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Making your mind up – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,049
edited August 4 in General
Making your mind up – politicalbetting.com

Nigel Farage’s entry into the campaign helped solidify the voting intentions of Reform UK supporters, with those who had definitely made their minds up jumping from 45% to 54% after he returned as leader of the partyBy contrast, it wasn't until much later in the campaign that… pic.twitter.com/UnEeTtyuwE

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    edited July 20
    First?

    Oh what an excellent start to the weekend.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,727
    OT,

    It was odd timing for all sorts of reasons. They may have been a rate cut by BOE which would have been welcomed by mortgage holders. Rwanda flights *may* have taken off by then etc.

    It makes sense if there was going to be a leadership challenge and Rishi wanted to avoid that by sneakily calling an election. The cabinet should have challenged him but failed to do so or did not succeed enough. This might also explain why a number of cabinet ministers (Hunt for example) failed to campaign on the national level focussing on their own seats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,038
    Reform were polling over 10% even before Farage's return, his becoming leader just got them closer to 15%
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,103
    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    Making Your Mind Up.

    Bucks Fizz.

    Inspired work.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    Are you suggesting he’s a guy, or that he’s Fawkesing the whole thing up?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    edited July 20
    Taking the Sixth (place).

    "Proctologist" is rather kind.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,539

    Making Your Mind Up.

    Bucks Fizz.

    Inspired work.

    Hurrah, somebody spotted my subtle musical reference.
  • FPT
    darkage said:

    I see the last Conservative government scrapped the old medical student selection process (which was based in merit) and replaced it with some odd random process to ensure “better diversity”.

    https://x.com/_cjevanss/status/1813990323560796574?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg

    On the face of it, totally batshit.

    And exactly the opposite of what Tories should be doing. Which is why Farage won a seat
    Rory Stewart was on Triggernometry earlier in the month talking about some of his experiences with the civil service in the Foreign Office. His Syria team, who were advising him on the civil war at the time, were relocated to East Kilbride; and they weren't allowed to fly to London to attend briefings because of a 'carbon audit'. The expert on Libya was a 'job share' post, so a different person for half of the week. Obviously the government were not able to correct any of this, despite being the government.

    The reality is that for many people, Trump and Farage offer a more coherant view of the world than the prevailing liberal/left 'woke establishment' worldview. Even if you percieve the problem and the dangers of right wing populism, there is a strong argument that the system needs to be massively disrupted to be more effective.
    They correctly deduce that the system is malfunctioning and that the politicians are too feeble, corrupt or wedded to the concepts that cause above problems (so for example support the laws/rules that require carbon audits and allow a key post to be shared by two people hundreds of miles from the minister rather than repealing them in short order.

    The problem is that when the political class becomes rotten, there isn't a spare competent political class, so people turn to what there is.

    Personally I think the UK civil service and public sector is irreformable** and Labour for all their good intentions are wedded to technocratic regulation so will make things worse.

    It will come to a head when the government cannot shift gilts, so can no longer fund their debts. It won't be fun though, especially in the cities.

    ** There are some really good people in the public sector, islands of hardworking competence, but they are tied down gulliver like by unthinking bureacracy which many who wouldn't last five minutes in a private sector job hide behind to avoid doing a great deal.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    HYUFD said:

    Reform were polling over 10% even before Farage's return, his becoming leader just got them closer to 15%

    If only the Tories had found a replacement leader who could have increased their vote share by half as much again, that person would still be PM.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632

    Making Your Mind Up.

    Bucks Fizz.

    Inspired work.

    Hurrah, somebody spotted my subtle musical reference.
    Well, your musical reference anyway.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    A Bonfire of the Inanities?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,212

    HYUFD said:

    Reform were polling over 10% even before Farage's return, his becoming leader just got them closer to 15%

    If only the Tories had found a replacement leader who could have increased their vote share by half as much again, that person would still be PM.
    There was no such person. Voters had had enough of the Tories, irrespective of the specific leader.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.
  • Presumably the Libdem and Green voters were pondering whether to vote for said parties or vote tactically for Labour and late on, once the direction of travel was obvious decided Labour would manage ok so voted Libdem/Green.

    No doubt some were trying to decide whether to vote Libdem or Green.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    MattW said:

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    A Bonfire of the Inanities?
    Igniting Biden and Trump might be one way to resolve the mess, but it seems a rather drastic one.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,554
    SMukesh said:

    OT,

    It was odd timing for all sorts of reasons. They may have been a rate cut by BOE which would have been welcomed by mortgage holders. Rwanda flights *may* have taken off by then etc.

    It makes sense if there was going to be a leadership challenge and Rishi wanted to avoid that by sneakily calling an election. The cabinet should have challenged him but failed to do so or did not succeed enough. This might also explain why a number of cabinet ministers (Hunt for example) failed to campaign on the national level focussing on their own seats.

    I'd focus on the other side of the calculation.

    Had Rishi tried to hang on until the autumn, there were lots of known-unknown but probably negatives.

    We've seen a couple already. The prisons filling up. The pay reviews coming out expensive. I would add the likelihood that Rwanda worked less well in reality than in theory.

    Plenty of people here have been pointing out the poo leaking from the various nappies for a while. Given that, and the gradual downward drift in Conservative ratings over the last couple of years, what was gained by going in July not May? And what was expected to be gained?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869

    Presumably the Libdem and Green voters were pondering whether to vote for said parties or vote tactically for Labour and late on, once the direction of travel was obvious decided Labour would manage ok so voted Libdem/Green.

    No doubt some were trying to decide whether to vote Libdem or Green.

    And that is probably the one bit of the Tory campaign strategy that was a success:

    Labour are home and hosed, so you can vote Green (or someone else, or stay at home) without it risking us lot winning.

    This, combined with the chunky vote for "Independents" in certain areas, helped depress the Labour vote share (and turnout), but appears to have had minimal effect in saving seats for the Tories.
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,727

    SMukesh said:

    OT,

    It was odd timing for all sorts of reasons. They may have been a rate cut by BOE which would have been welcomed by mortgage holders. Rwanda flights *may* have taken off by then etc.

    It makes sense if there was going to be a leadership challenge and Rishi wanted to avoid that by sneakily calling an election. The cabinet should have challenged him but failed to do so or did not succeed enough. This might also explain why a number of cabinet ministers (Hunt for example) failed to campaign on the national level focussing on their own seats.

    I'd focus on the other side of the calculation.

    Had Rishi tried to hang on until the autumn, there were lots of known-unknown but probably negatives.

    We've seen a couple already. The prisons filling up. The pay reviews coming out expensive. I would add the likelihood that Rwanda worked less well in reality than in theory.

    Plenty of people here have been pointing out the poo leaking from the various nappies for a while. Given that, and the gradual downward drift in Conservative ratings over the last couple of years, what was gained by going in July not May? And what was expected to be gained?
    Fair point. But one got the feeling that their support was down to the bone anyway. What did they have to lose by waiting for something to turn up? As a minimum, hordes of CON MP`s who were going to lose their seats would have appreciated a few more payslips.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,554
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    A Bonfire of the Inanities?
    Igniting Biden and Trump might be one way to resolve the mess, but it seems a rather drastic one.
    You can't just set fire to DJT.

    Goodness only knows what chemicals you would be releasing into the atmosphere.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20
    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    Making Your Mind Up.

    Bucks Fizz.

    Inspired work.

    Hurrah, somebody spotted my subtle musical reference.
    You could have set out your expectations for the future of the common currency. Your Euro vision.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,476

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    SMukesh said:

    SMukesh said:

    OT,

    It was odd timing for all sorts of reasons. They may have been a rate cut by BOE which would have been welcomed by mortgage holders. Rwanda flights *may* have taken off by then etc.

    It makes sense if there was going to be a leadership challenge and Rishi wanted to avoid that by sneakily calling an election. The cabinet should have challenged him but failed to do so or did not succeed enough. This might also explain why a number of cabinet ministers (Hunt for example) failed to campaign on the national level focussing on their own seats.

    I'd focus on the other side of the calculation.

    Had Rishi tried to hang on until the autumn, there were lots of known-unknown but probably negatives.

    We've seen a couple already. The prisons filling up. The pay reviews coming out expensive. I would add the likelihood that Rwanda worked less well in reality than in theory.

    Plenty of people here have been pointing out the poo leaking from the various nappies for a while. Given that, and the gradual downward drift in Conservative ratings over the last couple of years, what was gained by going in July not May? And what was expected to be gained?
    Fair point. But one got the feeling that their support was down to the bone anyway. What did they have to lose by waiting for something to turn up? As a minimum, hordes of CON MP`s who were going to lose their seats would have appreciated a few more payslips.
    Of course, Sir Philip Davies partly made up for the lack of payslips with a betting slip.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,103

    SMukesh said:

    OT,

    It was odd timing for all sorts of reasons. They may have been a rate cut by BOE which would have been welcomed by mortgage holders. Rwanda flights *may* have taken off by then etc.

    It makes sense if there was going to be a leadership challenge and Rishi wanted to avoid that by sneakily calling an election. The cabinet should have challenged him but failed to do so or did not succeed enough. This might also explain why a number of cabinet ministers (Hunt for example) failed to campaign on the national level focussing on their own seats.

    I'd focus on the other side of the calculation.

    Had Rishi tried to hang on until the autumn, there were lots of known-unknown but probably negatives.

    We've seen a couple already. The prisons filling up. The pay reviews coming out expensive. I would add the likelihood that Rwanda worked less well in reality than in theory.

    Plenty of people here have been pointing out the poo leaking from the various nappies for a while. Given that, and the gradual downward drift in Conservative ratings over the last couple of years, what was gained by going in July not May? And what was expected to be gained?
    Trouble with that sort of analysis is that on the one hand, if Rishi wanted to go early then May, to tie in with the locals, made more sense. And while going long meant risking known unknowns, they were also known when Rishi ruled out May and June.

    No, something must have happened to spook Rishi into going earlier than planned, because all logic pointed to an autumn or even winter campaign.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    A Bonfire of the Inanities?
    Igniting Biden and Trump might be one way to resolve the mess, but it seems a rather drastic one.
    You can't just set fire to DJT.

    Goodness only knows what chemicals you would be releasing into the atmosphere.
    Ass-bestos.
  • Presumably the Libdem and Green voters were pondering whether to vote for said parties or vote tactically for Labour and late on, once the direction of travel was obvious decided Labour would manage ok so voted Libdem/Green.

    No doubt some were trying to decide whether to vote Libdem or Green.

    And that is probably the one bit of the Tory campaign strategy that was a success:

    Labour are home and hosed, so you can vote Green (or someone else, or stay at home) without it risking us lot winning.

    This, combined with the chunky vote for "Independents" in certain areas, helped depress the Labour vote share (and turnout), but appears to have had minimal effect in saving seats for the Tories.
    That was the basis of my speculative £10 on NOM at 20-1.

    All it did though was increase Labours vote efficiency to ridiculous levels. Betting on Labours share of the vote would have been more rewarding which some did very well on.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,539

    Making Your Mind Up.

    Bucks Fizz.

    Inspired work.

    Hurrah, somebody spotted my subtle musical reference.
    You could have set out your expectations for the future of the common currency. Your Euro vision.
    I am of the view when we rejoin the EU one of the main reasons is that Brits will want to join the Euro.

    In the past when cash was king people saw the pound in their pocket and didn't want to lose that, now that we are heading to rightly becoming a cashless society then support for the joining the Euro will surge.

    In your banking app whether it shows 2,000 pounds in your account or 2,000 Euros will make no difference.

    I propose putting Edward Heath on front of the first UK 10 Euro note.

    And with that, I bid you adieu until this evening.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,103
    OT the National Lottery guessers have added a redirect to a maintenance page that appears not to exist.
    https://www.cdn-national-lottery.co.uk/maintenance.html
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,762

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    A Bonfire of the Inanities?
    Igniting Biden and Trump might be one way to resolve the mess, but it seems a rather drastic one.
    You can't just set fire to DJT.

    Goodness only knows what chemicals you would be releasing into the atmosphere.
    Disinfectant from his Covid jags, for a start.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,229

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,908
    edited July 20
    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    I think Sunak's "supermajority" line had a significant effect on turnout for Labour voters in their safer seats. That YouGov poll does not capture movements between "I will definitely vote Labour and won't change my mind" and "I will definitely not vote and won't change my mind". Nor a switch from guaranteed Labour voters to Green voters when the size of the majority became apparent - people were talking about the Tories on less than 50 seats!

    I'm not sure about TSE's conclusion either. If we blithely assume that Tory and Reform voters are not fungible, then Farage's entry only cost them what, 2 or 3 seats? That isn't true of course, with Conservative to Reform switchers leaving Labour/LD to come through the middle in some constituencies. But it would be wrong to add the Reform and Tory totals up and assign Farage all the blame.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    edited July 20

    Presumably the Libdem and Green voters were pondering whether to vote for said parties or vote tactically for Labour and late on, once the direction of travel was obvious decided Labour would manage ok so voted Libdem/Green.

    No doubt some were trying to decide whether to vote Libdem or Green.

    And that is probably the one bit of the Tory campaign strategy that was a success:

    Labour are home and hosed, so you can vote Green (or someone else, or stay at home) without it risking us lot winning.

    This, combined with the chunky vote for "Independents" in certain areas, helped depress the Labour vote share (and turnout), but appears to have had minimal effect in saving seats for the Tories.
    That was the basis of my speculative £10 on NOM at 20-1.

    All it did though was increase Labours vote efficiency to ridiculous levels. Betting on Labours share of the vote would have been more rewarding which some did very well on.

    Plus BJO's successful "Fewer votes than Jezza" bet. A very shrewd punt.
  • It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Here is some footage of the children literally being dragged out of their house by the police.

    https://x.com/JerryHicksUnite/status/1814543692218126785?t=JfM9jQ7Ema55HOl7P9BMZA&s=19
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    OT. After the International courts ruling that Israel IS an apartheid State it will be interesting to see whether keir Starmer now offers those sacked in the labour Party for saying just that an apology and possibly some restitution.

    After David Lammys welcome statement yesterday it looks like they're moving in the right direction and this would show the sort of humility that I'm sure most Labour supporters would welcome
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,539
    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,524
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, your eagerness to throw away cash is matched only by your poor judgement regarding Hannibal and Caesar.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,426

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    As I understand it, the parents went out, leaving the children to care for themselves.

    One of the children had an accident - publicly fell from a balcony/window. At the hospital all the other children denied knowledge of everything and it took a while to find the parents.

    So social services took the view that it was an unsafe environment.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,524
    Mr. Eagles, fun fact: at school, my Physics teacher held the view that one of the optimal places for a nuclear strike was about half a mile from my house.

    I'm hoping that's near enough for instant death, rather than the more horrid, lingering ones that people get further from the centre of a nuclear detonation.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    Bomb hits Chatham causing £100 million of improvement.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,539

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, your eagerness to throw away cash is matched only by your poor judgement regarding Hannibal and Caesar.

    Cash is exclusively used by criminals, druggies, and hookers.

    Plus, cash carries germs, why do you think the real move to contactless and things like Apple pay accelerated during the pandemic.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,965
    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    The one Reform voter I slightly know was actually a candidate for the party in the election. He used to be a hard working and I think respected Conservative councillor. He presumably had to disavow his previous activity when he stood for Reform, deleted his social media and so on. Which I think is a bit sad.
  • rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,361
    Good morning PBers. Should be an interesting day at Trent Bridge.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,524
    Mr. Eagles, if you want to reduce your chances of infection then it's time for you to take a vow of chastity.

    Cash is used by those who favour it, such as those who find it easier to keep within spending limits when the money isn't ephemeral. It's also handy when technology inevitably fails now and then. Plus, it's nice not having transactions tracked constantly.
  • So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    Isn't that just a Russian TV station speculating using Cold War data.

    Or is something interesting based at Sheerness/Chatham that isn't widely known about.

    A bit unfortunate if someone nukes the isle of Sheppey though. Enough people there with six fingers without radiation mutations. Still it will give them a chance to rebuild the churches with all the seats on one side, which will help with local wedding logistics.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,539

    Mr. Eagles, fun fact: at school, my Physics teacher held the view that one of the optimal places for a nuclear strike was about half a mile from my house.

    I'm hoping that's near enough for instant death, rather than the more horrid, lingering ones that people get further from the centre of a nuclear detonation.

    You should watch the film Threads.

    Set in Sheffield after a nuclear war, life will be a blast, obviously we Sheffielders are made of sterner stuff than you Leeds folk.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Calling the election for 4th July is one of the great marketing ploys of our time, as we shall all be buying their memoirs to find out what the flip they were thinking.

    Such a brilliant idea that President Biden has nicked it to sell his memoirs and will hold the election on bonfire night.

    A Bonfire of the Inanities?
    Igniting Biden and Trump might be one way to resolve the mess, but it seems a rather drastic one.
    You can't just set fire to DJT.

    Goodness only knows what chemicals you would be releasing into the atmosphere.
    Agent Orange?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    edited July 20
    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    I know several in my friends / neighbours network I discussed it with.

    In this group it has elements of:

    - Would vote Tory but the party just vanished from the Election, from normal Tory supporters.
    - Well-off people (eg 2 business neighbours in £600-700k houses which are top 1-2% for here) not wanting Labour in because of what they think will happen to their taxes, plus a bit of 'but the scroungers'.
    - Anti-immigration. As I see it Lab are also anti-immigration, so this may be swallowing the Farage Kool Aid.
    - Personal note for Lee Anderson. This is an entire extended family, around a particular issue he is working on, and basically the entire street where the grandparents live.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,476

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    It's hilarious. The Russians really are little babies; pathetic that they cannot get their way so they'll scream and scream until the parents (the rest of the civilised world) gives in.

    And some so want to give in to the tantrums.

    Shame on those who want to give in to them.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,524
    Mr. Eagles, your envy of the glorious Loiners is plain to see.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,426

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    If the Russians nuke Chatham, are they liable for CGT for the increase in land values?
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    I’m guessing some Russian oligarch has investments in Medway and wishes to increase the valuation..
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    edited July 20

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    I have not seen a comprehensive analysis, but early on in their war they were wuite often noted as hitting 'targets' in Ukraine that had been targets decades before but had been converted to civilian use such as houses, schools etc. I've always presumed it was old targeting databases that had not been updated.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,426

    Mr. Eagles, fun fact: at school, my Physics teacher held the view that one of the optimal places for a nuclear strike was about half a mile from my house.

    I'm hoping that's near enough for instant death, rather than the more horrid, lingering ones that people get further from the centre of a nuclear detonation.

    Further fun fact - being inside the core of fireball is possibly the only humane way to die.

    You would be decomposed into your component atoms, and this would happen in less time that the nervous system can react. Guaranteed no pain, or even awareness of what happened.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    edited July 20
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    I know several in my friends / neighbours network I discussed it with.

    In this group it has elements of:

    - Would vote Tory but the party just vanished from the Election, from normal Tory supporters.
    - Well-off people (eg 2 business neighbours in £600-700k houses which are top 1-2% for here) not wanting Labour in because of what they think will happen to their taxes, plus a bit of 'but the scroungers'.
    - Anti-immigration. As I see it Lab are also anti-immigration, so this may be swallowing the Farage Kool Aid.
    - Personal note for Lee Anderson. This is an entire extended family, around a particular issue he is working on, and basically the entire street where the grandparents live.
    I'm not having a good typing day. Bugger. Note/vote.

    Why are N and V only two apart on my keyboard?

    I blame Microsoft. Or Canada.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,440

    Mr. Eagles, fun fact: at school, my Physics teacher held the view that one of the optimal places for a nuclear strike was about half a mile from my house.

    I'm hoping that's near enough for instant death, rather than the more horrid, lingering ones that people get further from the centre of a nuclear detonation.

    Are you near the golf balls ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,154
    I'M SO GLAD RISHI SUNAK HELD AN EARLY ELECTION TO WRONGFOOT REFORM!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,471

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    If the Russians nuke Chatham, are they liable for CGT for the increase in land values?
    Ouch.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    The 2024 Labour campaign did have an effect. The timid Ming vase strategy caused Labour to shed millions of votes. It was a dire campaign from start to finish, totally lacking in ambition. Labour won because the Conservatives were so dire, yet with a GB wide vote vote share of just 35% Labour very nearly blew it in the space of just 6 weeks.

    It's worth comparing the Labour campaigns of 2017 (not 2019!) with 2024. In both campaigns, the Conservatives messed up badly (social care in 2017, D day etc in 2024.) In both campaigns, Brexit wasn't an issue either (much as the Conservatives tried to make it one.) So the door was open to Labour in both campaigns.

    Yet in 2017, during the campaign Labour's polling increased by 15% (from 26% to 41%) whereas in 2024 Labour's share fell by 10% (from about 45% to 35%).

    The difference was that in 2017, Labour set out ambitious plans, together with a costed programme of how it was going to be paid for that was plausible enough to reassure rather than scare voters off. Now how plausible that funding programme was in reality was another thing of course, but the fact is that plenty of people were prepared to vote for it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,154

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,154

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    I kind of feel chuffed that we get special attention as their traditional enemy.

    I mean, I tend to get too distracted by France.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,154

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    It's hilarious. The Russians really are little babies; pathetic that they cannot get their way so they'll scream and scream until the parents (the rest of the civilised world) gives in.

    And some so want to give in to the tantrums.

    Shame on those who want to give in to them.
    I did laugh at Chatham Historic Dockyard.

    I hear Beaulieu Motor Museum, the Museum of Army Flying and Beamish are also on their list.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,978

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    It's hilarious. The Russians really are little babies; pathetic that they cannot get their way so they'll scream and scream until the parents (the rest of the civilised world) gives in.

    And some so want to give in to the tantrums.

    Shame on those who want to give in to them.
    I would not describe Russia as part of the civilized world in any form.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,471
    Does the i's quiz writer John Clarke follow this blog? The other day I posted a jokey comment about something bonkers that was going on with the comment - "we're not in Kansas anymore."

    This Saturday's quiz has a question about the quote.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,476

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Has Farage apologised for blaming people from the subcontinent?

    A silly question, I know.

    And yet that utter piece of filth is in America, kowtowing to the madmen over there who might form the next administration, poisoning their minds with his false and crap views of what is going on over here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Then all the sc*m of Harehills joined in. The f******* who were loading the bus with combustible material didn't look Romany, they looked to be the same ethnicity as me.

    B******* will be b******* irrespective of creed or colour.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,456
    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    Considering Starmer won 411 MPs, a net gain of 211, the largest net gain in centuries, I think its very bizarre to say his strategy failed.

    For every vote Starmer lost to Hamas-backing independents, or Corbyn-backing Greens (often the same people to be fair), he's gained much more back.

    Worth remembering that each vote he wins from an ex-Conservative (like myself) is worth two votes lost to the Greens/Hamas Independents.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879

    Does the i's quiz writer John Clarke follow this blog? The other day I posted a jokey comment about something bonkers that was going on with the comment - "we're not in Kansas anymore."

    This Saturday's quiz has a question about the quote.

    The Independent has to get some reputable content from somewhere.

    (And I can be quoted on that :smile: )
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869

    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    The 2024 Labour campaign did have an effect. The timid Ming vase strategy caused Labour to shed millions of votes. It was a dire campaign from start to finish, totally lacking in ambition. Labour won because the Conservatives were so dire, yet with a GB wide vote vote share of just 35% Labour very nearly blew it in the space of just 6 weeks.

    It's worth comparing the Labour campaigns of 2017 (not 2019!) with 2024. In both campaigns, the Conservatives messed up badly (social care in 2017, D day etc in 2024.) In both campaigns, Brexit wasn't an issue either (much as the Conservatives tried to make it one.) So the door was open to Labour in both campaigns.

    Yet in 2017, during the campaign Labour's polling increased by 15% (from 26% to 41%) whereas in 2024 Labour's share fell by 10% (from about 45% to 35%).

    The difference was that in 2017, Labour set out ambitious plans, together with a costed programme of how it was going to be paid for that was plausible enough to reassure rather than scare voters off. Now how plausible that funding programme was in reality was another thing of course, but the fact is that plenty of people were prepared to vote for it.
    In 2017 we lost. This year we won.

    Everything else is secondary.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,027
    Andy_JS said:

    Good morning PBers. Should be an interesting day at Trent Bridge.

    I spent most of yesterday listening to the commentary. Not a particularly remarkable day's play, but a thoroughly entertaining day's commentary. Amongst otger things I learned quite a bit about West Indies 20th century history. I had no idea that captains of the West Indies were always white until Frank Worral (nor indeed that so many other jobs were traditionally held by white people until the 1950s - the white population of the West Indies must have been substantial.)

    Also good to see some West Indian batsmen batting like test cricketers. The WI team is part of the iconography of cricket and it makes me sad to see them fail too often.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    edited July 20
    Does anyone have a view on the current quality of Unherd?

    I visited to have a look at an article that sounds credible: Britain’s weirdest constituency - Nick Clegg's old seat throws up a litany of surprises
    https://archive.ph/cLzMG

    but it seems to have all kind of weird Trumpish things there, too. Example:
    The 2024 political war is just beginning - The Democratic party has rigged the system
    https://archive.ph/Abadz

    Is it just a smorgasboard now?
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 983

    DavidL said:

    The impression I got was that the various campaigns had almost no effect at all, with the possible exception of Ed Davey whose various antics got attention for the Lib Dems and really boosted their performance well beyond what was expected.

    Starmer had his ming vase strategy, desperate to make no mistakes and retain the lead he had been given. Either the polling was seriously wrong or he failed in this because the Labour vote was 6-7% below what the polls were telling us but he succeeded in his main object of a substantial majority.

    Sunak was simply not being listened to. He had that silly National Service idea but basically he was largely ignored, despite some quite good economic news during the campaign. I find the chart surprising in that context, the strong impression that i had throughout was that people had made up their minds that the Tories were gonners.

    Swinney did as well in elections as he usually does but the SNP faced a similar problem to the Tories. They have been in government too long to blame anyone else and people are tired of them.

    I confess I really don't know anyone who votes Reform. The relative failure of their campaign compared to that of the Lib Dems shows they have a lot to learn about how to be effective in a FPTP system, something Farage has never mastered.

    The 2024 Labour campaign did have an effect. The timid Ming vase strategy caused Labour to shed millions of votes. It was a dire campaign from start to finish, totally lacking in ambition. Labour won because the Conservatives were so dire, yet with a GB wide vote vote share of just 35% Labour very nearly blew it in the space of just 6 weeks.

    It's worth comparing the Labour campaigns of 2017 (not 2019!) with 2024. In both campaigns, the Conservatives messed up badly (social care in 2017, D day etc in 2024.) In both campaigns, Brexit wasn't an issue either (much as the Conservatives tried to make it one.) So the door was open to Labour in both campaigns.

    Yet in 2017, during the campaign Labour's polling increased by 15% (from 26% to 41%) whereas in 2024 Labour's share fell by 10% (from about 45% to 35%).

    The difference was that in 2017, Labour set out ambitious plans, together with a costed programme of how it was going to be paid for that was plausible enough to reassure rather than scare voters off. Now how plausible that funding programme was in reality was another thing of course, but the fact is that plenty of people were prepared to vote for it.
    But the voters who had told the pollsters that that they would vote Labour didn't bother to vote. The result was a foregone conclusion in their constituency or they couldn't find their passport (they had left it on the scanner)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,471
    MattW said:

    Does the i's quiz writer John Clarke follow this blog? The other day I posted a jokey comment about something bonkers that was going on with the comment - "we're not in Kansas anymore."

    This Saturday's quiz has a question about the quote.

    The Independent has to get some reputable content from somewhere.

    (And I can be quoted on that :smile: )
    LOL. But to be pedantic - the i newspaper is now not related to the Independent. It is now part of the Daily Mail stable.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Then all the sc*m of Harehills joined in. The f******* who were loading the bus with combustible material didn't look Romany, they looked to be the same ethnicity as me.

    B******* will be b******* irrespective of creed or colour.
    Perhaps it is the Irish in me, but my instincts on seeing agents of the British state dragging away peoples children are to side with the demonstrators.

    I remember years ago when we had young kids being advised never to take them to hospital with an injury unless it was of a nature that meant there was no choice, as you would immediately be under suspicion and deemed guilty until proven innocent.

    In their case the SS inquisition abruptly ended when the husband got home from work and introduced himself, while still wearing his police inspectors uniform.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,229

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    MattW said:

    Does anyone have a view on the current quality of Unherd?

    I visited to have a look at an article that sounds credible: Britain’s weirdest constituency - Nick Clegg's old seat throws up a litany of surprises
    https://archive.ph/cLzMG

    but it seems to have all kind of weird Trumpish things there, too.

    Is it just a smorgasboard?

    It’s definitely changed its tone and content over the past year to a more Trumpish (for want of a better phrase) viewpoint.

    I actually don’t look at it that often nowadays..
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    "Nigel Farage’s entry into the campaign helped solidify the voting intentions of Reform UK supporters, with those who had definitely made their minds up jumping from 45% to 54% after he returned as leader of the party By contrast, it wasn’t until much later in the campaign that many Lib Dem and Green supporters had definitely made their minds up"

    Explained surely by Lib Dems and Green supporters being more likely to be voting tactically so would wait till the last possible moment. Faragists after his resurrection had nowhere else they could possibly want to go.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,965

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    Russia is destroying Ukraine because of something that happened in the eighth century. This is nothing.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,696

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Then all the sc*m of Harehills joined in. The f******* who were loading the bus with combustible material didn't look Romany, they looked to be the same ethnicity as me.

    B******* will be b******* irrespective of creed or colour.
    Perhaps it is the Irish in me, but my instincts on seeing agents of the British state dragging away peoples children are to side with the demonstrators.

    I remember years ago when we had young kids being advised never to take them to hospital with an injury unless it was of a nature that meant there was no choice, as you would immediately be under suspicion and deemed guilty until proven innocent.
    I think it went beyond that incident fairly quickly. The Green (Gaza) MP was interviewed at the scene, mentioning the police's inability to speak other languages than English as a factor in their failure to calm things down. Disturbances in London have been attributed to spillover from a feud taking place in Bangladesh. As Nigel Farage rightly said (to much outrage) we have imported the battles of the subcontinent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,426

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    If the Russians nuke Chatham, are they liable for CGT for the increase in land values?
    Ouch.
    That plus a mass release of Paxilon Hydrochlorate could really do something for the area.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good morning PBers. Should be an interesting day at Trent Bridge.

    I spent most of yesterday listening to the commentary. Not a particularly remarkable day's play, but a thoroughly entertaining day's commentary. Amongst otger things I learned quite a bit about West Indies 20th century history. I had no idea that captains of the West Indies were always white until Frank Worral (nor indeed that so many other jobs were traditionally held by white people until the 1950s - the white population of the West Indies must have been substantial.)

    Also good to see some West Indian batsmen batting like test cricketers. The WI team is part of the iconography of cricket and it makes me sad to see them fail too often.
    That surely has much to do with the countries in the West Indies still being in the British Empire until at least the 1960s, and many not gaining independence until the 1970s-1980s?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796

    I'M SO GLAD RISHI SUNAK HELD AN EARLY ELECTION TO WRONGFOOT REFORM!!

    I'm sure we all are. The country feels better already! A very happy accident
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Does anyone have a view on the current quality of Unherd?

    I visited to have a look at an article that sounds credible: Britain’s weirdest constituency - Nick Clegg's old seat throws up a litany of surprises
    https://archive.ph/cLzMG

    but it seems to have all kind of weird Trumpish things there, too.

    Is it just a smorgasboard?

    It’s definitely changed its tone and

    content over the past year to a more Trumpish (for want of a better phrase) viewpoint.

    I actually don’t look at it that often nowadays..
    There's a major problem at the moment, of the lack of middke-ground opinion sources, that are not extremely partisan, either on the left or
    right. For a while Unherd served as a good sort of centre-right counterpart, to the London Review of Books on the centre-left, but now it seems to be moving to the polarisation trend.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,426

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Has Farage apologised for blaming people from the subcontinent?

    A silly question, I know.

    And yet that utter piece of filth is in America, kowtowing to the madmen over there who might form the next administration, poisoning their minds with his false and crap views of what is going on over here.
    A number of the usual suspects joined in - known trouble makers of various ethnicities.

    From the sub-culture known as Violent Shitheads.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796

    Mr. Eagles, fun fact: at school, my Physics teacher held the view that one of the optimal places for a nuclear strike was about half a mile from my house.

    I'm hoping that's near enough for instant death, rather than the more horrid, lingering ones that people get further from the centre of a nuclear detonation.

    You live on the outskirts of Hartlepool?
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

  • kinabalu said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Then all the sc*m of Harehills joined in. The f******* who were loading the bus with combustible material didn't look Romany, they looked to be the same ethnicity as me.

    B******* will be b******* irrespective of creed or colour.
    Perhaps it is the Irish in me, but my instincts on seeing agents of the British state dragging away peoples children are to side with the demonstrators.

    I remember years ago when we had young kids being advised never to take them to hospital with an injury unless it was of a nature that meant there was no choice, as you would immediately be under suspicion and deemed guilty until proven innocent.

    In their case the SS inquisition abruptly ended when the husband got home from work and introduced himself, while still wearing his police inspectors uniform.
    Then we get one of those cases where a child suffers/dies due to parental abuse and everyone piles in with "wtf were social services? wtf are we paying them for?"
    The media and publicity hungry politicians with utopian "this must never be allowed to happen again" views, and worse, convinced that with enough regulation and process it can be prevented from ever happening again, are a major part of the problem, and cause untold misery.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 954

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Not to mention possible institutional racial bias against Roma Gypsy communities.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,879
    edited July 20
    An interesting listen for today from Drachinifel.

    A conversation about Frederick Rutland, who was the first RAF combat pilot at sea at the Battle of Jutland. With what I think is new material about his later career as a Japanese spy. Interesting stuff about early seaplane carriers (ie put planes in the sea with a crane, before they had catapults or flight decks).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwbapYMutEc
    (Just under an hour.)
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,310
    FF43 said:

    So Russia has updated its list of European targets in the event of a nuclear war.

    One of the targets is Chatham Dockyard.

    I mean I know I hold a grudge like a Sicilian but targeting Chatham Dockyard because of something that happened in the eighteenth century is special.

    https://x.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1813553263335309426

    Russia is destroying Ukraine because of something that happened in the eighth century. This is nothing.
    Israel joins the chat:

    Judea and Samarra
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,212
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    There are about 100k children in care in the UK, but that number doesn’t say how long they’ve been in care or whether they were taken into protection vs voluntarily put in care.

    The best figure I could find was: “Between local authorities, Hill observed, the rate at which children are removed from their families ranges from 30 per 10,000 to 180 per 10,000.” That’s from an 8-year old Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/26/does-britain-take-too-many-children-into-care

    A care order has to be issued by a court, so, yes, a judge is involved.

    Yes, you can appeal a care order.
  • It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Then all the sc*m of Harehills joined in. The f******* who were loading the bus with combustible material didn't look Romany, they looked to be the same ethnicity as me.

    B******* will be b******* irrespective of creed or colour.
    Perhaps it is the Irish in me, but my instincts on seeing agents of the British state dragging away peoples children are to side with the demonstrators.

    I remember years ago when we had young kids being advised never to take them to hospital with an injury unless it was of a nature that meant there was no choice, as you would immediately be under suspicion and deemed guilty until proven innocent.

    In their case the SS inquisition abruptly ended when the husband got home from work and introduced himself, while still wearing his police inspectors uniform.
    My wife and I were for many years involved as parent and child (and emergency placement) foster carers. The reality of how children are treated/ abused within the family environment pushes the boundaries of credulity.

    I had no idea how certain people behaved, or even lived. From believing all children were always safer within the family, I no longer hold that view. Mind you some of the foster carers I met weren't qualified to look after small rodents let alone children.

    Edit; do you not believe a Police Inspector capable of beating the **** out of his children?
    I also think that with some of the dreadful things they see, some do then start seeing it around every corner. Especially if they have gone into it for idealistic reasons (eg bad experiences themselves and dont want it to happen to anyone else).
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,553
    I'm trying to think of the disastrous cases that have been made public of children being taken into care by mistake?

    Isn't it far more common that the social services don't act? I find Mister Bedfordshire's take on this rather odd.

    As for it being all ethnicities involved, well yeah. Doesn't tell us a huge amount on its own.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,776
    If Biden does not go in the next few days, then he's probably destroyed the Democrats' chances in November.

    And done severe damage to my Betfair book.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,696

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    The Times have the story.

    Apparently it started when social services attended a Roma family over a serious child welfare issue. They got aggressive, then the social workers called for police help, and then word spread amongst from that Roma family amongst their community on social media. And they came out in force.

    They then attacked the police car that turned up to help protect the social workers, and take the child into care, and then the (unarmed) police were forced to withdraw.
    Has Farage apologised for blaming people from the subcontinent?

    A silly question, I know.

    And yet that utter piece of filth is in America, kowtowing to the madmen over there who might form the next administration, poisoning their minds with his false and crap views of what is going on over here.
    Has anyone explained the concept of a riot to you?

    Presumably you think all these people are from the Roma community:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DcP2x5VdaQQ
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,361
    Nigelb said:

    If Biden does not go in the next few days, then he's probably destroyed the Democrats' chances in November.

    And done severe damage to my Betfair book.

    Sunday or Monday seem to be the days being most talked about for his exit.
This discussion has been closed.