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The latest White House race betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,158
edited August 4 in General
imageThe latest White House race betting – politicalbetting.com

We’ve started to see some polls (conducted exclusively after Biden’s announcement) which shows Harris leading. My expectation is that the polling will getter for Harris until after the convention (where parties usually get a bounce) and she might even be favourite in this market then.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    First. Like Trump or Harris.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,599
    Basically the Royals are like those champagne socialists/JSO hypocrites.

    Royal family to buy two new helicopters despite green push

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-royals-helicopter-sovereign-grant-bc5t6nprl
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    edited July 24
    Autocorrect blooper:

    will getter for Harris

    On the main point, very possibly. It depends on how she comes across. The great advantage she has over Trump is having been fairly low profile as VP she is to some extent an unknown quantity. If she exudes warmth, charm and ability in the next three months that won't end well for him because he's got none of those three.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    DougSeal said:

    First. Like Trump or Harris.

    Only little fat man Kim thinks the former.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,599
    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    BBC News - Children returned to family after Leeds disorder
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyj41w72vn8o

    What a messy situation.

    So those 4 children were all under court orders since April to stay with extended family, and last Thursday was because there was a fear of them being removed from the country.

    "The court heard the children were all foreign nationals without settled status in the UK, and it could be difficult for them to return to Britain."

    Why are we trying to keep them in the country?, no doubt at taxpayers expense for welfare payments as well as all the agencies time.

    Not like they are going to North Korea. I thought Romania are esteemed allies who subscribe to all human rights nostrums as EU members, so let them go, send Romanian Embassy a report that they are going and tell them the Romanian Social Services might want to read it then close the case.

    Of course a lot of work and money for various professionals and lawyers at
    taxpayers expense if they are prevented from leaving.
    Because - and I don’t know the facts of this case - they are vulnerable children at risk.

    There is a moral duty to intervene to protect them
    The UK government also has a moral duty to not impoverish the citizens of the UK by pointlessly and expensively trying to better the lives of everyone in the world; and also to not destroy the urban culture and trust of UK society by importing seven billion people a year, many of them openly contemptuous of our values

    I fear these other duties have been forgotten to such an extent the UK is now beyond saving - for its own citizens
    Don't be silly. You really, really can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners and a fortiori by what lengths it goes to to prevent the abuse, torture, murder etc of its children (and these children are as much citizens as anyone else is)
    Yes indeed. We allowed 100,000+ underage white girls to be raped by racist Muslim grooming gangs, because we were afraid of “inflaming community tensions”. THAT is how Britain tries to “prevent the abuse of its children”. By literally ignoring the greatest crime in a century
    There are 220,000 people in Rochdale, more or less. Are you suggesting nearly half its population are survivors of this sexual abuse case or are you pulling figures out of your arse for effect, to inflame tensions yourself? I’m going to assume the latter.
    It was a rather wider matter than just Rochdale. KLF(JAM)s Its Grim Up North gives a reasonable list as I can't be bothered to.
    No - please do. An accusation of this magnitude needs at least a link. Unless you’re not telling the truth. Which I don’t think you are.
    https://youtu.be/20XLWEjN9eI
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,599
    ydoethur said:

    Autocorrect blooper:

    will getter for Harris

    Nah, that's all me, was written on a MacBook Air.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    First. Like Trump or Harris.

    Only little fat man Kim thinks the former.
    Hyufd's name isn't Kim, and nor is he fat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    This is quite an interesting development.

    Finance minister: Mexico ‘must produce more’ amid growing trade deficit with China

    https://mexiconewsdaily.com/business/mexico-china-produce-more-growing-trade-deficit-reciprocal/
    ...The former ambassador said that “ideally,” Mexico, the United States and Canada would all “mirror each other’s tariffs” on Chinese products...

    To be effective, tariffs will have to be targeted at particular sectors where there are decent prospects for import substitution.
    Otherwise they'll end up being self-defeating as a result of unpopularity.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    BBC News - Children returned to family after Leeds disorder
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyj41w72vn8o

    What a messy situation.

    So those 4 children were all under court orders since April to stay with extended family, and last Thursday was because there was a fear of them being removed from the country.

    "The court heard the children were all foreign nationals without settled status in the UK, and it could be difficult for them to return to Britain."

    Why are we trying to keep them in the country?, no doubt at taxpayers expense for welfare payments as well as all the agencies time.

    Not like they are going to North Korea. I thought Romania are esteemed allies who subscribe to all human rights nostrums as EU members, so let them go, send Romanian Embassy a report that they are going and tell them the Romanian Social Services might want to read it then close the case.

    Of course a lot of work and money for various professionals and lawyers at
    taxpayers expense if they are prevented from leaving.
    Because - and I don’t know the facts of this case - they are vulnerable children at risk.

    There is a moral duty to intervene to protect them
    The UK government also has a moral duty to not impoverish the citizens of the UK by pointlessly and expensively trying to better the lives of everyone in the world; and also to not destroy the urban culture and trust of UK society by importing seven billion people a year, many of them openly contemptuous of our values

    I fear these other duties have been forgotten to such an extent the UK is now beyond saving - for its own citizens
    Don't be silly. You really, really can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners and a fortiori by what lengths it goes to to prevent the abuse, torture, murder etc of its children (and these children are as much citizens as anyone else is)
    Yes indeed. We allowed 100,000+ underage white girls to be raped by racist Muslim grooming gangs, because we were afraid of “inflaming community tensions”. THAT is how Britain tries to “prevent the abuse of its children”. By literally ignoring the greatest crime in a century
    There are 220,000 people in Rochdale, more or less. Are you suggesting nearly half its population are survivors of this sexual abuse case or are you pulling figures out of your arse for effect, to inflame tensions yourself? I’m going to assume the latter.
    It was a rather wider matter than just Rochdale. KLF(JAM)s Its Grim Up North gives a reasonable list as I can't be bothered to.
    No - please do. An accusation of this magnitude needs at least a link. Unless you’re not telling the truth. Which I don’t think you are.
    https://youtu.be/20XLWEjN9eI
    So your “evidence” is a music video with a list of northern towns? Great. Next I will be citing “Panic” by The Smiths to illustrate the number of towns with 5G connectivity issues. And earlier KLF videos to prove how HS2 should be extended to Mu Mu Land.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    The thing I hadn't really spotted about Harris before is that she's a very smiley person. Big contrast to snarly, pouty Trump.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651

    ydoethur said:

    Autocorrect blooper:

    will getter for Harris

    Nah, that's all me, was written on a MacBook Air.
    Things can only getter better!
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    How much tax do you pay?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    Me.

    Too much.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,599
    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    I'll have to ask my financial advisers and bank for an exact figure.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361
    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Basically the Royals are like those champagne socialists/JSO hypocrites.

    Royal family to buy two new helicopters despite green push

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-royals-helicopter-sovereign-grant-bc5t6nprl

    Well, it's not the royal family that are buying them...

    "Crowned Thieves", as Lenin accurately put it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,599

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    How much tax do you pay?
    Me personally? Or do you want to include the family trust I am a beneficiary of?

    Fun fact, I have to declare all my income and taxes to my employer.

    Caesar's wife etc.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Compulsory ID incoming. Good job too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Dura_Ace said:

    Basically the Royals are like those champagne socialists/JSO hypocrites.

    Royal family to buy two new helicopters despite green push

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-royals-helicopter-sovereign-grant-bc5t6nprl

    Well, it's not the royal family that are buying them...

    "Crowned Thieves", as Lenin accurately put it.
    The Royals just got a decent payboost too:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/24/king-to-receive-extra-45m-of-public-money-as-crown-estate-income-soars
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,794

    The thing I hadn't really spotted about Harris before is that she's a very smiley person. Big contrast to snarly, pouty Trump.

    There was a nice story on R4 yesterday morning from her former boss when she was head of family services in California. Her department dealt with adoptions and these were generally approved by the court as a group on a particular day. Harris bought a collection of teddies for the children so that they would all have something to mark the day they found their loving new home.

    The impression I am getting is that she is not only smiley but a genuine people person interested in individuals and compassionate. Her "tough enough" credentials are less clear as are her organisational skills if her last campaign is anything to go by.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Compulsory ID incoming. Good job too.
    A reminder of the conditions needed for this to be anything other than A Bad Thing:

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3389196#Comment_3389196

    I’ve always said I’m in favour of ID cards, if the following conditions are met:

    1) They’re issued for free

    2) You don’t have to carry them at all times

    3) You can use them chip and pin to access all government services - so they would replace passports and driving licences, not augment them

    4) That you had the power to access all information the government holds on you, and amend it where it is wrong

    5) That civil servants who access your data are logged, and you can see who they are and why they accessed it

    6) That if somebody has accessed your data inappropriately you have the right to take legal action against them, funded by the government.

    And numbers 4-6 will not happen while any civil servant breathes air.

    So - I oppose them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,103
    edited July 24
    Good morning everyone, and thanks for the header, @TSE .

    I ended up on the "Homer Simpson Votes 2008" video, for some reason. *

    A new thing I noticed; as Homer Simpson is being sucked into the rigged voting machine to be killed he says "This does not happen in America. Maybe Ohio, but not in America."

    Ohio is JD Vance's state, Prescient?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuK3qpySn2U

    * It was a conversation about the accessibility of touch sensitive buttons or physical buttons, and I recalled his voting machine experience and the machine doing the unwanted option :smile: . My local ironical example is a parking machine where the "free one hour" button is destroyed by use, and is taking a looooong time to repair for some reason.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362
    DavidL said:

    The thing I hadn't really spotted about Harris before is that she's a very smiley person. Big contrast to snarly, pouty Trump.

    There was a nice story on R4 yesterday morning from her former boss when she was head of family services in California. Her department dealt with adoptions and these were generally approved by the court as a group on a particular day. Harris bought a collection of teddies for the children so that they would all have something to mark the day they found their loving new home.

    The impression I am getting is that she is not only smiley but a genuine people person interested in individuals and compassionate. Her "tough enough" credentials are less clear as are her organisational skills if her last campaign is anything to go by.
    I would have thought that the organisation of the campaign requires a very good behind the scenes person and her choice there was the problem.

    I don't see that being an issue going forward...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Mortimer said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    Good for him.

    Someone needs to start pushing back against the notion that everything needs to be in public.

    Would be much better if more of life was kept private. Would probably be good for mental health, too.
    King Billy in waiting doesn’t seem to have much problem with privacy when it comes to constantly pumping out pr photos of his kids.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    .

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Thank heavens the Telegraph has always been a staunch defender of the need to better fund the NHS.
  • Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,794
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,240
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Compulsory ID incoming. Good job too.
    A reminder of the conditions needed for this to be anything other than A Bad Thing:

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3389196#Comment_3389196

    I’ve always said I’m in favour of ID cards, if the following conditions are met:

    1) They’re issued for free

    2) You don’t have to carry them at all times

    3) You can use them chip and pin to access all government services - so they would replace passports and driving licences, not augment them

    4) That you had the power to access all information the government holds on you, and amend it where it is wrong

    5) That civil servants who access your data are logged, and you can see who they are and why they accessed it

    6) That if somebody has accessed your data inappropriately you have the right to take legal action against them, funded by the government.

    And numbers 4-6 will not happen while any civil servant breathes air.

    So - I oppose them.
    I think 5 already happens. Certainly I get a random data check pop up from time to time, but I suspect all my access to CIS is logged.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Compulsory ID incoming. Good job too.
    A reminder of the conditions needed for this to be anything other than A Bad Thing:

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3389196#Comment_3389196

    I’ve always said I’m in favour of ID cards, if the following conditions are met:

    1) They’re issued for free

    2) You don’t have to carry them at all times

    3) You can use them chip and pin to access all government services - so they would replace passports and driving licences, not augment them

    4) That you had the power to access all information the government holds on you, and amend it where it is wrong

    5) That civil servants who access your data are logged, and you can see who they are and why they accessed it

    6) That if somebody has accessed your data inappropriately you have the right to take legal action against them, funded by the government.

    And numbers 4-6 will not happen while any civil servant breathes air.

    So - I oppose them.
    Do not go for 4 - as that will result in a global system because hey it's the easiest way to do the reporting.

    5 should already be the case, if the system doesn't have that level of audit trail there then there are way bigger problems that need to be addressed.

    and 6 - if they offer it, it would be impossible to access because the criteria for inappropriate access would be too high - trust me you would not believe how easy it is to access the wrong data...

    And most audits record when the data was loaded, not how long the user looked at the data for - it could easily be 3 seconds as they discover they've got the wrong record or were going down the wrong track...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    I'm aware of that, but there's no pick that offers everything. Kelly probably offers as much as anyone else in terms of wide appeal and a real shot at Arizona's votes.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 24
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    BBC News - Children returned to family after Leeds disorder
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyj41w72vn8o

    What a messy situation.

    So those 4 children were all under court orders since April to stay with extended family, and last Thursday was because there was a fear of them being removed from the country.

    "The court heard the children were all foreign nationals without settled status in the UK, and it could be difficult for them to return to Britain."

    Why are we trying to keep them in the country?, no doubt at taxpayers expense for welfare payments as well as all the agencies time.

    Not like they are going to North Korea. I thought Romania are esteemed allies who subscribe to all human rights nostrums as EU members, so let them go, send Romanian Embassy a report that they are going and tell them the Romanian Social Services might want to read it then close the case.

    Of course a lot of work and money for various professionals and lawyers at
    taxpayers expense if they are prevented from leaving.
    Because - and I don’t know the facts of this case - they are vulnerable children at risk.

    There is a moral duty to intervene to protect them
    The UK government also has a moral duty to not impoverish the citizens of the UK by pointlessly and expensively trying to better the lives of everyone in the world; and also to not destroy the urban culture and trust of UK society by importing seven billion people a year, many of them openly contemptuous of our values

    I fear these other duties have been forgotten to such an extent the UK is now beyond saving - for its own citizens
    Don't be silly. You really, really can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners and a fortiori by what lengths it goes to to prevent the abuse, torture, murder etc of its children (and these children are as much citizens as anyone else is)
    Yes indeed. We allowed 100,000+ underage white girls to be raped by racist Muslim grooming gangs, because we were afraid of “inflaming community tensions”. THAT is how Britain tries to “prevent the abuse of its children”. By literally ignoring the greatest crime in a century
    There are 220,000 people in Rochdale, more or less. Are you suggesting nearly half its population are survivors of this sexual abuse case or are you pulling figures out of your arse for effect, to inflame tensions yourself? I’m going to assume the latter.
    It was a rather wider matter than just Rochdale. KLF(JAM)s Its Grim Up North gives a reasonable list as I can't be bothered to.
    No - please do. An accusation of this magnitude needs at least a link. Unless you’re not telling the truth. Which I don’t think you are.
    https://youtu.be/20XLWEjN9eI
    So your “evidence” is a music video with a list of northern towns? Great. Next I will be citing “Panic” by The Smiths to illustrate the number of towns with 5G connectivity issues. And earlier KLF videos to prove how HS2 should be extended to Mu Mu Land.
    @another_richard has pointed out the following in the previous thread:
    "The number was a calculation by Alastair Meeks.

    Now if you don't agree with it perhaps you could give your own estimation."
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Good morning. Two stories involving whips in the news today.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 24

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    In SKS's Britain I warn you not to fall ill.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Wtf is that flabby cheeked electoral reject Jonathan Ashworth doing on the airwaves day in day out, in this case defending the 2 child vote? He almost makes me warm to Wes Streeting.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,839
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    Me.

    Too much.
    Income tax: none; no income, just withdrawals from pension pot below threshold.

    VAT, sugar tax and other levies: silly me, only income tax counts in these discussions. Mrs Thatcher's real legacy!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    Wtf is that flabby cheeked electoral reject Jonathan Ashworth doing on the airwaves day in day out, in this case defending the 2 child vote? He almost makes me warm to Wes Streeting.

    Maybe that's the plan?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,794
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The thing I hadn't really spotted about Harris before is that she's a very smiley person. Big contrast to snarly, pouty Trump.

    There was a nice story on R4 yesterday morning from her former boss when she was head of family services in California. Her department dealt with adoptions and these were generally approved by the court as a group on a particular day. Harris bought a collection of teddies for the children so that they would all have something to mark the day they found their loving new home.

    The impression I am getting is that she is not only smiley but a genuine people person interested in individuals and compassionate. Her "tough enough" credentials are less clear as are her organisational skills if her last campaign is anything to go by.
    I would have thought that the organisation of the campaign requires a very good behind the scenes person and her choice there was the problem.

    I don't see that being an issue going forward...
    So does being President. The Biden administration has delivered very well despite having a nominal head who has clearly been struggling for a while and now has almost no grip at all.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited July 24

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Is your evidence for that “Lazy” by Suede? Or maybe “ Lazyitis” by the Happy Mondays would make your point more convincingly?

    EDIT: I see Stuartinromford has also made a suggestion
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,240
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Neither is it an offence to arrive in the UK on a small boat. Yachtsmen and fishermen do it all the time
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    I'll have to ask my financial advisers and bank for an exact figure.
    Paying financial advisers is like buying champagne by the glass. Stick it in VUSA via a flat rate online broker. Not financial advice.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    I've not yet decided what's the funniest element of this story.

    Elon Musk denies reported $45 million a month pledge to Trump, says he doesn’t ‘subscribe to cult of personality’
    https://fortune.com/2024/07/23/elon-musk-backs-down-from-45-million-a-month-pledge-to-trump-says-he-doesnt-subscribe-to-cult-of-personality/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,397
    Dura_Ace said:

    Basically the Royals are like those champagne socialists/JSO hypocrites.

    Royal family to buy two new helicopters despite green push

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-royals-helicopter-sovereign-grant-bc5t6nprl

    Well, it's not the royal family that are buying them...

    "Crowned Thieves", as Lenin accurately put it.
    Whereas he was a usurping thief.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,794
    edited July 24

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    I'm aware of that, but there's no pick that offers everything. Kelly probably offers as much as anyone else in terms of wide appeal and a real shot at Arizona's votes.
    AZ appears to be trending Dem in any case.

    The battleground continues to be the rust belt and a Dem ticket from the south-west sunshine states shows a lack of interest which Trump and Vance will exploit.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    BBC News - Children returned to family after Leeds disorder
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyj41w72vn8o

    What a messy situation.

    So those 4 children were all under court orders since April to stay with extended family, and last Thursday was because there was a fear of them being removed from the country.

    "The court heard the children were all foreign nationals without settled status in the UK, and it could be difficult for them to return to Britain."

    Why are we trying to keep them in the country?, no doubt at taxpayers expense for welfare payments as well as all the agencies time.

    Not like they are going to North Korea. I thought Romania are esteemed allies who subscribe to all human rights nostrums as EU members, so let them go, send Romanian Embassy a report that they are going and tell them the Romanian Social Services might want to read it then close the case.

    Of course a lot of work and money for various professionals and lawyers at
    taxpayers expense if they are prevented from leaving.
    Because - and I don’t know the facts of this case - they are vulnerable children at risk.

    There is a moral duty to intervene to protect them
    The UK government also has a moral duty to not impoverish the citizens of the UK by pointlessly and expensively trying to better the lives of everyone in the world; and also to not destroy the urban culture and trust of UK society by importing seven billion people a year, many of them openly contemptuous of our values

    I fear these other duties have been forgotten to such an extent the UK is now beyond saving - for its own citizens
    Don't be silly. You really, really can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners and a fortiori by what lengths it goes to to prevent the abuse, torture, murder etc of its children (and these children are as much citizens as anyone else is)
    Yes indeed. We allowed 100,000+ underage white girls to be raped by racist Muslim grooming gangs, because we were afraid of “inflaming community tensions”. THAT is how Britain tries to “prevent the abuse of its children”. By literally ignoring the greatest crime in a century
    There are 220,000 people in Rochdale, more or less. Are you suggesting nearly half its population are survivors of this sexual abuse case or are you pulling figures out of your arse for effect, to inflame tensions yourself? I’m going to assume the latter.
    It was a rather wider matter than just Rochdale. KLF(JAM)s Its Grim Up North gives a reasonable list as I can't be bothered to.
    No - please do. An accusation of this magnitude needs at least a link. Unless you’re not telling the truth. Which I don’t think you are.
    https://youtu.be/20XLWEjN9eI
    So your “evidence” is a music video with a list of northern towns? Great. Next I will be citing “Panic” by The Smiths to illustrate the number of towns with 5G connectivity issues. And earlier KLF videos to prove how HS2 should be extended to Mu Mu Land.
    @another_richard has pointed out the following in the previous thread:
    "The number was a calculation by Alastair Meeks.

    Now if you don't agree with it perhaps you could give your own estimation."


    Sure. I’ve read the Parliamentary report on the issue. It contains estimates. I suggest you read it rather than base your ill informed bigotry off the back of a misinterpretation of KLF lyrics.

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,397

    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    I'll have to ask my financial advisers and bank for an exact figure.
    Paying financial advisers is like buying champagne by the glass. Stick it in VUSA via a flat rate online broker. Not financial advice.
    I did that recently and paid £750 for it.

    All I got out of it was I have too much UK stock (not enough US), my pension looks fine for retirement and we don't have enough life insurance. Marginally helpful to have that corroborated but only really £250 of value to review a few documents, if you ask me.

    So, not again.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,839
    Nigelb said:

    I've not yet decided what's the funniest element of this story.

    Elon Musk denies reported $45 million a month pledge to Trump, says he doesn’t ‘subscribe to cult of personality’
    https://fortune.com/2024/07/23/elon-musk-backs-down-from-45-million-a-month-pledge-to-trump-says-he-doesnt-subscribe-to-cult-of-personality/

    Musk's pledge was a political promise!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    The Government makes estimates of what the number is likely to be. You can look those up.

    Why set a maximum number? Circumstances change. If war broke out in France, we’d see a huge increase in number, but I think the British people would be happy to take those numbers in, as we did with, for example, the quarter of a million Belgian refugees during World War I.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    NC is also in play.

    As I noted yesterday, the notion of VP candidates 'delivering' their state is a pretty flawed one. Any difference they're likely to make is fairly marginal; either the Presidential candidate has it, or she doesn't.

    The Democrats are pretty fortunate in having a good half dozen strong VP contenders. The Harris campaign will be doing targeted polling over the next week or so to try to see if any of them make a significant impact. That's more likely to decide the pick (along with whether of not she want the guy in question) than any of our strategy notions.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    But they don’t make it here, which is why the current arrangements are sustainable. You can work yourself up into a tizzy about something that’s never going to happen if you want, but it doesn’t seem to serve any useful purpose.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    I am sure other Americanisms like undocumented workers and unhoused will be following shortly.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    Indeed.

    A realistic annual number might be 0.1% of the population with perhaps extra from specific obligations such as Ukraine or Hong Kong.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,103
    edited July 24

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage. It would help if authors could be identified imo, as that is really now the only way to evaluate the likely quality of a piece.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    Just Dull Vance. How many Scaramuccis will he last?
    https://x.com/Scaramucci/status/1815906805467185209
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,839
    First PMQs. First day of the Paris Olympics. The opening ceremony is on Friday night but the soccerball and egg-chasing start today.
    https://olympics.com/en/paris-2024/schedule/24-july
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,774
    Mr. B, is a Truss or a Scaramucci the shorter measurement of time?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 24

    First PMQs. First day of the Paris Olympics. The opening ceremony is on Friday night but the soccerball and egg-chasing start today.
    https://olympics.com/en/paris-2024/schedule/24-july

    Presuming the performers don't go through with their strike....they are already on a go slow.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361
    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    This is doing the rounds on social media. How true is this ? If so, why ?

    https://x.com/aria_babu/status/1815403643748696540?s=61
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    I'm aware of that, but there's no pick that offers everything. Kelly probably offers as much as anyone else in terms of wide appeal and a real shot at Arizona's votes.
    AZ appears to be trending Dem in any case.

    The battleground continues to be the rust belt and a Dem ticket from the south-west sunshine states shows a lack of interest which Trump and Vance will exploit.
    I'm not seeing the lack of interest.
    https://x.com/mmpadellan/status/1815824921626566945
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    MattW said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
    We do need to have a better ED, after all private hospitals do not run EDs, indeed often they send their sickest patient to the NHS ones.

    When you have your heart attack there is nowhere else to go, so even the rich Alison Pearson needs it to be functional. It's not just about money, but there also needs to be better staff training and leadership.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    Indeed.

    A realistic annual number might be 0.1% of the population with perhaps extra from specific obligations such as Ukraine or Hong Kong.
    Which, curiously enough, is roughly the current rate;


    In 2023, 67,337 applications for asylum were made in the UK, which related to 84,425 individuals (more than one applicant can be included in a single application)...

    In 2022, there were around 13 asylum applications for every 10,000 people living in the UK. Across the EU27 there were 22 asylum applications for every 10,000 people. The UK was therefore below the average among EU countries for asylum applications per head of population, ranking 19th among EU27 countries plus the UK on this measure.


    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    edited July 24

    Mr. B, is a Truss or a Scaramucci the shorter measurement of time?

    There are about four 'mooches to a Truss.
    I don't think we yet have an accurate measure for either a Vance or a lettuce.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    NC is also in play.

    As I noted yesterday, the notion of VP candidates 'delivering' their state is a pretty flawed one. Any difference they're likely to make is fairly marginal; either the Presidential candidate has it, or she doesn't.

    The Democrats are pretty fortunate in having a good half dozen strong VP contenders. The Harris campaign will be doing targeted polling over the next week or so to try to see if any of them make a significant impact. That's more likely to decide the pick (along with whether of not she want the guy in question) than any of our strategy notions.
    A marginal effect is correct but swing states are often won by thin margins.

    Unless Gov Cooper is picked for VP then NC will be for the Dems what MN is for the GOP - a state they can win, but only when they've already won enough elsewhere.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    This is doing the rounds on social media. How true is this ? If so, why ?

    https://x.com/aria_babu/status/1815403643748696540?s=61
    If someone has a visa and the qualification then they are entitled to apply.

    As I said the other day , fixing the random allocation to Foundation posts is a quick win to improve Junior doctors morale at little cost.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. B, is a Truss or a Scaramucci the shorter measurement of time?

    There are about four 'mooches to a Truss.
    I don't think we yet have an accurate measure for either a Vance or a lettuce.
    Isn't a lettuce 1.2 Trusses?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,103
    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    @Foxy , here:
    https://archive.ph/tUVeL#selection-2849.101-2855.8

  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 24
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    BBC News - Children returned to family after Leeds disorder
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyj41w72vn8o

    What a messy situation.

    So those 4 children were all under court orders since April to stay with extended family, and last Thursday was because there was a fear of them being removed from the country.

    "The court heard the children were all foreign nationals without settled status in the UK, and it could be difficult for them to return to Britain."

    Why are we trying to keep them in the country?, no doubt at taxpayers expense for welfare payments as well as all the agencies time.

    Not like they are going to North Korea. I thought Romania are esteemed allies who subscribe to all human rights nostrums as EU members, so let them go, send Romanian Embassy a report that they are going and tell them the Romanian Social Services might want to read it then close the case.

    Of course a lot of work and money for various professionals and lawyers at
    taxpayers expense if they are prevented from leaving.
    Because - and I don’t know the facts of this case - they are vulnerable children at risk.

    There is a moral duty to intervene to protect them
    The UK government also has a moral duty to not impoverish the citizens of the UK by pointlessly and expensively trying to better the lives of everyone in the world; and also to not destroy the urban culture and trust of UK society by importing seven billion people a year, many of them openly contemptuous of our values

    I fear these other duties have been forgotten to such an extent the UK is now beyond saving - for its own citizens
    Don't be silly. You really, really can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners and a fortiori by what lengths it goes to to prevent the abuse, torture, murder etc of its children (and these children are as much citizens as anyone else is)
    Yes indeed. We allowed 100,000+ underage white girls to be raped by racist Muslim grooming gangs, because we were afraid of “inflaming community tensions”. THAT is how Britain tries to “prevent the abuse of its children”. By literally ignoring the greatest crime in a century
    There are 220,000 people in Rochdale, more or less. Are you suggesting nearly half its population are survivors of this sexual abuse case or are you pulling figures out of your arse for effect, to inflame tensions yourself? I’m going to assume the latter.
    It was a rather wider matter than just Rochdale. KLF(JAM)s Its Grim Up North gives a reasonable list as I can't be bothered to.
    No - please do. An accusation of this magnitude needs at least a link. Unless you’re not telling the truth. Which I don’t think you are.
    https://youtu.be/20XLWEjN9eI
    So your “evidence” is a music video with a list of northern towns? Great. Next I will be citing “Panic” by The Smiths to illustrate the number of towns with 5G connectivity issues. And earlier KLF videos to prove how HS2 should be extended to Mu Mu Land.
    @another_richard has pointed out the following in the previous thread:
    "The number was a calculation by Alastair Meeks.

    Now if you don't agree with it perhaps you could give your own estimation."
    Sure. I’ve read the Parliamentary report on the issue. It contains estimates. I suggest you read it rather than base your ill informed bigotry off the back of a misinterpretation of KLF lyrics.

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf


    And you believe it presumably.

    "Around the same time, cases were being reported - with convictions - in many towns and cities in the UK, including Bradford, Newcastle, Rochdale, Bristol, Oxford and Oldham."

    https://thelead.uk/we-are-known-now-drawn-out-aftermath-rotherham-and-rochdale-child-exploitation-scandal.

    You can also add Derby, Halifax, Keighley, Peterborough, Aylesbury and Telford to that among others.

    Its Grim Up North.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513
    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    We should adopt the Norwegian system where everyone's tax return was online.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,186
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    BBC News - Children returned to family after Leeds disorder
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyj41w72vn8o

    What a messy situation.

    So those 4 children were all under court orders since April to stay with extended family, and last Thursday was because there was a fear of them being removed from the country.

    "The court heard the children were all foreign nationals without settled status in the UK, and it could be difficult for them to return to Britain."

    Why are we trying to keep them in the country?, no doubt at taxpayers expense for welfare payments as well as all the agencies time.

    Not like they are going to North Korea. I thought Romania are esteemed allies who subscribe to all human rights nostrums as EU members, so let them go, send Romanian Embassy a report that they are going and tell them the Romanian Social Services might want to read it then close the case.

    Of course a lot of work and money for various professionals and lawyers at
    taxpayers expense if they are prevented from leaving.
    Because - and I don’t know the facts of this case - they are vulnerable children at risk.

    There is a moral duty to intervene to protect them
    The UK government also has a moral duty to not impoverish the citizens of the UK by pointlessly and expensively trying to better the lives of everyone in the world; and also to not destroy the urban culture and trust of UK society by importing seven billion people a year, many of them openly contemptuous of our values

    I fear these other duties have been forgotten to such an extent the UK is now beyond saving - for its own citizens
    Don't be silly. You really, really can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners and a fortiori by what lengths it goes to to prevent the abuse, torture, murder etc of its children (and these children are as much citizens as anyone else is)
    Yes indeed. We allowed 100,000+ underage white girls to be raped by racist Muslim grooming gangs, because we were afraid of “inflaming community tensions”. THAT is how Britain tries to “prevent the abuse of its children”. By literally ignoring the greatest crime in a century
    There are 220,000 people in Rochdale, more or less. Are you suggesting nearly half its population are survivors of this sexual abuse case or are you pulling figures out of your arse for effect, to inflame tensions yourself? I’m going to assume the latter.
    It was a rather wider matter than just Rochdale. KLF(JAM)s Its Grim Up North gives a reasonable list as I can't be bothered to.
    No - please do. An accusation of this magnitude needs at least a link. Unless you’re not telling the truth. Which I don’t think you are.
    https://youtu.be/20XLWEjN9eI
    So your “evidence” is a music video with a list of northern towns? Great. Next I will be citing “Panic” by The Smiths to illustrate the number of towns with 5G connectivity issues. And earlier KLF videos to prove how HS2 should be extended to Mu Mu Land.
    What about extending HS2 to Mau Mau Land?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,035
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
    We do need to have a better ED, after all private hospitals do not run EDs, indeed often they send their sickest patient to the NHS ones.

    When you have your heart attack there is nowhere else to go, so even the rich Alison Pearson needs it to be functional. It's not just about money, but there also needs to be better staff training and leadership.
    You tell me if I’m a million miles off, but on all my recent visits to A&E, with assorted sick or broken family members in tow, it has seemed to me that they were staffed by dedicated and skilled people; but managed poorly. Like six year olds playing football, they were drawn to the new, sickest person, and failing to do things like discharge a now diagnosed person to make space. It seemed to me that that was a priority too, but wasn’t actioned as one. The place was full of people part way through a process.

    The clear solution? More NHS managers! In this case, proper shop floor type lean process merchants.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    Indeed.

    A realistic annual number might be 0.1% of the population with perhaps extra from specific obligations such as Ukraine or Hong Kong.
    Which, curiously enough, is roughly the current rate;


    In 2023, 67,337 applications for asylum were made in the UK, which related to 84,425 individuals (more than one applicant can be included in a single application)...

    In 2022, there were around 13 asylum applications for every 10,000 people living in the UK. Across the EU27 there were 22 asylum applications for every 10,000 people. The UK was therefore below the average among EU countries for asylum applications per head of population, ranking 19th among EU27 countries plus the UK on this measure.


    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

    By setting a number you would reduce the fear that the current 'anyone who qualifies' policy would allow the country to be overwhelmed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,186
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    This is doing the rounds on social media. How true is this ? If so, why ?

    https://x.com/aria_babu/status/1815403643748696540?s=61
    If someone has a visa and the qualification then they are entitled to apply.

    As I said the other day , fixing the random allocation to Foundation posts is a quick win to improve Junior doctors morale at little cost.
    Call me a Neon Fascist Imperialist Enslaver Of The Oppressed, but why not prioritise UK passport holders, then indefinite leave to remain etc?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,707
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    @Foxy , here:
    https://archive.ph/tUVeL#selection-2849.101-2855.8

    That's useful, but how did you find that, MattW?

  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    Yeah, along with those 28 million Romanians and Bulgarians who were once supposed to be coming here.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,809

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    I'm aware of that, but there's no pick that offers everything. Kelly probably offers as much as anyone else in terms of wide appeal and a real shot at Arizona's votes.
    AZ appears to be trending Dem in any case.

    The battleground continues to be the rust belt and a Dem ticket from the south-west sunshine states shows a lack of interest which Trump and Vance will exploit.
    I would be interested in people’s views on whether the VP can deliver a swing state in any event.

    I think I’m of the view it can, and can help with voter coalitions, but I suspect the individual in question really needs a strong personal following in their state. Eg, I hear Shapiro is very well liked, is that the case? Kelly seems decent but is there any card he holds that really makes him appeal to the people of Arizona (beyond the fact he’s won an election there?) is there an affinity with voters there?

    VP choices aren’t always very reliable at delivering swing states and I think I’m right in saying the majority of them don’t really seek to exploit a personal vote. Paul Ryan was from Wisconsin which I suppose was a swing state (which Romney lost). Kaine was from Virginia but if Clinton was losing Virginia she was going to lose the election anyway.

    All the others I can think of in this century haven’t been from swing states.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,103
    edited July 24
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
    We do need to have a better ED, after all private hospitals do not run EDs, indeed often they send their sickest patient to the NHS ones.

    When you have your heart attack there is nowhere else to go, so even the rich Alison Pearson needs it to be functional. It's not just about money, but there also needs to be better staff training and leadership.
    Yes - that's fair.

    However it's a highly abusive article, without knowing the circumstances of the people she is abusing. Having read all 2300 words, I think she's well out of order.

    She even dismissed "patients treated in order of acuity" (FFS):

    "You’ll be treated in order of acuity,” she said.
    Acuity? Which tier of useless NHS management came up with that buzzword to fob off the folk they are paid to care for?"

    I'm happy to accept her views of her personal experience. But utterly clueless about the rest.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL#selection-2849.0-4523.235
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    Indeed.

    A realistic annual number might be 0.1% of the population with perhaps extra from specific obligations such as Ukraine or Hong Kong.
    Which, curiously enough, is roughly the current rate;


    In 2023, 67,337 applications for asylum were made in the UK, which related to 84,425 individuals (more than one applicant can be included in a single application)...

    In 2022, there were around 13 asylum applications for every 10,000 people living in the UK. Across the EU27 there were 22 asylum applications for every 10,000 people. The UK was therefore below the average among EU countries for asylum applications per head of population, ranking 19th among EU27 countries plus the UK on this measure.


    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403/

    By setting a number you would reduce the fear that the current 'anyone who qualifies' policy would allow the country to be overwhelmed.
    How does that work - the people will have arrived in the country and we can't send them home.

    A number would just be a stick to hit people with if circumstances resulted in the number being exceeded.
  • biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
    We do need to have a better ED, after all private hospitals do not run EDs, indeed often they send their sickest patient to the NHS ones.

    When you have your heart attack there is nowhere else to go, so even the rich Alison Pearson needs it to be functional. It's not just about money, but there also needs to be better staff training and leadership.
    You tell me if I’m a million miles off, but on all my recent visits to A&E, with assorted sick or broken family members in tow, it has seemed to me that they were staffed by dedicated and skilled people; but managed poorly. Like six year olds playing football, they were drawn to the new, sickest person, and failing to do things like discharge a now diagnosed person to make space. It seemed to me that that was a priority too, but wasn’t actioned as one. The place was full of people part way through a process.

    The clear solution? More NHS managers! In this case, proper shop floor type lean process merchants.
    You mean a Hattie Jaques type Matron?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    NC is also in play.

    As I noted yesterday, the notion of VP candidates 'delivering' their state is a pretty flawed one. Any difference they're likely to make is fairly marginal; either the Presidential candidate has it, or she doesn't.

    The Democrats are pretty fortunate in having a good half dozen strong VP contenders. The Harris campaign will be doing targeted polling over the next week or so to try to see if any of them make a significant impact. That's more likely to decide the pick (along with whether of not she want the guy in question) than any of our strategy notions.
    I vaguely recall when Nate Silver used to be a data guy instead of a pundit and he reckoned there was a home state effect, but only for *small* states.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    This is doing the rounds on social media. How true is this ? If so, why ?

    https://x.com/aria_babu/status/1815403643748696540?s=61
    If someone has a visa and the qualification then they are entitled to apply.

    As I said the other day , fixing the random allocation to Foundation posts is a quick win to improve Junior doctors morale at little cost.
    What was the rationale for its introduction ?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,585
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can we please remember, reading that article, that Gavin Newsom cannot be Harris' running mate unless one of them switches registration from California.

    I'm not quite sure why people are still considering him as a possibility.

    If Harris is hedging on the Gaza conflict that probably also reduces Shapiro's chances, given how stridently pro-Israel he is.

    The North Carolina and Kentucky governors are fine politicians and hopefully have big futures, but are unlikely to deliver their states.

    Whitmer, ditto the first, but has ruled herself out.

    The obvious pick therefore is Kelly from Arizona. And Harris isn't exactly known for aggressive risk-taking.
    Even if Harris holds AZ, NV and GA she still needs either MI or PA.

    And Kelly offers nothing there.
    I'm aware of that, but there's no pick that offers everything. Kelly probably offers as much as anyone else in terms of wide appeal and a real shot at Arizona's votes.
    AZ appears to be trending Dem in any case.

    The battleground continues to be the rust belt and a Dem ticket from the south-west sunshine states shows a lack of interest which Trump and Vance will exploit.
    I'm not seeing the lack of interest.
    https://x.com/mmpadellan/status/1815824921626566945
    You think party faithful who go to a political rally are indicative of the wider electorate ???

    Whether its a Trump rally or a Harris rally it might be no more than a few dozen fanatics cheering themselves hoarse.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,035
    edited July 24
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Subtle change of tone. Illegal migration now defined as something more benign, irregular migration.

    I said before the election labour had an open door policy on the issue. Rather like the Tories. Let’s just make sure we have the infrastructure to support it as it’s going to happen anyway.

    https://x.com/ukhomeoffice/status/1815440711539384328?s=61

    Irregular migration is a more accurate term. It's not illegal to seek asylum, even if some wish it so.
    Yes, one of the many traps that the previous government got itself into was going on and on about illegal immigration when a very high percentage of the small boat people are found to qualify for asylum once they were processed. Under our current regime we are obliged to accept as many qualifying asylum seekers from around the world as can make it to our shores.
    In which case we should be told what the number that could potentially be.

    The alternative is to set a maximum number of qualifying asylum seekers to be allowed and if that was reached then its an immediate, if unfortunate, rejection of any beyond that.
    I reckon there are at least a couple of billion people living in complete shitholes in danger of their life who will qualify for asylum if they make it here. It's why I do not think the current asylum arrangements are sustainable.
    I agree that people living in complete shit holes would jump at the chance to live a better life, but sadly I don’t think there’s any way to prevent the people of Doncaster moving where they like in the UK.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,035
    edited July 24

    biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
    We do need to have a better ED, after all private hospitals do not run EDs, indeed often they send their sickest patient to the NHS ones.

    When you have your heart attack there is nowhere else to go, so even the rich Alison Pearson needs it to be functional. It's not just about money, but there also needs to be better staff training and leadership.
    You tell me if I’m a million miles off, but on all my recent visits to A&E, with assorted sick or broken family members in tow, it has seemed to me that they were staffed by dedicated and skilled people; but managed poorly. Like six year olds playing football, they were drawn to the new, sickest person, and failing to do things like discharge a now diagnosed person to make space. It seemed to me that that was a priority too, but wasn’t actioned as one. The place was full of people part way through a process.

    The clear solution? More NHS managers! In this case, proper shop floor type lean process merchants.
    You mean a Hattie Jaques type Matron?
    Nope. Non-clinical managers worried about the process. You don’t need to be a chef to manage a kitchen. Let clinicians be clinicians and not project managers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,839

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    This is doing the rounds on social media. How true is this ? If so, why ?

    https://x.com/aria_babu/status/1815403643748696540?s=61
    If someone has a visa and the qualification then they are entitled to apply.

    As I said the other day , fixing the random allocation to Foundation posts is a quick win to improve Junior doctors morale at little cost.
    Call me a Neon Fascist Imperialist Enslaver Of The Oppressed, but why not prioritise UK passport holders, then indefinite leave to remain etc?
    Good question but surely the urgent need is to increase the number of training places, an issue which Foxy has raised before. A similar issue is doctors not being able to find GP jobs at the same time as we have a shortage of GPs.

    Hopefully, the new Health Secretary, Wes Streeting, will sort these things out for cheap and easy wins before getting back to his day job of tracking down exactly what happened to Boris's 40 new hospitals.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,008
    edited July 24
    Foxy said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    Yes and 100% to do with staff indolence and 0% to do with funding.
    Evidence for that?

    Perhaps "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" by the Small Faces.
    Suggest you read the article. Extract:

    "Back at home, I texted my friend, a senior doctor at the hospital I had just left. “A vision of hell,” I wrote, “Hard to believe we live in a First World country.”

    “I share your assessment of A&E,” my friend replied, “and it is the same on the wards. Lack of empathy and concern for a fellow human being. Partly cultural. For some people it is just a job, a means to come to the UK and get more money than they can make at home. Language and cultural barriers don’t help.”

    "My doctor friend, a first-generation immigrant who has built a brilliant medical career here over 30 years, points out that the UK has failed to train enough of our own high-calibre doctors and nurses and so the NHS is hugely dependent on healthcare migrants from 214 countries, some of whom barely scrape the English language requirement (“I will ask my colleg”) and don’t relate to the patients"
    The article is paywalled, so I for one couldn't read it.

    I work with a lot of immigrant staff. Half my department qualified overseas, and I think it a slur with more than a hint of racism to suggest they do not care as much as British staff. There are bad examples in both groups. Shipman, Allit and Letby were all British trained.

    Waiting times in ED have gone up because of shortage of funding (4 hour target was last met in 2015) and working in such an overcrowded department is stressful and leads to burnout. This can breed a certain callouses. I remember myself hardening in such an environment.
    Good morning

    Over the last 9 months I have had an enormous amount of interaction with A & E, hospitals, consultants, and my GP practice and, whilst there are many problems expecially in A & E, I am wholly with @Foxy about the staff, consultants and doctors, and utterly reject @MisterBedfordshire unwarranted slurs about them
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,484

    DougSeal said:

    Member of country's biggest benefit scroungers does a Donald Trump and will not release his tax returns, what has he go to hide?

    Prince William refuses to reveal how much tax he pays

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2024/07/24/prince-william-refuses-to-reveal-how-much-tax-he-pays/

    We should all shame Prince William on here by confirming how much tax WE pay.

    Who wants to go first?
    We should adopt the Norwegian system where everyone's tax return was online.
    Why? If someone is paying the required amount of tax under the law then their earnings are absolutely nobody’s business. It’s just nosiness and feeds envy or jealousy.

    What I earn is between me and my clients and the taxman gets his cut - I don’t discuss what I earn with anyone to avoid any issues and frankly discussing wealth etc is pretty naff anyway.

    The only benefit of displaying everyone’s tax return might be in dissuading people who don’t earn millions from trying to fake it until they make it by stretching themselves thin on cars and homes they can’t really afford as it would just show everyone what a clown they are.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Frontline report from A&E in Telegraph.

    "After more than 10 hours of agony, I finally lay back in a big padded chair and felt the iron corset loosen as intravenous paracetamol entered my veins. In a place called, without apparent irony, the Rapid Treatment Room. "

    "The NHS is now the biggest reason to leave Britain; it’s scary. You would find better treatment almost anywhere else. How can we call ourselves a civilised country while people are left in pain? We can’t go on like this. We just can’t."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/07/23/no-compassion-left-in-the-nhs/

    I think we need to note that that is from Allison Pearson, who is somewhere between the Right of the Conservative Party, and the politics of Nigel Farage.

    I've listened to quite a few of the Telegraph's "Planet Normal" podcasts, and to me (others may differ) she comes across as a bit of a rantaloon.

    I'm not going to comment on the detailed events as I don't know enough detail of the whats and the whys, especially around other patients who may have been at different types of risk or the reasons for decisions made.

    However I don't think she is well placed to write this sort of extended philippic.

    https://archive.ph/tUVeL
    We do need to have a better ED, after all private hospitals do not run EDs, indeed often they send their sickest patient to the NHS ones.

    When you have your heart attack there is nowhere else to go, so even the rich Alison Pearson needs it to be functional. It's not just about money, but there also needs to be better staff training and leadership.
    There's no doubt that her experience, assuming it is broadly accurate, is being used by her to push a general point she makes a lot about migration. She has come across in recent times as basically a Faragist as far as I can see.

    But the actual reported experience chimes very well with stories I have heard about A&E from extended family/acquaintances etc.

    Twenty hours in A&E is the longest I have heard first hand from a person I know.
This discussion has been closed.