Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
If he really is 17 then we won't even get to see his face or hear his name...
Harris campaign hits Trump again over debate ‘backtrack’
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4798367-harris-campaign-trump-debate/ … Campaign communications director Michael Tyler said, in a statement first shared with The Hill, that Harris will be at ABC’s Sept. 10 debate — to which Trump and President Biden had both previously agreed — regardless of the former president’s attendance. “As Vice President Harris said last week, the American people deserve to hear from the two candidates running for the highest office in the land and she will do that at September’s ABC debate,” Tyler said. “If Donald Trump and his team are saying anything other than ‘we’ll see you there,’ — and it appears that they are — it’s a convenient, but expected backtrack from Team Trump. Vice President Harris will be there on September 10th — we’ll see if Trump shows.”..
Which one of our PB pungent pundits was punditing a week or so ago, that it was Kamala Harris who did NOT want to debate Donald Trump?
Yet another moronic MAGA-maniac talking point bites the dust!
This far, Harris has run a remarkably accomplished campaign - which I have to admit I didn’t fully expect. She’s certainly upped her game a lot since the 2020 primary contest.
As I have now (for me) a fair amount of cash on the contest, I’m more than a bit concerned she’s going to drop a huge clanger at some point…
There is a clear issue here: either the spending plans in Estimates signed off by Senior Civil Servants and presented to Parliament are incorrect, or the document the Chancellor has produced to the House today is incorrect.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. If Reeves is right about the current state of finances, and I assume she is, then I think Hunt is right then surely some civil servants are in big trouble also?
Responsibility of chief accounting officer was a very big deal for perm secs when I was in govt.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
That would be a child that the government thinks should have the vote.
Well indeed. But I don't.
However. Killing anyone doesn't make it better.
For what it's worth, I agree. Not worth the hassle even if some do deserve it.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
Society gains by not having the death penalty.
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
If he really is 17 then we won't even get to see his face or hear his name...
Dare we hope that we get the '"... independent review" of the triple lock' next then?
I knew you and @MaxPB would be celebrating the fuel allowance being axed for most pensioners as you hate old people! 😂
Not true, I'd increase the state pension by 50% overnight and pay for it with a special rate of tax on high pension incomes. Target the public sector fatcats retiring on £50k-80k DB pensions.
What about private sector fatcats retiring on £50k-80k DC pensions?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
Society gains by not having the death penalty.
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
The argument of setting a good example is probably the weakest one you could make against the death penalty.
It could also apply to any other form of punishment. Does having prisons make people think it's ok to keep people locked up?
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
And yet here we are without the death penalty and two dead children.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
What total rot. I remember being 15 and I was perfectly capable of understanding right from wrong and the expectations a civilised society had of me.
There is a clear issue here: either the spending plans in Estimates signed off by Senior Civil Servants and presented to Parliament are incorrect, or the document the Chancellor has produced to the House today is incorrect.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. If Reeves is right about the current state of finances, and I assume she is, then I think Hunt is right then surely some civil servants are in big trouble also?
Responsibility of chief accounting officer was a very big deal for perm secs when I was in govt.
OBR seems to think they were misinformed by treasury?
Is the other possibility that it's Internal Tory Games?
F'r example, one big dollop of the overspend seems to have been on asylum, and it rather looks like nobody was even keeping track of it. Maybe Hunt didn't know about it because nobody told him. So why was that?
Dare we hope that we get the '"... independent review" of the triple lock' next then?
I knew you and @MaxPB would be celebrating the fuel allowance being axed for most pensioners as you hate old people! 😂
Not true, I'd increase the state pension by 50% overnight and pay for it with a special rate of tax on high pension incomes. Target the public sector fatcats retiring on £50k-80k DB pensions.
What about private sector fatcats retiring on £50k-80k DC pensions?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
The argument of setting a good example is probably the weakest one you could make against the death penalty.
It could also apply to any other form of punishment. Does having prisons make people think it's ok to keep people locked up?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
Yes, the country where a 16 year old multiple murderer isn't walking around on the streets.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
And yet here we are without the death penalty and two dead children.
And societies with the death penalty have dead children too. The US plenty more.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
But you wouldn't apply the death penalty to a 17 year old I assume?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
What total rot. I remember being 15 and I was perfectly capable of understanding right from wrong and the expectations a civilised society had of me.
I’m sorry to break the news to you that everyone may not be like you, either by nature or nurture.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
The argument of setting a good example is probably the weakest one you could make against the death penalty.
It could also apply to any other form of punishment. Does having prisons make people think it's ok to keep people locked up?
OK. It's morally wrong. Is that better?
Is it not morally wrong to deprive people of their liberty?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
Society gains by not having the death penalty.
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
As I said, rare instance.
How do you draw the line such that it catches your rare instances, while never under any circumstances executing an innocent in a miscarriage of justice?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
Well possibly. But I don't think the sole determinant of how civilised a country is is how it treats people who commit the worst crimes.
"Marc Bloch: a warning from Europe’s past According to Emmanuel Macron, the best analysis of the dangers facing the continent today comes from a French historian who was murdered by the Nazis in 1944. By John Gray"
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
The argument of setting a good example is probably the weakest one you could make against the death penalty.
It could also apply to any other form of punishment. Does having prisons make people think it's ok to keep people locked up?
OK. It's morally wrong. Is that better?
Is it not morally wrong to deprive people of their liberty?
Good question. What exactly does that mean? I mean, we're all deprived of our liberty every day. Do you mean is it wrong to lock people up in jail?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
What total rot. I remember being 15 and I was perfectly capable of understanding right from wrong and the expectations a civilised society had of me.
I’m sorry to break the news to you that everyone may not be like you, either by nature or nurture.
Yes, some people have criminal intent, simple as that. Teenagers are well old enough to have criminal intent, rather than simply not understanding that society places a prohibition on violence (including murder).
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
Society gains by not having the death penalty.
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
As I said, rare instance.
How do you draw the line such that it catches your rare instances, while never under any circumstances executing an innocent in a miscarriage of justice?
I don't know. Which is why I don't support the death penalty being brought back, even for these cases. We just have to rely on the prison system to do the job and finish this guy off.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
The CPS were boasting recently in one of their social media posts about prosecuting a pair of 12 year olds for murder. The usual lines stuck out... 'thoughts are with the victim', 'sending a clear message', etc
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
I'm fine with taking the view that children's brains aren't developed etc., but I think a kid that's done that needs to be detained in some sort of facility as happened with the Bulger killers. And then, hopefully, they can have a normal adult life at some point (I think that has actually been the case with one of the Bulger killers).
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
Society gains by not having the death penalty.
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
As I said, rare instance.
How do you draw the line such that it catches your rare instances, while never under any circumstances executing an innocent in a miscarriage of justice?
I don't know. Which is why I don't support the death penalty being brought back, even for these cases. We just have to rely on the prison system to do the job and finish this guy off.
That's weak. You want someone else to get their hands dirty so that you don't have to shoulder any share of the responsibility.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
Yep. Simply declaring a murderer to be a "psychopath", therefore worthy of death, is a slippery slope. TV doctor Robert Winston is a self confessed one.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I think you'll find that's communism.
If you achieve the same thing via a very expensive series of consultancies, outsourcing, Capita/etc, and a byzantine set of rules that feck over the poor in particular, then it's fine. If anything, to be encouraged.
Dare we hope that we get the '"... independent review" of the triple lock' next then?
I knew you and @MaxPB would be celebrating the fuel allowance being axed for most pensioners as you hate old people! 😂
Not true, I'd increase the state pension by 50% overnight and pay for it with a special rate of tax on high pension incomes. Target the public sector fatcats retiring on £50k-80k DB pensions.
What about private sector fatcats retiring on £50k-80k DC pensions?
far less of them
Yes, most will have diversified into property or direct/fund stock market investments rather than just the DC pension.
See, we have this way of taxing rich old people, called income tax and we could also apply the national insurance tax too.
Targetting people for what was part of their employment package is bizarre, unless we're also going to heavily tax any assets people with high income managed to accumulate (I'd not be against a wealth tax FWIW).
With the death penalty, I am coming to the view that it is just something that we have to do; it isn't what I want, but it is needed in order to reset the circuit on criminal justice policy. At the moment we have created a system of very long and whole life jail sentences because there is an idea that some prisoners don't have any possibility of redemption or rehabilitation. But these jail sentences (ie where there is no hope of progress through the system and no chance of release) are actually a form of torture. People need to face up to the question whether these people should instead be executed rather than just kept away forever. What purpose is keeping them alive serving?
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
Yep. Simply declaring a murderer to be a "psychopath", therefore worthy of death, is a slippery slope. TV doctor Robert Winston is a self confessed one.
One could even think of certain recent PMs with similar traits...maybe some Presidents too
"Marc Bloch: a warning from Europe’s past According to Emmanuel Macron, the best analysis of the dangers facing the continent today comes from a French historian who was murdered by the Nazis in 1944. By John Gray"
Is this the same Macron who called a last-minute election which resulted in France having no government? If so, I'd treat his opinions with a little suspicion.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
trouble is society is so dumb it labels anyone who is a bit ruthless in their job as a psychopath and many people think they are Norman Bates - Its ridiculous and juvenile the way we label perfectly law abiding people these days - CEO's are of course going to be competitive and selfish to some degree -
With the death penalty, I am coming to the view that it is just something that we have to do; it isn't what I want, but it is needed in order to reset the circuit on criminal justice policy. At the moment we have created a system of very long and whole life jail sentences because there is an idea that some prisoners don't have any possibility of redemption or rehabilitation. But these jail sentences (ie where there is no hope of progress through the system and no chance of release) are actually a form of torture. People need to face up to the question whether these people should instead be executed rather than just kept away forever. What purpose is keeping them alive serving?
Study would be one useful one. However, endless True Crime interviews for documentaries and podcasts seems to be the current fashion.
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Quite so. And as for all these 'public sector fatcats' on pensions of £50-80k a year, referenced earlier, I'd love to know how many of them there are - not many, I'd guess. I was a pretty highly paid civil servant, and my pension is nowhere near that sort of amount - indeed, it's well below average earnings.
There's a lot of myths around public sector pensions, centred around a pretty small number of very senior staff who happen to have large pensions. The reality is much more mundane for most of us - not that I'm complaining, I have a decent pension.
With the death penalty, I am coming to the view that it is just something that we have to do; it isn't what I want, but it is needed in order to reset the circuit on criminal justice policy. At the moment we have created a system of very long and whole life jail sentences because there is an idea that some prisoners don't have any possibility of redemption or rehabilitation. But these jail sentences (ie where there is no hope of progress through the system and no chance of release) are actually a form of torture. People need to face up to the question whether these people should instead be executed rather than just kept away forever. What purpose is keeping them alive serving?
The purpose is that if it turns out with new evidence decades later that they were actually innocent they can be released.
If you find out decades after executing someone that they were innocent, then you can't bring them back from the dead.
I'm entirely OK with saying to all perpetrators of crimes like today's that you will spend the rest of your life behind bars and we will never under any circumstances release you, unless somehow we discover we've got the wrong guy and you're actually innocent.
If someone behind bars wants to take their own life, they should be able to (which I extend to general public too), but the state should never do it.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
If he really is 17 then we won't even get to see his face or hear his name...
That protection expires once he's 18, or the judge can lift it sooner.
With the death penalty, I am coming to the view that it is just something that we have to do; it isn't what I want, but it is needed in order to reset the circuit on criminal justice policy. At the moment we have created a system of very long and whole life jail sentences because there is an idea that some prisoners don't have any possibility of redemption or rehabilitation. But these jail sentences (ie where there is no hope of progress through the system and no chance of release) are actually a form of torture. People need to face up to the question whether these people should instead be executed rather than just kept away forever. What purpose is keeping them alive serving?
Have you ever watched Nigel Kneale's "Year of the Sex Olympics"? (It's not how it sounds, if you haven't) I sometimes think (or worry) that there's a halfway house between life in jail and reality TV.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
There are a heck of a lot of psychopaths around. Many contribute a great deal to society. Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient. Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
trouble is society is so dumb it labels anyone who is a bit ruthless in their job as a psychopath and many people think they are Norman Bates - Its ridiculous and juvenile the way we label perfectly law abiding people these days - CEO's are of course going to be competitive and selfish to some degree -
No. Psychopath is a perfectly respectable clinical definition. Society is actually so dumb that they think they are just going to eviscerate people, so should be killed. Psychopath Pride Day is needed.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
At 17 if a person doesn't know not to murder children and babies then their moral compass will never be correct. He is a psychopath and I don't see what society gains by having him locked up for 60+ years.
Society gains by not having the death penalty.
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
As I said, rare instance.
How do you draw the line such that it catches your rare instances, while never under any circumstances executing an innocent in a miscarriage of justice?
I don't know. Which is why I don't support the death penalty being brought back, even for these cases. We just have to rely on the prison system to do the job and finish this guy off.
That's weak. You want someone else to get their hands dirty so that you don't have to shoulder any share of the responsibility.
It is also contradictory. Against the death penalty due to the burden of proof - but in favour of extra judicial murders informally facilitated by the state.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
A far better thing. Particularly for the signals it sends.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
I think its rather worrying you think like that personally
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
TBF have you (well I think you have and actually you may be able to help my wife change careers given where you live and what I think you do, don't take anything I have said against her ) looked at a public sector job application form? If I were applying for one then nowadays I'd use an LLM but previously would just have been "nah".
This isn't an explanation of anything really. I just think those forms are a fecking joke.
If Jeremy Hunt wanted to throw his hat in the ring for Con leadership, I don't think he's done his chances any harm at all with his response to Reeves statement.
If not, the new leader should keep him on as shadow Chancellor.
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
TBF have you (well I think you have and actually you may be able to help my wife change careers given where you live and what I think you do, don't take anything I have said against her ) looked at a public sector job application form? If I were applying for one then nowadays I'd use an LLM but previously would just have been "nah".
This isn't an explanation of anything really. I just think those forms are a fecking joke.
They are bullshit. And references taken up before interview. My arse.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
I think its rather worrying you think like that personally
Worrying how? I'm not the home secretary!
Really think about what a 15 year sentence would mean to you. It's a horrific prospect really. It's an interesting thought experiment - what would you do if you got a 15 year sentence that you wouldn't do if you got a 20 year one? Assume it's a violation of the gambling act and we're just talking size
If Jeremy Hunt wanted to throw his hat in the ring for Con leadership, I don't think he's done his chances any harm at all with his response to Reeves statement.
If not, the new leader should keep him on as shadow Chancellor.
Didn't the deadline close today? Today's performance certainly gets him a seat in the Lords (and a few boardrooms) when he stands down mind you.
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Quite so. And as for all these 'public sector fatcats' on pensions of £50-80k a year, referenced earlier, I'd love to know how many of them there are - not many, I'd guess. I was a pretty highly paid civil servant, and my pension is nowhere near that sort of amount - indeed, it's well below average earnings.
There's a lot of myths around public sector pensions, centred around a pretty small number of very senior staff who happen to have large pensions. The reality is much more mundane for most of us - not that I'm complaining, I have a decent pension.
I find it frustrating that people think Civil Servants are all Sir Humphrey types with massive pensions. The vast majority of Civil Servants are on fairly low salaries answering calls or processing passport applications etc.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
If Jeremy Hunt wanted to throw his hat in the ring for Con leadership, I don't think he's done his chances any harm at all with his response to Reeves statement.
If not, the new leader should keep him on as shadow Chancellor.
Didn't the deadline close today? Today's performance certainly gets him a seat in the Lords (and a few boardrooms) when he stands down mind you.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Quite so. And as for all these 'public sector fatcats' on pensions of £50-80k a year, referenced earlier, I'd love to know how many of them there are - not many, I'd guess. I was a pretty highly paid civil servant, and my pension is nowhere near that sort of amount - indeed, it's well below average earnings.
There's a lot of myths around public sector pensions, centred around a pretty small number of very senior staff who happen to have large pensions. The reality is much more mundane for most of us - not that I'm complaining, I have a decent pension.
I find it frustrating that people think Civil Servants are all Sir Humphrey types with massive pensions. The vast majority of Civil Servants are on fairly low salaries answering calls or processing passport applications etc.
But they all get £100k a year, gold plated, index-linked pensions though, right? .... right?
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
60 years is stupid for murder, completely agreed, it should be life to mean whole life for anyone who is guilty, without a possibility of parole.
60 years could mean released at 77 and potentially getting a quarter of a century of liberty after that. That is stupid I agree.
Life should mean until you die behind bars. Unless for some reason it is revealed to be a miscarriage of justice at which point we can release you, but we can't unexecute you.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
60 years is stupid for murder, completely agreed, it should be life to mean whole life for anyone who is guilty, without a possibility of parole.
60 years could mean released at 77 and potentially getting a quarter of a century of liberty after that. That is stupid I agree.
Life should mean until you die behind bars. Unless for some reason it is revealed to be a miscarriage of justice at which point we can release you, but we can't unexecute you.
What are you achieving locking someone up that long? The only argument that makes sense to me (in a civilised society; in less civilised ones it might be necessary to prevent vigilantism) is public protection and that is clearly not necessary with many murderers.
(Google says five traditional purposes of punishment are deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution if you want a cheat sheet )
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Quite so. And as for all these 'public sector fatcats' on pensions of £50-80k a year, referenced earlier, I'd love to know how many of them there are - not many, I'd guess. I was a pretty highly paid civil servant, and my pension is nowhere near that sort of amount - indeed, it's well below average earnings.
There's a lot of myths around public sector pensions, centred around a pretty small number of very senior staff who happen to have large pensions. The reality is much more mundane for most of us - not that I'm complaining, I have a decent pension.
I find it frustrating that people think Civil Servants are all Sir Humphrey types with massive pensions. The vast majority of Civil Servants are on fairly low salaries answering calls or processing passport applications etc.
As are the vast majority of those working in routine jobs in the private sector, but that's not the point.
The issue is, surely, in the like-for-like comparisons:
A senior manager on 120k in the Civil Service typically has a better pension and more benefits and protections than a senior manager on the same salary working for a private SME-type business.
A junior associate level person earning 37.5k in the Civil Service gets better supplementary stuff than the equivalent grade in the private sector, and so on.
Now, it used to be that the gold-plated pensions and easier working life in general in the Civil Service was offset by better base salaries and other advantages in the private sector, but this ceased to be the case in most instances quite a long time ago, except for a small number of individuals in very specialist roles in certain industries like banking, or those at directorship level in large organisations.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Respectfully disagree. Two children have died. Killing a third won't make it any better.
That would be a child that the government thinks should have the vote.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
The idea as I understand it is the state just gives people a sum of money to meet their basic needs, rather than going through the chaos and inequality of being required to apply for benefits/handouts. I don't think it is communism as it is only a basic income.
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
60 years is stupid for murder, completely agreed, it should be life to mean whole life for anyone who is guilty, without a possibility of parole.
60 years could mean released at 77 and potentially getting a quarter of a century of liberty after that. That is stupid I agree.
Life should mean until you die behind bars. Unless for some reason it is revealed to be a miscarriage of justice at which point we can release you, but we can't unexecute you.
What are you achieving locking someone up that long? The only argument that makes sense to me (in a civilised society; in less civilised ones it might be necessary to prevent vigilantism) is public protection and that is clearly not necessary with many murderers.
(Google says five traditional purposes of punishment are deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution if you want a cheat sheet )
You are achieving justice in saying to the families of the victims that their murderer will never again be free.
You are achieving punishment of the murderer by saying to him that they will never again be free.
You are achieving the best justice possible for anyone who was wrongly convicted by saying that we will release you if we find out you're innocent and won't have accidentally killed the wrong person.
There's a name going round social media but I think it's someone mucking as it translates to "My apartment"
This basically bursts the bubble of most of the nonsense going around on social media.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
The idea as I understand it is the state just gives people a sum of money to meet their basic needs, rather than going through the chaos and inequality of being required to apply for benefits/handouts. I don't think it is communism as it is only a basic income.
Exactly. It's a brilliant idea. It's just an absolute bugger to figure out how to transition to it. And like all utopian genius ideas (see also e.g. land tax) there's not a great deal of point until we do....
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
The idea as I understand it is the state just gives people a sum of money to meet their basic needs, rather than going through the chaos and inequality of being required to apply for benefits/handouts. I don't think it is communism as it is only a basic income.
Exactly. It's a brilliant idea. It's just an absolute bugger to figure out how to transition to it.
There is also the other small problem, it will be controlled by politicians.....
It will only a matter of time until, its will this group needs a top up because of y, this group doesn't need it as much, so we will cut that from them.
Its one of those classic economics textbook solutions which if everybody responds to the incentives as they logically will according to my model and it is operated in the manner it is intended, it will work great....
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
Surely it's better to have a money-doling-out system that requires near-zero administration and which can't be cheated than one which ultimately costs the same, but because of the costs of running it and enforcing/policiing it, results in less money being doled out?
I'm fairly strongly in favour of UBI for these very reasons. (But only if it truly means the end of all the existing benefits systems and associated faffery).
Two of the kids have died. This is a rare instance where the death penalty makes sense to me, it's cut and dried and society gains nothing by keeping this absolute **** locked up for 60+ years.
Hopefully a prison warden will let slip the identity and the other prisoners will deal with him.
Two children who have had their lives snatched away from them, two families absolutely devastated tonight. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for those parents who put their kids in the daycare not realising what was about to happen.
Every parent in the country is horrified by this, I know my wife and I both are, life in jail just doesn't seem to be enough. If it was my child that had been murdered I'd want to pull the trigger myself.
Does this comment attract a ban ? I would be interested in light of the discussions yesterday. But I actually agree with it to a point. It should be either a) 10 years in jail, b) life in a secure psychiatric hospital, or c) the death penalty. I don't see the point of a 60 year 'whole life' sentence, it is basically the same thing as a death sentence that we are too afraid to carry out. Either you have a policy of rehabilitation/redemption or you don't.
I agree massively long sentences are completely pointless. I'm also against the death penalty.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it) 2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel 3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though. 4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
60 years is stupid for murder, completely agreed, it should be life to mean whole life for anyone who is guilty, without a possibility of parole.
60 years could mean released at 77 and potentially getting a quarter of a century of liberty after that. That is stupid I agree.
Life should mean until you die behind bars. Unless for some reason it is revealed to be a miscarriage of justice at which point we can release you, but we can't unexecute you.
What are you achieving locking someone up that long? The only argument that makes sense to me (in a civilised society; in less civilised ones it might be necessary to prevent vigilantism) is public protection and that is clearly not necessary with many murderers.
(Google says five traditional purposes of punishment are deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution if you want a cheat sheet )
You are achieving justice in saying to the families of the victims that their murderer will never again be free.
You are achieving punishment of the murderer by saying to him that they will never again be free.
You are achieving the best justice possible for anyone who was wrongly convicted by saying that we will release you if we find out you're innocent and won't have accidentally killed the wrong person.
First point - well there's something in that. I have to disagree with you about the importance of it. And what's so special about murder there?
Second - well who is "the murderer" and what are you saying to "him". Where is the objective evidence for there being such a thing? I assume you agree if we cut off the murderer's ear he'd still be the murderer? Suppose we separated the body and brain of the murderer and by some kind of technology we can keep them both alive? Do we imprison both? Neither? And why is it important to say something to "him" after the fact?
Third point - this is just an anti death penalty argument.
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Maybe it's the other way around?
I tried many times to get onto the Civil Service gravy train, having spent many years in relatively senior roles working closely with various government departments and accumulating a fairly impressive CV. Got nowhere and eventually gave up.
The likes of me clearly don't fit into their plans. Maybe they could tell? Maybe there's an alarm somewhere that goes off whenever a government-sceptic Libertarian applies for a role.
The judges must release the identity of the killer. Otherwise there will be a massive racist conspiratorial fervor. It's in the public interest
If the rumours on twitter are true it will not calm immigration concerns at all, he was also reportedly on a security agency watch list and clearly radicalised though obviously not confirmed
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
Surely it's better to have a money-doling-out system that requires near-zero administration and which can't be cheated than one which ultimately costs the same, but because of the costs of running it and enforcing/policiing it, results in less money being doled out?
I'm fairly strongly in favour of UBI for these very reasons. (But only if it truly means the end of all the existing benefits systems and associated faffery).
We could certainly operate much more along those principles e.g. tax credits are really dumb if you think about it, you take a load of money of people, you get them to fill in a load of forms, there is a load of people have to assess the situation and some of that money comes back to you. And in the meantime, there is fraud and expensive admin. Yes there is the edge case where people get more out than they put in, but you can deal with that as well.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
Surely it's better to have a money-doling-out system that requires near-zero administration and which can't be cheated than one which ultimately costs the same, but because of the costs of running it and enforcing/policiing it, results in less money being doled out?
I'm fairly strongly in favour of UBI for these very reasons. (But only if it truly means the end of all the existing benefits systems and associated faffery).
Same here, but it needs to be truly universal and true elimination of all other income-related benefits.
Merge all benefits and taxes into one clean, flat, system.
Bruno Maçães @MacaesBruno The IDF has removed units from the war of extermination in Gaza in order to fight armed militias threatening to take over a military base in order to ensure the military’s right to rape Palestinian prisoners
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
... or just move to a system of 'basic income' at a similar level to the state pension - surely it is basically the same thing?
I am not sure what you mean by a system of basic income. Apologies. It is not a term I am familiar with.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
Surely it's better to have a money-doling-out system that requires near-zero administration and which can't be cheated than one which ultimately costs the same, but because of the costs of running it and enforcing/policiing it, results in less money being doled out?
I'm fairly strongly in favour of UBI for these very reasons. (But only if it truly means the end of all the existing benefits systems and associated faffery).
Same here, but it needs to be truly universal and true elimination of all other income-related benefits.
Merge all benefits and taxes into one clean, flat, system.
Milton Friedman's Negative Income Tax.
The problem is there will be winners and losers and politicians seem absolutely adverse to taking any incoming fire from where there will be some edge case scenarios in which people get screwed.
It either got to be massive groups of people who lose (normally the rich) or not at all.
The judges must release the identity of the killer. Otherwise there will be a massive racist conspiratorial fervor. It's in the public interest
If the rumours on twitter are true it will not calm immigration concerns at all, he was also reportedly on a security agency watch list and clearly radicalised though obviously not confirmed
Believe nothing on Twitter/X. Most of the posts are bots and could easily be foreign directed. Expect everything to be disinfo unless from a reputable source, although no reputable source will be naming the individual.
Just an impression you sometimes give off @MaxPB and @BartholomewRoberts Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick. 👍
I am in agreement with Max and Bart. All benefits including child allowance and state pension should be means tested. At the same time end the myth about NI and accept it is just another tax. Scrap voluntary contributions and make the pension available to everyone who meets the means tested criteria irrespectve of how much they have worked or paid.
No, minimise means-testing and have progressive tax rates with lower thresholds at the higher tax bands for pensioners.
It's not true that only wealthy pensioners who don't need the Winter Fuel Allowance and won't miss it are the only ones affected.
There is a significant group of older people out there who are poor, but for whom 'benefits' are stigmatised or simply mysterious. Those who don't get Pension Credits because they don't know how to claim the benefit, don't feel 'right' in doing so, don't know they're entitled to it, and so on. Some are 'too proud' to even want to know. And are poorer because of it.
We have this collective idea that the poorest people in society are those 'on benefits'. But the very poorest group of all are those who are entitled to, but missing out on, these benefits.
The problem with making Benefit X conditional on being an existing recipient of Benefit Y is that it will result in this gap getting ever wider.
It's not true that only wealthy pensioners who don't need the Winter Fuel Allowance and won't miss it are the only ones affected.
There is a significant group of older people out there who are poor, but for whom 'benefits' are stigmatised or simply mysterious. Those who don't get Pension Credits because they don't know how to claim the benefit, don't feel 'right' in doing so, don't know they're entitled to it, and so on. Some are 'too proud' to even want to know. And are poorer because of it.
We have this collective idea that the poorest people in society are those 'on benefits'. But the very poorest group of all are those who are entitled to, but missing out on, these benefits.
The problem with making Benefit X conditional on being an existing recipient of Benefit Y is that it will result in this gap getting ever wider.
Didn't the winter fuel allowance come in for exactly those reasons that pensioners were struggling and often too proud or found it too difficult to access benefits that might help them? The thought was that 80-90 year olds having to fill in a load of paperwork all for £200-300 can be difficult and confusing. And it was just much easier / cheaper not to go through mean testing it.
You would think, given a career of indolence, followed by a long retirement on a huge pension that folk would be fighting each other to work in the Public Sector. Given that we are all rational actors in the market place. But, strangely, they aren't. That paradox has never been quite resolved. Mysterious.
Becasue the "gold-plated" pension is more gold leaf obscuring the base metal of poor pay compared to equivalent jobs in the private sector.
It's not true that only wealthy pensioners who don't need the Winter Fuel Allowance and won't miss it are the only ones affected.
There is a significant group of older people out there who are poor, but for whom 'benefits' are stigmatised or simply mysterious. Those who don't get Pension Credits because they don't know how to claim the benefit, don't feel 'right' in doing so, don't know they're entitled to it, and so on. Some are 'too proud' to even want to know. And are poorer because of it.
We have this collective idea that the poorest people in society are those 'on benefits'. But the very poorest group of all are those who are entitled to, but missing out on, these benefits.
The problem with making Benefit X conditional on being an existing recipient of Benefit Y is that it will result in this gap getting ever wider.
There are also a lot of pensioners who don't qualify for pension credit and who are part of the "just about managing"
Comments
As I have now (for me) a fair amount of cash on the contest, I’m more than a bit concerned she’s going to drop a huge clanger at some point…
OBR seems to think they were misinformed by treasury?
Miscarriages of justices happen. There is no death penalty system in the world, ever, that doesn't risk executing an innocent person.
A wrongly convicted person can be released, even after decades. A wrongly executed person can't be brought back to life.
Not sure killing them all just in case is efficient.
Not killing is a better plan. Then people don't think it's OK to kill.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/02/brianna-ghey-murderers-named-sentenced-to-life-in-prison
In other countries IE Finland the age of criminal responsibility is 16, in the recent school shooting earlier this year there was no consequence for the perpetrator. It was just viewed as a tragedy connected to bullying.
It is pretty clear in my mind which is the more civilised country.
It could also apply to any other form of punishment. Does having prisons make people think it's ok to keep people locked up?
Given that we are all rational actors in the market place.
But, strangely, they aren't.
That paradox has never been quite resolved.
Mysterious.
F'r example, one big dollop of the overspend seems to have been on asylum, and it rather looks like nobody was even keeping track of it. Maybe Hunt didn't know about it because nobody told him. So why was that?
It's morally wrong.
Is that better?
John Gray's latest piece in the New Statesman.
"Marc Bloch: a warning from Europe’s past
According to Emmanuel Macron, the best analysis of the dangers facing the continent today comes from a French historian who was murdered by the Nazis in 1944.
By John Gray"
https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/07/marc-bloch-warning-from-europes-past-john-gray
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/08/the-science-behind-why-so-many-successful-millionaires-are-psychopaths-and-why-it-doesnt-have-to-be-a-bad-thing.html
'Research suggests politicians are more likely to be psychopaths'
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/research-suggests-politicians-are-more-likely-to-be-psychopaths-11364143/
https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-harris
The latest Fox battleground states poll still has Michigan and Pennsylvania tied between Trump and Harris, with Harris up 6% in Minnesota but Trump up 1% in Wisconsin
https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-close-races-battleground-states-show-voters-locked
Simply declaring a murderer to be a "psychopath", therefore worthy of death, is a slippery slope. TV doctor Robert Winston is a self confessed one.
If you achieve the same thing via a very expensive series of consultancies, outsourcing, Capita/etc, and a byzantine set of rules that feck over the poor in particular, then it's fine. If anything, to be encouraged.
See, we have this way of taxing rich old people, called income tax and we could also apply the national insurance tax too.
Targetting people for what was part of their employment package is bizarre, unless we're also going to heavily tax any assets people with high income managed to accumulate (I'd not be against a wealth tax FWIW).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Voter_demographics
However, endless True Crime interviews for documentaries and podcasts seems to be the current fashion.
There's a lot of myths around public sector pensions, centred around a pretty small number of very senior staff who happen to have large pensions. The reality is much more mundane for most of us - not that I'm complaining, I have a decent pension.
If you find out decades after executing someone that they were innocent, then you can't bring them back from the dead.
I'm entirely OK with saying to all perpetrators of crimes like today's that you will spend the rest of your life behind bars and we will never under any circumstances release you, unless somehow we discover we've got the wrong guy and you're actually innocent.
If someone behind bars wants to take their own life, they should be able to (which I extend to general public too), but the state should never do it.
It may be justified for public safety to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life, but as justice I'm not seeing it. This is for several reasons:
1. While I see convincing evidence of consciousness, I don't see intellectually convincing evidence of free will (although I like to think I have it, I cannot justify it)
2. Similarly while I like to believe there's a soul or something, I can't see evidence of it. So what are we punishing? Atoms? A computer program? Both these points to me dispense of the righteousness of the "punishment" aspect. Indeed making things unpleasant for someone who in some certain sense literally couldn't stop what they were doing is perhaps cruel
3. So we get onto deterrence. Well, I simply don't believe that a sentence much above 15 years (actually in prison) is particularly useful there. There's probably *something* I would do for 15 years in prison I wouldn't do for 25. Can't think what though.
4. Finally there's public protection. Well that's where life sentences can be useful. There are people so irretrievably broken that they do have to be kept away from the public for life.
Balancing all the above quasi philosophical positions though is practicality. We saw what IPP did, and it wasn't good. Politics is applied philosophy and all that... so we probably have to diverge from my principles.
But yeah 60 years is stupid.
It's a grim thought, but I admit I've had it.
Psychopath Pride Day is needed.
Great points made on both sides.
This isn't an explanation of anything really. I just think those forms are a fecking joke.
If not, the new leader should keep him on as shadow Chancellor.
And references taken up before interview. My arse.
The youth, who cannot be named for legal reasons and is originally from Cardiff, moved to the Southport area with his Rwandan parents when he was aged six.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/29/southport-major-incident-stabbing-police/
Really think about what a 15 year sentence would mean to you. It's a horrific prospect really. It's an interesting thought experiment - what would you do if you got a 15 year sentence that you wouldn't do if you got a 20 year one? Assume it's a violation of the gambling act and we're just talking size
Not sure where to would be suitable?
60 years could mean released at 77 and potentially getting a quarter of a century of liberty after that. That is stupid I agree.
Life should mean until you die behind bars. Unless for some reason it is revealed to be a miscarriage of justice at which point we can release you, but we can't unexecute you.
I am not in favour of any system that sees the taxpayer doling out money on a uniform basis to people irrespective of their needs. Hence my belief in the principle of means testing for all benefits.
If he was born in Cardiff 17 years ago this is not very likely even if his parents were originally from Rwanda.
But this is clearly not an opportunity to be missed by the usual suspects.
(Google says five traditional purposes of punishment are deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution if you want a cheat sheet
I'm genuinely unsure about 2024.
As are the vast majority of those working in routine jobs in the private sector, but that's not the point.
The issue is, surely, in the like-for-like comparisons:
A senior manager on 120k in the Civil Service typically has a better pension and more benefits and protections than a senior manager on the same salary working for a private SME-type business.
A junior associate level person earning 37.5k in the Civil Service gets better supplementary stuff than the equivalent grade in the private sector, and so on.
Now, it used to be that the gold-plated pensions and easier working life in general in the Civil Service was offset by better base salaries and other advantages in the private sector, but this ceased to be the case in most instances quite a long time ago, except for a small number of individuals in very specialist roles in certain industries like banking, or those at directorship level in large organisations.
You are achieving punishment of the murderer by saying to him that they will never again be free.
You are achieving the best justice possible for anyone who was wrongly convicted by saying that we will release you if we find out you're innocent and won't have accidentally killed the wrong person.
It will only a matter of time until, its will this group needs a top up because of y, this group doesn't need it as much, so we will cut that from them.
Its one of those classic economics textbook solutions which if everybody responds to the incentives as they logically will according to my model and it is operated in the manner it is intended, it will work great....
Surely it's better to have a money-doling-out system that requires near-zero administration and which can't be cheated than one which ultimately costs the same, but because of the costs of running it and enforcing/policiing it, results in less money being doled out?
I'm fairly strongly in favour of UBI for these very reasons. (But only if it truly means the end of all the existing benefits systems and associated faffery).
Second - well who is "the murderer" and what are you saying to "him". Where is the objective evidence for there being such a thing? I assume you agree if we cut off the murderer's ear he'd still be the murderer? Suppose we separated the body and brain of the murderer and by some kind of technology we can keep them both alive? Do we imprison both? Neither? And why is it important to say something to "him" after the fact?
Third point - this is just an anti death penalty argument.
Maybe it's the other way around?
I tried many times to get onto the Civil Service gravy train, having spent many years in relatively senior roles working closely with various government departments and accumulating a fairly impressive CV. Got nowhere and eventually gave up.
The likes of me clearly don't fit into their plans. Maybe they could tell? Maybe there's an alarm somewhere that goes off whenever a government-sceptic Libertarian applies for a role.
Merge all benefits and taxes into one clean, flat, system.
Milton Friedman's Negative Income Tax.
Bruno Maçães
@MacaesBruno
The IDF has removed units from the war of extermination in Gaza in order to fight armed militias threatening to take over a military base in order to ensure the military’s right to rape Palestinian prisoners
https://x.com/MacaesBruno/status/1818048917352694264
It either got to be massive groups of people who lose (normally the rich) or not at all.
There is a significant group of older people out there who are poor, but for whom 'benefits' are stigmatised or simply mysterious. Those who don't get Pension Credits because they don't know how to claim the benefit, don't feel 'right' in doing so, don't know they're entitled to it, and so on. Some are 'too proud' to even want to know. And are poorer because of it.
We have this collective idea that the poorest people in society are those 'on benefits'. But the very poorest group of all are those who are entitled to, but missing out on, these benefits.
The problem with making Benefit X conditional on being an existing recipient of Benefit Y is that it will result in this gap getting ever wider.