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The betting (and polling) seem to be headed in one direction for the moment – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited August 26 in General
imageThe betting (and polling) seem to be headed in one direction for the moment – politicalbetting.com

Kamala Harris leads Donald Trump in three crucial battleground states, according to new surveys by The New York Times and Siena College, the latest indication of a dramatic reversal in standing for Democrats since President Biden ended his re-election bid. https://t.co/lhXdmnNImo

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,880
    Time for an Eccles Cake.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MattW said:

    Time for an Eccles Cake.

    Nice. I haven’t even seen one for years.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    He didn't say "likely", he said "know".

    Yes. And I note that whilst you offer the opinion in measured terms, you also believe it. You would have to be a first rate idiot not to believe it. And nobody here is a first rate idiot.
    There's a very important difference between "thinking likely" (even very likely) and "knowing".

    I know the earth is roughly cylindrical and that it orbits the Sun. It seems staggeringly unlikely that that belief could turn out to be wrong.

    I think it is highly likely that Covid was released as a result of a lab leak of some kind (and I draw the definition of lab leak fairly widely). But if we were to discover a colony of bats 70 miles from Wuhan that were all carrying Covid-19 and who appear to have lived with it for a long time, we would clearly need to adjust the probability for a lab leak rather than a zoonotic event way down. Would it surprise me if such a colony was found? I think it unlikely, but not vanishingly so.

    "Knowing" is more than even "reasonable doubt". It means, essentially, certainty. And I'm not certain, I merely think a lab leak fits the current facts better than an entirely zoonotic explanation.
    I didn't say we were 100% certain - though it's as certain as many other accepted facts in life. I said everybody here believes it. Because we all do.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,144
    Fifth…like someone who is, fifth.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    On July 15th, just three weeks ago, PredictIt had Trump with a 69% chance of winning the election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    IanB2 said:

    Fifth…like someone who is, fifth.

    You’ll never become President with that kind of realistic thinking. You were first, but it was stolen from you by a cabal of lizard men.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    That last sentence is painful to read. Maybe -

    “Harris’ failure to pick Shapiro as her running mate does not appear to have damaged her chances in Pennsylvania.”

    ?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    I thought it was Kiwi? Founded by the University of Wellington?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    Yes - I would say the race is on a knife edge. With a slight advantage to Harris.

    Her big advantage is that she is a reasonable candidate with a reasonable running mate against a pair of very weird… characters.

    On the other hand, there is little sign of the Trump Wall crumbling. We’ve been waiting the best part of a decade for the Orange Implosion.

    So it’s up to Harris/Walz to get all the Democrats out and start gathering the swing voters - maybe 10% out there who are moveable.

    I would say that so far, Harris has done an incredible job on party unity. Her choice of VP has met with universal praise in the party and beyond.

    So she’s got the base and party fired up - good for turnout.

    This is a very good position to build on. But to win she needs more.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,488
    edited August 10
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
    You'll forgive me if, not being an expert in the field myself, I give more weight to the opinions of the experts in the field rather than those of a couple of randoms on the internet.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/virologists-and-epidemiologists-back-natural-origin-covid-19-survey-suggests

    Your whole approach to the issue is irrational. What you call gathering evidence is simply confirmation bias on your part. You have no idea at all how to approach this issue, or any other issue, in a dispassionate manner. But then, why would you? Dispassion isn't what you trade in.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    I actually think the reverse. That Biden being replaced by a viable Dem candidate has left Trump like a beached whale and the betting is struggling to reflect how diminished his prospects have become.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    Very interesting, thanks. Makes me less inclined to put a bet on at the current available odds.

    My bias is remembering 2016 when literally everyone said Trump couldn't win. I had him at 50/1, but cashed out after the first debate at 5/1 because *I simply couldn't believe* America would elect the man after that performance. But that was my own bias showing. Now I'm probably over-correcting a bit, going *I absolutely can believe* American voters could elect him again despite my own disbelief. Good to see what a US market actually thinks.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,434

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
    You'll forgive me if, not being an expert in the field myself, I give more weight to the opinions of the experts in the field rather than those of a couple of randoms on the internet.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/virologists-and-epidemiologists-back-natural-origin-covid-19-survey-suggests
    Didn't you read the last thread? You cannot listen to expert opinions on this, because they're all part of it! You can only listen to the ravings of non-experts who've read stuff off Twitter! ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Time for an Eccles Cake.

    Nice. I haven’t even seen one for years.
    https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/real-lancashire-eccles-cakes-x4

    Mrs C used to buy them fairly regularly from Sainsburys - imported all the way from lancashire. Apparently however made in somewhere called Ardwick, which is seemingly the wrong side of the river and Salford.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,434
    I know @Leon will mutter some shit about Musk Derangement Syndrome, but just look at the state of the stuff Musk's feeding to his followers:

    "It’s 2030 in the UK & you’re being executed for posting a meme …"

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1822254173359890461
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,434
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Time for an Eccles Cake.

    Nice. I haven’t even seen one for years.
    https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/real-lancashire-eccles-cakes-x4

    Mrs C used to buy them fairly regularly from Sainsburys - imported all the way from lancashire. Apparently however made in somewhere called Ardwick, which is seemingly the wrong side of the river and Salford.
    My local Morrisons and Co-Op both stock Eccles Cakes. Thank God. Usually the 'Real Lancashire' brand.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 10

    I know @Leon will mutter some shit about Musk Derangement Syndrome, but just look at the state of the stuff Musk's feeding to his followers:

    "It’s 2030 in the UK & you’re being executed for posting a meme …"

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1822254173359890461

    Ignore and he’ll find something else to fixate on. There’s a big election coming up in the US I understand.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
    OK.

    So, this is where you and I slightly break ranks, because there is plenty of evidence that the vast bulk of coronavirus research took place at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, while the CDC was a much smaller facility with a much broader remit. If you go back and look at the Internet Archive from pre-Covid, you can see that the mission of the Chinese CDC - like in the US - has a primary focus on "preparing for and responding to public health emergencies, including pandemics, natural disasters, and bioterrorism. This involves developing protocols and response strategies for various scenarios." The other major element (for Wuhan) is "conducts laboratory-based research to develop diagnostic tools and improve the detection of infectious diseases. This includes the development of PCR tests and other methodologies for identifying pathogens in clinical and environmental samples."

    The main site for the studying of bats and coronaviruses was the WIV. I think it is massively more likely it escaped from there than from the CDC. And I think the location thing is a complete red herring: what you think that people that work at the WIV don't live all over the city? Because in all probability we're talking about a single employee who got the sniffles, and maybe gave it to a wife or son or neighbour or cleaner or person on public transport, and who took it to the wet market.

    Could it have escaped from the CDC? Sure. But if there are 1,000x more bat viruses at another facility in Wuhan, and people in Wuhan get around, then I think the balance of probabilities is clearly on the side of the WIV.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    Very interesting, thanks. Makes me less inclined to put a bet on at the current available odds.

    My bias is remembering 2016 when literally everyone said Trump couldn't win. I had him at 50/1, but cashed out after the first debate at 5/1 because *I simply couldn't believe* America would elect the man after that performance. But that was my own bias showing. Now I'm probably over-correcting a bit, going *I absolutely can believe* American voters could elect him again despite my own disbelief. Good to see what a US market actually thinks.
    The big money is always made on the night, when the market is slow to respond to new information.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,286
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
    I don't think it's that admitting you're right is hard to swallow. I think it's that you go 'all in' on things on here. There is little nuance in your comments.

    Your credibility as a source of info on the lab leak is low because you very clearly went all in on it a while ago. Anyone can find a scientific paper to back their argument because internet, though it does you credit that you go to the effort of doing so.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    I thought it was Kiwi? Founded by the University of Wellington?
    You are correct, however: To operate legally in the United States, PredictIt sought and received a "No-Action" letter from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) in October 2014. This letter allowed PredictIt to function without being subjected to the full range of regulatory requirements typically imposed on financial markets, under the condition that it would operate within strict guidelines. These guidelines included limits on the number of traders per market (5,000) and the maximum investment per market ($850).

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    I thought it was Kiwi? Founded by the University of Wellington?
    You are correct, however: To operate legally in the United States, PredictIt sought and received a "No-Action" letter from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) in October 2014. This letter allowed PredictIt to function without being subjected to the full range of regulatory requirements typically imposed on financial markets, under the condition that it would operate within strict guidelines. These guidelines included limits on the number of traders per market (5,000) and the maximum investment per market ($850).

    I see. Also, reading the terms and conditions on the site, it appears to be run from the US now too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    On July 15th, just three weeks ago, PredictIt had Trump with a 69% chance of winning the election.
    It shows how much of it was due to having an untenable opponent. That plus the emotional rush after the assassination attempt. Which oddly I think might end up having hurt him since it led to that creepy messaniac atmosphere at the RNC. He came across there as, yes, weird. The sort of person you'd move away from if he sat opposite you on the tube.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    To be honest, this probably makes the odds more realistic.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    edited August 10
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Time for an Eccles Cake.

    Nice. I haven’t even seen one for years.
    https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/real-lancashire-eccles-cakes-x4

    Mrs C used to buy them fairly regularly from Sainsburys - imported all the way from lancashire. Apparently however made in somewhere called Ardwick, which is seemingly the wrong side of the river and Salford.
    We …… well, my Mrs C…… get them, and I enjoy them regularly here.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    No sign of these polls on the 538 polls listing.

    Whereas they are listing Trafalgar Group polls all showing Trump leading.

    Is 538 being slow or cherry picking?

    Is there ANY site which just lists all polls promptly?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    "Angela Rayner scraps plans to limit social housing applications to long-term British residents

    Labour ends plans by Michael Gove to introduce a ‘UK connection test’ to limit social housing to those resident for at least 10 years"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/10/angela-rayner-social-housing-migrants-drop-restrictions/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    edited August 10

    I know @Leon will mutter some shit about Musk Derangement Syndrome, but just look at the state of the stuff Musk's feeding to his followers:

    "It’s 2030 in the UK & you’re being executed for posting a meme …"

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1822254173359890461

    Man with huge power exerts it for ill - how many of the worst episodes in human history have been caused by that?

    Or is it simpler to list those that weren't?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MikeL said:

    No sign of these polls on the 538 polls listing.

    Whereas they are listing Trafalgar Group polls all showing Trump leading.

    Is 538 being slow or cherry picking?

    Is there ANY site which just lists all polls promptly?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Give them a chance. It’s only noon on the US East Coast, and it’s a Saturday. Someone who knows a Wikipedian should nudge them to set up the equivalent of the U.K. poll page but, given the number and complexity (eg State polls) it would be quite a task.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Andy_JS said:

    "Angela Rayner scraps plans to limit social housing applications to long-term British residents

    Labour ends plans by Michael Gove to introduce a ‘UK connection test’ to limit social housing to those resident for at least 10 years"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/08/10/angela-rayner-social-housing-migrants-drop-restrictions/

    I think it would have been (successfully) challenged under the indirect discrimination provisions of the Equality Act and thus required primary legislation to push through.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    What's the difference between civil disobedience and riots?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    Re value, I'd need Trump at 3 to think about closing some Big Short.

    But hey that's what makes betting tick. Different perceptions.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    edited August 10
    Andy_JS said:

    What's the difference between civil disobedience and riots?

    For a riot it has to be 12 or more people.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64#:~:text=(1)Where 12 or more,unlawful violence for the common
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    Andy_JS said:

    What's the difference between civil disobedience and riots?

    Violence, I'd say.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Andy_JS said:

    What's the difference between civil disobedience and riots?

    12 to 18 months
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Pelosi says she was never impressed with Biden’s political operation:

    https://x.com/newyorker/status/1821630968144294048
  • MoanRMoanR Posts: 24
    On the subject of the Riots. I think Musk is damaging the Tesla brand in the UK. Not sure this has been discussed on PB

    Below is a letter that I am sending to the nearby Tesla Centre.

    Key sentence; I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    ==============================================




    Dear Tesla

    I have an electric car (Volkswagen ID.3)

    Our next car will be electric. There is no way that I would buy a Tesla.

    I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    Elon Musk has allowed Tommy Robinson back onto X/Twitter and Musk seems to support the Far-Right.

    Regards
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Andy_JS said:

    What's the difference between civil disobedience and riots?

    Any number of things. Riots require 12 or more people with a common purpose violently putting your average person at immediate fear of their safety (s.1 Public Order Acf 1986) whereas civil disobedience doesn’t - in fact it’s not legally defined. Rosa Parks on a bus to Extinction Rebellion blocking the M25 have been described thus, but your definition probably depends on your politics.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    edited August 10
    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.
    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
  • ArchvaldorArchvaldor Posts: 18
    MoanR said:

    On the subject of the Riots. I think Musk is damaging the Tesla brand in the UK. Not sure this has been discussed on PB

    Below is a letter that I am sending to the nearby Tesla Centre.

    Key sentence; I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    ==============================================




    Dear Tesla

    I have an electric car (Volkswagen ID.3)

    Our next car will be electric. There is no way that I would buy a Tesla.

    I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    Elon Musk has allowed Tommy Robinson back onto X/Twitter and Musk seems to support the Far-Right.

    Regards

    I don't think Musk will care. The UK isn't a big enough market.

    If you want to damage his brand use some ai generating software to mock up an image of a tesla on fire this takes about a minute). Share it on social media. After all that would be "free speech" under Musk's definition.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    MoanR said:

    On the subject of the Riots. I think Musk is damaging the Tesla brand in the UK. Not sure this has been discussed on PB

    Below is a letter that I am sending to the nearby Tesla Centre.

    Key sentence; I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    ==============================================

    Dear Tesla

    I have an electric car (Volkswagen ID.3)

    Our next car will be electric. There is no way that I would buy a Tesla.

    I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    Elon Musk has allowed Tommy Robinson back onto X/Twitter and Musk seems to support the Far-Right.

    Regards

    Need more of this. And a move off X.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like - we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion. I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?
    Build ladders

    I have a theory that a part of the problem is people for whom there isn't *progression*

    In times past, work your whole life at a job. Get pay rises, sure. Maybe, if you were ambitious, the foreman's job.

    The modern world sells the idea that you should be going *up*.

    So you have people, who are in jobs, but they aren't going to progress. So they do their work. What's next?

    There is also, as a part of this, a lot of people bumbling along on a mix of benefits and part time, poorly paid work. How are they ever going to retire? A pension that would pay for their rent is beyond them.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
    You'll forgive me if, not being an expert in the field myself, I give more weight to the opinions of the experts in the field rather than those of a couple of randoms on the internet.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/virologists-and-epidemiologists-back-natural-origin-covid-19-survey-suggests
    Didn't you read the last thread? You cannot listen to expert opinions on this, because they're all part of it! You can only listen to the ravings of non-experts who've read stuff off Twitter! ;)
    HOW DARE YOU DISS in such outrageous fashion, PB's Perapathetic Traveller & Virologist-in-Chief!!!

    Have you NO shame???
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,434
    DougSeal said:

    I know @Leon will mutter some shit about Musk Derangement Syndrome, but just look at the state of the stuff Musk's feeding to his followers:

    "It’s 2030 in the UK & you’re being executed for posting a meme …"

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1822254173359890461

    Ignore and he’ll find something else to fixate on. There’s a big election coming up in the US I understand.
    The thing is, I reckon that there's a method in Musk's nastiness.

    Musk wants Trump/GOP to win. He's made that clear. Whether that is because a deal has been done, or he likes their anti-woman policies (*), or some other thing, I don't know. But there is a chance that the Dems might win, and that might be bad for him if he has attacked them too much.

    So instead of fully attacking them head-on, he's attacking a newly-elected leftish government in a country with close social and historic links to the USA - us. We are an exemplar for the USA, with a left government. And we are powerless to stop him trashing our reputation.

    And make no mistake: he is harming the UK.

    (*) He thinks the US should have a billion people in it, likes people to have large families, and is rabidly anti-immigration (except for him and his buds, of course). It's hard to square these without thinking he wants women to be baby-making machines - and the GOP's current policies are heading that way.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,434

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I'm not sure it's that big a coincidence. There must be quite a few virology research labs dotted around the world, and they will generally be in or near big cities, which is where outbreaks of disease are likely to occur.
    Oh ffs. This wasn’t any old virology lab

    This was the biggest lab in the world investigating coronaviruses. It was the ONLY lab in the world investigating coronaviruses in bats and trying to make them more pathogenic to mankind - gain of function - by passing them through humanised mice

    On top of that this precise lab made a proposal to do genetic engineering on the novel bat coronaviruses around 2018 that precisely match the weird evolutions that we see in SARSCOV-2

    And they did this in low level BSL2 labs (280m from the market) that Jeremy Farrar called “Wild West”

    As one of the main virologists in the world said in 2020 “it’s a nightmare of circumstantial evidence”
    Why is there the discrepancy between 280 metres from the market and 49 minutes from the market? They are very different.
    Because of people trying to obscure the truth. The fact that the Wuhan CDC is 2 minutes walk from the market is so inconvenient people of bad faith strive to ignore it

    The Wuhan CDC had strong links to the WIV. Both did intense research on novel bat coronaviruses, but the Wuhan CDC was much shoddier (BSL2). Initially it was denied that they had bats there, then too much evidence emerged that they did. eg


    "Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. "

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus

    This is from a research paper publushed in Feb 2020, by two Chinese scientists. They concluded the leak came from the Wuhan CDC and spread, as you would expect, in the very nearby wet market. The answer was right there all along, the Chinese admitted it!

    But then the Chinese deleted this paper and I've no idea what happened to the authors. Probably they fell out of a bamboo window

    The fact that people can know this and still claim to bel
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    How would you or Luckyguy know what anyone thinks? In my case, you are certainly wrong. My own feeling, from reading up on the scientific evidence, albeit without much expertise in the subject, is that zoonosis is the most likely explanation. I'm about 70% zoonosis, 30% lab leak at the moment.
    No, I can accept you sincerely believe you believe this; but you are in a kind of wilful or unknowing denial
    Self-delusion of that type isn't common - it would be mental. A more logical explanation is our zoonosis people are just arguing. Their argument is more important to them and their world view than what is true. It annoys me because I come to PB for adult discussion, which is based on good faith. However, it is what it is.
    I’ll use my photo quote to conclude the argument. Here is the location of the Wuhan CDC in relation to the huanan seafood wet market. 280m not “40 minutes and 10km”





    The Wuhan CDC kept thousands of bats, did extensive research alongside the WIV, had a history of accidents, spent months before the outbreak chaotically moving to this location, and worked at a dangerous BSL2 level - or “Wild West” as Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome institute put it

    I think the phrase is “case closed, m’Lud”

    They will still argue.
    Because, in a weird way, they do sincerely believe it. Like creationists confronted with Darwin's Theory of Evolution in the 19th century

    At first their position is logical, or so they think. Then overwhelming evidence emerges which shows they are wrong. So their logical position then evolves into a pious faith, absent rationality. So their belief is sincere, albeit ludicrous, and they manage to silence the doubt in their own minds. That is, I reckon, the process at work

    People like @foxy and @bondegezou have sincerely convinced themselves that it came from the market. You could probably show them a video of the first person with Covid being mauled on the scrotum by a mad frothy bat at the Wuhan lab, surrounded by signs saying Welcome to the Wuhan Bat Lab, and they'd still believe it came from the market. It is a religious tenet

    And that really is it on this topic, for today. Places to see and people to go. Later
    With all due respect, the same criticism could be levelled at you.

    Whenever someone looks at the evidence and says "on balance it looks like it came from a lab leak", you trumpet this as somehow new evidence, when it is nothing of the sort.

    No, it couldn't be levelled at me

    Look at the debate here today. Who is the only person offering citations, quotes, photos, new evidence. It's me, isn't it? Only me. Half the forum was apparently unaware that the Wuhan CDC was just 280m from the market. As you were unaware some months ago, until I corrected you

    I imagine 90% of the forum was unware of that early Chinese research paper identifying the Wuhan CDC as the source of Covid, now they know about it, because I have showed it to them, and linked to it. I give new evidence, and you are all better informed

    However, the ironic thing is I reckon the fact it is ME adducing this evidence probably makes quite a few people even more determined to believe it came from the market, because I am - on this site, but not in real life- notably arrogant, punchy and annoying, and admitting that I am right is too much to swallow. Which is amusing and perfectly fine, I come on the site to argue, not to nod along in boring, centrist dad agreement

    Now onwards to reorganise my wine collection. Later
    You'll forgive me if, not being an expert in the field myself, I give more weight to the opinions of the experts in the field rather than those of a couple of randoms on the internet.

    https://www.science.org/content/article/virologists-and-epidemiologists-back-natural-origin-covid-19-survey-suggests
    Didn't you read the last thread? You cannot listen to expert opinions on this, because they're all part of it! You can only listen to the ravings of non-experts who've read stuff off Twitter! ;)
    HOW DARE YOU DISS in such outrageous fashion, PB's Perapathetic Traveller & Virologist-in-Chief!!!

    Have you NO shame???
    Leon's expertise in a whole myriad of subjects is legendary. As the news cycle moves on, so does his expertise.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Time for an Eccles Cake.

    Nice. I haven’t even seen one for years.
    M&S food hall bakery eccles cake at £1.30 is, surprisingly, better than most independent bakeries' eccles cakes. Bigger fruit and plenty of big sugar crystals on top.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    DougSeal said:

    MikeL said:

    No sign of these polls on the 538 polls listing.

    Whereas they are listing Trafalgar Group polls all showing Trump leading.

    Is 538 being slow or cherry picking?

    Is there ANY site which just lists all polls promptly?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Give them a chance. It’s only noon on the US East Coast, and it’s a Saturday. Someone who knows a Wikipedian should nudge them to set up the equivalent of the U.K. poll page but, given the number and complexity (eg State polls) it would be quite a task.
    Would have thought that the "wonders" of AI and other such techno-crapola, would make it easy-peasy to update polling aggregators/aggrivators?

    IF they actually gave a damn about accuracy instead of pontificating about it!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    The wife has decided that she doesn’t want to risk a balls up with her absentee ballot again (like Connecticut’s a swing state FFS) and she’s decided to head over in person in November and take in some fall foliage at the same time. I’ve been invited but not sure I can handle the stress. I was nervous enough about ours and that only had one winner.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,330
    carnforth said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Time for an Eccles Cake.

    Nice. I haven’t even seen one for years.
    M&S food hall bakery eccles cake at £1.30 is, surprisingly, better than most independent bakeries' eccles cakes. Bigger fruit and plenty of big sugar crystals on top.
    Now this is a much more important debate than ...
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 10

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s got that avuncular football coach vibe that even we over on our faraway rainy island can spot.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s very much a type. I don’t profess to know America and the Americans well, but I recognise Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson when I see them.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 10
    TimS said:

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s very much a type. I don’t profess to know America and the Americans well, but I recognise Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson when I see them.
    I don’t think Flanders would agree on the good neighbours thing though
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,144
    Madison madness!
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    DougSeal said:

    TimS said:

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s very much a type. I don’t profess to know America and the Americans well, but I recognise Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson when I see them.
    I don’t think Flanders would agree on the good neighbours thing though
    Was there not an episode where George Bush (senior) moves in next door and becomes Homer's neighbour?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 10

    DougSeal said:

    MikeL said:

    No sign of these polls on the 538 polls listing.

    Whereas they are listing Trafalgar Group polls all showing Trump leading.

    Is 538 being slow or cherry picking?

    Is there ANY site which just lists all polls promptly?

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/

    Give them a chance. It’s only noon on the US East Coast, and it’s a Saturday. Someone who knows a Wikipedian should nudge them to set up the equivalent of the U.K. poll page but, given the number and complexity (eg State polls) it would be quite a task.
    Would have thought that the "wonders" of AI and other such techno-crapola, would make it easy-peasy to update polling aggregators/aggrivators?

    IF they actually gave a damn about accuracy instead of pontificating about it!
    I dunno - the go to “Polling for the Next United Kingdom General Election” page on Wikipedia took a few dedicated individuals to maintain and protect from vandalism. I think actual people are still needed. But I am surprised there’s no equivalent for the US.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    IanB2 said:

    Madison madness!

    Dutch should be disqualified for that.
    Absolute idiocy.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    kinabalu said:

    MoanR said:

    On the subject of the Riots. I think Musk is damaging the Tesla brand in the UK. Not sure this has been discussed on PB

    Below is a letter that I am sending to the nearby Tesla Centre.

    Key sentence; I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    ==============================================

    Dear Tesla

    I have an electric car (Volkswagen ID.3)

    Our next car will be electric. There is no way that I would buy a Tesla.

    I do not support rioting and throwing missiles at the police.

    Elon Musk has allowed Tommy Robinson back onto X/Twitter and Musk seems to support the Far-Right.

    Regards

    Need more of this. And a move off X.
    Similar campaigning eventually got Henry Ford to close down the Dearborn Independent.

    Funny how history rhymes...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    He didn't say "likely", he said "know".

    Yes. And I note that whilst you offer the opinion in measured terms, you also believe it. You would have to be a first rate idiot not to believe it. And nobody here is a first rate idiot.
    There's a very important difference between "thinking likely" (even very likely) and "knowing".

    I know the earth is roughly cylindrical and that it orbits the Sun. It seems staggeringly unlikely that that belief could turn out to be wrong.

    I think it is highly likely that Covid was released as a result of a lab leak of some kind (and I draw the definition of lab leak fairly widely). But if we were to discover a colony of bats 70 miles from Wuhan that were all carrying Covid-19 and who appear to have lived with it for a long time, we would clearly need to adjust the probability for a lab leak rather than a zoonotic event way down. Would it surprise me if such a colony was found? I think it unlikely, but not vanishingly so.

    "Knowing" is more than even "reasonable doubt". It means, essentially, certainty. And I'm not certain, I merely think a lab leak fits the current facts better than an entirely zoonotic explanation.
    I didn't say we were 100% certain - though it's as certain as many other accepted facts in life. I said everybody here believes it. Because we all do.
    You’re occasionally better than this, but today, you’re a fool.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited August 10
    kyf_100 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TimS said:

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s very much a type. I don’t profess to know America and the Americans well, but I recognise Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson when I see them.
    I don’t think Flanders would agree on the good neighbours thing though
    Was there not an episode where George Bush (senior) moves in next door and becomes Homer's neighbour?
    Hah! Yes - it was a reaction to the “America needs more families like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons” comment Bush made. Good spot.

    EDIT - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Bad_Neighbors
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Pelosi says she was never impressed with Biden’s political operation:

    https://x.com/newyorker/status/1821630968144294048

    That’s hardly a controversial opinion.
    His strength is (or was) in government.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    Very interesting, thanks. Makes me less inclined to put a bet on at the current available odds.

    My bias is remembering 2016 when literally everyone said Trump couldn't win. I had him at 50/1, but cashed out after the first debate at 5/1 because *I simply couldn't believe* America would elect the man after that performance. But that was my own bias showing. Now I'm probably over-correcting a bit, going *I absolutely can believe* American voters could elect him again despite my own disbelief. Good to see what a US market actually thinks.
    The big money is always made on the night, when the market is slow to respond to new information.
    Good point.
    I got much about the last Presidential wrong, but salvaged a very decent profit overall thanks to staying up through the night.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    DougSeal said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TimS said:

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s very much a type. I don’t profess to know America and the Americans well, but I recognise Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson when I see them.
    I don’t think Flanders would agree on the good neighbours thing though
    Was there not an episode where George Bush (senior) moves in next door and becomes Homer's neighbour?
    Hah! Yes - it was a reaction to the “America needs more families like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons” comment Bush made. Good spot.

    EDIT - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Bad_Neighbors
    That's the one. Did not know it was in response to something the real Bush Senior had said.

    The thing I take out of that era Simpsons was how *normal* it was back then to be a working Joe, live in a decently sized house, and be able to afford three kids, and have a stay at home wife so she can look after them (a bit trad, I know, but still, most mums I know would love to spend more time with their kids than work long hours to dump them in daycare).

    America (and the UK) probably needs a lot more families like the Simpsons.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    kyf_100 said:

    DougSeal said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DougSeal said:

    TimS said:

    One thing that I suspect is helping Harris is that Tim Walz is a familiar type to most of those who -- like me -- grew up in rural areas. We may not agree with him on policies, but we can imagine that he would be a good neighbor. And that means a lot in rural areas.

    How important are they? Somewhere around 20 percent of the vote, at a guess. George W. Bush was not hurt, politically, by living in Crawford, Texas.

    (Incidentally, the Secret Service loved that location, since it made their work far easier.)

    Yes, he’s very much a type. I don’t profess to know America and the Americans well, but I recognise Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson when I see them.
    I don’t think Flanders would agree on the good neighbours thing though
    Was there not an episode where George Bush (senior) moves in next door and becomes Homer's neighbour?
    Hah! Yes - it was a reaction to the “America needs more families like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons” comment Bush made. Good spot.

    EDIT - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Bad_Neighbors
    That's the one. Did not know it was in response to something the real Bush Senior had said.

    The thing I take out of that era Simpsons was how *normal* it was back then to be a working Joe, live in a decently sized house, and be able to afford three kids, and have a stay at home wife so she can look after them (a bit trad, I know, but still, most mums I know would love to spend more time with their kids than work long hours to dump them in daycare).

    America (and the UK) probably needs a lot more families like the Simpsons.
    I think your post explains a lot of the political developments in the US (and UK) over the last decade.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    He didn't say "likely", he said "know".

    Yes. And I note that whilst you offer the opinion in measured terms, you also believe it. You would have to be a first rate idiot not to believe it. And nobody here is a first rate idiot.
    There's a very important difference between "thinking likely" (even very likely) and "knowing".

    I know the earth is roughly cylindrical and that it orbits the Sun. It seems staggeringly unlikely that that belief could turn out to be wrong.

    I think it is highly likely that Covid was released as a result of a lab leak of some kind (and I draw the definition of lab leak fairly widely). But if we were to discover a colony of bats 70 miles from Wuhan that were all carrying Covid-19 and who appear to have lived with it for a long time, we would clearly need to adjust the probability for a lab leak rather than a zoonotic event way down. Would it surprise me if such a colony was found? I think it unlikely, but not vanishingly so.

    "Knowing" is more than even "reasonable doubt". It means, essentially, certainty. And I'm not certain, I merely think a lab leak fits the current facts better than an entirely zoonotic explanation.
    I didn't say we were 100% certain - though it's as certain as many other accepted facts in life. I said everybody here believes it. Because we all do.
    I don't believe or disbelieve. I really don't care one way or the other. Lab Leak is entirely plausible but there just isn't as far as I know the evidence right now to support it. i'm happy to call it for zoonosis because there is, to me, very compelling evidence on the early lineages as well as other evidence in that direction. I think it's reasonable to hold off judgement for now due to unknowns.

    It's all a matter of interpretation. I don't force my interpretation on anyone else but I would gently suggest those who say they know, don't know what they claim to know.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    edited August 10
    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart, sorry Richard).

    I have spent the last thirty five years plus covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213
    edited August 10

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    I’d argue in an ageing and soon to be declining population consumption is pretty important, as Japan has learned the hard way. I agree though that the limited ways we do subsidise it are not particularly economically efficient.

    (With the honourable exception of subsidised early years childcare)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    I’m not quite sure what to make of that, other than I agree with the vibe.

    My wife spent the last half decade of her career teaching in a primary school in an area of serious social deprivation. The system undoubtedly fails a lot of bright kids with potential (though some still make it through), for all manner of reasons. Resources is part of it, but it’s not a simple problem.

    The last government failed miserably on “levelling up”. How Labour do on this is one of the big tests for Starmer.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart).

    I have spent the last thirty five years covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    So something is being used and your big idea is to shut it down ???

    And are you aware that roads are also used by public transport ?

    There are other roads apart from motorways as well.

    Most journeys are less than ten miles.

    Not to mention that congestion on transport isn't helped by an expanding population - stop it expanding and you reduce future congestion.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    DougSeal said:

    The wife has decided that she doesn’t want to risk a balls up with her absentee ballot again (like Connecticut’s a swing state FFS) and she’s decided to head over in person in November and take in some fall foliage at the same time. I’ve been invited but not sure I can handle the stress. I was nervous enough about ours and that only had one winner.

    You might as well go - it won't be any less tense watching from over here.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Nigelb said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    I’m not quite sure what to make of that, other than I agree with the vibe.

    My wife spent the last half decade of her career teaching in a primary school in an area of serious social deprivation. The system undoubtedly fails a lot of bright kids with potential (though some still make it through), for all manner of reasons. Resources is part of it, but it’s not a simple problem.

    The last government failed miserably on “levelling up”. How Labour do on this is one of the big tests for Starmer.
    It's not a simple problem. Therefore what is required is a network of solutions, interacting with each other.

    The problem is that government (in this country) is trained to believe in The One Big Hammer.

    Was discussing this with someone in context of prison rehabilitation programs. Many times the following has been observed - an approach works. Then fails when scaled up.

    I suggested that we should have zillions of small initiatives, all different, all run by the enthusiasts for that approach. Filter out the ones that work - support them. But don't try and make them universal.

    What was interesting was the horror with which this was met - I was suggesting Anarchy. Rather than The One Big Program. How could this work?!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    edited August 10
    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    The problem is that we are a partial meritocracy (partial because there are plenty of people at the top through connections, inheritance or family). Now if you actually read the book that popularised the term "meritocracy" it is a warning about the problem of meritocracy, and ends in revolution, nonetheless we continually hear politicians talk of "meritocracy" as a good thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

    There is a more recent book on American meritocracy (the Meritocracy Trap) that touches similar ground, but to my mind doesn't get the core issue, but rather wants to expand the meritocracy to the middle. There's a good discussion on the ideas here:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/meritocracy-book-daniel-markovits-inequality-rich

    Ultimately the problem of Meritocracy is that it sorts people by "merit" (however judged) and their children have both the advantage genetically, and in terms of privileged access to educational and other resources. It is perhaps more just than a fuedal or aristocratic system, but nonetheless one with a lot of inequality. People deserve good lives even if they are without "merit" and that requires a conscious effort by society to redistribute national resources in their favour.

    The right (and Reform in particular) blame immigrants, and this is a story that people are generally receptive to, particularly as many immigrants tend to be more motivated to be socially upwards mobile, hence the domination of professions like mine by second and third generation immigrants. This entrenches a further barrier for the social progress of the left behind.

    The right are not interested in social mobility because it threatens their own or their children's position, hence the horror that their children might have to slum it in state schools, but Labour also often fails by focusing on welfarism rather on more permanent redistribution. There are exceptions, for example Rayners plans for a payrise to those employed in Social Care. Welfare has a part, but better is a system where unskilled and semi-skilled work pays enough for a decent life, has security of employment and is not pushed to the marginal towns and fringes of cities.

    I have no truck with looters and stone throwers, but plenty of sympathy for the unskilled and poorly educated.



  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127
    Nigelb said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    I’m not quite sure what to make of that, other than I agree with the vibe.

    My wife spent the last half decade of her career teaching in a primary school in an area of serious social deprivation. The system undoubtedly fails a lot of bright kids with potential (though some still make it through), for all manner of reasons. Resources is part of it, but it’s not a simple problem.

    The last government failed miserably on “levelling up”. How Labour do on this is one of the big tests for Starmer.
    I don't mean how it can work for 'smart kids' but how is it going to work for most people. For my mum and dad there was a social contract of "work hard and you'll get on in life" For my generation that contract was starting to fray and for the next it was "it doesn't matter how hard you work, you're going to get what we decide to give you." The anger at "they" be it government, council, social services or police is real and understandable if you are reliant on their benevolence.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart).

    I have spent the last thirty five years covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    So something is being used and your big idea is to shut it down ???

    And are you aware that roads are also used by public transport ?

    There are other roads apart from motorways as well.

    Most journeys are less than ten miles.

    Not to mention that congestion on transport isn't helped by an expanding population - stop it expanding and you reduce future congestion.
    One more lane bro.

    The issue is that while motorways increase capacity between cities, they do nothing to improve capacity in the cities themselves. For example, the Edinburgh bypass made it easier for people to commute to the business parks in the west, and for people to come in from Fife., the Lothians etc. Great!

    But now the city itself is incredibly congested and the bypass is clogged up with commuters rather than commercial traffic.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart).

    I have spent the last thirty five years covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    So something is being used and your big idea is to shut it down ???

    And are you aware that roads are also used by public transport ?

    There are other roads apart from motorways as well.

    Most journeys are less than ten miles.

    Not to mention that congestion on transport isn't helped by an expanding population - stop it expanding and you reduce future congestion.
    Yes we need all modes, and I’ve been reflecting since landing in LYS an hour ago and failing to find any connecting trains or buses through Lyon to Macon (my poor family are now having to drive over an hour to pick me up) that transport needs are poorly served when all the investment goes into one or two favoured modes.

    In France it all goes into TGV plus roads and motorways. As a result local train services are scant, and buses where you want to go are almost non existant.

    In Britain it goes successfully into multiple modes, not only in London. Not that I’m complaining, because I live there, but London shows what the rest of the country is missing. We have a dense and reliable tube network, buses that go everywhere and are all contactless payment at standard fares, roads which - while congested - are even more densely built and outside the central zone are free to use, and getting ongoing investment (witness the near completed Silvertown tunnel which to their shame my Lib Dem assembly
    members oppose). And we have an ever improving cycle lane network coupled with a recent proliferation of Lime e-Bikes for hire. And Ubers or Bolts around every corner.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780
    TimS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    I’d argue in an ageing and soon to be declining population consumption is pretty important, as Japan has learned the hard way. I agree though that the limited ways we do subsidise it are not particularly economically efficient.

    (With the honourable exception of subsidised early years childcare)
    To consume you either have to create wealth or sell the wealth which you already have.
  • DougSeal said:

    I know @Leon will mutter some shit about Musk Derangement Syndrome, but just look at the state of the stuff Musk's feeding to his followers:

    "It’s 2030 in the UK & you’re being executed for posting a meme …"

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1822254173359890461

    Ignore and he’ll find something else to fixate on. There’s a big election coming up in the US I understand.
    The thing is, I reckon that there's a method in Musk's nastiness.

    Musk wants Trump/GOP to win. He's made that clear. Whether that is because a deal has been done, or he likes their anti-woman policies (*), or some other thing, I don't know. But there is a chance that the Dems might win, and that might be bad for him if he has attacked them too much.

    So instead of fully attacking them head-on, he's attacking a newly-elected leftish government in a country with close social and historic links to the USA - us. We are an exemplar for the USA, with a left government. And we are powerless to stop him trashing our reputation.

    And make no mistake: he is harming the UK.

    (*) He thinks the US should have a billion people in it, likes people to have large families, and is rabidly anti-immigration (except for him and his buds, of course). It's hard to square these without thinking he wants women to be baby-making machines - and the GOP's current policies are heading that way.
    Good post. A lot to agree with, in there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,405
    Watching at in laws so BBC only, not Eurosport. My god, how much time have the Beeb spent showing chit chat amongst presenters ?!!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    TimS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    I’d argue in an ageing and soon to be declining population consumption is pretty important, as Japan has learned the hard way. I agree though that the limited ways we do subsidise it are not particularly economically efficient.

    (With the honourable exception of subsidised early years childcare)
    To consume you either have to create wealth or sell the wealth which you already have.
    Consumption creates wealth by putting money in the pockets of businesses that can invest it in productivity growth. A business operating hand to mouth because consumers are tight is one that will sweat its assets.

    Spend spend spend!

    It worked in the 90s. Since 2007 we’ve all stopped spending and the result has been a proto-Japan.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Norwich lose. On the eve of what promises to be a very long and difficult season for Ipswich I’ll take what I can get.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Nigelb said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    I’m not quite sure what to make of that, other than I agree with the vibe.

    My wife spent the last half decade of her career teaching in a primary school in an area of serious social deprivation. The system undoubtedly fails a lot of bright kids with potential (though some still make it through), for all manner of reasons. Resources is part of it, but it’s not a simple problem.

    The last government failed miserably on “levelling up”. How Labour do on this is one of the big tests for Starmer.
    It's not a simple problem. Therefore what is required is a network of solutions, interacting with each other.

    The problem is that government (in this country) is trained to believe in The One Big Hammer.

    Was discussing this with someone in context of prison rehabilitation programs. Many times the following has been observed - an approach works. Then fails when scaled up.

    I suggested that we should have zillions of small initiatives, all different, all run by the enthusiasts for that approach. Filter out the ones that work - support them. But don't try and make them universal.

    What was interesting was the horror with which this was met - I was suggesting Anarchy. Rather than The One Big Program. How could this work?!
    I made a similar point regarding the way Taiwan healthcare works.
    They analyse and adopt best practice each year, from hospitals which have the individual freedom to innovate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Foxy said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    The problem is that we are a partial meritocracy (partial because there are plenty of people at the top through connections, inheritance or family). Now if you actually read the book that popularised the term "meritocracy" it is a warning about the problem of meritocracy, and ends in revolution, nonetheless we continually hear politicians talk of "meritocracy" as a good thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

    There is a more recent book on American meritocracy (the Meritocracy Trap) that touches similar ground, but to my mind doesn't get the core issue, but rather wants to expand the meritocracy to the middle. There's a good discussion on the ideas here:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/meritocracy-book-daniel-markovits-inequality-rich

    Ultimately the problem of Meritocracy is that it sorts people by "merit" (however judged) and their children have both the advantage genetically, and in terms of privileged access to educational and other resources. It is perhaps more just than a fuedal or aristocratic system, but nonetheless one with a lot of inequality. People deserve good lives even if they are without "merit" and that requires a conscious effort by society to redistribute national resources in their favour.

    The right (and Reform in particular) blame immigrants, and this is a story that people are generally receptive to, particularly as many immigrants tend to be more motivated to be socially upwards mobile, hence the domination of professions like mine by second and third generation immigrants. This entrenches a further barrier for the social progress of the left behind.

    The right are not interested in social mobility because it threatens their own or their children's position, hence the horror that their children might have to slum it in state schools, but Labour also often fails by focusing on welfarism rather on more permanent redistribution. There are exceptions, for example Rayners plans for a payrise to those employed in Social Care. Welfare has a part, but better is a system where unskilled and semi-skilled work pays enough for a decent life, has security of employment and is not pushed to the marginal towns and fringes of cities.

    I have no truck with looters and stone throwers, but plenty of sympathy for the unskilled and poorly educated.



    There's a variant of the meritocracy - defended from the Left.

    In Hampstead, for example, there is a group who are oh so proud that their children attend the local school. Good luck getting into that school unless you happen to live in a house that costs more than a million. There aren't any for miles. Though the servants of the really rich live in, so their children get to go. So there's that.

    You also see in media and arts a ferocious system of cronyism - starter jobs are now paid and mostly go to the scions of other families In The Thing.

    Ironically, in the City, such practises have largely been banned. After a period of degree credentialism (couldn't get a job sorting post in a bank without a degree) - apprenticeships are coming in.

    I caused an upset at a recent meeting on inclusion though. I pointed out the gaps in the proudly displayed slide of about 20 social and ethnic groups that inclusion team had found in the bank....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    edited August 10
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    I’m not quite sure what to make of that, other than I agree with the vibe.

    My wife spent the last half decade of her career teaching in a primary school in an area of serious social deprivation. The system undoubtedly fails a lot of bright kids with potential (though some still make it through), for all manner of reasons. Resources is part of it, but it’s not a simple problem.

    The last government failed miserably on “levelling up”. How Labour do on this is one of the big tests for Starmer.
    It's not a simple problem. Therefore what is required is a network of solutions, interacting with each other.

    The problem is that government (in this country) is trained to believe in The One Big Hammer.

    Was discussing this with someone in context of prison rehabilitation programs. Many times the following has been observed - an approach works. Then fails when scaled up.

    I suggested that we should have zillions of small initiatives, all different, all run by the enthusiasts for that approach. Filter out the ones that work - support them. But don't try and make them universal.

    What was interesting was the horror with which this was met - I was suggesting Anarchy. Rather than The One Big Program. How could this work?!
    I made a similar point regarding the way Taiwan healthcare works.
    They analyse and adopt best practice each year, from hospitals which have the individual freedom to innovate.
    Almost as if we *aren't* Mass Man. Or, indeed, Maas Man either.

    I'll get my coat. It's the one with the Aleph in the pocket.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    As I understand it, Betfair is impossible to access for most customers in the US, therefore doesn't accurately reflect US sentiments.

    While I get that the polls have narrowed a great deal and favour Kamala Harris, plus all the momentum is with her, plus she has made a way better pick for VP than Trump... I'm still wary of how much the Betfair odds are wishcasting on the part of non-US punters who just don't understand Trump's appeal as his politics is outside of the Overton Window for most of us over here. Just feels like there's an obvious bias showing up in the available odds which, as you say, may make Trump value at these prices.

    PredictIt (which is US) has moved even further towards Harris than Betfair has:

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/7456/Who-will-win-the-2024-US-presidential-election
    Very interesting, thanks. Makes me less inclined to put a bet on at the current available odds.

    My bias is remembering 2016 when literally everyone said Trump couldn't win. I had him at 50/1, but cashed out after the first debate at 5/1 because *I simply couldn't believe* America would elect the man after that performance. But that was my own bias showing. Now I'm probably over-correcting a bit, going *I absolutely can believe* American voters could elect him again despite my own disbelief. Good to see what a US market actually thinks.
    The big money is always made on the night, when the market is slow to respond to new information.
    Good point.
    I got much about the last Presidential wrong, but salvaged a very decent profit overall thanks to staying up through the night.
    That's effectively my strategy this year.

    I've blown the long game, so may as well play the short game.
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 435
    edited August 10
    I assume the BBC have consent to publish this and hope I'm not offending anyone by reposting, here;

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce80x0jn44jo

    ---

    On Monday 29 July, our world was shattered by the loss of our precious daughter, Bebe.

    Along with two other beautiful souls, Elsie and Alice, she was taken from us in an unimaginable act of violence that has left our hearts broken beyond repair.

    Our beloved Bebe, only six years old, was full of joy, light, and love, and she will always remain in our hearts as the sweet, kind, and spirited girl we adore.

    The outpouring of love and support from our community and beyond has been a source of incredible comfort during this unimaginably difficult time.

    From the pink lights illuminating Sefton and Liverpool, to the pink bows, flowers, balloons, cards, and candles left in her memory, we have been overwhelmed by the kindness and compassion shown to our family.

    The response from Southport, the whole of Liverpool, and even further afield has deeply touched our hearts, and we are so grateful to everyone who has reached out to us.

    We want to acknowledge our older daughter, Genie, who witnessed the attack and managed to escape.

    She has shown such incredible strength and courage, and we are so proud of her. Her resilience is a testament to the love and bond she shared with her little sister, and we will continue to support her as we navigate this painful journey together as a family.

    Our thoughts are also with everyone else involved in this tragedy and all those who were injured.
    We hope that they find strength and healing in the days ahead.

    To the children who witnessed this terrible event, we send our love and hope that they too can begin to heal, surrounded by the care and support of those who love them.

    To the emergency services, who acted with such care and professionalism on that terrible day: thank you.

    Your support has continued as you have looked after our family with compassion and dedication, and we will forever be grateful for the way you have helped us through this harrowing time.

    To our community, friends, and strangers who have shown us such love: Thank you.

    Your messages, your tributes, and your presence have meant the world to us and have helped us find some solace in our grief.

    We are also thinking of Elsie and Alice's families, who are sharing in this unimaginable loss, and we hold them close in our hearts.

    Our hearts are broken, but we find some comfort in knowing that Bebe was so deeply loved by all who knew her.

    She will forever be our shimmering star, and we will carry her with us in everything we do.
    With love and gratitude,

    Lauren, Ben, and Genie.

    ---
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    DM_Andy said:

    Nigelb said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    I’m not quite sure what to make of that, other than I agree with the vibe.

    My wife spent the last half decade of her career teaching in a primary school in an area of serious social deprivation. The system undoubtedly fails a lot of bright kids with potential (though some still make it through), for all manner of reasons. Resources is part of it, but it’s not a simple problem.

    The last government failed miserably on “levelling up”. How Labour do on this is one of the big tests for Starmer.
    I don't mean how it can work for 'smart kids' but how is it going to work for most people. For my mum and dad there was a social contract of "work hard and you'll get on in life" For my generation that contract was starting to fray and for the next it was "it doesn't matter how hard you work, you're going to get what we decide to give you." The anger at "they" be it government, council, social services or police is real and understandable if you are reliant on their benevolence.

    I’m not disagreeing with you.
    “Levelling up” isn’t confined to the high achievers. That is rather where you most notice the wasted potential.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807
    edited August 10
    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    There is nobody on this forum who does not believe it was leaked from the lab. Nobody. There are people who believe it, and people who believe it's their duty to argue against it.

    Wait: you believe all the posters who suggest zoonotic origins actually know it came from the lab and are just arguing against it because they believe it is their duty to keep this untruth alive?

    That is truly bonkers.

    I think a lab leak is the most likely hypothesis, because it is an awfully big coincidence that Covid appeared in the same city as the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    But SARS and MERS and AIDS and a bunch of other diseases made the animal-to-man jump without going via a lab. It's possible, if unlikely, that a decade from now, we discover a cave of bats 60 miles from Wuhan where CV19 is commonly carried; in which case, we'll need to revisit this.

    Because absent a direct admission from someone at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, that's where we are: there's strong circumstantial evidence for it being a lab leak, but there's no smoking gun.

    So your contention is bizarre. Do you really assume that your fellow men just go around lying to each other all the time because...? Do you go around lying to people all the time just because...? If not, why do you assume that other people do?
    I partly agree with @Luckyguy1983

    Deep down we all know it is highly likely it came from the lab. But for some it is an article of faith that
    it didn’t. And faith is the best metaphor here
    He didn't say "likely", he said "know".

    Yes. And I note that whilst you offer the opinion in measured terms, you also believe it. You would have to be a first rate idiot not to believe it. And nobody here is a first rate idiot.
    There's a very important difference between "thinking likely" (even very likely) and "knowing".

    I know the earth is roughly cylindrical and that it orbits the Sun. It seems staggeringly unlikely that that belief could turn out to be wrong.

    I think it is highly likely that Covid was released as a result of a lab leak of some kind (and I draw the definition of lab leak fairly widely). But if we were to discover a colony of bats 70 miles from Wuhan that were all carrying Covid-19 and who appear to have lived with it for a long time, we would clearly need to adjust the probability for a lab leak rather than a zoonotic event way down. Would it surprise me if such a colony was found? I think it unlikely, but not vanishingly so.

    "Knowing" is more than even "reasonable doubt". It means, essentially, certainty. And I'm not certain, I merely think a lab leak fits the current facts better than an entirely zoonotic explanation.
    I didn't say we were 100% certain - though it's as certain as many other accepted facts in life. I said everybody here believes it. Because we all do.
    I don't believe or disbelieve. I really don't care one way or the other. Lab Leak is entirely plausible but there just isn't as far as I know the evidence right now to support it. i'm happy to call it for zoonosis because there is, to me, very compelling evidence on the early lineages as well as other evidence in that direction. I think it's reasonable to hold off judgement for now due to unknowns.

    It's all a matter of interpretation. I don't force my interpretation on anyone else but I would gently suggest those who say they know, don't know what they claim to know.
    Nothing in life is entirely certain, but the human brain takes certain things for granted. People who have been told that there are two opposing theories explaining the origin of Covid-19, leaking from a lab 300m away from the first outbreak, which was studying how to make bat viruses deadlier and more transmissible, or an accident of evolution in a wet market, coincidentally doing exactly the same work as the lab, in a freak accident. We all know which one we believe. There are none of us on here stupid enough to believe the second explanation. It's a silly pretence.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,780
    edited August 10
    Eabhal said:

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart).

    I have spent the last thirty five years covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    So something is being used and your big idea is to shut it down ???

    And are you aware that roads are also used by public transport ?

    There are other roads apart from motorways as well.

    Most journeys are less than ten miles.

    Not to mention that congestion on transport isn't helped by an expanding population - stop it expanding and you reduce future congestion.
    One more lane bro.

    The issue is that while motorways increase capacity between cities, they do nothing to improve capacity in the cities themselves. For example, the Edinburgh bypass made it easier for people to commute to the business parks in the west, and for people to come in from Fife., the Lothians etc. Great!

    But now the city itself is incredibly congested and the bypass is clogged up with commuters rather than commercial traffic.
    For fifty years my grandad walked to his workplace, walked to his local pub, walked to his local shop, walked to see his relatives. It was a limited life.

    How many people can or want to live like that now ?

    This is the era of commuters - for work, for shopping, for education, for entertainment, for family.

    One thing I would suggest would reduce congestion is more flexible hours - working from home is an aspect of this.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart, sorry Richard).

    I have spent the last thirty five years plus covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    Good evening

    I am very pleased I am unlikely to venture much on our gridlocked motorway networks and found it very amusing when my daughter phoned last week to say she was at a full stop on the M5, so much so people were getting out picnic blankets and a white van man had opened the rear door of his van and shut himself inside

    On public transport, we decided to do the 'quarryman' narrow gauge steam hauled journey from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog and return last week and left our car at Llandudno Station (10 hours for £2.50) and took the train to Blaenau and it was fabulous to sit back and enjoy the wonderful North Wales scenery on a lovely summers day and not drive for once
    Interesting use of “public transport” to describe the narrow gauge railway.

    Of course it’s public transport, as are cable cars in the alps, or aeroplanes. But we tend to think of public transport as being stuff people take to get to and from the mundane daily grind.

    Plenty of people proudly state they don’t use public transport yet spend half their lives in airports.

    Where do we draw the line? I’d say between scheduled and charter services. So for example Brittany Ferries to Santander is public transport, but a cruise around the med isn’t.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart).

    I have spent the last thirty five years covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    So something is being used and your big idea is to shut it down ???

    And are you aware that roads are also used by public transport ?

    There are other roads apart from motorways as well.

    Most journeys are less than ten miles.

    Not to mention that congestion on transport isn't helped by an expanding population - stop it expanding and you reduce future congestion.
    I am not suggesting targeted road building is stopped, but added value must be considered. I would be more than happy to see the M4 divert south of Newport but more roads encourage more traffic. You could build half a dozen concentric motorways around London and in ten years they would be full. Rail for passengers and freight should be the focus. By passes are so 1970s and if you want local retail businesses to struggle, stick a by pass around a town so no one stops.

    If journeys are less than ten miles take the bus or an electric bike!

    I like the way you have craftily linked a gridlocked road network with immigration. Nice trick!

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,956
    I remember one of your visitors from Moscow tried this line a while back.

    JD Vance tells Steve Bannon today that people in Washington want to cut Social Security benefits to then give that money to Ukraine so Zelensky’s ministers can buy yachts.

    https://x.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1734288605751734631
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 726
    Foxy said:

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    The problem is that we are a partial meritocracy (partial because there are plenty of people at the top through connections, inheritance or family). Now if you actually read the book that popularised the term "meritocracy" it is a warning about the problem of meritocracy, and ends in revolution, nonetheless we continually hear politicians talk of "meritocracy" as a good thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

    There is a more recent book on American meritocracy (the Meritocracy Trap) that touches similar ground, but to my mind doesn't get the core issue, but rather wants to expand the meritocracy to the middle. There's a good discussion on the ideas here:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/10/24/20919030/meritocracy-book-daniel-markovits-inequality-rich

    Ultimately the problem of Meritocracy is that it sorts people by "merit" (however judged) and their children have both the advantage genetically, and in terms of privileged access to educational and other resources. It is perhaps more just than a fuedal or aristocratic system, but nonetheless one with a lot of inequality. People deserve good lives even if they are without "merit" and that requires a conscious effort by society to redistribute national resources in their favour.

    The right (and Reform in particular) blame immigrants, and this is a story that people are generally receptive to, particularly as many immigrants tend to be more motivated to be socially upwards mobile, hence the domination of professions like mine by second and third generation immigrants. This entrenches a further barrier for the social progress of the left behind.

    The right are not interested in social mobility because it threatens their own or their children's position, hence the horror that their children might have to slum it in state schools, but Labour also often fails by focusing on welfarism rather on more permanent redistribution. There are exceptions, for example Rayners plans for a payrise to those employed in Social Care. Welfare has a part, but better is a system where unskilled and semi-skilled work pays enough for a decent life, has security of employment and is not pushed to the marginal towns and fringes of cities.

    I have no truck with looters and stone throwers, but plenty of sympathy for the unskilled and poorly educated.



    Using the old cliche of the lottery of life, the problem is that our postindustrial society has scrapped all of the smaller prizes and concentrated the pay outs into a smaller range of big jackpots. It used to be if your circumstances, intelligence, willpower or whatever (not here to make the argument as to which is more important) weren't sufficient to win you the big prize of a white collar professional job then at least there were other jobs you could get that would give you security and a decent living. What are today's equivalent of Starmer pere's toolmaking or panel fitting in a car factory?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    TimS said:

    ...

    DM_Andy said:

    FPT: I had gone off to take a walk. This is a direct response to @Andy_JS so I hope he gets to see it.

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DM_Andy said:

    One good thing about the Farage Riots is that conservative commentators have suddenly noticed that there's an underclass of around 10%-15% who feel cut off from the rest of society. I'm not sure how they didn't notice that before but that's besides the point.

    Given a bipartisan inclination to heal this divide in our society, what could this Parliament do to help this 10%-15% have a stake in our country again? Particularly asking PB_Tories here, what could Labour do that you would support them with?

    Labour could start by not looking down their nose at them.
    Sigh
    You're doing it yourself now.
    I know that the tone of this forum can be snarkily partisan and I'm not saying that Labour are perfect but I asked a serious question and you just blew right past it to make a cheap partisan jibe and a personal one that really annoyed me.

    You've got no way of knowing this but I can't look down on these people because I feel like I'm part of them or at least I could have been. I grew up on the Lordshill and then the Freshfield estates in Southampton. They weren't bad places to grow up in, Lordshill was brand new and modern with lots of kids the same age as me, Freshfield was a prewar estate, smaller with a real mix of social types and ages. We weren't the poorest, I knew plenty of kids in tougher circumstances but I'm sure that we were poorer than most people on this forum.

    I was lucky that I was noticeably quicker at school (I wouldn't say brighter but I would pick new things up more easily) which made me a project for some of my school teachers. I passed my exam to get a full scholarship to the local fee-paying school from age 11 but turned it down for preferring to stay with my friends and knowing my parents would struggle to pay for the PE kit. They would say things like "When you go to university" when I genuinely hadn't considered it. If I were a school child now I think I would consider going to university to be a complete fantasy but I got in on the very tail end of student grants with a little bit of student loan top up that I paid off very quickly.

    If I had been born 25-30 years later than there is no way I would have climbed any rungs of the ladder because it looks like it's not there anymore. Who knows, I might be like half my Facebook feed and be really angry right now. Don't accuse me of not caring when I very much care.

    Something Tim Montgomerie said stuck with me (it's from a Times Radio interview on Wednesday but I only caught it this morning). He said something like "we are a rich enough society to park these people on the edge of society, to pay their welfare, to police them and to keep them at bay but that's not compassion."

    I think that's wrong, we've never been rich enough to waste the potential of people just because they were born to a poorer section of society, that's what Britain's always done except for the brief postwar period that allowed that little bit of social mobility.

    So I ask again, if we all want this underclass to be reconnected to the rest of society, what do we do with all party support?

    (Edit because it wasn't clear where Tim's thoughts stopped and mine started)
    Build houses, push people back into the workforce, improve education and control immigration.
    Affordable housing, training opportunities, invest in production instead of subsidising consumption, build roads not railways.
    Building roads is a fools errands (sorry Bart).

    I have spent the last thirty five years covering a million and a half miles on Britain's motorways. I remember my excitement at the opening of the M25, I would no longer need to run the gauntlet of the North and South circs. Fantastic! But it's not fantastic and hasn't been for at least 25 years. I spend hours each week stationary on the M42, the M4, M6, M1, and if there is an accident on the M5 South of Weston Super Mare and one might ad well go back home.

    Travelling on the motorway network is a nightmare and every year it gets worse. There are far too many cars and trucks on our roads, and don't get me started on Smart Motorways.

    The future is public transport and canning HS2 was dereliction of duty.
    So something is being used and your big idea is to shut it down ???

    And are you aware that roads are also used by public transport ?

    There are other roads apart from motorways as well.

    Most journeys are less than ten miles.

    Not to mention that congestion on transport isn't helped by an expanding population - stop it expanding and you reduce future congestion.
    Yes we need all modes, and I’ve been reflecting since landing in LYS an hour ago and failing to find any connecting trains or buses through Lyon to Macon (my poor family are now having to drive over an hour to pick me up) that transport needs are poorly served when all the investment goes into one or two favoured modes.

    In France it all goes into TGV plus roads and motorways. As a result local train services are scant, and buses where you want to go are almost non existant.

    In Britain it goes successfully into multiple modes, not only in London. Not that I’m complaining, because I live there, but London shows what the rest of the country is missing. We have a dense and reliable tube network, buses that go everywhere and are all contactless payment at standard fares, roads which - while congested - are even more densely built and outside the central zone are free to use, and getting ongoing investment (witness the near completed Silvertown tunnel which to their shame my Lib Dem assembly
    members oppose). And we have an ever improving cycle lane network coupled with a recent proliferation of Lime e-Bikes for hire. And Ubers or Bolts around every corner.
    In Paris, they have railway gardens - https://www.justgoplacesblog.com/a-tale-of-two-city-gardens/#google_vignette

    In London, we have trains.
This discussion has been closed.