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Everybody loves the Lib Dems (after a fashion) – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited August 4 in General
Everybody loves the Lib Dems (after a fashion) – politicalbetting.com

Overall, fewer than one in five Britons are consistently right-wing in their party preferences, i.e. rank the Conservatives and Reform UK ahead of every other party, compared to 40% who rank all major progressive parties ahead of them.https://t.co/ZlB0dOtvPz pic.twitter.com/cQQfMP022k

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,910
    First, unlike the Lib dems
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,159
    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,091
    edited July 18
    Mmm, that "48% of the population ranked Reform fifth place or lower" stat should set alarm bells ringing for anybody suggesting the Tories ought to move that way. Not dissimilar to French reaction to Le Pen -- a sizeable chunk of people really like them but they are "vote anybody else to keep them out" electoral poison to even more.

    Also as a Lib Dem it's nice to see us get a lot of second preferences, but I do wonder how much of that is a kind of natural fallout of most people having a simple "Lab - LD - Tory" left-to-right model of the parties.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,687
    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,676
    To not know them is to love them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    He will be gone by the end of the month
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Or change the St Pancras name to St Crispin.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    boulay said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Or change the St Pancras name to St Crispin.
    Or Agincourt or Mers-el-Kébir.

    I love your thinking.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731
    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    Not only did the French lose, but also the Germans were fighting each other (Prussia/Bavaria).
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,866
    Not great but not unpleasant.

    The Lib Dems should change their branding from orange to vanilla.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    pm215 said:

    Mmm, that "48% of the population ranked Reform fifth place or lower" stat should set alarm bells ringing for anybody suggesting the Tories ought to move that way. Not dissimilar to French reaction to Le Pen -- a sizeable chunk of people really like them but they are "vote anybody else to keep them out" electoral poison to even more.

    Also as a Lib Dem it's nice to see us get a lot of second preferences, but I do wonder how much of that is a kind of natural fallout of most people having a simple "Lab - LD - Tory" left-to-right model of the parties.

    The 34% of Tory voters that prefer Labour to Reform should also give pause for thought.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,112
    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Or wheelchair users (see end of previous thread).
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    You are making the assumption that reform voters are not "None of the Above" protest voters...

    The problem is they are None of the Above voters so as Reform becomes mainstream they may well go elsewhere..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    It's an interesting counterfactual.
    But I'm not sure as you that she wouldn't have ended up the nominee anyway.

    It would have been a great betting market.
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    If you want me to I can bore for England on this one.

    For buses they are defined around a thing called the "Reference Wheelchair", which is based on mobility aids from the 1990s I think. Here is more recent Govt research with data tables about how many won't fit (a lot) from 2021/2, but meanwhile all the buses are being replaced and it has not been put in place.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reference-wheelchair-standard-and-transport-design

    The transit companies including rail usually like to work to the utter, utter legal minimum - just like LHAs building cycle facilities with no powerful local lobby groups, paint the lane, share the existing footpath and tick the box. The difference is between viewing something as a cost to be minimised or an investment to provide a full service. I'm watching on this one because fleet replacement time is the efficient time to do changes, but given the mentality requires some regulation - which they did not do under the last Govt.

    Even to gain a priority right to occupy a wheelchair space took a legal action at Supreme Court level. And companies have fought it off enough that drivers have to little more than ask nicely. Karen refuses to move her pushchair, the driver won't take action, and the wheelchair user is left at the bus stop - happens quite regularly. Then what happens is that the wheelchair user gives up on public transport and stays at home. The problem is that if a service cannot be relied upon, then a vulnerable person can be dumped - which is not an acceptable risk. Some things could help, such as better bus services - but they aren't a fix.

    Here's an account of the guy Doug Paulley who has been involved in some of these:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/doug-paulley-not-my-benefit-tackling-injustice
    What is the driver meant to do if Karen won't move?

    If he so much as raises his voice to her she will be shrieking harrasment and assault (and racism if she can pull that one) with the whole thing filmed by other passengers and reported to the authorities and youtube.

    The days when a bus driver could grab a passenger by the scruff of the neck and eject them are long over.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    FTP-ish. Major to the Oval; Theresa May to Lords; Rishi revealed in yesterday's speech he too is an Oval man.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    edited July 18

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Or wheelchair users (see end of previous thread).
    Or many elderly.

    PB often has a disturbing tendency to forget those folk (and PBers to forget their own likely future).

    As for buses, if Lothian Buses can have two wheelchair/buggy spaces and a quick-acting ramp ... But I forget. It interferes with the free market to have such socialist crap as municipal buses and disabled access. Apparently.
  • DavidL said:

    Very misleading headline on the BBC again:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw5ykyzdzezo

    Wage growth at the lowest for 2 years. Ignoring the fact that inflation is now 2% and that real wage growth is accordingly 3.7%, an unusually high increase.

    Mainly because of above inflation jacking up of minimum wage.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    edited July 18

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    If you want me to I can bore for England on this one.

    For buses they are defined around a thing called the "Reference Wheelchair", which is based on mobility aids from the 1990s I think. Here is more recent Govt research with data tables about how many won't fit (a lot) from 2021/2, but meanwhile all the buses are being replaced and it has not been put in place.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reference-wheelchair-standard-and-transport-design

    The transit companies including rail usually like to work to the utter, utter legal minimum - just like LHAs building cycle facilities with no powerful local lobby groups, paint the lane, share the existing footpath and tick the box. The difference is between viewing something as a cost to be minimised or an investment to provide a full service. I'm watching on this one because fleet replacement time is the efficient time to do changes, but given the mentality requires some regulation - which they did not do under the last Govt.

    Even to gain a priority right to occupy a wheelchair space took a legal action at Supreme Court level. And companies have fought it off enough that drivers have to little more than ask nicely. Karen refuses to move her pushchair, the driver won't take action, and the wheelchair user is left at the bus stop - happens quite regularly. Then what happens is that the wheelchair user gives up on public transport and stays at home. The problem is that if a service cannot be relied upon, then a vulnerable person can be dumped - which is not an acceptable risk. Some things could help, such as better bus services - but they aren't a fix.

    Here's an account of the guy Doug Paulley who has been involved in some of these:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/doug-paulley-not-my-benefit-tackling-injustice
    What is the driver meant to do if Karen won't move?

    If he so much as raises his voice to her she will be shrieking harrasment and assault (and racism if she can pull that one) with the whole thing filmed by other passengers and reported to the authorities and youtube.

    The days when a bus driver could grab a passenger by the scruff of the neck and eject them are long over.
    What is the driver to do if Karen has not a baby but her own wheelchair?

    ETA or if Karen is a whole crowd of standing passengers because this is the rush hour?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Or wheelchair users (see end of previous thread).
    Or many elderly.

    PB often has a disturbing tendency to forget those folk (and PBers to forget their own likely future).

    As for buses, if Lothian Buses can have two wheelchair/buggy spaces and a quick-acting ramp ... But I forget. It interferes with the free market to have such socialist crap as municipal buses and disabled access. Apparently.
    It's a very good point - there'd be no wheelchair access to buses/trains/tubes/taxis in a free market.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Would it do so ?
    That would depend on the terms of the merger, and Farage has a veto on whatever his company agrees to.

    Unless you're suggesting it might detoxify Farage ? Which seems unlikely.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,112
    edited July 18

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    edited July 18
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.

    Most of the Democratic Party, and all of their many friends in the media, preferred to spend the last year taking about how wonderfully the Emperor was dressesd, until he turned up to last month’s debate and the whole World saw him very much naked.

    For logistical reasons, they are doing the formal nomination via an online meeting in advance of their Convention, probably on August 1st, so those who want to see someone else nominated don’t have a lot of time on their hands.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,112
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    You are making the assumption that reform voters are not "None of the Above" protest voters...

    The problem is they are None of the Above voters so as Reform becomes mainstream they may well go elsewhere..
    One hopes so. But look across the Atlantic at the phenomenon that is Trump, sucking in extremists from the right and floating voters from the centre like a powerful fascist tornado tearing across the plains.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    Some dodgy grade C O level maths for you ...

    So, 34% of 2024 Tory voters prefer Labour to Reform; and 25% of Reform voters prefer Labour to the Tories.

    The Tories got 6,827,112 votes on 4th July; Reform got 4,117,221

    34% of 6,827,112 = 2,321,218

    25% of 4,117,221 = 1,029,305

    2,321,218 + 1,029,305 = 3,350,523

    6,827,112 + 4,117,221 - 3,350,523 = 7,593,810

    Meanwhile, Labour got 9,704,655 votes on 4th July 2024.

    9,704,655 + 3,350,523 = 13,055,178

    On 4th July, the Tories got around 70% of the Labour vote. On the numbers above a single Tory/Reform ticket gets 58%.

    Put another way, be careful what you wish for!!





  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,112
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Would it do so ?
    That would depend on the terms of the merger, and Farage has a veto on whatever his company agrees to.

    Unless you're suggesting it might detoxify Farage ? Which seems unlikely.
    Yes I think it could detoxify Farage. American politics has managed to detoxify a narcissistic criminal, Le Pen has managed to detoxify the Le Pen name. And Farage has already done I’m a celebrity.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    edited July 18
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Very misleading headline on the BBC again:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw5ykyzdzezo

    Wage growth at the lowest for 2 years. Ignoring the fact that inflation is now 2% and that real wage growth is accordingly 3.7%, an unusually high increase.

    Most of the Democratic Party, and all of their many friends in the media, preferred to spend the last year taking about how wonderfully the Emperor was dressesd, until he turned up to last month’s debate and the whole World saw him very much naked.

    For logistical reasons, they are doing the formal nomination via an online meeting in advance of their Convention, probably on August 1st, so those who want to see someone else nominated don’t have a lot of time on their hands.
    You've replied to the wrong post [eta now fixed] and your characterisation of pre-debate discussion is tendentious. There were lots of calls for Biden to retire for months before that debate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    On topic, we've seen this sort of polling before.

    I remember the maps that Charles Kennedy used to put out showing the Liberal Democrats would win a national landslide if everyone thought they could win locally.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,503
    edited July 18

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber and trains in a sealed palanquin?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    edited July 18

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Still more to the point, does he have a sealed train? Sanitised immediately before use?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    If you want me to I can bore for England on this one.

    For buses they are defined around a thing called the "Reference Wheelchair", which is based on mobility aids from the 1990s I think. Here is more recent Govt research with data tables about how many won't fit (a lot) from 2021/2, but meanwhile all the buses are being replaced and it has not been put in place.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reference-wheelchair-standard-and-transport-design

    The transit companies including rail usually like to work to the utter, utter legal minimum - just like LHAs building cycle facilities with no powerful local lobby groups, paint the lane, share the existing footpath and tick the box. The difference is between viewing something as a cost to be minimised or an investment to provide a full service. I'm watching on this one because fleet replacement time is the efficient time to do changes, but given the mentality requires some regulation - which they did not do under the last Govt.

    Even to gain a priority right to occupy a wheelchair space took a legal action at Supreme Court level. And companies have fought it off enough that drivers have to little more than ask nicely. Karen refuses to move her pushchair, the driver won't take action, and the wheelchair user is left at the bus stop - happens quite regularly. Then what happens is that the wheelchair user gives up on public transport and stays at home. The problem is that if a service cannot be relied upon, then a vulnerable person can be dumped - which is not an acceptable risk. Some things could help, such as better bus services - but they aren't a fix.

    Here's an account of the guy Doug Paulley who has been involved in some of these:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/doug-paulley-not-my-benefit-tackling-injustice
    What is the driver meant to do if Karen won't move?

    If he so much as raises his voice to her she will be shrieking harrasment and assault (and racism if she can pull that one) with the whole thing filmed by other passengers and reported to the authorities and youtube.

    The days when a bus driver could grab a passenger by the scruff of the neck and eject them are long over.
    What is the driver to do if Karen has not a baby but her own wheelchair?

    ETA or if Karen is a whole crowd of standing passengers because this is the rush hour?
    Limits to numbers standing, anyway. And some of them get out of the way temporarily if need be.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731
    edited July 18
    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
    Oi! Leicestershire Station is a lovely piece of Victoriana. Not on the same scale as St Pancras, but in good condition, and well laid out.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,112
    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
    The long journey also gave me the opportunity to read the Economist for the first time in ages. I’d forgotten what a weirdly patronising and self-conscious title it is. It’s like what EdExcel would publish if they did a “magazine” to help A Level students with their Politics and Economics. The tone throughout is “educational”.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Thatcher managed to kill off the National Front and absorb their voters in 1979 simply by making an immigration pledge, and passing the 1981 British Nationality Act.

    Practical politics. Today, they'd be told "we don't want any of your votes", and so they wouldn't get any of their votes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,258
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Yep. And although it's not the main thing - it's not honestly! - it would transform my book somewhat. I'd still have the Big Short on Trump but I've got a big green on Harris in there (much bigger than my Biden) - so my MTM if she's the Candidate would look a whole lot better.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    I got a couple of things dethreaded. Reposting as it's a good debate.
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    No they are ticking boxes to get a compliant solution at the lowest possible price, so their rivals don't win the bid.

    The sheer amount of regulation and proportion of overall design and build costs it bakes in mean that is the focus of everyone.

    Operators don't much care because said people cost far more than they bring in in revenue.
    If it takes 10 minutes to get the disabled person off the bus that impacts the route for a long period of time.

    But equally the problem would only be discovered when reality hit..
    Of course with a suitable bus that can be used by all bus passengers it takes seconds.

    But that is one that has to be driven from standards and regulations, to take the drive for "lowest possible price" out of the equation where it undermines quality of life.

    There's a philosophical problem there as well - in the UK disabled people are not "them who we do things to" (such as "getting them off the bus"); our values are that disabled people are a part of "us" and we design our society for everyone. That has been the perspective in law since approximately the 1980s. Technically it's an aspect of what is called the "medical model" or "social model" of disability.

    See my other comment for more detail.

  • eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    In Uber?

    Tbats nothing. I have travelled in First Class Luxury on an Underground train from Moorgate to Earls Court (Fare £80 single)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    edited July 18
    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    If you want me to I can bore for England on this one.

    For buses they are defined around a thing called the "Reference Wheelchair", which is based on mobility aids from the 1990s I think. Here is more recent Govt research with data tables about how many won't fit (a lot - mobility aids are far more capable and we are all larger) from 2021/2, but meanwhile all the buses are being replaced and 2023/4 appropriate guidance has not been put in place.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reference-wheelchair-standard-and-transport-design

    The transit companies including rail usually like to work to the utter, utter legal minimum - just like LHAs building cycle facilities with no powerful local lobby groups, paint the lane, share the existing footpath and tick the box. The difference is between viewing something as a cost to be minimised or an investment to provide a full service. I'm watching on this one because fleet replacement time is the efficient time to do changes, but given the mentality requires some regulation - which they did not do under the last Govt.

    Even to gain a priority right to occupy a wheelchair space took a legal action at Supreme Court level. And companies have fought it off enough that drivers have to little more than ask nicely. Karen refuses to move her pushchair, the driver won't take action, and the wheelchair user is left at the bus stop - happens quite regularly. Then what happens is that the wheelchair user gives up on public transport and stays at home. The problem is that if a service cannot be relied upon, then a vulnerable person can be dumped - which is not an acceptable risk. Some things could help, such as better bus services - but they aren't a fix.

    Here's an account of the guy Doug Paulley who has been involved in some of these:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/doug-paulley-not-my-benefit-tackling-injustice


  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    edited July 18

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Very misleading headline on the BBC again:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw5ykyzdzezo

    Wage growth at the lowest for 2 years. Ignoring the fact that inflation is now 2% and that real wage growth is accordingly 3.7%, an unusually high increase.

    Most of the Democratic Party, and all of their many friends in the media, preferred to spend the last year taking about how wonderfully the Emperor was dressesd, until he turned up to last month’s debate and the whole World saw him very much naked.

    For logistical reasons, they are doing the formal nomination via an online meeting in advance of their Convention, probably on August 1st, so those who want to see someone else nominated don’t have a lot of time on their hands.
    You've replied to the wrong post [eta now fixed] and your characterisation of pre-debate discussion is tendentious. There were lots of calls for Biden to retire for months before that debate.
    Equally the reason why the formal nomination is before the Convention is because a couple of states have fixed dates for election ballots and for reasons unknown the Democrat party decided a convention after those deadlines was a good idea..

    It's one of those reasons why replacing Biden with anyone but Harris is going to be utterly impossible...
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    Sandpit said:

    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?

    A decade ago, there was a Tory councillor here (in Oxfordshire) who used to churn out that kind of crap. Mostly based on her bizarre antipathy to vegetarianism.

    She lost her seat the following year (to a LibDem, natch) - and her neanderthal attitude to veggies now looks to most people in affluent gastropubs as incomprehensible as smoking.

    As far as we're concerned her party's now history. From holding ALL the county's parliamentary seats, the Tories have now lost any Oxfordshire representation in parliament, practically all her neighbours routinely now vote LibDem, while the County, and its rural Districts ( just a decade ago regarded by the media as so safe for the Tories elections were perpetually predictable) are run by the LibDems - and there's next to no Tory council seats in the county's one urban District.

    All ultimately the result of the death, or age-related ineffectiveness, of the archetype Tory gibberish-churner. Now politically impotent and socially beyond the pale - because they're just out of touch with voters (and especially the business community) in modern rural Britain.

    Argue about Reform if you like. But dragging the ""sandals" myth into the debate just exposes that you're as out of touch with the world of 2024 as that stupid Tory woman. And as doomed to political irrelevance
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
    The long journey also gave me the opportunity to read the Economist for the first time in ages. I’d forgotten what a weirdly patronising and self-conscious title it is. It’s like what EdExcel would publish if they did a “magazine” to help A Level students with their Politics and Economics. The tone throughout is “educational”.
    Once you realise that it’s written mostly by a bunch of twentysomething arts graduates with a very tight style guide, it all starts to make sense.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
  • Sandpit said:

    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?

    No please, not socks again.

    I know Leon probably hasn't surfaced yet but...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    Flanner said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?

    A decade ago, there was a Tory councillor here (in Oxfordshire) who used to churn out that kind of crap. Mostly based on her bizarre antipathy to vegetarianism.

    She lost her seat the following year (to a LibDem, natch) - and her neanderthal attitude to veggies now looks to most people in affluent gastropubs as incomprehensible as smoking.

    As far as we're concerned her party's now history. From holding ALL the county's parliamentary seats, the Tories have now lost any Oxfordshire representation in parliament, practically all her neighbours routinely now vote LibDem, while the County, and its rural Districts ( just a decade ago regarded by the media as so safe for the Tories elections were perpetually predictable) are run by the LibDems - and there's next to no Tory council seats in the county's one urban District.

    For the first time in their entire existence as a party, I think ?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
    The long journey also gave me the opportunity to read the Economist for the first time in ages. I’d forgotten what a weirdly patronising and self-conscious title it is. It’s like what EdExcel would publish if they did a “magazine” to help A Level students with their Politics and Economics. The tone throughout is “educational”.
    Once you realise that it’s written mostly by a bunch of twentysomething arts graduates with a very tight style guide, it all starts to make sense.
    It's also rather good; better than any other British newspaper. Yes, it's not perfect, but that still leaves plenty of room to be better than the others.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
  • Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    Cough. See my post above.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907
    Two thirds of Dem voters think Biden should stand down but many are still voting for him given the current polling . So this is part of the problem . The polls nationally aren’t catastrophic for Biden so he sees this and thinks I can make that up.

    Ignoring of course that the election will be decided in the swing states .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Very misleading headline on the BBC again:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw5ykyzdzezo

    Wage growth at the lowest for 2 years. Ignoring the fact that inflation is now 2% and that real wage growth is accordingly 3.7%, an unusually high increase.

    Most of the Democratic Party, and all of their many friends in the media, preferred to spend the last year taking about how wonderfully the Emperor was dressesd, until he turned up to last month’s debate and the whole World saw him very much naked.

    For logistical reasons, they are doing the formal nomination via an online meeting in advance of their Convention, probably on August 1st, so those who want to see someone else nominated don’t have a lot of time on their hands.
    You've replied to the wrong post [eta now fixed] and your characterisation of pre-debate discussion is tendentious. There were lots of calls for Biden to retire for months before that debate.
    I recall seeing many Conservative commentators suggesting he was somewhat frail and senile, but don’t recall many from his own side saying the same out loud before the debate.

    Bonus point for ‘tendentious’ by the way, not seen that word for years.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,687
    edited July 18
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Given Vance's incredibly hard line on abortion, I can't help wondering whether recent events have deluded Trump into thinking the election is already in the bag and he doesn't even have to try to appeal to moderate voters. A new candidate could change the narrative quite a lot.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Thatcher managed to kill off the National Front and absorb their voters in 1979 simply by making an immigration pledge, and passing the 1981 British Nationality Act.

    Practical politics. Today, they'd be told "we don't want any of your votes", and so they wouldn't get any of their votes.
    Which is what Dave did in 2007 to 2010. Possibly with the Thatcher approach in mind.

    Trouble is that something that worked for Thatcher became a millstone for the governments of Cameron and all his successors. Not sure why, but I suspect it's important.

    Initial suspicions are either that immigration fears are dampened down massively when people feel better off or that squeezing immigration was just easier in the 1980s than the 2020s because of the shape of British demographics.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    Cough. See my post above.
    What was that, some sort of special party train?

    Out in the sandpit where I live, we are civilised enough to have first class on every train.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
    The long journey also gave me the opportunity to read the Economist for the first time in ages. I’d forgotten what a weirdly patronising and self-conscious title it is. It’s like what EdExcel would publish if they did a “magazine” to help A Level students with their Politics and Economics. The tone throughout is “educational”.
    Once you realise that it’s written mostly by a bunch of twentysomething arts graduates with a very tight style guide, it all starts to make sense.
    It has huge merits though. It has an explicit (liberal, free trade etc) ideology rather than simply veering around like a weather vane. No daily newspaper does that. It covers bits of the world largely ignored. It doesn't overlook the fact that the world makes progress as well as having problems. It is more solution than grievance based. It has a concern for facts.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.

    She is very unlikely to beat Trump but she'd almost certainly do better than Biden and that would help get out the vote in Senate and House races. After all, it will be bad enough having MAGA in the White House, it would be a whole lot worse if MAGA runs the the executive and the legislature. There would be the ability to do stuff that would keep Democrats away from power for decades.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,523
    Good morning, everyone.

    Roman legions stationed in Britannia wore socks with their sandals.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    They did exist but were suspended in 1940 and never reimplemented..
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    edited July 18

    Sandpit said:

    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?

    No please, not socks again.

    I know Leon probably hasn't surfaced yet but...
    One does wonder whether @Leon selects his single socks by colour? Do stripes help - round stripes or up and down stripes, and is fatter looking or longer looking the priority?

    (At this point I stop for taste reasons).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    edited July 18

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,384

    On topic, we've seen this sort of polling before.

    I remember the maps that Charles Kennedy used to put out showing the Liberal Democrats would win a national landslide if everyone thought they could win locally.

    And then when PR elections came in for Scotland, Wales, London and the Euro elections they didn't.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,448
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    Getting a new set of problems is a good idea if you have no good solution for the original set of problems.

    There is no good solution to Biden's deteriorating faculties.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    Nigelb said:

    Flanner said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?

    A decade ago, there was a Tory councillor here (in Oxfordshire) who used to churn out that kind of crap. Mostly based on her bizarre antipathy to vegetarianism.

    She lost her seat the following year (to a LibDem, natch) - and her neanderthal attitude to veggies now looks to most people in affluent gastropubs as incomprehensible as smoking.

    As far as we're concerned her party's now history. From holding ALL the county's parliamentary seats, the Tories have now lost any Oxfordshire representation in parliament, practically all her neighbours routinely now vote LibDem, while the County, and its rural Districts ( just a decade ago regarded by the media as so safe for the Tories elections were perpetually predictable) are run by the LibDems - and there's next to no Tory council seats in the county's one urban District.

    For the first time in their entire existence as a party, I think ?

    One thing that interests me is whether Lib Dem Local Populism means that they will run former Tory places by internally transforming into Mini-Me-Tories.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 53,314
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    It sounds like a full-on civil war, masked only by the tragic event of the weekend and now the GOP Convention.

    https://x.com/natesilver538/status/1813778269977583930

    “So they basically held an intervention with Biden, and it didn't work, so now they're leaking the details publicly.”
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    Getting a new set of problems is a good idea if you have no good solution for the original set of problems.

    There is no good solution to Biden's deteriorating faculties.
    And Kamala has got 1 advantage with a female president they can go all in on abortion and similar issues - I suspect that is a weak spot for Trump..
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    The LibDems are the least scrupulous party of the mainstream in GB, perhaps because they feel so sure they're right and the system is unfair that they have to manipulate it in any way they can? The level of misleading leaflets (espcially in quoting polls. sometimes omitting the Y-axis or relating to a different area) completely dwarfs what the other main parties offer, though none of the parties are squeaky clean. It's quite successful at a local level and they're hard to dislike in any other way so they get away with it. But arguably there are invisible drawbacks in reluctance to give way even when they are clearly the main local alternative to the Tories,
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327

    DavidL said:

    Very misleading headline on the BBC again:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw5ykyzdzezo

    Wage growth at the lowest for 2 years. Ignoring the fact that inflation is now 2% and that real wage growth is accordingly 3.7%, an unusually high increase.

    Mainly because of above inflation jacking up of minimum wage.
    Yes, which is a very good thing as long as not too many people are priced out of jobs. It reduces inequality and also puts more of the cost of labour on those employing it than the top up payments from the State. If we can't increase the minimum wage by more than inflation when unemployment is 4% when can we?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,571
    Sandpit said:

    Lib Dem and fashion in the same sentence - are socks and sandals the ‘in’ thing for summer ‘24?

    Not to be confused with the Film Summer of 42......
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Thatcher managed to kill off the National Front and absorb their voters in 1979 simply by making an immigration pledge, and passing the 1981 British Nationality Act.

    Practical politics. Today, they'd be told "we don't want any of your votes", and so they wouldn't get any of their votes.
    Which is what Dave did in 2007 to 2010. Possibly with the Thatcher approach in mind.

    Trouble is that something that worked for Thatcher became a millstone for the governments of Cameron and all his successors. Not sure why, but I suspect it's important.

    Initial suspicions are either that immigration fears are dampened down massively when people feel better off or that squeezing immigration was just easier in the 1980s than the 2020s because of the shape of British demographics.

    I think it's the latter.

    It's very hard to make a highly globalised economy like ours, based on services, work without high levels of immigration, particularly since for low end services there are millions of jobs we all depend upon yet are low pay for long hours. People don't want to pay much more money for all those and, even if they did, it's not clear if many Brits would do the work anyway.

    If we stopped it all immigration would certainly go "down" but social care, health, some universities, and many food supply chains would also go down.

    What is the solution?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    You think, but if he doesn't think he stays nominee.

    He's very very stubborn, and there's no mechanism to eject him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327

    The LibDems are the least scrupulous party of the mainstream in GB, perhaps because they feel so sure they're right and the system is unfair that they have to manipulate it in any way they can? The level of misleading leaflets (espcially in quoting polls. sometimes omitting the Y-axis or relating to a different area) completely dwarfs what the other main parties offer, though none of the parties are squeaky clean. It's quite successful at a local level and they're hard to dislike in any other way so they get away with it. But arguably there are invisible drawbacks in reluctance to give way even when they are clearly the main local alternative to the Tories,

    You're suggesting that their winning here graphs are somewhat misleading? For shame.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    I went from St Pancras to Nottingham yesterday. It’s a strange experience, travelling via our most glamorous railway terminal to some of the least glamorous destinations in the country.

    The mobile reception on the East Midlands mainline is shit too.
    The long journey also gave me the opportunity to read the Economist for the first time in ages. I’d forgotten what a weirdly patronising and self-conscious title it is. It’s like what EdExcel would publish if they did a “magazine” to help A Level students with their Politics and Economics. The tone throughout is “educational”.
    Once you realise that it’s written mostly by a bunch of twentysomething arts graduates with a very tight style guide, it all starts to make sense.
    It's also rather good; better than any other British newspaper. Yes, it's not perfect, but that still leaves plenty of room to be better than the others.
    And it's coverage of science (a couple of key stories each week, snappily told) is about the best in the mainstream media. Way better than New Scientist, which has fallen a long way in its desire to be popular and relevant.

    Sometimes, the non-specialist writer with the discipline of a tight style guide is what you need.

    (Having just realised that I haven't seen Horizon for a while, the BBC don't seem to have made new episodes for a couple of years now. What the heck is that about?)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    Chris said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Given Vance's incredibly hard line on abortion, I can't help wondering whether recent events have deluded Trump into thinking the election is already in the bag and he doesn't even have to try to appeal to moderate voters. A new candidate could change the narrative quite a lot.
    Yes, that's the imponderable. Would a new candidate get a bounce?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379

    The LibDems are the least scrupulous party of the mainstream in GB, perhaps because they feel so sure they're right and the system is unfair that they have to manipulate it in any way they can? The level of misleading leaflets (espcially in quoting polls. sometimes omitting the Y-axis or relating to a different area) completely dwarfs what the other main parties offer, though none of the parties are squeaky clean. It's quite successful at a local level and they're hard to dislike in any other way so they get away with it. But arguably there are invisible drawbacks in reluctance to give way even when they are clearly the main local alternative to the Tories,

    Not carrying any bitterness that the LDs chose the Tories in 2010. Oh no, not at all. ;-)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    Getting a new set of problems is a good idea if you have no good solution for the original set of problems.

    There is no good solution to Biden's deteriorating faculties.
    A President can operate without his marbles for an extended period, provided he has good people around him. See Reagan's second term as an example. It is, however, ideal to get elected before the problem manifests itself.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    edited July 18

    On topic, we've seen this sort of polling before.

    I remember the maps that Charles Kennedy used to put out showing the Liberal Democrats would win a national landslide if everyone thought they could win locally.

    And then when PR elections came in for Scotland, Wales, London and the Euro elections they didn't.
    PB pedantry: they did win in Scotland, but only as part of a coalition (admittedly, again, after fiddling the system to make sure).
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    It will be messy, so the next question is when is the least messy time for Biden to go? When would the Trump campaign lest like him to go- presumably with a "fellow Americans, I would love to serve you longer, but I must follow the advice of my doctors" speech? When would Michael Dobbs or Jeffrey Archer or someone like that write him as going?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    Getting a new set of problems is a good idea if you have no good solution for the original set of problems.

    There is no good solution to Biden's deteriorating faculties.
    And Kamala has got 1 advantage with a female president they can go all in on abortion and similar issues - I suspect that is a weak spot for Trump..
    Plus replacing Biden with Kamala makes Trump the doddery old fool of the race.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Thatcher managed to kill off the National Front and absorb their voters in 1979 simply by making an immigration pledge, and passing the 1981 British Nationality Act.

    Practical politics. Today, they'd be told "we don't want any of your votes", and so they wouldn't get any of their votes.
    Which is what Dave did in 2007 to 2010. Possibly with the Thatcher approach in mind.

    Trouble is that something that worked for Thatcher became a millstone for the governments of Cameron and all his successors. Not sure why, but I suspect it's important.

    Initial suspicions are either that immigration fears are dampened down massively when people feel better off or that squeezing immigration was just easier in the 1980s than the 2020s because of the shape of British demographics.

    I think it's the latter.

    It's very hard to make a highly globalised economy like ours, based on services, work without high levels of immigration, particularly since for low end services there are millions of jobs we all depend upon yet are low pay for long hours. People don't want to pay much more money for all those and, even if they did, it's not clear if many Brits would do the work anyway.

    If we stopped it all immigration would certainly go "down" but social care, health, some universities, and many food supply chains would also go down.

    What is the solution?
    You can split those industries into 2 though. For universities most students return after 3 to 5 years so you have an initial massive increase but in the near future it will plateau out.

    Likewise food supply is come here for 6-9 months then return home before the cycle repeats.

    Social care and health are therefore the real issues and we don't have people who want to do the work and we don't have people willing to work for the wages offered so that is just going to be a problem fixed by imported people. And given we don't like Europeans it's going to be people from further afield..
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,516
    edited July 18

    The LibDems are the least scrupulous party of the mainstream in GB, perhaps because they feel so sure they're right and the system is unfair that they have to manipulate it in any way they can? The level of misleading leaflets (espcially in quoting polls. sometimes omitting the Y-axis or relating to a different area) completely dwarfs what the other main parties offer, though none of the parties are squeaky clean. It's quite successful at a local level and they're hard to dislike in any other way so they get away with it. But arguably there are invisible drawbacks in reluctance to give way even when they are clearly the main local alternative to the Tories,

    Oh come off it Nick. You should have seen some of the bar charts Lab and the Tories put out in Guildford at this election. Lab trying to claim it was neck and neck between them and the Tories. Tories did similarly. On polling day there was a good morning leaflet with two bars of equal length for the Tories and Labour with the LDs hardly registering and no reference as to where that came from at all and we can't think of anything it can possibly represent.

    And the result was?

    Oh and I remember Lab doing a bar chart and only Lab can win here and a vote for the LDs is a wasted vote in a Euro election with PR!!! Unscrupulous?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    If you want me to I can bore for England on this one.

    For buses they are defined around a thing called the "Reference Wheelchair", which is based on mobility aids from the 1990s I think. Here is more recent Govt research with data tables about how many won't fit (a lot) from 2021/2, but meanwhile all the buses are being replaced and it has not been put in place.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reference-wheelchair-standard-and-transport-design

    The transit companies including rail usually like to work to the utter, utter legal minimum - just like LHAs building cycle facilities with no powerful local lobby groups, paint the lane, share the existing footpath and tick the box. The difference is between viewing something as a cost to be minimised or an investment to provide a full service. I'm watching on this one because fleet replacement time is the efficient time to do changes, but given the mentality requires some regulation - which they did not do under the last Govt.

    Even to gain a priority right to occupy a wheelchair space took a legal action at Supreme Court level. And companies have fought it off enough that drivers have to little more than ask nicely. Karen refuses to move her pushchair, the driver won't take action, and the wheelchair user is left at the bus stop - happens quite regularly. Then what happens is that the wheelchair user gives up on public transport and stays at home. The problem is that if a service cannot be relied upon, then a vulnerable person can be dumped - which is not an acceptable risk. Some things could help, such as better bus services - but they aren't a fix.

    Here's an account of the guy Doug Paulley who has been involved in some of these:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/doug-paulley-not-my-benefit-tackling-injustice
    What is the driver meant to do if Karen won't move?

    If he so much as raises his voice to her she will be shrieking harrasment and assault (and racism if she can pull that one) with the whole thing filmed by other passengers and reported to the authorities and youtube.

    The days when a bus driver could grab a passenger by the scruff of the neck and eject them are long over.
    What is the driver to do if Karen has not a baby but her own wheelchair?

    ETA or if Karen is a whole crowd of standing passengers because this is the rush hour?
    Limits to numbers standing, anyway. And some of them get out of the way temporarily if need be.
    Get out the way by getting off the bus, you mean? Make half a dozen people get off and wait for the next bus, where they can pay a second fare?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,962
    The Conservatives are really in a dire place per this survey. Reform supporters have limited interest in switching; Labour and Lib Dem voters have zero interest whatsoever. Labour consequently in a strong position. The mile wide and an inch deep remarks don't seem on the mark.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    Biden's COVID seems to have given the betting markets quite a jolt. Harris is back to favourite as the Democratic nominee now.

    It sounds as if he is asymptomatic, just tested because Jill was symptomatic.

    I would like to see him handover though. He's had a long run and needs to retire.

    In Kamala we trust.
    Still not sure about that. Biden really screwed things up by running through the primaries. I very much doubt that Kamala would have come out of competitive primaries on top.

    The whole mess has significantly increased the probability of Trump 2: the revenge.
    Sure, if Biden had not run and allowed an open field in the Dem primaries then he would really have been a bridge to a new generation, and a useful discussion of direction. That ship has sailed though.

    Failing that, then stepping down now in favour of Kamala is the best option now.
    Oh I agree, there really is no alternative now. But will Kamala beat Trump? I am really not sure. She is very California liberal type from what I can see and won't have anything like the blue collar reach that Biden had.
    Which is why Biden will stay nominee.
    I thought that until a couple of weeks ago but the pressure from his own side is building and, of course, undermining. If a number of senior Democrats go on record saying he is not up to it Tump will have a field day. I think he really has to stand down now but it is silly to think that this solves the Democrat's problems. It just gives them a new set.
    Getting a new set of problems is a good idea if you have no good solution for the original set of problems.

    There is no good solution to Biden's deteriorating faculties.
    Who would want to stand instead? The chances of winning are small, and the price of losing immense - including everyone saying that if Biden had not been driven out he would have won. A Democratic hopeful would await 2028 or at least await Biden's invitation to stand.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    I say that as somebody who is from Sheffield and uses St Pancras a lot.

    Plus, hang on, you use the Tube? You utter peasant, use Uber Luxury, that's the way to travel in London.
    If you want to take 3/5 times longer than the Tube would take...
    But I don't have to deal with the germ ridden great unwashed.
    Are you carried to and from your Uber to trains in a sealed palanquin?
    Even better, I travel first class.
    What sort of idiots in London would build a metro system and not include first class carriages?
    Cough. See my post above.
    What was that, some sort of special party train?

    Out in the sandpit where I live, we are civilised enough to have first class on every train.
    Geniune Metropolitan Railway First Class Carriage haulef by Metropolitan Railway and LT locos. Open to anyone who buys a ticket.

    https://pocketmags.com/magazine-articles/steam-on-the-circle-line-is-a-triumph
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Thatcher managed to kill off the National Front and absorb their voters in 1979 simply by making an immigration pledge, and passing the 1981 British Nationality Act.

    Practical politics. Today, they'd be told "we don't want any of your votes", and so they wouldn't get any of their votes.
    Which is what Dave did in 2007 to 2010. Possibly with the Thatcher approach in mind.

    Trouble is that something that worked for Thatcher became a millstone for the governments of Cameron and all his successors. Not sure why, but I suspect it's important.

    Initial suspicions are either that immigration fears are dampened down massively when people feel better off or that squeezing immigration was just easier in the 1980s than the 2020s because of the shape of British demographics.

    I think it's the latter.

    It's very hard to make a highly globalised economy like ours, based on services, work without high levels of immigration, particularly since for low end services there are millions of jobs we all depend upon yet are low pay for long hours. People don't want to pay much more money for all those and, even if they did, it's not clear if many Brits would do the work anyway.

    If we stopped it all immigration would certainly go "down" but social care, health, some universities, and many food supply chains would also go down.

    What is the solution?
    You can split those industries into 2 though. For universities most students return after 3 to 5 years so you have an initial massive increase but in the near future it will plateau out.

    Likewise food supply is come here for 6-9 months then return home before the cycle repeats.

    Social care and health are therefore the real issues and we don't have people who want to do the work and we don't have people willing to work for the wages offered so that is just going to be a problem fixed by imported people. And given we don't like Europeans it's going to be people from further afield..
    Trouble is the net figures show that many don't return home, and that's corroborated by the census every 10 years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    Carnyx said:

    Amused to see Starmer is meeting European leaders at Blenheim Palace. The War of the Spanish Succession was of course a great example of European cooperation... but I am not sure what Macron will make of it

    One of Dave's best acts as Foreign Secretary was to choose Blenheim Palace as the location.

    Any party that decides to change the Eurostar terminus from St. Pancras back to Waterloo station will win my vote for life.
    Bugger that last for a game of commuters on the Tube. It's bad enough not having direct connections with Eurostar from the north *in the same station* without having that added as well.
    It's a stupid idea. Just rename St Pancreas to a proper name. Agincourt. Crécy, Aboukir (be nice to the locals)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    edited July 18

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Apparently, according to the BBC, there's a thing called the "Better Buses Bill" in the King's Speech.

    Boris would be proud.

    That one interests me.

    Currently there's a Gadarene Rush to get electric buses in, but wheelchair space requirements are still stuck in the 1990s, and they are *always* - like everything else - done to the absolute minimum.

    So a lot won't fit, and some only have one space (so send your partner on the next bus an hour later), and we just wired a lot of this in for another 25 years.

    Compare York and Manchester:
    https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23751337.flick-williams-says-first-york-buses-disappointment/

    First Bus:
    A spokesperson for First York said: “The bus design we selected from the manufacturer meets all disability access requirements. The position of the poles has also been modified after consultation with disability groups.
    A few months back I helped a man in a wheelchair off a bus on the way back from Cambridge. He was in the wheelchair space, but the driver and I had to manhandle the man and chair around a pole in order to get him out. It was inconvenient, wasted time and perhaps most importantly, not very dignified for the man.

    It made me wonder whether the bus designers had actually tried their disabled provision space with a wide range of disabled people. (On the other hand, ISTR the bus had lowering suspension that enabled level entry. Might have that mixed up with another bus though.)
    If you want me to I can bore for England on this one.

    For buses they are defined around a thing called the "Reference Wheelchair", which is based on mobility aids from the 1990s I think. Here is more recent Govt research with data tables about how many won't fit (a lot) from 2021/2, but meanwhile all the buses are being replaced and it has not been put in place.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reference-wheelchair-standard-and-transport-design

    The transit companies including rail usually like to work to the utter, utter legal minimum - just like LHAs building cycle facilities with no powerful local lobby groups, paint the lane, share the existing footpath and tick the box. The difference is between viewing something as a cost to be minimised or an investment to provide a full service. I'm watching on this one because fleet replacement time is the efficient time to do changes, but given the mentality requires some regulation - which they did not do under the last Govt.

    Even to gain a priority right to occupy a wheelchair space took a legal action at Supreme Court level. And companies have fought it off enough that drivers have to little more than ask nicely. Karen refuses to move her pushchair, the driver won't take action, and the wheelchair user is left at the bus stop - happens quite regularly. Then what happens is that the wheelchair user gives up on public transport and stays at home. The problem is that if a service cannot be relied upon, then a vulnerable person can be dumped - which is not an acceptable risk. Some things could help, such as better bus services - but they aren't a fix.

    Here's an account of the guy Doug Paulley who has been involved in some of these:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/30/doug-paulley-not-my-benefit-tackling-injustice
    What is the driver meant to do if Karen won't move?

    If he so much as raises his voice to her she will be shrieking harrasment and assault (and racism if she can pull that one) with the whole thing filmed by other passengers and reported to the authorities and youtube.

    The days when a bus driver could grab a passenger by the scruff of the neck and eject them are long over.
    It's about management willingness to support and implement a suitable policy, reflecting a suitable set of vlaues.

    In principle it's no different to some selfish (*&^% blocking a Blue Badge parking space.

    A bus driver can ask a disruptive passenger, such as "Karen" in this example, to leave the bus. Bus companies I am aware of already have this in their Conditions of Carriage. By getting on the bus passengers have agreed to be bound by them.

    I have known cases where the driver said "this bus is not going anywhere until you clear the wheelchair space".

    eg National Express:

    "12. Passenger behaviour
    12.1 Required behaviour and prohibited behaviour
    (b) Prohibited behaviour: You must ensure that you do not:
    (iv) Behave in a manner which causes discomfort, inconvenience, danger, damage or injury to any other person or to property on board any Coach or at any Station or to any Coach or Station;
    2.3 Consequences of bad behaviour
    If you fail to comply with this Condition 12, we shall be entitled to restrain you, remove you from any Coach or Station owned or managed by us, refuse you further carriage, cancel your Ticket without refund and take any other measures as we consider necessary, including to involve law enforcement authorities if we consider that there are any security or safety issues.
    Furthermore, we reserve the right to refuse travel, either on a one-off or permanent basis, to anyone who has failed to comply with this Condition 12 or who we consider to be a nuisance or danger to our passengers, customers, drivers or National Express Representatives.
    12.4 No liability to you for your bad behaviour
    If we take any of the actions in consequence of your bad behaviour specified in this Condition 12 or you are refused travel in the circumstances specified in this Condition 12, we will not be liable to you for any loss, damage, injury, inconvenience or cost that you suffer or incur as a result."


    https://www.nationalexpress.com/en/help/conditions-of-carriage
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,327

    TimS said:

    My theory is that Reform are still taboo for many right wingers, but a merger with the Tories would detoxify them. It’s a tale as old as time.

    So pronouncing that current toxicity means you can’t simply add up the bloc numbers is perhaps premature.

    Thatcher managed to kill off the National Front and absorb their voters in 1979 simply by making an immigration pledge, and passing the 1981 British Nationality Act.

    Practical politics. Today, they'd be told "we don't want any of your votes", and so they wouldn't get any of their votes.
    Which is what Dave did in 2007 to 2010. Possibly with the Thatcher approach in mind.

    Trouble is that something that worked for Thatcher became a millstone for the governments of Cameron and all his successors. Not sure why, but I suspect it's important.

    Initial suspicions are either that immigration fears are dampened down massively when people feel better off or that squeezing immigration was just easier in the 1980s than the 2020s because of the shape of British demographics.

    I think it's the latter.

    It's very hard to make a highly globalised economy like ours, based on services, work without high levels of immigration, particularly since for low end services there are millions of jobs we all depend upon yet are low pay for long hours. People don't want to pay much more money for all those and, even if they did, it's not clear if many Brits would do the work anyway.

    If we stopped it all immigration would certainly go "down" but social care, health, some universities, and many food supply chains would also go down.

    What is the solution?
    The other issue is that there are now low millions of people living in this country with strong connections back to their countries of origin, whether that is the subcontinent or many parts of Africa. They often want to bring spouses, parents and family members for education or otherwise. That base makes reducing immigration to 1980s levels almost impossible without taking the flack for splitting up families and cases that will generate considerable sympathy on an individual basis.

    I think that we have to accept that the consequence of past immigration is more immigration in future and recalibrate our expectations accordingly.
This discussion has been closed.