to happen!
If one wants to engage with kinabalu's position, surely the only sensible approach is in terms of literary criticism. kinabalu, you concur that Dick, and the film adapters, were putting forth what they intended to be a dystopia. So, how does your perception of the vision as "benign" interact with the narrative's intention?
Really? I hear she's a pretty terrible cook.
(JOKE. IT WAS A JOKE.)
I think we'd get on well as she really likes cats, and I really like cats. Does anyone else here like cats? Silly question. I'm sure everyone here thinks pets are a good thing and not, say, massively damaging to the environment or anything. I mean, the only recent US President with no pets in the White House was Donald Trump and who would want to be like Trump, a fascism-curious narcissist?
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
Octopus have emailed me offering to upgrade my first generation smart meter. Worth doing?
I'd like to move to Octopus but they can't find my address on their system. The bungalow has only been here for about 70 years ...... which admittedly is new for this town.
I was just moved to them last year after being a First Utility and then Shell Energy customer.
So far quite happy with them though. They seem quite fair with their pricing and recently recommended I reduce my monthly payment by £10.
Quite. I hear good reports of them, but at the moment I seem stuck. So I signed up for another year with Eon.
Eon can be terrible. Hope you manage to change soon. 👍
Service-wise they've always been OK as far as I'm concerned. It's their prices.....
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
Octopus have emailed me offering to upgrade my first generation smart meter. Worth doing?
I'd like to move to Octopus but they can't find my address on their system. The bungalow has only been here for about 70 years ...... which admittedly is new for this town.
Give them your MPAN/MPRN from your existing bills, it sounds like your address is different on the gas/electricity national databases to how it is on the Royal Mail PAF.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
Because @kinabalu finds it an attractive proposition he'd like, rather than a dystopian nightmare to avoid.
No, I agree it fails the cost/benefit test in the film. Nobody's arguing for that implementation model.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
He is simply a Reform shill. He demonstrates no academic analysis, and the crucial key to academic rigour is balancing source material to prove one's theory. Just blaming an "elite" into which he would dovetail nicely is a nonsense.
I am not particularly pro Goodwin, but this is unfair. His academic stuff is his published academic work. Feel free to review it critically. He is also a polemicist and politically engaged, as are many academics, mostly on the left. Nearly all politicking is polemic, distorted, one sided, limited. Gosh. Who knew?
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes the AfD are fairly pro-Putin. Try to keep up.
I know they're pro-Putin and shame on them for that.
The electorate should not be and should be punishing them for their pro-Putinism, not letting them "have a field day".
Nor should the prosecution service be pandering to them by issuing arrest warrants for Ukrainians defending their country by destroying the invaders infrastructure.
Well done to the attackers.
Shame on Germany.
Germany has been trying to pretend they have no idea who did the attack for quite some time, but it's not sustainable. The government could have put an end to the investigation and tried to suppress the truth I guess, but probably would have only fuelled conspiracy theories.
Blowing up a pipeline that wasn't being used was a fucking stupid thing to do. The attackers were morons.
You've been an apologist for Germany and pro-Russian antics since the war began so I'm not surprised at you being on the wrong side of history here today either.
I'll give you 50 quid if you can find a single example of me being an apologist for pro-Russian antics. In return if you can't find one you promise to stop telling lies about me you lying piece of shit. Deal?
The fact is blowing up Nord Stream was against Ukrainian interests. But your number one priority is saying shame on Germany whenever you can. Did a German once piss on your cornflakes or something?
You're being an apologist for pro-Russian antics today, siding with the AfD while you do so.
How do you want to send me that £50?
Blowing up Nord Stream was absolutely in Ukraine's interests. Closing the door on the possibility that Ukraine would be sold out rapidly (as many wanted) in order to get Nord Stream flowing again was absolutely a material victory in the war.
You're a fucking moron if you think I side with the AfD. So you can't find a single example you really are the most tedious narrow-minded ignorant fanatic dogmatic poster on here.
Please can someone ban this obnoxious liar and bring back Leon? He at least has left his basement and has some tenuous connection with reality.
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London. It is quicker to fly to Spain or Portugal. The town might get a few day trippers on the train but why go there if you can get to Southend more easily or head to the south coast? You are just not going to get families there for extended holidays. It needs a total reinvention if it is to bounce back. I am not sure being Reform Central is going to help on that front - especially as Farage gives every impression of being entirely uninterested in promoting the place.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
The police have infiltrated law-abiding groups for decades, hence spycops. Checking a reg on ANPR records for tax, MOT and insurance is nowhere near the same scale of intrusive surveillance as that, and unlike the spycops it's likely to be effective in reducing crime and ksi.
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
No community has been "decimated" by globalisation, immigration and deindustrialisation.
Nor did Boris promise to lower immigration.
Indeed, Johnson explained that when the Eastern Europeans returned home after Brexit we could fill vacancies with "our friends from the Indian Subcontinent". Johnson, for once, told the truth.
There has to be a name for a true statement that everyone ignores because the person saying it is such a well-known and fluent liar.
Immigration policy was one of the dividing lines between Johnson and Hunt in the leadership election. Hunt said it would be a betrayal if they didn’t cut immigration and Johnson just talked about control but wouldn’t commit to reducing it. Hunt was right.
If Johnson was still PM how do you think he would be handling the complaints about high levels of net migration?
Matt Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · 1h "It wasn’t Farage who decimated the communities that saw the worst rioting by ushering in globalisation, mass immigration, & deindustrialisation; it was the elite class. It wasn’t Farage who promised they'd lower immigration only to do the opposite; it was the elite class"
He is simply a Reform shill. He demonstrates no academic analysis, and the crucial key to academic rigour is balancing source material to prove one's theory. Just blaming an "elite" into which he would dovetail nicely is a nonsense.
I am not particularly pro Goodwin, but this is unfair. His academic stuff is his published academic work. Feel free to review it critically. He is also a polemicist and politically engaged, as are many academics, mostly on the left. Nearly all politicking is polemic, distorted, one sided, limited. Gosh. Who knew?
Quite.
You have shills, I have supporters.
Goodwin is essentially right about the causes. Whether he offers the right solutions is an entirely different matter...
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London. It is quicker to fly to Spain or Portugal. The town might get a few day trippers on the train but why go there if you can get to Southend more easily or head to the south coast? You are just not going to get families there for extended holidays. It needs a total reinvention if it is to bounce back. I am not sure being Reform Central is going to help on that front - especially as Farage gives every impression of being entirely uninterested in promoting the place.
Three hours from London!? It takes me two and a half from south of Oxford to Colchester and it’s ftwenty minutes from there to Clacton
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
Because @kinabalu finds it an attractive proposition he'd like, rather than a dystopian nightmare to avoid.
I find the idea of marrying Taylor Swift an attractive proposition, but it's not going to happen!
If one wants to engage with kinabalu's position, surely the only sensible approach is in terms of literary criticism. kinabalu, you concur that Dick, and the film adapters, were putting forth what they intended to be a dystopia. So, how does your perception of the vision as "benign" interact with the narrative's intention?
Really? I hear she's a pretty terrible cook.
(JOKE. IT WAS A JOKE.)
I heard she was like amber heard between the sheets
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying I was impressed by the specifics of the Pre-Cog regime in the film. I wasn't. It was - clearly - a warning not an instruction manual.
But the concept, of preventing crime that way, is one I found appealing. That's what I'm saying. The concept.
There's a genuine difference here between me and people (eg viewcode and maybe you?) who find it philosophically revolting that anybody could be arrested and charged for something they were about to do but hadn't yet done.
I don't have a fundamental problem with that. For me it's mainly about the practicalities. How will the tech work? Who will maintain it? What are the checks and balances?
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes the AfD are fairly pro-Putin. Try to keep up.
I know they're pro-Putin and shame on them for that.
The electorate should not be and should be punishing them for their pro-Putinism, not letting them "have a field day".
Nor should the prosecution service be pandering to them by issuing arrest warrants for Ukrainians defending their country by destroying the invaders infrastructure.
Well done to the attackers.
Shame on Germany.
Germany has been trying to pretend they have no idea who did the attack for quite some time, but it's not sustainable. The government could have put an end to the investigation and tried to suppress the truth I guess, but probably would have only fuelled conspiracy theories.
Blowing up a pipeline that wasn't being used was a fucking stupid thing to do. The attackers were morons.
You've been an apologist for Germany and pro-Russian antics since the war began so I'm not surprised at you being on the wrong side of history here today either.
I'll give you 50 quid if you can find a single example of me being an apologist for pro-Russian antics. In return if you can't find one you promise to stop telling lies about me you lying piece of shit. Deal?
The fact is blowing up Nord Stream was against Ukrainian interests. But your number one priority is saying shame on Germany whenever you can. Did a German once piss on your cornflakes or something?
You're being an apologist for pro-Russian antics today, siding with the AfD while you do so.
How do you want to send me that £50?
Blowing up Nord Stream was absolutely in Ukraine's interests. Closing the door on the possibility that Ukraine would be sold out rapidly (as many wanted) in order to get Nord Stream flowing again was absolutely a material victory in the war.
You're a fucking moron if you think I side with the AfD. So you can't find a single example you really are the most tedious narrow-minded ignorant fanatic dogmatic poster on here.
Please can someone ban this obnoxious liar and bring back Leon? He at least has left his basement and has some tenuous connection with reality.
No lies, but I don't know of any way to do an advanced search on the forum posts (if anyone knows of a way of doing so I'd be interested) but its not the first time we've had this conversation.
Germany were very obstructionist to weapons being sent to Ukraine earlier in the war and you were at the time an apologist for that.
They've done much better since - and kudos to them for that and I've applauded them for that. I'm not anti-Germany, I'm pro-Ukraine.
But the idea that blowing up Nord Stream was bad for Ukraine? Utterly insane and preposterous, it was great for Ukraine to close the door on the notion of getting Nord Stream flowing again - which is what the AfD and your other fellow travellers wanted.
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London. It is quicker to fly to Spain or Portugal. The town might get a few day trippers on the train but why go there if you can get to Southend more easily or head to the south coast? You are just not going to get families there for extended holidays. It needs a total reinvention if it is to bounce back. I am not sure being Reform Central is going to help on that front - especially as Farage gives every impression of being entirely uninterested in promoting the place.
Three hours from London!? It takes me two and a half from south of Oxford to Colchester and it’s ftwenty minutes from there to Clacton
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying I was impressed by the specifics of the Pre-Cog regime in the film. I wasn't. It was - clearly - a warning not an instruction manual.
But the concept, of preventing crime that way, is one I found appealing. That's what I'm saying. The concept.
There's a genuine difference here between me and people (eg viewcode and maybe you?) who find it philosophically revolting that anybody could be arrested and charged for something they were about to do but hadn't yet done.
I don't have a fundamental problem with that. For me it's mainly about the practicalities. How will the tech work? Who will maintain it? What are the checks and balances?
Ok let me ask you a question and its a serious one
The government precog facility says you are going to commit murder but the only evidence is the precogs?
How do you tell the difference between The precogs are correct. A malicious government wants you out the way and manufactured the report.
It is almost impossible to prove a negative when all you can say is I would never have done it and there is no proof you would or wouldn't have. This is a world you would like?
Case in point Goodwin said he was one of the few people who predicted Leave would win and a Trump win in 2016.
Except in front of audience of academics on referendum day he predicted a 2% Remain victory and also said a few months later that Trump would fail to win.
In 2020/21 he deleted all his tweets saying Trump would win.
How many other British academics were prepared to publicly call out the ludicrous double standards when it comes to Jew hate in this country? Our institutions showed more solidarity with a single black man killed by a police officer in the United States than with Jews after the appalling October 7 pogrom.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
You seem unable to conceive of the state acting malevolently.
Despite the recent example of the Post Office, the Met and many more.
At the very least, they will take the attitude of "Computer says guilty". They have always done so, previously. And show no signs of learning.
Since no technology can be 100% accurate this will mean that they will be quite willing to punish innocent people for crimes they didn't commit.
Of course I know the state can be malevolent! That's a bit of a silly comment. That's like me saying you seem unable to conceive of the state *not* acting malevolently.
My 'complacency' vs your 'paranoia' - both bum raps.
Case in point Goodwin said he was one of the few people who predicted Leave would win and a Trump win in 2016.
Except in front of audience of academics on referendum day he predicted a 2% Remain victory and also said a few months later that Trump would fail to win.
In 2020/21 he deleted all his tweets saying Trump would win.
How many other British academics were prepared to publicly call out the ludicrous double standards when it comes to Jew hate in this country? Our institutions showed more solidarity with a single black man killed by a police officer in the United States than with Jews after the appalling October 7 pogrom.
Plenty did.
You always seem to pivot everything to the Jews, there are other things to judge things people on.
You appear tbe against antisemitism but seem to excuse racism and Islamophobia.
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London. It is quicker to fly to Spain or Portugal. The town might get a few day trippers on the train but why go there if you can get to Southend more easily or head to the south coast? You are just not going to get families there for extended holidays. It needs a total reinvention if it is to bounce back. I am not sure being Reform Central is going to help on that front - especially as Farage gives every impression of being entirely uninterested in promoting the place.
Three hours from London!? It takes me two and a half from south of Oxford to Colchester and it’s ftwenty minutes from there to Clacton
It's getting out of Central London that's the slow bit. Assuming there are no roadworks/holdups (which there are ATM) on the A12, then that's pretty good after the M25 junction. The train's not as good now because basically it's been turned into a branch line beyond Colchester; Greater Anglia's really interested in the Norwich to London line, not the 'sidearms'. AFAICS, anyway.
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London. It is quicker to fly to Spain or Portugal. The town might get a few day trippers on the train but why go there if you can get to Southend more easily or head to the south coast? You are just not going to get families there for extended holidays. It needs a total reinvention if it is to bounce back. I am not sure being Reform Central is going to help on that front - especially as Farage gives every impression of being entirely uninterested in promoting the place.
Three hours from London!? It takes me two and a half from south of Oxford to Colchester and it’s ftwenty minutes from there to Clacton
You're not getting out of London!
Playing with Google Maps its saying its about 90 minutes from Barking or Enfield, less from Dagenham or Romford. Those all count as London don't they?
No motorway there though which certainly makes the journey time much longer than it could be. Looking at the map, I wouldn't put a motorway to Clacton but you could certainly make a case for one that connects Ipswich, Colchester and Chemsford to the M25, and you could then come off that motorway just after Chelmsford to connect to Clacton if it existed.
Advantage of new roads of course being you could create new towns along that route as well as building trade and connections between the towns mentioned.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
You seem unable to conceive of the state acting malevolently.
Despite the recent example of the Post Office, the Met and many more.
At the very least, they will take the attitude of "Computer says guilty". They have always done so, previously. And show no signs of learning.
Since no technology can be 100% accurate this will mean that they will be quite willing to punish innocent people for crimes they didn't commit.
Of course I know the state can be malevolent! That's a bit of a silly comment. That's like me saying you seem unable to conceive of the state *not* acting malevolently.
My 'complacency' vs your 'paranoia' - both bum raps.
C'mon. Let's not tilt at windmills.
I don't think the state is always malevolent, however all history tells us if we put something like this in place and somepoint someone is going to misuse it for their own ends, maybe the government, maybe a normal guy in the office for passing the reports on for action......power corrupts
Based on full slate Wisconsin H48% T43% Pennsylvania H48% T43% Nevada H42% T47% North Carolina H46% T44% Michigan H46% T44% Georgia T46% T46% Arizona H46% T42%
So Trump only ahead in Nevada
Must be an outlier! (The Nevada poll, I mean obvs.)
Nevada is perenially the Democrats' Lucy to Charlie Brown's Republicans. The Republican's think Nevada is theirs - and then the ball gets pulled away at the last moment.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying I was impressed by the specifics of the Pre-Cog regime in the film. I wasn't. It was - clearly - a warning not an instruction manual.
But the concept, of preventing crime that way, is one I found appealing. That's what I'm saying. The concept.
There's a genuine difference here between me and people (eg viewcode and maybe you?) who find it philosophically revolting that anybody could be arrested and charged for something they were about to do but hadn't yet done.
I don't have a fundamental problem with that. For me it's mainly about the practicalities. How will the tech work? Who will maintain it? What are the checks and balances?
Ok let me ask you a question and its a serious one
The government precog facility says you are going to commit murder but the only evidence is the precogs?
How do you tell the difference between The precogs are correct. A malicious government wants you out the way and manufactured the report.
It is almost impossible to prove a negative when all you can say is I would never have done it and there is no proof you would or wouldn't have. This is a world you would like?
That's a good question. It would be open to abuse, I can see that. The risks are huge. But the potential benefit side of the equation is also huge. The end of pre-meditated serious crime is something not to be sneezed at.
I thought it would be obvious why there aren't many opinion polls in the weeks after a general election.
There have always been polls days after the election, so it's obviously not 'obvious' to the pollsters. I am delighted and relieved that VI polling has resumed.
Case in point Goodwin said he was one of the few people who predicted Leave would win and a Trump win in 2016.
Except in front of audience of academics on referendum day he predicted a 2% Remain victory and also said a few months later that Trump would fail to win.
In 2020/21 he deleted all his tweets saying Trump would win.
How many other British academics were prepared to publicly call out the ludicrous double standards when it comes to Jew hate in this country? Our institutions showed more solidarity with a single black man killed by a police officer in the United States than with Jews after the appalling October 7 pogrom.
Plenty did.
You always seem to pivot everything to the Jews, there are other things to judge things people on.
You appear tbe against antisemitism but seem to excuse racism and Islamophobia.
Where have I been defending racism? I haven't defended the rioters at all. As for 'Islamophobia' what exactly do you mean?
I try to raise awareness of the things that are not being talked about sufficiently - like Jew hatred since 7 October - rather than repeat what is all over the news.
Based on full slate Wisconsin H48% T43% Pennsylvania H48% T43% Nevada H42% T47% North Carolina H46% T44% Michigan H46% T44% Georgia T46% T46% Arizona H46% T42%
So Trump only ahead in Nevada
Trump is going to hate that Pennsylvania number - especially after the Republicans have their biggest ad spend there.
Although, if the latest Trumps ads are anything to go by - Harris in them for less than half a second, the rest things like Biden falling down aircraft steps - you have to wonder when they are going to catch up with his actual opponent.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
You seem unable to conceive of the state acting malevolently.
Despite the recent example of the Post Office, the Met and many more.
At the very least, they will take the attitude of "Computer says guilty". They have always done so, previously. And show no signs of learning.
Since no technology can be 100% accurate this will mean that they will be quite willing to punish innocent people for crimes they didn't commit.
Of course I know the state can be malevolent! That's a bit of a silly comment. That's like me saying you seem unable to conceive of the state *not* acting malevolently.
My 'complacency' vs your 'paranoia' - both bum raps.
C'mon. Let's not tilt at windmills.
The "windmills" are actual examples of actual abuse. As the dog returns to his vomit, The System will do what it does. Again and again.
This is why we have Innocent until proven Guilty and many more protections.
Based on full slate Wisconsin H48% T43% Pennsylvania H48% T43% Nevada H42% T47% North Carolina H46% T44% Michigan H46% T44% Georgia T46% T46% Arizona H46% T42%
So Trump only ahead in Nevada
Must be an outlier! (The Nevada poll, I mean obvs.)
Nevada is perenially the Democrats' Lucy to Charlie Brown's Republicans. The Republican's think Nevada is theirs - and then the ball gets pulled away at the last moment.
In May, in the five-way horserace including third party candidates, just 82% of the voters who supported Biden in 2020 were committed to voting for him this fall. Harris is getting 91% of those voters. Among independent voters, Harris leads Trump 48% to 40% in the 2-way head-to-head. In May, Trump led Biden among independent voters by three points (41% to 38%).
Trump, however, continues to hold an advantage over Harris on issues like the border and immigration (+14 points), getting inflation and the cost of living under control (+6) and dealing with crime and violence (+4). Undecided voters and third-party voters overwhelmingly say that they are more worried about Harris setting economic policy than they are about Trump setting immigration policy.
I thought it would be obvious why there aren't many opinion polls in the weeks after a general election.
There have always been polls days after the election, so it's obviously not 'obvious' to the pollsters. I am delighted and relieved that VI polling has resumed.
Since the 2024 election ~40 days ago there have been two opinion polls, exactly the same number as at the same point after the 2019 election.
"German authorities have issued an arrest warrant over the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines nearly two years ago, according to German news outlets ARD, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Zeit.
In an investigation published Wednesday, the outlets reported that the suspect is a Ukrainian diving instructor, named only as Volodymyr Z. for privacy reasons.
It is alleged he attacked the pipelines in tandem with at least two others, who are also believed to be Ukrainian citizens.
The suspect was believed to last be living in Poland, but Polish authorities said they could not act on the warrant because he had left the country."
Utterly disgraceful to be wanting to arrest a Ukrainian for attacking Russian infrastructure during a war Russia has started.
Shame on Germany.
Massive fuckup by Ukraine if they got caught carrying out pointless international terrorism and so risk public support in what could soon be their most important ally. Different thing if they destroy pipelines in Russia - and they have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the ones that go via Ukraine which are still running, but they havent. Not a good look.
You're assuming national level involvement. Mind you, everyone seems to.
The pipelines were marked on standard navigation charts. The water isn't that deep. A handful of people could have done this quite easily.
Yes, the story is Zelenskyy didn't know about it in advance, but it came from Zaluzhnyi who was commander in chief at the time. All speculative, but the AfD are bound to have a field day with this story.
Why, because the AfD are against Ukraine defending themselves?
If Russian pipelines don't want to be blown up, perhaps Russia shouldn't go invading other countries with a populace willing and able to defend themselves.
Whoever blew it up should get a medal, not an arrest warrant.
Yes the AfD are fairly pro-Putin. Try to keep up.
I know they're pro-Putin and shame on them for that.
The electorate should not be and should be punishing them for their pro-Putinism, not letting them "have a field day".
Nor should the prosecution service be pandering to them by issuing arrest warrants for Ukrainians defending their country by destroying the invaders infrastructure.
Well done to the attackers.
Shame on Germany.
Germany has been trying to pretend they have no idea who did the attack for quite some time, but it's not sustainable. The government could have put an end to the investigation and tried to suppress the truth I guess, but probably would have only fuelled conspiracy theories.
Blowing up a pipeline that wasn't being used was a fucking stupid thing to do. The attackers were morons.
You've been an apologist for Germany and pro-Russian antics since the war began so I'm not surprised at you being on the wrong side of history here today either.
I'll give you 50 quid if you can find a single example of me being an apologist for pro-Russian antics. In return if you can't find one you promise to stop telling lies about me you lying piece of shit. Deal?
The fact is blowing up Nord Stream was against Ukrainian interests. But your number one priority is saying shame on Germany whenever you can. Did a German once piss on your cornflakes or something?
You're being an apologist for pro-Russian antics today, siding with the AfD while you do so.
How do you want to send me that £50?
Blowing up Nord Stream was absolutely in Ukraine's interests. Closing the door on the possibility that Ukraine would be sold out rapidly (as many wanted) in order to get Nord Stream flowing again was absolutely a material victory in the war.
You're a fucking moron if you think I side with the AfD. So you can't find a single example you really are the most tedious narrow-minded ignorant fanatic dogmatic poster on here.
Please can someone ban this obnoxious liar and bring back Leon? He at least has left his basement and has some tenuous connection with reality.
No lies, but I don't know of any way to do an advanced search on the forum posts (if anyone knows of a way of doing so I'd be interested) but its not the first time we've had this conversation.
Germany were very obstructionist to weapons being sent to Ukraine earlier in the war and you were at the time an apologist for that.
They've done much better since - and kudos to them for that and I've applauded them for that. I'm not anti-Germany, I'm pro-Ukraine.
But the idea that blowing up Nord Stream was bad for Ukraine? Utterly insane and preposterous, it was great for Ukraine to close the door on the notion of getting Nord Stream flowing again - which is what the AfD and your other fellow travellers wanted.
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London. It is quicker to fly to Spain or Portugal. The town might get a few day trippers on the train but why go there if you can get to Southend more easily or head to the south coast? You are just not going to get families there for extended holidays. It needs a total reinvention if it is to bounce back. I am not sure being Reform Central is going to help on that front - especially as Farage gives every impression of being entirely uninterested in promoting the place.
Three hours from London!? It takes me two and a half from south of Oxford to Colchester and it’s ftwenty minutes from there to Clacton
You're not getting out of London!
Playing with Google Maps its saying its about 90 minutes from Barking or Enfield, less from Dagenham or Romford. Those all count as London don't they?
No motorway there though which certainly makes the journey time much longer than it could be. Looking at the map, I wouldn't put a motorway to Clacton but you could certainly make a case for one that connects Ipswich, Colchester and Chemsford to the M25, and you could then come off that motorway just after Chelmsford to connect to Clacton if it existed.
Advantage of new roads of course being you could create new towns along that route as well as building trade and connections between the towns mentioned.
The A12's close to motorway standard for much of it's route through Essex. It's just busy!
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying I was impressed by the specifics of the Pre-Cog regime in the film. I wasn't. It was - clearly - a warning not an instruction manual.
But the concept, of preventing crime that way, is one I found appealing. That's what I'm saying. The concept.
There's a genuine difference here between me and people (eg viewcode and maybe you?) who find it philosophically revolting that anybody could be arrested and charged for something they were about to do but hadn't yet done.
I don't have a fundamental problem with that. For me it's mainly about the practicalities. How will the tech work? Who will maintain it? What are the checks and balances?
Ok let me ask you a question and its a serious one
The government precog facility says you are going to commit murder but the only evidence is the precogs?
How do you tell the difference between The precogs are correct. A malicious government wants you out the way and manufactured the report.
It is almost impossible to prove a negative when all you can say is I would never have done it and there is no proof you would or wouldn't have. This is a world you would like?
That's a good question. It would be open to abuse, I can see that. The risks are huge. But the potential benefit side of the equation is also huge. The end of pre-meditated serious crime is something not to be sneezed at.
So if you admit there is scope for abuse in this
How many innocent people are you willing to see punished (victims of that abuse) for these huge benefits?
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
It's not exactly the same thing but it's in the ballpark. The sentences can be similar for the plan as for the planned deed.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
It's not exactly the same thing but it's in the ballpark. The sentences can be similar for the plan as for the planned deed.
But in the case of the precog stuff you have no more than the word of for example an ai/gifted person...no evidence except that and how do you prove you were never going to do something you hadn't even planned yet even if it was a positive event and in a year you would have planned to plant a bomb? At least now for conspiracy the state actually has to have some evidence you were actively planning. Your way its just someone says you will do at some future time
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
Philip K. Dick was a very imaginative writer, who also took way too many drugs. It's a great film, but the idea is a result of drug-fuelled paranoia, not a documentary. I'm unclear why it's being discussed as some sort of achievable reality.
In any event, we evidently can’t even deal with post crime.
Posted upthread… https://x.com/DrRebeccaTidy/status/1823618910102388771 These 2 Plymouth rioters have been convicted of 209 previous offences + they told the police they were rioting because immigrants cost the taxpayer too much money.
Judge Linford made them work out how much their offending had cost Britain's taxpayers over the last 38 years.
Theft; arson; taking cars; handling stolen goods; burglary; criminal damage; drug dealing; robbery; etc.
Over nearly four decades.
If you study criminal stats, it becomes clear that a lot of crime is committed by "regulars"
These are further categorised into the disorganised ones who commit a range of crimes and the organised ones who specialise. In the latter category, you find burglars who rob multiple properties per day.
Prison works in the case of such people - warehouse them until they change their minds about committing crime the way some people drink water.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
It's not exactly the same thing but it's in the ballpark. The sentences can be similar for the plan as for the planned deed.
But in the case of the precog stuff you have no more than the word of for example an ai/gifted person...no evidence except that and how do you prove you were never going to do something you hadn't even planned yet even if it was a positive event and in a year you would have planned to plant a bomb? At least now for conspiracy the state actually has to have some evidence you were actively planning. Your way its just someone says you will do at some future time
It's all OK
I just created an LLM and ran it over @kinabalu's postings on PB
Sadly, he is going to commit a crime to hideous to mention.
Regarding seaside towns, its quite possible to have both successful and unsuccessful seaside towns just a few miles apart.
In the Northwest I'd say Blackpool fits within the Clacton stereotype of a struggling seaside resort that is no longer as attractive as it was to British tourists, though it still gets a lot of tourist income its quite run down in places.
Just a few miles down the road though in Lytham it is clean, busy still at the beach but not run down or tatty and with lots of well off homes and businesses in the area. Fylde was narrowly held by the Tories even in 2024. Quite a bit of construction going on in Lytham too as people want to move there, which is a good thing in my view, you know what I think about construction, but its certainly not blighted.
Clacton should have better weather than Lytham and quite a few opportunities, how you get it to go from failing to successful I'm not entirely certain but its not impossible and there's no reason for seaside to be blighted by nature, quite the opposite.
One of the bigger issues is that success breeds success and failure breeds failure.
Clacton is bloody hard to get to by car, if memory serves me right. Something like a three hour journey from London.
1 hour 35 minutes from Ilford North, according to Google.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
It's not exactly the same thing but it's in the ballpark. The sentences can be similar for the plan as for the planned deed.
But in the case of the precog stuff you have no more than the word of for example an ai/gifted person...no evidence except that and how do you prove you were never going to do something you hadn't even planned yet even if it was a positive event and in a year you would have planned to plant a bomb? At least now for conspiracy the state actually has to have some evidence you were actively planning. Your way its just someone says you will do at some future time
It's all OK
I just created an LLM and ran it over @kinabalu's postings on PB
Sadly, he is going to commit a crime to hideous to mention.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
I confess I've only seen the film, rather than read the bokk, but it's not my memory that the perp gets a shot at rehabilitation. Rather, the perp gets imprisoned (in, I think, a weird futuristic prison, but that's not important) as if he had committed the crime. I don't know if that changes your position? I'm all for the police stopping murders, of course.
I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying I was impressed by the specifics of the Pre-Cog regime in the film. I wasn't. It was - clearly - a warning not an instruction manual.
But the concept, of preventing crime that way, is one I found appealing. That's what I'm saying. The concept.
There's a genuine difference here between me and people (eg viewcode and maybe you?) who find it philosophically revolting that anybody could be arrested and charged for something they were about to do but hadn't yet done.
I don't have a fundamental problem with that. For me it's mainly about the practicalities. How will the tech work? Who will maintain it? What are the checks and balances?
Perfectly happy to have a difference of philosophy, though I'm not sure where I draw the line. Fella with a gun he's pointing at someone with every indication he may shoot? I'm perfectly happy that he be arrested, and if not charged with murder then certainly charged with something. Fella who owns a potentially offensive but arguably innocent weapon (a sledgehammer, perhaps) we've reason to believe he might use offensively tomorrow - well I'm perhaps less happy with him being arrested and charged.
Goodwin was driven mad by the people driven mad by Brexit (he's pretty much admitted it). His background is northern white working class. He takes it personally. Which can become a problem if you are in academia.
He's not mad, he's just realised there's good money to be made by joining the alt-right grift parade.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
It's not exactly the same thing but it's in the ballpark. The sentences can be similar for the plan as for the planned deed.
But in the case of the precog stuff you have no more than the word of for example an ai/gifted person...no evidence except that and how do you prove you were never going to do something you hadn't even planned yet even if it was a positive event and in a year you would have planned to plant a bomb? At least now for conspiracy the state actually has to have some evidence you were actively planning. Your way its just someone says you will do at some future time
It's all OK
I just created an LLM and ran it over @kinabalu's postings on PB
Sadly, he is going to commit a crime to hideous to mention.
https://www.greaterlondon.co/p/safer-streets ...About eight percent of those killed on the road each year – 130 people – are killed by that one percent of uninsured drivers. According to West Mercia Police, uninsured drivers are also ten times more likely to be a convicted drink driver, six times more likely to have a defective vehicle, and five times more likely to get caught speeding by cameras. Clearly not all serious car crimes are committed by those driving without insurance, but a significant fraction are.
What makes this especially notable is that there is an easy way we could make a big difference to the number of uninsured and untaxed drivers on London’s streets, making the roads safer for other road users. You will already know that there are about 2,000 cameras around London, which use automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) to enforce the congestion charge, ultra-low emissions zone, and more. They’re also accessible by police.
Police cars have their own cameras. If one of the police cameras sees an uninsured or untaxed car it pings the policeman automatically and they can decide whether to pursue and stop it. But the vast majority of cameras, the non-police cameras that you go past every day on London’s roads, don’t alert them: they just pump the data (which numberplates were where) into a database.
To be clear, the police are allowed to access this information, they just don’t get sent it by default. If they did manually pore over the records they would find all the uninsured and untaxed drivers driving around, plus those previously used for crimes, and those with suspicious plates. But by the time they did that the car would be long gone, so in practice the perpetrators get away with it practically every time. What the Met need is an automatic ping, like they get with their own cameras.
This could go beyond telling police where uninsured drivers are going. Cloning number plates is itself a crime, but it is also only useful if you are trying to cover up another crime by pretending to be someone else, so picking up those driving with fake numberplates could help prevent many other crimes. It would only take a simple predictive system, which looked at where the car was registered, and where it had last been tracked by cameras, to identify and rapidly investigate suspicious cars...
I suspect that such surveillance would payoff by detecting a lot of other crimes and antisocial behavior.
Nick them and confiscate their vehicles.
If we surveil people 24hrs a day and combine it with numerous "nudge" and hate-crime programs, we can realistically reduce crime and antisocial behaviour to zero...
...But having built Hell, who would want to live in it?
You’re so unambitious, we want to focus on pre-crime like in Minority Report.
I loved that film and was quite attracted to the idea of arresting a perp before he gets to actually perp. Devil in the detail though.
Honestly? You do realise it's supposed to be a dystopia?
Yep, but in theory I like it. If you really could home in on a person who was tracking for absolute certain to carry out murder most foul, planning done, route scouted, knife cleaned and sharpened, mentally 100% resolved, and today is the day. So off he goes, buys his ticket ... but then bam, the Authorities swoop in and he is foiled. Crime doesn't happen. Victim lives. Perp gets a shot at rehabilitation.
Nothing Orwellian about that. It's a deeply benign vision.
Orwellian is the total surveillance. Which leads, inevitably, to corruption.
Or did you think Dr Raymond Cocteau was the hero?
As I said, devil in the detail. Nobody wants anything Orwellian. The "Pre Cog" tech, when it's invented, has to pass the cost/benefit test.
But let's not reject out of hand. Let's keep an open mind until we see what the Authorities come up with on this one.
No, let's not.
Your attitude is disappointing but it doesn't matter since we don't have the tech yet. It's years away. Hopefully you'll be less knee-jerk hostile by then.
The state spying on people and judging people before they've acted is illiberal and never OK, even if the tech were there.
What about (which can happen under the law now) where the police foil a terrorist plot? Acting on intel they arrest a bunch of guys the day before they were going to plant the bomb. You'd say that's wrong, would you?
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
That's not precog.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
It's not exactly the same thing but it's in the ballpark. The sentences can be similar for the plan as for the planned deed.
But in the case of the precog stuff you have no more than the word of for example an ai/gifted person...no evidence except that and how do you prove you were never going to do something you hadn't even planned yet even if it was a positive event and in a year you would have planned to plant a bomb? At least now for conspiracy the state actually has to have some evidence you were actively planning. Your way its just someone says you will do at some future time
It's all OK
I just created an LLM and ran it over @kinabalu's postings on PB
Sadly, he is going to commit a crime to hideous to mention.
Comments
Labour leadership are reluctant to discuss the causes of the riots for fear of legitimising them, which is okay, but they do need to try to address the causes anyway.
Pre-Cog tech is no different in this respect. It will need rigorous due diligence before being implemented. I think we'd all agree with that.
So far quite happy with them though. They seem quite fair with their pricing and recently recommended I reduce my monthly payment by £10.
And obsessing over immigration isn’t how you start doing it.
From a legal perspective, it is German (because it owned by a German company), but you can make a case that it is 51% Russian if you like.
The fact is blowing up Nord Stream was against Ukrainian interests. But your number one priority is saying shame on Germany whenever you can. Did a German once piss on your cornflakes or something?
He's not the only one to be driven mad by that swamp.
Where there does need to be discussions is about the impact of globalization on communities, and how the government can best support people and improve outcomes. But Goodwin seems remarkably uninterested the moment any topic gets away from a simplistic "blame the elites" narrative.
He really isn’t an evidence based person any more.
He also lies/deletes his predictions/stuff to make himself look good.
(JOKE. IT WAS A JOKE.)
Posted upthread…
https://x.com/DrRebeccaTidy/status/1823618910102388771
These 2 Plymouth rioters have been convicted of 209 previous offences + they told the police they were rioting because immigrants cost the taxpayer too much money.
Judge Linford made them work out how much their offending had cost Britain's taxpayers over the last 38 years.
Theft; arson; taking cars; handling stolen goods; burglary; criminal damage; drug dealing; robbery; etc.
Over nearly four decades.
Except in front of audience of academics on referendum day he predicted a 2% Remain victory and also said a few months later that Trump would fail to win.
In 2020/21 he deleted all his tweets saying Trump would win.
(also a JOKE)
How do you want to send me that £50?
Blowing up Nord Stream was absolutely in Ukraine's interests. Closing the door on the possibility that Ukraine would be sold out rapidly (as many wanted) in order to get Nord Stream flowing again was absolutely a material victory in the war.
They need to show that they can do better.
As you say, prosperity would make much of the current obsessions disappear.
C'mon. Stop the knee-jerk virtue-signalling.
Plotting to plant a bomb is a crime. You don't need to wait for the bomb to go off to arrest someone for that, because the very act of planning the bombing is a crime in and of itself. Not a thought crime, not a pre-crime, an actual crime.
Precog would be suggesting that we can arrest people because evidence suggests they would have plotted to plant a bomb in the future. Completely different thing.
You have shills, I have supporters.
Please can someone ban this obnoxious liar and bring back Leon? He at least has left his basement and has some tenuous connection with reality.
“This is just a remix?” This is how lazy Trump is- he’s using the exact same attack lines against Kamala Harris as he did against Joe Biden.
https://x.com/MikeSington/status/1823440408300634329
https://www.270towin.com/polls/latest-2024-presidential-election-polls/
Based on full slate
Wisconsin H48% T43%
Pennsylvania H48% T43%
Nevada H42% T47%
North Carolina H46% T44%
Michigan H46% T44%
Georgia T46% T46%
Arizona H46% T42%
So Trump only ahead in Nevada
It takes me two and a half from south of Oxford to Colchester and it’s ftwenty minutes from there to Clacton
But the concept, of preventing crime that way, is one I found appealing. That's what I'm saying. The concept.
There's a genuine difference here between me and people (eg viewcode and maybe you?) who find it philosophically revolting that anybody could be arrested and charged for something they were about to do but hadn't yet done.
I don't have a fundamental problem with that. For me it's mainly about the practicalities. How will the tech work? Who will maintain it? What are the checks and balances?
Germany were very obstructionist to weapons being sent to Ukraine earlier in the war and you were at the time an apologist for that.
They've done much better since - and kudos to them for that and I've applauded them for that. I'm not anti-Germany, I'm pro-Ukraine.
But the idea that blowing up Nord Stream was bad for Ukraine? Utterly insane and preposterous, it was great for Ukraine to close the door on the notion of getting Nord Stream flowing again - which is what the AfD and your other fellow travellers wanted.
The government precog facility says you are going to commit murder but the only evidence is the precogs?
How do you tell the difference between
The precogs are correct.
A malicious government wants you out the way and manufactured the report.
It is almost impossible to prove a negative when all you can say is I would never have done it and there is no proof you would or wouldn't have. This is a world you would like?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoJ6pZfU08M
How many other British academics were prepared to publicly call out the ludicrous double standards when it comes to Jew hate in this country? Our institutions showed more solidarity with a single black man killed by a police officer in the United States than with Jews after the appalling October 7 pogrom.
My 'complacency' vs your 'paranoia' - both bum raps.
C'mon. Let's not tilt at windmills.
You always seem to pivot everything to the Jews, there are other things to judge things people on.
You appear tbe against antisemitism but seem to excuse racism and Islamophobia.
The train's not as good now because basically it's been turned into a branch line beyond Colchester; Greater Anglia's really interested in the Norwich to London line, not the 'sidearms'. AFAICS, anyway.
No motorway there though which certainly makes the journey time much longer than it could be. Looking at the map, I wouldn't put a motorway to Clacton but you could certainly make a case for one that connects Ipswich, Colchester and Chemsford to the M25, and you could then come off that motorway just after Chelmsford to connect to Clacton if it existed.
Advantage of new roads of course being you could create new towns along that route as well as building trade and connections between the towns mentioned.
NEW THREAD
I try to raise awareness of the things that are not being talked about sufficiently - like Jew hatred since 7 October - rather than repeat what is all over the news.
Although, if the latest Trumps ads are anything to go by - Harris in them for less than half a second, the rest things like Biden falling down aircraft steps - you have to wonder when they are going to catch up with his actual opponent.
What happened last night was not funny. Far-left activists disrupted the event, which then had to be stopped for security reasons.
This is done to intimidate people and suppress free speech. I won't stand for it.
Would we see the same reaction if the activists were far-right?
This is why we have Innocent until proven Guilty and many more protections.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk
In May, in the five-way horserace including third party candidates, just 82% of the voters who supported Biden in 2020 were committed to voting for him this fall. Harris is getting 91% of those voters. Among independent voters, Harris leads Trump 48% to 40% in the 2-way head-to-head. In May, Trump led Biden among independent voters by three points (41% to 38%).
Trump, however, continues to hold an advantage over Harris on issues like the border and immigration (+14 points), getting inflation and the cost of living under control (+6) and dealing with crime and violence (+4). Undecided voters and third-party voters overwhelmingly say that they are more worried about Harris setting economic policy than they are about Trump setting immigration policy.
How many innocent people are you willing to see punished (victims of that abuse) for these huge benefits?
These are further categorised into the disorganised ones who commit a range of crimes and the organised ones who specialise. In the latter category, you find burglars who rob multiple properties per day.
Prison works in the case of such people - warehouse them until they change their minds about committing crime the way some people drink water.
I just created an LLM and ran it over @kinabalu's postings on PB
Sadly, he is going to commit a crime to hideous to mention.
@kinabalu you need to report for sentencing.
There is no appeal.